Don’t Pray to be Safe, Pray to be Brave
By Jack Hoehn, May 18, 2016: Does God really have everything in His control? From where you lost your keys to who had a stroke last week? What if God’s omniscience means God knows whatever can be known, not whatever choices you and everyone else will make? What if God’s omnipotence means He is all powerful to respond to what happens, but not that He is controlling what happens? Do we enhance or diminish our view of God when we wish Him to be responsible for the details of life and history? Can we be safe?
God in Control?
Isaiah 46:8-10, NIV
Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, “My purpose will stand and
I will do all that I please.”
“It’s all in God’s plan.” “No matter what happens, God is in control.” God is working out His will, even though I don’t understand it.” “I wonder what God is up to now.”
People I love find great assurance in their understanding of the sovereignty of God. Because God knows the end of history, they assume He controls the means to that end. And some are sure that if God has chosen them, nothing that happens outside to them, and nothing that happens inside of them can ever take them away from their salvation and assurance of eternal life.
They also assume that God knows all the events of the future, as well as we can know the history of the past. God’s omniscience (all-knowing) means to them more than that God knows all that can be known about the present and the past; it may mean to them that God knows what cannot be known, your choices and my choices in the future. So to the all-knowing God of their supposition, everything is determined in the mind of God, and our choices are already known to Him. They balance “free will” with “all-knowing” and assure us that both are true. I am sure both are true, but likely not in a way requiring the suspension of logic or the meaning of words.
There is another way of acknowledging the sovereignty of God, His omniscience, His omnipotence and love, that does not require making up words trying to combine impossibilities.
God Knows the End
To say that God knows the end of all things is to recognize that love will win, and evil will perish, but that does not require God to have control of the way that the end comes.
To know with absolute assurance who will win the war does not require the winner to know before the last battle exactly how each battle will happen on the way to the inevitable victory. How each battle will go depends on the enemy’s choices, attacks, and strategy. The winning general may know well his opponent’s strengths and weaknesses and past history, and will have responses ready for every contingency. The victory is never in question, with infinite resources available to God, but the course of the battle depends on the free will of those involved.
All Things Work Together for Good?
Romans 8:28, NIV
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose.
The Scriptures are clear that God works for our good through all the circumstances of life. St. Paul was very clear that the bad things that had happened to him could not separate him from the love or the power of God.
But that does not require God to be in control of things, only to be responsible to help us find the best response, the loving and wise reaction to the bad things that have happened to us by chance, by randomness, or by the choice of other creatures created with freedom of will.
John Calvin, in order to emphasize the security a Christian has of salvation due to God’s grace and not our works, interpreted the “preplanned,” “predestined,” “preordained” words in the Bible to mean that since God knows the end and can foretell the future outcome of things, God has to be in charge of all the details of life and to know the unknowable, such as what I will decide to do tomorrow. His many fine followers then have struggled to explain how we can have “freedom of choice” and yet “be predestined to be saved.” I suspect for most it becomes an issue of, “I can’t explain it, but I just believe it.”
Doesn’t God Know What Will Happen?
Psalm 139:1-7, NLT
O Lord, you have examined my heart and know everything about me.
2 You know when I sit down or stand up. You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.
3 You see me when I travel and when I rest at home. You know everything I do.
4 You know what I am going to say even before I say it, Lord.
5 You go before me and follow me. You place your hand of blessing on my head.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too great for me to understand!
Yes, God knows what will happen, but that does not mean He controls what will happen. He knows Satan’s character and can predict what Satan will do. He knows my past experience and character and He can predict what I will do. He knows the weather and the plate tectonics and the paths of asteroids and comets as well as any human scientist can and a lot better. So God predicts what will happen.
He also knows what He can do no matter what happens. He knows He will resurrect his fallen saints; He knows He will create a new heaven and a new earth. He knows that Satan and those who align with him will someday be consumed.
God knows us. He knows our thoughts and what we are thinking before we say it. This is wonderful and true, but it does not require God to know what I will think tomorrow. Or what I will choose next year. Knowing all that can be known, God can surely predict that, but while he knows what we have done and are doing, He does not control what a free moral agent will do before it is done, except as an all-wise prediction.
To know the end does not mean God knows exactly when or how that end will come, which may be a disturbing thought to some. So let’s illustrate with a Bible story.
God Knows That the Israelites Will Accept Moses, but Not How
Exodus 3:16-18, NIV
Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, “The Lord, the God of your fathers —
the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said:
I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt.
17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites,
Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.”
18 “The elders of Israel will listen to you.…”
God calls Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egyptian bondage to freedom and self-determination.
God has told him, “The elders of Israel will listen to you….” Well, that should be enough. God, who knows all that can be known, and who can do all that can be done, and who works for His good ends at all times and in all circumstances, has just told him.
Moses, however, has been herding sheep for 40 years. He knows he is out of touch and feels ill prepared for the task, so he asks God for some reassurance.
OK, God, they will listen to You, but how will this happen?
The answer is most instructive.
What, Not How
Exodus 4:1-9, NIV
1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you’?”
2 Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” “A staff,” he replied.
3 The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
4 Then the Lord said to him, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail.”
So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand.
5 “This,” said the Lord, “is so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers— the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”
6 Then the Lord said, “Put your hand inside your cloak.” So Moses put his hand into his cloak,
and when he took it out, the skin was leprous —it had become as white as snow.
7 “Now put it back into your cloak,” he said. So Moses put his hand back into his cloak,
and when he took it out, it was restored, like the rest of his flesh.
8Then the Lord said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign,
they may believe the second.
9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you,
take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground.
The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground.”
The God of all the earth purposes to bring the children of Israel out of bondage into freedom from slavery and freedom from sin, from ignorance to knowledge, from fear to love. And He knows Moses is His man.
He knows the Israelites need to accept Moses’ leadership for His plan to work, and He will see to it that they will accept them. This is God’s purpose and He has the resources to get it done. He knows Moses and He knows the leaders of Israel, so God knows it will happen, but when Moses asks God how it will happen, God reveals that He knows what will happen, but not exactly how. He will do whatever it takes to see that they do accept Moses, but whether the leaders of Israel will respond to plan A or to plan B or to plan C depends upon their choices.
How? I’ll turn your rod into a snake for them, and show you can handle the snake.
But if that doesn’t work, I’ll give you a severe skin rash of leukoplakia and then give you back your skin color again.
But if the first two signs don’t awe and amaze them enough, then take some water from the Nile and show them the Nile turns into blood.
God will see that they accept Moses as the divinely appointed and gifted leader. God knows they will accept him; He knows they are influenced by miracles and in awe of magic, and will use this to influence them to do what he wants.
But the Israelites are still free moral agents, and must make up their minds based on what they see and experience; so although God knows what will happen, He is open to just how it will happen.
Exodus 3:8 shows the conditionality of God’s knowledge of the future, “If they do not believe…the first sign, they may believe the second. But if they do not believe these two signs,” then here is our third plan to bring them on board to their only hope for salvation from slavery.
God, knowing the future He is planning and knowing us perfectly, does not know exactly what will happen or just how that future will be obtained. It will be done, but it may be done this way, or it may be done that way, or it may be done another way, depending on the choices of these free moral agents.
God Controls What He Does,
but Not What I Do
Freedom of choice in the creation of free moral agents is God’s choice for this universe. Love in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit willed together to make mankind in their image, after their likeness. As God the Father and God the Spirit are not material, being made in the “image of God” is not a physical description but a moral and intellectual likeness. Mankind was made able to think and to do, and to choose. So the entire Bible presents a picture of a universe where created intelligences interact with their Creator based on freedom of choice. We are, of course, not free to choose everything and anything. Many choices we have to live with were made by other agents.
I am not free to choose not to be born in Canada, or to come from German, English, Scot, and Indian heritage. I am not free to choose to have white, black, brown skin. I can’t choose to not have brown eyes. But within the limits of what is possible, I do choose many things, and those choices are not controlled by God, except as God offers me wonderful possibilities that I can choose.
I Can’t Choose Not to Be in the Great Controversy,
but I Can Choose Which Side to Be on
I can’t choose to not be subjected to others’ choices. If Hitler decides to invade Poland, I can’t choose for this not to happen, but I can choose to become a collaborator or part of the resistance. I can’t choose to not be hurt with natural disasters. Prayer doesn’t stop volcanos from erupting or rain from falling or dams from breaking. But I can choose to build better dams and dikes to control flooding, and to try to prevent environmental denigration from worsening natural disasters. I can’t escape the devil’s manipulation of life to introduce cancers and pestilences and plagues, but I can work to make vaccines and hygiene to modify those things.
We Are not Safe Because God Is in Control;
We Are Safe Because God Is with Us
We err to teach our children that we should pray so that nothing bad ever happens to us, or that if we do everything right we will be safe from wrong. For every guardian angel story there are many terrible tragedies that rip away the false assurance that believers are safe from tragedy and catastrophe. Pastor Troy Fitzgerald, a fit and able young pastor, is not safe from a stroke. Your children are not protected from autism. Your mother is not safe from automobile accidents. Your grandfather is not safe from being killed by a freak tree branch breaking and falling on him.
We live on a battlefield, and no one is safe from the results of the war of good with evil.
We cannot hide behind a fence of tithe-paying, vegan diet, and strict Bible study schedule to avoid the dangers of life on a fallen planet with both humans and angelic beings in rebellion against God’s rule, and nature subject to both chance and randomness. I believe nature also is subjected to Satanic manipulations just as it is to human interference with DNA, destruction of species, and degradation of the environment with dirt, filth, toxins, greed, selfishness, criminality, or simple neglect.
God Promises Us Trouble, but Also Promises Us Remedy and Rescue Plans
John 16:33, NIV
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace.
In this world you will have trouble.
But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
I don’t find that the Bible promises me safety or security; I find God offers me help, healing, and life after death. God offers me rules to improve my chances, and principles to lessen the dangers. He told the Israelites to put fences on their roofs for the same reason we buckle our seat belts in our cars. He suggested some things were unclean for food and recommended others. He taught simple hygiene and morality as a safeguard from plague, disease, contamination and STDs.
Jesus is not God “in control of the world”; Jesus is God “with us.” He can still the storm and may do so for us, but mostly He asks, “Why were you afraid during the storm, when I was with you?”
Thy Kingdom Has Not yet Come and
Thy Will Is Certainly Not yet Being Done
Matthew 6:10, NLT
May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done [soon] on earth,
as it is [now being done] in heaven.
Jesus didn’t tell his disciples that they were all safe now, and nothing bad would happen to them, for He told us to pray every day for God’s kingdom to come, and for God’s will to be done on earth (where it is not being done at present.) This was a plea for victory, not thanks for a state already attained.
We don’t need to pray to be safe; we need to pray to be brave, resourceful, and faithful no matter what happens to us during this battle called life. God is not in control of who will run for president of the USA or who will win; we are. God is not in control of who will run the Catholic church or the Adventist church; we are. But God will work with whomever we choose to work with for the advancement of His kingdom, and will work with us to make better choices next time! His will will be done, and His kingdom will come, but when and how really are up to the choices all His children must and do make.
FOOTNOTE: A 16th century view of God the Father as a ruling king, complete with crown and scepter. Is this view of God adequate for today? God the Father as a King, from a beautifully carved wooden altarpiece in St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Breisach, Germany along the Rhine. It was completed in 1526 by an unknown artist with initials H.L.
Image Credit: By Taxiarchos228 at the German language Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4032878
Moral beings are as free as God chooses for them to be. God Himself is inside the circle when He chooses, and outside the circle if He chooses. Outside the circle, He knows everything, past, present, and future. Inside the circle, He chooses to know only what He chooses to know.
The incarnation of Christ is classic of this reality. As a man, He only knows what He has learned and can learn as any other human being. As God, He can know everything if He chooses to know everything. On some occasions, He went outside the circle and demonstrated His divinity. But at no time did He use His divinity to deal with sin and temptation.
The enigma is not resolved by human reason and speculation. We accept it, and can’t explain it. We can explain the implications of this reality, and still not be able to explain the reality itself.
It is always error to try to play off the sovereignty of God against free will. So, man is as free as God chooses for him to be. This make God sovereign in all things. It makes man sovereign to the degree that God chooses.
And yes, God manipulates nature when He deems it advisable and uses His sovereignty to bring about the final end. God will do for us things that we ask, that He would not do if we did not ask. But it is always, “Thy will be done.” If we ask amiss, He may or may not do it. Go figure.
Bill,
You have stated this very clearly and very succinctly and very accurately.
Kudos!
Kudos indeed Bill! That was profound. Romans 11:33 and Psalm 145 come to mind.
Bill,
“It is always error to try to play off the sovereignty of God against free will. So, man is as free as God chooses for him to be. This make God sovereign in all things. It makes man sovereign to the degree that God chooses.”
I am asking permission to reproduce this exactly, verbatim, as needed when I write. I’ve never heard it put quite like that. How well said!
““It is always error to try to play off the sovereignty of God against free will. So, man is as free as God chooses for him to be. This make God sovereign in all things. It makes man sovereign to the degree that God chooses.”
I am asking permission to reproduce this exactly, verbatim, as needed when I write. I’ve never heard it put quite like that. How well said!”
Mr. Abbott, you are certainly free to publish anything you feel is helpful for others to see some aspect of truth.
I guess I didn’t think it was all that profound. Thanks for the endorsement.
Jack,
I agree with almost everything you have written.
Regarding whether of not God knows every last detail of what will happen, I prefer to think God knows but chooses not to reveal to us. But of course since God does not tell us, how can we really know the answer to this question?
I certainly agree that God does not micro-manage natural events. Rather God only steps-in where and as necessary to effect the ultimate good.
And I also believe that God has delegated an amazing amount of freedom to choose both good and evil, to sentient creatures. And that one of the consequences of Sin is to limit freedom of choice. And that one of the consequences of Atonement is to restore freedom of choice.
And I also believe that when we pray, we can invite God to intervene in matters that God has previoulsy delegated to creature control. But it is only an invitation, which God may or may not accept.
Excellent wisdom of understanding , Jack, also Bill and Jim. Just a few words of my understanding.
i concur that God knows everything that happens on Earth. His only intrusion is when we invite Him into our live’s, and or He has a specific request for a few, to assume leadership, amonst their peers, almost taking “no” for our answer, (as with Moses),stating that He will provide the tools we need for our assigned task. His memory bank is of exquisite infinite capacity. The flesh sheath is our temporary habitation, and the prime element in our individual systems is our brain, which is a computer alike God’s. But with limited data and systems. God’s Brain Computer, has been absorbing intelligence eternally, while His Creative power, from the Creation of the Cosmos, may have been on a “learning curve”. i think it was Packard, who stated that the speed of computers
doubles every 18 months, perhaps less than a year now, some 30 years later.
Scientist’s are starting to manipulate Human DNA, mixing it with animal and vegetable, to breed
variations, with the aim of improving the Human species??????? GMO seeds for food, not knowing the long term implications. But the agenda of manipulating the Human DNA, to breed a warrior class of human creature, as well as Trans-humans is fraught with dangerous actions. Continued>>>
>>>> Please don’t think this conspiracy. It is happening several locations globally. iatedrAny National Power State can’t afford not to be involved, for fear of being left behind. As, the Arms Race has filled the Earth with WMD, so the scientific experimentation continues. Could this not be construed as “As in the days of Noe, so shall it be at the time of the end”????
Dr. Hoehn,
I like your suggestion: Pray to be brave. But It is okay to pray to be safe too.
You write: “God is not in control of who will run for president of the USA or who will win; we are. God is not in control of who will run the Catholic church or the Adventist church; we are.
In Daniel we read: While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
This is something of a contradiction. The scripture says quite specifically that, the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men. According to scripture he not only knows, he ordains, whom it is that rules over us. Would you expunge Nebuchadnezzar’s story from scripture?
I am not Jack, but let me suggest that God can and does intervene in the affairs of humans, at the highest as well as at the lowest levels, but only where and when God sees fit to intervene.
God did intervene in the lives of at least two Pharaoh’s as well as Nebuchadnezzar. But that does not mean God chooses every human ruler.
The contrary notion gave rise to the long-discredited doctrine of the Divine Right of Kings.
Jim,
That’s fine. The text says what it says. It doesn’t say what you think.
I would not claim that God chose Athaliah or Herod or Pilate or Nero or Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Un.
The Bible makes it clear that there are also demonic forces at-work in the affairs of men. Not everything that happens in this world comes from God. And not every ruler comes from God.
And yet the text says what it says. You set yourself up as the greater authority. Is scripture authoritative? Maybe not for you.
So according to William Abbott, God did establish the rulerships of Athaliah and Herod and Pilate and Nero and Stalin and Hitler and Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Un?
Were all of these notorious despots really ordained by God?
hmmmm, God doesnt know what choices we will make….lol…
Jim,
I am terrified of establishing myself as the authority. That is what sinners do best. Dr. Hoehn does not submit himself to the authority of Scripture. He is a very intelligent man. He thinks great thoughts. But where’s the discipline? He imagines he as resolved some dilemma, but he is not submitting his thinking, his reasoning, to the authority of the Word of God. For God most definitely says: “I am in control of the world.” Dr. Hoehn imagines if God is not in control an explanation can be contrived for the hard question you ask. He has attempted to resolve one problem but he creates a much bigger one. As Samuel said to Saul when Saul resolved a problem with His own reasoning : “Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God”
In the end, Dr. Hoehn’s problem-solving is a species of Idolatry: Idolatry is elevating our own reason above the Word of God.
I am not equipped to answer your hard question. I am not going to contradict scripture. I believe the Word of God. I will not make it say something it doesn’t say. My reason is subordinate to His Word.
I am curious about this phrase “authority of scripture”. What does in mean? It seems there are at least two ways to interpret that phrase, hinging on how one defines “inspired” writings. View Inspiration as a word for word dictation from God, (as in “the King James is the only authorized Bible”) and “authority” takes on a wholly different meaning than if we view Inspiration as a divine influence moving people to record events as they saw them from their perspective in time and culture – and moving translators later on to interpret those writings as they attempt to share the message to new cultures in different times. The thing to notice here is that neither view denies the Authority of scripture – though one’s view of what “authority” means will be dramatically affected by their understanding of what the term Inspiration means.
Having gradually changed from the first view to the second I can attest to the huge difference it makes in ones perspective.
Ronald,
It is a fair question: What does the writer mean when he says, ‘the authority of scripture? ‘ Jesus Christ believed in the authority of scripture. He is our model. How did He understand the scriptures and their authority?
We are on the subject of the kingdom of men. The devil tempted Jesus, offering Him kingship over the kingdoms of men, if Christ would worship Satan. Jesus denounces the proposed bargain, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” quoting Torah.
Here is one reason I cannot answer Jim Hamstra’s hard questions. The devil seems to be offering the kingdoms of men to Jesus Christ. Are they the devil’s to give? The voice from heaven told Nebuchadnezzar, “..know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.” Do we have something like the conundrum of Job, where God and Satan together authorize Job’s afflictions? Scripturally speaking, I am unable to answer: “Were all of these notorious despots really ordained by God?” I cannot answer, because like the Centurion, I am a man under authority, I can only tell you what the bible says.
I am not going to contradict scripture. I’m not going to say it says something it clearly does not say. I am going to follow Jesus Christ. He believed the scripture. He never contradicted it. He lived it. He fulfilled scripture. His weltanschuuang is mine.
Living in a country where a christian is still a minority, to a certain extent being safe and secure is never a journey of life surrounded by majority of Muslims. The wall between christian and Muslim is totally invisible but for some unexplained stimulating reason Muslim are still against christian, then the hatred walls around suddenly become unhidden. There’s definitely a storm when it comes to these two imbalanced communities. But, [Christian and Muslim] somehow got along on the surface. The only time when things could get a little rowdy is when Christians require more respect from the Muslims, this is the unsafe zone that cannot be crossed. Like the quote mentioned above “We live on a battlefield, and no one is safe from the results of the war…”
But for many Christian living in a country where majority of the population is Muslim, how long can we sustain this battlefield? In the month of December or April, there must be some kind of military protection (the church must pay for this protection) to keep the Sabbath service unharmed)
2. Yes, I can’t agree more that we can’t hide around and expecting that we would have a safer life, then how can we benefit from worshiping if we must hide to worship? What’s there to enjoy when we must keep our service hidden?
3. What is the Adventist policy to protect the church from danger? Is there some kind of pathfinder-like activity to improve self-defense or anything we could do to create a safer church?
Seventh-day Adventist,
We will pray that God will make you brave and bold to proclaim His Gospel and His Kingdom. And we will pray that He will keep you safe, and deliver [you] from evil. And we will comfort you with assurances that God is in control, in times of trouble He will not abandon you, leaving you to your fate. He has chosen you:
But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
God give you courage to protect your little ones and your womenfolk. You must give your life defending them if it comes to that. Just like Jesus Christ gave His life for us. That is Adventist policy.
Oh God, remember and defend your persecuted church.
Richard Rice’s book “The Openess of God” is a very clear and well thought out view of the issues of pre-destination and free will. The book is out of print and I believe Dr Rice has expanded his original thesis to include the issues of a God of Love vs a God of Wrath in subsequent books.
I don’t know if Jack has read Rick’s book but the idea I took away from it helped me tremendously, as I lost sleep trying to reconcile how we could have a God who knows what I am going to do and pre-destination. The SDA church believes the first but not the second. God knows all there is to know. And yes He knows the final scenes of this world but I would also suggest that how that happens could certainly be predicted by God since he knows everything that is there to know, but not for sure how it happens since each person has free will to follow God or not follow God. Dr Rice uses an illustration in his book of being a parent. There is a hill in your front yard. Your two year old is so excited to see you, s/he runs towards you as fast as possible. Now as a parent, you know the odds are extremely high that there is going to be a fall with bruises and tears. Will it for sure happen?
Richard Rice’s ideas are not biblical. Here is what the prophetic voice says in Daniel: until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. I don’t want to believe anything that contradicts the scripture. This is not speaking to the particular, (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar) it is speaking to the universal, (the kingdom of men). Dr. Hoehn accuses me of not thinking. I am thinking about what the text says. It says, “He gives it to whomsoever He will.”
Dr. Hoehn is saying, God is not in control of who will be president, we are. Does that not contradict this text?
On this we agree William. God puts into place the leaders of the world, even Hitler, Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein. You can look to the Pharaoh at the time of Moses as to why He might do this because God said He put the Pharaoh in power so that He might be glorified. He allows those leaders to come into power for many reasons we cannot understand but I think one of them is to see the shear evil that those who lend themselves over to Satan can do. I, however, agree with Dr. Hoehn that as individuals we have free will and that influences how things occur in this world. This doesn’t contradict scripture because God knows the outcome of every possible choice we make and how it will influence the world around us. If anything else is true the Satan was predestined to fall before he was even created. You see this play out in the conditional prophecies given to the nation of Israel. If they had straightened out then things would have played out differently then they did but they chose differently. You see how some things are absolute by some of the other Prophecies spoken to Israel by God where He says these things will happen sometimes because He uses His influence to make it happen such as leaders but sometimes it’s just because He knows all the outcomes such as if I am going to church I can drive many different routes but ultimately I arrive at church and He would know I would be there regardless of the route taken. Sending love in Christ
Mike,
I’m reluctant to answer the question directly like you do. If you read the book of Job there is an exchange between God and Satan, in which it is impossible to not to conclude God is responsible for what happens to Job and yet Satan is obviously the active, causal agent of affliction.
Here’s the text: Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
It certainly reads like Satan can do nothing to Job unless God wills it. It even has the imagery of God putting forth His hand and touching Job’s bone and flesh. But we also know from the text that Satan is in fact the causal agent.
We don’t need answers to Jim’s and Dr. Hoehn’s hard question. We need to know what the bible says, and we need to be content with its explanation. Richard Rice sets out to answer the hard questions and he does answer them. But they aren’t biblical answers. The willfully ignorant God is not the God of Israel.
William, this fully is explained with the conditional prophecies to Israel. God says to them if you obey then I will bless you but if you stray you will bring My judgment. Why, even say that if He already knows what will happen? Again, God knows all the outcomes so He knew what would happen if they obeyed Him and He knew what would happen if they disobeyed Him. In regards to Job. God told Satan to do whatever he wanted to Job within constraints. Satan could have blinded Job instead of giving Job boils or given him all sorts of other alignments. God knew all the things Satan could do but He saw all the outcomes in the end with Job being victorious over them. Sending love in Christ.
I agree William. In her book The Origins of Satan Eileen Pagels points out that in Job Satan is presented as God’s lackey. God seems to be saying to Satan: “You can go this far, but no further.” Satan isn’t allowed to do anything that God doesn’t authorize. She states that the Old Testament Satan is only mentioned 5 times ( I do not have the interest to verify this.) It wasn’t until New Testament times that Satan is “fleshed out.” Where in the Old Testament he was merely obstructive, in the New Testament he is presented as The Prince of Darkness. He plays a leading character in the cosmic battle between good and evil.
Michael,
Satan is not behaving like a lackey in Job. He has a malignant, accusing, spirit about him. Flunky or lackey is just not his character in the story. He’s Iago, not Barney Fife.
“The bible knows nothing of the primordial fall” I don’t exactly agree with that statement but I would be hard-pressed to disprove it. I read that quote, as quoted in Steve Grabiner’s book: Revelation’s Hymns: Commentary on the Cosmic Conflict
Are we not taught how to pray?
Our FATHER which art in heaven, Hallowed be be thy name (in reverence).
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (HE knows best).
Give us our daily bread, forgive us of our sins and help us forgive others.
Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For HE is THE Almighty. Amen.
It seems we sinned for the privilege of choice, demand the privilege of choice and then complain about the results. As he commands us for our own protection, whether the rulers be good or bad; even because of our own choice.
We have a covenant with the safety and surety of HIS Word for our protection; through Abraham, all nations are blessed. Why? Genesis 18:19 “19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.”
Do we pray to be bold or are we bold because we pray? Is it HIS strength and choice or ours?
Conviction, your desire to submit to God’s will is admirable. But the responsibility and importance of freedom of choice existed far before human sin. We did not “sin for the privilege of choice” we sinned with the Divine Responsibility of choice. God values choice for his creatures more than he hates sin, for he put the whole government of Heaven at risk of choice. It was better we have rebellion and sin, than that we not have choice. Rote obedience is of no value to God, it appears, and what I find in these discussions is that we often mistake our interpretation of what we thinks God wants for what God really wants. His choice is: For you to be wise enough to choose, not for you to be passive enough to not think about it and just obey by rote. His ideal is not obedience but willing partnership with Him in doing justice, loving mercy, and of course, walking humbly with such a great and precious gift as freedom to choose. And then to live bravely in partnership with Him as we deal with the consequences of those choices.
Dr. Hoehn,
You make even God out to be an Idolater. You worship free will and the power of choice. Conviction is nearer the mark. Free will is a necessary evil, not a positive good. The infinite risk and hazard God took on Himself to rescue us from our ‘choices’. Free will is the hammer I used to drive the nails into His hands. I despise my ‘choices’. I repent my will.
He did not put the government of Heaven at risk for choice. He put Himself at risk for ἀγάπη (Agape), nothing less. He loved us while we were yet His enemies. We are not His partners in His great work. The ONLY work in the world that has ever mattered.
Have you ever bravely thought on that?
Dear William Abbott, I with you worship our Creator. I accept the kind of life He has granted us as His creation. Yes, you are so right, it is all about Love, agape love, and nothing less. It just is that without freedom Love can not exist. We are not on opposite sides of this issue. I was cheered by your appreciation of C.S. Lewis, let Jack Lewis use his wonderful gift for clarity to un-muddy this conversation: ““Why, then, did God give [creatures] free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.”
(C.S. Lewis)
Why Risk all on Freedom of Choice?:
Because Love requires freedom of choice.
Because Love requires justice, fairness, equality.
Because Love requires understanding.
Because Love persuades, and does not compel.
Because Love is about service, not about authority.
Because this is God’s way, not our way.
Because of Love, there are creatures possible to rebel and ruin.
Because of Love, there is a war that is real with much suffering.
Because of Love God does not manipulate, God reacts and responds.
Because of Love our choices do make a difference.
Because of Love we are, must, and will be involved.
Because God is Love.
Dr. Hoehn,
I know we are not on opposite sides. We are on the same team. Its all a question of how we got on the same team. Who called your name? Who chose you? I was on the other side. I was playing for the enemy.
Just like Edmund, I exercised my free will. I chose the witch’s side. I belonged to her. I hated my brother. I chose death. I said ‘no’ to Aslan and ‘yes’ to the Queen of Winter. I ate the queen’s food. I was in her power. So much for my freedom of choice.
The infinite risk and hazard Jesus Christ bore to the cross was for my ‘choices’ – He bears in His flesh forever the marks I gave Him. Only God is truly free. I am created in His image and I took my reflection of God’s freedom and I used it to glorify myself with vain imaginings. We did not heed the warning – we chose death. We said ‘no’ to God.
Don’t you see? It’s all about God choosing. He isn’t constantly revising His plans. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. When we said ‘no’. God said, ‘yes’. ‘I will you to live. I will make it possible. I will do the great work. I will make atonement for your willfulness and sin.’
God forbid I should deny free will and God forbid you should glory in it. Look at the price paid to redeem us from the resulting sin and death. Lewis was not against predestination; he was merely against its ‘darker’ manifestations. Jesus Christ has chosen me, not the other way around.
Are your statements not linear in thought?
If the Choice is made, there there is no choice.
As EVERYTHING HE came to us with nothing, because of us. Is that justice, fairness or equality?
Love requires understanding along with wisdom. To know and be able to do are mutually exclusive concepts.
Many are compelled when they have nothing else to turn to. Is that persuasion or Love?
How can you serve someone without the authority to give up everything. How can you give up everything and not have the authority in service?
We do not understand, well less have wisdom in GOD’s Way.
Because of evil and our in choices or to help; rebellion, ruin and suffering are rampant, even to war.
GOD changes us in Love as we grow. Then in a twinkling of an eye will manipulate us into that which is incorruptible.
If we are HIS, our choices no longer belong to us. They are HIS choices; that is Love.
In many cases and because of Love; we cannot be involved. We can always pray for HIM to be involved though.
Your last sentence is absolute, but well beyond our miserable understanding and without wisdom to even get us to that point in this world.
Should we rely on others for wisdom or comfort? Would HE not be a better source of wisdom in reliance and others in testimony of HIS comfort?
Comfort, I hope my thoughts are “linear” one following another logically connected to the one before it? As I try to follow through your ideas, I admit I sometimes miss your allusions, but I have no reason to deny your thoughts even if I don’t follow them too closely, so I’ll just skip to the last line.
Both you and I only have “Others” for wisdom and comfort, God the Father does not speak directly to us, but only through “Others”. So yes, in God’s wisdom, God protects us from what we could not bear, His Holiness, by speaking to us at sundry times, and in diverse manners though “Others”. I know nothing of Him except what “others” have taught me. I’m sure you can be one of the “Others” I can learn from, and I’ll try to listen as well as I can.
Jack
1 John 2:
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Luke 12:
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Forgive an old man in interpretation. The acquisition of knowledge is a cumulative of examples; parables fore say, in remembrance. Wisdom comes from HIM, granted of and by HIM only; through the Spirit. Given in anticipation of performance in expectations of HIM and others; Luke 12:48.
You can know the world and still be able to do nothing. You can know little and do much; especially within comforting others.
Are you not linear within the allusion of knowledge? Can it not become an idol? Laid up and never used; until it is too late? Are we not finite; without the infinite? On whom do we rely when no one is there to teach? We ate from the tree of knowledge; should we lie down and die there?