Church Leaders Firmly Condemn Horrifying Actions
From Inter-Europe Division, July 15, 2016 A truck drove into a crowd during Bastille Day ceremonies late Thursday in Nice, France, killing dozens of people. French President Francois Hollande has called it an act of terror.
The attack happened on Bastille Day, a major holiday in France. Victims had been watching fireworks on the beach and were walking down a promenade, either going back home or to their cars.
“Once again we are witnessing senseless cruelty and violence. We firmly condemn such horrifying actions.”
According to the local pastor, seven Adventist members have been injured during the attack.
Blood donations are more than welcome, according to local authorities.
“We appeal to our local church members to support efforts of assistance and aid. We appeal to our global church members to pray intensely for all those involved in this tragedy.”
I’ve mentioned this several times. In the 70’s in NYC, a group of Black Muslims shut down an SDA evangelistic series that was preaching on Revelation 9. A Muslim friend of mine, attending PUC was introduced to traditional Adventism in a class on Revelation, which also connected Islam to chapter 9. Did she see the error of her ways and quickly convert to Christianity? No, instead, she packed up her family and left Angwin and PUC, eliminating possible exposure to the Christian gospel and possibly making an enemy of her.
While we may see he subtle distinction between condemning violence and condemning Muslims, probably most of them do not. Words like “senseless” and “condemn” do not play well to the ears of religious types
who believe they are doing God’s work.
Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world but to save it. SDA executives, sitting in their nice offices, aren’t the ones who extremists will hold accountable if they decide to go Jihad on a local congregation because of what those executives have said.
Where are you when church members attack Catholicism as they have done in the past and even now without qualification?
Is there sensible cruelty and violence? When did institutional Adventism start speaking out regarding notorious acts of evil? Have I just been aware of it? Are our church leaders afraid that if they don’t condemn barbarity, church members or the public might think they are okay with it? Maybe so. Maybe that’s why it’s important for the leaders to say that they FIRMLY condemn the violence.
Once church leaders start going down this road of making public statements condemning evil that makes the headlines, what are the guidelines and limits? Again, looking to Christ as our guide, were there no atrocities in His day to condemn? We have no record of Him even condemning the imprisonment or beheading of His cousin, John, much less using His power to achieve justice for John The Baptist.
“By their fruits you will know them.” This is the church’s witness, not the agility with which it jumps on public bandwagons to waive its moral bona fides.
My sentiments as well.
Why is it we hear about church leaders condemning such acts of violence, but not stories about churches ministering to the victims and their families? Is it because all we know how to do is talk, but not to minister God’s love?
Wow, as I read the press release, it carefully condemns violence while being silent about the perpetrator and his motive.
It is true that Church leaders have in times past not had the immediacy of Social Media to lay a stake in the ground on emerging news. This does not mean that their concerns were not voiced.
Church leaders are for the most part out and about meeting people who are hurting as a consequence of these happenings.
Since the battle between good and evil is one of our background narratives, then it is the task of Adventist leaders to remind adherents that we do not celebrate ‘the battle’ in a ‘told you so’ manner, but we repeatedly affirm the good and the best in human society.
The best among Adventists will recognise this, I believe.
Providential protection– when my daughter, her husband and my two grandchildren, holidaying in my home, thirty minutes from Nice’s Promenade des Anglais, where the massacre occurred, decided at the last minute that they were too tired to go to the fireworks!
Another friend and fellow church member also had her grandchildren on the French Riviera on Basille Day, but they were in another town.
Life is fragile. Regrettably, our wonderful Loma Linda Medical Center is on the edge of San Bernardino, a bancrupt city with homeless, drug addicts, and welfare people who swamp the LL medical Centers emergency room. Who would have thought that this derelect town would be a target for terrorism rather than Paris, Nice, and other high profile places?
The evil of targeting a joyful celebration of families with toddlers, children, mothers and fathers and grandparents, is beyond belief.
But when Sharia Law mandates that any Muslim leaving the faith, becoming atheist, Christian, or any other religion, is FAIR GAME for being killed by family members, when horrific “honor killings” abound — this religious mindset bodes ill for humanity.
God’s requirement that a “time of trouble such as never was” precedes His glorious return, sounds vindictive and vengeful to me– has not humanity had enough misery as punishment for Eve’s transgression?
But undoubtedly God is using Islam to futher his prophecy!!
Robin,
Let’s hope Christianity has never postulated the misery of sin is the punishment of the woman’s disobedience.
Human misery is the foretaste of death and it is death that is the consequence of sin, or as Paul puts it, “the wages of sin is death.”
God is not content to have us suffer the consequences of our free agency where we say, “No” to life and to God.
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He has contrived to enter into death for our sake. It is a substitutionary death and he gives us a new eternal life. We we do not suffer and die apart from His suffering and death and we do not live apart from His gift of eternal life in Him.
It is my heartfelt prayer that you can see all the suffering in the world in the light of God’s suffering in Christ. I know all suffering torments you. You are plagued by with the question “why.” I cannot answer, “why”.
But I can answer “Whom.” He suffers on the cross for all of us sinners. We suffer with Him.
Upon that cross of Jesus mine eye at times can see
The very dying form of One Who suffered there for me;
And from my stricken heart with tears two wonders I confess;
The wonders of redeeming love and my unworthiness.
Beneath the Cross of Jesus
William.
Eve was a naive, cloistered, unsophisticated, woman.
She had two strikes against her.
ONE The psalmist tells us she was made lower than the Amgels
TWO Our esteemed church leaders proponents of the heinous heretical
” Headship”dogma, tell us that because Eve came from Adams
rib, she was way inferior to him
So what does God do?
He pits this poor woman against not only an Angel, far
superior to her, but one that EGW informs us had a “GIANT
INTELLECT” ( or was that something EGW plagiarized or did
her huge entourage of editors/collaborators/literary assistants
write it — in which case it can be ignored).
I am not a betting man, but this unequal, mismatched conflict
had an entirely predictable outcome.
As punishment, billions and billions of Eve’s descendants have lived in misery,
and a vengeful and vidictive God requires a “time of trouble such as never was”
as a prerequisite for Christ’s return.
God’s “pound of flesh” for gullible Eve’s transgression when faced with a
far out-matched opponent.
I would say you read the Bible with a jaundiced eye. Don’t skip over the parts that talk about the love and graciousness of God and how many times He forgave even waiting hundreds of years. I am baffled at how patient He was. It seems like Israel would repent and then go back again even to sacrificing their own children to idols. When evil is let go (when God withdraws His protection which has been rejected by the wicked), it spreads and would finally destroy all that is good and even the world. (The reason for Noah’s flood.)
If one begins by believing that God is more wonderful than we can imagine, we will find it throughout the Bible but primarily in the life of Christ. Christ was the perfect reflection of God. But God hates evil. And the wicked are not innocent. He also punishes on a corporate level in the Bible. But He who knows when a sparrow falls, protects righteous individuals among them, even if it means letting them die until the resurrection.
Since the idea of an adversary was not always understood by the Hebrew (it evolved and reached understanding in the book of Job), so the writers of the OT often saw God as the source of every event that happened from earthquakes and accidents to wars.
We know what will happen, in 2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
But hopefully there are billions of strength and conviction that have and will live in the bounds of HIS blessing and rest and peace; forever. Luckily for them there is only one Judge; and that is not you.
2 Corinthians 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
You seem to think you are better than Eve; are you greater than satan? Should you not blame Adam for your description of Eve? Do you always pass the blame?
Conviction and Robin,
There is no one to blame, just Someone to thank. God has brought unimaginable goodness out of mankind’s fall. He has revealed His Goodness in Christ. In Christ all the sin is atoned for. All the blame for sin is assigned to Him, the only begotten of the Father. Christ is the Head. From the beginning He has intended good for us. Who can resist His will?
William Abbott,
The psalmist tells us in Psalm 51:5:
“Behold I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me”.
I think he is talking about what the theologians call
Original Sin.
This is a state into which we are born directly because
of our ancestor Eve’s transgression.
We have NO CHOICE in the matter, just as we have
no input in whether we are born blue/brown eyed,
blond/brunette, left/right handed, gay/straight,
black/white/Asian.
We are all unwitting and decidedly unwilling “guinea pigs”
in God’s great obsession, infatuation to “vindicate” Himself.
At least that is what EGW tells us in her signature work
the GREAT CONTROVERSY ( or was this vindication idea
plagiarized, or written for her by her entourage of editors/
collaborators/literary assistants??)
God, humiliated by the abdication of a third of his
adoring entourage, and fearful of his “image” being
corroded, devises an experiment involving planet earth.
In my younger days, I was in academic medicine, at
Harvard and University of Pennsylvania. When we ran
medical experiments involving volunteers, they always
had to provide a signed document of “informed consent”.
Regrettably God never obtained from His “Guinea pigs”
any informed consent. We were born wildly nilly with
sinful natures, which then mandated death.
Unfortunately many billions were born into shanty towns
and sordid slums, so I do not see much ” unimaginable
goodness” in this…
Robin,
You are right about many things. We have no choice in being born. (Man can take life, but he can’t give it).
It is nowhere in scripture that God ordains suffering, (much less to vindicate Himself). Biblically it is mankind that chooses death. Disobedience is saying ‘yes’ to what God has said ‘no’ to. What God has said ‘no’ to is death. God has said, ‘live’. But man has chosen death.
But God is not content with our choosing. He wills to redeem us from our ‘no’ to life. He reveals in Jesus Christ that God Himself will bear all the suffering and death in the world in God’s own flesh.
Our suffering and death is a portion in His Suffering and Death. He has suffered and died so all of us might live with Him forever.
The Great Controversy is about the character of God. Nothing more can be known about God’s character than the very form of God dying on the cross to conquer death.
We are not God’s guinea pigs in some sort of vindictive experiment. We are zombies. Walking dead men. God chooses that our choosing death is the consequential death of His Son. In Jesus Christ God chooses ‘life’ for mankind.
I look at Adam and Eve’s choice as not merely theirs; it is my choice too. I have said ‘no’ to God.
Robin, do you believe Jesus Christ saves the world?
Your picture of God is so negative, that you need to be born again. The adversary has always striven to present God as a tyrant as you have stated. Please don’t support him.
The above was to Robin.
So true William. HE stands with HIS arms wide open in Love. We stand with our arms wide open in Love. HE Sacrificed in absolute as many have had to; yet that is not enough for some.
Some will be led to HIM by compassion and others by fear as they are pulled from the depths actually, having to stomp the fire from their clothes. Yet many will hear HIM say “depart from me ye doers of iniquity”. How many attempts does it take to remove any plea of ignorance? How much privilege can one assume without ignorance? How hard is it to deny ourselves and fall within HIS Loving arms?
But we look at those assumed less fortunate, while in many case rich beyond dreams. While using such excuses to justify our own privilege? We need more? We demand, want and are worthy of more as we wallow in our own self pity.
What makes you say that I think I am better than Eve?
You clearly did not read my post accurately.
I have every sympathy for Eve
God, knowing that He has made Eve “lower than the Angels”
deliberately sends Satan, the highest of all the heavenly hosts,
a being that EGW tells us had a GIANT INTELLECT to engage
with her. The outcome was a foregone conclusion given the mismatch!
I am NOT blaming Eve.
She was outwitted by an adversary she was not equal to.
I am blaming God for having allowed this travesty!
It is like a fight promoter pitting a bantam weight against a heavy weight!
I do not blame Adam. His “sin” if that is what it is called,
was a sin of LOVE. He loved his wife so much, he did
not want to lose her, so he ate the apple.
I place the blame where it is due, on the person so
obsessed with His “vindication ” that He placed all
mankind in an “experiment” in a desperate
effort to boost His image before the “universe”.
You stated “Eve was a naive, cloistered, unsophisticated, woman.” We are all naive, cloistered and unsophisticated.
Love is sacrifice. Love is allowing children to grow. Love is allowing them to screw up and realize what they have done. Love is making it as easy as possible to do good and as hard as possible to do bad. We fail miserably in understanding this.
Compassion comes from this instilled structure. As we grow, we see the needs and hurt of others and help. We teach others to help. We teach others to do good. We teach others to Love. We teach others to see and appreciate the sacrifice of and in others. We grow a Body of those doing good. Is this not a great plan; is this not The Plan?
But instead we fail to teach and appreciate those that Sacrifice, fail to help, teach that doing bad is good, condone the continued pain and suffering of others and fix nothing. We sit on our behinds and actually make things worse. We never really help anyone.
If we would have really helped, there would be multitudes helping. If we would have really Loved, there would be multitudes Loving. But instead of separating from sin, our iniquities have separated us from HIM; not the other way around. He continues to search for the prodigal son. We continue to stomp our childish foot and contend we are right; because that is what we are taught. Unable to take the responsibility and accountability for our own actions; and look to HIM.
An article appeared in two British newspapers recently, along with CNN about the U.S. military in Syria dropping bombs on Syrian cities killing over 70 civilians, thinking they were part of ISIS. Then there was the announcement by President Obama during his State of the Union address regarding the 10,000 bombing raids our military has made over Syria leaving thousands homeless. Some of the photos were reminiscent of Berlin, etc., during WWII. Then we wonder why “they” come here. We’re presently at war with 8 Muslim countries that have no armies.
But of course, Carolyn. Do you offer the same explanation for why they commit atrocities in France, England, Egypt, Israel and other areas of the world? If we left them alone, do you think they would suddenly declare peace? But of course! Why should you believe them when they tell you that their goal is to destroy western civilization and establish a world wide caliphate?
Whatever your smoking, Carolyn, that affords you such a pleasant escape from reality, keep smoking it. It’s working.
And oh yes…how could I have forgotten about the Germanic invasions of Arab Islamic countries?
Do you listen to the news much? We aren’t at war with countries, but with radical Islamists who have killed tens of thousands. Get informed.
Terrorism comes in many shapes and sizes. Millions of innocent unborn babies are butchered every year at abortion slaughterhouses in the West and yet both society and the church won’t bat an eyelid. Whether its fanatics killing unbelievers in Allah’s name or the slaughter of the innocents to the god’s of this world, merciless senseless callous brutality should be condemned in all instances.
What would you say in Sabbath school class if the teacher said, after reporting events such as this .(.in the class..)…”God is in control”???
Why do you think he says those 4 words?
How do you react to a person saying those words?
The sabbath school teacher says “God is in control ” because he/she believes
that God is omnipotent.
However on closer anlysis, an omnipotent God, who sees widespread suffering
— floods of millions of miserable migrants– boat people drowning with their children at sea– babies with tiny heads born to Zika infected mothers — beheadings, drownings, burnings by ISIS mobs — I COULD GO ON AND ON.
This omnipotent God, who does not step in to stop the carnage, has to be savage, sadistic, cruel or worse!
So maybe God is not omnipotent after all??
In which case, why do we call Him God?
I call God God for one reason, the death and resurrection of Christ. That’s all the reason I need.
Robin Vandermolen studiously avoids discussing the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The level of terrorism, criminal activity and barbarianism will increase. DUH.
What can one expect when even most of Christianity are taught….
Christ is the end of the Law
The Law was our schoolmaster
We are not under Law but GRACE
No one is saved by keeping the Law…
Christianity promotes & perpetuates the ROM 8:7 mindset.
Well,
You know those form letters…??
Is there already a form response, by leaders, to these continuing events, such as…
“We condemn these senseless acts of violence and our thoughts & prayers are with the victims & families…etc, etc”
Robin,Robin,
I do not believe you are directing your disgust in the right direction, and at the right person. Those views about God are perpetuated in the writings of Mrs White and some of the Old Testament writers,like Moses.In trying to defend their actions, and points of view, they sometimes present God as a heartless monster. If you really believe that God is delaying any intervention in our fallen world because He has a point to make to the “sinless beings of the unfallen worlds”, you may be following the wrong teachers. If these teachers believe this, there is no reason we must believe them, and judge God on the basis of their beliefs.
Please do not get mad with God on the basis of information from people who are seeking to find out God, but have not yet found Him. Try to find Him for your self, understanding that you may, or will not find everything now; and try to live without knowing everything, or understanding everything. I believe in God, the Creator. Ise His love and care all around me every day. I see birth and death, health and sickness, happiness and sorrow, riches and poverty, beautiful days and stormy days, pleasure and mourning – all realities of our present life. We change what we can; and trust God to take care of the rest. As far as I can see, He has given us much to make us happy, even when there is sadness around. He has provided much for us, although some people would want to deprive us of it. See Him through your own eyes though!
Nathaniel,
Thank you for your comment.
EGW, in her signature work, the GREAT CONTROVERSY,
states very clearly, that the whole,of human existence
on this planet, is to “vindicate ” God before the “universe ”
Regrettably, she is not here to expound on her definition of “universe”
One assumes she means the Angels and other extraterrestrials.
How humiliating for God, that after six thousand years, his extra-
terrestrial entourage are “sitting on the fence” unable to achieve an adequate arbitration between God and Satan.
The Angels sit sullen, stony faced, silent, uncaring, unmoved, uncompassionate,
in the face of six thousand years of wars, genocides, famines, droughts,
pestilences, plagues, rapes, murders,holocausts and atrocities of every
description.
So you are telling me to discount EGW’s thesis is her Great Controversy?
Maybe she plagiarized this concept of God’s vindication before the “universe”
(or was it written for her by her entourage
of editors/collaborators/literary assistants?)
Even if that is the case, what explanation do you then give for the delay in Christ’s coming?
Hopefully not that old chestnut, “He is not willing for any to perish”– since there are now billions more alive than when EGW deceased a century ago. Most of them will perish, having been born to “heathen” mothers in abject poverty — in shanty towns and sordid slums, living lives of abject misery.
God seems to get a savage delight in watching…
…in watching from the cross Robin? Is God watching human suffering from his lonely wooden tower?
William Abbott,
God’s entourage of extraterrestrials ( EGW’s “universe”)
apparently watched Christ’s “lonely wooden tower”
and were apparently unfazed, unmoved, uncompassionate
If they had any feeling at all, they would have immediately,
instantaneously, in a heart beat, exonerated/vindicated God
and indicted Satan for this travesty/atrocity.
The “great controversy ” should have ended then and there.
That the “universe” would have let mankind’s misery
continue for another two millennia ( and counting)
assures me that neither they nor God have the best
interests of humanity at heart.
God’s insatiable lust to “vindicate” himself outweighs
all other interests.
WILLIAM Abbott ,
Christ’s suffering was horrendous ghastly.
I was stuck in an airport for three hours and bought
Bill O’Reillys book KILLKNG JESUS from the airport book store.
Bill’s account of the crucifixion is gruesome, Vromans ghastly.
Hard to read.
That said, Chrit’s twenty four hour of suffering hardly
outweighs six thousand years of rapes, murders, genocides.
wars, famines, holocausts ans atrocities/anguish/agonies
AD INFINITUM
HOw does God ( or his entourage of extraterrestrials )
stand the STENCH of misery emanating from mankkmd?
And all this to “vindicate” God?
Hasn’t enough vindication occurred?
Wasn’t Christ’s horrific death on the cross
ADEQUATE EVIL for the “extraterrestrials”
(EGW’s “universe”) to indict Satan??
If not, are the other unfallen planets populated
with primitive primates as depicted in the movie
PLANET OF THE APES?
EGWs toxic Great Comtroversy theology makes
absolutely no sense!
I’ve been studying EGW’s Great Controversy lately, especially three chapters that deal with the Investigative Judgment. I found them to be rather interesting, especially her imaginative and unique use of various OT passages. Matthew 22 and the wedding garment made good sense. Actually, judgment always includes an investigation of sorts. Justification/condemnation is predicated upon an examination of the facts of a case; then the individual is either condemned or justified.
The IJ doctrine was taught in the church for ~25 years before EGW wrote at length about it. JW, Smith, and JN Andrews had written about it long before EGW.
EGW’s narrative Reformation history is a good introduction to a vast subject. Her sources are a great place to start an interesting study
“The IJ doctrine was taught in the church for ~25 years before EGW wrote at length about it.”
Glen, the IJ is taught throughout the whole bible. The only thing unique about the SDA message is the timing of this event. There is nothing else new about it.
Now it is true that some details about this judgment is added in a more comprehensive explanation of the final judgment of the church, but the principle is not “new” at all and affirmed many times throughout scripture.
In fact, EGW adds the dynamic fact that a believer is not judged apart from a faith, grace relationship to God by way of Christ. Solomon says, “For God shall bring ever work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
No “good news” in this exhortation. But EGW affirms we will be judged “in Christ” and she adds in no uncertain terms the necessity of grace if we ever hope to pass the final judgment.
She puts law and gospel in a perfect unity that transcends any former explanation and makes this reality of the judgment both a challenge and a blessing. Satan has managed to obscure all the factors and thus undermine all the factors that make this judgment dynamic.
As Peter says, “Fear coupled with assurance.” This is bible motive and nothing less will do the job. One or the other alone will not suffice to motivate to adequate obedience and a fitness for heaven.
Robin,
From Job to Dostoevsky man has wrestled with why the innocent suffer. I don’t think there is a rational answer. If the Great Controversy is as you describe it, an event where God is trying to prove something; You are understandably offended at God.
I have found it helpful to imagine what it would be like for God to live entirely free of time, understanding time but not in bondage to it like you and me. God lives in an eternal now. I imagine the Garden of Eden and the End of the World are an eternal present to God. When I read the words, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. I imagine that Christ’s Passion on the cross was not “twenty-four hours of suffering” but an ever present moment of suffering. I imagine for God it is like He is always on the Cross in Jesus Christ suffering and dying, alone and rejected.
I don’t understand eternal life. In my imagination I figure the promise of eternal life makes the suffering on earth, not so much a short-time matter, but an altogether small matter. Jesus Christ is suffering for us and with us. But only for a moment.
Maybe Paul hinted at the smallness of our suffering when he said: “… and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.”
WILLIAM ABBOTT,
Of course, THE LAMB WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUDATION OF THE WORLD,
Even if God was not omniscient, could not foresee the future,
even the least astute observer could have foretold the outcome:
Eve, a naive, cloistered, unsophisticated woman, had an additional
two handicaps:
The psalmist tells us she was” created “lower than the Angels”
Our esteemed SDA church leaders tell us that because she came
from Adam’s rib, she was a decidedly inferior human.
So God pits this handicapped human against not only
an Angel, a MALE Angel, bit one that EGW tells us had
a “GIANT INTELLECT”. ( or did she plagiarize this?)
It is like a fight promoter pitting a female bantam weight against a male heavyweight
!When God was humiliated by the abdication of one third of
his adoring entourage, He had to come up with a hasty. alternate
plan to “vindicate” Himself.
He decided to create a race of “guinea pigs” ( human’s)
that He would place on the same planet as His foe
the one with “giant intellect”
God knew INTUITIVELY. that naive Eve would be vulnerable
to Satan, he being not only a MALE, ( when Eve was an “inferior” female )
but an ANGEL ( when Eve was human) and Eve though bright,
had no “giant intellect”.
Knowing this unequal unfair competition God enrolled His
Son in this plan.
So yes this plot to “vindicate ” God was
planned in great detail from “the beginning”
If you would drop to your knee and turn yourself over to HIM things would be much better. You would have HIS Peace. You would stop trying to vindicate or justify evil and blame satan and our bad decision. You would see that HIS Sacrifice is sufficient. You would find purpose and HIS blessings in life. You could sleep at night in the comfort of HIS arms.
Then maybe HE could put you to work and help fix as much as possible. You have only gotten to see and help with the end results in your profession, a very difficult job and much appreciated. Maybe HE has a different plan for you now; instead of leading others away from HIM? Maybe you could ask.
WILLIAM Abbott,
I greatly appreciate that you are prepared to dialogue with me,
and Imfeel your heart is in the right place.
Unfortunately your responses keep raising new issues.
Your comment ” I imagine that God is always on the cross, suffering and dying,
alone and rejected”
Regrettably this is a classic definition of a masochist, someone who ENJOYS
suffering and pain and therefore is unwilling to stop it.
God/Christ could stop this masochistic cycle of continual pain/pleasure
by calling an end to the”Great Controversy”. Why doesn’t He?
Your stateme that ” the promise of eternal life makes the suffering on earth a small matter”
Bully for you, William, no doubt that bargain is beneficial, even a BONANZA.
for YOU! You will “hit the jackpot” when resurrected.
However, you must admit that the Bible/EGW/CHRISTIANITY,
teaches that only a tiny per centage will be “saved”
Very few will “hit the jackpot”
So the billions of “sinners” over six millennia, will not have this benefit
of delayed gratification. The sadistic/masochistic God seems uncaring
about the misery of billions, uncompensated by eventual eternal life ( can you stomach watching the evening news — the migrants– the starving–the Zika
mothers with deformed babies etc etc)
When I CRINGE and change channels, how can God and His entourage of extra-
terrestrials watch with equanimity?
You statement that “God loves entirely free of time” in no way exonerates
Him.
Robin,
The texts says, For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I’m probably not a universalist, but why not hope the whole world will be saved? Why not trust the scripture? He talks about the disobedient being the ‘least’ in the Kingdom of Heaven. Maybe almost everybody will make it in, in the end.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob… …Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
There are recurrent universalist themes in scripture: who am I to judge?
Classically defined, masochism is a psycho-sexual disorder. (I suppose these days its a lifestyle). God in Christ is not enjoying suffering and death; He is enduring it for our sake. It is His nature, not His will, that makes the Cross an ever-present reality to God. It is the one, sufficient, better sacrifice, and it is always before the mind of God.
I will not and cannot explain suffering. But I do believe in Jesus Christ. I trust in Him.
Thank you, William Abbott, for your kind and considerate responses
to my rabble rousing!
I would love to adopt the doctrine of universalist— if it were true that all the billions of suffering souls, descendants of our ancestor Eve, born with the genetic defect of “original sin” and because of it, suffering life long misery ,
if they were to be compensated with “eternal life” it would assuage my animus towards God!
I am a Francophile and love the Loire Valley with its dozens of castles belonging to the French aristocracy. I heard a guide telling her group that these stunning castles were infested with rodents, rats, fleas, bed bugs ( even in the King’s bed).
They were also cold and draughty and difficult to heat with their forty foot ceilings– hence the wall hung tapestries which acted as insulation!
Also no flush toilets nor running water. No air conditioning nor heat.
If the aristocracy lived so miserably, WHAT WAS THE FATE OF THE PEASANTS??
Regrettably I doubt EGW was a universalist ( some of her aficionados on this site
may quote her comments — although when we do not know which paragraph, page or principle was plagiarized or penned by one of her panoply of assistants, what does it matter?)
Our church leaders are certainly not universalists otherwise why would we spend our limited resources preaching to the planet, if everyone were to be saved anyway?
But nice try, William!
It’s not that everyone will be saved, but its that everyone is saved already. All they need do is grab hold of the lifesaver.
The lifeguard arms are around you, don’t fight him, don’t drowned in a panic, let Him rescue you.
Why can’t we imagine that Jesus Christ can save to the uttermost?
Only our free agency can cause our ruin.
Have you ever read CS Lewis fantasy The Great Divorce? It is worth a read or reread. The only thing that keeps the damned out of paradise is their unwillingness to go and abide there. The bus is always leaving for heaven. But go or stay if you choose.
Lewis’s Great Divorce is a fantasia, but a right-minded one I think.
Thank you William,
I am fortunate to live in a city that hosts the biggest bookstore on the planet,
and an easy twenty minute walk from me. So I will buy C,S Lewis book,
the Great Divorce. They may even have a cheap “used ” copy!
Everyone may be “saved ” already, but the majority of the one and a half billion.
Islamists on the planet live in countries denying access to to Christianity. Bringing even a Bible,into these countries exacts a harsh penalty. The
1.25 Billion Indians in India are mostly Hindu with limited access, and only a tiny percentage are Christian. Likewise for the 1.35 Chinese in communist China. Likewise for Shinto Japan.
You state, rather glibly, that all these multiple billions, “only need to grab a hold of the lifesaver” How is this possible when the majority have NO access to the gospel?
I am a fan of the PBS NEWSHOUR, where each evenings some new horror gets
coverage -like the carnage in Nice, which initiated this discussion,
or the killings in the gay nightclub in Orlando.
And speaking of gays, what kind of God would create one twentieth of mankind
with same sex instincts UNCHOSEN by them, give them the same sex hormones
as their straight brothers/ cousins and then demand lifelong celibacy?
I observe heterosexual pastors/church administrators, upon becoming widowed are re-married within a year or two.
They cannot stand the LONELINESS. But God demands LIFE LONG
loneliness from gays/lesbians. CRUEL!!
What student of Jesus Christ’s words would presume to think they knew anything about who will be saved or lost? We are not the judge. I always liked the idea, ‘the light we have’ is what guides our feet.
For my part I’m like the demoniac from whom Jesus cast out the legion of devils. I want to go with Jesus in the boat, but he sends me back to my people to tell them what Jesus has done for me. I want to tell everybody about Him and I am always disappointed when they don’t care to listen. But I judge no one.
I know I am not saved by my knowledge or my obedience; rather in spite of myself, Jesus Christ saves me, because He has chosen me. I want everyone to consider the possibility that Jesus is choosing them also.
I believe no matter who you are, where or when you were born, Jesus Christ has saved you. No matter how deep the darkness, you need to respond by affirming goodness and truth. You may be like St. Paul and have things totally backwards, but be faithful to the vision, when and if it comes.
Helen Keller said before anyone had communicated to her about anything she knew there was a Creator who made everyone and everything. Be on His side. All will be well.
Robin, Limited access to Bibles in China is a myth perpetuated by ministries that profit from the myth. “Send us money to provide Bibles for China”; nonsense. Magazines like Christianity Today run articles on this topic, decrying China’s police state and the poor Christians without Bibles–rubbish.
Bibles are plentiful in China. They can be bought in any church or from numerous booksellers. A very nice NIV with English /Chinese script Bible can be bought for about 60-90 RMB. An ordinary person can buy more Bibles than they can carry. You can order 20 and pick them up in a week. Chinese only Bibles are available in numerous sizes and bindings.
An August, 2010 article in Christianity Today made a case for Bible smuggling– pure poppycock. Should bagels be smuggled into the Fairfax district of L.A. when they can be bought in Canter’s or Schwartz’.
I don’t blame you for making such a comment when the propaganda everywhere in the States propagates such falsehood but it simply isn’t the case.
Remember Hansen,
What is not the situation today was certainly the case in the past. China went through the wringer during the twentieth century. China was as bad as N. Korea is, when Chairman Mao conducted his ghastly political experiments. Probably worse.
William, Did you notice the date, August, 2010 in my post? Robin, was talking about now, not 50 years ago. Bibles can easily be bought not only at Government supervised churches, but from independent booksellers and peddlers on the street. “Poor Chinese people have no Bibles” is nonsense. Anyone who says otherwise hasn’t looked much.
Monetizing religion is a popular way for criminal types and unskilled individuals to earn money. The “poor Christians in China, send money” mantra is as popular as a Buddhist Chant and about as ridiculous.
Hansen,
I know what you say is true. Literature Evangelists believed the books they sold were a witness, not a scam. I do not think the Gideon’s or the American Bible Society are scam artists. I like seeing a bible in my motel room.
If we are going to pass out literature, lets pass out bibles. There are plenty of poor Chinese that don’t have one. (lots of rich Chinese too). Overall it does more good than harm and China is a country that needs God’s healing grace.
People don’t have Bibles because they don’t want one. It would be extremely rare nowadays for a person who wants a Bible to not have one. In the case of SDA in particular, with its traditional emphasis on apocalyptic literature, that brand of Christianity might be a little more difficult to sell than other. The dragon, for example, is a revered creature in China. It’s very possible that identifying China’s most sacred creature with Satan, would provoke an unwanted response, possibly from law enforcement.
A big issue now is erecting crosses on a church with the corollary of undue reverence for the actual cross, rather than what it represents i.e., the death and resurrection of Christ. As usual, people mistake the symbol for the substance with unwanted results. Entire church buildings have been razed and people killed resisting government decrees to remove crosses from church buildings.
Feng Shui has a lot of influence. Many local people resent crosses prominently displayed. They may complain to the local officials,who are then required to act. It’s not worth having an entire building destroyed when taking down the cross would resolve the issue.
I’ve seen crosses bedecked with votive candles carried into church meetings. Smacks of idolatry.
All the unbiblical heterodoxy that plagues Christianity in China will be moderated as Chinese Christians become more familiar with the Word of God.
I am not sure it is as simple as “they don’t have a bible because they don’t want one”
For one thing China still has hundreds of millions poor rural people and ethnic minorities who have never been exposed to enough Christianity to even know if they want a bible or not.
I have a lot of respect for the authority of scripture. When it is read as authority and illumined by the Holy Spirit it becomes as it says, “a lamp into my feet and a light unto my path”
You can make an idol out of anything. Because of its contents scripture is resistant to this temptation. I mean we learn what idolatry is in scripture.
More bibles as an antidote to the excessive devotion to symbols like crosses.
William Abbott, The ethnic minorities are among the most evangelized people groups in China, especially those in the southwest part of the country. The Kachin and Lisu, for example, have very large % of Christian believers. Amity publishing, which publishes Bibles in China, produces Scripture specifically for certain minority tribes because so many of those people do want them.
The Hui and Uyghur people are Muslims; they have little interest in Christian Scripture
This is not privileged information. You can find it on Wikipedia or the Amity Publishing website. A lot of people simply don’t know what they are talking about China because of the “propaganda” being spread by special interest groups hoping to use “ministry” as an income resource. It might not be horrifying but it is disgusting.
Ah! Powell’s Book store is the first stop on every visit to Portland! Bibliophiles could spend days there and only begin to see what’s available.
We should all ask such questions: with Adventists’ preaching one must accept their doctrines (Christ as salvation WITH keeping the commandments, how small a group of the world’s population since time has been recorded. To expect that the church’s mission is to go to everyone living (while millions are dying) is ludicrous. Does anyone truly believe that only those who accept Adventism will be saved? What about millions of Hindus, Daoists, Muslims and other Christians? Is God so small that he has such a check list? What about Jesus’ message in Matthew that it’s not those who strictly observe the Law (as all Adventists have been taught), but those who care for the needy? How often is that heard from the pulpit in comparison to “get ready, He’s coming soon”?
Who are you speaking to, Elaine? Who has argued that Adventist doctrines must be accepted in order to be saved? Maybe I haven’t read the comments carefully, but I just haven’t seen the Adventist straw man you want to attack for a very long time.
Even as a child growing up, I was told by very conservative Adventist teachers and parents that God only holds people responsible for the light He has revealed to them. I think that is still a valid way to look at truth. And I really don’t know how He will hold people responsible.
Our job as Christians is to be seed sowers, not harvesters. If we use the daunting size of the territory as an excuse to not bother with seed sowing in the fields that have been entrusted to us, we are disobeying God. Those who ignore God’s voice because it doesn’t make sense, or because they can’t reconcile it with the big picture, end up having to deconstruct God and create gods in their own image.
” Who has argued that Adventist doctrines must be accepted in order to be saved?
If SDA doctrines are biblical, then yes, you must accept SDA doctrines to be saved. I know that many on this forum hate and abhor the idea the anybody has to believe the bible to be saved, but this is simply “false doctrine” and will not fly in the final judgment.
Such ideas gender the liberal “Universalism” that at least some hold who post here. Of course, such an idea totally destroys the value of humanity and people are a worthless bag of beans.
Accountability gives value to choices and actions, and the reward for doing good is played off against the final destruction for choosing and doing bad. What motivation would there be if there is no meaning or value to human choices and actions? None. Universalism is destructive to the value of mankind.
Just because you can not merit heaven, does not mean there is no saving value in your choices and decisions. Jesus alone merited heaven. It is up to us to respond and do the will of God and return to loyalty to His authority and principles of His kingdom. Eternal value in human accountability and response to the will of God.
Don’t be deluded by the “bible butchers” who are a dime a dozen in both false camps of the SDA church.
How long have you been an Adventist? All my life (92 years) I heard both preachers and members quote Rev. 22:14 “Blessed are they who do His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life and enter into the city” (and it was always emphasized that only Adventists kept them ALL, including the fourth.
This was the KJV translation. The more accurate ones read: “Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right….”
A curse follows all those left outside the gates.
Baptismal candidates are asked to affirm the SdA beliefs (all 28) before baptism. For many, baptized years ago, there were no set of beliefs such as the 28.
This was the KJV translation. The more accurate ones read: “Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right….”
In fact, Elaine, it is not “more accurate”, in fact is the liberal view because it has no definition of what “wash their robes” means. While the King James is very definitive of what “wash their robes” means and it obviously means, put away sin and do the will of God.
So, “wash their robes” is not wrong. It just has no definition of what the phrase means and allows people like yourself to draw your own conclusion to suit your fancy.
And since you are 92, you ought to know better. Do you want to educate your children and grandchildren to abandon the bible like you do? No one is too old to repent. Do it before it is too late. The door is always open as long as there is any hope and you can return to the true faith you have left and opted for liberal ideas totally outside the biblical norm.
If you repent, and I continue to repent, we may actually see each other in heaven. But if we don’t repent, neither one of us will be there. The Christian life is one of continual and ongoing repentance until Jesus comes. And anyone who plans to be there, better start now, for there is no time like the present.
Hyper liberals will not be there, nor will the hyper conservatives like Fulcrum 7. So neither antinomians, nor legalists will enter those gates into the city. “No bible butchers allowed”. Sign on the door.
Well, Bill. I am not like most commenters whom you love to stereotype. Even Jesus said “I have other sheep who are not of this fold.” Ive always been taught that this means NOOPs (not one of our people) will be in Heaven.
Do you really think, Bill, that people who have never heard of Christianity, mich less Adventist beliefs, will be excluded from Heaven? That’s pretty extreme. I had no idea there were actually Adventists who thought that way.
You certainly are not representative of mainstream fundamentalists. I’m sure that even Ted Wilson would disagree with you.
“Well, Bill. I am not like most commenters whom you love to stereotype. Even Jesus said “I have other sheep who are not of this fold.” Ive always been taught that this means NOOPs (not one of our people) will be in Heaven.
Do you really think, Bill, that people who have never heard of Christianity, mich less Adventist beliefs, will be excluded from Heaven? That’s pretty extreme.”
The Christian faith is very “extreme”. I notice you didn’t finish the quote about “not of this fold,” so “Them also I must bring……”
Why did you ignore the rest of the passage. And yes, there are rare cases of individuals who responded to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and will be saved. But to appeal to this exception to the rule does not negate the rule itself.
And I find that most SDA’s are not SDA anyway. They are what EGW would call “nominal Adventists” who take the name and have little understanding of what true bible Adventism is all about. This includes most leaders and this is why we are now involved with politics, advocate WO, refuse to condemn homosexuality, and for the most part have abandon the bible and EGW.
What society denounces as “radical Islam” is true Islam. And the same about “radical Adventism”. The moderates will be the ones who turn the true believers over for discipline, just as the Jews turned Jesus over and murdered Christ.
The whole world embraces the “false gospel” and the church is in on it all the way.
I tend to agree with much of your diagnosis, Bill. God just didn’t give me a brilliant enough mind or prophetic insight to know that what He has revealed to me is His will for other folks who love and worship Him, much less His will for the whole world.
You seem to have it all figured out so you can pretty much live your life on Adventist autopilot, giving you plenty of leisure time for mote-hunting. I’m cursed with mystical streak that prevents me from living in Flatland. I have a difficult enough time hearing and responding to God’s voice in my life, which I confess is not always as clear and distinct as I would like.
Mind you, I’m pretty clear about what I believe, and I’m even clearer about what I believe to be gospeldygook. But I don’t put much credence in abstract beliefs. It’s in the area of love and mercy in action that I am challenged. And I’m really rather envious of folks like you who don’t seem to think acts of love and mercy are very central to Adventism.
You don’t generally find me doing Kung Fu proof texting on this website. It’s not because I don’t know my Bible. It’s because I know there are folks who are much smarter than me, and who know God better, that can play Scriptural Kung Fu just as well or better.
I agree that those who reject Christ will not be in Heaven. But I don’t know that for sure. And I sure don’t see what that has to do with believing Adventist doctrines as you understand them.
“I tend to agree with much of your diagnosis, Bill. God just didn’t give me a brilliant enough mind or prophetic insight to know that what He has revealed to me is His will for other folks who love and worship Him, much less His will for the whole world.”
I find that somewhat amazing, Nathan. We have the same bible, but you don’t know God’s will for yourself and the rest of humanity. And of course, this allows you to “cop out” on your duty to defend the bible as the word of God that all are accountable to and that reveals His will for humanity. But I admit, this pretty much fits the spirituality of most who post on the forum.
Nathan and Bill,
It is such a burden to be free of. Why would anyone want to worry about whom God is saving? We know in Jesus Christ all things are possible for them that love God, why not hope for the best? As My2cents reminds us in another thread: why judge ye another man’s servant?
Biblically you can’t be a ‘universalist.’ But in the particular you can always ‘hope’ like one. Be like Moses, Heal her now, O God, I beseech you.
I think that line about “Adventist autopilot” is clever. If you use it, be sure to turn it off before you land.
“It is such a burden to be free of. Why would anyone want to worry about whom God is saving?”
That’s right. Why evangelize? Why defend the bible or what it stands for? As the bumper sticker says, “Co-exist”.
Bill,
Can you properly evangelize if you have burdened your self with duties not assigned? We are called to proclaim the goodness of God and His law and most of all the grace and mercy He has bestowed on sinners in Jesus Christ. We are to boldly call all men to repentance. Not worry about which men have repented.
If Jesus Christ tells us to: take no thought for the morrow Why waste time worrying about things we can know nothing and do nothing about?
Why should we burden ourselves worrying about whether mother or father will be in heaven? I entrust them to God and His mercy, He is sufficient and all my hopes for them are in Him, the one who can save to the uttermost.
Take no thought for the morrow
“For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the doctrine are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when those who do not have the teaching, by nature do the things in the teaching, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”
The New King James Version. (1982). (Ro 2:12–17). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Darrel,
My late father-in-law who died just last month was my living embodiment of that scripture you cited. The only times I ever saw him in a church were for weddings and an occasional funeral. He rejected religion as a child because of the contradictions he saw between what people taught and claimed as compared to how they lived and treated others. He was one of the kindest, most caring people you could have ever met and he was the absolute favorite “Papaw” of my children. I tried several times over the years to point his attention to God and each time it was politely rejected.
Dad spent his last years in a Veterans nursing home where he received regular visits from the chaplain, who became a friend. While I typically visited only in the company of my wife, a few weeks before he died I went alone and expressed to him my appreciation for his caring over the years that had sometimes pulled us through a difficult period. I told him that, whether he knew it or not, he was ministering God’s love to us because God was the source of all love. While he said nothing, I could tell he was thinking about it. After he died we heard from both the chaplain and staff that in his final days he had given his heart to God.
So, do I expect my father-in-law to be saved? Yes. Because I trust the loving and powerful God who has transformed me apart from any religious creed or set of doctrines.
” I tried several times over the years to point his attention to God and each time it was politely rejected.”
I don’t care how “kind, and loving, and patronizing” anyone is, if they deliberately reject Christ, they will not be in heaven. Millions of people will be shut out of heaven who opt for “self righteousness” instead of the righteousness of Christ.
So, while it is possible that he actually did accept Jesus, the appeal to some “exception to the rule” is part of the false gospel that many embrace. As Peter said, “There is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
To reject this offer of salvation in Christ will fit no one for the kingdom of God.
Did Jesus not assure one of the thieves being crucified with him that he would be saved? Just as that thief’s last-opportunity appeal for salvation was honored by God, I have been given good evidence from multiple sources that my father-in-law had a similar change of heart.
You judge and condemn far too quickly and whenever things are not exactly the way you see them. I wish you would quit doing that and instead let the love and mercy God offers you to change your attitude so you will first and foremost be seeking the salvation of others and trust Him more.
” I have been given good evidence from multiple sources that my father-in-law had a similar change of heart.”
You never mentioned this in your post, William. You left us with the idea you never saw any response that indicated he repented or looked favorably on your invitation.
So, don’t blame me for the lack of information. I just responded to what you posted as though there was never any positive response. And I concluded that it was possible no one saw or knew what he had done before he died.
Your post left the impression that since he was a “good man” it was not needful for him to accept Christ.
When mao came to power in China, I fantasized about the faithful Christians being martyred, serving prison sentences, etc., etc.
I asked a Chinese church elder about the Christians in his area when Mao came into power. ~”Oh, at that time there were no Christians here.” I knew this area had been evangelized by a worker from the China Inland Mission more than a hundred years ago, with miraculous results, entire villages being converted, hundreds of converts at a time, and so on; so I asked again. He looked me square in the face and said again, with more emphasis “There were no Christians here when Mao ascended.” The look said a lot more than the words.
Whose going to pass judgment on these people? A recent visitor to one of their Bible schools lauded the solid teaching on the cross, justification by faith,and Romans. I’m not sure that these were wacky cultists without solid teaching to rely upon, yet “There were no Christians here when Chairman Mao ascended.”
None of us are fit to judge the actions or faith of another until we have had the exact experience that person has, which is never. As Confucius said “The hypocrite expects a lot from others but requires little of himself”
Unless you have had a gun to your hear or a knife to your throat, don’t be so sure how you will respond when Mao ascends.
“None of us are fit to judge the actions or faith of another until we have had the exact experience that person has, which is never.”
This is blatantly false. Christians judge themselves, and everyone else by the word of God and I mean, every jot and tittle of it. Not some false gospel that attacks the law of God as having no value to determine who is a Christian, and who is not.
While we can not determine the precise motive of people, we can surely determine whether their actions are according to the bible, and I mean all the bible, not just some subjective standard with no viable definition.
A false gospel with no biblical law definition is now the norm in much of the SDA church and gaining ground year by year. People are easily persuaded by some “non-judgmental”religion that suits their carnal experience and allows them to profess Christianity with no change in life style.
A true bible Christian does not “judge” either by his own experience, nor the experience of others, but solely by the word of God.
The evaluation of Confucius is worthless as he gendered a false religion of his own and would have done well to examine his own life by scripture. The delusion intensifies.
Bill, On June 10 of 1951, the then president of the China division read a public statement denouncing GC president William Branson as an imperialist and all colporteurs in China as intelligence agents. A few months later, at Watchman Nee’s Local assembly, the same China division president resisted pressure to confess his “crimes” against the State or participate in the meeting by bringing charges against his accusers.
How is God going to judge the man? Perhaps he refrained simply because his participation in the past resulted in his again being publicly accused. Perhaps he repented of his former weakness. I lack your insight into the motives and character of individuals acting under extreme duress.
Paul always spoke of the success of Abraham when reciting salvation history for instructional purposes. Like God, he didn’t keep track of the failings of the heroes of old. You, on the other hand, seem to relish identifying the single mote that doesn’t fit your paradigm and focusing on that. You function more like the antiChrist, whose hand is against every man.
Confucius was a contemporary of Ezra the priest, who was busy leading his own restoration & reform movement.
I can only imagine Confucius would have leaped at the chance to read the Jewish scriptures. He placed great hope in learning.
Confucius was force for good in China. He still is. I’d imagine he is the Chinese Schoolmaster leading his disciples to Christ. It is not quite the stretch you’d imagine.
For some, it is obvious the devil is busy creating a generic religion that has little or no definition. Sad to say, more than a few SDA’s are “all in” to this agenda.
Sins of ignorance become sins of rebellion when instruction is scorned and rejected. The bible is not ambiguous about the will of God and it is highly definitive in what God requires and what we will all be judge on. So, we can follow all the bible teaches about salvation, or, we can make up our own religion that suits our own agenda. But there is no unity nor compromise between these two concepts.
Bill,
“So, we can follow all the bible teaches about salvation, or, we can make up our own religion that suits our own agenda. But there is no unity nor compromise between these two concepts.”
I couldn’t agree more.
I just don’t trust my deceitful and wicked heart to not deceive me. I have self-doubt.
“I just don’t trust my deceitful and wicked heart to not deceive me. I have self-doubt.”
My objection, William, is this incessant implication and affirmation by many that any “exception to the rule, negates the rule itself.”
This is the mantra of the whole liberal agenda. They find some exception to a biblical mandate, and then try to negate the mandate by way of the exception.
And if you carefully evaluate many of the posts, you will soon see what I mean.
????
????
Bill S,
My sense is that your are a preservationist at heart. As people drift about you sense a kind of loving urge to tug them back to the simple, yet comprehensive will of God revealed in scripture. My sense is that you believe that it is the drift that portends eternally separating one’s self from the will of God, indeed from God.
And it is not just the drift but the having-drifted inevitability of justifying one’s self in their now independence from God. It is this self-justifying use of scripture that you call out in the hope that by correcting, you can bring them to God’s will.
Am I sensing what you are sensing, Bill, in terms of what is behind your tugging at various of us and repeatedly?
” you sense a kind of loving urge to tug them back to the simple, yet comprehensive will of God revealed in scripture.”
That’s a nice way to put it, Bill G. It is obvious that I think it is critical to first affirm the validity of the bible, and then also affirm the bible’s ability to clearly communicate the mind and will of God in regard to sinful humanity.
I reject the “principle based theology” that would have us believe the best we can do is see how others how understood the will of God in the past, and how have responded in affirming some “principle” to be applied to what ever the bible may say. In which case, the bible is not “moral mandates” but “good advice” that we follow on various levels in considering human relationships as well as our relationship to God and His authority.
So, if it seems good to change the day of worship for the sake of a better fellowship and unity, and it brings success, then it must have been the will of the Holy Spirit, and the success it genders is proof of this conclusion.
So Women’s ordination follows this theory and if there is some evidence of “success” it simply proves the church is being led by the Holy Spirit and has made the right decision. This works only if you follow the “principle based theology” that denies moral mandates and allows “free interpretation” of any objective given. And outward success is proof that a right decision has been made. Unity being the final goal for “the common good.”
Thanks for the follow up here Bill S,
As a preservationist at heart, you are starting with first principles, then. And the first principle is that the bible is both valid and able when it comes to clearly communicating the mind and will of God in regard to sinful humanity.
From my earliest years, I sensed that the bible specifically was what God decided to use to reveal what we otherwise are utterly unable to know about God. And I came to believe that knowing about God was essential to being able to qualify for heaven.
I don’t believe I’ve heard elsewhere about what you describe as ‘principle based theology.’ That said, I like it. I understand it to be at least a layer and maybe more than one layer of abstraction up from ‘communicating the mind and will of God in regard to sinful humanity.’ And because ‘principle based theology’ lives in a world of abstractions I’m sensing that you would offer that ‘principle based theology’ cannot be a clear communication of God’s mind and will.
While I sense your point and its validity, I also am reminded of another description of theology. ‘Theology is our attempts to explain our faith.’ My sense is you likely find this description useful as well.
” ‘Theology is our attempts to explain our faith.’ My sense is you likely find this description useful as well.”
Yes, as long as you confess the bible is the final authority to bounce your explanation off of. So a bible Christian continually tries to explain his faith by way of the bible to affirm and prove what he thinks and believes. In which case, he would never say the bible is not clear enough for a conclusion on any given point. This would negate the whole theory.
So bible Christians sit around and discuss various views as they consider what the bible says and means. Never accepting the idea that the bible is ambiguous and open for many interpretations and understandings.
It must be affirmed the bible is consistent with itself, and any misunderstanding must be cleared up by way of scripture. There is no confusion in scripture. Confusion is in the mind of sinful man. This is the only viable confession of faith any true Protestant would endorse.
Anything else leaves the door open to every “Tom, Dick and Harry” to affirm their on “private interpretation” as being as valid as anyone else. Thus Peter affirms the bible is of “no private interpretation” and is clear in and of itself for any necessary instruction of truth for salvation.
Rome would never accept this confession of faith about the bible. Only the church can interpret the word and members must accept it.