Needs of Women Focus of Global Gathering of Adventist Leaders
April 12, 2016: Directors of Women’s Ministries from the 14 regional units of the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference met March 8 through 12 in the department’s global advisory council. Meetings of this kind for each of the denomination’s major departments occur every five years, typically in the year following each GC Session. The agenda includes a review of the core programs assigned to the department, presentations on new resource materials and sharing of innovative projects from various places around the world.
The participants included the director and associate directors from each of the 13 “divisions” or continental regions of the denomination, as well as the Middle East and North Africa Union Mission, which functions along the same lines for an area of the world with very few Adventists and restrictive conditions in some countries. Heather-Dawn Small, the GC director of women’s ministries, and her associate, Raquel Arrais, organized the meeting.
A statement on “Women in Leadership” was voted at the meeting, according to Spectrum, the journal of the largest association of Adventist academics. The statement asks that “women and men in leadership positions be treated equally in workload, compensation and responsibilities.” It avoids the topic of ordination and ministerial credentials, leaving it to the reader to follow the logic of the resolution.
The statement does list reasons why gender equity is important to the Adventist movement: (1) the “Adventist Church is called upon to represent Christ to the world;” (2) the Church “is growing, and the need for leaders is great;” (3) “we need both women and men to fully represent the image of Christ;” (4) “our 28 Fundamental Beliefs (6, 7, 11, 14) affirm the equality of men and women;”and (5) “Christ always treats women with justice and equality.” These could be reasons for the next GC Session to reconsider its view of gender and ordination.
“We are blessed to meet with our sisters … to sit and share, plan, discuss and learn from each other what God has done is doing through our sisters around the world,” wrote Small on the GC Women’s Ministries Facebook page. Speakers included Dr. Ella Simmons, the only woman who is a GC vice president; Pastor Gilbert Cangy, the GC youth ministries director; and Ardis Stenbakken, the retired former director of women’s ministries.
The following week Small attended as an observer the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women in New York City at UN headquarters. She took a young adult observer with her; Kizanne James, a medical student and Adventist youth leader from Jamaica. “Listening to the reality of life for women in every country on the globe can be difficult, but it is necessary,” Small wrote in a report to Adventist women’s ministries leaders. “How can we as a church reach the world with the gospel of Jesus if we do not understand the pain of the people we want to reach?”
Both Stenbakken and Small are feminists. This is not the type of person the SDA church needs. I suspect that Simmons also falls into that category.
What the church is in dire need of are more women who are concerned about the SDA family, about the responsibilities of mothers and wives. When was the last time you saw any emphasis on the role of mothers and wives as depicted in Scripture and the writings of EGW?
Sufferingsunfish,
Women have always played a significant role among God’s people. In Judges 4:4, Deborah is named as being both a prophetess and a judge in Israel. Being a woman allowed Jael access to the king of an army attacking Israel and to kill him, saving her people. Numerous of the judges among the Israelites were women. One of the founding leaders of the church in Phillipi was Lydia. The founder and pastor of the largest SDA church in the world today (in Vietnam a few miles south of the border with China) is a woman and that church is sending missionaries all-over the region. Most of the churches in China are being established and led by women. It is women who are quietly spreading the Gospel in countries where you would not imagine it spreading because of the dominance of Islam.
So I do not appreciate such a broad-brush dismissal of dedicated servants of God as “feminists” as you wrote. Worse than just being unfair, I think you are diminishing a vital resource for spreading the Gospel and dismissing a potential army of workers who are able and capable because they are called and gifted by God. Yet you insist on overlooking and minimizing them because they happen to be women.
Amen to your reply, William.
“Yet you insist on overlooking and minimizing them because they happen to be women.”
You did not go far enough. The original comment actually denigrates women who have been empowered by the Spirit of God to be leaders. To attribute to “feminism” the work of the Holy Spirit is a mortal sin.
Jim,
You are correct. Jesus plainly called that blasphemy when the Pharisees accused Him of casting-out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. I try to refrain from using the term because Adventist eschatology has distorted the Biblical meaning (railing accusation) to be synonymous with the Papacy claiming to have the power of God and to stand in the place of God. Plus, I’ve been working to make my remarks more tactful.
Few readers understand what is the main focus of the GC Womens Ministries department, because we tend to look at this through Western eyes. Someone close to Yours Truly worked in that department for several years. Mostly they focus on improving the lot of women in third-world countries. Before you can enable women to be leaders, you have to address such basics as literacy because girls do not go to school in these places. Not to mention the lack of maternal health care in these same places. The lives of women are very cheap in some eyes.
So if Ardith Stenbakken was a “feminist” because she fostered these kinds of outreaches to women using church funds and talents, may the number of “feminists” willing to minister for Jesus Christ to “the least of these my sisters” increase!
I would respectfully suggest to Sunfish that you actually live as a woman in the parts of the world where the Adventist message is growing most rapidly. Then come back and report to us on what is the best way to minister to them.
Meanwhile please refrain from spitefully denigrating your “sisters in Christ”. After all, Ellen White herself left her young children in the care of others for months at a time while she pursued her own “feminist” ministry.
Let’s consider editing ad hominem out of the comments here. There is nothing to be gained and much to lose by engaging in such behavior.
It is perfectly within the commenting suggestions and good taste to offer that it is the opinion of the author that the church (we all) would benefit from having ‘more women who are concerned about the SDA family, about the responsibilities of mothers and wives. And it is appropriate to prod our thinking and memory with regard to the role of mothers and wives as depicted in Scripture and the writings of EGW.’ Followed by a supporting example or two of the realized benefits of such presentations.
Having launched with accusing two women as being ‘feminists’ totally depreciates the credibility of everything the writer offers in what follows. Indeed, the use of ad hominem in relating to the matter of the role of women in the church makes it much more likely that readers are turning away by having failed the challenge to get past a sense that this is but another self-permitting misogynist disrupting the conversation here … not that the author is.
I have not observed anything which refutes my assertion that the church generally has placed little or no emphasis on the roles of a wife and mother. NAD, if I recall correctly, has allocated $300,000 to encourage women in occupying pastoral positions. Why not allocate a similar amount to fostering a revival of the family unit. To merely echo feminist propaganda does nothing to advance the sacred calling of a woman as Mother and Wife. The books the Adventist Home and Child Guidance are excellent guides.
“the church generally has placed little or no emphasis on the roles of a wife and mother”
Tell that to Ron and Karen Flowers, or to Claudio and Pamela Consuegra, or to many more locally-focused marriage and family ministries sponsored by various SDA entities. As a life-long Adventist I can remember even as a child, people paid by “the conference” coming to visit our local churches and schools, teaching about marriage and family life.
http://family.adventist.org/
http://www.nadfamily.org/
Why do I suspect that none of this counts for Sunfish? Because it appears that what you are really after is someone who will “put women in their place” in the home without also “putting men in their place” in the home.
It takes a partnership to make a successful marriage and a successful family. Not a sole proprietorship – a partnership. I can tell you that both in business and in families, different partners may assume different roles. But when the unexpected occurs (and it always does) either partner must be committed to stepping-up to fulfill whatever role is needed to help the partnership succeed.
And I submit this notion of “partnership” also applies in churches. Pastors who view themselves as sole proprietors or managing partners, short-change themselves and their congregations.
(continued)
Now about those Women’s Ministries leaders you denigrate? You seem to be unwilling to accept or acknowledge that their primary purpose is to equip women to fulfill their roles as partners in the family and in the church, to the maximum extent of their potential.
If that is a “feminist” agenda, then the Holy Spirit is a “feminist”.
The budget of the Family Ministries Department is more than $300,000 and it’s goal is the revival of the Family. — Monte Sahlin, CEO, Adventist Today
Talk about ad hominem accusations what is an accusation about misogyny but an ad hominem attack?
Than word has been bandied about ad nauseam by the feminists and their supporters and has lost any valid meaning with respect to those who see too many defects in the feminist movement.
Sunfish,
How can you possibly be representing Jesus when you make such blatant attacks on women and diminish their potential for service to God? Jesus had a word for the railing accusations you have been making: blasphemy.
When is the church going to invest in the men? If the church only realized the tension and hard feelings behind closed doors on the home, it would never have tolerated this play for equality and power.
It’s definetly not about service.
A number of years ago, the new delegation of leaders was announced at the GC. One woman was announced and when she went up on the platform she waived her arm in defiant victory.
This power struggle in the church has to end!
Maybe we should take a look at some of the policies the LDS folk have. Woman know their place and honour their men!
I’m amazed that anyone would call a Women’s Ministry leader a feminist. Trust me–I have never known one that I would consider a feminist. The church set up the Women’s Ministries program to deflect interest from independent groups that were working to bring true equality to women in the SDA church, such as the Association of Adventist Women. Church leaders would not allow Women’s Ministries leaders to even discuss ordination, and carefully picked women who would be compliant, such as the conference president’s wife. Sufferingsunfish–spare me any discussion of women’s ministries promoting feminism. You are way off base.
Your really missing the point. Service is not the first priority of woman gunning for equal rights. It’s position and power.
Men are tired of this flaunting of power in the church. It’s time woman sit down and honour their men!
Time for a woman’s view.
Many of us are able to be effective wives, mothers AND leaders. We are called by God to do great things just like men who are husbands, fathers, and leaders. God wired us differently to give us a different perspective. If you exclude us from leadership you have cost the family of God a completeness He intended the church to have.
Isn’t leadership is just a code word for empowerment? Take a look at the book The Tip of An Iceberg by C. Raymond Holmes. Spiritual headship by males is firmly grounded in the Scriptures.
No one on this forum has satisfactorily explained why our church is *not* emphasizing the importance of women in the family but is spending thousands on promotion of women in pastoral positions.
Women’s Ministries does do that along with the family ministries in NAD and the GC. Adventist Review frequently prints articles for families. Do you have a subscription in addition to the World issue? Perhaps you do not know these things and should check them out before making such an inference that bears false witness.
Sunfish,
Apparently you do not understand the differences between service, leadership or headship. All who believe in Jesus are empowered by the Holy Spirit to serve others under His headship. That is the ONLY headship that matters because He is God. Some are called to leadership roles because of how the Holy Spirit has gifted them and some grow into it as they serve others and develop the gifts God has placed in them. Anyone who claims “male headship” for humans is a teacher of falsehoods because that is a role God reserves for Himself lest we be tempted to think we can speak with the authority of God.
Noel you’re dead wrong.
“Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
Ephesians 5:21-24 KJV
Sola,
Galatians 3:27-28 says God makes no distinction between male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free. Plus, the Holy Spirit is given to enable all to minister according to His wishes and His instruction is to regard all others as our equals.
Sola,
Here’s the real bottom line: Can you show us any evidence that your attitude is helping your church grow by creating new believers? I fear not because every church I have visited where your view is argued is at least struggling to survive, if not dying. But the churches that recognize the leadership of women who are gifted by the Holy Spirit and allow them to serve as they have been enabled are growing. So you have a choice: follow the obvious blessing of the Holy Spirit and be blessed, or watch your church die because of your separation from Him.
And many more aren’t! Since you brought up the subject, in the early church the woman did minister. They ministered to the make leaders and worked on the capacity exemplified by Dorcus.
God didn’t create woman to dominate men. He created woman to be by their side helping and loving them. Raising their family and teaching the children.
Many of the liberated equality minded woman in the church do not respect their husbands and only stay with them out of convenience. Many of these woman are either divorced or single. They struggle my their independence and the command to cleave to their husbands is a joke.
Which is more important to you. To strut your stuff up front rubbing your position you’ve robbed from a man in their face or to meekly and humbly serve God by being s faithful wife looking after your husbands needs and creating a loving home for him.
Do you not realize how foolish it looks for woman to take up the offering in church?
No you’re just presenting a case for power and position.
It’s a shame that woman don’t present themselves as the humble bride adorned for her husband. Instead they proudly push their way to the front.
It’s really sad!
Sola,
So, what do you make then of the fact that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured-out on both men and women and they each received massive empowerment to spread the Gospel without respect to gender? Are you implying that the women were less empowered? Are you saying the four prophet daughters of Philip mentioned in Acts 21-9 were not leaders in the church who were empowered by God?
Sola,
1) “God didn’t create woman to dominate men. He created woman to be by their side helping and loving them. Raising their family and teaching the children.”
Apparently King Lemuel was mistaken? Read Proverbs 31 again.
2) “Many of the liberated equality minded woman in the church do not respect their husbands and only stay with them out of convenience. Many of these woman are either divorced or single. They struggle my their independence and the command to cleave to their husbands is a joke.”
So women are to blame for divorce and single-parent families?
3) “Which is more important to you. To strut your stuff up front rubbing your position you’ve robbed from a man in their face or to meekly and humbly serve God by being s faithful wife looking after your husbands needs and creating a loving home for him.”
According to Jesus, nobody “owns” their position in in the church. We are all servants. How can I “rob” someone of something that is not theirs. Men who think they “own” their positions are robbing God.
4) “Do you not realize how foolish it looks for woman to take up the offering in church?”
No more foolish than men taking up the offering. In my church we reserve this privilege for children only.
5) “No you’re just presenting a case for power and position.”
Look carefully in your mirror.
(continued)
6) “It’s a shame that woman don’t present themselves as the humble bride adorned for her husband. Instead they proudly push their way to the front. ”
How did men manage to get to the front ahead of the women?
Sola, are you really serious or are you being sarcastic? If the former, what Scripture are you reading from? The Quran?
“Many women stay with their husbands out of convenience.”
So? All the women in Bible times and millennia afterward could only survive by either staying a daughter or with a husband. There was no other means of support. Is this your suggestion?
How many women have confided in you that is the only reason they are married? Would you suggest they divorce if “convenience” is the only reason to remain married?
Amen Trish… I also greatly appreciated the comments from Natasha Nebblett at the last GC session. Why does Adventist Today keep this subject covered in most editions even when the World church clearly voted against it? Christ or culture is a choice.
Just curious, Suffering, please give us your definition of feminism.
I hate to be a wet blanket, but the Bible is crystal clear on this topic… and I suspect everybody here knows it.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 teaches us plainly: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”
What precisely seems to be the controversy here? Or are you people trying to rewrite an inconvenient Biblical teaching? Nothing wrong with the latter, but at least be honest with yourselves and own it.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 too, in case the passage above isn’t clear enough: “34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
Either the push for the empowerment of women within the church is a PR move, or the Bible is wrong. You can’t have it both ways, so which is it?
Tim it’s very apparent that people who don’t follow the teachings of the bible go to other sources (ahem!) that are respected equal to the Bible.
They use the Bible to justify the writer twisting and misquoting scripture.
Instead of submitting to the word of God, they quote an author that used intimidation and fear tactics to brainwash the church. One common tactic was to say that if we opposed the writings we were in fear of the judgement.
If people studied their bibles and obeyed the word of God, this discussion would never even exist.
Satan used a woman to destroy the early church in Eden and he’s using women again today to bring down the church.
It’s time the church created a men’s ministries equal to what it’s given the woman.
“For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:”
1 Peter 3:5 KJV
Tim,
We’re doing a lot of talking past each other and there are two distinct issues that we need to separate.
First, Paul’s instructions for the women to be silent in church was an instruction given to restore order. It says nothing about women filling leadership roles in the church. Neither is there a word in any of Paul’s writings prohibiting women from leadership in the church.
Second, if God wanted to prohibit women from filling leadership roles in the church, why was the Holy Spirit poured-out on both men and women at Pentecost? Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3:28 that gender and social status are irrelevant to God when He decides what gifts to give to a person.
If having women in leadership roles is the will of God, there is nothing you can do about it, but if it is not, it will fail because the blessing of God is not on it, so you don’t need to fight it. More than that, when you complain about the prospect of women serving God in leadership roles, you’re actually opposing the working of the Holy Spirit and the railing accusations you and others are making is exactly the blasphemy that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 12:31-32. Are you willing to risk your salvation
I don’t know where you and suffering fish come from or what church you are part of, but it shouldn’t be the SDA Church that was founded and lead by a woman. If you believe those words apply now to this century, then you are being hypocritical by being an Adventist. This was actually the reason that a fundamentalist church I knew in the 70s did not join the SDA church–they believed many of the doctrines but couldn’t accept EGW as a leader because she was a woman. I think they eventually disbanded. They were in Pasadena, California.
Tim,
I’m not sure what happened, but my earlier reply to you got truncated.
Working in the power of the Holy Spirit was of paramount importance to Jesus and when he was accused of casting-out a demon by the power of the prince of demons, he correctly identified that charge as blasphemy. More than that, He declared that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgive. So when scripture makes no distinction in how the Holy Spirit empowers both men and women, your application of advice that Paul gave to one situation as a prohibition of what God empowers is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Are you willing to risk your salvation because you, like the Pharisees, are claiming that the working of God is the work of Satan? So I wish you regarded God with greater respect.
This conversation confirms my decision to withdraw my membership from the SAD Church a few years ago.
Feminism is responsible for obtaining basic human rights for women in America. Without feminism we women would not have the right to vote, the right to fair compensation for our work, the right to have control over our own bodies, and that most basic human right, the right to self-determination. The term feminism may have come to mean things other than this to you, but these things I listed are at the basis of women’s rights. Rights that I believe are Biblical.
Perhaps your own perceived waning of control over women should be examined. Anyone who objects to the equality of women is clearly afraid of what he might lose. Oh, and when putting money toward family ministries in the church you might first point the finger at the make side of the “problem.”
Sorry…..the MALE side of the problem.
The 14th Fundamental Belief of SDA Church makes all of us feminists. Read it carefully:
“The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Ps. 133:1; Matt. 28:19, 20; John 17:20-23; Acts 17:26, 27; Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Gal. 3:27-29; Eph. 2:13-16; 4:3-6, 11-16; Col. 3:10-15.)
The definition of Feminism in the Merriam-Webster dictionary is the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. Although feminism is defined by many different people in different ways, this is the general meaning of feminism and equality is the ultimate goal. There a many different types of people who identify as a feminist, Ellen White would have embraced the label! You shouldn’t feel excluded, C H I L L!
Having worked for several years as a volunteer for the GC Women’s Ministries, I can vouch for the nonpolitical, dedication of its staff and volunteers. They are people who love and care for the women of the world. I have had the honor of working with the Scholarshipping Our Sisters project which raises funds for women around the world to get scholarships for training and college in such vocations as nursing, teaching, women’s ministries, to name a few. If this makes me a feminist, I will take the label.
For those concerned about families, this project makes it possible for women to take care of their families.
As a women, I must say that we spend too much focusing on “equality” and not enough time asking, ” What does God what for me?” God gave us the paradigm under which to operate. Men and women are equal in the eyes of God, but with very different roles. We are the nurturers, the vessels God uses to bring forth life. We are multi-taskers and responsible for rearing the next generation. Men are the spiritual head of the home. That is biblical. True feminism means I am empowered to embrace my unique abilities as a woman without having to emasculate a man to do so or take over his role to feel equal to him.
Out of curiosity, RP, what do the bodily functions of a husband inseminating his wife and the wife carrying the baby have to do with spiritual things? You do realize those are two very different issues, right?
Kinda of like saying the physical form of how urine passes out of our different bodies are roles. Because it passes through in one form for the man, and a different form for the woman….
Genesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
I think the answer to your question about child birth and spiritual imperatives around this issue would be here.
What a crude response to a gentle observation.
The very function of intercouse represents the Union of the pennitant and Christ. The inflowing if semen represents the I filling if the Holy Spirit completing the spiritual Union. The very act brings new life found in the seed, the word of God.
You betray yourself by your comment. Have you never understood the spiritual meaning of Christ in you?
A man and woman can come no closer that when they express their love thru physical Union.
Unfortunately the intemacy has been replaced but toys found down at the local love shop.
The beauty of the marriage Union has become perverted to be no more than a good feeling.
By bringing worldly ideals into the church we commit fornication and teach adultery as a way of life.
Many woman seek this power trip because they’re unsuccessful in their marriage do they go out to emasculate the men in the church.
Teresa,
Great question! You’re revealing the ridiculous extremes to which some people will go to contrive “evidence” supporting arguments they cannot otherwise sustain.
RP-
You are absolutely correct and your approach is both sound and coherent with God’s plan for men and women in this sin sick world.
I have no doubt that there may well have been women at this gathering who feel as you do but are constrained to express similar views by the political correctness that so often prevails . Certainly there is a work women can do in advancing the gospel to all the world. Conspicuously absent from the report is any reference to the family and its needs.
Equal pay is not the issue as that was settled long ago by the Merikay lawsuit. That suit should never have been necessary. Long before that suit I and others were totally in favor of equal pay for equal work.
What does gender equality mean in the context of the article which I have to assume reflects the sense of the gathering? Armed Forces experiments have demonstrated that men are physically stronger that women. So much for the alleged equality promoted by the feminists and their supporters. Unfortunately, the objectives depicted appear to be more from the playbook of worldly feminists than women who are intent on being good mothers and wives. No one has shown that there is a scintilla of emphasis on the attributes that EGW depicts in Adventist Home and Child Guidance. How sad.
EGW did encourage women to work. How do you suppose the female physicians she encouraged would minister or any other vocation? Your bias is so strong it appears to ignore common sense. EGW herself had children and foster children she cared for while carrying on a very busy schedule.
Most of these discussions ASSUME that all women are wives or mothers. Today, there are more single, unmarried, divorced, or widowed who do not fit into those categories; just as all men are not fathers. Women should have fulfilling wives outside of wife or mother and even with children, they leave the nest and women are living more than half their lives not limited to motherhood.
No husband needs 100% percent of his wife’s time devoted to his “care and upkeep.” All men should be able to fully function without a mother or wife’s care, or else he will find himself unexpected helpless someday. Men are lonely without a woman and often find when suddenly living alone that a quick marriage give a long time for regret.
I am curious–where do you think that leaves women and men who can’t or don’t marry? They are already socially isolated in many churches. What is their great purpose or fulfillment?
My note was meant to go to RP and others who limit women to housewives and mothers. (I am not sure how this “reply” works as I don’t see who it goes to in the print-out.) I can’t imagine such lack of empathy in today’s world with so many women (grandmothers included) raising children out of necessity and having to work. My other question is how do you judge those who do not marry?
Afraid he can’t handle it, huh?
We love the staff and volunteers, they create many hard works that will last forever. They are stored in Heaven.
The 14th Belief is explicit. Our differences must not be divisive among us. We must serve without partiality or reservation.
“Historically, women have held very few leadership positions in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Currently, there is a growing need in the church for more women to be involved at the leadership level.” This is a statement from the six challenge issues stated by the Women’s Ministry. Would someone like to explain how this statement fits in the 14th Belief (or any of this in the 6, 7, 11 or 14)? This organization has definitely failed to do so.
Oh, the second definition for feminism in Webster is “organized activity on behalf of women’s rights and interests”. I think this would be the appropriate one; definitely with individual interests and not that of the body of the Church.
Bill said it best (for different intent), this is all ad hominem. The article, the actions, the results, the comments…. Why is there an effort to degrade the works and remembrance of Deborah or Ellen; in attempt to relate anything to this? Why do we try to associate the good works of groups to the individual works of individuals? Did sufferingsunfish need a second witness? These individuals are their own second witness; by action and statement.
Eventually we will either serve HIM or answer to HIM.
We are unable to get our own house in order, yet wish to lead and guide others; including other Countries? We are unable to pay for or help ourselves; yet think we can help others?
There are many valuable works for HIM to be done; but we do not place focus on those. We have many that continue and sacrifice to make sure those works happen, while we only hinder; within individual ideologies, and yet continuing to wish to be part of the Body.
My wife says to read Psalms 45, the wedding song. Many will never experience the True Blessings of surrender; to their husbands, Church, those in HIS Body or even HIM. Maybe you can come up with excuses along the line; but the buck does stops somewhere along the way. Many will never experience what it means to Love as CHRIST; again with multitudes of excuses. Somewhere along the way, excuses become responsibility and accountability. How many excused do you think HE will entertain?
Many will never experience HIS True Blessings of being part of a body in life. Then their life will end and will have only one place to go; HE will put them there. They will never experience Love; because of themselves. Those are the ones my wife holds sympathy for; because of their thoughts of self salvation and lack of Faith to place themselves into HIS arms.
Are our children not worthy of more than this? Have they not always been? Why are they and others within Love not our focus? What have we become?
You said: Many will never experience what it means to Love as CHRIST; What a statement! With your lack of empathy and understanding, you fit that category! BTW how do you judge those who have never married? Do they get the harshness of your judgment as well?
Name one article in the Review or Adventist World within the last 6 months that emphasized the role of women as wives and mothers. Many of us know that Knott is all tied up with the women’s movement.
We see an undue(?) emphasis on young people but where do we view any concern for latch key kids whose mothers *must* have a career whether a second income is necessary or not?
How old are you, Suffering? (And do you have a real name?) A second income is necessary for nearly all households during at least a part of the 24 or so years of a child’s upbringing. And has been necessary for the past 30 or so years.
Wisdom, you are condescending and judgemental. Accusing me of not knowing the joy of a Christian marriage because of my “individual ideology.” And using your wife against me.
So disappointing and so un-Christ like.
I did not accuse you, individually or severally, of anything. My wife just stated she felt sorry for those outside of HIS Plan and the Joys and Blessings they miss. Maybe you judge yourself within your own conviction?
There are multitudes of households where the wife does not have a job. There may be sacrifices in such choice, but there are many Blessings. Are our children not worth some sacrifice? Is HE not worth some sacrifice?
You stated you were no longer SDA, You state “Anyone who objects to the equality of women is clearly afraid of what he might lose.”; yet you discriminate at absolute. My wife has the right to her voice. I fought for her and you to have that privilege. I would stand up and fight for that again; but not for the right to discriminate within individual ideologies or outside the bounds of Religious Liberty. There is absolutely no Right or privilege to tear down the Civil Rights of others.
You state “Rights that I believe are Biblical.” Maybe you can explain or prove such, verses stating individual ideologies. Otherwise you sound more like the liberals in Isaiah 32 and with Jude 1 the resultant; while my wife sounds like those trying to teach the works of righteousness. I hope you find the strength and beacon that you need, not that which you want and are looking for. One that will lead you to HIM; in all aspects of life.
Two incomes are required for most of the average households today? If the average household would be much more prudent in its expenditures as well as foregoing luxuries like smart phones for their kids many could get along on one income. It takes effort and a real desire to go sans luxuries. We have been there and done that! With no assistance from either the government or church. It meant our kids were not latch key kids and the benefits that derive from such a household.
On another subject — if I were the Moderator certain obscene remarks would be removed.
Yawn…what a waste of money…….women are not the most unreached/helped people group in the church….why this obsession over helping women…their numbers are fine…….men and our boys on the other hand are disappearing at an increasing rapid rate……who is saying anything about this? Why are our leaders absolutely silent on this?
O’ ye great and mighty carrier of the phallus. That is your only claim to fame. Unless of course you have both sex organs?? Paul was a misogynist of the first order. What was his problem?? What was the thorn in his side?? Did he hate his mother?? Was his manhood of small returns?? Was he homosexual?? Is there a psychiatrist handy to estimate his problem with women?? Today there are many more households without a Father in the home, approx 65%. Who must be the priest in those homes, the odd guy who happens to drop by occasionally?? The woman EVE was deceived. It was the man Adam, who was not deceived, but chose the woman instead of the Creator God, therefore Adam was first the sinner, without deception!!!!. The Bible has much intrigue, melodrama, personal bias’s, fables, intended misinformation, and masterful deception, to lead mankind into believing a word for word literal
truth, along with a small amount of “inspired wisdom”, and woe to the man unable to pick the pearls of Wisdom, from the propagandized whole presentation. Shame on all female hating men from Mars.
How sad to see such derogatory statements about the GC Women’s Ministries department and what they are doing to bring blessing and healing to the hurting women of the world. I am deeply disappointed that I can’t share this post with my facebook group – Women of Faith and Excellence – who represent hundreds of women all over the world. The comments are too harsh and absolutely untruthful and show a discriminatory and cruel attitude towards a part of the Adventist church that has proved its value and shown what a magnificent ministry it has. WM worldwide has seen thousands of people baptised, marriages and homes revitalised, abused women and children saved, young women educated and many more liberated to be all that God intended them to be. Having been part of Women’s Ministries as a conference and division director, I know the value of Women’s Ministries. I live now and have lived in other so-called developing countries and understand the importance of having a strong Women’s Ministries programme. If that gives me the label ‘feminist’ I am very proud to have it. I believe Jesus would be glad to wear it too.
Amen Joy! May your tribe increase!
As stated, we Love and cherish those in this organization that are about HIS business. Again you state Women’s Ministries is a part (and is only a part) of the Adventist Church; they need to remember that. They rely upon the support and strong foundation of the Church. They then should display the face and wishes of the Church; not their individual ideologies.
This organization was created as a charity arm, to feed, clothe and educate; to relieve the hurt. Not to promote ideologies outside the bounds of the BIBLE or Church. They, as well as you in claimed representation, should understand that.
Please provide the untruthful statements and proof; you provide neither. You seem to want to take credit for all the good you see, did you want to give HIM and others he sent to help a little credit in that. Did you want to take credit for the bad also?
Was your intent to plug your facebook group; to further promote your cause? Maybe you and WM should use this claim in representation to teach our children in Titus 2; since such is commanded by HIM as HIS cause? As stated above we have failed families, failing churches and little praise, gratitude or reverence for or commanded by HIM. Do you think that maybe you are only furthering the problem you are trying to fix by not fixing the problem created by failures to start with? Now you want another job?
Works are difficult; they shows us the value of the sacrifice required by HIM and others.
Wisdom,
You wrote ” They then should display the face and wishes of the Church; not their individual ideologies.” Well, they are displaying the face and wishes of the Church. It is you and others who oppose the ordination of women as pastors who are painting with such a broad brush that you oppose all women in all leadership positions as if they were going to be ordained as pastors! So you’re straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
The apostle Paul describes the church as a body with many parts performing diverse functions, all of which work together in harmony and where the greater parts respect and love the lesser parts. In contrast, such broad-brush and gross disrespect for the service of those who are gifted by the Holy Spirit to perform very specific ministries is not just offensive, it is a blasphemous assault on the working of the Holy Spirit that Jesus declared in Matthew 12:31 would NEVER be forgiven. Does your respect for God’s Word include taking that verse seriously, too?
I have met several of the women who are leaders in Women’s Ministries and I respect each of them for how they are using the gifts the Holy Spirit has given them. So I wish you would stop endangering your salvation with your continued criticisms and embrace the reality that the time the Holy Spirit will continue appealing to your heart is being limited by your disrespect for His power and authority.
“Please provide the untruthful statements and proof”
Wisdom,
You need to look closely and honestly into your own mirror. You have hurled shameful and spiteful accusations here against the Lord’s servants. Yet you have offered no evidence in support of your claims, only your own negative opinions. Is the Devil only the accuser of the “brethren” but not of the “sisteren”. Beware, lest you be found “working for the Lord like the Devil”.
Joy,
Thank you for sharing! We need to hear more about what God is doing through the ministry of women, both to celebrate what God is doing and so the voices of critics will be overcome by the weight of evidence that refutes their powerless whining.
Isn’t it amazing how some commenters her just know how everyone else should run their lives?
Did God make all of us the same, with the same abilities and the same opportunities? Yet some here claim to be able to discern whether others they have never met, are living “within” or “outside” of “God’s plan”. I am glad that some of you are confident that you are living “within God’s plan”. But that does not mean that someone who has made different life choices or confronted different life circumstances, is living “outside God’s plan”. How do you know with any degree of certainty that God has the same plans for everyone, or everyone of your gender, or of the opposite gender?
As I have previously suggested, you might want to review Proverbs 31. This woman had a major economic role in her family.
Those who consider Ellen White to be inspired, might want to review the history of her marriage and family life. Were her marriage and family life like yours (or your spouses)? Does (or did) God want the mother in your home to leave your young children in the care of friends for many months at a time, while she travels (or traveled) all over the place on Church business? Was God’s plan for Ellen’s family the same as for yours? Or if you are “inside” God’s plan does that mean Ellen was “outside”?
Jim,
I guarantee somebody read that last post and then prayed for you, imagining that they know some truth that you don’t. 😉
Anyhow, this whole thing is terribly amusing. Of course men and women should be equally able to live their lives in any way they see fit, which, naturally, includes career choices. The only people for whom this is even a point of contention are the religious when they very amusingly try to square bronze age writings with the modern world.
The Bible very clearly, very explicitly states, perhaps most unambiguously of all it’s “teachings,” that women are to be wholly subservient to men in church and only slightly less so in the home (where they can at least ask questions). Since this overtly ridiculous philosophy is bad for the SDA business model and can’t be squared with the modern world, people are scrambling for alternative explanations… my personal favorite being the notion that EGW supercedes the Bible in this domain. The Bible is the inalterable, infallible word of God… except when it isn’t, apparently.
Love the debate, and I especially love the way half the people here think they have some unique insight into the wishes of a magical space zombie, so much so that they’re admonishing one another. Keep it up. 😉
The idea that women have to prove something, anything, to us as men in ministry (or in any other thing) is totally absurd. The example of Deborah’s life and ministry speaks for itself.Deborah became a well-known and well-respected individual among her people. Daily she sat beneath a palm tree in the mountains of Ephraim, giving her decisions on matters that the people brought before her. She helped settle disputes, gave wise counsel and maintained the balance between her life as judge and as a married woman.
Deborah was also a prophetess. She heard the voice of the Lord, speaking His words to the people of Israel during a time when no other could hear His voice. That included Barak, the commander of the Israelite army. God had already spoken, commissioning Barak to lead his troops against the king of Canaan. God had promised to deliver Sisera, and the iron chariots, and the multitudes in the Canaanite army, into Barak’s hands. But his hesitation proved to be a lack of faith in the words of God. Deborah summoned Barak and confronted him for not responding to what the Lord had commanded him to do. But Barak’s lack of faith was further evidenced by his unwillingness to go into battle without Deborah’s leadership. Deborah agreed to go with him with the promise that the victory of Israel would be at the hand of a woman, not at his.
Deborah stood as a pillar among both men and women. She still stands as a Godly example for women today, inspiring us mean as well.
Sam-
I really see no relationship to your post and why the SDA church is placing so little emphasis on the home and the role of the mother and wife.
…fish
Are you so blind to the works of God that all you can do is complain and condemn? Do no words come from your keyboard that do not blaspheme those whom God has called to leadership roles in the church?
Sam,
Are women equal to men?
William Abbott asked me on April 17, 2016 at 6:44 pm “Sam, Are women equal to men?”
You can write a law so it doesn’t distinguish between male and female in its wording, but that’s not the same thing. Gender being irrelevant is not the same as both genders being “equal”, a distinction that needs to be made in order to avoid people attacking gender differences.
Men and women are equal in a natural sense, meaning that they both contribute to the continuation of the species and deserve the same rights and liberties. No person deserves to have a lesser status because of their gender, which is not a choice, but an uncontrollable characteristic. However men and women are not treated equally everywhere in the world, so although I believe they are equal in nature they do not receive treatment indicative of that everywhere unfortunately.
Scripture consistently reveals that God created male and female as co-equals in their standing before Him.
It is important to begin where the Bible itself begins — in the Garden of Eden, prior to the Fall. It is here that we see a picture of manhood and womanhood before sin entered the world. Adam and Eve were created in God’s image, equal before God as persons, yet distinct in their manhood and womanhood. Genesis 1:27 declared that God made man in His own image as male and female. In the sight of God they were equal, not in form, nor in function, but in essence. Neither had more or less value in their standing before their Creator.
Sam,
You sum up your post in answer to my question, “Are women equal to men?” by writing: “In the sight of God they were equal, not in form, nor in function, but in essence. Neither had more or less value in their standing before their Creator.” Your understanding is Adam and Eve, and by extension all men and women, have equal value to God. You also state, “Scripture consistently reveals that God created male and female as co-equals in their standing before Him.”
There is nothing controversial about your two statements these days. But historically, almost all Christians would mystified at you finding this biblical truth about equality to be self-evident. How is it that for hundreds, yea, thousands of years, Christians and Jews understood from scripture the place of woman in relationship to man was one of subordination and inequality? Even Jesus Christ in his discourses on divorce, adultery and celibacy uses the language of inequality. And in those discourses He refers to how it was in the beginning – holding the beginning up as an ideal – and yet very definitely assigns no initiating role to women in any of these relational matters.
If the truths of scripture are eternal and self-evident, how can all the believers who came before us be so blind as to think the bible consistently teaches something completely contrary to the co-equality of woman and man?
I want to thank you for answering my question.
Jim, my wife said you missed the first part of King Lemuel’s mothers prophecy in Proverbs 31; your part:
1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
You obligate all of us to open our mouths and try to save you from destruction, because you are drunk with the cause; any cause. Are you pleading for the poor and needy that these folks and our funds should be helping?
I still see those judging the conviction and works of Deborah, Ellen and others, attempting to relate such to the convection and actions of those in this article. This judgement belongs to GOD, everything belongs to GOD.
The only blasphemes and blindness I see are those in Titus 2. Those failing to teach our children and teach others the same; then those failing to rebuke and yet complain.
Wisdom,
Spoken like a true Pharisee.
Even Satan knows how to quote scripture to deceive and attack believers. It seems all you do is criticize, accuse and blaspheme. When are we going to see words from you celebrating the great works of God that He has begun doing through you because you have learned to love others, uplift the weak and strengthen your brothers? Victory over sin does not come through attacking the wrong and condemning the person doing it, but by you being an example to them of how to overcome so they will be encouraged to believe and follow. When will we see such an example from you?
I get *such* a kick out of your condescension toward others, particularly relating to their lack of divine insight with respect to yours. 😉
Keep it up. You’re an outstanding, exemplary SDA, in whom I’m sure the Lord is well pleased. 😉
Tim,
Having a testimony about the power of God, having actual experience with the leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, stands in great contrast with those who have a form of godliness but none of the power. I will gladly celebrate with anyone about how God has been leading and guiding them.
Condescending? A lot of people posting here act like they know God but they know theology instead of enjoying an empowered relationship with Him. So if I’m condescending, I’m just following the example of Jesus when He challenged those who were long on theology but short on experience with God and empty of the power of the Holy Spirit.
William,
“Having a testimony about the power of God, having actual experience with the leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, stands in great contrast with those who have a form of godliness but none of the power.”
LOL.. that’s exactly what I’m talking about. 😉
“A lot of people posting here act like they know God but they know theology instead of enjoying an empowered relationship with Him.”
Aaaaand example #2. So you’re astoundingly condescending *and* lack personal insight, apparently. Love the combination. 🙂
GEN.1 is the first detailed description of the Creation, and Gen.2 is an ad-libbed presentation by a different scribe of the same event. A chosen scribe inspired by the Godhead would not have been so careless in relating “TRUTH”. However, the point is non-relative as the issue is an allegory. An attempt to inform mankind of his begining; to know he is descended from a Master Creator of the Universe. “The heavens declare the glory of the Eternal God”. The mishmash of Biblical fairy tales reads little different belief than the Mormon saga of the wild west Indian tribes which have no other history.
“Look up and know IAM; I created you; You are mine”; Look up for I’AM responsible
for your eternal soul, I will not forsake you. I will restore you to My eternal Spiritual Kingdom. I created you in love. In love i have rescued you from a sinful world. You are the Apple of my eye. Look up for your Redemption draweth nigh.
Earl, do you not attempt to separate in mutual exclusion that which is actually joined and a part of HIM? Is the alternate assumption that HE cannot protect HIS WORD? Were the first 6 days not the creation of heaven and earth; and assigned dominions?
Genesis 1:
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
He created the living things of the earth.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Is this not the creation of the image; the good of the soul? That which lasts forever, from our choice?
Is Chapter 2 not just a continuance? From dust of the earth and the Breath of Life; did man not become a living soul? Did HE not already know that man would need a help meet?
Your last paragraph paints the beautiful picture of what we lost, told in the rest of the BIBLE; because of our actions. But HIS infinite Love is still there for us; with our plea,
One of the difficulties with this whole discussion is that it has been dominated by slogans and ideological agendas. Presumably, no one denies that there are biologic, anthropologic, emotional, and intellectual differences between men and women that have profound functional significance. The fact that these differences exist along a spectrum and may have exceptions doesn’t change the reality or the importance of familial norms in male-female relationships. Male-female roles are not interchangeable. A woman cannot choose both a career and family without making trade-offs.
I have four daughters and one daughter-in-law, all of whom have post-graduate professional degrees and are mothers. Three of them have chosen to give up their professional careers to be full time mothers. They never thought they would want to do so. But having babies completely changed their priorities. The fourth, who has a medical career (10 years of post-graduate training) and loves her job, does not want to be a full-time mom, but would love to be working a lot less than she is so she could devote more time to mothering. The fifth just had her first baby, and would love not to have to return to work, despite the fact that she loves her job. I know of countless professional women who would love to be stay-at-home moms, but are not prepared to make the lifestyle sacrifices that such a choice would demand.
Continued…
Face it. Women are wired very differently than men. Praise the Lord! Few are suited to full time gospel ministry as that calling has traditionally been defined in the Adventist church. Are there women who are so called? Of course! There are women who love to watch professional football and play golf. But it is pure fantasy to suggest to women that a full time career and a family do not necessitate difficult choices and trade-offs that men do not have to face.
Most educated couples today begin their marriage as a two-income family. Pay off school debts, buy a home, and then have children. By the time kids come along, unless the husband has a steeply increasing income curve, the family income will take a big hit if mom quits her job to raise kids. So they get grandma to help out; they get a reliable sitter; and they find a good pre-school. I don’t condemn that. I just think that arrangement puts an additional strain on the family. And I think, other things being equal, it would be better if women who want to have children didn’t have to “abandon” their babies during the formative years for a career. I know a lot of fine young women lawyers who are mothers of young children. I have never spoken to one of them who doesn’t wish she could practice law a lot less and spend more time with her kids.
I have nothing against supporting women in the ministry. But in doing so, let’s not abandon common sense experience and understanding of maternal instinct and human nature.
Well said Nathan.
We are a team; partners. Here is a beautiful song representing that:
Judges 5:12 “Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.”
We wish to use Ellen for other purposes, maybe we should look at those things that really brought to us? “And I have inquired: Does God require so much of us, and leave others without burdens? Is this equality?”. This was her statement in watching others not execute their duties, while her burdens and requirements were heavy; having to rely on others. True inequality.
She presented the requirements and failures in raising children back then; didn’t seem to help, then or now:
(The Signs of the Time, March 11, 1886, Parental Responsibility)
She presented the mutual (but separate) obligations:
(The Adventist Home, page 114, Chapter 17, Mutual Obligations.)
Should the focus of this group not be to do and teach such? Otherwise what is their purpose in Love?
Maybe we should push for more red haired or green eyed people in leadership? I should be able to propose that non-indiscriminately, since I am neither. Maybe we should just read our BIBLES and not discriminate against HIS Plan; since submission and humility would dictate that we are and have nothing to offer without HIM?
(Sorry about not being able to post links, but there still could be copyright issues with the EGW Estate; but the documents are available online to look at).
Wisdom,
You keep talking about “HIS plan.” Would you mind telling us specifically what is your concept of “HIS plan” so we can know what you’re talking about? You ask what is a person’s purpose in love? How about giving us some evidence that you have actual experience in ministering God’s love to others in ways that changes lives? Without those things, your words are like those of a man who thinks standing in a garage makes him a car, or that he can fly by flapping his arms.
Finally a question.
GOD’s Love belongs to HIM; not us. HIS Love is a Gift; we are only the unworthy recipients. Love is always a gift, providing when and what is needed; without expectations of return or self assumed privilege in such.
1 John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
We are not so vain or naive to think that we minister GOD’s Love. We do not divvy out HIS Love or forgiveness, or change lives; HE does that. We understand that we are only HIS servants; without worldly demands or resolutions.
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
You state that both my wife, I and all represents are like pharisees, but do not Love us enough to admonish us in scripture; so that we might learn? Christ quoted scripture when tested by satan; yet you call us like satan, needing not the protection of the Word?
Are you the part described in last of 2 Timothy 3 or the first? Do you know and use the Holy Scriptures or do you hate doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction?
Matthew 23:23 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
Wisdom,
You head is lost in the clouds of facts about God and what you’ve heard about how He works, but your feet are nowhere near the ground. You have no testimony showing that it actually works in your life, so how can you expect anyone to believe a word you say? The power of God is not found in how many Bible texts you can cut-and-paste, it is found in your testimony about how God has changed you and how He is using you to touch others with His love. Go and learn how to do that. Then you’ll have something substantive to share.
My current testimony to you is that I am working on the manuscript for a book about my decade of gift-based ministry experience. It is my sixth book effort with three published and one waiting to be released. I started work on it a couple years ago but after a couple months God told me to lay it aside, that the time was not right for it yet. Several months ago He began impressing me to put-down what I was working on and start on it again. I started serious work on it less than two weeks ago and yesterday started on the final chapter. I am praising God because that is the fastest I have ever seen a book come together. Friends who are authors are amazed and exclaiming that it is obvious God is working.
It is because of my experience with God that I keep telling you to be quiet and get actual ministry experience with Him so your words can be credible and applicable.
William Noel, please keep us in the loop as to how your current projects in writing are coming along.
Your wisdom and comments are insightful and helpful. We may not always agree but I look for your comments as special gifts to all of us in the AT community. Thank you!
William – I wish to take nothing away from your testimony to God’s work through your life, as well as your sensitivity and responsiveness to the leading of His Spirit. But if such a surrendered life was a precondition to offering insights and opinions on this website, you would probably have no one to converse with. I know I wouldn’t qualify.
I believe it is often fair to attack or critique an opinion on the basis that the person espousing it is being hypocritical or duplicitous. But that is different from suggesting that a commenter’s post or ideas do not deserve consideration unless the commenter first offers a “C.V.” to demonstrate his/her worthiness – spiritual bona fides, as it were.
You and I agree on much, William, and I have great admiration for what God has done through your life. Certainly your experience is at times relevant to your opinions and ideas. But not always. Generally speaking, I feel that ideas should stand on their own merits. There are plenty of villains and scoundrels who espouse noble values and can articulate them persuasively. By the same token, there are highly moral, deeply spiritual, caring people whose ideas I find, at best, naive and misguided.
So I’m not sure what your point is in demanding that folks “witness” to the power of God in their lives before they presume to enter into an exchange of ideas. It strikes me as unseemly and inappropriately pious. What am I missing?
Nathan,
I appreciate your brotherly admonition and wish you God’s greatest blessings in your continued work for Him.
Scripture makes it clear that followers of Jesus will be known by what they share about their experience with Him. Wisdom makes endless and obtuse attacks on everyone as if he were authorized to point-out our sins and call us to repentance when he knows nothing about us individually. So I’m just taking him to task for accusing others all the time when he can’t show us he has any experience with God to give him credibility when he accuses. In law, I believe you call that impeaching a witness. I hope I’m not perceived as implying that against anyone else.
While this website is not a court of law, William, it might be helpful for you to understand that evidence to impeach a witness is generally only admissible if it consists of a prior inconsistent statement made by the witness. There are exceptions, but you can’t impeach a witness by insinuations impugning the witness’s character for charity, generosity or spiritual probity.
I am not at all fond of comments which triumphantly spew out Bible quotes as a sort of Kryptonite that is supposed to somehow end debate, and leave the opponent quivering in defeat. I do not ever bother to read comments which consist of a series of proof texts. But as I said, I don’t believe that a person’s failure to live up to his stated moral code should call either the validity of that code or the person’s belief in that code into question. And I particularly do not believe the burden should be on the person espousing a moral or theological belief to disprove an insinuation that he/she may not live up to that belief.
Centuries ago, Francois Duc De la Rochefoucauld famously opined that hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue. If a position taken by another is truly virtuous or true, but doesn’t support the inference being drawn, why not simply point out the non sequitur rather than unnecessarily tarnishing the moral observation with the supposed character flaws of the person weaponizing the moral principle?
Charity is to be in silence; yet you wish to write in a book and sell it? How does this help anyone but you? We are suppose to even pray in silence.
Matthew 6:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
GOD wrote a very good book; it’s called the BIBLE. It’s the denominations only creed. You should read it some time.
John 5:
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
The world is evil and GOD is great; my testimony, always.
2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in…
Wisdom,
My book is not about charity, but about active ministry. The first result of every miracle Jesus performed was an improvement in the recipient’s life and my ministry improves lives by improving how people live, so it is in the manner of Jesus. Yet you think to lecture me about charity? Obviously you neither know what you’re talking about, or care what anyone else says.
You suggest that I read the Bible sometime. Well, I do to learn about the God who loves me, not to look for verses to lob at others like rocks. Apparently you missed the part where Jesus said we would be his witnesses. A witness testifies about what they have seen and heard and touched and witnesses for Jesus testify about how the power of God has changed their life. But since all you do is throw obtuse charges and cut-and-paste Bible passages at others and share not a word of testimony about how God has worked in your life. So, according to scripture, it appears you are not allowing God to do the work in you that He wants to do. Plus, the way you’re always accusing everyone of every possible sin is making Satan seem smart because at least he knows how to use scripture with some accuracy and applicability.
Acts 1:
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The last words of CHRIST on earth, before HE was taken up. The Holy Ghost is from the FATHER, through which you are a witness unto CHRIST. None of this has anything to do with or about you.
You call my wife, I, Churches, communities and the vast majority of the denomination in represent; like of pharisees, blasphemers and satan, because you don’t get your way. We take such accusations and charges very seriously; but we have tolerance. You are unable to quote Scripture, postulate, state a point, stand or provide proof anything. You are not the center of the universe and at some point in time you may come to the realization you are the problem and everyone else has Love for you; but right now you are unable to feel that as the receptor. HE can change that if you ask.
2 Timothy 3:15 “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Wisdom,
The Holy Spirit is the heart and power of my ministry. God uses me to demonstrate His love in action so that people are drawn to Him by encountering power that is beyond human ability. That causes them to fall in love with Him and want to study scripture.
I meet people all the time who are turned-off like a light switch by anyone quoting scripture, but when they meet the love of God, when my team does things for them that are accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit with a kindness and power that is beyond human ability, they are drawn to fall in love with Him. That is when they begin loving scripture because it tells them about the God they have seen in others, the God who loves them.
You are at least partly right in one thing: I think you and a lot of others have the gospel process Jesus modeled backward. Jesus didn’t tell His followers to preach first, but to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, drive-out demons and raise the dead. It was by those powerful acts of love that they were drawn to Him and became willing to listen to His teaching, which was the LAST thing He did, not the first.
Love people first, show them how you apply the principles of God’s kingdom in your life and deeds and they have a hard time resisting Him. But shower them with Bible verses and they will flee like a flock of birds even if you’re carrying a bag of seed for them to eat because they see you as one who only condemns instead of uplifts.
This is the value of ‘Wisdom’s’ frequent citation and quoting of Scripture: at least we know that he or she is not making it up; and what they post is actually true.
William Noel says that “Scripture makes it clear that followers of Jesus will be known by what they share about their experience with Him.” I am not at all sure that this is actually true—and in fact doubt that it is true.
On the other hand, I am quite certain that Scripture makes it clear that followers of Jesus will be known by the love that they have for one another; because that is what John 13:35 actually says.
Stephen,
You are half right and half wrong. People who have met Jesus can’t stop talking about the impact He’s had in their life, but the people who haven’t met Him can only toss Bible verses at others.
Yes, the followers of Jesus will be known by the love they have for one another. Merely throwing Bible verses at people and making endless, obtuse charges of sin is not love. Actually doing things the way Jesus did where the power of the Holy Spirit is obvious is the love He told us to practice. That’s why I’m writing a book about it. That’s why I’m seeing it come together faster than I’ve ever seen a book project develop, a few weeks instead of a year or longer.
When are we going to hear you start talking about your experiences with the power of God in loving ministry to others? That’s the “being witnesses” Jesus was talking about in Acts 1:8. You doubt what I say because you haven’t let the power of God work in you.
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me”
Stephen, these words came from Jesus, not William 8-).
Jim,
As opposed to what followers of Jesus say about themselves and about what they have done for Christ—or even through Christ—it is the power of the Holy Ghost itself that enables, empowers, and that is indeed the witness …the evidence, if you will…that we have had an experience with Jesus.
Yes, it is witnessing about our individual experiences that can and does cause others to want to have that experience and (more importantly) relationship with Jesus; but scripture does not make it clear that followers of Jesus will be known by what they share about their experience with Him.
Scripture (citing Jesus’ words) does make it perfectly clear that followers of Jesus will be known by the love that they have for one another. That fact is undeniable; as is the fact that when Jesus returns, ‘Christians’ will be reminding Jesus of the things that they have done in His name—things they have actually done, mind you—and will fail to impress Him.
So I simply disagree. It cannot possibly the telling of others about what we have done for Christ, or even in His name, that determines how we will be known. No way, no shape, no how.
Correction: It cannot possibly be the telling of others about what we have done…
Stephen,
People who are actually doing the things God wants them to do in the power of the Holy Spirit have a testimony to share about the power of God working through them. The people who aren’t doing those things are the ones who try to discredit the obedient as they try to avoid the guilt they are feeling because of their disobedience.
Stephen,
Your claimed basis for discrediting others exists only in your imagination. I have told you precious little about what I have seen God do through me and, assuming you actually read my book when it is published, you will discover that it is not about what I have been doing, but about how the Holy Spirit works and what God has been doing. I just have the privilege of being a servant He has chosen to use as His hands and to use me as a channel through which His power can flow to touch others. So it isn’t a testimony about me, but about Him. But you don’t believe me, so you’ll just have to wait for the book to come out.
Stephen, you really need to be more careful about casting doubts on a testimony about the working of the Holy Spirit. You’re sounding an awful lot like the Pharisees when they accused Jesus of casting-out a demon by the power of the prince of demons in Matthew 12:22-28. He said such accusations were blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and would not be forgiven (v31). So when you express doubt about whether the Holy Spirit is working through me, you are blaspheming Him and you will have to answer to God in the judgement for that sin. Please, be more respectful of God and what He is doing.
And I guess we assume that Stephen’s Holy Spirit means nothing in your little world? You need to get whatever you got in you out; soon.
Of course this now descends into silliness. William, I challenged the veracity of yet another of your erroneous statements, that “Scripture makes it clear that followers of Jesus will be known by what they share about their experience with Him;” and corrected it with what Scripture actually does say about how followers of Jesus will be known.
Frankly, I have no doubt at all about the power of God to use any willing vessel; but I do have considerable and well-founded doubts about the veracity of much of what you say. (You have an unfortunate track record.)
Although Jesus is our perfect Example, you might want to be careful about equating the things that you do and say with the things that Jesus said and did.
Tim, glad you find humor in this conversation. I find humor when you state it that way. Ive been absent for the last week because these men judging me and my spirituality and that of my brothers and sisters who stand with me is very upsetting. (They will probably use that to prove that my heart isn’t with God’s plan.).
One of the vocal no names suggested I was obscene and should be deleted. Hmmmm. Can’t stand to be confronted.
Here is my answer. My husband, who proudly calls himself a feminist says that this will be an issue plaguing the church until this generation dies off. Then, maybe, women will be safe in the SDA Church. They certainly are not now.
Is that too obscene?
CMagi,
Sometimes I think there is a lot of truth in the observation about the older generation needing to die-off before there can be real change in the church. Then I look in the mirror and see how the color of my hair is changing, or at my wife whose hair has gone completely white. We’re both in our 60s now, so I have to admit we’re not as young as we used to be. Still, when I see the changes God has worked in me over the years I want to worship Him for working such a transformation in me. However, rigid orders of worship prevent a person from expressing such adoration to God, so there is great need for change. But I doubt that change will happen until more people have fallen more deeply in love with God than with their powerless forms of godliness.
There are several things to consider here Re: current dialogue of talking the talk and walking the walk.
1. Woe to the man who questions the basis of content of the messages of the Holy Spirit of God.
2. Woe to the man who questions the spirituality of one influenced by the Holy Spirit.
3. There are different talents Christians have for sharing their faith in the Almighty.
4. Many are aged and are incapable of more active methods of sharing the Gospel message.
5. Recommend there be no belittling or criticism of each other, as only God knows the
commitment of each of us. And criticism devalues any worthwhile values, and causes
friction and ire between participants.
Earl,
Thank you for recognizing how seriously we need to be taking the Holy Spirit and what respect we need to be giving those who are working in His power. Jesus said he was sending the Holy Spirit to be with us in his absence, so those who reject the Holy Spirit are rejecting Him.
In Mathew 7, Jesus told us we could recognize whether a person was of God by the fruits of their life. Then he declared that only those who do the will of the father will enter the Kingdom and those who do not “bear good fruit” for the kingdom are like a barren tree that will be cut-down and thrown into the fire. It is hard to find a clearer statement in the Bible.
Since it is impossible to produce good fruit for the Kingdom of God without letting the Holy Spirit live in you, anyone who denies the necessity of the Holy Spirit should have no doubt about the destruction God has promised them.
We Reverence and Respect the FATHER and the SON and HIS Sanctuary. We reverence the fathers of our flesh and the wife see that she reverence her husband. These are all commanded by HIM; but only become part of HIS Love returned.
HE was pretty mad when they didn’t respect the priests and elders in Lamentations 4. Proverbs 24:23, 28:21, Deuteronomy 1:7, 16:19, 2 Chronicles 19:7, Psalms 40:4 and many others specifically states it is not good to have respect of person or in judgement or the proud. We are commanded to respect the Covenant, the Commandments, HIS statutes and HIS ways.
Proverbs 24:
21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
This is no game. You want claim on the Holy Spirit and respect; yet wish to judge the fruits of others? You realize we are made for HIS works, not ours, and the fruits of the Spirit are the result? You realize that you give Charity away; along with the claim or show? You realize that if you witness unto HIM about you, how is HE to suppose advocate and be your witness to HIM?
This is Truth in Love.
Wisdom,
Just a point here, We are not made for HIS works, we ARE His workmanship. This is a magnificent distinction. Indeed, we are told that our designated works are not God’s works. Read all about it in Genesis 3.
These are the works God reserved for himself, and those he assigned for us to do. God deals with the Serpent, we don’t–we obviously were not created to do so successfully. Women are to have children, enculturate the family and society, and enliven the earth. Men are to hoe weeds, sweat in the sun, and thereby to feed the family.
We get our selves in anxious situations when we seek by our efforts to do God’s work and thus lay claim on the Holy Spirit, as you seem to be observing.
We are called to worship our creator. Worship is the recognition that in ever aspect God makes pointless whatever we might think we might proffer by way of assistance to God. Worship is recognition that by any measure we are inert in the presence of God and of God’s creation.
That does mean we are actually inert. We are social creatures by creation and thus God’s design. The great enabler of social well being is recognizing that like we everyone we meet is the object of God’s love as confirmed by Jesus, God’s son in human flesh.
You are so true about not judging. Jesus himself by loving confirmation of the Father, did not condemn.
A very good correction and beautiful picture you paint Bill.
Ephesians 2:10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
As stated before; we Love the staff and volunteers and all the hard work. We love the many assembled and in partnering with others so grouped in HIS works; many wanting nothing to do with these so organized in the article. I would not, nor would they, derive or interpret any of the BIBLE or any of the 28 Beliefs into justification of resultants.
We see such hard works and Love for HIM from those of conviction; then we see this. As you and many state; we see none of HIS preordained works having any focus or teaching as commanded. We see the feminist movement that was ruled unconstitutional, discriminatory and a waste of taxpayer dollars in 2013; just picked up and continued here.
We see their resolve that women and men in leadership positions be treated equally in workload, compensation and responsibilities. I hope everyone would agree, this should go for all and not just leadership positions? It should not insinuate that we are obligated to hire anyone, or make positions for any class. It does not remove the failures in doing their job to create leadership.
They want to look at the pain to understand the problem? Did they not see the pain, help relieve the suffering and work on the solutions before? Then claim to be leadership and have a plan?