Vote on Ordination: Majority Says “No” to Women as Adventist Ministers
By AT News Team, Updated Twice July 9, 2015: The delegates gathered at the General Conference Session in San Antonio took the vote that was scheduled nearly a year ago and has been the focus of much discussion, many hopes and even greater apprehension. “Is it acceptable for division executive committees, as they may deem it appropriate in their territories, to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry?” The official ballot count was 977 yes and 1,381 no. Or, 41% to 59%, which is a significantly greater yes vote than the last time the same idea was put forward in 1995 at the session in Utrecht, Holland.
As the clock neared the agreed time for the vote, some 34 delegates made points of order, seeking more time for the discussion, complaining that the reports from the study committee took the entire morning. Pastor Raymond Hartwell, president of the Pennsylvania Conference, stated that some people have been waiting in line at the microphones since the morning and moved that there be two more hours of discussion. The parliamentarian ruled that such a motion is out of order since Hartwell was making a point of order which cannot be used for such a purpose under the Rules of Order. Pastor Armando Miranda, one of the GC vice presidents, said that was because so much time was taken in the morning for the committee.
At 4:30 pm, the time previously mandated, the chairman, Dr. Michael Ryan, a retiring GC vice president, announced that there would be a season of prayer before the balloting started. All over the Alamodome delegates knelt together in prayer. He ended the season of prayer by praying for the entire delegation and the decision before them.
The GC Secretariat, in consultation with Nancy Lamoreaux, chief information officer of the GC, had prepared an alternative plan for the vote in case the electronic voting system did not work. This proved to be important because the delegates voted on the first day of the session to abandon the electronic voting system after it failed test runs.
“We have tried to be transparent, honest and thoughtful, and to ensure the privacy of the vote to the best of our ability,” Lamoreaux stated in a GC news release this morning. The paper secret ballot system was explained to all of the delegates when the time came to vote.
Delegates were dismissed by row and lined up at 14 stations situated around the seating area on the main floor of the Alamodome. Each delegate has a badge with a barcode and these were scanned by a staff member from the denomination’s Auditing Service who then handed them a ballot. This was designed to make sure that only delegates voted.
The ballots were printed on special paper 5.5 by 8.5 inches in size with a “Yes” in five languages on one half and a “No” in the same five languages on the other half. Delegates marked a box with a pen to indicate their vote.
There were four collection boxes where the ballots were deposited, each locked with clear sides so that it could be seen that there were ballots in the boxes. After all of the delegates had marked and deposited their ballots, the boxes were opened on work tables at the front of the auditorium and the auditors, together with the GC secretaries, opened the boxes and counted the ballots.
Dr. Jan Paulsen, the retired former GC president, made an appeal for the delegates to vote yes which brought a handful of angry reactions. Many church members around the world have expressed a strong antipathy to the disrespect that they feel was shown toward him in this reaction.
Dr. Ted Wilson, the current GC president, pledged to go with either outcome. He said, “I think it is well known what I think about this issue,” evidently referring to the opposition to women’s ordination that he has privately expressed for a number of years. Ironically, his father, Pastor Neal Wilson, who served as GC president until 1990, supported extending ordination to women pastors.
Natasha Nebblett, the president of the independent youth organization, Generation of Youth for Christ (GYC), made a statement against women’s ordination claiming that many young adults in the denomination share her view. A young woman immediately sent a Twitter; “The female leader of GYC decides to say no to confirming the leadership of other women in ministry? You can’t make this stuff up!”
After the vote, the delegation from the North American Division met in Room 103 in the Convention Center to discuss the outcome. One of the major problems with this decision is that (so far as all polls show and in the opinion of the vast majority of the youth workers contacted by Adventist Today) young adults in the northern hemisphere are very negative about the refusal of the denomination to ordain women serving as pastors.
Three lines of thought emerged from the comments made during the discussion that went all afternoon. In each case the speakers addressed more than the specific question to be voted on and gave their opinions about the larger issue of whether women can have a role in pastoral ministry as the spiritual leader of a congregation.
Many of the speakers who lined up at the “No” microphone focused their comments on the Bible and expressed the view that the Bible does not permit women to be ordained ministers. They said Adventists hold the Bible as the only foundation for our teachings and it must be the basis for deciding any controversies; the Bible teaches that God’s word applies to all cultures; the Bible teaches that God created men and women with different roles; the Bible teaches that an elder must be of noble character and the “husband of one wife” in a New Testament passage; the Bibles is clear that no woman ever functioned as an elder; the Bible shows Jesus and the apostles as a model for church governance and women did not exercise this leadership. At least one speaker stated that allowing women’s ordination undermines three of the denomination’s Fundamental Beliefs. Some speakers stated that God used women to lead spiritual revivals and as prophets, and they are encouraged to participate in gospel work, but that does not necessitate ordination.
Many of the speakers who lined up at the “Yes” microphone expressed the view that it is important to include women and men equally in the ordained ministry. They stated that the Bible teaches that men and women were equal in all things at Creation with no female submission to male headship mentioned until after the fall as a result of sin; women are used as leaders in multiple ways by God throughout Scripture; Jesus made no reference to gender, just service; the Holy Spirit give spiritual gifts to all believers for the fulfillment of the mission of the church with particular mention that in the last days spiritual leadership will be poured out on men and women and ordination is the church’s official recognition of the choices that the Holy Spirit has made. Some speakers pointed out that certain Bible passages have been misunderstood by those who oppose women’s ordination. The text in Timothy is not about ordination but learning from teachers. The text in 1 Corinthians is not about ordination but improper dress. The text in 1 Timothy 1:12 applies to both elders and deacons and there clearly were women serving as deacons. It was also pointed out that Ellen White never used these passages to limit women functioning as leaders. These speakers agreed that there is no divine command in favor of or in opposition to ordaining women and Ellen White has written nothing opposing it, so the basis for it is the gifting of the Holy Spirit. It would be theologically wrong to impose an interpretation on people since Biblical truth cannot be decided by vote. Adventists in various situations must decide the matter based on what is best for God’s work where they are.
A few speakers tried to bridge the two opposing views. Some suggested that the GC should affirm that men can be in headship in the home and follow the traditional pattern of church leadership although it is not presented as an imperative in the Bible; that the church should recognize that leaders were chosen to further the mission and unity of God’s people and if that can be better met by women in leadership then it should be allowed. At least one speaker pointed out that in the Bible, God called Deborah to lead His people and did not require circumcision of the Gentiles in the New Testament church, demonstrating instead unity amongst differences. The church cannot take it upon itself to impose what God does not clearly impose.
Natasha Nebblett, the president of the independent youth organization, Generation of Youth for Christ (GYC), made a statement against women’s ordination, claiming that many young adults in the denomination’s North American Division share her view. A young woman immediately sent a Twitter; “The female leader of GYC decides to say no to confirming the leadership of other women in ministry? You can’t make this stuff up!”
A youth pastor in New York City sent a Twitter comment: “The next time someone wants to know why the youth are leaving the church, show them a tape of this meeting.” ….
At the “No” Microphone
One of the first speakers made a motion to first “deal with the disobedience of the union conferences that went ahead” with the ordination of women pastors. The chair declined to take this motion and the delegate complained that his motion was not respected, but nothing came of it. The exchange seemed to indicate that some of those against women’s ordination wanted to take a very hard line on the topic.
Dr. Frank Hasel, a Bible scholar at Southern Adventist University, stated that is shows wisdom to not to treat the issue “as if it is a pillar of our faith. It never has been in the past. It is not now and it won’t be in the future.” He seemed to accept that ordination of women was happening and would continue to happen at least in some areas, because his main concern was “how do we preserve the rights of those who do not think women should be ordained?”
The next speaker stated, “Jesus is the truth [and] we practice the truth. … He didn’t ordain any woman to the gospel ministry than [and] we need to follow Jesus.”
An older delegate said that “since 1973 I’ve been part of the committees that dealt with this issue. There has not been much change since the first time. The same Bible texts, the same paragraphs from the Spirit of Prophecy always come up, and we always come to conclusion that we are based on the Scriptures and will abide by the Scriptures. Someone asked me what the strongest argument against the women’s ordination is and I said, I’m not looking for arguments; I’m looking for attitudes. My concern is to keep the body together, so I plead with the delegates to accept the same way of reading the Scriptures; not having two ways of reading the Scriptures, one biblical and one cultural.”
Doug Batchelor, a pastor from Sacramento, California, who directs the Amazing Facts media ministry, spoke against women serving as pastors and on behalf of male headship theology, which he believes the Bible requires. In the last year he raised large amounts of money to print a book and send several copies to each of the 6,000 local churches in the North American Division, as well as quantities overseas.
Dr. Gullermo Biaggi, the president of Euro-Asia Division, who was elected a GC vice president on Tuesday this week, indicated that as he reads the Bible and the writings of Ellen White it appears to him that women’s ordination is against God’s will. “I consider that it is better for our church to have only one body of ordained pastors,” instead of allowing ordination in some divisions and not others. He appealed for the need to stay away from women in the Adventist ministry “because of mission” barriers. In Russia, “I’ve been told that we are an American sect. The Orthodox Church in our region says don’t ordain women because it’s not biblical.”
Khanyisani Malufu, a delegate from Zimbabwe, also spoke against having different policies for ordination in different parts of the world. “When someone is ordained into ministry they are ordained for the world church.” Woman can still be very useful even if they are not ordained, he said.
Colleen Zimbeva, a delegate from the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division, advocated maintain the status quo. She said women “have been teaching, preaching and evangelizing. Things have been running smoothly with no problems. I looked at the Spirit of Prophecy which is very silent about [the topic]. It is better to be conservative, to keep the present situation and the unity of the worldwide church.”
Kevin Nwagwe, a delegate from Nigeria: “A committee was set up to find the position of the church [and] it is not clear on women’s ordination. This means the church is still open to further study and if we take a decision today and then find another way [later], what will we say?” He expressed concern that it would confuse people if one division ordained women and others do not. “I ask the delegates to vote no not because women are inferior. We need our sisters. God created a divine order at creation. Sin did not change this. God gave Adam headship.”
David Poloche, a pastor from Venezuela, said “there was a time [in the Old Testament] when there were no judges and everyone did as they pleased. That will not happen to the Adventist Church. We have been united until today. For more than 30 years specialists have sought Scripture to support women’s ordination and the church has been united in not adopting women’s ordination. We haven’t found a new manuscript of the Bible that says differently. The last two years study by our theologians has proven the same as we believe today. We need to be united. There cannot be divisions that say one thing and divisions that say another thing. That is not unity.”
Samuel Larmie, a pastor from Ghana, stated, “The devil is against the truth. What we are talking about is not just about allowing women to teach. We are not talking about prophets. We are talking about the initiation of women into ministry. The Holy Spirit is our infallible guide. Ellen White was never ordained. Jesus and Paul never ordained women.”
Frederick Nyaga, a delegate from Kenya, said “at all the past GC Sessions this issue has not been approved. Does this mean that we don’t need unity? If there is a time that we needed unity, it is now. We are not against women doing ministry, but if we are going to say No, let’s say No as a church. It is not an issue of life or death, so I’d rather we say No to maintain unity.”
At the “Yes” Microphone
Pastor Raymond Hartwell, president of the Pennsylvania Conference, asked a multipart question: “If Ellen White wrote that the Lord ordained her, and wrote that the Holy Spirit ordains both men and women to be pastors, and in Joel, God’s word states, ‘I will pour out my spirit on all flesh … for sons and daughters,’ then is it possible we are not honoring God by refusing permission for women to be ordained?”
Dr. John Brunt, a well-known Bible scholar and senior pastor in California, shared that he has worked with five women as associate pastors and has seen them work with more than 14 men as associate pastors. He has seen them work well together. They just want to minister alongside the men. “For my ministry to be recognized in a way the world church is not willing to recognize these women makes me feel unclean, as if there is segregation. It is my deep moral conviction that unity of mission is achieved through diversity of practice, not requiring or forbidding.” He spoke of his experience in segregated South Africa when black members of the church were not permitted on “white only” beaches. He considered the segregation issue to be a moral issue. He rejected segregation on moral grounds because of his commitment to equity. Likewise, with women’s ordination, he cares because it also involves a commitment to equality. To not care about women’s ordination is to ignore the moral issues.
Dr. Lawrence Geraty, a Bible scholar and retired former president of La Sierra University in California, stated that there is no Biblical basis for ordination by gender. “We in North America are appealing for the world church to recognize the need in our division, to allow us to use women since men have already been granted recognition. It is a matter of justice in harmony with Fundamental Belief Number Four. We are not forcing other divisions to have ordained females. We are asking for the graciousness to be allowed to make our own choice. The mission field in the 20th century was the global south and the global north facilitated that. We now ask that the global south help the global north in mission in the 21st century.”
Pastor Bradford Newman, secretary of the Pacific Union Conference, said women as pastors are here to stay and they have been a blessing to those whom they have reached. “We do not specify gender and there is nothing in the Bible regarding women’s ordination that the Church agrees upon. YES is the key to finishing the work: Y is for youth and reaching them. E is for evangelism; 7 billion men and women need every spiritual and ministerial calling for mission. The Holy Spirit does not distinguish gender when giving gifts. S is for submission to one another in love. It is the time to reach out and ask what will assist other parts of the world.”
Marc Woodson, a pastor from Concord, California, pointed out that this issue is not found in the Fundamental Beliefs, in the GC Working Policy, in the constitution and bylaws, or in official church statements. It is not included as a testing truth nor does it involve any other major Adventist belief. It is not a moral issue. If we do not move forward with women’s ordination, we will gain a false sense of unity. Unity must be based on mission not on uniformity. As a world church we are based on diversity which is why we have 13 divisions.
Pastor Jeroen Tuinstra, president of Belgian-Luxembourg Conference, said the reality is that God is calling women to pastoral ministry and leadership in my part of the world. They can nurture and guide spiritually our youth and immigrants that come from other cultures. They only want to respond to God’s calling, not to cause a controversy. They feel they seen as less capable only because of their gender. If we move forward with WO, we will keep the church “real.”
Caleb Jara, a delegate from North America, stated that God calls us to preach the gospel and in Job the Bible says, in the last days the Holy Spirit will pour out on all flesh the power to preach; it will go to everybody. Your daughters will have the gift of prophecy and spiritual gifts will be given without regard to gender. In Revelation it says that we as a people have already been made a “priesthood.” Ellen White has written that the Holy Spirit prepares workers of both genders to become pastors for the flock. The Bible does not prohibit women’s ordination.
Pastor Lowell Cooper, a GC vice president, made six points. Number one, a Yes vote best aligns with theology of ordination report; a No vote puts practice in conflict with our theology of ordination. (2) A Yes vote best aligns with the Biblical teaching about spiritual gifts; a No vote denies the God-given teaching on spiritual gifts. (3) A Yes vote is an expression of permission to allow the Church to react to varying situations around the world; a No vote blocks opportunity for mission. (4) A Yes vote indicates trust in our brothers and sisters; a No vote shows distrust. (5) A Yes vote is entirely consistent with earlier decisions to permit women to be ordained as local elders; a No vote is inconsistent. (6) A Yes vote enables the world church to move forward with an agenda of more than 50 years.
James Standish, communication director for the South Pacific Division, said this issue is distracting to the church’s mission. There are Bible following Seventh-day Adventists who believe women should and should not be ordained. What should we do with this distraction? It’s not a matter of salvation. There is no Biblical distinction between pastors and elders; it is a manmade distinction. It is not worth splitting the church or imposing one view on another person. We need to let each other live in peace.
Roger Robertson, a delegate from North America, stated that this is not an issue based in the Fundamental Beliefs or the pillars of the faith of the early pioneers. This is an issue of the world. “I want to follow the Lord the way He is presented in the Bible. Paul and Barnabas also had disunity. Please allow us to go in the direction we think we need to because we believe it is based on the Word of God; we are preaching the same gospel message as you are.”
Roscoe Howard, a delegate from the NAD: “We all see the world through different cultural lenses that affect every aspect of life. It cannot be escaped. Culture invades everything and it will continue as the world grows larger. I used to be against women’s ordination until God gave me a text; Ephesians 6:5. Slave owners used this text to support slavery in the United States. This Bible text can be misconstrued and used to suit any diabolical or holy perspective.” Other texts can be misused the same way.
Pastor Marvin Wray, a pastor from California, stated that this issue is about methods of enhancing the work of spreading the gospel, not about theology. From North America, “we strove to give you what you needed to meet the needs of the global south. Would you please allow us the same privilege that we gave you even when we did not agree with everything that was needed to help you? We must allow for variance by division, otherwise it will be destructive of the church and of the mission.”
Pastor Glenn Townend, the newly elected president of the South Pacific Division, said we are united in mission. If the church for the last 40 years has been discussing the issue of the role of women in the church and there is no consensus, then it obviously does not unite us. We don’t need uniformity. We need the Spirit of God to unite us. We don’t dictate how people worship and we should not dictate who leads.
Charles Sandefur, the former president of ADRA currently working for a health care ministry, shared how he knew a woman who waited 40 years to be ordained and was better qualified than he, yet he was ordained as a young man. There are differences of conscience. Circumcision and non-circumcision were allowed to be a matter of choice in the New Testament church. We can do the same thing here with conscience and ordination. We don’t need permission, but blessing to fulfill the mission of the church.
Pastor Bruno Vertallier, president of the Inter-European Division. said we are concerned about the doctrine of creation, but we continue to discriminate on the creations of the Creator. These are His creations. The women were created by God and are precious to God. If we want to be consistent, we need to recognize women in their full dimensions. Glorify the Creator by respecting those whom He created.
Dr. Cheryl Doss, a faculty member in the seminary at Andrews University, pointed out that two thirds of the TOSC agreed that ordination should be opened to women. This is an indication of the Holy Spirit’s leading. Just as the body requires different parts to function, the church requires different parts to function to the best of its ability. Ordination is functional not sacramental in Adventist theology. We need the freedom for divisions to make decisions to help their part of the body function well.
Pastor Ricardo Graham, president of the Pacific Union Conference, reminded the delegates that the GC created Regional Conferences in 1944 because of segregation of races and these conferences have proved beneficial for the church. Accommodations have been made to allow people to worship and minister appropriately. Why can’t this be done again? Even a new Fundamental Belief [on the doctrine of brotherhood] was created to allow for the needs.
After the vote, the delegation from the North American Division met in Room 103 in the Convention Center to discuss the outcome. …..
But there is suffering in life, and there are defeats. No one can avoid them. But it’s better to lose some of the battles in the struggles for your dreams than to be defeated without ever knowing what you’re fighting for.
— Paulo Coelho
Thank you to all of those brave souls who voted yes and Knew what they were “fighting for”. The battle for WO is not lost, this is a defeat, but the struggle is not over. The concept of women doing effective ministry in this church will never be defeated. Ellen White was much more effective as a church leader AFTER she returned from her travels. She had become a “fundamental alternative to the status quo of inactivity by many women in leadership and ministry.
P.S. The calls for unity and harmony will now double up in San Antonio to silence support for WO once and for all…interesting!
I believe God has answered our prayers. Thanks for your prayers.
God has spoken and gave his church the final direction on woman ordination.The church must focus on its mission.No one is defeated the holy spirit has been leading and let us remember the holy angels have been walking in the session. The latter rain will fall and Jesus will come.Thank you lord to show you have been in charge of your work.
So the Holy Spirit has been waiting lo these many years for uppity modern Eves to get out of the way of the Latter Rain?
I am certainly glad we got that problem cleared up!
Ah Jim, modern Eves don’t have to be ordained to receive the Latter Rain. At least I thought so. Maybe I am missing something.
Nor do modern Adams have to be ordained.
We have expended and continue to expend enormous time and energy debating something which is not a doctrine but rather a practice.
This is no “final” answer–it will go on for decades until the church enters the 21st century. This vote surely kills evangelism in western countries and excludes those we are trying to reach here. But apparently 59% don’t care.
How can it kill evangelism, EM? In fact it should spur more evangelism, for which you dont need ordination except that by the Holy Spirit. So take it easy, and begin in Jerusalem
EM is right BePositive. Most of my friends and family would not even consider visiting a church that practices sexism. The people I know think of sexism as unethical, and would only take a Christian church seriously if it was an ethical organization.
Jenifer,
I am sure, then, that your friends and family would not visit a church that holds the biblical truth that homosexuality is a perversion and not an “alternative lifestyle.” Who needs them in the church?
Wow Eduard, am I to understand that you consider yourself a CHRISTian and you just said “Who needs them in the church?” Perhaps you need to reexamine what it means to be a follower of Christ and what He expects of you in terms of your attitude toward others, especially others outside the church that we are trying to reach.
Ehem, excuse me. We’re now in the 21st century, and sorry to say, two young Brazilian graduate students who visited our church 3 weeks ago will not return to our church when they learned that our next Pastor is a woman from Colombia who graduated from Newbold College, UK. We can’t please everyone. Women ordination will turn away conservative prospective members, and and vice versa
The only winner at this time is, the devil. The rest of us are going to be spending our time debating this issue
You do not have to be ordained to evangelize. This is a commission to all members.
“God has spoken and gave his church the final direction on woman ordination.The church must focus on its mission.”
I agree but will those who support WO accept the GC action in Official Session? It doesn’t look as though from what I have observed.
Equality is a straw man as that is not the issue. What examples do we have from Scripture about Spiritual leadership by males? There is much more.
Take a look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzHXWQcDCfQ
Dumb question: What happens to those women pastors already ordained by the “rebel” Unions?
Exactly!
TED have said that, they will all remain in situ & that the Division, will work with the Pastors, Churches & ministries to continue to support them.
The vote at this time, appears to me to have put the Cart before the Horse…all the wrong way around…
Second dumb question: Will the “rebel” Unions now stop ordaining women?
1) Those who responded to Jan Paulsen with boos and hisses displayed their true spirit more clearly than any words could.
2) I hope that Natasha Nebblett realizes her dream of motherhood. Not all young couples who wish to be patents are able to conceive. Regardless, I thought her a bit presumptuous to speak for those young women who feel called by God to pursue other paths of service.
Jim,
What is the biblical evidence that “those young women” were called to be “pastors.? The notion that they “feel called by God”? Should we depend on the whims and “feelings” of some hormonal men and women to establish our theology as a church?
Paulsen broke the rules when he used his comments time to push the Africans and South Americans to vote YES for WO. He treated those delegates as children that can be manipulated at will. He was arrogant and dismissive, and he did more than he will ever know to make up the minds of the undecided and get them to vote against WO.
This is the main problem with NAD. This division has been so arrogant and condescending towards the members outside America and so used to impose its will on the world-wide church that now that the tables have turned and the SDA church is outside North America they cannot take defeat and whine like little girls.
You wrote: “What is the biblical evidence that “those young women” were called to be “pastors.? The notion that they “feel called by God”?” Where is the Biblical evidence any young man has been called to be a pastor?
William,
My point. Working as a “pastor” is not a “call” but a job. When you apply for a job at Walmart and you are accepted you don’t go home and tell your wife: “I WAS CALLED to work at Walmart.” You state: “My application to work at Walmart was accepted.”
This nonsense about “being called by God” is intended to provide a false sense of divine approval for a job like all the other jobs. The claim also implies that the one one the job has special “divine power” or “authority.” Again, this is a deception perpetuate in order to dupe the members.
Ask your “pastor,” what is the evidence that he was called? He will have nothing to show.
That isn’t what Epehesians 4:8-12 says. “Pastors” (in the KJV) is listed among the gifts given by the Holy Spirit “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (v12). So, if being an apostle, prophet or evangelist is a calling, so is being a pastor. Plus, the listing of gifts is not not given with any reference to gender so any claim of gender connection is not supported by the text.
Eduard, the disrespect for the clergy in this comment is way out of bounds. I have interviewed hundreds of pastors over the years and they all have a personal story of a sense of being called by God into ministry. Some of these stories are simply miraculous, others not so spectacular. I can tell you after 44 years as a minister, it is not a job anyone would do unless they had a strong, extraordinary sense that God wants you to do it. It is no fun most of the time! Lots of church members think they have more expertise in Biblical studies, counseling, administration, community outreach, almost any topic, despite the fact that they have no education, no experience to speak of and many of their ideas are simply childish. Have you been a pastor? I am not sure you really know what you are talking about. It is not a job!!
“and whine like little girls.”
Your respect for the female gender is duly noted.
Beth,
If you haven’t learned yet from your personal or other kind of experience, little girls are notorious about whining often without reason. Not so the boys.
This is a verified fact, not a personal opinion, as is the fact that most women are very moody and hard to understand one week during the month.
My wife told me that about girls and women, and I trust her because she speaks for you all. So, pretend that this is not true.
Please tell me you’re being sarcastic.
…and duly noted again.
Eduard- your wife does not speak for me. Only I speak for me.
This vote is going to further alienate young people in N. America, for sure, & in other parts of the world as well. End result will be the “graying” of Adventists in America.
Think about that as you see the amount of tithe dwindle & the ability to financially support the work as well as the salaries around the world.
Eduard, by your logic I speak for your wife too. And from here it looks like she got it all wrong.
Eduard C. Hanganu–I don’t believe that Jan Paulsen is a member of the NAD. He came to the GC from the European Division, which I believe may have included Africa at the time, although I may stand to be corrected.
That is true, Jenifer Paulsen was born in Norway in 1935, and worked in Africa, Europe and America. He was GC president from 1999 to 2010, all according to Wikipedia. I met him at a camp meeting in Cicero, Indiana, and I have a picture with him. He never struck me as a genius. His most important characteristic is his height.
He spent his two GC presidential terms in the NAD and represents well the decadent Western culture. He is another “white American,” arrogant and overconfident by definition, and as condescending and patronizing as possible towards all who are in disagreement with him on any matter.
Should we assume that you have, and will continue to return the tithes forwarded from the “decadent Western Culture”?
I could not agree more Eduard. Nail on the head. We are expected to be the ‘feeling’ based church of God. Not wise at all.
“The notion that they “feel called by God”? Should we depend on the whims and “feelings” of some hormonal men and women to establish our theology as a church?”
Paulsen’s comments were in line with his thinking even whilst he was President-unsafe, compromising.
God will always be in charge of His church.
Eduard, your comment is alarmingly anti-American and shows little spirit of unity.
Then is it OK for the pro group to profess to speak for young people?
I do not agree with hisses or booing but Paulsen’s claim that he still was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit what does that mean? That he can speak patronizingly to Africans?
“1) Those who responded to Jan Paulsen with boos and hisses displayed their true spirit more clearly than any words could.”
I do not condone such behavior but why did Paulsen talk patronizingly to those who engaged kin that behavior?
Isn’t it almost as bad to speak disparagingly of Natasha Nebblett?
Let’s see now! Women professors in the seminary are preparing MEN to be ordained ministers but they (the women) cannot be ordained! I guess a majority of the delegates believe women are not equal to me.
This is precisely the reason why some have insisted this was really about equality of sexes, and thence to marriage equality. Nothing to do with evangelism or ministry to the Youth.
Michael,
Of course, women are not “equal” to men. Men and women are COMPLEMENTARY creatures, not equal. Is it for reasons of inequality that women do not play in the professional “football”? Why don’t they seek equality in this matter? Why don’t they sue for it?
It makes me sick to look around and see so many emasculated men who would do everything to please some women who don’t know their place in the church.
Eduard
And what, pray tell, is “their place in the church”?
Michael,
You ask me this question you have not read your Bible. There is no textual evidence in the Bible that women ever functioned as priests, elders, apostles, or church leaders. A woman cannot be an “elder” because an elder is a man. Check the original biblical languages.
A woman cannot be a “father.” My father was a man. A woman, though, can be a “mother.” My mother was, of course, a woman. A women’s role in the church is different from that of a man’s role. Do a little study, and you will find out that the Bible is abundantly clear about this issue.
Good afternoon Eduard,
I don’t think what you are saying is correct.There are several passages in the Bible, which showed that God used women as well as men to advance his work. In the Book of Acts chapter 8 for example, Saul persecuted the church, and according to the Scriptures, they, meaning male and female who were stationed at Jerusalem went about preaching the gospel. Others have argued to look at Genesis, there was distinct roles between Adam and Eve, but God said to the Adam and Eve, go have sex and make more children to populate the earth, and in addition to that govern the earth , and everything on it. Then some argue that Paul say women must not teach or speak in the amongst the church members within the four walls where everyone gather to worship God; However, Paul says, according to the law, women should not speak in church but ask questions when the go home and what not. Thus what law is he talking about? Then some say well Paul say to Timothy, well a bishop should be the husband of one wife. Well of course, what do you expect him to marry a man or an animal? Listen God assign the Levites for a purpose to serve him, the Apostles were assign a purpose to be missionaries and to make missionaries or disciples. This was followed with miracles and signs that many would believe? Were they successful? The Adventist belief is that you have to be conferred the title of ordained to do gospel ministry, and where gospel ministry is doing the ordinances of the church.
As such this is the purpose of the Adventist minister, to host communion, baptize, teach, ordain other ministers, and so on. So if this what the title is calling you to do, then in essence you doing a work. The list of things is the job description of what the pastor have to do. Thus it is a non issue, since both men and women are doing this work. Some from the genuity of their being and love for God, and others for the sake of the benefits he or she can get from it. So are they go on mission? No not necessary. The purpose of the pastor is edify and train others to be disciples. They are the sub shepherds that are taking care of God’s flock. Are all of them doing that?
So in essence what is going with some church members? It is a matter of Bible interpretation and social upbringing. It begs the question if they take instruction from their mother or a female relative at home or in the community. It can also be a fight over salary again. So God help this system, and for those who planning to set up their own system, please do not use the General Conference symbols, logo everything for they can take legal action as the church is a creature of the state (the US Federal System), and you can possibly lose
Eduard-
Some good observations. But the beat goes on and those who have been convinced that culture trumps the Bible will likely not accept your appeal to Scripture.
I am fully in support of this!
Papua New Guinea, South Pacific Division
Hi Michael! A professor can teach can train medical students while he/she is not a doctor
“What a shame to see a former GC President Dr Jan Paulsen campaigning for the YES Vote regardless of the pro-instruction of not engaging in any conversation during voting.God Bless Pr. Ted Wilson for your Stand.
Paulson is not all right. Age must have caught up with him. He deserved to be shown that he crossed the line.
Thus you revile a man of God who had devoted his entire life in service to Christ and His Church.
Jim,
I don’t “revile” Paulson. I make a judgment about his behavior which was out of order. As a former GC president he should have known better.
It disgusted me to see the lack of respect for the former president, Jan Paulsen. Surely in whatever country you are from, your parents taught you to respect those who were called by God and set up by Him to be in authority!
Asha,
The question is whether or not Paulsen was “called by God and set up by Him to be in authority.” What is the VERIFIABLE evidence for the claim?
Trump Selects G.C. Leader Ted Wilson as V.P. Running Mate
Trump Tower, N.Y.– Today Donald Trump, presumptive Republican nominee, announced his selection of a Vice President running mate. It was a move that shocked some and amazed many. Adventists everywhere are celebrating because Trump’s VP pick is none other than their leader, Eld. Ted N.C. Wilson, president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
“We have a lot in common,” said Trump. “Ted has zero political experience, just like me. Ted denigrates women’s ordination, and I denigrate women in general. Ted has an autocratic style of leadership, and I have a super-autocratic style. Ted, who grew up in Egypt with missionary parents, speaks Egyptian which sounds like gibberish; and I just speak plain nonsense.”
Then Trump added, “Ted used to live in New York City, so we share ‘New York Values.’ And we are both devout Christians; we both love to read Two Corinthians.” Analysts have suggested that Trump is trying to woo the evangelical vote or to make atonement for mocking another Adventist, Ben Carson.
Wilson announced that he will tutor Trump on how to sound like a church-goer so he can boost his “Christian” credentials. The first lesson will be “How to Pronounce ‘II Corinthians.’”
The General Conference executive committee announced that it will ask embattled Brazilian president Dilma Rousseff to assume the role of Interim G.C. President.
Elder Wilson is now challenged to lead a church where if only 205 more delegates had voted Yes out of a total of 2,358 delegates, the Yes tally would have exceeded the No tally, if by only 1.
Or, had the vote required two thirds of the voting delegates to accept the statement, surely a not unreasonable level for a church wide proposal, there would have been no decision today.
A wise administrator, and Elder Wilson certainly qualifies when it comes to reading votes, will see that today there was truly no decision for the church. Now it is up to Elder Wilson to take this 59/41 shaped church forward.
We will learn for starters how he proposed to that we move forward with his Sabbath sermon in less than three days.
Elder Wilson has promised to abide by the will of the delegates, and the will of the delegates is clearly a no-decision today with regard to delegating to the Division officers the responsibility to advance the ordination of women when and where they see the Lord leading.
The will of the people is also evident that more than 40% of the delegates are proven to believe women are rightfully to be ordained to the ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Clearly this vote makes it clear women’s ordination has support vastly beyond the Union Conferences which have already ordained women ministers.
This actually may be exactly the support that Elder Wilson needs to moving the church forward, women pastors and all.
Unions and Conferences that have been ordaining have been doing so in rebellion to established positions. No votes in 1990 NAD went on to ordain anyway. No vote in 1995 Netherlands Union went on to ordain anyway. It is rebellion, brothers and sisters. Nothing to be proud of.
Mururi,
I agree. Extreme arrogance, a dismissive attitude towards those who don’t agree with them, and the claim that their opinions and culture are the best. I would have disbanded NAD and the Netherlands Union when this happened to set an example for those who would be tempted to act in the same rebellious way.
And you would have thereby forfeited a substantial portion of the GC revenue stream. And further alienated the 41.3% of the delegates who voted YES, not to mention the millions of believers who agree with them.
You have an interesting but by no means unique notion of how to build-up the body of Christ.
Jim,
God’s church doesn’t need the American dollar to exist. In fact, it would do better without that “revenue stream.” Maybe the church leaders would learn to live modest lives like the common members, not wardrobes worth thousands of dollars and lifestyles of princes.
Dollars corrupt, and too many dollars corrupt absolutely.
Jim, Dangerous to protect money at the expense of people’s lives. Ask, Aaron at the foot of the mountain left to manage the children of Israel. God wiped out the whole earth save for 8 who chose Him. Better to obey than sacrifice. And yes, I agree with my brothers, this money driven management style has a strong ability to influence towards bad decision making. Eg. NAD I believe wills and flexes so much power because of its $ contribution….so must we say amen to that?
And I suppose that your God would have zapped Adam and Eve when they rebelled to make an example out of them. And it would have worked, because today there would be no human race not to mention any SDA church (nor any other church) to bother with today.
Jim,
If you haven’t read your Bible yet, God indeed zapped Adam and Eve when they rebelled against him and made an example out of them. We are suffering in full the consequences of their rebellion.
From my conversations, as an AT reporter, with a number of GC Session leaders and laypersons from Africa, the Caribbean, South America and Asia, I thought that the No vote would win 70%/30% to 75/25. So, I am encouraged by the 59/41 vote. If President Wilson had joined President Paulsen, a majority vote for Yes would have been possible.
From my conversations, developing world youth are more open to WO than are their elders, and Latino members are more open than are African members.
Too many developing nation delegates, like President Wilson, don’t do nuance; issues like WO are simply pro vs. con. But given the 1995 Utrecht vote, our church is going in an enlightened direction. We in the NAD must strategize on how to show the world church that WO is historically Adventist, theologically mandated, ethically vital, and missionally imperative. Meanwhile, may many more unions (where, according church policy, decisions on ordination are made) join the Pacific Union, the Columbia Union, and the courageous German union, in ordaining women who are called by God to ministry!
Please do not celebrate rebellion
Jim,
There is no biblical basis for WO, otherwise the matter would be simple: “Thus sayth the Lord.” All the claims that the Bible approves and supports WO are based on assumptions and speculations. Look at Angel Rodriguez and Gerhard Pfandl. Both BRI members, both co-workers and friends for decades, both claimed to be respected ” biblical scholars,” and both in opposition on the issue.
There is no basis to ordain as clergy non-circumcised Jewish men either. And pretty sure not all our pastors have made that cut!
Steve, you do have a “cutting” sense of humor, you rascal!
Such a razor wit that you have… 🙂 !
The New Testament makes it clear that the old priesthood with all of its requirements was done away with by the sacrifice and ministry of Christ, so we are all equals before God. So there is ZERO basis in scripture for men alone serving in ministry roles. That is, unless you’re still living “under the law” that Christ freed us from.
“developing world youth” With little experience and too many devoted to a *me* culture.
This vote would have been more appropriate had we beenJehovah’s Witnesses!
Old time SDA’S and JW have a common link: an abhorrence and mistrust of secular, “worldly” godless, universities.
So Jehovah’s Witness families prohibit their children from attending university.
This results in a church that is “blue collar”, with ALL women members being housewives, hairdressers, supermarket cashiers etc. Such women would have been less impacted and demeaned by a vote dictated by the “headship”theology.
Adventists with the same disdain for secular universities, have created our own schools of higher education
As a result, our women members are accountants, anesthesiologists, attorneys, architects etc
What a slap in the face this is for our professional educated ladies!
While some might “grin and bear it” or “put on a brave face”,this is surely a demeaning, discouraging event for the bulk of our members (women make up the majority of our adherants).
My recommendation to these high earners, is to allocate their funds donated to the church so that NO funds are designated to help the GC or divisions/union conferences that do not give women equal rights.
If all our educated professional and working women were to do this, it would send a message LOUD and CLEAR, to those espousing “headship” a doctrine not
original to our church, but “imported” from Calvinist roots in the 1980’s.
Will the next step be an adoption of Calvinism, Sunday worship, and other…
My Charity will go to feed, clothe and educate the living; and within Religion to spread the word. Discrimination is to remove focus from such and redirect to individual ideologies or classes. Maybe you can get a job, register with the IRS as a for profit and promote your individual ideologies?
In alternate, we are unable to donate or allocate Federal Funding to “women’s” only shelters or organizations to help those with needs. Funding is always diverted back into non-charitable purposes or pursuing individual goals; but the need always continues, without the intended help being provided. We need to operate within wisdom; not motive. Charity does not discriminate and we no claim or stake nor do we own the Charity provided by others.
Iam Suprised by the fear of my fellow that “how will Pr Ted will lead the church of 59/41 votes forward” God is the one leading the church neither any of us, Whether in a smaller number or in the large one,the church will go forward..Spiritual decision should never ever be the ground for political reasons for our thinking, God lead his church on the time of great apostasy, you think he can’t now, friends don’t be fooled,he will lead the church with or without our support.
AMEN!!!. Wanda. God is leading this church and it will endure through the power of the Holy Spirit. God loves this church. Nothing can make it fall. The Shaking is going on. People will give up and leave. Let us pray that we stay faithful and allow God’s Word and His Spirit to lead us. We can’t let emotions lead us or we are going the wrong path.
I look at the life of Christ and I see a life of submission to His heavenly Father. I pray that all in the church, both men and women, will follow His example.
If we face reality, this is hardly a submission to Christ and His principles as He confronted the administers of His day about how they treated people. Religious freedom needs to find its place in the church. No group should be in control of what another does for the good of their people in spreading the Gospel. Luther did not submit to an organization.
How could you have delegates with little youth or female representation and call it anything other than politically and culturally rigged? No, we plan to stand on principle and not placidly go along with the crowd. Our example did not.
We know that in the years to come, this will change. So are you saying God is only in control now and not later?
Am humbled by th stand Ps Ted Wilson… The debate for Yes or No is a clear indication that Ted & His Team have a great task ahead of them,.. & I therefore request all faithful adventist to pray for unity & power from God above, the Creator to strengthen the leadership & allow the scripture to be standard of our faith… Further may the GC ensure that such topics of no biblical authority be not discussed & subject to a vote, because the votes simply shows that some ministers are questioning the authority of scriptures… & as such how will they be entrusted leading the church… Its not the issue of finaces or who speaks its about mission & sciptures…
God bless Adventists
I don’t know how you can say this when great study went into it by scholars of the seminary who found no biblical support against women in ministry. It was also shown, ordination was not biblical. Who is ignoring the Bible?
Come on EM, ordination is biblical. It is the word that may have pagan roots but it doesnt make the practice of laying on of hands as part of commissioning for ministry unbiblical. Dont be deceived by those scholars who claimed such.
“Laying of hands” is biblical. But there is no biblical support for the separation of the church into clergy and laïty. Laying of hands was in recognition of a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit; not a pre-requisite to paid denominational employment or a position in the ecclesiastical hierarchy.
That is a concept I wish far more in the church would discover. We are ALL called to be ministers of the Gospel according to the gifts that God has placed in each of us.
EM,
Your claim that the scholars of the seminary “found no biblical support against women in ministry” has no merit. These people are moving with the crowd, and their beliefs are determined by the majority, not the Bible.
Look, for instance at Richard Davidson. He claims in a paper he wrote that Eve was superior to Adam and his supervisor because she was created the last, and therefore she was the “crown” of God’s creation – the most “advanced” creature God produced.
Now, it that pure nonsense or what?
Now Eduard, surely you have noticed that women are much better looking than men.
The problem scholars like Davidson is he has decided to forget Ephesians 5, 1 Timothy 2 & 3. So yes while “pure nonsense” is not the word I would use, I would say it is clearly unbiblical. The things that men revert to, to prove the what cannot be proven makes my wary as I am seeing Scholarship avoiding biblical evidence to ensure feminism wins.
Jim, Could you explain how ordaining women is “missionally imperative”? You might begin by describing the mission of the SDA church.
The vote is a blessing of Gods working as well as the inspiration of scripture. As female I can say scripture does not support ordination of women. It is clear. There should be no debate as this is not about culture or fair rights for women. Its about ob edience and submission by both men and women to what scripture which we view as authority and as sound for docterine by the workings of the holy spirit. We cannot make this a political issue it is a spiritual issue and relates to our willingness to trust the holy spirit work of conviction in scripture. This is not about what a woman or man wants or how they feel but about what does the bible teach on this subject. Yes we need unity however we will never have true unity in the church until Christ comes. As there will always be those who like lucifer seek to lift themselves and their agenda up above the place their creator provided for them.
I really hope you have the ability to view this from other viewpoints–that’s what unity is about. Are you saying all the study and prayer that went into this and showed thereis no biblical opposition to women in ministry is wrong? The seminary studied it thoroughly and years ago our scholars said there is nothing in the Bible against it. Why do you think they were all wrong? Ordination isn’t even biblical but shown to be a Roman Catholic tradition. The whole ritual and its resulting power, manipulation, and dominance turns the Bible principle on its head. Christ stood for fairness, equality and was against the worldly power plays of the Pharisees who lorded it over the people.
It is clearly cultural and political and a significant number of voters believed this. It will change as younger people and more women are included in the vote. Then will some still say God is in control, or is He in control now but not then? I desire with all my heart to see Christ come, but doubt it can happen when we are limited in our outreach and example to the western secular world. He will not come until all have heard the Gospel.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”… (Jesus) said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in my name receives me.”
Old time SDA’S and JW have a common link: an abhorrence and mistrust of secular, “worldly” godless, universities.
COME AGAIN ROBIN. YOUR ANALYSES IN NOTHING BUT PERSONAL AND EMOTIONAL CONFUSION YOU WANT TO COMPARE JW TO SDA CHRUCH? SHAME ON YOU. WE HAVE WOMEN IN RESPONSIBLE POSITION IN THE CHURCH ELLA SIMON UNTIL RECENTLY WAS AT THE GC. WHY DO YOU WANT TO BELITTLE THOSE WHO DID VOTE. NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE CHURCH REST YOUR PERSONAL FEELIGN ON THE SHELVES
Trying to talk down to Robin because she is a woman? I can see right through you.
A wise leader would have endeavoured to bring the church to a point of consensus regarding women in service during the past few years, preparatory to the 2015 General Conference session, rather than leading to a divisive vote.
Give Wilson and crew credit for trying to build consensus via the cascaded TOSCs. Trouble is that the “theologicrats” could not come to any consensus.
At that point the big boys at the GC could either throw-in the towel or kick the can to the Session.
And if you studied the final TOSC report and how many participants supported each position, and then compared this with the Session debateand vote tally (I have) the TOSC was actually fairly representative of the GC constituency.
Clarification of the foregoing conclusion – I was referring to their theological positions.
The actual question or to a vote was how best to make the problem go away. Conformity won-or over diversity by a 59:41 margin. I suspect that many who voted for conformity yesterday were surprised by how many voted for diversity. This is after all a club where you get-along by going-along. Which was the main point of Wilson’s concluding remarks.
Jim,
What you state is an offensive distortion of the vote on the WO issue. To claim that all those who voted against WO were just seeking “conformity” and that all these delegates had no biblical reasons for their decision to vote is the kind of demeaning arrogance that makes the church members outside NAD to dislike the Americans.
Have you ever thought that the delegates who voted against the WO were in fact looking at the larger picture – at the way in which allowing “diversity” would affect the church theology, unity, and mission?
The “diversity” the NAD activists was that diversity that places culture over the Bible and proposes emotion as the ruling factor in all doctrinal decisions. That is not biblical faith, but a cultural faith that is not anyone’s time.
What are you going to do when other activists (The “SDA Kinship cannot wait) will demand that in the name of “diversity” the church should accept homosexuality as an alternative and as “biblical” lifestyle? Go with the “diverse” group?
Yes!
In the current debates about WO many are failing to differentiate between doctrine and policies of the church. Are conservatives now saying they are one and the same? In the AT Facebook page Terry Shelton got the “ball” rolling with this quote. Terry should also study pages 258 and 260, read the whole chapter while you are at it. As a church we have changed, re-studied, re-visited, revised many policies, many times. To use this quote as a badge for unity is futile.
Terry Shelton “But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.” {9T 260.1}
What do we say to our sisters who are ordained or are preparing and hoping to be ordained?
This quote will now be the rallying cry for the extreme right wind of conservatives as they seek to undo all the work towards inclusiveness that has been done in our churches. In the name of “church unity” “uniformity”, and “church progress”.
A text, or quote, without it’s context is a pretext.
The headline, “Majority Says ‘No’ to Women as Adventist Ministers” is misleading and inaccurate. There were women ministers before the vote and they will remain after the vote. The 1990 “commissioned” minister policy has not changed. There are already over 3,200 women ministers, and they will not disappear. The NAD reaffirmed yesterday that it will continue to commission women ministers under the 1990 action. The headline should be changed to “Majority Says ‘No’ to Letting Divisions Decide to Ordain Women as Ministers.” Please correct it, as the mistaken headline will cause confusion both in and out of the church.
Today Ted Wilson directed Division presidents to issue a statement clarifying that:
1. The vote did not disallow women from serving as commissioned church pastors.
2. It did not disallow women to serve as ordained elders in the local church.
3. It did not disallow the ordination of deaconesses.
http://www.nadAdventist.org/article/1073742996/news/current-newspoints/7-10-15-clarification-on-the-roles-ofwomen-in-ministry
Ted Wilson also announced that any interpretations contrary to the above, are incorrect. He asked delegates not to imagine any impact or meanings that were never stated in the motion. I agree that the headline of this article needs to be clarified.
The revised / reissued statement of the NAD is even clearer: http://www.nadAdventist.org/article/1073743001/news/current-newspoints/july-10-2015-reissued-statement-of-clarification-on-the-roles-of-women-in-ministry
What if we, followers of Christ, all prayed a prayer similar to this: “Dear God. A lot of the time, my fallen humanity gets the better of me. Thank you for being gracious and merciful towards me, a sinner. I do the things I shouldn’t and don’t do the things I should. No matter which conclusion I have drawn, opinion I hold, or side I am on, let me be gracious and believe the best in others. Allow me to really listen to those who share an opposing view and be slow to conclude that those who believe differently have impure or evil motives. Let me care for my opposing brothers and sisters in my comments. Please remind me every so often that though I may speak with the tongues of Angels, have all knowledge, and be fully “correct”, if I don’t show love for my Christian brother who holds a different perspective, then to him and the onlooking world, I sound like discordant noise. Let me value and hold fast to the truth but let me not forget that truth without love, kindness, mercy, and compassion, is toxic. Today, let me do something kind for your child with whom I disagree and thereby experience a more meaningful and contemporary foot-washing. Amen
Evangelism will continue to be a joke, the official church has nothing to sell, except to itself.
Official Adventism swishes along merrily in orbit in its soundproof capsule oblivious to the fact no one outside cares what it has to say, or if it has men or women ministers, or if it has ministers at all. Neither do the “outsiders” notice or care what the official position is on Adam and Eve. And the effect on the inside passengers is much ado about nothing since it continues the attachment to the failed end time mandate from the past which blocks any meaningful vision for the future.
It appears unofficial Adventism (the young, millennials, and others) have flown the coop, the capsule, and are winging their own way unencumbered by doctrinal detritus toward an energetic Adventism that appears to more closely represent the teachings of Christ.
For the official church, what happens in San Antonio will stay in San Antonio.
Or have a couple thousand bureaucrats who think they can micro manage 18 million religious adherents, flown the coop?
Could be, but it appears they are effectively bureaucrats without portfolio. Micro might apply, but management, in the end, probably not possible! Herding 18 million cats is a metaphor that comes to mind.
Ordination is simply a symbol categorizing clergy from all the members. But while in Roman Catholicism clergy are identified by robes and red hats signifying their status, Adventists, being “simple folk, address their clergy as “Elder….”
Because it is a special honor and title to set apart clergy from members, only males can qualify for such distinction.
Reminiscent of boys building tree houses and placing signs: “No girls admitted” it must remain an exclusive boys club or it will lose all its significance once females are admitted. “Everyone” knows that only the male have the correct genitalia to qualify; the Bible says so.
Silly– elder isn’t a gender term, but a term of age and respect. Ask the American Indians.
Jeremiah,
That is absolute nonsense. You probably know only English (and not so well, I assume), and have no idea how the Biblical Greek functions. In the ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and many modern languages such as the European Romance Languages and German, for example, all parts of speech are inflected and indicate their case and gender.
The American Indians are some of the most illiterate and ignorant people in this nation. To solicit their “professional” opinions in linguistic matters would be like asking your grandmother to explain to you in technical detail how your smartphone was built and works.
Would you trust her with that?
Eduard: Is there any group of people you don’t disparage &/or call names? Attitude says a lot about a person. The way one uses words can be powerful persuaders – either way.
And the words one uses says volumes about the person using them. But, then again, this observation is coming from a woman…….
Take a break from the weighty, somber discussion and enjoy some Ordination Humor. https://ordinationHumor.wordpress.com/why-not/
Dear, mis-guided ones. I strongly recommend prayerfully reading Numbers 16 and the corresponding chapter in Patriarch and Prophets, as it is an almost exact typology of this WO issue today. There were 250 who wanted to be ordained priests, who were not of the order of Aaron. Led into rebellion by Korah, these dear folks perished in a purging fire from God, but not after He swallowed up the families Korah, Nadab and Abihu, the leaders of the rebellion. There arguments are almost word-for-word what we are hearing today.
It would be easy to agree with you if Paul had not made explicit statements in Hebrews about the old priestly system no longer being in effect. Talk about rebellion is a distraction, usually from those who have not discovered the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Such talk is dangerous because it draws people into arguing and thus being destructive instead of letting God empower and use them to grow the church.
“MANY ARE LEAVING THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY CAN’T ACCEPT OUR BELIEF ON WOMEN ORDINATION.”
If we will change our belief just to prevent them to leave the church, then let’s just pattern our beliefs on those popular charismatic groups, and gain millions of members.
Ryan,
That is pure nonsense. Look around at the churches where women have been employed as “pastors.” Are those churches gaining “millions of members”? No, on the contrary! Most of these churches have shrunk, have split, or have moved to a new “equalitarian” stage, “gay ordination.”
“But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered.” {3T 492.1}
Is this still how the General Conference is to be understood by faithful Adventists – God’s highest authority on earth? Or is it now private judgment that is God’s highest authority?
I am not a scholar so I don’t know the answer. If the GC is God’s final authority, however, then I am not sure how Adventists have any option but to accept the decision, since it is from the Lord.
Patrick
God’s people have a long history of fighting His leading.
Remember when Sister White was “sent” to Australia even though she said it was not God’s will?
Let this be the final time to ask for a ordain woman pastor. Remember the children of Israel when they asked for a King so they will be like the other nation. When God said no they insisted to have a King, and finally God gave them a King and see what the result? We will repeat the same thing if we keep on making discussion and debating and making votes for ordination of woman.
Joshua, back then God spoke directly to the people through prophets. There is absolutely no comparison between women’s ordination and designating a ruler. In fact, if you really want to get Biblical, Adventism should be a movement and not an organized religion…which is why I don’t understand why people couldn’t accept different Conferences deciding for themselves whether women should serve a Pastoral role in the Church. Also, when is God’s will determined by a majority vote? In fact, the very idea that the “General Conference is God’s highest authority on earth” like Patrick G said, is a very dangerous concept in my opinion.
Jeff said: “In fact, the very idea that the “General Conference is God’s highest authority on earth” like Patrick G said, is a very dangerous concept in my opinion.”
No kidding. I never realized we had a pope. Was there a puff of white smoke over the Alamodome after Pope Ted was reelected?
The GC’s decisions are not infallible. The operational / business / policy decisions of the GC (like the WO vote) certainly are not infallible.
For those of you who keep using the name “Ellen G. White” as an excuse in support of WO, please keep in mind that Mrs. White was used as a vessel and she was not God’s first choice. Study church history, read the KJV bible and pray to God.
Aren’t clergy also similarly “called” as vessels for a special purpose? If not, why does 10% of my income go to support such people?
Are you saying that God choosing two men first and then choosing a woman could not have been His way of telling us that after 2000 years of male leadership it was time to allow women to help with the Harvest?
Not only was she called by God, she stated that God Himself ordained her. And she made many statements in favor of women in ministry, while never saying anything against their ordination. http://EqualOrdination.com/egw-on-women-ministers/
Let’s remember what the vote was about: “Is it acceptable for division executive committees, as they may deem it appropriate in their territories, to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry?”
The answer was no but the question is – so what? The GC still allows for the “commissioning” of women ministers, including the rite of laying on of hands, which biblically is a rite indistinguishable from “ordination”. So all the GC has done is forbid the use of a word. So I say again – so what? The GC also continues to allow the “ordination” of women elders.
The solution for pro-WO Unions seems pretty clear to me, and a practice some parts of the SDA world are already doing. Start “commissioning” all new clergy – both male and female.
Furthermore, start calling the ceremony in English “ordinance for the appointment to ministry by the laying on of hands”. Bannish the word “ordination” from Church literature and everyday use. Never use the word “ordination” again in your Union.
As I believe some male clergy are already currently “commissioned” rather than “ordained” it seems a viable way forward. Then all new ministers would be on an equal footing, both male and female, and the GC decision would also be respected.
As being “ordained” gives few privileges under the Manual (other than say consecrating a new church) only a President needs “ordaining”. Thus, women would only be excluded from Presidency. All other ministers…
Forgive them Lord for they know “not” what they do. There are no statements biblically that says women can not be Pastors of GOD’S
children. You misogynist grey beards would rather split the SDA church than grant the calling by the Holy Spirit of devoted women
to share the gospel message. Eduard, when you shout arrogance, look in the mirror. You
will be judged for your lack of Christ love for your fellows, seeking to buildup God’s church, while you are content to say, “get out”, if you don’t agree with “ME”.
Earl,
“The calling by the Holy Spirit of devoted women to share the gospel message” is an interesting claim, but there is no biblical basis for it. Nowhere in the Bible, OT or NT, women functioned as priests, apostles, or elders. There is no biblical precedent for such a situation, and that is all that matters.
You can talk as much as you want about it, but the facts are missing. To call the men who base their convictions on the Bible mysoginist shows that you are a narrow-minded individual.
What would do you call the women who oppose the WO based on biblical arguments?
If the church delegates in GC session voted NO on the issue, I guess all those delegates were arrogant “misogynists,” who showed their lack of Christ love for their fellows, and not SDA believers who expressed their theological convictions through their votes, right?
Rebellion postponed for 40 years the Israelite journey from Egypt to Palestine. Rebellion will destroy this church, because the Gospel has been forgotten and all resources and efforts are directed towards “social justice” now. Instead of planning what would be the best ways to spread the Good News, this whole session has been centered on power and control.
By the way, what are the results of “calling” women to be “pastors”? POLARIZATION, DISSENSION, DIVISION, HATE, OPEN CONFLICT among the SDA church members. Are these the result of God’s Spirit working among the church members?
If the results of having women as pastors are polarization, dissension, division, hate and open conflict as you claim, how is it that women pastors have revived dying congregations and in many places are both planting new churches and leading growing churches? A prime example is the largest SDA church in the world (in Vietnam) having been established by a woman who is still the head pastor.
The fruits from the ministry or women pastors refutes your claim.
William,
How about some argument about how the church membership numbers “exploded” in the NAD after women became “pastors” here?
I believe that this was the promise of the WO proponents.
Paul called Junia an Apostle in Romans 16:7. He even said that she had been in Christ before Paul himself.
Jonathan,
You are not much of a reader, are you? The “Junia” argument has no merit. It is as good as the argument that David and Jonathan were homosexual lovers.
Were they?
Monte,
With all due respect, the very fact that you use the term “clergy” in your message to me in which you chastise me for showing “disrespect for the clergy” indicates that you make an unbiblical distinction between the “common” members and the “elected” members of the church. This is a catholic doctrine which you cannot support with the Bible, and creates a rift in the church that makes some the “clergy” act as “superior” to the “common” members. Is this your present and true ecclesiology? If it is, then you need to correct it immediately and reestablish it on a biblical basis.
As for the notion that “hundreds of pastors” that you interviewed have “miraculous” stories to tell about their lives, what does this prove? That they were “called” to be “clergy”?
I have never been a pastor, and neither did I want to be one, but I have thousands of “miraculous” stories to tell you about the way God has led me all my life through experiences that defy even the miraculous. And yet, “the church” has never found a place for me in which I could exercise my spiritual gifts. I know more Adventist theology than any pastor I have ever met in the churches I attended, and I have more evidence that God has led me than most pastors I have met, and yet they are the “clergy” and I am a “no-count” member.
Is this how things should work in God’s church?
I sympathize with your frustration over not finding a place in the church to minister as you feel God has been leading you. I’ve been there, done that and got a drawer-full of t-shirts to that effect. Still, I would ask the question of if what you see as God’s calling for you to minister is really that, or if it is just your idea of how you think you should be working for God. I ask that because one of the most painful spiritual experiences of my life was God stripping-away the traditional concepts of “ministry” and how I thought He wanted me working for Him in the church. Only when those were gone was He able to show me how He really wanted me working.
One more thing. How much theology you know doesn’t matter to God. What matters to Him is how connected you are to Him and how willing you are to be used by Him AS HE WANTS. I have a degree in theology that I now consider worth very little because of how much God had to take away from me and how much the Holy Spirit has had to teach me. How much you know and how skilled you are at this or that is all rubbish to God because what matters is how empowered you are by the Holy Spirit. If you’re not seeing opportunities to minister using what you see as your spiritual gifts, that’s pretty strong evidence you are neither gifted or empowered the way you think you are and you’ve been deceived.
It was only after I gave-up on all the power and knowledge that I thought was in me and realized that I could only be effective for God by living completely in His power that God began giving me opportunities to minister that were effective. The greatest working of God’s power that I have ever witnessed came not when God’s people were teaching others about Him, but when they were serving others. Stop trying to teach, start serving and watch what God does.
From what I read in the Acts, all members of the church had spiritual gifts and exercised them in an active way every day in their lives. There was no false distinction between members called “clergy, ” which was “the clerical order; the body of men set apart by ordination for religious service in the Christian church; opposed to laity,” as the Oxford English Dictionary defines, and the “common” or the “lay” members – the UNGIFTED. All members had an equal value and complementary roles in the advancement of the Gospel.
We have drifted from that Divine arrangement to an ecclesiastical organization that separates the “gifted” from the “ungifted” and the “called” from the “uncalled.” The “common” members have become “spectators” while the “clergy” have become the “Bible interpreters” and the congregation “rulers.”
Here is your church!
You wrestle to parse phrases and terms, but to what result? You have partial knowledge that has not resulted in the empowered ministry that you desire. It is not for you to know or evaluate if another has been called, but to know how God is calling YOU and to what purpose you have been called so that you can produce fruit for the Kingdom of God. If you are not growing the Kingdom, then you have not responded to your calling and by arguing about what you think is or is not the calling of another may be preventing many from finding the Kingdom.
Let us all hang on to our dear faith because the Dragon is wroth with the woman(church)that keeps the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The church is loosing her peculiarity- – -it is under attack by the Devil.
Everything God says and does the Devil wants changed. He changed God’s laws, He altered many of His deeds. The Sabbath worship was changed to Sunday, the baptism was changed from immersion to sprinkling, He ordained only His men disciples, and now He has made a big issue about it. He wants it changed too. He wants the women ordained!
Oh God help us!
When God ordained His disciples, There were women also in the ministry serving in the church but Jesus, in His Godly state of mind, ordained only the men. Now, the Devil insists women should be ordained too and there are many in the church working hard to push his agenda. We don’t need to change God’s ways!
We all need to pray and fast to overcome it through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus NEVER ordained the disciples, He empowered them with the Holy Spirit.
William,
You are missing something very important here. Yes, indeed, “Jesus never ordained the disciples,” but He CALLED them to work with Him for the proclamation of the Gospel. That was a DIVINE CALLING, and there was no doubt about it.
That calling made all the difference. The called disciples were the Lord’s inner group, the leaders – the men to whom the NT church was entrusted.
God calls ALL to become believers and empowers ALL who choose to believe.
Above you described how you believed you were called to minister, but expressed frustration over having no opportunity to use that ministry in the church. Since your “calling” is not being recognized by others it should be obvious to you that you have not been called in that way and you do not know from experience what it is to be called. So, why do you cast doubt on another person’s calling?
William,
You are misreading me. I did not claim anything about a personal “calling” that is not recognized in the church and that affects me on a personal level. I am not concerned about this matter. My observations were theological. I commented on and rejected the false notion that the church should be divided into “clergy” and “lay members.”
As for the notion that I “have not been called in that way” and I do not “know from experience what it is to be called” and therefore I should not deny the personal “feelings” or “experience” of those whomen who claim that they have been called by God to do a man’s work, my answer is that I don’t need to “experience” such things in order to know whether they are right or wrong.
No matter what one thinks or feels, when those thoughts and feelings contradict the clear biblical teachings and the biblical facts, I can be fully confident that such thoughts and feelings are wrong.
Do you need to commit adultery in order to be convinced that adulterous thoughts and actions are sinful?
Jesus chose no Gentiles either. He didn’t even choose Hellenised Jews.
Neither did he start a “church.”
Bugs,
But He did. His followers were the church. After his ascension all his followers were called Christians, and the church was called The Christian Church, as in the OT those who descended from Jacob were called the Jewish church.
I recently did a lesson on Jesus and women, finding support for women in ministry. You need to remember that just because the 4 Gospels primarily focuses on the 12 disciples, doesn’t mean that there literally were only 12 chosen to lead the early church. You need to remember that the Bible was written in a male dominated society, so obviously women will take a backseat in the minds of the authors.
In Luke 8:1-3 it speaks of Jesus traveling with women disciples…fast forward to Luke 24:1-12, women were the first to witness and tell of Jesus’s resurrection (aka the “gospel” or “good news”), while it was the “chosen” 12 men who doubted.
Romans 16:1-7 also speaks of and lists women apostles, who played an active role in shaping the early Christian Church. While it does not explicitly say it, it is safe to assume that couples like Priscilla and Aquila who held church services in their home, took an equal role in leading out (what we would call a “Pastoral Ministry” today).
Whether or not you believe that Ellen G White was a prophet sent from God, the fact that the Adventist Church claims her to be the founder/leader of the Church makes the denial of WO even more strange to me. I encourage you to read more on the subject as I find that there is more than enough evidence in the Bible and Adventist history to support WO…making the recent vote more political than religious.
Where’s the evidence from Jesus that he planned a “church,” or any organization, for that matter, or even wanted such a thing? There isn’t any. Eduard, what you say is true, but only after his death. It was a template laid on his existence after he was gone. And the time frame of that post-resurrection template was decades long so there was plenty of time to develop a narrative to fit an outcome. His followers were in a state of shock upon his death seeing no apparent meaning in it or his life. The proclamation of his resurrection created a review and reinterpretation from which the current identity of Christianity grew.
Bugs, Jesus did say in Matthew 16:18 that “upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
He wasn’t specific about what that would look like, but it sounded like he had a plan.
Patrick
Nice try, Patrick. “Sounding like a plan” and having one is a mighty leap across a mighty chasm. Many of Christ’s statements were bounded by hyperbole, riddles, and mystery.
If your application is correct, it appears to me, so is the Catholic interpretation of it as the authority and foundation for their church. Catholicism would then be the true church. I’m not sure what Christ had in mind when he spoke these words, but I doubt if this is what he had in mind.
The Netherlands Union has publicly announced that it will ordain women in its conference. That is their privilege and right under the rules of the church that Unions, not divisions or the G.C. can determine who should be ordained. Expect others to follow as some have already been ordained in several unions.
Nothing can stop and idea whose time has come.
I know what you mean. Gay marriage in all fifty states. Does not mean its Gods will.
Elaine,
Should we be surprised? The Netherlands and Sweden are probably the most depraved countries in Europe. Perversion is rampart there. Women’s ordination will work only if the SDA members accept women as “pastors.” I know that this situation will not affect me because I will never attend or support any churches that have women as elders or pastors. I hope that other members will act like me and will reject and abandon the rebellious churches.
What is going to happen, then?
I suppose what will happen if angry hate filled people choose to stay away from these sorts of churches then they will be left with loving accepting and welcoming folks who will be a great vessel to open the service to reach those in need of a safe place to worship.
Mark,
So, you call the SDA church members who believe that the Bible teaches against WO “angry hate filled people.” Well, by your own statement, about 60% of the delegates who voted against WO at the GC session this year are “angry hate filled people.”
How should we describe the 40% of the delegates who voted for WO?
“tender love filled people”?
It must be a fact then, from your perspective, that at the present time most SDA members are angry haters.
What an admirable description of our church!
Are you implying that by reflecting the culture in which it exists, that the church is also reflecting and even adopting the evils present in that culture? That is a grossly egotistical view that is screaming “Your culture is wrong because it isn’t my culture!”
The church (and even ancient Judaism) has always adapted to the culture wherever it was so that it could prevent the Gospel in ways that were meaningful to that society. Jesus met the people where they were. Likewise, the church is meeting people where they are.
Typo! “prevent” should have been “present”
Have you not considered that people will begin giving to other organizations that do not discriminate? The NAD has been the largest financial supporter of Adventism in other countries since the church began.
Many have already stated they cannot support a church that discriminates by supporting it with their tithes and offerings. It’s not wise to bite the hands that have been feeding you all these years. People have every right to their opinions as well as their giving.
People become disgruntled of just complain for a variety of reasons and the volume with which some declare their dissonance often makes it appear that they are in far greater number than is real. So I’m no more concerned about people leaving the church over WO than any other reason.
Elaine,
This is a refrain that comes again and again: “It is not wise to bite the hands that have been feeding you all these years.”
The answer is that in the USA, as far as I know, it is a criminal offense to bribe citizens in order to get them to vote in your favor.
I suspect that the church has no immunity under this legislation, besides the fact that such an act is the main characteristic of the most corrupt politicians.
To some extent, the vote may have “wakened a sleeping giant.” As I suspect is the case with many other SDA’s busy with their family, professional careers and their local church, I’ve not had a lot of time to keep up with the controversy but became keenly aware of the issues during the last few months which included watching the live proceedings on Wednesday. By way of background, I am a product of both conservative self-supporting and denominational schools and consider myself to be a fairly conservative SDA. My observations are as follows. It was totally inappropriate for Ted Wilson, as the sitting president of the GC, to take a position in the matter. While no one would expect him to abandon his personal views on any subject, he should have expressly maintained a position of neutrality in such a polarizing dispute, particularly when his stance is out of harmony with the overwhelming majority of the biblical scholars at our denomination’s flagship seminary. Isn’t Mr. Wilson supposed to be the president of all SDA’s? Furthermore,for him to unequivocally state that the issue is now decided for all time demonstrates extreme close-mindedness. Finally, I would note that it was painfully obvious to any objective observer of Wednesday’s proceedings that the outcome of the vote was largely determined by world-wide cultural influences where women traditionally serve subservient roles in society. Notwithstanding the disappointment, we must keep the faith. Change will come.
Ted,
To claim that those who voted NO on the WO issue did it simply based on cultural reasons is very simplistic and provincial. It is in tune with the idea that the Americans are the only ones who get it right all the time – typical arrogant and condescending Hollywood movie script coming from a nation of individuals who cannot read and write and who cannot handle the abbacus.
Eduard, you probably have a point about the abacus (a word incidentally which you have misspelled notwithstanding your aspersions about Americans being unable to “read and write”)as I can’t say that I have ever held one in my hand. However, I am very thankful to God for modern numerical and calculating systems which allow those in the NAD to earn a living and financially support God’s church, including paying to bring the delegates to GC from those countries where the abacus is apparently still being used.
Ted,
I hope that the African and South American Adventist are reading these posts. If I understand you correctly, the points you are making in your post are:
1. That the SDA church depends on the dollars of the rich American Adventists for its existence, and not on God.
2. That the rich and arrogant American SDAs do not return the tithes to the church because it is their Christian duty.
3. That the rich and arrogant American SDAs are in fact attempting to buy the votes of the poor and and the needy SDAS in the “third world countries.”
4. That because the expnses of the delegates to the GC sessions are paid with American dollars those delegates have the obligation to vote as the American wish them to vote.
If you are an US citizen you must be aware of the consequences that follow when a candidate for public office attempts to buy votes from the American citizens.
Question: Are the American Adventists attempting to bribe the GC delegates in order to get them to vote in favor of the American pet projects?
One can only wonder what happened to you as a child that made you so terrified of coming under the “authority” of another woman. I guess EGW was already too much to handle.
Your personal theology suggest you never read any of the several GC commissions that concluded Bible does not disallow WO.
David,
You make me laugh. Terrified of women? My convictions are not based on fear, but on the Bible. As for the literature on WO, I have read more than you have ever read or will ever read in your entire life.
Ted,
The current President just like any other is accountable to God and responsible for His work. He is also a Priest/Father in his home, charged to be responsible for it by God. The man must take a clear position on everything and live all to make their choice.
This culture arguement baffles me. Yes there are people even now who abuse others in the name of culture. However in this instance, are you saying Christ, whilst on this planet allowed and supported this abuse by selecting only men as His disciples? Or He chose that route, so that He would not alienet men and those women in support of male headship and vice versa?
Bible culture is to shape our behaviour always. God bless
Scobs, thanks for taking the time to respond to my comment. It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree over the role of Mr. Wilson as I do not view him as my “Priest.” He is a mortal man just like all of us and he is capable of being wrong on issues. As for why Christ only selected men as His disciples, there were probably many reasons, not the least of which would be that had he selected females this would have been a huge distraction and likely insurmountable impediment to His mission at that time. This also explains the several references in the New Testament regarding servants submitting to their masters in all circumstances as opposed to just condemning the practice of slavery. Obviously slavery was evil in God’s eyes back then just as it would be today. As SDA’s, we readily accept Ellen White’s role as counselor, preacher, mentor and teacher (roles all fulfilled by pastor’s), yet, some in the church argue that women today cannot be ordained to fulfill those roles. That, my brother, is an inconsistent position which cannot be logically reconciled, notwithstanding the feeble attempts to do so.
“Bible culture is to shape our lives always.” Music and food are important elements of culture. Do you eat the food of Bible times, cooked as they cooked it? Do you play the music of Bible times?
It is interesting to see the large group of delegate
kneeling in prayer that God will agree with what
they have already decided to do!
God will not change His mind to fit the mistaken vote of July 8.
If God has a “mind” that is changeable he must then be a lot like us, only bigger, Superguy! Yes, we have created that one, him, weak and malleable in our image! Perhaps there is another “God” busy with the universe unaffected by our puny brainstorms. The only tracks left by him might be love, no brainstorm, just experience.
I read corporate policy daily for my job. This vote has always been a policy question. We can argue theology and create hard feelings all day but policy since 1901 says…..Unions have the power of ordination.
The question at hand was an administrative and intellectual dodge by GC, regardless of where you stand on the theology. As a policy issue, the question should have been…what church entity has the power to make decisions regarding ordination? Congregations, Conferences, Unions, Divisions or GC. If the real issue had been clarified in Committee, prior to appearing on the agenda, the real ramifications of a vote would be clear. This issue of organizational authority encompasses much more than WO. I guarantee that issue would not have come to the floor for vote.
Comments prior to the vote should have been ruled out of order if they did not address the question at hand. After ruling several comments from either quarter out of order, delegates would have been clear about the policy issue they were voting instead of an emotionally charged vote that didn’t achieve anything.
Right, Trish. The vote simply left the status quo in place. Women ministers will still be commissioned per the General Conference action of 1990; and the unions retained the authority to decide on women’s ordination. The following article was originally published the day before the vote. It also contains important information that will help to make sense of what the vote means now and how the unions can move forward. http://EqualOrdination.com/actual-significance/
I’ll paraphrase the old Jerry Lee Lewis song, “there’s sure a lot of bloviating going on.” We need to quit acting like room full two year olds. I hope everyone puts aside their egos and return to the purpose of the church. Our purpose, to spread the good news that there is salvation in Jesus Christ.
I sort of agree with you, Scott. If God really does love cheerful giving and sending monies up the church ladder to entities that have codified discrimination would put a damper on one’s level of cheerfulness and generosity, the aims of church-goers could be met in a variety of other ways. Arguing about what is right and how Bible texts should be properly interpreted has been futile thus far. Why not call a cease-fire on the back-and-forth bickering,do what we have to do to follow our consciences,and focus on how members of various persuasions could work together on some common goals.
Hi! Thanx to those who are against women’s ordination. As adventist let us not do as the world do. We are defferent.There is no bible text that teaches to do so. Jesus did not apoint any single woman as an apostle when He appoints those twelve. Why us now? Adam was created first to be the heard of family so as to every men. The church of God should be pastored by men not women. It is sin to ordain women as pastors in church. This is a temptetion which must eradicate from God’s Church right now.
The “world” drives cars. Do you copy it at your peril? Might that not be a “sin?”
Eduardo C Hanganou, I have no clue who you are and know nothing personally about you other than reading your comments. My reaction to your opinions is that you are a rather hateful person. Sadly, you seem to fit the profile of the 59% leadership of my church. This leaves me very sad and disappointed.
Orlene,
I find it quite offensive that you have decided what kind of person I am from the few comments I have posted under the article. I assume that you consider all those people who disagree with you hateful.
Do you have a college education? If you do, then you must have taken an introductory English Language course called “Argument” (which I teach).In this course, students argue for opposing points of view. The idea is that the differences of opinion between people are good and healthy and stimulate thinking. In the course, students also agree to disagree. You must have missed that course, or you never went to college.
There is also the First Amendment it the US Constitution that guarantees freedom of speech even about matters concerning which people are in strong disagreement. Are you aware of this amendment?
Last, but not least, you have distorted in an unthinkable way my first and last names which indicates to me that you care little about others and a lot about yourself. I feel insulted and demeaned by your carelesness.
Her misspelling was unfortunate. But I have a feeling that her writing “Eduardo C Hanganou” instead of “Eduard C Hanganu” was a simple typographical error, rather than an “insulting,” “demeaning,” “unthinkable distortion.” Lighten up, Eduard.
Ionioala,
It may be so, but there is too much error in that spelling to be ignored or excused. It must be the g factor that caused it.
Whether it was the g factor or merely a clumsy typist, it is nice to see that you have a sense of humor, “Eduardo.”
Yours truly,
“Ionioala”
reading all these comments is sad for what are suppose to be christian adults. this topic was brought to a vote, voted on, and a result was achieved. yet we have nothing more than grade school bickering back and forth. what it really comes down to is, “i won’t be happy till i get my way” mentality.
Joel,
You couldn’t have said it better!
What is more important: that a person be baptized or that they be baptized by a women?
While a pastor does have certain powers, the bottom line is women want to get paid for what they do. If they were in it for God/Christ, why would any woman care? Are their treasures not stored in heaven? and is that not the only thing that matters?
Ekimi,
What is more important: that a person be baptized or that they (sic!) be baptized by a homosexual “pastor”?
The answer, in your judgment, I assume, must be “be baptized.”
Would that be biblical, in both cases? That is the question. The Bible is clear about this. There is no situation in the Bible in which a woman or a homosexual baptized someone.
Yes in both cases. The person baptising doesn’t have magical powers! The holiness of the baptiser is irrelevant – only the conviction of the baptisee matters.
Even the Roman Catholics believe this, as Augstine of Hippo argued with the ancient Donatists – and they uphold a sacramental theology. Adventists who believe in the priesthood of all believers should know better.
There is no biblical passage that says only certain people can baptise others or perform certain rites or ordinances. That again is Catholic tradition from sacramental theology. It isn’t biblical. Again, even Catholics with their error put us to shame because they technically realise a person can be baptised without a priest.
Who is proposing having homosexual pastors? Such an wild suggestion is just a distraction away from dealing with the reality that scripture empowers all believers to be ministers of God’s redeeming power and that no different or greater authority is given to clergy. I don’t care if a minister’s past includes being proud, hateful, a thief, or sexually immoral so long as they have been redeemed and are empowered by the Holy Spirit!
The story is told of a church board that was meeting to review applications to be the church’s new head pastor. The board chairman read what he said was the resume of one applicant who told of having been stoned, beaten, run out-of-town, having to do manual labor to survive, being rejected by church leaders, threatened with death on many occasions, a prisoner for his faith and other things. Towns where he had preached had erupted into riots. Perhaps worse of all, he’d persecuted believers and had taken pride in seeing them thrown into prison and killed. The board members universally rejected him until one person dared to inquire about the applicant’s name and the board chairman replied, “The Apostle Paul.”
William,
You are living in an ignorant past. It has happened in other churches, already. The sequence is:
1. Female ordination,
2. Full membership for homosexuals, and
3. Homosexual ordination.
Do you know why pastor Kevin DeYoung and his entire congregation left their denomination?
Of course you don’t!
Mr. Hanganu, my comments above are rude and inappropriate. I give you my apologies.
So, Steve,
If “the holiness of the baptizer is irrelevant,” should the SDA church ordain homosexuals as “pastors”? I assume that your answer would be a decided YES.
Eduard, you claim to teach Argument in college. You should be able to recognize a straw man argument, a red herring, and the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi.
Ionela,
Have I digressed? Both WO and homosexual ordination proponents make the same basic argument, the need for “social equality,” a position that is in contradiction with true biblical morality and equality.
To repeat myself, the WO ordination and homosexual ordination proponents start and converge at the same point – disregard of the Bible.
As you see, I have reduced the cinclusion of their arguments to on point: Does the Bible approve or disprove of their position? The answer to this rhetorical question is NO!
Please, review Aristotle’s view on ignoratio elenchi.
Eduard, you say: “I have reduced the conclusion of their arguments to one point.” Now you have fallen prey to the fallacy of conflation: treating two unrelated concepts as one. Even the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has warned that “the two issues are not related to each other and should be kept separate.” They should not be conflated. The BRI also explained that the “wrong reasons used by some should not prevent us to do the right thing for right reasons.” http://TinyUrl.com/BRI-conflation
Ionela,
You dissappoint me.You talk about BRI as the infallible Bible interpreter and truth holder. Is this what they are? I believe that you are using an argument from authority to make your point. Am I correct? And who at BRI stated such nonsense? Do you have a name? The title of a document?
There is ample evidence that the “female ordination” and the “homosexual ordination” are directly connected through the same thread: “social justice.” That is not conflation, but pattern recognition. The same argument pattern emerges between these seemingly disparate issues.Compare their arguments and you will see the parallels.
The most important matter, though, and the root of all evil is the notion that the Bible is an outdated book based on an anachronistic culture and cannot be trusted as the Word of God.
See Caleb Rosado’s piece in which he claims that what the GC delegates voted came from their culture and not from their theological convictions.
Eduard, I did not say or imply that the BRI is infallible. Now you are falling into the fallacy of misquoting or a straw man argument. The BRI paper is available at the site already provided:
http://TinyUrl.com/BRI-conflation
A big mistake was made in San Antoinio. Woman should be ordained. The Adventist church would not exist if it wasn’t for a woman. 56% of the members of the SDA church are women. They should be represented in the leadership of the church. This issue has not been settled. It is not close to being resolved.
dear brethren are you sure that GC did mistake? so what was the purpose of voting? let as agree with such decision! the issue is not what percent of women in the church! Let God lead his church!
It amazes me that a whole denomination can be turned upside down over such a non issue. Why are they [GC] not discussing things like: can EGW pass God’s “test of a prophet”. i.e. Nothing they say can not be the truth. My paraphrase. Is it time for the “cornfield theory” [ investigative judgement ] to go? Why are Americans leaving the SDA church in droves? This age of technology gives access to the young people to real sources of everything from false visions to why current copies of SDA literature have been purged of all the crazy stuff.
Look at the congregations of today. If you take away all the folks from third world countries, what is left? Look at what happened to places like the NE San. and AUC. Address things that count. The “TRUTH” just plain ain’t the truth. It can be fixed. Over half the Adventists that I know don’t believe what we were taught at SLA. Why continue what everyone knows is false but no one will say it. That’s why so many of us left.
Scrolling through these comments makes one weep for our church body. All this squabbling amongst ourselves; where is the Spirit of Christ in all this? I see demonstrated in this comment section another perverse, self seeking mindset that has no place among believers. May God have mercy on us! We are like the disciples argiung about who is the greatest before Christ’s death. We are like the children on Israel, standing on the border of Canaan so focused on ourselves that we can’t achieve the generous mission our Lord gave to us. God please forgive us! They know not what they are doing. May we Laodicean people wake up and receive the eye salve, gold, and white garments Christ has for us! May the voice of Elijah bring the children back to the scriptural truths of their fathers. May God have mercy on us and heal us of any pervasive sinful attitudes and may we be filled with the mind/Spirit of His Beloved Son Jesus our Lord.
Malinda,
HAND DOWN, your comment is the best in this entire thread- and I read every last one of them.
The topic of Women’s Ordination will only ACCELERATE the sifting and The SHAKING that is already occurring.
Jesus Christ is coming soon. Before He comes, a major CRISIS that will overwhelm the world in a “flood” will lead to the National Sunday Law is just around the corner. We are on the VERGE of the Promised Land- and like physical Israel, Spiritual Israel is distracted from its purpose and mission- the preaching of the Three Angels’ Messages to a dying world.
Based on many of the comments on thread, however, how can we properly preach the Three Angels’ Messages when there’s so much internal dissension? And how can we admonish others to enter into this “ark” before the coming of the worldwide “flood” when so many even on this thread DOUBT- and even openly REJECT- the foundations of our faith?
MAY GOD HELP US TO HOLD FAST UNTIL HE COMES!!!!!
“In a special sense Seventh-day Adventists have been set in the world as watchmen and light bearers. To them has been entrusted the last warning for a perishing world. On them is shining wonderful light from the word of God. They have been given a work of the most solemn import—the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels’ messages. There is no other work of so great importance. They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention.”–TESTIMONIES for the CHURCH, volume 9, p. 19
You must all (or at least the great majority) that the church is not lead by God’s Holy Spirit if we are not willing to listen to the “vote.” What is the point of voting? If we are not going to listen, unless, we get what we want. Sad.
Praise GOD!!! God is the head of His church! Let’s stand united please brothers and sisters; and focus on the mission of the church! Jesus is coming !!
Even so Lord Jesus come.
Papua New Guinea, South Pacific Division
I agree with Pastor Raymond Hartwell, president of the Pennsylvania Conference mentioning that Ellen white wrote that God ordained her, and the text in Joel. When that text talks about sons and daughters isn’t it talking about women? Please quote specific texts from the Bible against women’s ordination and I would look at them. Tell me what is the difference between women being Bible workers, elders, etc. and pastors, or are we becoming too hypocritically male oriented? why don’t we quote the text that says ‘let the woman keep silent in church’? There are some people that only a woman can reach. I personally think that if we are to fullfil the gospel command ‘Go ye into all the world’ we have to include women.