Belief Is Fortified by Reason
By Jack Hoehn
QUESTIONS:
- Are you quite sure that George W. Bush was once president of the USA?
- Can you still remember when Lance Armstrong won his 7th or 6th or 5th Tour de France bicycle race?
- Are you uncertain if Tiger Woods ever won the British Open?
- Do you know that there was a real football player called Jerry Rice and what position he played?
- Who is Kelly Clarkston and what first made her famous?
I’m just seeing if you can remember with clarity and some degree of certainty what happened during your lifetime, say 10 or more years ago. If I told you George W. Bush wasn’t the US president, or Lance Armstrong never won a bike race, or Tiger Woods never won a golf tournament, but this was all just propaganda by an advertising agency, could you believe me? Would you have any reason to doubt my claims? Would there be much problem in disputing some false or fictional story I made up claiming it happened 10 or 11 years ago as serious history during your lifetime? I don’t think so. We believe because we know something ourselves to be true, or we have enough credible witnesses to these events that we do not doubt the truth of certain statements.
History and Belief
So it is all the more amazing that when Saul of Tarsus becomes Saint Paul within 10 years of the events, no serious challenge to his proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth was made on the basis of historical inaccuracy.
That there was a Jesus of Nazareth, and a Pontius Pilate, and a crucifixion were not really questionable agenda items. And the criticism that this Jesus was “just a wandering Galilean prophet whose followers later made up divine myths about his death and resurrection long after his unfortunate end” can be easily challenged with just a little chronology.
- Jesus’ crucifixion – AD 30-33
- Saul’s conversion – AD 33-36
- First New Testament book – AD 50-53
The very first written Christian book we have copies of was not Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, but it was I Thessalonians written by Paul from Corinth about AD 50. In this first Christian document written within 20 years of the events, you find no cautious, partial, suggestive “might be” postulations about the event, but a fully matured proclamation of events still quite testable by living people’s memories.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, NIV -“You turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God
and to wait for his Son from heaven,
whom he raised from the dead—Jesus…”
1 Thessalonians 4:14, NIV – “We believe that Jesus died and rose again,
and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus all those who have fallen asleep in him.”
1 Thessalonians 5:10, NIV “He died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep,
we may live together with him.”
A non-believer (Tom Bissell) writes: “This is a frankly astounding thing to declare about someone who had died less than twenty years before… If Paul’s own testimony is accurate, he understood Jesus, a little over a decade after Jesus’s death, as the single-named entity ‘Christ,’ ‘the Son of God,’ and as one who ‘died and rose again’… Paul had already been all over Greece and Macedonia preaching this Jesus, and he included in his preaching an ominous promise that ‘the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night,’ which Paul believed would happen relatively soon. Where Paul picked up these ideas remains an open question—perhaps the open question.”[1]
Those who exclude the possibility of divinity of course remain puzzled. Those of us who are not restrained from that wonderful possibility will undoubtedly see great evidence that what Paul taught was not something he concocted, but something he had learned was in fact true, and worth living for and, if necessary, dying for.
As Paul later wrote to the Corinthians, “…if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith!”[2] “What I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”[3] And then he begins to call his living witnesses as evidentiary support: “He appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After then he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all to me also.”[4]
Closed or Open Science?
The circular reasoning that starts by saying that there is no extra-sensory reality (no gods, no angels, no creator, no design in the world) must deny the possibility of “singularities” that have no other good explanation. Instead of considering that there might be unique events outside of the usual and not explainable with strict materialism, they argue away the many evidences for the resurrection. And they do this not because there is not both remarkable and persuasive evidence for the resurrection, but because they refuse to consider that it even could have happened!
The Wikipedia article on Historicity of Jesus lists some of the evidence for Jesus of Nazareth that has made both believers and skeptics admit that such a man surely existed. They summarize: “While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness with very few exceptions, such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus, and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.”[5]
The evidence we have reviewed above confirms that belief in Jesus’ bodily resurrection was not a late doctrine made up years later by scheming monks, but appears full-blown within a decade or two of the events, well within the memory of those being evangelized. Things that had happened 10 years or less before were still current in the memories of the first hearers as things that happened 10 years ago are in your memories today.
Tom Bissell, quoted above, was raised a Roman Catholic and then left his church and belief in what he had been taught. But Bissell has retained not only interest but also rather clear insights into the faith he left behind. He rightly sees, “to be considered a Christian by most Christians you must accept that Jesus was the Messiah; that he rose from the dead; that he was, at the same time, both man and God, and that his death has immense cosmic significance.”[6]
He also lists what he considers historically ascertainable about the man. “Safe assumptions to make about the historical Jesus include his baptism by John, his large popular following, his reputation for miracle performance, his wont to speak parabolically, his preaching of a coming kingdom, his belief that he was somehow an envoy or prophet of God, and his familiarity with at least some Jewish scriptures. It also seems reasonable to assume that at some point in his career, Jesus attracted the notice of the Temple and Roman authorities and was condemned to death…”[7]
Now this is considerable skeptical support for a lot of the Jesus story we have had handed down to us through the Gospels. And he even admits that “the Jesus story, as a story, can be understood in a few ways. One way is to accept that it all happened…” Now there is a novel thought for the searcher: A good deal of the story can be authenticated even by disbelievers, so perhaps it might all or mostly be true?
The Laws of the Universe?
Skeptics, on the other hand, who have decided on other grounds that there is no God, and if there were he wouldn’t plan his salvation plan that way, because “this necessitates an additional acceptance that the known laws of the universe were put on hold during a brief period in first-century Palestine and the only people who noticed it were Christians.”[8]
Exactly.
But Christians by the thousands and now millions have recognized it. What real reason can you give, except bias, that rules out singularities?
One-in-a-million events happen. And if there is a law-giver, suspension of the “laws” he created or a unique application of those laws, is only impossible if you start your reasoning by ruling out the possibility of the Creator of those laws.
As Peter Hitchens reminds us, as a young atheist, “I likewise thought…that ‘science’ had fully explained the motions of the planets, the law of gravity, and the mysteries of time. Anything that had not yet been explained would no doubt soon be discovered. There were no mysteries. Because we could observe gravity in action, we somehow knew what it was. Nobody then mentioned that its operation, especially in empty space, simply cannot be explained… The use of the majestic word ‘laws’ curiously turned the mind away from speculation about whose laws they might conceivably be or why they might have been made.”[9]
The New Testament is not a pretty story book; its different books are not linked by narrative or writing style or literary succulence, in Greek or translations. But they are linked by all giving witness; they are testimony. The New Testament is a legal document; it is a series of witnesses who are testifying before the court of the world reasonable proof for the one unique singularity in the history of the universe.
For example John starts his gospel with these words: “There appeared a man named John….He came as a witness to testify to the light, that all might become believers through him.”[10] And he ends his gospel with: “It is this same disciple who attests to what has here been written. It is in fact he who wrote it, and we know that his testimony is true.”[11]
Jesus is said to have required this: “…there he was standing among them. Startled and terrified, they thought they were seeing a ghost… ‘This,’ he said, ‘is what is written: that the Messiah is to suffer death and to rise from the dead on the third day, and that in his name repentance bringing forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to all nations. Begin from Jerusalem; it is you who are the witnesses to it all.’ ”[12]
And we have already quoted above the extensive list of witnesses to the resurrected Christ that St. Paul presented to the Corinthians.
As Yorham Hazony argues: “Notice that this framework for understanding the New Testament is essentially juridic in character—that is, it relies on metaphors drawn from a court of law. Listen to these cadences: He came as a witness. He attests what has been here written. We know that his testimony is true. You will bear witness for me. I handed on to you the facts. We turn out to be lying witnesses…Even the very names given the Christian scriptures come from this same metaphor: The term testament derives from the Latin testari, which means ‘to serve as a witness’; and which scholars have associated with the Latin tres, three, and stare, to stand—that is from witnesses standing as a third party in litigation.”[13] Or as Hebrew scripture taught: “A fact must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.“[14]
Fear of Science?
There are believers who fear exposing their beloved Bibles to science and reason. They have a religious house build of very slender and narrow Bible cards that can be easily destroyed if one favorite card is pulled out or placed into a different position. So they fear that if you accept a scientific chronology for the age of the earth, based on the evidence of the many different “clocks” we find in nature,[15] you somehow can’t believe in the reality of a Noah and a flood that was as wide as Noah’s world (or a far as a dove could fly in one day looking for an olive branch)[16]. Or if you suggest God created a body for Jesus using natural mechanisms to accomplish his will that we can observe, you do away with the virgin birth or the bodily resurrection of Christ.
Faith Strengthened by Reason
On the other hand, acceptance that scientific study can help us understand the Bible, and that the Bible can help us understand science, is by no means a destruction in the belief of other singularities besides the six creation-events presented in Genesis. Close study shows that belief in the life (including the fact of his birth from a virgin, which is not a technical impossibility for modern breeders and geneticists) of Jesus, the attested-to death and burial of Jesus, and the thoroughly witnessed resurrection on the third day, is by no means a “leap in the dark” or an anti-scientific fantasy.
It just requires a recognition that visible, testable nature is only a part of the total reality of life. That there can be other dimensions, other realities, multiverses that we can think about and study the evidence for. Reason becomes a way we use to evaluate the testimony/witness of scripture, and to come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. Science can then expand faith, and faith becomes a partner with science opening scientists to a deepening understanding of life made possible by a reasonable faith. As Greg Boyd taught, “Faith must go beyond reason, but never against reason.”[17]
The believer who listens to science, and the scientist who listens to faith may have little problem in believing exactly as Bissell suggested, that there was indeed a brief time in first-century Palestine when all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually reversed. This is neither contrary to sound doctrine nor the open scientific mind.
And that evidence-based understanding makes all the difference in the world.
____________________
FOOTNOTES–
[1] Tom Bissell, Apostles: Travels Among the Tombs of the Twelve (New York: Random House – Pantheon Books, 2016), 267.
[2] 1 Corinthians 15:13-14, New International Version (NIV).
[3] 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, NIV.
[4] 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, NIV.
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
[6] Tom Bissell, Apostles: Travels Among the Tombs of the Twelve, p. 265.
[7] Tom Bissell, Apostles: Travels Among the Tombs of the Twelve, pp. 270-271.
[8] Tom Bissell, Apostles: Travels Among the Tombs of the Twelve, p. 271.
[9] Peter Hitchens, The Rage Against God (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 2010), 47.
[10] John 1:6, 7.
[11] John 21:24.
[12] Luke 24:36, 37, 46-48.
[13] Yoram Hazony, The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2012) 49-51.
[14] Deuteronomy 19:15.
[15] See Jack Hoehn, Atoday.org, 5 part series on Natural Clocks:
https://atoday.org/natural-clocks-part-1-tree-pollens/
https://atoday.org/natural-clocks-part-2-ash-clocks/
https://atoday.org/natural-clocks-part-3-dna/
https://atoday.org/natural-clocks-part-4-radioactive-clocks/
https://atoday.org/natural-clocks-part-5-clock-deniers/
[16] See Jack Hoehn, Atoday.org: https://atoday.org/does-noah-s-flood-explain-everything/
[17] https://reknew.org/2012/07/a-reknew-manifesto/
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS. COMMENTS HAVE BEEN NOW CLOSED TO THIS ARTICLE AS THEY HAVE DRIFTED FAR FROM THE ARTICLE INTO QUESTIONS NOT ADDRESSED IN THE ARTICLE. IF YOU HAVE PERSONAL COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ARTICLE YOU CAN ADDRESS THEM TO JACK HOEHN AT drhoehn@msn.com.
Having just read an article on the “Hoaxers”, a sizable portion here in the U.S. whose central principle is in calling such things as the Newtown school massacre as a wholesale hoax, that the U.S. has hidden the details of UFO’s and that many historically proven facts were all conspiracies to keep citizens in the dark. One needs only to watch the daily presidential race to see the birth AND belief in conspiracies.
Conflating facts with belief is a common fallacy, especially when people’s strong desires to believe are faced with actual, indisputable facts. History has shown us how the Black Plague was believed to be caused by Jews poisoning wells, that women were often witches, and more. Reading recent and ancient history should acquaint us with the common beliefs of past eras that were seen as facts. Thousands, probably millions believed all these things; but their beliefs did not make them facts in the retrospective examinations later.
In religion, “belief” and “faith” are more commonly used as evidence for beliefs. But we should use caution in using such terms as absolute, universal facts.
There is more certainty, probably that the NT stories are true than are the long ago Hebrew stories which have been fables mixed with facts. They need not be enumerated, but it is very unlikely that Solomon had thousands of chariots of gold.
Dr. Hoehn suggests, referring to a belief in a literal resurrection of Jesus that: “The believer who listens to science, and the scientist who listens to faith may have little problem in believing exactly as Bissell suggested, that there was indeed a brief time in first-century Palestine when all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually reversed. This is neither contrary to sound doctrine nor the open scientific mind.”
Two questions:
First, as Dr. Hoehn notes, Paul was the first individual to write about the resurrection of Jesus. It might be helpful to recall that his primary testimony was based on a visionary experience on the road to Damascus. It was not based on the evaluation of historical information.
What does this suggest about the nature of the origin of the resurrection narratives?
Second, if one reads carefully the stories that the synoptic gospels relate
concerning the events associated with the resurrection narratives, they are not consistent. This increases, not decreases, their veracity since it is obvious that some group did not get together to craft a story. On the other hand, if the “eye-witnesses” remembered what happened differently, to what degree can we today unpack the actual set of events with any confidence?
Something very odd did happen. The question is what exactly was the nature of the event. There are several possibilities. There is still the Jesus of history and the Christ of Faith
“There is still the Jesus of history and the Christ of Faith”
Ervin, what do you mean to say with this statement? Are you implying that the “Jesus of history” is not the One Who is also the “Christ of Faith”?
Could be. Is that a problem?
Ervin, the Gospels reveal Jesus the Messiah. Those who read, believe and are touched by God’s Spirit during this time have begun the journey which leads to eternal life with God the Father and Jesus His Son. This is the evidence, the inner testimony of God about His Son which confirms the Jesus of the Gospels is indeed the Christ Who comes to dwell within His people. Jesus is the Christ.
They are one in the same. History can only tell us a little about Jesus of Nazareth. Belief in the authority of scripture reveals much about Jesus who is called Christ. And it is not a problem unless you make it one.
The belief that the Jesus of history and the Christ of Faith is the same individual is a confessional faith statement (CFS). CFS-type statements (CFS) are usually not debatable–unless, of course, they make objective statement(s) about something that is supposed to have happened, be operating, or should/will happen in the physical world. Otherwise, what is there to debate? I would submit that there is nothing to debate if an individual makes a CFS which he/she says is only his/her opinion and is not meant as talking about an objective reality that others should/must accept.
.
Dr. Taylor,
Because the historical Jesus is such a thin man, we know historically almost nothing about him; not in a corroborated, historiographical way. He was a Jew. He came from Nazareth. His teachings inspired his followers and got Him crucified in Jerusalem. Shortly after being placed in a tomb he vacated it. No one seems to deny that. His followers thought he rose from the dead.
That is the sum total of the historical Jesus. If your historical Jesus has more substance you are fleshing him out with conjecture and speculation, Dan Brown as an extreme example – we might call any such expansion beyond the facts a CSF. If you believe the gospel accounts in whole or in part, you are doing the same thing believing uncorroborated evidence. Most importantly, everybody is talking about the same individual, the historical Jesus.
Now historically the Jews, aka Abraham’s seed, have been talking about God for a long, long time, telling themselves and anybody who will listen that God has chosen them and given them His law and they are waiting for the Messiah. You know, delivered them from Egypt. Gave them the promised land. Here is a historical context we can place the historical Jesus in. Perhaps we ought to try that.
Erv, That’s why I always defer to professions of faith. There is no basis for discussion when one expresses an opinion about belief.
“Paul (Ervin), you are insane. Too much study has made you crazy!”
Paul and his companion Luke, were not themselves eyewitnesses to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However they were directly acquainted with many others who were eyewitnesses, including Simon Peter, James the brother of Christ, John Mark and many others.
I have not met Tiger Woods or George Bush I or II, or many others who have done amazing and mundane things in my lifetime. But I am surrounded by a cloud of witnesses to these recent events and I believe them to be true.
Likewise for Paul and Luke.
Jim, you say “something happened [there at the tomb].” “And the disparity of accounts between the Gospels and Paul verify it” was resurrection.
I went birding yesterday on the shores of a lake and saw a mysterious churning area in the water. Something was happening there. Many people saw it. It was defiantly an angel. What else could it be?
I go there periodically and suspect the churning water will still be there. I may spend the day interviewing passersby to see if the “cloud of witnesses” will see what I do after I tell it was surely an angel.
See, we agree on methodology! Right?
Awesome professions of faith can’t fly properly in the same cargo hold as science without mutual distress and the menacing activation of the powerful right arm of science, verification. Quit tempting fate!
George Washington told them just before he died. “don’t entomb me for at least two days.” He didn’t want to be buried alive. Joseph Ellis says, ‘evidently Washington thought Jesus had been buried alive.’ I didn’t read the notes, I was listening to an audible book.
Bugs-Larry wrote:
“Jim, you say “something happened [there at the tomb].” “And the disparity of accounts between the Gospels and Paul verify it” was resurrection.”
Huh? I don’t think I wrote that?
Is there another Jim who commented here?
I totally do not understand your claim that we agree on methodology.
“I disagree with the the claim that science is not science unless it denies the existence of non-material realities.”
Just a small suggestion: Contemporary science does not deny the possibility of “non-material realities,” it simply states that it is not designed to examine the possible existence of “non-material realities.” By definition, the tools and methodology of modern science can deal only with materialistic realities.
By the say, from talking with people who work in both experimental and mathematical physics, I understand that there are a number who have serious reservations about the future of both string theory and the multiuniverse idea because there seems to be no way to design an experiment that can address a number of the assertions of these concepts. Thus the claim sometimes made in the popular media that both of these idea are not scientific.
Dr Taylor wrote:
“from talking with people who work in both experimental and mathematical physics, I understand that there are a number who have serious reservations about the future of both string theory and the multiuniverse idea because there seems to be no way to design an experiment that can address a number of the assertions of these concepts. Thus the claim sometimes made in the popular media that both of these idea are not scientific.”
I agree. Both “string theory” and the “multiverse” are not testable by any know method. So they are interesting speculation but not science.
Quantum Mechanics may be material reality, but is it logical? Reasonable? I’d say its disturbingly weird.
Most scientists will tell you that. If you think you understand it, you don ‘t
Erv,
People are natural “story tellers”, and the Bible is full of stories. From talking snakes and donkeys to Moses turning His staff into a snake. Cultures have ways of embedding profound truth within the “shell” of mythical descriptions.
For example: When Pharoah’s ministers “cast down their staff”, this refers to setting forth their beliefs, or arguments. Then Moses cast down His staff of belief, and the logic of His religion swallowed up that of Pharoah’s. Its a way of talking. Its also a way of separating those whose thinking is shallow from those with profound insight, and is still common in the Middle East.
When Mary described her recognition of Jesus at the empty tomb, the story indicates that at first she did not know it was Him. What is this really saying? That she sensed His “Presence”, even as believers sense His presence in: “When two or more gather and make mention of Me, there am I also.”
When Jesus “appeared” to the disciples, “He entered the room, not using the door.” What does this tell you? And He “appeared” to believers for some time before “ascending” into Heaven. But then note also that He said: “No man hath ascended to Heaven but He that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.”
So what are we being told to look for within the shell of these stories. Isn’t it much deeper than a physical resurrection, which defies the logic of a scientific mind? My belief is stronger…
“That there can be other dimensions, other realities, multiverses that we can think about and study the evidence for.”
I think most people, except for religious or scientific fundamentalist, would agree with the first part of your statement. There are certainly more to life and human existence than can be demonstrated in a scientific laboratory. But I disagree with you that it is possible to find (descriptive) “evidence” for a transcendent reality. Isn’t that an epistemic overreach on behalf of analytic reason? I think it is.
How can you expect to find evidence for transcendent entities or phenomena that we are not able “think about”? Isn’t that the illusion of metaphysics? How can one claim to be able to translate transcendence into immanent, descriptive, and coherent terms?
Isn’t that what the classical tradition of ‘strong’ metaphysical theologies has tried to, but failed to achieve?
The denial of the existence of non-material realities is not science, it is atheism. The key word is “denial”. However, science is unable to address or in any way study non-material realities, because it deals only with physical evidence. Before science can address an entity an existence proof of the entity must be provided. For example, if one can come up with a method of measuring an angel, that is provide an existence proof, then angels become a scientific topic. But until then angels exist as a Bible based religious belief, not a scientific belief. The problem with all Bible based beliefs is that they are circular. One believes in God because the bible tells about God, one believes the Bible because it is God inspired. Reason, logic tells me to reject circular reasoning. How does one get around the circularity of Bible belief? How does one establish an existence proof for God? The Bible itself makes a suggestion: creation, miracles and prophecy. These three can be summed up in one biblical statement, you are my witnesses it says. When SDA’s demonstrate that they are indeed new creations than God existence is established.
What do you do with rational, intelligent people who have seen and been helped by angels? Do you deny their experience? They can’t all be lying or hallucinating. The attitude out there makes it difficult to discuss or be taken seriously.
Paul,
“However, science is unable to address or in any way study non-material realities, because it deals only with physical evidence.”
I agree with your statement. I assert the future is a non-material reality. Statistical computer models which portend future events, climate events or stock/commodity price movements, are not science.
Science can tell us nothing about the man Jesus Christ because His physical body or physical remains are not here. It is history that tells us about His material reality, not science. It is also history, not logic, that tells us about the existence or non-existence of the God of Abraham. It is the material reality of the Jews and the law of Moses that, ‘get around the circularity of belief.’ Jesus of Nazareth’s material reality is not present, but the Jewish people and their Law and their land, the land of Israel, are all material reality. The Jews are historically unique; that uniqueness is evidence that their God exists.
William, you say,” It is history that tells us about His [Christs] material reality, not science. It is also history, not logic, that tells us about the existence or non-existence of the God of Abraham.”
History although it’s not science operates like science on the bases of evidence. What does history say about the existence of Christ? I point out that there is not a single non-biblical document from the early first century that makes a reference to Christ. Our knowledge of Christ comes from the Bible. The canonical Gospels exist as sequences of narrative and dramatic scenes, a natural way to tell the story of Jesus. What is surprising; however, are great differences among the stories. Consider the dying words of Jesus. According the Matthew and Mark, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” According to Luke, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” But according to John, “It is accomplished.” The reality is we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were. Again, according to Luke 24:51-52, Jesus ascends on the same day of his resurrection, but Acts explicitly states he did so 40 days later, Acts: 1:3. . When did the ascension occur? Again one must say I don’t know. Story after story can be addressed to show the differences. But the problem is much deeper. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional. Each Gospel writer may think he is telling us what the dying words of Jesus were, but the effort remains as pretense, a fiction. Cnt
Paul,
‘History although it’s not science operates like science on the bases of evidence.’ That sounds like a courtroom not a laboratory. I disagree; history isn’t like science at all. Historians do not conduct experiments. The historian makes judgments, based on evidence; the student of history agrees or disagrees.
I understand the gospels are uncorroborated historical evidence. It doesn’t mean they aren’t true. It just means we can’t and don’t know they are true. That is true for lots of history. Even recent history.
Elaine,
The real God is the God who revealed Himself to Abraham and chose Israel. There is evidence enough that the Jews are the chosen people of God. Emotional needs has nothing to do with it.
. The scenes recorded in the Gospels have a religious purpose disguised as a historical one. Their content is not about a historical Jesus, but about what certain first century writers wanted us to think about Jesus.
Consider the historical value of the Gospel of Mark. Look at the transitional tags between the stories. (from NEB) “when after some days” (2:1), “Once more” (2:12),” When” (2:15), “Once when” (2:18), “One Sabbbath” (2:23), “one another occasion” (3:1), “On another occasion” (4:1), “When he was alone” (4:10), “That day” (4:35), “He left that place” (6:1), On one of his teaching journeys” (6:6), “On another occasion” (7:14), “there was another occasion about this time” (8:1), “Jesus and his disciples set out” (8:27), “On leaving those parts” (10:1), “As he was starting out on a journey” (10:17). Mark is not a biography, it has no historical value and the outline of Jesus’ career is fictional. Marks Gospel says nothing about the birth of Jesus, has no meaningful chronology except at the very end, there is not Sermon on the Mount, no parables of the Prodigal son or Good Samaritan. . Mark has theological significance only. Keep in mind that Mark wrote some forty years after the Crucifixion. He had access to very little Accurate firsthand information. What he had is hearsay and that is not history.
Ppriest. History as we know it is a modern invention. Oral history didn’t have the inclination or capacity to correctly transcribe dialog, scenes, or to accurately recollect events. And there wasn’t the interest in precision (at least an ideal as there is now).The agenda of the ancients (perhaps not so different now) was to advance the myth, just as writers of Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have done.
For example, the conversations and events recorded in the gospels are manufactured from collected memories. The stories were told to enhance them and to create a certain response from listeners. Careful studies have shown transmission of fact are just as distorted by multiple witnesses through the ages as they are now.
Ppriest, you have only scratched the surface. Mr. Apostle Paul and the Gospels are chock full of countless disparities. (Paul had fifty, the gospels not so many post-resurrection witnesses, yes, I know, chaos is evidence of truth?). Hundreds of books are available as exposes. They have nothing to do with belief. Believe on believers. However, they have everything to do with uncomfortable facts for the faithful bound to imagining inerrancy of “Scriptures.”
The Gospels were written by educated Greek writers from a range of forty to sixty years after Christ died. The Gospels circulated in anonymity, unknown by their currently misapplied titles until around 190 AD, probably named by Irenaeus.
There is no universal and accepted belief in the God of the Bible. There have always been beliefs in a transcendent “other” and described and understand very differently by other cultures in world history.
To claim that only the God described by the Bible writers is the true god, is failure to recognize there have been many gods feared and worshiped around the world at different times and by many cultures.
Humans have always created their gods and devised ways to worship him, sacrifices required (often human), and built great monuments in his name. The question moderns ask: Who is the real God?
How is that answered by humans around the world, and what evidence can be given for their answers that are other than totally subjective and often arising from emotional needs that suffices as their “evidence.”
Very well expressed, Birthday lady! ( However, I think you might have an addiction problem! To Birthdays!, Now 92? Sorry, no rehab for that! A party will do as a substitute!
History has been manipulated by ideology as much as religion is through belief.; and, for that matter, so has science, through funding. We all base our lives on partial truths.
How does believing, against all odds, that Jesus walked on water, give us a ticket to eternal life? And why do we constantly try to twist science beyond recognition to verify our beliefs? “Faith” and “belief” are two different things.
The Jews worshiped in a faithless religion. The word “faith” as it reads in the New Testament, is not found in the OT. Their loyalty was based on obedience. Jesus came to introduce faith, not as belief, but as trust. When we recognize our face in its reflection in a puddle, we are experiencing a miracle. If faith does not flow from that, we are spiritually dead. Jesus did not come to make better Jews. He came to give Spirit to a lump of clay.
Sirje, Jews and “God” allegedly arranged a tit for tat, relationship. Kind of like a Union Contract. “Do your God-job thing and I’ll see that you are taken care of, with protection from the non-union thugs.
It was an agreement. a pact, a contract, a covenant. Hapless Jews agreed to what they could never do, and God continually teased them with Pie in the Sky Bye and Bye, that became ovens, pogroms, lost tribes and invasions. But it ended kind of well. As a culture they are reputed to have brains and money management skills par excellence! No, that isn’t ante-Semitic. Just a traceable talent history. Does that make them special with a helping hand from a no-show God? No. just inveterate survivors.
William Abbot is tunneling with the spiders looking under the Scriptural rugs certain he will locate Jesus tracks where he has never been! He verifies your statement, with my addendum:. “And why we do we constantly try to “twist science [and religion] beyond recognition to verify our beliefs?
The Israelites new nothing about “faith.”
“knew” nothing about faith!
Sir Gee,
“The Jews worshiped in a faithless religion.” Read the Psalms. Explain why Jesus’ message of faith and obedience resonated with so many Jews. The son of David’s story and David’s story itself are stories about believing. Job’s tale and most of all Abraham’s story are about faith underlying & viviating obedience.
The Passover is a story without faith? Sir Gee you have to walk back you assertion about faithless Jews & their religion.
William, I think you are on your journey for conversion to Judaism! Bad news, however, when you get there you’l find God, the Covenant Breaker, absent there, just as he always has been.
Some Jew called Christianity, ‘Judaism for Gentiles.’ That’s close enough for me. I wasn’t chosen to shoulder the burden of Torah. But Torah gets my vote as an unambiguously good thing. I see it as the source, root and foundation of all true law. This world’s misery increases the farther it gets away from the Law of God.
I just think if you want to discuss the historical Jesus, the real Jesus who lived and died and probably rose again, your discussion is poorly informed if it isn’t steeped in the religion of the Jews.
There is all kinds of “faithfulness” in the OT but only one verse (Hab 2:4) that’s translated FAITH, but even there, it’s read faithfulness. The religion, itself, is based on blessings and curses administered by God on the actions of the individual or the nation. While “faithfulness” is defined as “loyalty”, the faith, used by Paul requires a spiritual component, which takes us into a different territory.
Paul’s looks backwards to validate his spiritual component: For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Romans 4
Abraham is the father of the faithful.
Bill A Bott,
Of course Paul wasn’t going to reference Sanskrit or the folklore of the Native Americans since he was a Jew, living among other Jews- with a Jewish cultural and religious history. The book of Thessalonians (or the book of Matthew as it appears in the Bible) doesn’t pick up where Malachi left off. The NT is not Part II of the OT, contrary what your Jewish friend says. Of course the first Christians were Jews because that’s where Jesus lived. I thought Paul dealt with all that when he had to deal with Peter.
BTW- I’m not a “sir” anything – not even by pronunciation.
Sirje,
I apologize. In haste I assumed you were Dr. Serge Agafonoff, who frequently posts here. I had no reason to assume that. I am not only sorry, I am embarrassed. My bad.
Jesus Christ was, is, and ever shall be, the King of Israel. As he himself said: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. So I disagree, the New Testament is part of the Jewish story. Paul had a lot more than Jewish folklore, culture and history to draw from – he had Torah. Paul was a brilliant Torah Scholar. We should be thankful he could exposit so clearly the Scriptural basis of Jesus Christ’s words: ” I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
But the purpose I serve with my comments, consistent with Dr. Hoehn’s point about proof, is the historical, material reality of the Jews. Now and in antiquity, is their delieverance from Egypt, their land, law, nation and Messiah that gives the world proof that the one God, the God of Abraham, has chosen Israel. The physical reality of Israel is our best evidence for God.
No problem Bill. I do agree with what you say about the linkage between Jesus and the OT; but much of the language of religion doesn’t automatically correlate between the OT and the NT. Faith, as it’s best articulated by Paul, doesn’t appear to have the same definition in both.
“29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.” Rom. 3.
Sirje, you are right in that you say Faith “doesn’t appear to have the same definition in both” the OT and NT. I understand that the OT Faith is based on ‘believing” that which God said, namely to Abraham. But the NT, as the Scripture passages quoted earlier show, declare Faith to be a “gift” from God. Therefore Paul defines the two Faiths using the word “by” and “through” Faith. “Through faith” is none other than Jesus’ Faith—our Gift from God.
Is not “Faith” a spiritual gift?
The English Bibles translate “faith in Jesus”. But the Greek word used is “of”, that is, “faith of Jesus”. Or, the faith we have is from Jesus—His faith. Having faith “in” Jesus could imply we have built this faith, or belief in Him by knowing about Him but not really knowing Him. Eph. 2:8 clearly states: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”. The “Gift” is the “Faith of Jesus”, His Faith in us. “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit”; “for one is given the word of wisdom through the same Spirit,…to another faith by the same Spirit” 1 Cor.12:4-11. He [Jesus] is the “Author and finisher of our Faith”. Heb. 12:2. The woman with the issue of blood believed that her healing would come from Jesus and therefore touched His garment; and Jesus said to her, “your faith has made you whole” Matt. 9:22. She believed Jesus could heal her because she saw His miraculous works. The apostles said to Jesus, “Increase our faith”. Luke 17:5. Jesus does this by working miracles within our hearts and lives.
Cont.
Continued
In the following verses it states “faith came” and, “after faith has come”: “22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith [of] Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” Gal. 3:22-25. “One Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:4-6. Jesus said “And you hold fast to My Name, and did not deny My faith..” Rev. 2:13; “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” Rev.14:12.
So “Belief is fortified by Reason” in that we see Christ working in our hearts and throughout our lives, which builds our “trust” in Him; just as a child trusts their parents to help/support them when they are in need. And because He lives in us, through the Spirit (John 14:23), we have the “faith of Jesus”—His Faith; which is also the power of the resurrection.
“Faith is the evidence of things not seen.” Heb. 11 ” For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Ephesians 2:8
For some people, call them doubting Thomas’, faith isn’t enough. They want to stick there hand and fingers in Jesus’ wounds before they will believe. To those people, the Dr. Taylors and Larry Boshells, who insist material reality is all they can consider. Our testimony about faith is inadmissible evidence in their court.
To those I say, behold the Jews! How do you explain them, their history, their Torah, their endurance? They are truly unique. Surely there is a God in Israel. Look at how they are hated. How do you explain that?
“To those I say, behold the Jews!”
Yes, William, there is no denying that “salvation is through the Jews”, because to them God gave His Laws, which are “our tutors to bring us to Christ”. How could anyone realize their sinfulness unless the Law pointed this out?
“they fear that if you accept a scientific chronology for the age of the earth, based on the evidence of the many different “clocks” we find in nature,[15] you somehow can’t believe in the reality of a Noah and a flood that was as wide as Noah’s world (or a far as a dove could fly in one day looking for an olive branch)”
Your skepticism is showing through. The so-called “age of the earth” cannot be proven, since the assumptions necessary to arrive at such an age, are just that, assumptions, assumptions which cannot be verified or even tested. The evidence for a world wide flood is abundant, except for those who do not wish to see it.
Groucho, if you are really committed to truth and want to know the chronology of the earth and a world wide flood, read the THE BIBLE ROCKS AND TIME by Davis A. Young and Ralph F. Stearly. Both men are Christian geologist. Read the book and base your decision upon the geological evidence they present.
William, you say that, “the physical reality of Israel is our best evidence for God.” That statement may work for you because you have a lot of background theology. But it doesn’t work for someone without that background. Take the Bible out of the argument and the Jews or Israel become on different than any other ethnic group. Your argument is based upon your belief in the Bible. But for a person without that belief your argument is mean less. What evidence for God would you present to a person who doesn’t believe the Bible?
Paul,
As a student of secular history I assert the Jews are unique and entirely different. Surely my faith has whetted my interest, but I am not making a SCF, or whatever it is Erv calls a confession of faith.
Let’s imagine Moses and the exodus are a myth. Israel is no less unique. It is a myth like no other. Moses is an unlikely heroic figure. The hero slow of speech; the unking, the unwarrior. Wanderers in the wilderness for forty years. There are ancient law codes but they deal with property concepts and forbearance. Talk about equality? No man is above the law of Moses. All the ancient law codes allowed a husband to forgive his adulterous wife if he chose. Moses says, ‘stone them both’. No forbearance. The other ancient law codes have capital property crimes, not Moses, restitution is Mosaic. Moses reserves capital crime for murder (and picking up sticks on Sabbath). How could anybody make that up?!
And the Jews are still at it. What other people cling to their ancestral law code? Let alone have it more or less adopted by all the nations?
You have to believe in the Jews. They are material reality. They alone endure from ancient times. How is it they have possession of their ancestral lands? There is no plausible historical explanation.
My argument if far from meaningless for unbelievers. Any student of history will understand me.
OK William, enjoy what you will about Moses and his lineage. I identified (long ago) a couple of Christian dialog operative principles that allow function on your behalf.
First, you choose what you like. And you opt to ignore the rest, especially useless facts, that is, those that contradict or otherwise defeat your premise.
Second, you act as if something is true even if you don’t know if it is, especially useful for when truth can’t be actually determined, normal in religious discourse. This functions widely and well for most tenets and dogmas.
And one addendum in regard to the Jews. God never kept his promise in any way, shape, or form to them. Waste no admiration on him!
I find it curious how some here dismiss the “historical Jesus” because most of what has been written about Him comes from the pens of people who had a stake in the action – three Gospel writers were eyewitnesses and the fourth had access to eyewitnesses. So we have a combination of first- and second-hand accounts which agree on the basics but differ on some of the particulars.
Over three millennia ago, a major battle was fought between the Egyptians and the Hittites at Qodesh (aka Qadesh and Kadesh). There are two surviving accounts – one carved in the Temple of Ra-meses as Abu Simbel, the other in Hittite cuneiform tablets. They have very different takes on what actually happened, but they agree on the basics of the battle.
I submit that we know far more about the “historical Jesus” than about the Battle of Qodesh. But secular-minded “historians” generally agree that the Battle of Qodesh occurred, while claiming ignorance regarding the “historical Jesus”.
Don’t tell me this is because of “supernatural” claims in the narratives regarding Jesus. There are also “supernatural” claims in the narratives regarding the Battle of Qodesh.
(continued)
If you endorse a fiat declaration against the Bible as an historical narrative, you are willfully ignorant about much of the history of the “holy Land” and its environs. And until a century or two ago, you would have denied the existence of the Hittites because they were only mentioned in the Bible but not in “secular history”, until hieroglyphics and cuneiform were deciphered.
Jim,
I don’t dismiss the “Historical Jesus.” What we must mean when we talk about the ‘historical Jesus’ is what we can apprehend or know about the man using historical methods.
We know how the baby named, Hiram Ulysses Grant, the son of Jesse Grant, became Ulysses S. Grant. We know because of documents. The letters, the correspondence, the military documents of record. We know of no documents that support Parson Weems assertion that George Washington chopped down the cherry tree and didn’t lie about it, so we don’t have any historical basis to believe that tale.
Almost everything we know about Jesus is from the gospels and the gospels are uncorroborated by documentary evidence. That doesn’t mean they aren’t true stories. It does mean they aren’t history. I do believe the historical evidence indicates resurrection. But it is not historically conclusive. Historically, it is conclusive something happened following the death of Jesus: his dead corpse disappeared. That is what the documentary evidence says. That is what the Jews have always said, his disciples stole the body. There are extra-biblical sources for that one. Everybody thought something or someone ‘disappeared’ Jesus’ body from the tomb.
Unlike science, history can’t repeat the experiment. We have to go with the evidence we have before us: Historical knowledge is always tentative, subject to revision and cognizant of the possibility new ‘documents’ will come to light.
Have you considered how many writers in the NT wrote extensively of Jesus? The synoptic gospel writers, also Paul, Peter, James, and Jude. Not only revealing similar
knowledge, gained by personally being involved with Jesus and or hearing those who were with Jesus. And several endured pain, suffering, hardship, imprisonment, and death, after a life devoted to this man they called the Son of God, faithful to their calling. How is it that One had such charismatic power to draw such a motley group of men, that just by being in His presence, they received the power to dedicate their lives to His calling, filled with the power of the Holy Spirit? They obviously were inspired by the Holy Christ. And they themselves were in essence living miracles, that because of their devotion, are responsible for approx. 2 billion souls alive on Earth today, that by Faith, claim the Grace of the Lord Jesus, the Christ, the King of Kings, the I AM THAT I AM,our ALMIGHTY ONE.
Jim, the question of the historical Jesus is, Who was he? The role assigned to him over two thousand years of speculation isn’t congruent with how apparently he saw himself. If a blank mind were to read the Synoptics he wouldn’t arrive at the same conclusion as if he only read John. Or if he only read Paul, he would have a selection of divergent salvation propositions on which to salivate but would learn little about the person of Jesus including the virgin birth.
Because religious belief functions through the operation of two principles, 1. you choose what you like, and 2. you act as if what you like is true, Jesus isn’t the same for everyone.
By means of fifteen hundred years of cajole, coercion, controversy and conviction there is human consensus in the Christian body due to the efforts of Catholicism. To what degree does it in any way reflect the man Christ and his teachings? The doctrines the trinity and transubstantiation are a fine examples of the of the entire process of making something from nothing.
How did disappointed Aramaic speaking fishermen, likely illiterate, write Gospels in educated Greek? Even the Synoptics don’t credit whom you do. They were circulated unanimously, for around one hundred years before they were named probably by Irenaeus.
Your Hittite example demonstrates nothing useful. A photon doesn’t light, or enlighten, much.
Jim, you can’t force “facts” to support your view of Jesus. Believe, that’s enough.
Bugs,
It is the Jewishness of the gospels that is historical and corroborated. Look at how totally grounded the gospels are in the Jewish scriptures. The history of Catholicism is another matter.
Do you really think Luke was written by someone other than Luke? I mean seriously, why would you say Irenaeus probably named them? The naming of Luke is internally consistent with the Luke who was Paul’s companion, its style is consistent with Acts, also written by Luke. Why would you assert we don’t know who wrote Luke?
In spite of your certainty about Luke’s identity, Luke probably wasn’t an actual name of a writer. Remember, his wasn’t an eyewitness account (there weren’t any). And about 54% of Luke is borrowed from Mark. It and Matthew share nearly 100 verses from the likely “Q” source. The name “Luke” is the name of a healing god Lykos, from mythology, the probable source of him thought to be Paul’s physician. Acts is riddled with mistakes not likely made by an intimate friend of Paul.
William, I know that none of that matters to you. I was just suggesting when you publicly leave the reservation in search of affirmative foot prints, you do so at the peril of overwhelming haboobs of contrary data. So, don’t go there!
There are many more problems than answers awaiting you in the storm. Best for you to believe what you will buttressed by your favored opinions.
And the identity of the unknown authors of Matthew and Mark and John is just as murky as ever, unattributed until about 190 CE. The books were certainly known before then, like many others, just didn’t have titles.
Bugs,
Acts is riddled with mistakes? How’s that? Who do you suppose wrote Acts? The same fellow who wrote “Luke?” Even though Luke says it was written by Luke, (I realize the other gospels are not so direct) you choose to believe “Luke” was lying? Irenaeus just made that up and stuck it in there? Did Irenaeus fudge the intro to Acts of the Apostles too?
Isn’t it easier to reason Luke, not ‘Q’ wrote both the gospel and the acts? Where is the evidence the Luke of 2 Tim 4 didn’t write them both?
William, there are plenty of books that discuss the thorny issues of Luke and Acts. Google will help you find some. We have passed the point of no good return, so I am passing you off to your own study.
Bugs,
But Jim wants to believe the truth. He doesn’t want to merely believe. Mere belief is never enough. Who wants to believe a lie?
What do you want to bet the gospels are full of true facts? Truth is the only thing worth believing in: Can we know the gospels are accounts of true facts? Probably not. Why should believe they are fabrications? Where is the evidence, they were made up stories? As Dr. Hoehn thinks, it is reasonable to believe they are true accounts, even if they are not historical accounts.
The Jesus portrayed in the gospels would be offended if his disciples made up stories about him. I don’t think they had much incentives to make stuff up. It seems to me the truth about Jesus was so unbelievable his disciples couldn’t make up stories more unbelievable. Whats walking on water, compared with rising from the dead and predicting it beforehand?
Earlier I wrote, “the gospels are not history” What I ought to have written is, “The gospels are not histories.”
Here is an assignment for you: Using reason and logic, explain the incentives for inventing the Moses story. How will you account for his totally unique status as the leader of the weirdest, most bizarre, slave rebellion of all time? How could somebody make up Moses? The men and gods in Greek mythology are easier to believe in than Moses. Tell me the story of Moses and his will to rule and his struggle for status and power.
William, it is likely the gospels are “full of pure facts.” Regardless, you act as if they are. Faith is the amalgam of fact and myth between which there are no clear boundaries. There certainly wasn’t in Christ’s time. So, why go there? You can’t prove anything. You can only believe it. Isn’t that good enough?
It’s not likely the New Testament stories are made up in the sense you fear. They are neither history or histories. They represent a way of seeing entirely different than us. God’s as humans, human’s as gods, both transitioning for one to another, a panoply’s of gods and their fluid pecking orders, were all means of trying to cope peacefully in the world. Contributing to the happiness of the gods was the best way to achieve that. The mythical nature of deities was widely acknowledge. People then wouldn’t have a clue what “facts,” “history,” or “accuracy,” was about.
Neither Christian nor pagan stories promoting belief were handicapped by labels of being true or false. Resurrection stories, gods morphing into humans, virgin births were part of the not-given-a-second-though-mythology of the day. Words weren’t an ethical conveyance in the religious realm they are now. In other words, people lived by myth. Yes, Christians, too, as do all the world religions today.
Motives for deception? Not many. The magic of deities, their talents, machinations, stranger than fiction, couldn’t be improved by lies. Christ is a good example.
Bugs-Larry,
So did the Battle of Qodesh/Qadesh/Kadesh, between the Egyptians and the Hittites, actually happen? If you read the Egyptian version you get a rather different impression of the course of the battle, than if you read the Hittite version. Which version do you believe, or do you disbelieve both versions because they disagree on many (but not all) details?
Wikipedia calls it “the best documented battle in all of ancient history” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh), yet each side claims their gods helped then gain the victory over the other side.
Arguably the life of Jesus is as well or better documented than the Battle of Qodesh.
By your standards of epistemology this battle is nothing but human fantasy. And if this is indeed “the best documented battle in all of ancient history” as Wikipedia claims, then we know very little, if anything, about any other ancient battles.
I am asking you to be consistent in how you evaluate historical sources. Is that too much to ask of you?
I failed to mention that the Wikipedia article goes with the Egyptian version of the battle, and dismisses the Hittite version with a hand-wave. Whereas the Hittites claim they smashed two of Pharaoh Ra-meses’ three columns and nearly captured him. Whereupon the surviving Egyptians beat a hasty retreat and did not attack the Hittites again for a Very Long Time. And thereafter Ra-meses built monumental temples at Abu Simbel to brag about how his gods granted him great success in his campaigns in the Levant, and conveniently overlooks the loss of perhaps 2/3 of his army to the Hittites.
Not nearly as bad a “shellacking” as the Romans got at Teutoburg Forest, where very few escaped, whereafter Rome foreswore further campaigns East of the Rhine in Germania; more akin to the Roman-Parthian War, whereafter Rome foreswore further campaigns against the Parthians.
Sort of like the Gospels being the primary narrative of Jesus, with the few extra-Biblical references (eg Josephus) being largely ignored. If you only accept what Josephus says you will know very little about what happened.
Of course no modern politicians build monuments and spew forth other “spin” on their losses. When will we build an Iraq War Memorial?
Jack, your methodology is your framework to a profession of faith. In that reference frame one can sit with friends (or acquaintances) for coffee at Starbucks for a good time of human interchange. Napkins for notes wouldn’t useful or necessary, since faith is personal, an intimate portion of one’s soul (several of which I have injured in the past! Sorry! Probably will later, too.)
I love the “give and take” on this forum. I see it as great place for the challenge and interchange of thoughts and ideas. When it comes to faith I honor with respect believers conclusions. So, I would treasure moments I that I might sit with anyone who is a reader or commentator herein and have a jolly good time of communion. With you, too, Jack! Oh, and I have a bump on my arm I would like you to look at! (I’m pretty sure you aren’t a “bump” doctor, but I don’t know for sure).
Your contributions are always provocative. Thanks!
Larry, you are intuitive. I am the son of a Dermatologist, and in my mission service we also ran a Leprosy Hospital. So even though I am board certified as a Family Physician to do the everything a Jungle Doctor had to do in rural African SDA Mission Hospitals, the skin and its “bumps” are my field of special interest. I do skin surgery almost every day in my practice. I’d love to do a biopsy, shave excision, cryodestruction, or full thickness skin excision any time! But Erv is right, you’d have to call for an appointment! And don’t ignore little bumps, some of then can be very dangerous if not removed in a timely manner. At least ask your primary care physician to check it for you and send you to a dermatologist if any question for a bumpectomy!
(Dr. John B. Hoehn, Adventist Health Medical Group — (509) 522-0100, Walla Walla, WA)
Bugs: Dr. Hoehn is a distinguished member of the medical profession and thus might be in a position to help you with your “bump.” However, I think I recall my son telling me (he’s a ER physician) that professional medical ethics prohibits making diagnosis for a new patient without seeing the patient in person except under emergencies conditions. I hope your “bump” is not a medical emergency.
My wife diagnosed me. She suggested a headectomy. I’m gona git another opinion!
Erv, I know you and your son speak the truth about ethical impediment to Jack’s assistance, not to mention the danger of unbridled liabilities and such. As a hospital chaplain for four years, ethics enlightenment was attempted on me.
However, I once surreptitiously traded my expertise about the nature of the immortal soul for an aspirin from a head ICU nurse. It was a sworn secret, never compromised!
And yes, my wife is critical of my inability to differ between an arm bump and my shoulder bump!
Larry. i have a nodule on my left arm radius, at the very bottom next to the carpals, about half the size of a golf ball. It appears to be bony with a flexible outer covering.
It has never been a problem, but its a great conversation starter as many ask what it is. Its proven to be a real benefit. Don’t hide your bump, as it may prove beneficial to
your social success too. Make sure it is always uncovered so as to be easily seen. As to the bump on your head, ask your wife if she knows how you got it. If you truly wish to be rid of it, go to your special refreshment center, the Fields of Ambrosia, make a potion of the radiant floral flowers, and apply it to your bump, guaranteed to make you a more beautiful creature, to enrich your exquisite prose delivery.
Your proposal caused me to restudy with renewed interest the Thursday theory of creation (last Thursday). Tricky god could do that, you know. Fool us about history, about how old we really are, along with all the stuff around us.
Earl, mine is actually a small ganglia. Diagnosed twenty years ago, harmless to me, the Doc told me. Sounds like your bump is equivalent to a Teutonic scar, a prideful macho mark! Mine isn’t easily visible under my arm, so display pride is less of a temptation!
Seems I am always apologizing! So I’m good at it! Sorry, Earl, I write on another program, copy and paste, and I accidentally posted William Abbotts partial post, already sent to him. Sorry to you both!
It just seems that if we are to believe “there was indeed a brief time in first-century Palestine when all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually reversed,” then we ought, if not must, also believe that all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually deferred for the purpose the creation of our world as we know it, and of mankind—since this all comes from the same source material.
That’s a novel thought, Stephen? Did space time take a time out? Gravity? The four forces? The cessation of any of these even for an instance would probably destroy the universe. Hamstra could enlighten about effect of this fantasy
Like I said to William Abbott, you don’t need to go on these mental expeditions in defiance of reality. Just trust your understanding of your faith. It is all you need. Save you from wandering around with what with what appears to be a pointy cap.
I understand Bugs. It doesn’t make sense from your perspective.
But for those who actually believe that “there was indeed a brief time in first-century Palestine when all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually reversed,” they know what I’m saying; that if you believe this, then you should believe that all the known laws of the universe were not just put on hold but actually deferred or delayed for the purpose of the creation of our world as we know it, and that of mankind, as it is described in the Bible.
It’s not a novel concept.
He could admit his mistake. Two wretched people flummoxed poor god. If he can choose which physical laws to fiddle for a time out, why wouldn’t God reverse time back to the Garden of Eden, then euthanize those idiots, Adam and Eve. Or he could practice some other form of birth control and get things back to perfect. Then he could be the good cop and erase all the suffering at least ninety five billion people have experienced from first time. Or, just start over and leave the deceased miserable souls peacefully dead? Or maybe he enjoys watching suffering.
See, Stephen, I have my own dream castle! Sorry, it’s better than yours :—————–)
Your proposal caused me to restudy with renewed interest the Thursday theory of creation (last Thursday). Tricky god could do that, you know. Fool us about history, about how old we really are, along with all the stuff around us.
To assume that the Judeo-Christian writers were not story tellers would set them apart from every diverse culture on the planet. Every culture has its myths and exaggerations. There is good reason for such stories, but they are not all literal. They have moral weight, even if not scientific weight.
“Every religion which is not in accordance with established science is superstition. Religion must be reasonable. If it does not square with reason, it is superstition and without foundation. It is like a mirage, which deceives man by leading him to think it is a body of water. God has endowed man with reason that he may perceive what is true. If we insist that such and such a subject is not to be reasoned out and tested according to the established logical modes of the intellect, what is the use of the reason which God has given man?”
. . from the writings of Abdul Baha
“Every religion which is not in accordance with established science is superstition.”:
Every religion based on materialism denies the invisible God.
“If we insist that such and such a subject is not to be reasoned out and tested according to the established logical modes of the intellect, what is the use of the reason which God has given man?”:
The “established logical modes of the intellect” have been so far removed from the mind and way of God, leaving man hopelessly lost, wondering in the wilderness of their minds.
Religious leaders such as Gandhi; Muhammad; Dalai Lama; Bab and Baha, all of which are antichrist in nature and deceptively lead people away from Jesus Who is the Christ, the only way to God the Father.
DD Very gracious of you, friend. Remember that it was the Scribes and Pharisees, with all of their elite knowledge, who attacked the blessed Lord Jesus and ultimately had Him crucified, while a simple fisherman named Peter recognized his Lord.
I thank God for the mind he gave me and truly believe that He intended each one of us to independently investigate truth for ourselves, and not simply believe fish stories. My father taught me how to fish, but also how to speak the truth without relying upon insulting those whose understanding was different than mine.
My Lakota Sioux friends back home were severely persecuted for holding to their own Great Spirit given beliefs. My mother taught in one of those schools back on the Yankton Sioux Reservation.
My wife’s aunt and little cousins were imprisoned in Iran for refusing to recant their Baha’i beliefs, even in the face of very real threats of killing her children as a means to murder her husband and other Baha’i leaders.
Daniel’s great vision of 1844 took place in Shushan, Elam, which is southwestern Iran. Interesting to note that the year 1260 of the Muslim calendar is 1844 and that that is the year ONE of the Baha’i Era.
The hate over there takes another form than words.
Thank you, my friend, for speaking what is in your heart.
Thank you to all my many Adventist friends for so much love an hospitality which I have enjoyed for many years and in many churches.
May the love of Jesus be in you.
Dale, keep this in mind, “my friend”: “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.” –Jesus.
The Gospel of Christ has spread throughout the world and 2000 years latter people still reject the Savior of the world. Why? Is it because the “simplicity of Christ” doesn’t appeal to their “intellect”? Or does man love to investigate truth, peace, love and justice without Christ?
I sense your heartfelt despair, Dale, but my response is the same to anyone who proclaims another Gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And because of this I am branded a Pharisee by both you and Dr Taylor?
I asked someone else on another thread, in relation to the Bahai religion: where does Christ come into all their beliefs? No response. Because the simple answer is: He doesn’t.
Daniel’s great vision had nothing to do with 1844. 1844 has been a concoction derived from the pit of destruction and believed by desperate people throughout the world seeking answers, from historical world events, in fulfillment of Biblical prophecies. Bible Prophecies have always been manipulated by self-willed individuals, desiring recognition for their so-called great insights and wisdom. So where does this leave the Muslims’ and the Bahai’s claims, regarding 1260/1844/year one? A deception, no doubt; believed by individuals who don’t know their Bibles. How sad!
If you bring another Gospel, are you not speaking what is in your heart?
DD I noted this comment you made above; DD has said “I asked someone else on another thread, in relation to the Bahai religion: where does Christ come into all their beliefs? No response. Because the simple answer is: He doesn’t”.
It must be noted this is not correct as a Baha’i has Christ in His heart. A Baha’i, when they accept Baha’u’llah also see this as accepting the Son in the Glory of the Father.
Love and acceptance of Jesus Christ is thus a unshakable foundation to belief in Baha’u’llah, the Bible is the door to the Father.
Hope that helps in the future.
Regards Tony
Well, well, I see that “DD” thinks Christianity (and I suspect especially the Adventist version) has a monopoly on Truth and every other religious system leads away from Truth. Sad.
At least “DD” does not hide his religious arrogance under a cover of pious words. He is out front about his Pharisee-inspired religiosity.
There is little we can do for such individuals except feel sorry for them and hope that someone they know can lead them back to the Truth.
“There is little we can do for such individuals except feel sorry for them and hope that someone they know can lead them back to the Truth.”
Ervin, you speak of “truth” as though you know all about it. So, why don’t you “lead” me back to this “truth” you so confidently acknowledge? I’ll be waiting for your reply.
Actually, I did misspeak. I should have said “your Truth” since no human being knows “The [Ultimate] Truth.” Sorry about that.
Erv,
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Sounds like the King of Israel has granted Himself a monopoly on truth.
Professor, does that make you sad?
Actually, Ervin, you mentioned the “Truth”, I didn’t. So why haven’t you answered my question?
Secondly, humans do know the “Ultimate” Truth, His name is Jesus the Christ of Nazareth. But you seem to think He is beyond the reach of any human, and you are right–only for those who do not have His Spirit within them.
With respect: “Dream on and on . . . . and on . . . . . . . . and on . . .”
A good article, Jack.
Tonyfish58 wrote on October 23, 2016 at 2:15 am:
“It must be noted this is not correct as a Baha’i has Christ in His heart. A Baha’i, when they accept Baha’u’llah also see this as accepting the Son in the Glory of the Father.”
Here is a portion of the Bahai faith statement:
“The Founder of the Baha’i Faith, Baha’u’llah (1817-92), said that throughout history God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, whose teachings guide and educate us and provide the basis for the advancement of human society.
These Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Their religions come from the same divine source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God.
Baha’u’llah proclaimed that He was the latest of these Messengers and that He brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time.”
So now we have NEW “spiritual teachings”?
And Jesus is only regarded as one of the “divine messengers”?
I still can’t see where the Bahai’s teach that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world? Am I missing something? Show me were they say Jesus is the Christ?
DD As Paul says in Corinthians, “No man can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
The Station of Jesus the Christ is testified to by the very Words of Baha’i Sacred Text.
. “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence 86 exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified…
We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah XXXVI
Thank you, Dale, for that insightful passage from one, of untold millions, who have come to know Christ through the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
But I’m still a Pharisee?
DD I honor your Faith in Christ. I was raised Christian myself. Happened to be a Methodist Church around the corner, but I’ve attended various churches, including several Adventist. What fascinates me about Adventism is the numbers.
Scholars still add them up, as Miller did, and still insist they make sense. So what happened? E.G. White says something happened in heaven… But the Baha’is say something happened on earth. And the repercussions are still going on throughout the Middle East, and to make sense of it, a re-examination of “the numbers” helps, starting with the 1260 figure.
Google, just for the hell of it, a Muslim Christian Calendar Converter and type in May 23, 1844. Well you get 1260 AH, and guess what. Its not a coincidence.
I know there’s a popular hypothesis that the number 1260 ends in 1798, but its really speculation, and totally disregards the appearance of Islam in the world, their calendar, and the Baha’i calendar.
I didn’t intend on labeling you a Pharisee, but when people “know it all”, there is a parallel to be drawn, for the leaders of religion have “always” gotten it wrong whenever a Prophet of God appears.
Baha’is prefer to use the term Manifestation of God, i.e. One in Whom the Attributes of God are made manifest, the most recent of which were the Bab (Gate) and Baha’u’llah (Glory of God).
Faith and Reason fit very well together, as do Science and Religion, in the Baha’i Faith.
Superstition does not.
Dale,
Having taken your advice to Google the calendar conversion, I went a little farther to examine these dates. The prophet Muhammad was born in 570 CE and 40 years later, apparently visited by the angel Gabriel received his first revelation. That brings it to the year 610 CE. 610 + 1260 = 1870. Or, 570 + 1260 = 1830. Not sure anyone would consider that a coincidence, give or take a few years. However, according to historical records the Islamic calendar started in AD 622.
You wrote: “So what happened [in 1844]?”
With all these three apparent (Muhammad; Baha’i and Miller) revelations, regarding the year AD 1844, it appears to me it was a year of great deception, rather than enlightenment. As I said earlier, Daniel’s vision of the 1260 days did not end in 1844. All prophetic revelations in the OT Scriptures pointed to the coming Christ; and all ended at His ascension to God the Father shortly after His resurrection. There are no Biblical prophecies, relating to world historical events after Christ. All prophecy, especially that of the Book of Revelation is spiritual in nature and has nothing to do with world politics, world powers or events; and yet many continue to search this Blessed Book only to satisfy their curiosities regarding the future, but not to know Christ Himself.
Cont.
Continued
Dale, if I came across as a “know-it-all”, then forgive me for my forthright style of writing. However, I trust Christ Who gives me understanding, not to raise myself above others, but to glorify Him. All the praise and Glory belongs to Jesus the Christ.
DD
This is clipped from the Wikipedia article, “Jesus in Islam”:
In Islam, Isa ibn Maryam (Arabic: عيسى بن مريم, translit. ʿĪsā ibn Maryām, lit. ‘Jesus, son of Mary’), or Jesus (b. ~4 AD), is understood to be the penultimate prophet and messenger of Allah (God) and al-Masih, the Arabic term for Messiah,[1][2] the “Christ”,[3] sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā’īl in Arabic) with a new revelation: al-Injīl (Arabic for “the Gospel”).[4] Jesus is believed to be a prophet,[3] who neither married nor had any children, and is reflected as a significant figure,[5] being mentioned in the Quran in 93 ayaat (Arabic for verses) with various titles attached such as “Son of Mary”,[6] “Spirit of God”,[7] and the “Word of God”[7] among other relational terms, directly and indirectly, over 180 times.[8][9]
Thank you, William A.
I find that information strange, as the Muslims don’t believe Jesus could have been the Son of God, nor the Christ. Yes, they acknowledge He was a prophet and a messenger from God, but that’s all.
DD Would than not be just a new understanding by shifting ones “Frame of Reference”. A Messenger is the I Am, the First and Last, the Way the Truth and the Life. They are all born of the Most Great Spirit and all guide us to the Holy Spirit.
Christ must be known and loved to come to the Father.
We all must see the “I Am” as the Name and way to the Father.
We can not give True Love to God without Christ, as the Father and the Son are One.
Regards Tony
Yes, Tony, Christ is indeed the Messenger from God the Father–He is the Word of God; the only begotten Son of God the Father. Everyone else, who believes in the Testimony of God the Father, which He gave of His Son, is begotten of Christ Jesus. These are the children of God and the family of God the Father.
DD
But there is more. This is from an imam’s recent public remarks, again clipped from the internet:
“The second coming of Jesus Christ is a doctrine that every Muslim must believe. The teachings of prophet Muhammed talks extensively about this. The Qua’ ran Chapter 4:157-159 teaches this but the teachings of Islam does not support that Jesus was killed or resurrected, rather, he was raised by Almighty Allah to his majesty.” “Jesus is coming again to refute the claim of the Jews that he was crucified and to correct the doctrine of the Christians that he is the son of God. Again, the second coming of Jesus is to establish that there is a close relationship between Prophet Muhammed and Jesus himself.”
Read more at: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/islam-believes-jesus-will-come-saheed-salmon/
ISIS is fighting a prophetic war that foreshadows the imminent return of Jesus Christ – According to ISIS.
Jesus Christ’s title in Islam includes, the Son of Mary. This is very unusual, even unique, in Arab culture to title matrilineal descent. This is the same person the Q’ruan also calls the ‘Spirit of God’ and the ‘Word of God’. The supposed Christian error that He is the Son of God is not addressed in the unusual use of the term, ‘Son of Mary.’ What is implied? Who is His father?
DD All is forgiven, but to so rashly classify so many as anti-Christ is well over the line, but lets let that go and look at “only begotten Son of God” a minute, in Psalms 2:7 which identifies David: “The Lord hath seaid to me: Thou are My Son: This day I have begotten thee.” … and Hebrews 11:17 “By faith Abraham … offered up Isaac … HIs only begotten Son.” although Ishmael preceded him, and Abraham begat six sons with Katurah also.
The Greek word monogenes has multiple meanings.
IMPORTANT to note Micah 5:2 “But thou Bethlehem… out of thee shall He come forth that is to be ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting.”
Hence, “He” appears from time to time clothed in diverse human attire…
Similar to Krishna saying that “Whenever irreligion prevails, “I Myself” come forth… born from age to age… to renew righteousness…”
THEN consider that Immortal Spirit which states: “Before Abraham was, I am.” Since Abraham was before Jesus, this Immortal Spirit was also before Jesus, i.e. His current mortal form, “Whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting.”
NOW consider the sun. No matter how many times it rises, from whatever point on the horizon, it is still the same sun, though called by many names.
These “Spiritual Suns” are likewise Manifestations of the One God. Individually named Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’u’llah, and future Manifestations of the One God. Each is…
Dale,
But the bible is a story about God choosing Israel. That holy book tells about God giving His particular law to a particular people – particularly to Israel. God is not the God of that place. He is the One God who gives Israel a particular land and place.
You can believe in a universal religion for all men. But you cannot ground that belief in the Hebrew scripture. The God who made us all, has chosen to love us all through Israel. He is the King of Israel.
As Jesus said: Salvation is of the Jews
Most High in Christ Bless.
William it is the Torah that tells us in the Last days that the “Glory of the Lord” was to come by the way of the “Gate” whos prospect was towards thw East.
The Gate was the Bab and it opened in the East in Shiraz. The Bab was Elijah come first and prepared the way for Baha’u’llah the “Glory of the Lord”.
Many Prophecies were fulfilled by the Persecution and Banishment of Baha’u’llah which resulted in Him being imprisoned in Akka Isreal.
This in turn fulfilled many Prophecies about Isreal and the “Glory of God” in the Last Days.
Isreal, Mt Carmel and Akka now host the worlds newest Religion from God, the Law goes out from Zion, the Ark of the Covernant stands upon on Mt Carmel.
God has called the Jews back to the heart of his Faith.
There is much to much to this subject to do it justice in these few words. The promise to the Jews is complete. The Glory of the Lord again radiates from the Holy Land.
Regards Tony
“Many Prophecies were fulfilled by the Persecution and Banishment of Baha’u’llah…”
Tony, which prophecies are you referring to; can you give more details?
DD – Thank you for the follow up question, the first quoted Prophecy to William above was from Ezekiel 43:4 “And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east”.
We can start with a couple about coming from the East and the first to consider is Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain”.
This is amazing in how it unfolded. If Baha’u’llah (The Glory of God) had not made a Claim, He would not have been persecuted and Banished to follow 100% the Path of this Prophecy to end up in the Prison Fortress of Akka in Israel. A google search will find a map of this Banishment as written in Micah.
Now if If we also look at Jeremiah 49:38 “And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD”.
This was Persia and both the Bab (Gate) the Forerunner of Baha’u’llah (Glory of God) were born in and came from Persia. Beginning in September 1867, Bahá’u’lláh wrote a series of letters to the world leaders of His time, addressing, among others, Emperor Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, Kaiser Wilhelm I, Tsar Alexander II of Russia, Emperor Franz Joseph, Pope Pius IX, Sultan Abdul-Aziz, and the Persian ruler, Nasiri’d-Din Shah. In these letters, Bahá’u’lláh openly proclaimed His station. He spoke of the dawn of a new age…
“If Baha’u’llah (The Glory of God) had not made a Claim, He would not have been persecuted and Banished to follow 100% the Path of this Prophecy to end up in the Prison Fortress of Akka in Israel.”
Tony, with all due respect, prophecies of the OT ended with Christ, nearly 2000 years ago. Many still believe the last Week of the Seventy Week Prophecy of Daniel 9 is yet to be fulfilled—this is not true. Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the Seventy Week Prophecy.
There is a belief that modern-day Israel is being “re-gathered” and returned to their homeland according to Bible prophecies—this also is not true. Google “The Regathering Deception” on the “End Times Deceptions” website for more details.
I have many reservations when people make claims about Bible Prophecies being fulfilled in regards to historical world events. We are living in the New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Christ has ushered in the Spiritual Kingdom of God which has nothing to do with worldly matters or political wrangling. Some people and nations love to inject themselves into Bible Prophecy in an attempt to show others they have a divine calling, but nothing is farther from the truth.
Sorry, Tony, you haven’t convinced me.
DD,
What is the status of physical Israel? Hath God cast away His people?
DD as you are aware it is not for me to convince you, I can only produce further passages to consider. In the end all our Beliefs are fortified by our own reasoning, but should we consider if it is our reasoning or Gods we need. In the time of Jesus the Christ the Jews used their reasoning based on Faith and Scripture, but it was found to be inadequate, it needed the New Frame of Reference of the Word of Jesus the Christ. This is so in every age that God has sent His Messengers, there is no message that has not been rejected by the peoples of the time it was given. This should be a lesson in Humility for us all, a Fisherman became a Rock of belief in Christ and the Pharisees perished.
Consider with Baha’u’llah that Events Happened as the result of actions taken by other and these actions resulted in a Biblical Passage being Fulfilled. This was also with Christ, so it is a just and reasonable way to do as Jesus Christ asked us to do in 1 Thessalonians 5:20 “Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good”. Thus if you like, we can continue with this as our prime motive and thought. Would you like to continue?
Regards Tony
Dale,
What should be noted at this point is that many world religions are now acknowledging Jesus. Why? The Holy Scriptures, which includes the New Testament are inspired by God—full of God’s Wisdom; Knowledge; Peace; Grace; Mercy; Justice; Forgiveness; Redemption and Love. How would these world religious leaders look if they rejected these attributes of God found in the Hebrew Scriptures and the NT?
The men and women God used and spoke through all testified to the coming Christ, the Savior of the world. This Savior has been with humanity throughout earth’s history, having manifested Himself through His Angel and the prophets, but has only once come to dwell with us in human form, born of Mary. He has returned to God the Father from whence He came, never to be “clothed in …. human attire” again, for He is Spirit. Jesus said: “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” John 16:28. He leaves this world and His earthly body so that He can come back to dwell in those who believe in Him: “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23. These people are His witnesses.
Uniformity among world religions is a subtle form of deception to make the God and Savior of the world a common God; and finally reject the One Who has revealed Himself through the Holy Scriptures for all to acknowledge.
Cont.
The words of the Book of Revelation are being fulfilled: “7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.” Rev. 20:7-10.
The Jews rejected Christ, but this rejection is wide spread throughout all humanity:
“10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12.
People call God and the Son of God by whatever name they choose, but do they acknowledge the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the NT? “30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:30, 31.
“Their sorrows shall be multiplied who hasten after another god; their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, nor take up their names on my lips.” Ps. 16:4.
William, Thank you for your replies and clarifications of Islamic thought. I say thought, as in interpretations, which vary considerably, as evidenced by translations into English of such matters as the crucifixion, which to me, simply imply that the One Who was before Abraham, the Spirit of God, cannot be crucified, although it appeared to them they did. Thus, in the crucifixion of Jesus, that is, His body, they believed they had killed Him. Then “God took Him up to Himself.”
. Translators who fail to comprehend the inner significance of the event and its subtle reality “have eyes, but see not”, even as another verse in the Quran, speaking of martyrs says: “Think not that they are dead. Nay, they are alive.” (though their bodies have perished)
. . As to “Salvation is of the Jews”, let us remember Genesis 17:20 “And as for Ishamel, I have heard thee. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly, twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.”
. . The twelve princes are the twelve Imams, beginning with Ali, all murdered, ending in 260 AH. And 1000 years later is 1260 AH. See how they fit together? And the “great nation” of Islam was the fulfillment of that verse.
. . These are all gears in the same transmission, 1st, 2nd, 3rd… Jewish, Christian, Muslim. Now we are in Overdrive… and the date is 173 BE Baha’i Era.
. . “The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended.”
Dale,
“…matters as the crucifixion, which to me, simply imply that the One Who was before Abraham, the Spirit of God, cannot be crucified, although it appeared to them they did.”
Isaiah 53 comes to mind:
“8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken….. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.”
What shall we say to this? When the Son of God, Who is Spirit, (for He proceeded from the Father), was crucified, what part of Him died?
“12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb. 9:12-14.
Continued
How could Christ take His human blood into the Most Holy Place, which is the very Presence of God the Father? Is the “blood of Christ” mentioned here Spiritual in nature? Is not the “blood the life of the flesh”? But what about the “blood” of the Son of God, Who is Spirit? Why do people wrestle with the message, as declared throughout the NT that the Son of God actually died? Jesus said: “54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” John 6:53-56.
If Jesus refers to His Blood as “drink”, is this not a Spiritual Drink? If His Blood is Spiritual in nature, then this is the Blood with which He “entered the Most Holy Place”.
“26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,..” John 5:26.
Do you still think Jesus the Son of God could not die spiritually? No human can, nor ever will fully comprehend what the Eternal Word of God, the Son of God experienced at His death.
No wonder it says: “7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” Rev. 1:7.
DD . I understand the idea that Adventists typically have about death, that the soul is permanently associated with the body, but the Baha’i belief is more like a bird which is released from its cage.
. When a person dies, whether from natural causes or murder, crucifixion, etc, it is the body which dies, not the soul. It is as though my shirt has left me and the wool or cotton returns to the soil. Picture one of those British Knights in rusty armor finally being set free.
. The blessed Jesus sacrificed His mortal frame at the Crucifixion… He still lives!!!
. “Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”
. Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah LXXX
“The soul that sins shall die.” Was God lying when He said that?
Dale, I see some contradictions within that passage which you quoted. The soul, according to my understanding, is the mind. The spirit gives life to the mind/soul. The body’s ailments are in fact due to the sinful soul; and therefore the soul must be purified, transformed/conformed to the likeness of Jesus Christ to be received into everlasting life with God (See Heb. 12:22-24). The soul cannot live without a body; and when we die the physical death we receive from God a heavenly body, that is, spiritual in nature. The soul will die unless born-again by God’s Spirit.
And, yes, as I pointed our earlier, Jesus still lives–for He is Spirit.
When the Son of God laid down His Life it was more than just His body. What more could He have achieved by only dying a physical death–don’t we all die? How could God pronounce a sentence upon mankind (the soul that sins shall die) if He could not endure the same? How could He “save to the utmost” if not possessing the “keys of Hades and of Death”? Yes, He did much more than die a physical death. And why would He ask Abraham to sacrifice his son when God was not willing to do the same?
The Son of God is Spirit and not flesh.
DD . I think of a bird, hatching out of an egg, ready to fly. It gets it right or becomes bass bait. At least back home along the cliffs of the Missouri, where the swallows lived. The metaphor applies to us spiritually.
. Paul said in Corinthians: 15:50 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.”
. This suggests a metaphysical life after death.
“The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.
It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths….”
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah LXXXVI
DD. Read Psalms 2:7 in reference to David
“The Lord hath said unto me.
Thou art My Son; this day I have begotten thee…”
Hence, according to the Bible, Jesus clearlyrics is Not the “only” begotten Son of God. …
And in Hebrews 11:17
“… when Abraham. .. offered up Isaac… His only begotten son.”
Yet Ishmael was begotten before Isaac…
Dale,
Psalm 2 is all about Jesus Christ and not David; David was prophesying of Christ. See Hebrews 1.
Take careful note of verses 4 and 5: “having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they, For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”? What is this telling us? His “in-her-it-ance” is from God Himself; Jesus is the Son of God the Father, the “Only Begotten” of God the Father—He is God’s Offspring; just as we “inherit” the genes from our parents. Angels were created by God, that is, by the Word of God. No one has ever been Begotten of God the Father except His Son Jesus the Christ. “This is My Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17. See John 1:18.
“1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power,…” Hebrews 1.
Regarding the sons of Abraham, only one is of promise—Isaac; “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” that is, Christ. Ishmael is of the bond woman Hagar.
DD … I can accept your explanation of David pointing to Jesus in that passage. The Prophets always point the way to the next One coming.
. The difficulty for humanity is in “recognizing” the One Who comes. Thus, Abraham’s own father failed to recognize the Station of his son.
. Pharaoh failed to recognize Moses, and the Jews have failed to recognize Jesus.
. Now it is also true, from an Islamic standpoint, that the Jews and Christians, identified as “People of the Book”, had failed to recognize Muhammad.
. In this Day, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but for a few, have yet to recognize the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Each group will point to this and that as reasons for their rejection, such as the Pharisees did to justify turning away from Christ.
All are confident in their assertions. Yet what is interesting is the pattern of rejection and denial. It repeats itself.
. Consider how Abraham was cast into the fire and had to leave his homeland.
. How Moses wandered in the wilderness for forty years.
. How Jesus was crucified and His followers were fed to the lions for sport.
. How Muhammad had to leave Mecca amid severe persecution and torment.
. How the Bab was killed by firing squad and some 20,000 of His followers were killed.
. How Baha’u’llah withstood forty years of imprisonment and exile.
Yet despite this repeated persecution of each of these Prophets and those who recognized Them, Their religion lived on. (contented)
Dale,
“Now it is also true, from an Islamic standpoint, that the Jews and Christians, identified as “People of the Book”, had failed to recognize Muhammad.
“In this Day, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but for a few, have yet to recognize the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Each group will point to this and that as reasons for their rejection, such as the Pharisees did to justify turning away from Christ.”
Dale, not sure I am following you by what you just wrote. Are you implying that there have been and will be more than one Christ appearing throughout this earth’s existence?
DD . Reply to: “Dale… Are you implying that there have been and will be more than one Christ appearing throughout this earth’s existence?”
In human language there are terms of distinction, such as “Christos”, which means “anointed”. For those who believe in Him, Jesus was anointed, designated by God.
. However we regard the Prophets before Him (Jesus), whether we use the term “anointed” or not, as Abraham was called the “Friend” of God, does that mean Jesus was not? Moses was the “Inerlocutor” for His communication with God, but Jesus also spoke with God.
. The term “Apostle” in relation to Muhammad, designates similarly a close proximity to God as a Messenger, appointed for a purpose.
. Again, the Bab (Gate) of God, or Baha’u’llah (Glory of God)
. The purpose of the sun is to shine. The purpose of a Sun is to Shine.
. “These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…. ” (continued)
These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.”
These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah XIX
Mankind is caught up in the jaws of religious intolerance and hate, justified by each holding to the view that the other(s) is/are wrong. The Divine Drama continues to this day in Syria and elsewhere. From Cain and Abel, Ishmael and Isaac, Jew and Gentile, people make war upon each other and declare their own innocence, ignoring the admonitions of their own Book.
. We need to step back and take another look. “As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.”
. Where is objectivity when the vast majority of men merely echo the Faith of their fathers? Steeped in blind imitation, assuming they won the lottery by being born into the “right” religion, declaring “their way or the highway” (to hell) for the “other” fella…
. I hope this helps
. “The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.”
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah CXXXII
I have a question for Dale and DD.
What does the scripture encompass in meaning which Jesus quotes, “ye are gods”?
This is not a trick question. I don’t really know what it exactly means.
Good question, William A. I think this may help:
Ps. 82:7: “But you shall die like men…” What makes humans “god-like” in character?
“1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because your heart is lifted up, and you say, ‘I am a god, in the midst of the seas,’ Yet you are a man, and not a god, though you set your heart as the heart of a god 3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 With your wisdom and your understanding you have gained riches for yourself, and gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, and your heart is lifted up because of your riches),” 6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, 7 behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor. 8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. 9 “Will you still say before him who slays you, ‘I am a god’? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. 10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’” Eze. 28:1-10.
Who is the king of Babylon?
William, regarding the term “ye are gods” … I would think of those possessing heavenly attributes. People create words for exceptional people. Like: “He’s an angel…”
As to the manner of His coming at the end of the age, Christ said:—
. “And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. … then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.” —Matt. xxiv, 30–31–32.
. “And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels. …” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. …
Judge fairly: Were the prophecies recorded in the Gospel to be literally fulfilled; were Jesus, Son of Mary, accompanied by angels, to descend from the visible heaven upon the clouds; who would dare to disbelieve, who would dare to reject the truth, and wax disdainful? Nay, such consternation would immediately seize all the dwellers of the earth that no soul would feel able to utter a word, much less to reject or accept the truth.”
Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
Personally, my Beliefs are fortified through Reason
“What is the status of physical Israel? Hath God cast away His people?”
William A., God has not cast away anyone as far as individual repentance and Salvation is concerned. I know it’s hard for some to accept this, but no nation is of any significance in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Israel was used mightily by God and it’s no denying salvation came through the Jews. But salvation is from/of and by God through Jesus Christ His Son, and not man–lest any man should boast in flesh and blood.
DD,
Reread Romans 11. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Paul obviously thinks physical Israel has predestined status of some kind with God. Why do you contradict Paul?
“Why do you contradict Paul?”
“27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” Rom. 2:27-29.
William, all men must repent and be baptized into Christ Jesus. “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, but all are one in Christ Jesus” who sanctifies those who believe in Him and are born-again by His Spirit.
“11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.” Eph. 2:11-13.
“brought near” to what, or who? To God the Father. We are not baptized into any nation or church, but into Christ Jesus; and through Him we all have access to God the Father.
DD,
That’s evasive. I don’t disagree with any of the scriptures you quote. You disagree with Paul when he says physical Israel has some sort of predestined status in Romans 11.
You say they have none. My original question was what is the nature of their status? Romans 11 is unambiguous. You are choosing to ignore what Paul wrote in the texts in question. You are choosing instead to quote Pauline texts that none can come to God except through Christ.
I am sorry to be contentious but you are not speaking to my question.
William, I also do not intend to be contentious–not interested at all. I am not evading your question, nor contradicting Paul. See for yourself:
“3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. ….. 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; …….7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ.”
Paul is pleading with physical Israel—“19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;”. “20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews;…”. “to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all, that I might by all means save some.”
Continued.
Cont.
As for Romans 11: I have no idea what Paul is talking about! Are we “grafted” into physical Israel or into Christ Himself, Who is the Vine? Are we baptized into physical Israel or Christ?
“12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many…. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.” 1 Cor. 12:12-31.
“Wisdom is justified by her children.”
DD . . There are the “time” prophecies, the “place” prophecies, and then there are the “verses” as proofs. Ultimately, its the verses which count. If they are from God, they will resonate in the heart of the soul whom He has made. Something about those words of Jesus just ring true. The same, for me, of the words of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
. The time prophecies regarding the Two Witnesses and the 1260 years of the lunar calendar, which “exactly” intersect with the 1844 solar calendar, make sense to me, having studied them in detail.
. As well as the “seven times” prophecy of Moses, 7 x 360 = 2520 years from Manasseh being carted off in 677 BC, also make sense to me, again ending in 1844.
. And of course the 2300 years from 457 BC (No year zero means you add one) ending in 1844, without which, there would be no Millerite movement, no Adventist church, etc.
. . . The place prophecies are also there, but would mean nothing if the “verses” didn’t justify further examination as to Who fulfilled the time/place conditions with accuracy.
. They can be found on bahai.org and need not be added here, but when with “Reason” we try to make sense of the Bible, what do we have to work with, logically, except numbers like “seven” and “forty” repeating themselves. Why seven? Or 40? When do these figures of Daniel begin and end? How do they mesh with the appearance in the world of Figures like Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah?
(continued)
cont…
. Well, you seem to be asking, so briefly, there were precisely 1260 lunar years from the Hijera to the Declaration of the Bab in 1844. There were 1280 years from the Hijera to the public declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863, which was precisely 1290 lunar years from the public declaration of Muhammad, ten years prior to the Hejira.
. This only makes sense once one considers the “hypothesis” that Islam didn’t come out of the blue, but was in fact prophesied in Revelation. The Two Witnesses, according to this hypothesis, were Muhammad and Ali, and that Their Dispensation lasted for 1260 years, which “coincidentally”, otherwise, just “happened” to terminate in 1844, at the end of the 2300 period foretold by Daniel, which Jesus Himself referred His disciples to in Mathew 24:15 “When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet”.
. Islam was immediately fractured the very day of Muhammad’s death, with the rejection of His Successor, Ali, by Umar: “Verily the Book is sufficient unto us.”
. From these words, most of the bloodshed of Islam flowed, even until today, as the Caliphate emerged from the Ummayyads (the Beast), killing all of the Imams until 260 AH, after which 1000 years would pass, a figure mentioned in the Quran, terminating in 1260 AH, which aligns with the 1260 years of Daniel and Revelation.
. . . But do you see how this gets very long and is such a paradigm shift in thinking …
(cont 2)
(cont 2)
. Hence, study the verses of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and you can bypass most of this. I’ll leave that up to you. They either ring true to your spiritual ears or they do not.
. . God bless you for your firm belief in Jesus the Christ, and tolerance for those who fail to recognize Him (the Jews), while you fail to recognize the later Manifestations of God, yet want to be tolerated by those who do. For is this not the challenge of religion? To love thine enemies, be tolerant of others, and have a Belief Fortified by Reason?
. For some who read: “For the Son of Man shall come in the Glory of His Father” … they are still awaiting the Second Advent, even as the Jews are awaiting the First Advent.
. For others: “He “has” come in the Glory of the Father (Baha’u’llah)” … and they are no longer waiting, even as the Christians are not waiting for His first Advent.
. Similarly, the Muslims await, and will continue to wait, for the Qaim (or Mihdi) and the Christ to descend miraculously, rather than biologically, setting forth the same arguments, while slaying some 20,000 followers of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, hanging women ten at a time, torturing and imprisoning anyone who dares to speak in certain lands. (By this I mean not to condemn the vast majority of Muslims by any means, but illustrate the plight of the Baha’is, primarily in Iran at the hands of fanatics).
. . . and yes, the Jews have been gathered…
Dale,
“When do these figures of Daniel begin and end?”
The 2300, 1290, 1335 day periods of Daniel; 42 months, time and times and half a time, etc, periods of Revelation, can only refer to 24 hour days. If it referred to years in any way we would have no part in these prophecies, and therefore exclude any responsibilities and involvement on our behalf during these time periods.
“Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days”. Dan.12:12. Do these days really refer to years? How could any human wait for 1335 years? “But he who endures to the end will be saved” Matt.10:22; 24:13.
You wrote: “The Two Witnesses, according to this hypothesis, were Muhammad and Ali, and that Their Dispensation lasted for 1260 years,..”:
Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the Prophets and both testify to Jesus Christ:
“And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him”. Matt. 17:3.
“11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lamp stand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” 13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”” Zech.4:11-14.
Continued
Cont.
“3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth.” Rev.11:3, 4.
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ brings another dimension to our life. In accepting Him we now “press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:14). Salvation is being worked out in our hearts. “3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, “6 being confident of this very thing, that He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ;” (Philippians 1:3-6)
The Apostle Paul calls himself “chief of sinners”. What does he intend to prove by saying that? To Glorify and declare the Mercy, forgiveness and Love of His Savour, Jesus Christ. It is personal. The history of this earth, this material world, and all people as a whole is God’s responsibility; He will “role up the heavens like cloak”, “the earth will be dissolved, being on fire”. But the salvation of our souls is our responsibility.
What shall I say to all this? Belief is fortified by our reasoning, but is it in truth?
Thank you for sharing your understanding with me. May the Lord Jesus Bless you.
DD Reply to your comment about prophecy, the meaning of “day”
“Each day for a year”
This reply will appear in 4 consecutive portions.
. Let us start on our points of agreement. That is, we both have a belief in God, and that Jesus is the Christ, and the Prophets before Him: Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the minor prophets such as Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc. So indeed, we have much in common, and our sense of difference is based upon the fulfillment of certain prophecies.
. You mention that the prophetic “days” are composed of 24 hour days, yet hundreds of millennial scholars would disagree with you, with nearly fifty published works between 1811 and 1844 alone, all concluding that the Return of Christ was immanent, somewhere between 1843 and 1847, based upon their interpretations of the visions of Daniel.
. To begin, they point to:
. Numbers 14:34 “After the number of days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years…”
. Ezekiel 4:6 “and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
. . . Leroy Froom, John Fry, William Miller, Joseph Wolf, and scores of others conclude with certainty that the 2300 days are in fact “years”, which conclude with 1844, give or take a year or so.
The Adventist Movement was founded upon this, that the starting point, being 457 BC, when 2300 years is added, becomes 1844. Do you agree with their conclusion?
(continued 1) …
cont 1 … The “seventy weeks” prophecy is weeks of years, 70 x 7 = 490, when added to 457 BC, is 34 AD (no year zero), “When Messiah shall be cut off”, that is, Christ was crucified.
. This same day for a year principal, when applied to 1260 days means 1260 years, yet they did not know the starting point of this prophecy, which appears repeatedly in Daniel and Revelation. Some speculated events from 538 AD ending in 1798 AD, but this is merely a hypothesis based upon certain historical events surrounding the Papacy.
It “Totally Ignores” the appearance of Islam in the world, the impact of the religion brought by Muhammad upon world civilization, and the indisputable “fact” that the Islamic Calendar year 1260 AH is dead on at 1844 AD.
. Other codings such as “time, times, and a half” are the addition of 360 (time), 720 (two times), and 180 (half a time) = 1260.
. Also, 42 months (of 30 days) = 1260. . . Also 3 1/2 days (of years: 3.5 X 360 = 1260) . . . and 3 1/2 years (again 3.5 X 360 = 1260)
(continued 2) …
cont 2… .These Christian millennial scholars failed to account for what is now over a billion Muslims in the world, in relation to Bible prophecy, largely out of ignorance or prejudice, dismissing entirely the significance of God’s promise to Abraham. See Genesis 17:20 “And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.”
. This is the “Nation of Islam”, beginning with twelve Imams: 1) Ali, 2) Hasan son of Ali, 3) Husayn son of Ali, 4) Ali son of Husayn, 5) Muhammad son of Ali, 6) Jafar al Sadiq, 7) Musa son of Jafar, 8) Ali son of Musa, 9) Muhammad son of Ali, 10) Ali son of Muhammad, 11) Hasan son of Ali, 12)Muhammad son of Hasan, who disappeared in the year 260 AH, and was to reappear as the Promised One, the Mihdi, who will return with Christ.
. This is the same as John the Baptist being the Return of Elijah, before Christ, not the same actual person of Elijah (DNA), but rather the spiritual station, which John fulfilled.
(continued 3)
Dale,
Abraham is the father of many nations. It is through Isaac his seed shall be called. Abraham has many sons, but only Isaac is chosen. Both You and DD err in supposing super-succession. That physical Israel has been unchosen and replaced or succeeded by the church or Islam or B’hai.
Jesus Christ came to reconcile the world unto Himself/God. He did that through His passion as He suffered as the Redeemer King of the Jews. All the promises to Israel now belong to us through Jesus Christ. He is by faith now also our King. But we have not become Jews, nor have the physical Jews ceased being Jews. God has not changed his mind about choosing the physical Israel. “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”
This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 11. God is the ruler of all nations through the King of Kings and Lord of Lords – the one true King, the King of Israel, Jesus who is called Christ. Crucified under the banner, “King of the Jews.”
Dale you are correct, the nations remain. We are not called to become Jews. Yet Paul makes it clear: And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. The heirs according to the promise spring from loins of Isaac and Jacob. Believers join them, not succeed them, by faith, as heirs.
cont 3.. In the same way, it is not “Jesus” Who returns, but One Who fulfills that spiritual station He occupied. “Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2
. However, hundreds of modern scholars concur with these accounts, recognizing the factual reality that these Calendars cross at critical points in time, but coincide with the movement of physical Personages who fulfill various place prophecies. Only an unbiased and objective study will suffice to gain an understanding of these historical events.
. Only the appearance of the Bab in Elam (the place of Daniel’s prophecy) fulfills the 1844 prophecy of 1260 days.
. Only the appearance of Baha’u’llah fulfills the 1863 prophecy of 1280, and 1290 days also mentioned in Daniel.
. . . . . . Thus, 1260 AH = 1844 AD = ONE BE . . . . . .
Thus, even as we entered a new era with the Calendar of Christ, another with the Calendar of Muhammad, the Calendar of the Baha’is is recording time. They work together, as gears in One Transmission, once you understand it. Consider the Standard and Metric Systems of linear measurement. Which is easier, 3 feet in a yard (12 inches in a foot)? or One Meter of 100 centimeters.
The Badi Calendar is composed of 19 months of 19 days, or 361 … the square root of a year, with 4 days (or 5) attached prior to the last month.
Ezekiel 4:6 “I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
Dale, nowhere in Daniel or Revelation does God “appoint” a day for a year. Without doubt God always makes Himself clear when communicating to man, just as He did in Ezekiel. I reject the “day for a year” principle as far as the books of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. 70 Weeks of Sevens does refer to 490 years, I accept this.
“But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” Dan. 9:27.
I will repeat what I have already written some time ago on these forums:
The “generations” mentioned in Matthew 1, that is, 14+14+14 from Abraham until Christ, were 490 years consecutively. Each generation was 35 years, that is, 14 x 35 = 490 years. The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 also equals 490 years, which corresponds with the last 14th generation mentioned in Matthew 1:17. So, all the years from Abraham until Christ were: 490 + 490 + 490 = 1470 years.
This brings us to approximately 3500 years from the time God made man up until the time of Christ (without going into detail regarding the years between Adam and Abraham).
Continued.
Cont.
Here is another Scripture passage confirming this:
“23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days;” (Ps.102:23, 24. See also Heb.1:10-12). This was the Word of God speaking to God the Father, Who would come in the flesh, (John 1:14); “Who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death” on the Cross (Heb.2:9); Who was thus “weakened”. According to the above Scripture evidence, the “midst of His days” would be 3500 years of 7000 years.
You wrote: “However, hundreds of modern scholars concur with these accounts, recognizing the factual reality that these Calendars cross at critical points in time, but coincide with the movement of physical Personages who fulfill various place prophecies. Only an unbiased and objective study will suffice to gain an understanding of these historical events.”
No doubt there is someone orchestrating historical world events for them to appear in harmony with Scriptural Prophecies—who is it, God or Satan? Rev. 20:7-10 comes to mind again.
I see nothing in Scripture to confirm all those dates, which you so eloquently set out as falling, coincidentally, on the year 1844. Sorry, Dale, I can’t see it.
I appreciate the time and effort you and Tony have contributed here; but my understanding of Scripture is Spiritual in nature and doesn’t involve historical world events, which cannot benefit anyone spiritually.
DD Said: “I reject the “day for a year” principle as far as the books of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. 70 Weeks of Sevens does refer to 490 years, I accept this.”
. . . Sooo… you “do” accept the “day for a year” principal when it “fits your thinking!”
. . Good for you, because each person has the unique responsibility of opening their own eyes to the pages of history, scientific evidence, and religious vision. Whether you “see it” or not depends upon you, not me, for the prophetic words of Jesus also apply to this day:
. “Eyes they have, but see not.”
. . You said: . “is someone orchestrating historical world events for them to appear in harmony with Scriptural Prophecies…?”
Could be. Jeremiah did prophecy “historical events” in Chapter 49:38
. “And I will set my Throne in Elam, and will “destroy from thence the king and the princes”, saith the LORD.”
. . Let us examine just this One Prophecy of Jeremiah and see how it was fulfilled, for Elam is Persia, both the land of Daniel’s vision and Baha’u’llah’s birth.
. . From Adrianople and from His prison cell in Akka, Baha’u’llah wrote (1867-’70) to the great leaders of the day, individually and collectively, warning them to turn towards God.
continued 1
continued 1
…”O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s … Ye are but vassals, O kings of the earth! He Who is the King of Kings hath appeared, arrayed in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation, lest the things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven. Arise, and serve Him Who is the Desire of all nations, Who hath created you through a word from Him, and ordained you to be, for all time, the emblems of His sovereignty.”
. . . “ Coincidentally”, all of these leaders and their kingdoms, whose downfall he predicted were extinguished or reduced, either rapidly or in our time, except the one whom He said would have “a long and glorious reign”, which lasted from 1837 to 1901, Queen Victoria (the only Sovereign whose response was favorable)…
. “We have been informed that thou hast forbidden trading in slaves, both men and women. This, verily, is what God hath enjoined in this wondrous Revelation. God hath, truly, destined a reward for thee because of this… We have also heard that thou hast entrusted the reins of counsel into the hands of the representatives of the people. Thou, indeed, hast done well, for thereby the foundations of the edifice of thine affairs will be strengthened…”
continued 2
continued 2
. . and to America, He assigned a special role:
. “Hearken ye, O Rulers of America and the Presidents of the Republics therein, unto that which the Dove is warbling on the Branch of Eternity: There is none other God but Me, the Ever-Abiding, the Forgiving, the All-Bountiful. … bind ye the broken with the hands of justice, and crush the oppressor who flourisheth with the rod of the commandments of your Lord”
. . To the others, He wrote: . . . “If ye pay no heed unto the counsels which, in peerless and unequivocal language, We have revealed in this Tablet, Divine chastisement shall assail you from every direction, and the sentence of His justice shall be pronounced against you. On that day ye shall have no power to resist Him, and shall recognize your own impotence. Have mercy on yourselves and on those beneath you.”
. Shah of Iran – Nasiri’Din Shah, the “King” of Persia, assassinated 1896 (there are no more Shahs)
“O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing…”
. Czar Alexander II – assassinated 1881 (there are no more Czars)
“O Czar of Russia! Incline thine ear unto the voice of God… `Lo! The Lord is come in His great majesty!’ He Who is the Father is come, and the Son (Jesus), in the holy vale, crieth out: `Here am I, O Lord, My God!’…
cont 3
. Fuad Pasha – died 1869
”They who circle around the Exalted Throne have wailed and lamented. We behold in thee the foolish ruling over the wise, and darkness vaunting itself against the light. Thou art indeed filled with manifest pride… By Him Who is the Lord of mankind! It shall soon perish…”
. Napoleon III – downfall 1870 after the Franco-Prussian War
“For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought.”
. Ali Pasha – died 1871
“Soon will He seize you in His wrathful anger, sedition will be stirred up in your midst, and your dominions will be disrupted.”
. Sultan Abdul Aziz – deposed in 1876, and after 400 years, the Ottoman Rule of Jerusalem collapsed in 1917.
. . . ”Hearken, O Chief…to the Voice of God, the Sovereign, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting… The day is approaching when the Land of Mystery (Adrianople) and what is beside it shall be changed, and shall pass out of the hands of the King…” … It was the extinction of a dynasty which had lasted for six and a half centuries and the collapse of the Caliphate, the most powerful institution in Islám–all these took place in that short period of time after the ‘Prisoner of ‘Akká’ had issued His clear warnings of the dire retributive calamities which were to descend upon the despotic rulers of the Land of Turkey.
cont 4
cont 4
. Emperor Franz Joseph – Preceding the collapse of the Austria-Hugarian Empire:
“O Emperor of Austria! He Who is the Dayspring of God’s Light dwelt in the prison of ‘Akká, at the time when thou didst set forth to visit the Aqsá Mosque.* Thou passed Him by, and inquired not about Him…”
. Pope Pius IX – convened the First Vatican Council in 1869, which declared “the infallibility of the Papacy”, and immediately lost the Papal States in 1870, becoming, in his own words: “A prisoner of the Vatican”…
“O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty…”
. Kaiser Wilhelm – Consider WWI and WWII
“ O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory…”
. . .
. . . Jeremiah’s prophecy of “historical events” appears to have been literally fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.
. “And I will set my Throne in Elam, and will “destroy from thence the king and the princes”, saith the LORD.”
“Sooo… you “do” accept the “day for a year” principal when it “fits your thinking!””
Dale, there is no “fits” my thinking here at all. I said the “day for a year” principle does not apply to those time periods in Daniel and Revelation. If people want to make Scripture say what they want, then who am I to stop them?
Anyway, I can say this: Very impressive historical events which don’t help me one iota let alone spiritually. How does it help anyone? And what about you, has it brought you closer to God? If Christ doesn’t dwell in our hearts, all the history in the world are only words on paper—worthless!
The so-called events of 1844 are a hoax. I wasn’t there and therefore don’t affect me. The words of the Books of Daniel and Revelation, in this case, the prophetic “days”, have been manipulated by those desiring to escape the responsibilities within those time periods, of which Jesus spoke: “But he who endures to the end will be saved” Matt.10:22; 24:13
There is only one thing I can say to those who take pleasure in changing the Prophetic “days” into years: You are cowards! Face the truth of your sinfulness and your need of Christ to change your hearts. This is what the Book of Revelation is all about; the power to change lives; and that is how it has helped me.
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.” Rev. 1:3.
God Bless.
Wiliam Miller I admire greatly. He must have been a very connected to the Spirit of the age in which he lived.
The Adventist Church and many others of this time were built upon the Interpretation of Prophecy using the Day for a year formular.
Was this foundation untruth?
Personally I think Mr Miller was 100% correct with the Day for a year thought.One may have to consider were the eyes closed to other signs that should have been investigated?
Regards Tony
William,
. “Abraham is the father of many nations. It is through Isaac his seed shall be called. … succeeded by the church or Islam or B’hai… Jesus Christ came to reconcile the world unto Himself/God. ”
. It is the promise of God to Ishmael, not my promise… just so we’re clear on that, please.
. Gen. 17:20 “says”: “As for Ishmael… I have blessed him… will multiply him exceedingly; 12 princes shall he beget, and “I” will make him a great nation.”
. But people of a certain worldview are “uncomfortable” with the Nation of Islam, due to its history, and its more comfortable for Christians to deny than deal with that reality.
. We are living in the time of the “One Fold and the One Shepherd”, according to Baha’is all over the planet, who come from every nation, race, and religion.
. This prophecy from Genesis is one of hundreds found in the Bible and all the major religions, including American Indians. i.e. Black Elk’s vision: “I saw forming the Sacred Hoop of all Nations…”
. Isaiah 62:2 says: “thou shalt be called by a “New Name”, which the mouth of the Lord shall utter.”
. Isaiah 65:13 : “the Lord God shall slay thee, and call His servants by a New Name.”
. Revelation 3:12 “and I will write upon him my New Name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the “churches”.”
. . . This stuff is not superficial, William. It is exceedingly deep. Far deeper than a few lines on a…
DD God bless your persistence!!
. You said: “70 Weeks of Sevens does refer to 490 years, I accept this.”
. “The so-called events of 1844 are a hoax.
. . . Clearly, you and not an Adventist, for they do “not” regard 1844 as a hoax!!
. You said: “There is only one thing I can say to those who take pleasure in changing the Prophetic “days” into years: You are cowards!”
. . . Cowards? Really?? All Adventists are cowards??? All 20 million of them???
. And of course six million Baha’is are cowards, including 20,000 killed for their belief that the Bab (Gate) and Baha’u’llah (Glory of God) were worth dying for rather than simply recanting their faith.
. . . 1n June of 1983, 10 Baha’i women were hanged, one after the other, each offered immediate freedom, if only they would recant their belief in Baha’u’llah. The youngest was imprisoned at age 16. Her name was Mona. I named one of my daughters after this coward and her twin sister, Tahireh, after the First woman in the Muslim world to remove the veil. Her last words before her execution in August, 1852 being: “You can kill me if you wish, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women.”
. She was offered her life, and wealth from the Shah, if she recanted her belief in the Bab as the Promised One awaited by Islam, to “appear in the year 1260 AH”, which was 1844, in Elam, where Daniel’s vision occurred over 2000 years prior.
. . Just between you and me, DD, I LOVE these…
cont… I LOVE these cowards!!
The fortitued they show in the face of extreme persecution in Iran, the torture and executions, the closure of their business, their children deprived of higher education because they “refuse” to check the box “Muslim” on their entrance papers, the bulldozing of their cemeteries, the theft of their land, homes, and pensions.
. None of this would happen if they merely “recant” their belief in Baha’u’llah
. The sister of my friend Iraj has been in an Iranian prison 8 1/2 years, serving a 10 to 20 year sentence. Her crime? Being a Baha’i.
. My wife’s aunt and two children, also imprisoned, and threatened with execution as a means to find and execute her husband and other Baha’i leaders. Their crime? Being a Baha’i.
. My dear friend’s brother’s grave bulldozed. Why? He was a Baha’i.
. People hacked to death in the streets, burned alive, etc, etc, etc, etc
. . . And you call these blessed souls cowards??
Their courage, and their Faith, is stronger than yours or mine will ever be, and these are not ignorant fanatics.
. Among them are some of the finest physicians, educators, psychologists, farmers, businessmen and women, upright citizens who are taught “Obedience to your government” as a primary tenant of their Faith.
. Among them were two Sovereigns, thus far, who both declared their belief in the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the much loved Queen Marie of Rumania, and King Malietoa Tunumafili II.
.