Seven Adventist Mythologies That Are Delaying Christ’s Second Coming
By Pastor Tom Hughes, September 6, 2016: For over a century the Seventh-day Adventist Church has proclaimed a message based on the three angels of Revelation 14. The first angel symbolizes God’s last message of warning to a world that is soon to be ending when Jesus comes again. The Adventist Church sees itself as the unique religious movement that is warning the world of impending doom, and that understands what the Book of Revelation conveys about the last days. In spite of the unique importance of this message, many Adventists (though certainly not all) have missed the significance and eternal truth of the first angel’s message.
The first angel’s message is pre-eminent because it is repeated and intensified in the third angel’s message. (See Signs of the Times, January 25, 1910) Revelation 14:6-7 states, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” These verses have an ominous tone that certainly gets one’s attention. This angel is pictured in the middle of heaven, like a satellite rotating the earth, suggesting that it comes from God and that it is visible to the entire world.
This angel is seen as carrying a message to everyone no matter where they live, in every country, culture and language. This message is proclaimed loudly to enable everyone in the entire world to hear it. It commands everyone to worship God and glorify Him. It is a “loud” message of worship! It is a message demanding that all the world worship the creator who made the “heaven, earth, sea and fountains of waters.” It symbolizes a movement that preaches the gospel and worships in all the world.
What is this movement preaching? The “everlasting gospel,” the time of judgment has come, and worship the Creator. Many Adventists understand this message and are sharing a Christ-centered, worshipful message about God’s judgment. However, not an insignificant number are preaching a false message because however well-intentioned they may be, they have missed the key elements of the first angel. This should not be taken as an indictment of the church, but rather as a challenge to those preaching a version of Adventism that is not supported in the 28 Fundamentals of our faith. A vocal and aggressive minority that often speaks loudest in our media and publications.
What are the Adventist mythologies that are keeping us from understanding the message of the first angel? When the Secret Service is teaching its agents how to spot a counterfeit bill, they spend hundreds of hours studying the real bills and almost no time studying the counterfeit. Let’s study the truths of God’s word that are the antithesis of these seven mythologies of Adventism.
The first mythology that has done terrible harm to the Adventist Movement is the heresy of perfectionism.
When asked the question, “Are we saved by faith AND works?” Adventists say yes far too often. They often have a Roman Catholic understanding of the gospel. Large segments of Adventists believe that works done by the Holy Spirit are meritorious. They say, “It’s not my works; it’s the Spirit’s works.” This is the same understanding Roman Catholics have concerning their works’ counting toward their salvation. Martin Luther and Ellen White taught we are sinful, yet holy. “Though guilty, he is looked upon as innocent. Christ fulfilled every requirement demanded by justice.” (White, The Youth’s Instructor, April 25, 1901. Compare to Luther in B. A. Gerrish, Grace and Reason: A Study of the Theology of Luther, p. 135.)
Too many of us are “Achievers” rather than “Receivers.” Even though we devoted an entire Sabbath School Quarterly to the gospel in Galatians, ever since 1888 the church has struggled with the concept that “by no works of the law shall any man be saved.” In a church where no Adventist has even kept a single Sabbath perfectly, we proclaim to the world that if they don’t they will be lost. Sadly, perfectionism and legalism is alive and well among us.
The second mythology is Harvest Theology.
This teaching of many leading Adventists, including editors of prestigious magazines and publications for over 50 years, is a teaching first espoused by M. L. Andreasen, an Adventist minister who had his credentials taken away. Many accepted the teaching and failed to see that it is a totally false concept that leads straight to an erroneous view of righteousness by faith. The basic premise is that before Jesus can come again, at least some Adventists have to reach a state of sinless perfection by character development, so that by the time Jesus steps out of the sanctuary in heaven, they are so perfect that they can stand before God without a mediator and live a sinless, perfect life until Jesus gets to Earth. The world will only be “harvested” when the church has achieved this state of perfection. It also teaches that Adventists must “vindicate the character of God.” (Only Jesus truly vindicates God’s character.) Ellen White declares, “No one is perfect but Jesus.” (White, That I May Know Him, p. 136)
The third mythology is a Catholic understanding of worship and reverence.
In the Roman Catholic Church reverence is defined as “silence” before God. Only the priests and higher officials of the church are allowed to speak. Many Adventists have accepted this strict interpretation of the word reverence. They believe that you should not speak out in church services. You are not allowed to praise God in a loud voice, not allowed to say “Amen” or “Praise the Lord.” You’re not allowed to raise your hands in the sanctuary. You’re not allowed to applaud when your brother or sister sings or plays an instrument that gives glory to God. You’re not allowed to shake hands or hug your fellow worshipper in the pew beside you. They have forgotten about the Jesus teaching that “It’s lawful to do good on the Sabbath day.” The Bible teaches a reverence that can be exuberant and even loud on occasion. Yet some embrace a formal, Christless, joyless, silent religion, where if you raise your hands, you’d better be asking a question! No wonder many of our children find our services so dull and uninspiring. God is pleased by and inhabits the praise of His kingdom!
The fourth mythology is the concept of Puritan Separatism, or an “Adventist Separatist” mentality.
Many of the early founders of the Adventist Movement were Puritan separatists. They had a very strict view of the world, often including things in their system of beliefs that were “extra-biblical.” In the area of dress they believed that wearing buttons on your clothes was vain, wedding rings and jewelry were “worldly” and that the church was a fortress to protect you from the world, rather than a hospital for sinners and a rescue station for the lost. We had to wear extreme fashions that demonstrated our “separation from the world.” We were not allowed to be joyful and exuberant in our worship, music and praise. We had to be extreme in our diet and lifestyle. Even though Ellen White was a shouting Methodist who repeatedly stated that we should “Shout the devil back” and be exuberant in our worship and praise of God, and not make dress a test, the “Adventist Separatists” contradict all that and more. While they give lip service to her as a prophetess, they go far beyond anything she ever said concerning conservative ideology. If Adventism were to continue to embrace this theology, they would soon become as irrelevant and culturally illiterate as the “Adventist Separatists” are today.
The fifth mythology is the false theology of a condemnatory judgment.
Even though the Bible repeatedly teaches that Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved, many teach that the primary purpose of the judgment is to expose those who are still imperfect because they have failed to achieve the necessary character perfection through “Holy Spirit Perfectionism.” This message of sinless perfectionism has driven off whole generations of Adventist youth, who are smart enough to realize that neither they nor their parents could ever achieve the necessary “righteousness.” For decades we have emphasized what we must do for God far more than what God has done for us. The judgment is all about what Jesus did, not about what we accomplish in our own works!
The sixth mythology is the doctrine of standing perfect without a mediator during the time of trouble.
Some among us preach the time of trouble so much that we become “troublemakers.” They teach that one day Jesus will throw down the golden censer and that when He does, all those remaining will have to live a perfect life without a mediator or they won’t be saved. Absolute sinless perfection must be “achieved” and they must live a sinless life, because if they do sin after Jesus steps out of the Most Holy Place, they will be lost. This heresy has been taught in our churches and Sabbath Schools for over fifty years. Many become so fearful of having to stand without a mediator they have lost their minds, left the church, or become perfectionists who are constantly striving to become so “holy” that they won’t need Christ anymore when He steps out of the Most Holy Place. They atomize sin and fail to see their sinful nature will remain until Jesus comes. (White, Signs of the Times, March 23, 1888; also Selected Messages, Volume 3, p. 355) Confusing sanctification and glorification, they misinterpret both. Every sin we will ever commit was fully paid for on Calvary 2,000 years ago. Jesus declares upon ending His priestly ministry, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still” (Revelation 22:11). It’s impossible to be lost even though we are still sinful, with a sinful nature until Jesus comes. (White, The Youth’s Instructor, April 25, 1901)
The seventh way some have missed the first angel’s message is we have failed to share a judgment message that declares the saints “not guilty” and delivers them from sin and all its consequences.
We have missed the good news of the judgment and made it something to be feared and dreaded rather than embraced and celebrated. The gospel gives us our right to worship the creator, and our freedom from the consequences of our sins, declaring us “not guilty” and making us joint heirs with Christ. How have we failed? Because we preach the second coming of Jesus as a moment of condemnation, a judgment that will condemn those who insufficiently “achieved” a state of perfection that will “guarantee” their salvation. Those who “keep the wrong day” will be punished. Those who “still eat meat” will fail to make it through the time of trouble. This dark message of condemnation offers zero hope. No way out except getting on the treadmill of earning our own salvation. By not preaching the “hour of his judgment has come” as an hour to “receive” salvation as a free gift rather than a lifetime of futile “achieving,” we rob the gospel of its power and the judgment of its hope. Could it be that a church emphasizing the “Revelation of Hope” has missed the very message it claims to be preaching? These messages are often very hard on Roman Catholicism and talk about the fact that the majority of the Christian community is “keeping the wrong day” and eating “unclean foods” and that we have to “glorify God in our bodies” by preaching the health message! We sadly leave out the fact that righteousness by works – even keeping the correct day, all the while missing the fact that it’s God that makes us holy, not our Sabbath keeping – can’t save us. That “righteousness by mouth” can’t save us. That our only perfection, our only law keeping, our only Sabbath keeping, our only way of glorifying God is found in the righteousness of Jesus Christ!
The true first angel’s message is the foundation and heart of the three angels’ messages. Without a firm understanding of this message, the movement becomes a Christless, legalistic, perfectionistic counterfeit that hurts its children and fails in its mission. Where is the hope? Where is the joy? Where is the power? Where is the freedom? Where is the eternal life? Where indeed! What have we missed? All the above, and much more! Let’s start learning, embracing and proclaiming the most powerful, hope-filled, joyful message of freedom and deliverance ever given! Let’s get it right this time! Let’s do it!
Tom Hughes is a district pastor in the Ohio Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and an evangelist throughout the denomination’s North American Division, as well as a key leader in outreach to motorcyclists around the world. He addresses these mythologies in a new book entitled The First Angel’s Message Revealed.
“Tom Hughes is a district pastor in the Ohio Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and an evangelist throughout the denomination’s North American Division, as well as a key leader in outreach to motorcyclists around the world. He addresses these mythologies in a new book entitled The First Angel’s Message Revealed.”
Tom Hughes is a deluded pastor that should never be endorsed by the SDA church. He is typical of those who wrest the gospel from its biblical perspective and places his own convoluted ideas and interpretations of the bible to suit his deluded ideas.
But the SDA church will never discipline rebellion again. The church is too deep in apostasy to correct the incessant and ongoing errors that have been tolerated and endorsed since the theology of “Pluralism” was accepted after the Dr. Ford rebellion.
Adventism was never a mature Christian community and after the death of EGW it began the spiral downward more and more into total apostasy. EGW and the bible have been abandon for spiritual delusions of grandeur by those who followed Ford into his deluded state of mind.
The “shaking” will soon intensify as world events will demand a pure truth by the believers as the only defense against the final delusion. Namely, Universalism, that is the fruit of the modern application of the false gospel application. And the SDA church will save no one. The bible has been abandon.
Bill,
If you’re going to be so critical, would you mind telling us how God is using you to bring people to salvation so we can have reason to believe you know what you’re talking about?
“If you’re going to be so critical, would you mind telling us how God is using you to bring people to salvation…..”
People are “brought to salvation” by pure unadulterated truth. Not half baked ideas and theology that attacks bible truth to advance some convoluted ministry.
To attack the motive of “fear” as being bogus to a true believing Christian is satanic in its final results. There is surely an “unholy fear” that is not biblical, just as there is an “unholy assurance” that genders presumption.
All we hear today is this “unholy assurance” that genders rebellion as is so evident in the incessant and ongoing attack on God’s law and God’s authority. And the “fruit” of this false assurance is demonstrated in a church that professes to be called of God to “warn the wicked” of coming judgment and prepare for the second coming.
So, every “Tom, Dick, and Harry” attacks the historic message and claims to have “higher enlightenment” than EGW and the bible.
So the bible presents the truth of law and gospel that maintains a healthy fear of God coupled with an adequate assurance of forgiveness in the name of Jesus.
If people perceived a false view of the law that gendered legalism, you sure will not cure the sin problem with a false view of the gospel to counteract this faulty view of the law with some faulty view of grace.
EGW taught neither. Nor does the bible. But “bible butchers” do.
Bill,
You wrote, “People are “brought to salvation” by pure unadulterated truth”
How Gnostic of you to say so.
Now, can you really explain the gospel? After all, the church is filled with deluded people like Tom and we could use your help to learn the “truth.” But for some reason Bill, I can’t help but think that this book was written for people like you in mind.
Bill, Who made you God?
“Bill, Who made you God?”
Meaning what???????
“Bill, Who made you God?”
Meaning what???????
Bill, if you didn’t understand LeRoy’s question, how able were you actually to understand the article above in the first place? Do you realize that you may be criticizing something that is still completely foreign to your understanding?
George, if you didn’t understand Bill’s question, how able were you actually to understand the article above in the first place? Do you realize that you may be criticizing something that is still completely foreign to your understanding?
The question asked; “What are you doing to advance the coming of Jesus Christ”? I appreciate many of you comments. I’m far from where I want to be in my growing relationship with Christ, but I’m progressing as able to. I’ve started what I hope will develop into a ‘request for more information’ 1/4 page two-sided handout on card stock. That is one thing I’m doing and passing to next door neighbors and then handing out as I meet people each day. A health tip on one side, and words spoken by Jesus on the other side.
And this question we need to ask of ourselves. I see much error in many of the comments. Most striking was the comment opposed to moving out of the cities. Cities will become concentration camps and reading the news, the moves are already in progress.
So we must be honest with ourselves. Do we resent the ‘Old Ways & Paths’ because we would need to give up our materialistic Christian life-styles? May God be with each one of us in this late hour. And let truth rain down from the heavens above feeding us manna we are in so dire need of– Now!
Tom,
Bravo! You’ve hit the proverbial “nail” on the head with a sledge-hammer blow.
I’ll give you two more myths that are just as effective at disabling Adventists from doing the work of Jesus.
Myth Eight: that we have to wait until some indefinite date in the future to receive the empowerment of the Holy Spirit so we can do great things for God that draw people into salvation. Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit more than two years before Calvary and they immediately went out and began doing miracles. God wants to empower each of us to minister with that same power today, long before the imagined “latter rain.”
Myth Nine: that we have to move out of the cities and live in the country. I was reminded of this yesterday when my ministry team was replacing weather-rotted exterior window frames for a widow in our church. When her son-in-law saw my carpentry skills, he began telling me about the “cabin” they were building in the country so they can get out of the cities and evangelize by occasionally visiting the cities. When I asked him to tell me about the effectiveness of what he was currently doing for God, he couldn’t list a thing. He was thinking he had to do something dramatic with his family to be prepared for “the time of trouble” before he could do anything effective for God where he was.
I could list more but I’m running out of space.
“I could list more but I’m running out of space.”
I am sure you could list a hundred more attacks on the truth with a little time and effort. And maybe some would affirm you with “bravo” to give you full assurance that you are “highly enlightened” above EGW.
Bill,
Apparently Tom Hughes hit several of your “hot” buttons. Thanks for clarifying that you are solidly in the group that is preventing the church from growing.
More enlightened than Ellen White? Take a chill pill, Bill, because you’re making some pretty wild statements and your ability to twist things is on full display. I’m just watching God working and enjoying the blessing of seeing Him use me to grow the church instead of driving people out of it.
I’d like to hear more on what you think on myth 8. I definitely resonate with the idea of being faithful now and yearning to be used by God at the present. I guess I have never equated or heard that the latter rain as an excuse to not be active in ministry in the present, as you espouse some are doing. You might be in a different context where that is Ctually happening, I just haven’t heard about it.
Great illustration about your church member planning to leave the “city” while neglecting the work to be done in his sphere of influence at present.
Milo,
The basic issue in Myth 8 is that most Adventists are afraid of God, so they claim it is impossible to be empowered by the Holy Spirit before the “latter rain” at some distant date in the future. It is an illusion that allows a person to think they are faithful to God while remaining powerless and ineffective for Him.
Jesus gave His disciples the power of the Holy Spirit and sent them out to raise the dead, heal the sick, cleanse lepers and cast-out demons soon after calling them to follow Him. They came back celebrating what they had seen the power of God doing through them. That was the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same gift that is promised to all who will believe that it is real and who are willing to recognize the power God has already placed in each of us. Pentecost was just God giving them a whole lot more power after they first learned how to use a much smaller amount of His power.
Jesus told His followers to go out and bear “much fruit” for the Kingdom. We can’t do it unless we’re willing to start learning to use the power of the Holy Spirit that is promised to all who believe. How much faith does it take to believe in the Holy Spirit? The size of a mustard seed.
Please! Discover the power of the Holy Spirit and you will be on the start of an amazing adventure in ministry that touches people with His love and changes lives. That is the faith that produces good works.
Bill, based on your anti-recommendation I have just put Tom Hughs on the list to do evangelism in our area.
thank you its hard to find good evangelists
“Bill, based on your anti-recommendation I have just put Tom Hughs on the list to do evangelism in our area.
thank you its hard to find good evangelists”
In which case, Tom should be more than pleased by my comments as it gives him the highest recommendation by those who oppose EGW and the bible.
And as Dr. Taylor recommends, ” Anything of a religious or theological nature that that Mr. Sorensen makes a comment about, the opposite will probably be correct and that there is a very high probability that if one does the opposite, that will be the most appropriate and positive thing to do. Such a great idea.”
When you get Dr. Taylor’s endorsement, what more could you ask for?
Or, as Jesus asked those who opposed Him, “If I cast out devil’s by the power of Satan, by what authority do you and your children cast them out?”
The fact is, if I got massive affirmation on this forum, I would be very worried about my spirituality and my understanding of the bible.
You know what, Bill? If someone walked up to me today and forced me to choose between your theology and eternal oblivion is choose oblivion, thanks. Jus’ sayin’.
“You know what, Bill? If someone walked up to me today and forced me to choose between your theology and eternal oblivion is choose oblivion, thanks. Jus’ sayin’.”
I am not your final judge, John, but the Lord may well hear your prayers. But I’ll just assume you are deluded and ignorant of what is being taught and like Paul, you might actually see your error by God’s grace before it’s all over.
Bill I hope you will actually read Ellen G white so that you will understand what she teaches about perfection. I am so far below Illinois and my biblical understanding and have the greatest respect for her writings. On my website you can get a compilation of Ellen White’s comments on Perfection and if you read all the hundreds of Illinois and Bible quotes that I have there to help I’m sure you will not find what I’ve written so perplexing. God bless you as you continue to study his word
“Bill I hope you will actually read Ellen G white so that you will understand what she teaches about perfection.”
I am well aware of what EGW and the bible teach about perfection. We are perfect in Christ. And what did you think I believe about EGW and perfection??????
If you think I endorse the LGT group, you are mistaken. But neither do I endorse those who attack EGW, the bible and the law of God with some phony application of the gospel that undermines the law.
Thank you Darrell! God bless you brother!
What a helpful suggestion of Darrellindensmith — Anything of a religious or theological nature that that Mr. Sorensen makes a comment about, the opposite will probably be correct and that there is a very high probability that if one does the opposite, that will be the most appropriate and positive thing to do. Such a great idea.
Fortunate for Bill Sorensen that God sent us Sister White. If He did not, I don’t know what he would have done. I only hope that he trusts the Bible as much as he does Mrs White.
I must also confess that if Tom Hughes comes to the Caribbean with his interpretation of the First Angel’s Message, he will not last very long in the SDA church.
I’ve heard Andreasen blamed for a lot of things, even by one seminary professor. The perfectionistic nonsense attributed to Andresen started decades before in the writings of people like Uriah Smith. Frankly, some of this stuff can rightfully be laid at the doorstep of Sr. White. Smith “Parable of the Ten Virgins,” 1889:
“Consider the bearing of all these scriptures, and the condition of the church at this time. The saints are past probation; their sins are blotted out; they are accepted; a refreshing from the presence of the Lord is upon them; the day has dawned to them; they no longer need the light of the Scriptures to guide them; the day-star, the bright and morning star, has arisen in their hearts; and their union with Christ is so complete that they are represented as supping with him and he with them, as friend holds converse with friend at the festal board; they are enraptured with the presence of the Lord; they know his position, and understand his
very movement; they are full of Holy Ghost, as Stephen was; and as that protomartyr looked up into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55,) so this remnant church, through the divine illumination that is then upon them, behold Jesus their King when he receives from the Father honor, majesty, and power, glory, and dominion, when, amid all the pomp and splendor of the heavenly world, he is crowned Lord of lords, and King of kings”(page 19).
Andreasen, the modern Adventist’s bogeyman. Mentioning him is like invoking the Jesuits or the Illuminati. Actually, Andreasen was a serious Bible student and a great scholar in many respects. His “The Sanctuary Service” (1947) and “The Book of Hebrews,” (1948) evince that.
Andreasen wrote a lot of interesting, and some very enlightening, things in his Hebrews commentary. Chapter 10 is entitled “Complete Sanctification” but that chapter alone does not adequately convey the various aspects of his thinking on sanctification, holiness, and perfection. Andreasen’s emphasis leans mostly toward performance oriented righteousness.
The entire book can be found with a Google search downloaded free in a .pdf format
Read his teaching on Harvest Theology, and Hebrews. He is a perfectionist and teaches we have to vindicate God by developing a perfect character, or we won’t stand after the close of probation. Yet Ellen White teaches that the noblest and gentlest among men are but faint reflections of the character of Christ. MB p.49 so Andreason’s teaching that we have to develop Perfect characters or we won’t be saved after Jesus steps out of the sanctuary means that no one be saved! Is Enoch and Elijah and the hundred and forty four thousand are all faint reflections of Christ character then no one can be saved.
Tom, Contradicting Andreasen with a single EGW quote is hardly a conclusive argument on your end. Most of the LGTers today depend heavily on EGw to support their views. Many of their Biblical arguments are absurd– Tony Soprano style theology i.e., throw a plate of spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks; however, LGTers could bury you with EGW statments.
LGT is a cottage industry. Some of its proponents don’t have real jobs . They muck around, talking nonsense, depending on the Biblical illiteracy of their listeners so they can bamboozle them out of $$$.
Hansen,
Regarding Andreasen, when I preach or teach in the church I usually present Andresen as not so much “inventing” his last generation theology but rather systemizing the theology. But as for Ellen White going to his extreme, Woodrow Whidden II demonstrates in his research that she does not. See his book on Ellen White and Salvation. Also, let me direct you to the second panel discussion at the 2007 QOD Conference at Andrews University. Ok…I believe it’s the second panel discussion. 🙂
“. But as for Ellen White going to his extreme, Woodrow Whidden II demonstrates in his research that she does not. ”
It is amazing, Karl, how every false idea and misapplication of bible truth by any writer in the past is attributed to EGW. She did not endorse the errors that many advocated, much less originate them. But she gets blamed for everything.
She never taught legalism. But that doesn’t stop people like Ford and his followers from claiming she did. She was not Arian. She never would have embraced the Moral Influence Theory of Graham Maxwell. She taught the doctrine of the Trinity even though she never used this word. She endorsed the doctrine of original sin and never used this phrase either.
But people who are ignorant of EGW are equally ignorant of the bible. And in every case, without exception in the end, all who attack and abandon EGW eventually abandon the bible as well. And few seem to see the obvious reason why this is so. But it is a fact, none the less.
Bill, I don’t know that I ATTACK EGW. I don’t find her particularly authoritative for today, so in that sense, I suppose you would accuse me of having abandoned her. Nevertheless, I revere her for the prophetic role she played in the founding and early development of Adventism.
Once I was able to unchain the Bible from Ellen White, I developed a deeper appreciation for a more unfiltered Christian Bible, which seems to speak to me at a more personal level than the Bible filtered through the lenses and inspired imagination of Ellen White. That’s not her fault. It’s the fault of the Church, which needed the self-validation that came from owning an honest to goodness Biblical prophet.
But the point is that “abandoning” EGW as an arbiter and interpreter of scripture has in no way weakened the Bible’s grip on my life. And this has been the case for about 40 years. So maybe you want to rethink your assertion.
Mrs. White didn’t hold herself up to be a interpreter or arbiter of scripture, why should we?
Testimonies Not Ahead of Bible—The more we look at the promises of the Word of God, the brighter they grow. The more we practice them, the deeper will be our understanding of them. Our position and faith is in the Bible. And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible. —Manuscript 7, 1894
“Bill, I don’t know that I ATTACK EGW. I don’t find her particularly authoritative for today, so in that sense, I suppose you would accuse me of having abandoned her. Nevertheless, I revere her for the prophetic role she played in the founding and early development of Adventism.”
Nathan, this is a patronizing statement that circumvents the reality. Her focus begins with the 1844 investigative judgment and culminates with the third coming to make the earth new. And no one “goes beyond” this emphasis to a “more biblical” spirituality than she set forth.
The bible is more comprehensive than her ministry, but does not go beyond it in some negative challenge to her basic and continued ministry. That is, nothing you can learn from the bible will negate what she has clearly set forth.
William – I agree that EGW sometimes repudiated the notion that she was an authoritative arbiter and interpreter of scripture and God’s will. But she often left the impression that her readers should feel that way. And certainly the SDA Church has packaged and promoted her that way.
Bill – the fact that EGW was a diligent reader of scripture and offers creative, insightful ways to look at the Bible doesn’t make her an authoritative prophet for today. I think she was wrong about many things, and right about many more – especially God’s character and love.
I don’t mean to be condescending toward her. She was to the Adventist Church what George Washington was to the U.S.A. But I don’t study Washington’s words and leadership to guide my political philosophy and civic experience. Nor do I find EGW’s remarkably profound insights uniquely helpful to my understanding of God’s will for my life. I find writers like G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis to be of much greater contemporary spiritual relevance – though even those writers are not at my bedside to guide and infirm my daily, weekly or monthly devotional life.
“I don’t mean to be condescending toward her. She was to the Adventist Church what George Washington was to the U.S.A. ”
There may be some parallel to what you have stated. But it would be more graphic and dynamic to say “She was the the SDA movement what Moses was to the children of Israel.”
The bible affirms her ministry and she is in complete and total harmony with scripture. And this is what really “bugs” those who oppose her. They try endlessly to prove she is not in harmony with the bible. An exercise in futility.
The end result is a total loss of salvation for it is rebellion against God and His word. As an example, see how many attack the bible Sabbath on this forum with various delusions and arguments to try and undermine the obvious truth of the matter. If people are lost and deluded at last, it is by their own willful choice to be deceived.
And at some point, “God will give them up to strong delusion to believe a lie that they might be damned……..” They may think they can mock God, His word, and His chosen instrumentality and all is well. Soon the door will shut just like the door on Noah’s boat. As we see, few got on the boat. The parallel is clear and painfully applicable. God’s created children warring against their Father and His kingdom. We can scarcely imagine the pain it brings to the heart of God.
But He will never take away our choice to choose until probation closes. And that, very soon.
Karl, Whose theology was Andreasen systematizing? I’ve read Smith, Andrews, J. White, early “consensus” statements on the IJ. LGT, perfectionism, etc. are mostly corollaries of the IJ. Andreasen’s arguments are entirely different. Smith opened the LGT envelope before 1880 in his “Parable of the Ten Virgins.” Smith’s cohorts expected the IJ to last a single generation
People such Kevin Paulson, Margaret Davis Herb Douglass, Dennis Priebe, Doug Batchelor’s tribe, and others could probably go quite a few rounds with Woodrow Whidden regarding EGW’s soteriology. Woodrow may be ultimately right but the local man in the pew has not years of his life to devote to studying 50 million words to sort it out.
Bible worker Mary Walsh said it was too hard to make Adventists of people indoctrinated into other denominations; therefore, she preferred studying with people with no denominational background. Adventism is just a different brand of brainwashing detergent.
” Adventism is just a different brand of brainwashing detergent.”
Hello???? And this is simply the basic spirituality of the Atoday ministry. To oppose the false ideas of the LGT (last generation theology) is not the issue. EGW would never endorse the LGT. It is a spiritual system of legalism. But it is not the EGW doctrine or theology.
To find various flaws and false teachings in the church is very easy. But it is equally false to accuse EGW of being the author of these false doctrines. They may claim to be supported by EGW, but that is as false as their teaching.
Just like Glen claims his teaching is biblical, but it’s not. If people convolute EGW, that is nothing compared to those who convolute the bible like Glen, Dr. Ford and a host of others.
While the Jews advocated a “Christless law”, that is nothing compared to those who advocate a “lawless Christ”. People like Glen Hansen, Dr. Ford and this whole forum think they are “highly enlightened” but walk in total darkness by the delusions of the devil.
EGW never taught legalism, The Moral Influence Theory, Sanctification by faith alone, The One Project theology, the sprirituality of Atoday or Spectrum, the LGT doctrine….or any other false teaching the church embraced and allowed.
People deluded by these ministries don’t know EGW nor the bible.
Pastor Hughes,
Kindly explain for me: “In a church where no Adventist has even kept a single Sabbath perfectly…”
Do you mean that Adventist keep the
sabbath imperfectly? Or do you mean that it is impossible to keep the sabbath? Elaborate a bit for me. Thanks.
If all our righteousness is as filthy rags that includes our attempts to keep the law. It doesn’t say all our sins it says all are right actions. Egw states that even our prayers and our penitent confession of sin is unacceptable to God and that includes our Sabbath keeping, apart from the righteousness of Christ. If you think about it it is Jesus 33 years of perfect Sabbath keeping that saves you.
“If all our righteousness is as filthy rags that includes our attempts to keep the law. It doesn’t say all our sins it says all are right actions. Egw states that even our prayers and our penitent confession of sin is unacceptable to God and that includes our Sabbath keeping, apart from the righteousness of Christ. If you think about it it is Jesus 33 years of perfect Sabbath keeping that saves you.”
This is a false application of sin and its effect on obedience. While sin is mingled in all good works of the believers, the sin is removed by Jesus’ ministry in heaven and the works are pure and acceptable to God. And these works justify as the evidence that a true believer has yielded his life to God’s authority and obey God as His faithful children. Thus they obtain a fitness for heaven.
The perfect life of Christ imputed does not negate the necessity of a perfect life of obedience reflected in the believer. Sanctification is a requirement for salvation, not just a byproduct with no salvational value. We are justified by obedience to the law of God, just as James clearly states in his letter and affirmed and endorsed by EGW and the apostle Paul. “The doers of the law shall be justified.”
And “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling…..” Bible butchers in Adventism are a dime a dozen.
Bill, what you have just presented in this comment is not Seven Day Adventist theology it is Roman Catholic. James never says that we are justified by our own works. And both justification and sanctification or accomplished for us on the cross by Jesus Christ and not by our own works or efforts. You need to read Hebrews 10 verse 10 and 14 in 1st Corinthians 1 verse 30. Through is offering on the cross Christ Sanctified us we are Sanctified by faith and justified by faith. Christ is our only righteousness and our only hope. The Bible says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags that little word all really messed up your entire Theory! You say that the sun is removed from us inside of us somehow and that our work suddenly become acceptable to God. It is only because of Christ’s righteousness that our works are acceptable to God and it has nothing to do with anything we do. We don’t retain anything especially not a fitness for heaven. We receive the free gift of Christ’s righteousness. We don’t achieve it! The imputed Perfection of Christ is the only Perfection you will ever have. He will never achieve perfection in your own human flesh until Jesus comes and removes your carnal nature. Roman Catholics teach what you just said not Seventh-day Adventist. Both Martin Luther and Ellen White talk that we are sinful yet declared Holy by God. It is Roman Catholics at each we have to become perfect and holy in our flesh and Achieve sainthood. Illinois States it clearly in that I…
Ellen White teaches that *nobody is perfect but Jesus” TIMKH p.136 and that the noblest and gentlest among men are but a faint reflection of Christ’s character. MB p.49
Bill said sanctification is a requirement of salvation. Bill if you really believe that you are truly a Roman Catholic. SDA’S teach that the justification by faith is the root of the Gospel and sanctification is the fruit of the Gospel. To be more precise Hebrews 10:10 States we are both Justified and Sanctified by faith by Jesus on the cross. I would say it this way, sanctification is the result of justification by faith. You just stated clearly that your good works have salvational value and that you’re justified by works. Yet the Apostle Paul States clearly that we are justified by faith apart from The Keeping of the law Romans 3:31 and Ephesians 2 8 through 10. Your theology is distinctly Roman Catholic. The 28 fundamentals of our faith State clearly but the all-encompassing Perfection you speak of is not available today on Earth until the second coming of Christ when our carnal nature is removed. Bible but you please go to my website and read the entire document Perfection only in Christ. Read all the other way quotes in the Bible verses and it will help you to sort this out. I believe you are sincere Christian who’s really trying to understand this, and it’s not that easy to understand when people have been so confusing over the years. Go to http://www.pastortomhughes.com
Pastor Hughes raises important issues about the myths of Adventism and thus I hope that these comments are not construed as critical of his statements or viewed as expressing any negativity concerning this very helpful article.
However, one question that might be asked is what is the exact nature of anything that is suggested as “delaying Christ’s Second Coming”? The point is — Can the actions of any human or collective actions of any group of humans however constituted, really “delay” or, for that matter, accelerate the Second Coming?
There is also the larger question about what do we really mean when we talk about “the Second Coming” of Jesus? Adventism inherited its views on this from the Millerite Movement and Christian Connection. That view was a quite literal rendering of the statements about this subject in the New Testament.
We rarely ask the question: Exactly how did the early Church interpret the statements of Jesus and Paul on this topic? And how has this concept evolved throughout 2000 years of Church history? There is a statement attributed to Jesus (broadly translated): “There are a lot of things I’d like to tell you, but you are not ready yet.”
Adventist leaders continue to talk about the imminent Second Coming. That is to be expected. But is a point reached where it might be appropriate to ask: What kind of event are we expecting?
Or is it best if this subject is left alone? Let everyone hold his/her own opinion.
Excellent questions I believe but there are many things that can delay Second Coming Christ. But the most important one is God is playing is coming for the sake of saving every possible soul. Before the Flood it got to the point where every single person had made a decision and then the door was closed. The national Sunday law was about to be passed in the late eighteen hundreds and I believe because the church rejected the message of Wagner and Jones God had to send AT Jones to single-handedly defeat the national Sunday law. If we don’t get the gospel right how can we finish the work?
” If we don’t get the gospel right how can we finish the work?”
We can’t finish the work if we don’t get the gospel right. This is a fact. But neither can we finish the work if we use to gospel to butcher up the law and negate the true function of the law in its relationship to the gospel.
It is fine and well to teach people no one can merit or earn heaven by keeping the law. But it is apostasy to claim the law has no salvational value in its own right and function.
No one will be saved from the wrath of God who refuses to yield to His authority and keep His law. Obedience in its proper biblical context is salvational. And to claim the law has no function in the salvation equation is not biblical.
We are saved from the wrath of God by accepting the atonement and return to loyalty to God’s authority. And no one is saved who rejects God’s authority.
Bill,
You argue endlessly about the theology of salvation, but I’ve yet to read a word from you about your experience with being saved and what difference God’s love has made in your life. How can you expect anyone to believe the facts you claim to know if they can’t see evidence in your life showing them they actually work and make a difference?
Bill you wrote it is an apostasy to teach that the law has no salvational function. The loss function has never been to save us. The Law’s job is to condemn us and to teach us what sin is. It has no salvation in it. Our good works Merit nothing. They are the fruit of our loving relationship with Jesus and are the natural result of being connected to the Vine but they are not 4 Merritt toward our salvation. That is what Martin Luther and Ellen White teach. You also state that no one will be saved who doesn’t keep his law. I submit to you if this is true then none of us will be saved period only Jesus has perfectly kept the law of God. Only his good works will count toward anyones salvation. James says the law is like a mirror it can point out our sins but it cannot remove them. According to Romans 3 and psalm 14 there is none who doeth good no not one. Ellen White often teachers that after mn sinned, his nature became sinful and it became impossible for him to keep the law of God. You have never kept a single Sabbath holy enough for God to give you credit for it. But Christ credits you with his perfect Sabbath keeping. Read Romans 5 17 – 19. It states that by one man’s obedience many are made righteous. There is only room in that verse for Jesus there is not room for Jesus and Bill. You have to choose between your own righteousness and Jesus righteousness, you can’t have both!
” Our good works Merit nothing.”
No one said our good works merit anything. I said our works are a factor in salvation and unless you return to loyalty to God and keep His law, you are not saved.”
No one is saved without faith, repentance and obedience to the will of God. do you actually think you can ignore the will of God and still be saved just because you believe in Jesus?
What you advocate is in harmony with the apostate SDA spirituality that advocates a “lawless Christ”.
A fitness for heaven is just as much a requirement for salvation as is the title. And just because sanctified obedience is relative does not negate it as a factor in the salvation process.
Neither do people “automatically” obey the law just because they believe the gospel. Sanctification is a moral law requirement and not just some natural law fruit. An apple tree has no option but to produce apples. A Christian must consider all possibilities and then “choose” to obey. No one automatically obeys.
Even if a person kept the Sabbath one hundred years, they still have to choose to keep it every week. In fact, you plan all week to keep the Sabbath because you know if you don’t, you will be lost in rebellion against God’s authority. So your choice may “seem” automatic, but it is not.
And this is the whole issue in the Great Controversy. Satan said the angels will keep the law automatically by way of love and need no threat as a motive to obey. He is a liar with his…
Pastor Hughes is perfectly correct in his evaluation of the seven myths he has spoken to. Man can do nothing to earn his salvation. Jesus Christ 2000 years ago has done it all. All who honor Christ as God Almighty, and the innocents will traverse heavenly places. The Law is perfect converting the soul, however only one God Man on Earth could satisfy the Law. The Law condemns man to eternal death. Our efforts to
resist sin is impossible. That is the reason God came down among us and suffered the cross for every single soul on Earth, except those who grieve the Holy Spirit. This is what the “new covenant” states. Bill, your extra knowledge and works are not necessary. How knowledgeable are little children about Scripture??
Yet the Christ says “suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Bill it’s all of what Jesus God did, not anything that we do. God so loved the world that He gave.
Well said!
A person, on the scale of the universe, isn’t equal to one atom in it. (Even one human cell has an estimated one hundred trillion atoms in it). The idea that minuscule people can hold up the second coming in any sense places god in the role of the ninety pound weakling, impeded by an invisible atom. It supports my proposition of Superguy, an imaginary god as a puny handiwork of blind people.
Pity the Millerites and all Adventists. Careful analysis of the texts predicting Christ’s return reveals he didn’t propose such a scenario. Like the Millerites, he thought he would witness the end of the age, the glorious coming of David or Elijah for the purification of the world from evil. In the history of Judaism and Christianity there are countless similar apocalyptic predictions, none of which ever happened. Every age has been deemed by the predictors to be as bad as it can be. Jesus was wrong, so were the Millerites, and so is Pastor Hughes in countering silly myths (accurately enumerated) by embracing a larger one.
If the Second Coming is dependent on correct activates and/or beliefs of a segment of humanity, rest doubly assured of a never return.
Why is your god so teensy? He doesn’t bother with interventions for atoms. He never has. Based on the history of failed predictions, he never will.
Are you saying that when Jesus predicted the end would come and the second coming would happen when the gospel is preached into all the world using the word *then* Shall the end come, that he made a false prediction? By so doing doesn’t he give us a part to play in carrying that gospel into all the world? Doesn’t the Bible prophets use the word hasten to describe what can happen when we follow God Faithfully? The longer we get it wrong and preach a Roman Catholic Gospel instead of the true gospel the more we delay the finishing of God’s work. He is patient not willing for any to perish. It’s actually an encouragement to me and a reason for Endearment. God is so loving, so kind, waiting for the world to get the message so that he can finish his judgment and come rescue his people. If what you were meaning is that God has his timetable and that he will carry out his plan I am in agreement with you on that. Orange paradoxes fun?
Aren’t paradoxes fun?! Lol
Larry, in your philosophy, neither “Larry” nor “Darrel” actually exist; we are all myths!
Wow Darrel! You mean I have temporarily produced about one hundred trillion cells each containing one hundred million atoms each so you can question if I/you are myths? Are you suggesting that my load (yours, too) of hundreds of billions of cell dweller microorganisms whom I symbiotically invisibly feed and transport for our shared sustenance are fantasy? Are you suggesting that our bodies (you and me) could be ephemeral, not made of the basic building blocks of everything else in the universe, atoms, temporarily borrowed, soon to be passed on?
This may all depend on what the meaning of is, is, I mean myth is. Or even what atoms are!
Well, Darrel, you may have a basis for suspicion! I subscribe to the Last Thursdayism theory of creation as our best shot for being real! God, the Jokester or Something, created the world and all that in it is last Thursday, properly aged, historically correct, all in motion, DNA properly extrpolated, with appropriate memories, so we would think we are more than five days old! So we exist, you and me, just not as old as we thought! But Superguy didn’t do it. He was much too busy trying to calculate a way around those people blocking his advent, the Fifth-day Rascal Adventists!
Naw, just Superguy is myth.
Bugs, there’s an interesting article on the BBC website. Go to bbc.com; scroll down the Homepage to Explore the BBC; then click on “Earth”. The article is entitled “Is Our Universe Just a Simulation”. Tell me (us) if what is written there meets your thnking.
This thread runs true to the spirituality of the Atoday ministry. We really wouldn’t expect it to do otherwise.
The real sad part of all this, is the fact the SDA church as a whole runs in the same line of spiritual perceptions.
A false gospel of “absolute assurance” that is void of any fear of God is the modern spirituality of the SDA church. And Paul responds in his description of the wicked….
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Rom. 3:18
The wicked always see themselves as beyond any judgment of God and the “days of Noah” are repeated in this world as predicted and the SDA church is the modern “antichrist movement” that advocates this false doctrine.
God’s church and instrumentality always becomes His worst enemy in the end. How often does it have to be repeated before people learn the lesson?
The spirituality of Atoday is not in harmony with the bible or EGW. But it is in harmony with the modern spirituality of the SDA church. It is a strong reflection of the Dr. Ford delusion that so many embrace and many members don’t even know it.
They are in some spiritual “la la land” that the leaders have led them into far outside the bible and God’s message He gave our pioneers. They sell “unconditional election” for the church and people love to hear it. It gives them a false sense of security and they sleep on while the church degenerates lower and lower in true bible spirituality. Few will escape in the end.
Bill Sorensen, thank you! You are one of the few sources of humor on this forum! Obviously you are working hard to be funny. And you are a success. Now, some whom you obviously consider idiots misunderstand and think you are serious. But I saw through you a long time ago figuring you have a big grin on your face as you write. I await in anticipation of your posts knowing you are a jokester. So keep me guffawing! Don’t ever change!
May I second Bugs/Larry Boshell. As mentioned on another thread, I was a little dull here. I failed to get the jokes as soon as Bugs did. We all need a bit of humor every day. Mr. Sorenson is a great source of religious humor. To Mr. Sorenson: Please keep it up!
Bill,
The Biblical meaning of the word we translate as “fear” incorporates a range of relational attitudes ranging from being afraid to ultimately respectful. My experience with God’s immense love has taken me from being afraid of Him to being ultimately respectful. How can you expect anyone to learn to respect God unless they first discover the reality of how much He loves them? Where is that love in your words?
Yes, that salvation is absolutely trusting and utterly without fear because His perfect love casts out ALL fear.
Larry, you mentioned the material stuff at length, and that’s my point. If material stuff is
The Properly Basic reality, then “we” don’t really exist!
Without the atomic stuff we don’t exist. So I’m not quite sure of the legitimacy of your proposition, Darrell. If you would sell me with “wait, there is more,” I would stay tuned for your mailing address for my order.
OK, we can assume we are more than the stuff of atoms. We think. Simplicity doesn’t follow. Just how and why that is leads to a convoluted labyrinth of conceptions, opinions, propositions, proposals all unanswered and unverifiable. And, even more amazing, there is now an eclectic congregation of heretofore strangers at the local intellectual coffee shop. They are metaphysicians, cosmologists, theologians, theologicrats, philosophers, new physicists, biologists and others. They are strangers, identified by their disparate professions, some former enemies, all who now possess a common wish to know what the “Proper Basic Reality” is.
So what do you propose, Darrell, is the Proper Basic Reality? That’s rhetorical. One can observe cells, atoms, DNA, but not reality. Opinion, speculation, theory, propositions is all that is left to define the none physical realm of reality. And presuppositions are the steel wedges, I speculate, that will re-segregate the Kumbayah coffee shop seekers and send them back to their own denominations.
Maybe we are pawns in a hologram?
If physicalism is true, then consciousness
is an emergent phenomenon originating ultimately from the laws of physics, and nothing
more. As Coyne and a hundred other atheist
thinkers will tell you- “we do not have free will.”
So your rejection of ‘Superguy’ is to affirm the Myth of Larry and Darrel too.
So all our dancing to our DNA is just that!
“If physicalism is true, then consciousness is an emergent phenomenon originating ultimately from the laws of physics, and nothing more.” Darrell, one can only properly go from what can be observed to what can be speculated. The price is a decline in value.
“Physicalism,” doesn’t have to be true or false. The same with “free will.” I peg both as pigeonholed proposals. Most pigeonholes are crypts for dead birds, the intellectual ones, anyway. These, two are stiffs only because they are opinion propositions, unprovable, unverifiable. They are only useful for arguing.
Just because one is repulsed by the concept of consciousness as an emergent phenomenon doesn’t remove the fact it may be just too early to know. Or that it might be a fact. The ability to think in religious terms is the mental truncate to avoid distress where a predisposal is in threat. “Free will” is such a religio/mental device to free the deity, and oneself, from Its complicity in the guilt of human suffering.
One can make observations of complexity with conviction there must be a cause. The facts of the first part don’t necessarily support the theory of the second. Cause/effect may be a predisposition of human thought that is invalid. Dancing DNA may be all we are. If so, wishing it not to be won’t stop the music.
I accept Superguy to be as real as the invisible cat on my desk. My dog just scratched me. I ain’t no myth! She couldn’t do that to the cat. She did bark at it though?
Larry,
Why was Jesus Christ always telling everyone how important it is to believe?
Your specialty is sharing what you don’t believe about the invisible cat you call superguy.
Larry and Darrell, you birds of a feather which fly together, Hmmm. One hundred trillion cells each with one hundred billion atoms each form a unit in the Cosmos, yet each unit is not equal to a instant blip in the Cosmos search. However each of those cells and atoms perform functions, so the whole unit with all the nano microscopic parts, perform synergistically, to enable the ephemeral creature to be a living soul of
thinking, planning, seeing, hearing, feeling, urinating, ambulating, painful lump of clay. Am i missing something here?? A materialistic creature made of elements which when disassembled cease to exist, that is as a material creature, but possibly exits as an immortald spirit. A lot of alchemy going on here. This is the reason i believe in the supernatural. Some entity somewhere has the power to perform these supernatural
happenings of seemingly impossible concept to Earthbound human creatures. The complexity of this phenomenal happening from spirit, to human creature, to spirit, is supernatural, performed by the Master puppeteer. The Japanese in Samurai days believed life was an illusion, but maybe changed their mind halfway through the hari kari ritual. Do you birds of a feather that fly high together, have better concepts
for the human creature’s dilemma??
Earl, my line from above: “The ability to think in religious terms is the mental truncate to avoid distress where a predisposal is in threat.”
So, you clearly don’t buy physicalism! Instead, you have adopted my escape hatch! No? But you have just escorted yourself walking backward out the front door of the SDA church. Right? “Immortal spirit.” That’s where you went bad! Welcome to the Fields of Ambrosia where your understanding fits in just fine.
“Love one another as I have loved you.” J. Christ. Wings I ride on with Fields of Ambrosia Big Bird. No, not the Sesame Street stuffed animal that can’t really fly!
I must say some of you are being way to hard on Bill Sorenson. He is write in his objection if one actually believes in Ellen White as a prophet. And obviously the author of the article believes in Ellen White as well since that is where we get the emphasis on the first and three angels messages. So he also believes in Ellen White but apparently he chooses to ignore many of the things she says on the issues above. I applaud those that move past Ellen White, but I find those who choose to call her a prophet and hold to her teachings as being more consistent with what they claim to believe as SDA’s.
” I find those who choose to call her a prophet and hold to her teachings as being more consistent with what they claim to believe as SDA’s.”
Thanks for your comment, Ron. I don’t see you around much. Either here or anywhere else on SDA forums. Did you give up on us?
Besides, they should be happy that I affirmed their spirituality fit so well in the modern SDA agenda. They are winning the church, not me. What more could they want?
We all know what Bugs and Dr. Taylor think of EGW and the historic SDA faith. And they represent the vast majority who post on Atoday. None the less, there are some who “pass through” as “lurkers” who may not realize what the goal of the forum is. I just want to remind them as they read the articles and comments by the supporters of the forums spirituality.
Bill, EGW, as best as I can tell, was not without guile, but overall was a very decent person. As a “prophet” not so much. She had no insight as to cosmology, geology, scriptural analysis, history or theology, all stuff that God apparently knew, but didn’t bother to share with her. She didn’t always practice her preaching, allegedly. She reflected the knowledge fads of her time and used advisers and editors to improve her statements. She was error prone on many fronts, seemed satisfied that she had a divine source.
She did excel at scolding and judgmental pronouncements.
“She did excel at scolding and judgmental pronouncements.”
And, no one was to question her so-called “God-ordained-authority”; contrary to “testing the spirits” as mentioned in the Bible. She appears more like a hen brooding over her chicks/congregation. If that portrays a prophet of God, then who needs them?
Well I probably agree with the forum goals. I just don’t think that they get there by cherry picking EGW. Pretending she did not say what she said. I was thinking I could easily get her quotes for pretty much each of the 7 myths mentioned. So if the myths are coming from one place…maybe that should be the focus rather then the enumerated myths.
Ron, I noticed an article you wrote in 2011: “The Problem of Progressive Adventists”, in which you made the following comments: “Now it is certainly not only my opinion that the IJ is neither logical or Biblical, after all if it was really biblical why is it not seen in any other Christian denominations?”
And: “….as when we go back to the Bible we see no IJ, we see nothing at all that presents the Sabbath as the seal of God or Sunday as the mark of the Beast. In fact when we go back to the Bible we see the seal of God is the Holy Spirit not the Sabbath.”
Ron, not my intentions to bring up the past, but I am impressed to see those who uphold and defend Bible Truth. I’m actually surprised Bill S. welcomes you. However, it’s good to see brotherly love.
” I’m actually surprised Bill S. welcomes you. However, it’s good to see brotherly love.”
I welcomed his comment as being rational and sane in the back drop of insanity by those who claim some affinity for the SDA church and then attack every fundamental doctrine the church is built on. Such as this by Bugs,
“Bill, EGW, as best as I can tell, was not without guile, but overall was a very decent person. As a “prophet” not so much. She had no insight as to cosmology, geology, scriptural analysis, history or theology,…..”
How can she be a “very decent person” if her whole testimony is false and bogus.
Kind of like those who admire Jesus, but deny His testimony about Himself.
The duplicity on this forum is incredible. I appreciate that some are more honest than others as they freely attack EGW and her message. They don’t play games, but simply “punch her in the mouth” spiritually and call her a “Quack” prophet.
They have kinder words for the Pope. Mr. “Smiley face” is all over the world convincing everyone just how kind and humble he is, with his “social justice” agenda. People love that. And the SDA church is “all in” for social justice all over the world.
People are so dumb they don’t know that the agenda for “social justice” is to enslave everybody in total dependence on the world government. But the SDA leaders are “all in” to be a part of it.
Mass confusion in religion and politics. Freedom is fast disappearing.
I see her “without guile” in the same manner I view you, Bill. The fact that you believe and promote “false and bogus” baloney in my estimation doesn’t mean you are deceptive from yours. I have no reason to think she was purposely deceptive. I make allowances for self-deception and mental inabilities to see and allow for alternative ways of thinking. I don’t know you, I didn’t know Ellen. If I did I would enjoy allowing each of you to be however you are, which, in your case, I already do.
I enjoy poking some fun at each of you. Not serious. I often poke fun at myself and don’t take seriously pokes at me.
Bible Truth cannot defend the IJ nor Sabbath observance for Christians. Only twisted doctrines try to do that.
“How [EGW] be a “very decent person” if her whole testimony is false and bogus.” That’s an easy one.
It appears that EGW was totally sincere and honest when she reported the things she remembered about what she experienced during her out-of-body experiences (“visions”). She totally and completely believed that these visions were God-inspired.
That she was a sincere and honest does not mean that what she stated to be the truth about a variety of topics are, in fact, true or factual. Where she obtained her information that she stated she had seen in vision is sometimes difficult to document. Her psychological profile is often stated to be that of a histrionic individual, i.e. someone who is “affected or self-consciously emotional; overly dramatic, in behavior or speech.” She also often went through periods where she was depressed.
In short, EGW possessed a complex personality that is difficult to unpack from this distance. Her religious sensibilities were all reinforced from the time she was a teenager by important individuals in her life: her mother, her husband, and then those individuals who came to view her as an oracle. She came to believe the myths that were generated about her. On the other hand, there is some interesting omissions in those close to her who apparently never believed in her visions — her twin sister, for example.
But IMHO, she was not a fraud.
Bill, your “People are so dumb they don’t know the agenda for Social Justice is to enslave everybody in total
dependence on world government”. Perfectly true, Bill. The apathy and acquiescence is unbelievable. Its as though all are walking around in a trance seeing nothing, hearing nothing. Just before the takeover that will permit the elite and environmentalists to reduce the global population to the “desired max one and a half billion”, which will be accomplished with biological weapons. Woe is the Earth.
Mr. Calahan states that “the elite and environmentalists [will] reduce the global population to the ‘desire max one and half billion’ . . . with biological weapons.”
And I thought we had only one comedian in the group of individuals that posts regularly on this thread. Mr. Calahan needs to be added to that short list.
He is undoubtedly showing how silly the conspiracy mongers are by putting in their mouths the most extreme statement that one might come up with. An unnamed “elite” and “environmentalists” are going to use “biological weapons” to reduce the population. You must be kidding! Any reasonable individual will consider this such an extreme, over-the-top statement that he/she might miss the humor.
First class. Well done joke.
Erv,
It would be a joke if some respected leaders of the environmentalist movement and people like the head of the British national health service weren’t actually on record saying that it will be necessary for the survival of the planet. How that would be achieved depends on whom you ask. I could dismiss such people as a joke if they weren’t so serious and some of them in roles where they influence public policy.
Earl, I used to be an avid reader of conspiracy theories. Few of them actually make much sense. In a way, SDA eschatology is a conspiracy theory, with the Pope becoming the ultimate of the ‘Elite’ who will wield unrivalled, supreme power over the lives of all, and make examples of those who refuse to obey (eg SDAs). But whoever the ‘elite’ might be, in a real sense, they are/become the ‘government.’ Paul said that God ordains the government, (not us western democracy types), and we are to honour the government.
Ok, lets say they cull earth’s population, ‘for the greater good.’ If ‘they’ possess such power as you describe, then likely there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it anyway. (Trump…… is he capable of such things?) And if the means employed is biological weapons, then possibly the first thing you will know about is that one day, you will wake up dead! So what? Fear not them that destroy the body! If your life is hid with Christ in God…… nothing can disturb your serenity. (Surely this emergence of the ‘Elite’ is the kind of ‘sign’ of the end of all things which SDAs look for, is it not?)
For everyone else, truly it is said: ‘where ignorance is bliss…… tis folly to be wise.’
Seems we are blessed with comedians here; a new one each week. Conspiracies flourish when there are those eager to listen and accept them whether in politics or religion. Anyone can spin them, and some fools believe them.
For those are aware that some SDA or former SDA have trashed the decalogue sabbath commandment ..
99% of Christianity have already done that with various antinomian/abrogation doctrines/scripture corrupting spins. If 99% have done that with one law, don’t be surprised at SDA pastors corrupting other doctrines. Case in point is the very unpopular victory over sin notion countered more than once in the above article.
Like the 99%…since most churchgoers have never read the whole bible once or spend much time actually studying it…they become victim of heresies.
Same issue prevails in SDA congregations. Many, if not most, SDA churchgoers don’t spend much time with bible, SS lesson or SOP.
My advice to Tom is learn what the real gospel is and to see how it is actually a gospel of grace thought replacement therapy program for Earthling rebellious criminals.
IS 55:7-9, Rom 12:2-3, 2 Cor 10:5
Jimbob: ‘For those are aware that some SDA or former SDA have trashed the decalogue sabbath commandment ..
99% of Christianity have already done that with various antinomian/abrogation doctrines/scripture corrupting spins. If 99% have done that with one law, don’t be surprised at SDA pastors corrupting other doctrines.’
Well, Jimbob, you are so right! What do you think about the official church organisation trashing the second commandment of the decalogue, ie, the one about graven images? If the church sanctions printing the graven images of Jesus, angels, the Ancient of Days etc, why would you think it strange that they ‘trash’ other laws of the ten? Do you think the printing of images of ‘spiritual beings’ can be blythely ignored as not being relevant to the second command?
Here is an easy way to detect a bible warping defeatist loser.
If they say…”everybody makes mistakes”, nobody’s perfect”, “we’re only human”.
But more than that: those who think humanity inherits eternal life are deluded. Just as those who say Jesus will retain His earthly body for eternity. Because only those who are born-again by the Spirit of God are sons of God; they are the ones, through His Son Jesus the Christ, who are the children of God and inherit eternal life. Man is of the dust and to dust he shall return.
Boring, again.
Dear Pastor Hughes,
I found some “mistakes” in your article. The advent movement preceded the SdA organization. They are related but one doesn’t equal the other.
Are adventists perceived as conveying a message of hope? Or a warning of impending doom?
If the everlasting gospel is glad tidings, how can the first angel’s message be considered to have an “ominous tone”?
Does the first angel’s message demand that the whole world worship the creator? Or does it invite everyone to do so?
Adventist mythologies?
The advent movement is Bible-based. If members (or even clergy) of our denomination are teaching myths, those myths aren’t adventist.
The problem isn’t so much that members of our denomination are teaching things I don’t believe and don’t teach. The problem is the implication that only one interpretation of the three angel’s messages is adventist. The 19th century advent movement existed for more than a decade before Ellen White started reporting that she had had visions.
What do you say we simplify the question of who is teaching “mythology” and who is teaching heresy?
(Continued)
Roger,
How can you expect someone to respond to your warnings about the judgement to come unless you are presenting them with a compelling, hope-filled alternative to what they have? The problem with Adventist eschatology and our evangelistic presentations is that we’re typically so focused on judgement and condemnation that we reduce the alternative to minor details. We fail to emphasize the amazing and powerful love of God, the incredible sacrifice of Jesus so we could be saved, the empowerment the He promises in the gift of the Holy Spirit and the hope that Jesus will one day return and take us away from this terrible, sin-filled place. Worst of all, the people visitors meet in our churches too often are failing to give evidence in their lives of the redemptive power of God. So that makes us like a firefighter trying to rescue someone from a burning building but the person in danger sees not hope outside, but equal or greater danger.
(Continued)
Some people read the Bible, find what they consider to be contradictions and decide the Bible isn’t reliable.
Other people “read the Bible backwards”; they start with the Gospels, next read the Epistles, interpret the Epistles by the way they understood (or were taught “the meaning” of the Gospels) and, if they read any other parts of the Bible, interpret those other parts by what they have decided is the meaning of the Gospels or/and the Epistles.
I recommend a third option. Start at the beginning. Set aside all Bible commentaries (including Ellen White’s writings). How readest thou? Then evaluate and interpret the later writings of prophets and apostles by the earlier writings.
If a person interprets the Bible by Joseph Smith’s writings, Joseph Smith’s writings can be considered to be entirely in harmony with the Bible.
I consider Ellen White to have provided some valuable insights into biblical truth but, because I use the principle of prior reference, I’m almost certain that no one gets the impression that I use her writings the way LdS use the writings of Joseph Smith.
If a person believes the millennial kingdom will be an heavenly (not an earthly) one, I can consider him an adventist. Whether that person is a member of the SdA organization is another question entirely and far less important in my view.
Roger, that bible-reading procedure is now redundant, imvho. Why wade through so much that is of concern only to the old covenant, when the new has already come? That would do little more than confuse, at least initially. And since confusion already reigns in abundance, why advocate a process which will only enhance confusion? There is no real necessity to read the OT at all. Does not the NT doesn’t have enough saving truth, in its own right? The only valuable parts of the OT are those which promise that ‘in those days I will make a new covenant.’ Now that the new has come, we really don’t ‘need’ the old.
Thank you, Tom, for your refreshing summary of some needed correctives. Too many have been chased away from faith by such misguided efforts to prepare for Christ’s return. God bless you as you share these truths with others!
For further study on church doctrine go to http://www.pastortomhughes.com
There is nothing in Pr. Hughes’ commentary to find fault with except his belief that perfectionism is widespread. But I suppose he interacts with more members than I do. He seems to be talking about a marginalized group like the folks at Hartland. Bill Sorenson is about the only one of this type I have come across. And I have worked in the church for 20 years.
Where are these people? I do remember attending a small church in Florida where I heard some of this. They only used the KJV Bible and drove a more “liberal” pastor out. Then at another small church I was shocked when an otherwise intelligent member started talking about conspiracies and the World Order that was to come. I am sure they are out there, but not in the majority he suggests. they aren’t in my moderately-sized church in the suburbs. I always hear righteousness by faith taught.
There is one exception, and that is the meaning of the Sabbath. It is still taught as if the day itself saves us. It does not. It symbolizes righteous by faith as being that of Jesus. We cannot save ourselves and keeping of Sabbath as His rest is how we reveal it. We rest in Jesus from our selfish works to gain the eternal life He has already given us. So long as we keep it only as obedience we fail to see its meaning and the Truth as it is Jesus goes no farther, and we are seen by others as legalists
(con’t) Concerning Sabbath as the seal of righteousness by faith, I can see a time coming when many will deny the Rest that is Jesus. It appears that all nominals or nones think that behavior is what Christianity means and that whatever the religion, acts are what saves. It’s the basis for all false religion in and out of Christianity. ISIS thinks they will go to paradise for killing Christians! It most certainly exists in some Adventists who have a hard time seeing the difference between acts and motives; obedience of love and selfish reasons for it. None of us are immune. Maybe if we trust and let it go, we can have Rest and pure actions.
Ella, There is not a single text in the Bible that calls the Sabbath a seal. There are passages which tell us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit; there is a passage which tells us circumcision is a seal of righteousness [justification] by faith i.e.,
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ro 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
In Revelation, the Father’s name appears in the foreheads of those who have been sealed in their foreheads (Rev. 7:3, 14:1).
Show me your text, not an far flung extrapolation.
Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
I think you might be right Mr Hansen. Would possession and creation in purpose go beyond seal of purpose?
Double talk and nonsense, WS. Show me a text like Romans 4:11. Itplainly says circumcision was the seal of God. There is no such Sabbath text.
I agree Mr Hansen, it’s more like a gift. If we are HIS it is ours. A Seal is more like HIS confirmation of the Covenant, in those requirements that we already had to meet.
I had never thought about it before like that and was asking if you thought it was like a gift after Seal?
i believe in this context we are speaking to “cutting to the heart of the matter”, as it benefits all of humanity, not just the males.
Ella,
I don’t think I’m saying anything you aren’t saying but I say it a bit differently. The sabbath IS the rest we enter as we learn to trust the Lord for our salvation. The sabbath DAY is a God-ordained symbol of that relationship of trust.
Roger
This is NOT the way Sabbath is presented in evangelistic meetings nor in Bible studies I am aware of. Until it becomes part of our testimony and teaching, I don’t see any chance of other Christians taking it seriously. Righteousness by faith is the third angel’s message. If read carefully this can be understood. The “beast” to me symbolizes works and loss of freedom through false religion.
“The sabbath DAY is a God-ordained symbol of that relationship of trust.”
Circumcision was given as a sign of God’s people long before Sabbath was given to man. Never in the NT was Sabbath given to Christians. The Jews are very conscious and protective of the special rites and celebrations (Lev. 23) given to them ONLY and no one else.
There are at least three different accounts of the Decalogue in the OT. In one, Sabbath is said to be a memorial of creation; another as freedom from slavery and another as a sign between Me and throughout your generation.
When the gentiles accepted Christ, they did not adopt Judaism with its special days and rituals–circumcision being the first–symbols given only to the Jews.
The Sabbath is God’s proclamation of we are His, and He is ours. Christ speaking to us of He not only is our
beginning, but our eternal future. Praise God and honor His creative power by honoring His day of rest for man.
Quite fascinating, to me, to watch this metamorphosis of the Sabbath rationale which appears to be happening in the thinking of some Adventists. It would appear that nowdays Sabbath is to be kept, but as a sign that one does not need to keep Sabbath as a live-saving act of law keeping. It would be interesting to hear what Bill S makes of this apparent shift of emphasis. Either way, Sabbath-keeping remains a necessity, it appears. I say ‘appears,’ since I’ve not seen it spelt out in much detail.
Ella, you use the phrase, ‘Sabbath as the seal of righteousness by faith.’ How does this differ from traditional Adventist phrase,’the sabbath is the seal of God?’
And then there is Hebrews 4 where the concepts of sabbath and rest are developed at some length. v8 in particular: ‘If Jesus had given them rest, he would not afterward have spoken of another day.’ (KJV)
Another day? Does this text alone rule out any virtue in the traditional Jewish sabbath for Christians?
Serge,
you said: Sabbath is to be kept, but as a sign that one does not need to keep Sabbath as a live-saving act of law keeping”
The law does not save life. The Bible is clear on that as was our early church teaching in 1888. One keeps Sabbath because one is saved not “needs” to. I believe EGW said the third angel’s message was” righteousness by faith in verity.” There is no virtue in the traditional way Jews keep Sabbath.
It isn’t new but ignored. My terminology may not be right, but I think the Sabbath was meant to represent Christ as our Rest. The doctrine is righteousness by faith. Therefore, God’s people could be “sealed” because they rest in Him. they also believe in Him as creator and worship Him as such in the first angel’s message, again seen in the Sabbath. Then they are invited to come out of the confusion of labeled {my term] religions. They are next warned of worshiping the beast and his image which takes away the Rest of Jesus or righteousness by faith.
Hebrew 4 is an important chapter, and can be used to promote personal opinion to not keep the OT Sabbath. That became tradition.
I am not a theologian, only a student of the Bible. To have it fit in with other biblical material it would seem to mean that when they Jewish leaders rejected the Messiah in their day, another day (often used with Day of Judgment) would come. They didn’t see the Sabbath as resting in God’s grace but insisted on their own works which they multiplied.
Pastor Hughes, thank you for your explanation on the idea of sabbath keeping Adventists.
On the matter of the “what is” and “when” of the Second Coming of Christ, I have an advice for those who are obsessed with the concern:
Ask the Holy Spirit to assist you and guide you into living lovingly and selflessly every moment. Occupy your time and energies daily, helping the needy and caring for the environment. Do all you can for the “least of these”, and leave the rest to God. Jesus will return when, and how He will, and you will get the reward you are looking for. Don’t worry! Take my word for it! You will be blessed. If you do not believe me, just try this formula.
Isn’t “mythology” a set of myths…? Seems the use of “mythology” here is flawed, although I agree with the overall thrust of the piece. And I could add a few more “myths” to this list!
Shabbat Shalom
Rev 14:6, 7
Then I saw another angel… having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach… saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and WORSHIP HIM WHO MADE heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
Clearly the first angels message centers on the EVERLASTING GOSPEL. This is not a new gospel, or a changing gospel. The message is: WORSHIP HIM WHO MADE… We clearly understand this as:
Ex 20:8-11″Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God… For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth… Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Yes, the Sabbath is a memorial of creation. And this is good, but is it the EVERLASTING GOSPEL?
Of what is the Seventh-day Sabbath a sign?
Ex 31:13
“… ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD WHO SANCTIFIES YOU.
Ok, now we have EVERLASTING GOOD NEWS. When I worship the Creator I am resting in Him and HE has given us the sign of Sabbath worship so we will never forget (EVERLASTING) that HE is the one that makes us HOLY—Sanctifies us!
It is sadly funny that the world accuses Sabbath keepers of worshiping on the 7th day to earn salvation, when it fact Sabbath is the sign, given by God that HE is the one that makes us HOLY.
Poorly done, Br. Nash. The passage says, Fear God and give glory to him…… That’s how it starts. To fear God and give him glory is the basic gospel call to repentance from sin. “The fear of the lord is to depart from evil…” (Pro. 3:7, 16:6) We glorify god by confessing our sin Josh. 7:19.
Nothing new or startling there.
Fear God, and give Him praise. All the talk of fearing God i believe, is wrong. i believe what is intended is
Honor God, Hallow God, Praise God, Glorify God, not be afraid of God. A Christian should not be afraid of
God, nor even atheists, as what kind of hell can one experience that we are not subject to now??
Beautiful Allen and you lead into the fallacy here. The sign is between HIM and us. It is our sign to others that we are HIS. No different from any of the other Works that HE gives us to do. But no one wants to work any more, but are they really just children that don’t want to be told what to do? Even by HIM.
I guess as of and in represent of the millennials, this entire mythology has no foundation and nothing to offer us.
The Spirit reminds us of Hebrews 6 in going unto perfection.
We can see the failures in the harvest, especially in the areas mentioned.
We have always understood worship and reverence of HIM from the Priesthood.
We have never been exposed to separatist mentality or ideologies.
We know we will be judged.
We know we have a mediator, but who also is the judge.
We are taught to fear HIM and be thankful.
You do not teach to fear or reverence HIM. You condemn others, violating multiple examples in your mythology. We know where hope, joy, power, freedom and eternal life comes from and it’s not you. We will reverence and serve HIM for there is no other.
Do you not sound like a lawyer, with little BIBLE or Prophesy? Are you not trying to sell yourself as priest? What do you have to offer other than HIM? What do you have to offer without HIM?
Our hearts do go out to you. Most of us can not imagine how hard it would be without the beacons and banners in the Body that belong to HIM. Our examples that we Love and…
Ella, et al,
I believe the everlasting gospel is primarily a reference to the story of the birth, life, teachings, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus and/or the doctrine that we are born selfish and “salvation” is the process whereby God replaces our selfishness with his selflessness. I also, believe that the everlasting gospel includes the following:
The doctrine that the initial phase of the final judgement bagan at the close of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 and that it involves the expunging of the record of the already-confessed-and-forgiven sins of those who trust the Lord for salvation.
Fiat creationism.
That the Babylon of Revelation 14:8 is the same as the Babylon of Revelation 18, that her fall is because of her unholy alliance with civil government and that the symbol can apply to any religious system or entity that appeals to civil government to enforce its beliefs, customs or prohibitions.
(Continued)
(Continued)
That the mark of the first beast of of Rev. 13 (referenced in 14:9) is the use of coercion with regard to religious beliefs, religious practices or religious prohibitions, the attempt to use such coercion or tacit approval of the use of such coercion. I fully expect coercion to be used with regard to a weekly holy day but I believe coercion to be the mark of the beast whether or not that is the specific doctrine involved. Coercion was what identified or “marked” the beast for the protestants of the 16th century and I believe the “mark” applies to the use of coercion by any religious system or entity.
From what I have written above about how I promote the three angels’ messages, can you list some doctrines that you have heard promoted by one or more SdAs and that someone who promotes the three angels’ messages as described above would certainly NOT teach?
All very intesresting thanks again pastor Tom Hughes for an enlightened article…must stop now and spend the rest of the day reading Reinder Bruinsma’s Facing Doubt and deciding after I read if I’m going to stay in this church…later saints, happy Sabbath to all !!!!!!
Dialogue is a good way to study the Bible. I am suggesting that the angels have multiple messages for our day. (1) The everlasting good news is the life (example) of Christ on earth, His death (taking on our sins), and resurrection (His glorified body represents the resurrected of all ages) our eternal life. This is to be witnessed to the world by using various methods but through the Holy Spirit in His people.
The angel continues: fear(respect and believe); give Him glory for He made us and all things (uses Gen. terminology in the Sabbath commandment). It warns of a time of judgment coming.
2) angel calls His people out of Babylon (confusion, false religion seen as adultery). The second use of the ten commandments relates to Sabbath in the exodus from Egypt. I see a metaphor here of coming out of false religion and slavery to its sin. Crossing the sea a kind of cleansing or baptism.
3) this angel has a loud voice warning of the beast; those who worship it have marks in their hands and heads (symbolizes works for salvation as they understand it) and the beast forces its belief system on all peoples it seeks to control. They have no “rest” who follow the beast, and Sabbath recognizes that Rest in Jesus.”The third angel’s message is righteousness by faith in verity.”
Beautifully said!
On Sept, 6, Elaine Nelson said this,
“Bible Truth cannot defend the IJ nor Sabbath observance for Christians. Only twisted doctrines try to do that.”
And of course, Glen Hansen agrees along with the majority of the posters.
The fair question is this, “How can this forum claim to be a support group to advocate and defend the SDA church with these types of testimonies not only allowed bu highly endorsed by the majority?”
As the saying goes, “I was born at night, but it wasn’t last night.” I am not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but I am smart enough to see that the majority who post are not SDA nor do they support any affinity to the SDA spirituality.
And this article by Tom Hughes is sure no challenge to that spirituality. Everything I stated at the beginning of the comments section is completely and totally verified by the ongoing responses, including Tom Hughes himself.
So, as everyone posting has affirmed, he is not fit to be a pastor in the SDA church. If you people wanted to verify his credibility as a SDA, you should have all opposed his presentation. But you didn’t. Very telling evidence against him as qualified to be a pastor in the SDA church.
Bill, You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no right to speak in my stead. The basic concept of judgment in Scripture implies investigation. as I have said in the past in these threads. Now you are simply slinging mud due to your incompetence in handling Scripture.
Your legalistic model of salvation can not be sustained by Scripture. Neither John or Paul support your view. Not a single reference to “commandments” in John’s writings refers to the Decalogue, so all of your “prooftexts” are irrelevant. Law in Paul’s writings, often refers to the entire OT. When he says faith establishes the law, what he means is that the OT, rightly understood calls people to believe in Jesus.
“Commandments” in John’s writings refer to the teachings of Christ: 1Jn 2:7 ¶ “Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.” The new commandment is the word you have heard. The “word” refers to the teachings of Christ. Paul says the same thing in Romans 10: 5-11 replacing obedience to the law with faith in Christ as a means to salvation.
You are left with nothing except your legalistic nonsense. Your “faith” is comparable to the judaizers. Yawn, boring, pedestrian. Criminals incarcerated may enjoy your “teachings.” In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Theirs is the only obeisance you deserve.
Edit: I John 2:7 says that the old commandment [not the new]is the word which they have heard. The word refers to the teachings of Christ
Bill, i am sorry for you. Your legalism wins no souls for God’s kingdom. Ask any one on this forum, is my
testimony gaining even one soul to the kingdom?? We are to build up the church of God, not destroy it by our legalistic harshness. Sorry Brother, we do love you, not your stridency.
“Bill, i am sorry for you. Your legalism wins no souls for God’s kingdom. Ask any one on this forum, is my
testimony gaining even one soul to the kingdom?? ”
Maybe not on this apostate forum, Earl. But no one will say they were not warned in the final judgment. And my ministry goes far beyond this forum in my work of going “about my Father’s business.”
As I have said, no doubt many “lurkers” pass by this way, and some have never heard the “straight testimony” of truth and never will here. And who knows, even you may some day wake up and realize how you have been deceived by some apostate application of the gospel that is far from the truth of the bible.
I really don’t spend that much time here.
But in some degree, Atoday is more “Christian” in open dialogue than Spectrum or Fulcrum 7. Fulcrum 7 is probably the most hypocritical forum surrounding the SDA church. But, they have a posting group with affirmation for the testimony of each other, just as you do here.
Anyway, any “private forum” can block anyone they want. That is their right. But to chide other forums like Spectrum and Atoday, like they do, is the highest level of duplicity when they do the same thing. I have more freedom on the online Review than Fulcrum 7.
Anyway, Earl. I have plenty to do. The jail ministry is ten times more rewarding than here anyway. More “heathen” will be converted and be in heaven than SDA’s anyway.
Bill Sorensen, I admire your tenacity. Threats of sanction fail to deter you from giving your message. Some times I read you carefully in order to get your message; and to try to determine how serious you are about the points you profer. Often I am at a loss to determine whether you are serious, or whether you are making fun of other contributers. It seems that I have a clue today. Read with me the following quote from your 1:33pm offering today: “As I have said, no doubt many “lurkers” pass by this way, and some have never heard the “straight testimony” of truth, and never will here”. Let us suppose that all the other contributers to this forum are in error, and no truth comes from their pen, are you telling me that no “straight testimony” of truth comes from your opinions either?
Bill, it is not fair to suggest that all the contributers of this forum are giving false testimony. Most of what we give here are opinions, and may not always be facts; but to suggest that there is no testimony to the truth here is to brand the whole effort a wasteful futility! Worse than that, you are confessing to a conspiracy. If I am mistaken, let us know.
“Bill, it is not fair to suggest that all the contributers of this forum are giving false testimony.”
Surely you must know, Nathaniel, that those who run the forum have an agenda. It is not just people who gather from here and there to voice their “opinion.”
The forum will gather those who basically agree with the agenda, just like any other forum will do. Fulcrum 7 has an agenda. Spectrum has an agenda and ADvindicate has an agenda. And each agenda has a specific spirituality they want to “sell” those who will “buy” it.
The mass confusion in the SDA church makes it very easy for any and every “Tom, Dick, and Harry” who has some influence to use it to advance their spirituality.
So, let’s cut to the chase. Over the years after EGW’s death, no one had any ultimate authority to define the historic SDA faith and the doctrinal foundation that had to be defended to maintain the identity of the SDA church. Every effort by church leadership only revealed the fact that on some level, they were totally inept to define or maintain the church identity.
This is because law and gospel were never really clearly defined in an official church definition that fit either EGW or historic Protestantism, and certainly not the bible. Especially in the context of the close of probation and what it would mean to “live in the sight of a Holy God without a mediator.”
But this is critical for the SDA definition of truth and the spirituality of the church.
continued…
After the Questions on Doctrine fiasco, Independent ministries sprang up like the “frogs of Egypt” and all were certain they were the ones who would defend the church and the truth against any and all detractors from the true SDA faith.
Wieland and Short
The “Brinsmead awakening”
The Standish brothers
Ron Spears and “our firm foundation”
Amazing Facts
John and Marshal Grosboll
John Osborne
and many other individuals like Ralph Larson, Dr. Ford, and now all the forum ministries that feel they can clearly define the truth and “save the church.” And how about 3ABN, Amazing Discoveries, etc. All of these ministries are not officially under the control of the SDA church. But all are sure they have the final message of truth and many oppose each other as apostate like Atoday or Spectrum and a host of others too many to name.
Here is the theological issue. Is obedience to the law in any way part of the salvation equation on any level? Many, if not most would say, “no”. Even the church says “No” and many so-called conservative so “no” like Amazing Facts.
But EGW does not support this position no matter how much they try to claim she does, and neither does the bible. But the SDA church does. So, what role does the law play if it has a part in the salvational process?
The hyper liberals claim it plays no part at all, and if it does, they automatically impute legalism to any such suggestion. The church is in a dilemma.
continued
If the law plays no part at all, it is antinomianism. If the law plays some part, it is legalism. How do we resolve the dilemma?
It is really quit simply. The moral law is not a legal document nor a legal mandate that the believer must do to merit the favor of God and earn salvation. But it is the moral imperative that all must agree to and obey or the sinner is not saved.
This means we “save ourselves” by the way we respond to the law and gospel in the context of the bible. Neither is it “faith alone” but it is “faith and works” that all must agree, or there is simply no moral motivation to obey the law. And moral perfection is not some inherent sinlessness that qualifies us to get through the time of trouble. None the less, it is still a moral mandate to be saved as a fitness for heaven.
Christ alone and His name is our legal right to heaven. But this in no way frees us from the necessity to obey the moral law to be saved. A failure to understand the legal and moral aspects of the kingdom of God always leads to mass confusion about salvation. But people stumble and bumble all over themselves and can not explain salvation nor the bible, nor EGW.
The liberals appeal to Paul, but he won’t support their bogus conclusions. The conservatives more often appeal to EGW, but she won’t support their bogus conclusions either. The SDA church has no consistent doctrine of salvation. But they “fake it” and just go on and “self destruct” results.
Bill, I was born into an Adventist home. I believe my parents were honest and sincere SDAs. They taught us what they knew about the Bible, christianity and Mrs White. Generally, they cooperated with church leadership, carrying out the dictates of “the Lord’s appointed servants” in the local conferences. As children, we learned from their example and their precepts.
When I grew up and learned to read the Bible and Mrs White for myself, I discovered that much of what we were taught about the SDA church was not Biblical. In time, I got rid of the SDA fanaticism I was socialised into. Truly Bill, when I read some of your comments in this forum, they remind me of the days of my fanaticism. Perhaps that is why I am not impressed by some of your points of view.
Perhaps the most outstanding casualty of my conversion is the regard I had for Mrs White. I am convinced she was a plagiarist. To me, the problem was more than simply borrowing without permission. When she said “I was shown”, she conveyed the impression that she was shown in vision. More than that, some of my SDA leaders try to convince me that God inspired her to copy material from non-inspired sources, and that is ok.
Bill, you worry that leadership is unable to define or maintain church identity. I do not know how you expect the leaders to do this. In a changing environment, it is inevitable that the church adjust to keep its relevance. The church has a mission, and by fulfilling its mission, …cont’d
“When I grew up and learned to read the Bible and Mrs White for myself, I discovered that much of what we were taught about the SDA church was not Biblical. In time, I got rid of the SDA fanaticism I was socialised into. Truly Bill, when I read some of your comments in this forum, they remind me of the days of my fanaticism. Perhaps that is why I am not impressed by some of your points of view.”
You simply affirm what I posted about the issues confronting the SDA church. And you fit nicely on this forum. This is a fellowship of kindred spirits who hold your basic view of the historic SDA faith.
Namely, EGW is bogus and not biblical.
Mr. Sorensen’s again mischaracterizes EGW: She honestly believed that all of her views that came to her in her “visions” came from God. In a number of things, she was mistaken. But, bogus? No, if you mean, a conscious fraud. And she held to a number of views which can’t be found in the bible. And, she copied from others without attribution and then denied doing it. That’s a real problem. The explanation of why she did that is probably a combination of factors. There is no simple explanation.
and by fulfilling its mission it maintains its relevance. When the early church began to embrace the gentiles, that embrace came with its concomitant problems:- circumcision, dieting, even socialising among the brethren, etc. Even Jesus himself met stiff opposition from the existing establishment of his day:- working on sabbath, eating with sinners, meddling with Samritans, calling himself the “son of God”,etc,etc; and the people from whom the opposition came were characters in good standing in the society and the religious establishment.
There is no reason to worry about people bringing false doctrines into the SDA church. Clearly, God’s Church is bigger than the SDA denomination. Granted the SDAs may contribute membership into the Church; but God’s Church is way beyond and above the confines of the SDA. God is not so careless about the fate of His Church to leave into the hands of sinful men. Can you imagine God putting His stamp on what passes for church in today’s society?
What we call church here will always be changimg. God is managing His Church. All we have to do is to enlist on God’s term into His Fold.
Is it a fact that we can cause a delay in the return of Christ by what we do, or fail to do? If that is so,we can stall His plans for a return; and keep Him away forever. This does not seem reasonable to me.
Nathaniel, If the Second Advent can be delayed by our conduct, one major cause is a knife and a fork. I just saw one of the principal proponents of LGT, sinless perfectionism in a YouTube video. The guy was approaching the physiognomy of the mafioso in Sopranos who constantly stuffed themselves with submarine sandwiches, pasta and rich gravy, pastry, etc, etc. He began his talk by saying he skipped his dinner so he could have a clear mind. He doesn’t skip many meals, I can say with certainty.
Normally, while disgusted, I wouldn’t say much about this because even the SDA ministry has its share of people who belong in a WeightWatchers meeting rather than the pulpit; however, sinless perfectionists invite scrutiny with the nonsense they teach but they certainly don’t walk their talk.
If gluttony can delay the Second Coming, perhaps the wait will be longer than we hoped.
Another one of these sinless perfectionists stuck one or both of his parents in a nursing home being too busy preaching nonsense or unqualified to get a real job and care for them. Seems to me there were Ten Commandments and only one with a promise i.e., “Honor your father and mother.” Some SDA are more concerned about doing nothing one day a week than caring for their parents. Maybe they should work on Saturday if it means the difference between a SNF and decent care for a family member.
Odd that Paul singled out Honor your Father and Mother while EGW fretted about the Sabbath.
Apologies for the personal remarks about diet and parents in the above post.
Did you read the article? I think it answers your question.
God’s judgment is unavoidable. We have every reason to fear the God of Holiness given that we not only are born of a sinful nature, we have cultivated it. We need to confess and forsake all sin–all of it. Confessing and forsaking sin does not save us. Jesus saves us. We confess our sins as we turn from rebellion. We can be rebels in doing evil and we can be rebels in doing good. The rebels in doing good were the ones that crucified Our Lord.
The Sabbath is the sign given by God that we might know that HE is the one that makes us holy. (Ex 31:13).
Whenever we claim standing on any other basis than Jesus we are messed up. Jesus did not die to save us in sin but from sin. Having said that, let’s remember that JESUS is our SAVIOR. There is just one Way, one Door and any who try to enter any other way are robbers and murders.
We go in through the Door–Jesus and yes, by definition rebels in doing good is evil indeed.
Thank you Mr Nash. It seems like many want to preach stopping at the Door in the Doctrine of CHRIST and only wanting the Blessings, but not go through and assume the responsibilities of the Doctrine of GOD or through and into Perfection.
I have to be careful to present only “for it is written” or as in response. Again, thank you for standing for HIM.
Whispers sister,
The growing majority in many countries, including America and Australia, have turned their backs on religion because of all the negatives it represents to them and the quickest way known to turn them away from considering anything related to God is for a person like you to come to them with the “it is written” approach. If you want to be effective for God it is essential that you first be a living demonstration of the power of God working in you so they will see things they want to have in their life.
Yes, there is a time and place for quoting scripture and with most people that time and place comes after seeing the principles of faith demonstrated consistently in daily life. The single most powerful tool you have for sharing the Gospel is your story of how God has worked in your life and changed you. It is easy to think that entire story must be shared in a single download when it is far more effectively shared in tidbits and small servings as parts of your story are applicable to another person’s challenges and, most of all, when they ask questions about what they have seen in your life. So, are you going to persist in doing what turns people off? Or, are you going to let God work in you so you will have a redemption story to share and let Him teach you how to share it effectively so they will want to know what scripture says?
You realize that you present failing areas like parts of America, Australia, Germany and so forth, admit they are failing areas and then attempt to justify some new doctrine (or actually lack of doctrine) which has already been implemented? I could not provide any better proof of failure, do you have any better proof of success?
How can anyone contend something better than HIM and HIS Word, by providing proofs of failure? While CHRIST relied on “for it is written” and more than half of us are obligated to present as “for it is written”? Knowing that we have absolutely nothing to offer or do for the Gift of Salvation. Because we are not only unworthy but incapable of providing anything in return.
Should we all sit around on our behinds and listen or should we have always listened to HIM and done HIS works? What does anyone have to offer that is better than HIM and HIS Word? When can we handle Scripture, when we assume growth enough to preach and complain?
As millennials, we have a Strong GOD, strong Doctrine and strong Body. We see many out there attempting to represent, while pleading I and me. We contend the biggest problem is the I’s have nothing to offer in or without HIM. They are definitely the best at representing them-self’s and creating proven unfruitful results. Do you think, since it is commanded, that maybe talking about HIM more and us less might be better? Remember, Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of GOD?
Whispers sister,
Jesus promised that if we are connected to Him then we will bear much fruit for the Kingdom of God. I’ve been down the road you’re traveling so I’m telling you from experience that it is a path to utter failure.
There is much more to determining to know Christ alone than devoting yourself to quoting scripture. The most powerful presentation of the Gospel is a person’s testimony about the power of God working in them and transforming them. Christianity is failing in many areas for one simple reason: it has become a form of godliness that denies the power of God. A Christian who spouts scripture all the time but whose life does not show the transforming power of God is powerless and that is why the secular world rejects it. The fastest way known to be rejected by the secular world is to go around spouting scripture, but the most effective way to share about God is to sympathize with the struggles of your friends and neighbors and share the intimate ways God has ministered to you.
If you can’t show others how the love and power of God have changed you, it is because the power of God is not in you and no amount of godly-sounding noise making will fill that void or make you effective at doing what God wants you doing.
So the path of the multitudes are destined for failure, because we do not believe in your already proven path of failure? Because we believe in HIM and not you? Are you not the form of godliness that denies HIS power? The fastest way of rejection by the secular world is for you to go around spouting about you instead of HIM. You are the cymbal and HE is the Word. We would all rather hear about HIM and the world needs to hear about HIM, not you.
2 Corinthians 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
We understand in Love. It is easy to be carried around on the wind, when we are but a vapor. It is easy to be deceived without the Foundation of HIS Word. Should others not have this same Love extended to them? We present HIM in Love, while you preach you. What do you have to offer more than HIM?
We Love HIM and you. You just love what you are preaching. That is the difference.
Whispers Sister,
What “proven path of failure?” I am seeing God bless my ministry and the church is growing as a result. Before you charge others with pursuing a false path, how about measuring what results you are seeing from your approach and telling us how God is blessing.
In John, chapter 15, Jesus talks about him being the vine and us the branches and anyone who is “in Him” will bear much fruit (verse 5) but anyone who is not bearing fruit is like a dry branch that will be cut off and burned (verse 6). Unfortunately, there are a number of people on this site who seem to think that making noise about what doesn’t bear fruit for the Kingdom of God is somehow correcting or instructing those of us who are actually seeing God bless our work for Him. So if you aren’t seeing obvious results, you’re nothing more than a dry branch.
You asked what “proven path of failure?” after stating above “I’ve been down the road you’re traveling so I’m telling you from experience that it is a path to utter failure.” Do you not remember things?
John 15:
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I thought GOD Called, CHRIST Chose and along with delegates were judge, jury and executioner. Did everyone die and leave you in charge of everything? Since you command of all, condemn all and claim HIS Works? Have you thought about the spirit that leads you? It does seem awfully demanding and condemning of others, while self centered and lenient of you? Though I would contend this most convenient, for you.
We would never claim HIS Works or HIS works in the Body. The more appropriate statement would be that we feel the Love in the Body, experience HIS Blessings and see the growth of the Body; in spite of you and the stumbling blocks you attempt to create. You may want to think about that.
” We present HIM in Love, while you preach you.”
I am glad someone recognizes that William likes to talk about himself and scorns the word of God as being useless and worthless compared to himself.
Paul says, “We preach Christ and not ourselves.”
But William would rather preach himself than Christ.
Bill,
I speak only of Christ working through me, the lessons He has taught me and blessings that come as a result of doing the work that He has given me to do. If the fact that I am seeing God bless my ministry but you are not is making you think I am preaching myself, then feel free to continue comforting yourself with that delusion. I would only ask that you keep it to yourself because sharing it is spreading a lie for which you will have to answer in the Judgement. However, if you would allow the Holy Spirit to be your guide as Jesus commanded us to, then you could begin enjoying the same great blessings that come when you do things God’s way and you, too, could be celebrating the great works of God in your ministry.
“Paul says, “We preach Christ and not ourselves.””
Bill, that’s right. Those who want to receive praise from man will only proclaim what “good works” they are doing. And will use English translations which support their personal beliefs, rather than the proven unadulterated Textus Receptus.
DD,
Obviously spoken by someone who has no experience with God working through them and using them to grow the Kingdom of God as Jesus said true believers would be doing.
William, what are you doing here? Are you not wasting time? Do you think your words or anyone else’s are of any great salvation value to readers? Are not these forums a meeting place for Christians to fellowship and discuss various Biblical topics and issues? What people do for God should not be your concern, just as Jesus instructed Peter after he saw John following: “Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.” John 21:20-22.
But, I’m sure you will counter these words with your usual responses; is that what you specialize in?
DD,
Jesus said anyone who was connected to Him would “bear much fruit,” but it seems you are intent on showing everyone that you are doing nothing for God. Such disobedience is not something of which a professed Christian should be so proud. Scripture promises that the Holy Spirit will be in all who believe and the power of God will be working through them. Jesus said we are either with Him or against Him, so your attacks on those who are actually doing what Jesus told us to do makes it very clear which side you aren’t on.
Mark 4:
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Do you sow the Word or choke the Word with you?
Ephesians 4:
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
Are you not the one accusing?
Whispers Sister,
You sound exactly like “Conviction” who used to post here in the same way, but who got banned for offensive postings. How can we be sure you aren’t “Conviction” using a new screen name?
Are you sure you want to be showing-off to the world that the power of God is not in you? You see, Jesus told His followers they would be His witnesses, that they would go out and tell their story about their encounters with Him and by so doing create new believers. The four Gospels and most of the New Testament is their testimonies about their experiences with God. So when you resort to quoting them because you have no experience with the power of God, you’re shouting to the world that you don’t know God! Yet you persist in condemning others as if they did not know God and were not being effective ministers for Him. Such accusations are not from God. How many new believers are your words without personal testimony creating? If you aren’t being effective at creating new believers, Jesus said you’re a dead branch destined to be thrown into the fire. Are you sure you want to risk that destiny?
Agree with you here. Bill. This kind of “look at me” religion is toxic. “How great I am” because of what God does through me. Self centered nonsense. True gospel is about looking at Jesus.
How we apply the words, “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works,” varies from person to person, and may be misused by some to artificially enhance their status in the Adventist camp. What I have noted in my work as a writer with various Church organizations is that those most persistent in seeking public acclaim for their “good works” are often some of the first to move out of the mainstream in search of greener doctrinal and social pastures, where they can assemble fractious followings with themselves as all-encompassing leaders. These are often very gifted communicators of the gospel who concurrent with their gift, wish to achieve a level of acclaim that scratches carnal itches. The term “narcissistic” comes to mind, a condition where a person suffers doubts about their personal worthiness and strives to compensate for that discomfort by finding ways to enhance themselves in the eyes of their colleagues and fellow members. The best counsel I can share with such individuals is to assure them that Christ is all-sufficient to advance those he gifts and calls, and while we should not stand in the way of expanding the footprint of our witness, neither should we seek out ways to gain self-gratifying acclaim. Those who use the Church to feed their compulsions for recognition stand very precariously, on earthquake-prone terrain….
Edwin,
Well said. I fully agree.
The problem here is not that anyone is seeking acclaim, but how threatening it is to a person’s powerless form of religion when they are challenged by someone who is actually ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit and how the powerless person reacts defensively and heaps derision on the one exposing their spiritual impotence. Having your powerless religion exposed is not a comfortable position. Fortunately, as I have experienced, God is powerful to change us and faithful to fulfill His promise to empower us with the Holy Spirit so we can minister effectively, so I wish others could experience that same transformation and become effective in working for God. I praise God for the mighty works I have seen Him do and the privilege of being His hands for a small part of it.
Edwin, thank you, I couldn’t have written it better.
Hansen,
Apparently you are having a hard time reading what I am writing because I’m not pointing to myself or anything that I do, but encouraging people to look to God and to become channels through which His power can flow. You NEVER see me saying anything about how great I am, but always about what I see God doing and if God can use me, then He can use you. I’m having so much fun and enjoying so many blessings from letting Him use me that I want everybody who claims to be a follower of Jesus to discover the empowerment He promises to each of us.
Now, if you want to persist in telling lies about me, please remember that you’ll have to answer to God for that.
Actually, William. my reading skills are not bad, much better than my writing skills. Since I’m not the only one who is taking issue with your “look at me” religious style, perhaps you should take note. “The holy spirit working in me” religion that you advocate has a long and toxic history, going back at least to people like Munster, Stubner, and other members of the first generation Radical Reformation. Luther was disgusted by their naval gazing, especially when their work degenerated into pillaging, robbery and ultimately murder.
The “Spirit Spirit, Spirit” brand of religion “inspired” one of his most intemperate tracts “Against the Murdering Hordes of Peasants.” This tract. along with “On the Jews and their Lies” has provided fodder for generations of gospel haters. it really doesn’t say so much about Luther but plenty about the danger he perceived in a brand of religion similar to yours.
Uriah Smith was promoting the same nonsense in his LGT tract “The parable of the Ten Virgins. People will be so close to Jesus, they won’t need any Scripture anymore, he opined.
Their is a subjective and an objective emphasis in religious experience. One points to Calvary, the death and resurrection, the ascension, the sinless life of Another. One focuses on me, me, me. After we have done all expected of us, we remain unprofitable servants, When Jesus did what was expected of Him, he received many crowns.
There
Mark 4 is in the New Testament. The Words quoted above are HIS Words in Parable and prove your lack of understanding.
Are you not the one sticking your head up and condemning everyone else? Are you not the spiritual predator here, preaching yourself instead of HIM? Are you willing to risk that destiny? While we present HIM and HIS Word as commanded?
Are you part of those that conspired within conflict of interest to have my father removed? While you spiritually harassed my sister, his youngest daughter? Someone definitely conspired to have HIM removed and not allow him to protect HER, for nothing I could see other than personal reasons. That is the simple Truth.
Does it bother you or do you feel discriminated against because I am here posting? Do I not have the right to defend my family members and Church from your personal opinions? Would you rather it be my father or HIM? The real question is how far are you and those like situated willing to take your own personal opinions? To the point of forcing some self assumed right to lead others astray? While removing the rights of others to protect their own and complain about the results? And call it GOD? While offering nothing of GOD? Forgive them, they know not what they do.
Whispers Sister,
You’re missing my point: His words are not your testimony about your experience with God’s redeeming power so you’re just an echo-chamber, a copy machine with no point. You have nothing to share that would entice someone to want to follow Jesus. Please, get some experience with God’s redeeming and transforming power so you will have a testimony to share.
William, I admire your commitments as reflected in your testimony to the Holy Soirit’s
Work in your life. But when you regularly chide others becomes their comments do not speak to your priorities or are not testimonies to Holy Spirit power, you sound like an annoying, self-righteous scold. It is offensive and unnecessary for you to judge the character and spiritual walk of others based upon the comments they make.
Nathan,
You are one voice here whom I respect and you have reminded me that, while Jesus argued with the Pharisees, He only did so for a limited period of time. Further, as several in this forum have been liberal in doing in response to my spiritual challenges, in defense of their traditionalism they knew no restraint in heaping insinuations and accusations against Jesus and we all know how that ended. So it is time for me to re-focus my energies on doing the ministry tasks God has given me to do. So I’m out.
“You’re missing my point: His words are not your testimony about your experience with God’s redeeming power so you’re just an echo-chamber, a copy machine with no point.”
Your whole religion is bogus, William Noel.
Do you think people are only puppets in the hand of God and we play no part in the witnessing process????
You are totally misguided on every level and people see through your vain religion. A true Christian tells what He knows about Christ from the bible and the Holy Spirit validates the witness if it is true. The Holy Spirit does nothing apart from responsible participation by the believer.
So, whether you will admit it or not, all you are doing is bragging about all the “good works” you do, that the Holy Spirit uses in sharing your faith. Obvious it ain’t working here, as people see through your bogus testimony.
I sure didn’t mean to drive you away, William. You are a deep thinker with conservative instincts, so I always look forward to your comments. I view this website as a valuable independent voice in Adventism which demonstrates that people with sharp differences can communicate civilly about matters of ultimate significance. That’s a big deal.
But it shouldn’t be too big a deal. It’s not meant to be a site for testimonials, any more than the golf course should be a place for me to ask people why they are there rather than witnessing to the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Ideas are seldom life changing. But exchanges on this site have helped to refine my thinking and deepen my faith over time.
Stay with us. I need conservative allies. Just stick with analyzing and judging ideas rather than people. Of course if you believe That dialogue on this website is interfering with what God is calling you to do and be, then by all means, follow His call. Hope to hear more of your wisdom and insight. But if not, Godspeed!
Nathan,
It’s funny that you say that you “need conservative allies” because you have plenty of them on this site. Perhaps you were just being charitable after having been frank in your previous constructive criticism.
I want to be careful here for a variety of reasons, one of which is that I don’t want to be guilty of kicking someone when they even appear to be down, nor of piling on so to speak. But let the record show that it wasn’t Stephen Foster, neither could it have been me, to run William Noel off of these boards (as to this point I have not commented on this thread at all).
Of course I personally don’t buy Noel’s exit as a real, permanent, or even a lengthy exit; anymore than I’ve bought any of what he had to say. He’ll be back sooner than later because, as with many, his commitment to his temporal political ideology, literally trumps all of his other commitments; and as Trump perhaps becomes POTUS, Noel will feel compelled to come to the defense of the indefensible…and you Nathan, will indeed welcome more “conservative allies” in your curious attempts to do likewise.
Stephen, let it also be on record that no one “run William Noel off of these boards”, he did so of his own will. But to clarify, William isn’t innocent in that respect, neither. He spent much of his time criticizing and attacking others, especially those who quoted Scripture, which, to my understanding is another form of driving commenters away. And how did he do this? Just as one of the criminals on the cross beside Jesus taunted and threw words of doubt at Jesus, so too William threw doubt at others, (who believe in Jesus the Christ) claiming they didn’t have the H.S. within them–according to his apparent divine insight into other people’s spirituality. And, no, I’m not kicking him when he’s down. But after seeing some here who are back-tracking in sympathy toward him, I think that’s giving him confidence to continue in the same path.
DD,
How is reminding others of the instructions God gave us for doing His work criticizing them? That is what Jesus did when He confronted the Pharisees with their sins and their being more loyal to the Roman government than to God. Jesus wants us to bear much fruit for the Kingdom of God. How are your criticisms of those who are actually obeying God’s instructions building the Kingdom of God?
Your last paragraph is disappointing, Stephen. It is the type of gratuitous personal attack, character denigration and ascription of motives that you protest when others do it to you. I hope the new civility software that Monte Sahlin tells us is being introduced will cause all of us to exercise greater restraint in judging the motives and character of one another in order to discount their ideas.
This is instructive coming from someone in your position Nathan. Noting, as I did, that I did not personally buy any of what Noel was ‘selling’ (or saying), and predicting that he would soon be back because his commitment to political ideology took priority to other commitments, and that defending Trump—whether he does it or you do it, is tantamount to defending the indefensible; is seen by you Nathan, an AT board member, as a “gratuitous personal attack, character denigration and ascription of motives.”
I did not say anything about personal character. I said something about political motivations and commitments; and factual credibility from my personal perspective.
So your disappointment with the specific paragraph in which I did so is instructive to me for the future, in that this type of thing will apparently be discouraged; especially if the perspective is not popular with certain readers.
Yet I note, that you told Noel that he “[sounded] like an annoying, self-righteous scold.” Now if I had said that, instead of noting his overwhelming ideological commitment, that would have been OK, I guess.
This should be interesting; perhaps even predictable.
Stephen, I very specifically referenced a comment by William that I felt was inappropriate. you kitchen-sinked and generalized about tangential deep seated personal resentments. You speculated about his motivations, saying that his political ideology trumps all his other commitments (Wow! Isn’t there a saying about people who live in glass houses?), and that he will be defending the indefensible. You should recognize your venting as a childish, incendiary broadside.
I was pointed and specific. I told him how his questioning of others’ spiritual commitments felt to me. I chided him as a sympathetic friend. Is that the spirit you were feeling when you made your comment? It sure didn’t feel like it to me!
Nathan,
You have incorrectly re-characterized your criticism of Noel. You actually (and factually) said to him “…when you regularly chide others becomes their comments do not speak to your priorities or are not testimonies to Holy Spirit power, you sound like an annoying, self-righteous scold. It is offensive and unnecessary for you to judge the character and spiritual walk of others based upon the comments they make.”
Now, you falsely claim that you “very specifically referenced a comment by William that I felt was inappropriate;” when in reality you “kitchen-sinked” the kind of “annoying, self-righteous” scolding and offensive comments that are used to “regularly chide others;” and to “judge the character and spiritual walk of others based upon the comments they make.”
Although a specific comment may well have been what prompted/precipitated your criticism; you did not reference a specific comment by Noel. You were not “pointed and specific” in saying to him “when you regularly chide others…”
And then you applauded your own motives while impugning mine in saying “I chided him as a sympathetic friend. Is that the spirit you were feeling when you made your comment? It sure didn’t feel like it to me!”
Noting (or even predicting) that ideological commitment serves as motivation for Noel’s commentary doesn’t represent a character attack. A prediction that my ideology would soon compel me to criticize Trump wouldn’t constitute a character attack. You simply…
Stephen,
What demon has possessed you that you would think your words are reflective of the character of Christ when you issue such a stream of accusations and insinuations against anyone as you have been writing about me this week? Why would you accuse me of speaking falsehoods when you have made it clear in the past that you don’t believe what scripture says about the followers of Jesus ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit? That you would express such disbelief about what you have never seen?
You not believing something doesn’t mean it isn’t true, just that you haven’t seen it so you don’t know if it is true. Jesus said those who have not seen, yet have believed would be blessed for believing. You can enjoy that same blessing if you allow God to replace the hatred that is so obvious is in your heart and words with His great love. Maybe then you, too, can discover the guidance and empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
…overreacted this time Nathan.
Ah but Stephen, doesn’t everyone who disagrees with you overreact – at least in your judgment? Perhaps it is only me. But please…tell me again – in case I didn’t read your response carefully – was your criticism of William offered in a spirit of Christian friendship? I think I know my own motives.
I don’t think even William would disagree with my observation that he has regularly scolded commenters for not witnessing to the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. That’s pretty much an undisputed fact. I told him how that feels to me.
You on the other hand offered unadulterated Foster trash talk, saying that ideology trumps William’s other commitments (clearly an inflammatory opinion) and predicting that he will continue to defend the indefensible – thus doubly insulting him by suggesting that is his M.O., and opening that it will continue to be. Your comment had nothing to do with the conversation. It was the rough equivalent of a cop kicking an arrestee when the arrestee has done nothing.
That you would attempt to defend your comment by suggesting a moral equivalency between what I said and what you said is pretty amazing.
Nathan,
This isn’t even a close call. Obviously I am not Noel’s friend, and I have never intimated that my comments to you were offered out of a friendship with him. That does not change the fact that I predicted he would not be gone for long, if for no other reason—or for the precise reason—that I anticipated him to try to defend Trump at some point out of ideological commitment.
You were the guy who “kitchen-sinked” his penchant for sounding “annoying” and “self-righteous” and for “scolding” and for “[judging] the character and spiritual walk of others based upon the comments they make.”
These comments are all thankfully time-stamped. I hope that you note what Noel said (to yours truly) about 35 minutes after you posted; and that you can at some point tell us either if you think your friend received your message (or any other messages) to him…or if there is truly an equivalency between the comments that I’ve made to you (about him) and the comments he made about yours truly (to yours truly).
Really Nathan; you should consider trying to be a little more objective about this. No offense man; but this isn’t close. I’m just saying…
I do agree with you, Stephen, that my “friend” does not seem to have taken my message to heart. And I never suggested that you were or should be his friend. I nevertheless think it quite reasonable to hope that comments – even sharply critical ones – will be offered in a SPIRIT of friendship that do not cast aspersions on a person’s character or integrity. Do you disagree?
Nathan,
At this stage, as much as I’ve written on this site on any number of topics, and as much as I have conversed with many different people including you, I would hope that you would realize that I surely agree with you that to the greatest extent as humanly possible, even sharply critical comments should ideally be offered “in a spirit of friendship that [does] not cast aspersions on a person’s character or integrity.”
What I suspect got your goat is that I mentioned your (ideological) ally’s ideological commitment; and predicted a concomitant willingness to defend what I perceive to be the indefensible—and I threw you in there with him in that specific regard.
That wasn’t a character aspersion; as I wouldn’t consider someone predicting that I couldn’t stay away because my ideological commitment or persuasion would not permit me to avoid criticizing Trump to be a character aspersion or attack on me.
But since you bridled at the observation, and since you did so in Noel’s behalf, I will apologize for having rubbed you the wrong way. I mistakenly operated under an obviously inaccurate assessment of your sensibilities. Please forgive me for that.
AT,
Perhaps attention is warranted here.
It might be a good idea to look at oneself to examine if there isn’t some hypocrisy and self-righteous indignation lurking in the background. “Perhaps”?
Please advise as to the follow up you might suggest.
It is pretty clear that there are elemental conversations going on.
People feel tense … defensiveness seems more prevalent than accepting. Being right feels more more compelling than feeling collaborative. Little evidence anyone is listening. Differences are really hard to accept, and even harder to eliminate, despite the compulsion to try.
Who isn’t uneasy by all of this.
The metaphor that comes to mind is people people having gorged on the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then vomiting on each other.
What a mess. And now what?
There is no pretending this can somehow be resolved by the usual appeal to out of sight out of mind solution … with the focus on making people disappear. It is like the thought that the solution to sin is vaporizing sinners once and for all, right?
“What a mess. And now what?”
The end is better than the beginning. But in the beginning was the Word of God and He will be in the end: “I the LORD, am the first; and with the last I am He” (Isa. 41:4; Rev. 22:13). So who is the last man to stand with Him? No man; only Jesus the Christ, God the Father and…….
And yet it’s inconceivable that God would have created everything knowing it was all a waste of time; but will it have been? “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.” Rom. 8:19.
William Noel. We love you Brother, and your wide experience in life. As you have cautioned Conviction, and lately Whispers Sister, on continuously quoting scripture, of which we all know until it’s become trite. Likewise, your writing of the zealous usage of the Holy Spirit, and it’s impression on your heart to love thy neighbor, in service, continually, and of sharing those experiences seems like boasting. To some of your co-commentors it has become trite, and also overkill, some thinking you are raising up William, instead of Christ. God’s blessings to you and don’t go away.
Earl,
Please forgive me if it appears that I am lifting-up myself because I want all the credit to go to God. At the same time, it is hard to separate myself from what God is doing because His power and guidance are doing those things through me and seeing that happen is such an immense blessing. I used to struggle with it until a few years ago when God gave me a direct answer: “MY power, YOUR ministry that I have given you to do for ME.” Because of that I speak from a different point of view that often is hard for those who have not experienced the power of the Holy Spirit to understand.
Follow up to my own comment just above, Yeah …
This just in: http://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-09-14/the-10-most-depressed-countries
US is third most depressed nation in the world. Seems like rich territory for the everlasting gospel. Seventh-day Adventism is stalled, and most churches are in decline. Suppose the seven myths listed in this article has a connection?
C’mon, Bill. This is the World Health Organization, the same outfit that ranked the U.S. 37th in the world in health care in a still widely cited study that by its own admission had something like a 20% confidence rating.
I haven’t looked at the study you cite, but am highly skeptical. I know that the U.S. has gat more categories of mental/emotional pathologies and mental health professionals than other countries. So one would naturally expect more reporting of mental illness. One factor driving this is insurance reimbursement, which isn’t an issue in countries with nationalized health care.
W.H.O. studies tend to be highly agenda driven. Of course the U.S. does have a ton of serious mental health problems that are not adequately addressed for a variety of reasons. But I wouldn’t consider W.H.O. a reliable source for much of anything.
That should be “far” more – not “gat” more.
It is my understanding that DSM 5 contains over 150 different diagnoses of mental disorders. By these definitions, most U.S. citizens probably have a diagnosable disorder. In order to get paid by insurance companies for treatment, mental health professionals have to come up with a recognized diagnosis. So the incentive to find mental illness is strong. Depression is generally an associated feature of most psychiatric diagnoses.
Bill,
If there is a Pathway to Health event announced where you can participate, I hope that you will. The big thing I saw in Beckley, WV was that people are hungry for solutions that only God can offer and when you touch them with His love, they respond because the membership in the local church has doubled and the growth continues. We need to be doing what actually works to spread the Gospel, but our arguing about theology and our generalized failure to minister to people in the power of the Holy Spirit is causing many to die without knowing salvation.
If all the sinners got vaporized, who would Bro. Noel admonish?
And this just in: Bill Garbers is reporting, from his assigned location on the Sunny Side of the Street, the nations are clinically depressed. Maybe its the election cycle.
Bro. Abbott,
There would be no need to admonish because professed Christians would no longer be advocating for doing things their own way instead of following God’s instructions. I would also continue celebrating the greatness of God and the privilege of being part of the ministry of His great, redeeming power that I have seen working in my life and in others. Here’s the latest thing I’m celebrating: in my volunteer work I am lead planner for a major evangelistic event and on Tuesday morning I was in conference with the site manager for the convention facility we are wanting to use. Cost is a major issue and God delivered a huge answer to our prayers because renting the convention facility could cost us six figures, yet they are offering it to us for free. Being a participant with God and getting to see Him do things like that is why I wish so greatly that others would let God work through them so they can be celebrating the amazing works of God in their ministries for Him. But, some insist on getting sidetracked by impotent illusions about how we should be doing His work, illusions like thinking it is proper and good to attack those who are actually doing things for God.
Have you found the specific ministry that God wants you doing? Are you seeing Him bless that ministry and doing great things through you? If not, why not?
William Noel, good to see you back from your long needed rest. I think Stephen F. reads you like a book–and you think you know what is in the hearts of all those who post here? Anyway, if there is any resentment between us–I forgive you. I’m sure you can do the same.
DD,
Please, be careful about criticizing one who is ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit because God wants to empower you, too, and if you ever let Him do that, one day soon you could be doing the same things you have been criticizing.
Yes, some of the criticisms thrown my direction lately have challenged my willingness to forgive. Still, I am sympathetic because I used to be the same way before the Holy Spirit got ahold of me and showed me what He wanted me doing for Him. Plus, at Pentecost the Pharisees accused the Disciples of being drunk, so if those who claim to be believers but whose words raise serious question about their claim want to criticize me, I figure I’m in good company. No, I haven’t learned to celebrate it as a mark of honor, but God is growing me that direction.
“Please, be careful about criticizing one who is ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit because God wants to empower you, too,”
William N., with what I have seen here on these forums, how you have battled head to head with some commenters; I seriously question whether you are led by the H.S. Is the H.S. working through you during these forum battles, or that old man? Even Paul and some of the other apostles had grievances between each other–was that Christ speaking through them?
Secondly, your “testimony” of how God is answering your prayers is questionable at best. Why do I say this? Firstly, this “major evangelistic event” may not be witnessing to Jesus Christ. So many these days proclaim a false Gospel and twist Biblical Prophecies to suit their denominational agenda; incorporating themselves, world events, politics and world powers into Bible Prophecies which has nothing to do with this world; but rather is all about the Kingdom of God which is Spiritual in nature and not visible to human eyes.
So, if the convention facility was available free of charge, so what? Another show of so-called “good works”, just as the Pope is running around with great swelling words of generosity towards the poor and needy—words are cheap! So, who is behind the advancement of this evangelistic event? By the way, will they be quoting Scripture?
DD,
You have not seen God, yet you say that you believe in Him. So, why is it so hard for you to believe other things that you have not seen that are promised by God and someone else is experiencing? Do you remember that little thing Jesus said about faith the size of a mustard seed being powerful enough to command a mountain to move and it would happen? He was talking about how much faith it takes to believe in the Holy Spirit. Matthew 13:58 says Jesus was not able to do many miracles in one area because of the unbelief of the people. Do we need to use measurements such as cells or atoms to describe the size of your faith in God? Or, should we be be speaking of lakes or oceans to describe the size of your unbelief?
The disciple Thomas got the nickname “Doubting Thomas” because of his refusal to believe Jesus was risen from the dead. When they met, Jesus’ command to Thomas was “Stop doubting and believe!” (John 20:27). It really doesn’t matter if you believe what I say because my greater concern is that your unbelief is so great that it is preventing you from enjoying the blessings that come from expanding your belief in God and discovering the ministry the Holy Spirit wants you doing for Him. When are you going to start believing Him?
William Noel,
My brother, I am not God’s faithful servant. I try, but daily I find myself serving another master. Sin besets me. Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love.
God blesses others through me, but I get in the way of HIM as Whispers might put it. I will proclaim God’s mercy to mankind through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. I can do nothing less. I’m sure I can do nothing more.
I was just piling on brother William, forgive me.
A bunch of “wacky testimonies” in my opinion. All to patronize William Noel. He doesn’t have a clue of what other people do, but constantly affirms how great he is for all his good works while claiming no one does anything but himself.
One sick dude. As it was well said, “I was born at night, but it wasn’t last night.” If you don’t see through his duplicity, well, you do have a problem.
Bill,
Wacky testimony? Ha! You say that because you haven’t seen what I see God doing. If you’re ever in North Alabama, drop me a line and I’ll be happy to let you see for yourself. Or, ask any member of my church about my ministry because many of them have been blessed by God’s love through it. Then you can decide if the “one sick dude” is the one who is actually doing things for God, or the one who isn’t and criticizes those who are.
“Wacky testimony? Ha! You say that because you haven’t seen what I see God doing.”
In spite of all your disclaimers, William, it is obvious that your testimony is all about yourself that you claim is really about God. I am reminded of the prayer of the hypocrite who prayed,
“God, I thank you that I am not like other men…….”
He claimed to give God the credit but in reality it was all about himself. Just like you. But notice, he says, “I thank YOU……..” He claimed to give God the glory while actually advocating his own holiness.
The fact you continually condemn and chide everyone else about what they are doing for Jesus, when you don’t have a clue of what others do for Jesus, is more than relevant evidence that you are really intent on telling everyone all the wonderful things you “do for Jesus”.
I don’t think anyone would object to you posting. But if you get “punched out” for your duplicity, you may want to rethink your testimony and ask yourself who you really want glorified. It just might be yourself.
Bill,
The premise of the article that kicked-off this discussion was about myths that are delaying Christ’s return because they are distracted away from doing what God wants them doing to spread His love. Your persistence in criticizing me is giving great illustration to the reality of how many in the church are more focused on being right and correcting others than letting God’s great love change their hearts and empower them to minister redemption to others. You may think you are serving God, but your words shout otherwise.
Myths delaying Christ’s coming?
Take a survey at your church and see what percentage want Jesus to come back before next Sabbath (before presidential debates).
Before the election.
Before 2017
Before 2020
Before they die.
Do a survey to see how people feel/react when they hear the pastor say…”Jesus is coming soon.”
Scared
Anxious
Cynical
Joyful
Jimbob,
So true! That’s a great illustration of how immense the need is inside the church for us to experience the power of the Gospel ourselves. After all, how can we possibly share God’s love if we’re not drinking it in and letting it overflow onto others? That’s where connecting with the Holy Spirit is so critical because He is God living inside us, empowering us and reaching-out through us. To the person who is self-righteous, the thought of the Holy Spirit living inside us is a very threatening prospect because we want to keep God at a “safe distance.” To those of us who have realized the truth of our sinful condition and become so desperate for redemption that we’ve been forced to let Him in, it is a miraculous transformation that changes us forever. I praise God daily for the transformation that I have seen Him working in me and the privilege of being His hands ministering His love to others. So, if you haven’t already, I pray that you will let the Holy Spirit live in you and empower you to be God’s hands, too.
William, Deconstructing the religious experience of another is time poorly spent. I’m always happy to hear of God’s kingdom being expanded I went to the Carter Report when it first opened in Glendale, CA. He went from meeting in a park to renting a large building, to evangelizing Russia and thousands of baptisms, church plants, and impressive miracles. You may have gotten a building for free but Carter raised millions of dollars [in Glendale an SDA burnt over area] so he could pay the building fee.
I had some of the same thoughts as DD regarding the content of the meetings. AF does evangelism all the time but it largely promotes a toxic form of legalism that I do not espouse i.e., not worth crossing the street to attend. I heard from an SDA evangelist that the song “Take my Hand, Precious Lord” was inspired by Satan and its author ~demon possessed.
I like Billy Graham’s evangelism. He tells about Jesus, the forgiveness of sin, repentance. What the HS is doing in me? meh. It’s a toxic focus, me, me , me. What are we supposed to do, great one? Lick your boots, kiss your ring? I’m willing to stipulate that you are doing much more for God than I am, that my pathetic life pales in comparison to yours. The obvious implication is that you are so much better than the rest of us. Share your wisdom with us all that it? Grow up!
You want to measure yourself by the people around you? Try measuring yourself by Jesus, then come back and beat your chest, if you dare.
Hansen,
The Lord leads many in paths that others do not understand and this leads some to openly question those who are following God instead of inquiring and letting God amaze them with His marvelous working. Unfortunately, there are some in the church for whom it is an involuntary reflex to attribute anything that doesn’t match their limited concepts about God as being from Satan.
Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to the wind, which you cannot see, yet it is powerful. You don’t see where it comes from or where it is going, yet it pushes sailboats across the water, it spins windmills, it spreads seeds across the land and a hundred other obvious and measurable results. If you want to know that it is the Holy Spirit working, measure the results. I will let any observer who doubts what I say about the Holy Spirit to measure the results God is producing because it is not my work, but His. Compare the growth of the Kingdom of God to the non-growth or shrinkage being produced by those who are so liberal in voicing their doubts and let the obvious answer show you who is telling you the truth. Jesus said those who are connected to Him will be producing “much fruit” for the kingdom, but those who are not are like dry branches destined to be burned-up. See for yourself who is producing fruit and who is destined to be destroyed.
Do you want to be effective for God, or kindling for the fires of hell?
William,
“It is not good to eat much honey, so for men to search their own glory is not glory” Proverbs.
Your “testimony” is the antithesis of the wise man’s comment. The church gave up the good works checklist a long time ago: prayed, studied the quarterly, visited the sick, gave a Bible study, passed out literature, rented an evangelistic hall, etc.,etc.
Scripture plainly states that if you have received the word of truth, the salvation gospel, you have been sealed with the HS as a guarantee of your eternal inheritance. What the HS does in you after you accept the salvation gospel is not my business.
Sure, it’s fun to share what God is doing but more importantly, what he has done i.e., Jesus, died, was buried, and rose again the third day…
The comments on this article prove that commenting on these articles is a waste of time. Nobody’s opinion will be changed by reading a comment here. So why waste time posting comments? Why not get involved in some useful real-life cause like the Red Cross, the Human Rights Watch, Black Lies Matter, or the Polaris Project (anti-human trafficking). These organizations are making a real and tangible difference for people.
Marissa,
The church, specifically the Seventh-day Adventist church, is a real-life cause. To discuss issues that affect the church, to gain knowledge and understanding of the issues. To better understand church dogma is not a waste of time. Trying to persuade others helps me understand what I believe and it helps me understand what they believe. Time is never wasted in the persuasive attempt. What do you suggest? We stop talking and just separate?
Question, your Black Lies Matter Typo, right?
So why do you comment or read, Marissa. Just tuning in during a break in a busy schedule saving the world? Do you ever do anything for fun or intellectual stimulation? What makes you assume that those converse on this website are not also involved in worthy causes?
Hi Marissa
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think some people just like arguing. Reminds me of a Monty Python sketch where people visit a bloke in an office and pay him money just for the privilege of having an argument with him – pointless. Maybe for some its abut egos
On another note. With all the squabbling going on it might me pertinent to remind ourselves of the following verse:
Gal 5:22,23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Peter,
I accept your fair and proper chastisement for falling into the trap of arguing with critics who don’t believe in the Holy Spirit.
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. NIV 2 Tim.
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Titus 3 NASB
Saint Paul thought we ought to avoid certain types of disputations. He is right. We are warned.
I don’t recall his endorsing, Black Lives Matter or Human Rights Watch. In fact I have an easier time imagining Paul engaging some of the discussion here at AT than I do seeing him protesting against the ‘the man’.
If we stick to issues, and refrain from personal criticism of one another, we will be far more productive! The good news is, that once Jesus steps out of the Heavenly sanctuary, and finishes his Priestly Ministry, you are forever pronounced righteous and you cannot be lost from that moment on! You will be righteous still! Having had your sins paid for on the cross of calvary! The Judgment vindicates you through Jesus Christ the righteous!
It is sad, that in the Adventist church there is so much disagreement over what is the gospel. Have we educated ourselves so thoroughly that we have forgotten the basics. The gospel is a message of righteousness by faith. Justification by faith, sanctification by faith, obedience through faith.
I can’t help but notice that Revelation describes the remnant as keeping the commandments of Hod and the faith of Jesus. Why mention the part about keeping the commandments, if it’s only Christ’s obedience that matters and all we need is the faith part?
Obedience is not Roman Catholic theology, it is the promise of the gospel. Sanctification is a promise that we experience through faith. The focus of the gospel is a faith relationship with Jesus, but it’s fruit is obedience.
Wow…..Tom Hughes is spot on! The blood of Christ is the only reason that we are saved! Let me repeat that THE ONLY REASON WE ARE SAVED IS CHRIST SHED BLOOD! There is no other reason, every good gift comes from God…..We are totaly dependant on Him For everything…. Without Him we can do? NOTHING…. I think people need to remember its all about Jesus.. Im talking salvation here not santification, but even that is OF CHRIST in Him always in Him…..1 Cor 1 : 30 Do we realize how totally dependant we are on Him, so let us look to Him, and live. He has shown you O man what is good, and what does The Lord REQUIRE OF YOU, BUT TO DO JUSTLY,AND TO LOVE MERCY, AND WALK HUMBLY WITH THY GOD? MIcah 6: 6-8.. Didnt the Holy prophets when brought before the Lord in vision exclaim Im a unclean thing and a man undone and the Lord would touch them and strengthen them, and theese were holy men Isaiah Daniel Ezekiel Jeremiah just to name a few..Christ our high priest stands for His people, you guys may try to get through the veil on your holyness but i will enter with HIS BLOOD. ITS A SERIOUS MISTAKE TO ENTER WITHOUT THE BLOOD. WHEN WE SEEK TO GAIN HEAVEN ON THE MERRITS OF CHRIST THE SOUL MAKE PROGRESS…ON CHRIST THE ROCK, HE IS MY SALVATION. HE IS MY WISDOM, RIGHTOUSNESS, SANTIFICATION, AND RDEMPTION. ALL GLORY TO THE LORD. 1 COR 30,31 THE JOY THAT COMES IN LOOKING TO JESUS, GET LOST IN HIS LOVE FOLKS….THEN THE HEART WILL MELT AND THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT WILL BE PRESENT…MAY HIS G
Amen, Daniel. Yes, you are 100% accurate in your relying on Christ and His righteousness. Its not about us, It is all about Jesus the Christ. Christ is not dependent on mankind to finish the work of the Gospel, in taking the WORD throughout. But the Worldwide Internet has made the Gospel available to every one
who answers the call of the Holy Spirit, who attempts to reach every soul.
This guy wow… He states his conclusion before presenting the facts like leading statements which would be discredited in any courtroom. The author of this article states…
Seven Adventist Mythologies That Are DELAYING Christ’s Second Coming
What are the Adventist MYTHOLOGIES that are keeping us from understanding the message of the first angel?
“The second mythology is Harvest Theology.
This teaching of many leading Adventists, including editors of prestigious magazines and publications for over 50 years, is a teaching first espoused by M. L. Andreasen, an Adventist minister who had his credentials taken away (SET UP). Many accepted the teaching and failed to see that it is a totally false concept that leads straight to an erroneous view of righteousness by faith (ATTACK). The basic premise is that before Jesus can come again, at least some Adventists have to reach a state of sinless perfection by character development, so that by the time Jesus steps out of the sanctuary in heaven, they are so perfect that they can stand before God without a mediator and live a sinless, perfect life until Jesus gets to Earth.” End Quote…
So lets sort this out…
Pastor Hughes believes that perfectionism is a MYTHOLOGY that is delaying the second coming of Jesus. Then he attaches ML Andreasen as a heretic who led the charge into this misconception and puts a limit on the level of character development that is possible by faith in Jesus.
I guess the writer of this…
I guess the writer of this article would disagree with Ellen White on this subject.
“Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing {GC 425.1}
So according to Pastor Tom Hughes Mrs White was wrong. Then he twists her words to support his ideology of perfect sinners…
“Ellen White taught we are sinful, yet holy. “Though guilty, he is looked upon as innocent. Christ fulfilled every requirement demanded by justice.”
SINFUL YET HOLY? What does righteous have to do with unrighteousness?
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;
So the moment ye repent and receive forgiveness ye are seen as Holy, and your PAST sins are forgiven. But does this cover future sins? Jesus said “go and sin no more”. Was Jesus a liar? Or was it that He was speaking the power to overcome sin into existence?
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is…
“Jesus said “go and sin no more”. Was Jesus a liar? Or was it that He was speaking the power to overcome sin into existence?”
James, that is exactly right! That has been my revelation from Christ for some time now. Here we see again the power of Jesus’ words which transforms our minds: “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.” Jer. 13:23.
Yes, Christ speaks His Word and our hearts are changed; transforming us into His likeness.
“By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” Heb. 11:3.
The Word of God frames our hearts while in our mother’s womb:
“13 For You formed my inward parts; You have covered me in my mother’s womb….15 My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed…….” Ps. 13913-16.
This is righteousness by faith. We believe the words of Christ to give us the strength to overcome sins. The same voice who said “let there be light” also said “be ye therefore perfect” not as a way of covering our sinful characters but to transform us into the likeness of His sinless character.
James,
Righteousness by faith is first about the imputed righteousness of Christ. God reckons/ counts/ imputes/credits to us the righteousness of another, namely Jesus. Romans 4:1-8 is a good explanation of righteousness by faith, which is actually justification by faith. Abraham is our example– he believed in God’s promise and his faith was counted as righteousness. Works don’t contribute to justification. If they did,then God would owe us justification and it wouldn’t be by grace.
Paul puts works in their proper place by using circumcision to illustrate: After Abraham was justified by faith, he was circumcised. It was actually quite a few years later, which is why people refer to justification as primary i.e., the primacy of justification. Circumcision was a sign of the righteousness which God reckoned to Abraham because of his faith.
God thinks of us as righteous and the works we do are a sign to others of how God thinks of us. There are other nuances but the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believing, repentant sinner is the primary one.
Some people use the expression “righteousness by faith” to refer to the salvation process, including sanctification/ holy living; Scripture, however, especially in Romans 4 defines justification by Christ’s imputed righteousness as “righteousness by faith.”
I was both amused concerned by the article and the comments. Does anyone really believe that they can do anything to delay or to accelerate the coming of Jesus? I seem to remember Jesus’ statement that only God knew the time. Have I missed something here?
Only those who think they are superior to others in some way think their role in this life can change the course of God’s plans.
George, most Christians know, being admonished and taught by Jesus to watch and be ready; and as the ten virgins in Matt. 25, we see that there was nothing they could do to hasten, or delay the Bride Groom’s return, but to be ready. No, you haven’t “missed something here”, but others have.
Therefore…what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:11-12.
Danie, the “hastening” mentioned in 2 Pet. 3:12 refers to the “promised return”—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” (verse 9). What is the “promise”? “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Rev. 22:7; “Surely I am coming quickly.” (22:20). What else is the “promise”? The promise of the Father to His Son Jesus: ““You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; 12 like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” Heb. 1:10-12; just as it also mentions in 2 Pet. 3:10: “…in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise,…both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
Could then, 2 Pet. 3:12, be interpreted to mean: “…looking for the hastening (or speedy) return of the day of God,…”? If so, isn’t this the same as “being ready”?
Addendum:
The last sentence should have been: If so, isn’t this the same as “watch and be ready.”?
Hebrews 10:14 says something to this: NIV: “…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
Now how can they be perfect if they are BEING made holy? I am just so thankful I am covered by such grace, that, as the prophet has said, is as real as the air we breathe.
I have been thinking about this the last few days. I am under, hidden by the blood in a sense. God does not see me, but his son. Covered. Does that mean I can get away with whatever I want to? Sin indiscriminately?
No rather it means that I am pressing toward the mark in my imperfection, being made holy over time, forsaking sin, turning to righteousness. The blood gives me time to become like the covering that surronds me. How happy I am! I have one who has taken my nakedness and given me clothes of his making that are of the finest cloth dipped in blood, full of righteousness. And he makes me daily more like him.
Am I perfect. YES! And NO! That is the mystery of the whole thing. Like light being a wave and a particle at the same time. Who can find God by searching? But we are his if we will be his. Praise God.
And interesting question you might ponder is whether we will consider ourselves sinners when we get to heaven.
“And interesting question you might ponder is whether we will consider ourselves sinners when we get to heaven.”
Good question. Allen. If God will not “remember” our sins, then how will we?
“12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Heb. 8:12.
By the way, I love your testimony for Jesus Christ.
Allen, Being “perfect” in Hebrews 10 means to have no more consciousness or recollection of sin, according to the opening verses of the chapter. In the context of the DoA, the Jews weren’t being perfected in the daily service because they had to face their sins every year. And the DoA didn’t really perfect them either, since they would soon begin the daily rituals.
Sanctification in chapter 10 is explained by 9:13,14 viz., the cleansing of the conscience. When the text says he has perfected for ever those being sanctified what he means is that those having their conscience purged by the blood of Christ will never again be confronted by their sins, as the Jews were every year. Does that make sense to you?
DD said: “Only those who think they are superior to others in some way think their role in this life can change the course of God’s plans.”
Really? Scripture seems to indicate that we can change God’s mind. Consider the prayer of Hezekiah. How can God giving him more time at his request not be changing history? Especially when you see how things could have been different if he had died instead of living for 15 more years.
I think you have a low view of your ability to make a difference. We have real power to have real effects, and real terrible freedom to do so. We are responsible for our actions and they can have profound consequences for good or evil. Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:10 that we will appear before the judgement seat of Christ to give an accounting of the deeds done in the body. It is our privilege and duty to be influences for God and make our lives a blessing rather than a curse.
“Scripture seems to indicate that we can change God’s mind. Consider the prayer of Hezekiah.”
Yes, Allen, but what did King Hezekiah do latter? Should we not trust in God to “finish the work in righteousness”?: “28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.” Rom. 9:28.
I stand by what I wrote earlier: We can do nothing to change God’s all encompassing determined plan. We are either swept along by His grace and Love or perish in denying His Grace, which is through His Son Jesus the Christ.
what did King Hezekiah do latter
He goofed up, influenced Babylon to come and destroy Judah, and caused a lot of trouble. He rather should have submitted to God and perhaps the best would have been to die!
But my point is, he changed history. In a bad way this time.
Paul says in his defense before Agrippa said, “I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.” But what if he had been? The NT would have been very different. Salvation would have had something like, perhaps his letters, but they would not have been Pauline.
I think we can be and must be more proactive. What we do makes a difference. Yes, God has control, but he adopts to circumstances. He allowed the Israelites to have a king, but it would have been better if they had kept him as their king, even though David was one whom God used mightily.
I think we will be amazed an chagrined by what we could have and did do. I have realized that we are profoundly free, and will be responsible for what we could have done but didn’t and for what we did.
There is yet another assumption: That He didn’t come…
Huh? Lets look at that objectively and historically.
True, Jesus did not fly through the air and descend upon a cloud, visiting the faithful wherever they were at, waiting upon hills and rooftops. But then, why should He?
No Prophet of God has ever come to earth except by natural means. i.e. born as a baby to a mother, rather than appearing in circus fashion.
Soooo… maybe we missed Him??
Well, maybe we just didn’t look hard enough. For if our eyes were directed skywards, and that isn’t the direction He was coming from, perhaps there was another manger out there somewhere, another mother, another child.
Jesus said: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place.”
Ok Daniel had a vision in Elam (southwest Persia), where Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam.” Is this a hint?
What happened in Elam in 1844? Might be a good place to look, as the country was turned upside down by the claim of the Bab (Gate). He was killed in 1850.
Interestingly enough, the year 1260 AH = 1844 AD which equals the year ONE BE, a calendar instituted by the Bab. Daniel spoke of 1260, and Revelation speaks of 1260. Either there was an incredible coincidence, or Islam is somehow linked to the Jewish and Christian religion.
What happened next? 1280 AH = 1863 AD … hmmm. One called Baha’u’llah (Glory of…
Many people read horoscopes and believe everything they read. Seems to always FIT with their daily events.
Dale, all kinds of world events occur every day; and many attempt to FIT them into Bible Prophecies because it suits them.
Beyond the NT accounts of Jesus the Christ, Biblical prophecies, as far as history is concerned, has ended. The Kingdom of God is Spiritual in nature and has nothing to do with world politics or world events. That is my understanding.
The Great Adventist movement of the 19th Century saw the beginnings of the Mormon Church, the Seventh Day Adventist Church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses Church, the Templar Church of Germany, plus the Adventists of Islam, the Shaykis, all at the same time proclaiming that Christ was about to return. When He didn’t return in the way each of these movements thought He should they became confused and despondent. The Great Disappointment became a reality in their minds. Yet, something miraculous did happen on May 23, 1844! Read Revelation 3:12 then go to http://www.bahai.org. In Peace.
“Our life’s purpose is to progress spiritually by serving our fellow human beings. In doing so, we acquire the divine qualities we will need in the life to come.”
William, where does Christ come into all their beliefs?