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  1. Ervin Taylor
    10 December 2015 @ 12:23 pm

    If more local conferences in the First World, especially in the United States, would publicly follow the splendid example of this German conference, the current regime in power at the General Conference would be shown that their ability to halt the will of the vast majority of members in the First World to move ahead with the ordination of women to the gospel ministry has been defeated.

  2. malcolm dwyer
    10 December 2015 @ 2:38 pm

    It is high time that we start adding the 29th verse to the gal 3:28 quote.
    With out quoting the 29th verse,people are getting the wrong answer.

  3. danny bell
    10 December 2015 @ 11:10 pm

    Ford Crisis……..reloading……..

  4. Charity
    11 December 2015 @ 12:28 am

    Maybe we can give them BIBLES and teach them to read?

    With an average -1% growth rate per year, over the last 10 years, we might not have to worry about them for long. The death rate is almost double the baptisms in the Hansa Conference now.

    And again: how long does someone bang their head against the wall, until they figure out what they are doing isn’t working. How can anyone that is failing consider their plans better than others; or better than HIS?

    How many rebellious children does it take to void HIS PLAN and bring the world to its knees; this after HE Sacrificed HIS SON for us? I think we will soon find out. Pity to these folks and much more heart to those lost, because they were way to selfish to give up themselves and Love others. They always want more that HIS Sacrifice and love the world more.

    • Anne
      11 December 2015 @ 12:53 pm

      I wanted to leave a reply but this is better than I would have said it. Some conferences in Germany do not believe in our teachings anymore. You cannot teach against the papacy.

      • Ervin Taylor
        11 December 2015 @ 5:32 pm

        Within the the German Adventist Church “you cannot teach against the papacy.” Another reason to congratulate our German coreligionists. Oh that the rest of the Adventist Church would emulate this understanding of what it means to be a mature Adventist in the modern world.

  5. George Tichy
    11 December 2015 @ 10:21 am

    Another SDA group determined to (finally) eliminate the shameful discrimination of women from our midst. Little by little people are denouncing the “SA Insanity.”

    I hope that all the talking will also be soon followed by the walking. There have been many Church offices “supporting” WO, but I want to see them actualizing their position by taking common sense action and proceeding to ordaining their female ministers.

  6. Andreas Bochmann
    11 December 2015 @ 10:47 am

    Thank you, Charity, for your kind offer of Bibles and willingness to overcome illiteracy. It may be ill directed at the Hansa Conference, though.

    You quote a low growth rate. How about attributing it to a lack of pastors? Or to the lack of relevancy of the church in a post-modern society, when we still argue about who God may call to serve Him? Do you really insinuate that the growth rate for the last 10 years has been low, because in 2015 this conference produced this statement?

    When it comes to those often repeated claims of rebellion… What if the Hansa Conference would have rebelled against their Union’s decision (who before SA was the first Union to vote with an overwhelming majority for women’s ordination)? Would you still call that “rebellion”? Probably not – though in your apparent understanding of hierarchies it would be exactly that.

    And last but not least – should a protestant Christian NOT follow his or her conscience?

    The issue is a little more complex than you make it appear.

    • George Tichy
      11 December 2015 @ 12:29 pm

      Maybe the Church has not been growing as fast as some people expect also because nowadays it may not be that easy to find “candidates” who want to join a “women discriminating church.”

      Discrimination should be a practice of the past, related to barbarism. But unfortunately there are still way too many people addicted to it, even in churches…

    • Anne
      11 December 2015 @ 1:01 pm

      I agree with Charity. Post modernism is more like ecumenism which these churches are seeking. I attenteded a church in Germany. I was not baptized by the time. There was no difference with any Sunday church. There was a coffee break where coffee was served. What is the point of joining another Sunday church on Saturday. We are called to be different.

      • Ervin Taylor
        11 December 2015 @ 2:13 pm

        We are different by not serving coffee? Would it be o.k. to serve caffeine free coffee? Or perhaps part of that post was lost because clearly that can’t be what the poster was suggesting?

      • EM
        12 December 2015 @ 12:09 am

        I consider this a very shallow judgement of what makes an Adventist. BTW I understand other churches are decreasing in attendance as well.

    • William Noel
      12 December 2015 @ 5:25 am


      Conscience and the intimate, personal guidance of the Holy Spirit are the devil to the simple-minded.

  7. Ervin Taylor
    11 December 2015 @ 11:22 am

    Pity should be reserved for those on the wrong side of history who continue to fail to understand the need in the modern world for openness, equality and justice in all human institutions including and especially in institutional churches. Using religious language in an attempt to deflect the need for change in how we treat all members of our religious community needs to be especially rejected.

  8. Loren James
    11 December 2015 @ 11:24 am

    Romans 16:1 ” I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: Phebe is a woman who is “diakonos”, (Servant, minister, or deacon), of the church at Cenchrea. Lets see how diakonos used in other places:
    In Romans 15:8 we read that Christ was a “minister… of the truth”.
    In 1Corinthians 3:5 Paul and Apollos are “ministers by whom ye believed”. There is no indication that there was any difference between Phebe, Stephen, Philip, or others who were ordained as “servants”, “ministers”, or “deacons”.
    What biblical reason can the GC provide for “ordaining” men as ministers of the gospel, while “commissioning” women?
    This lack of respect for women whose gift has been recognized and approved saddens me, and will haunt our church.

  9. David Long
    11 December 2015 @ 12:36 pm

    Man is the head of woman just as Christ is the head of the church. You want to embrace the world, then stop faking to be a SDA.

  10. Peter Cieslar
    11 December 2015 @ 12:57 pm

    “What biblical reason can the GC provide for “ordaining” men as ministers of the gospel, while “commissioning” women?”
    Loren, the GC doesn’t have to provide biblical reasons. Their jurisdiction is to uphold the decision of the delegates at the last GC conference that made that decision. Your ‘gripe’ should be with the delegates and not with the GC leaders.

    As I remember there was a lot of prayer done before the vote was taken ….I wonder, did God hear their prayers? If He did why did God answer in the negative? I am a firm believer in prayer and God answers prayer in 3 ways: yes, no, later-wait. Maybe God is saying here “wait, in My time”, but unfortunately we don’t want to wait, we want to get ahead of God and do it in our time. Maybe your gripe should be with God!!

    • George Tichy
      11 December 2015 @ 1:55 pm

      Peter Cieslar wrote:

      Your ‘gripe’ should be with the delegates and not with the GC leaders.

      Well, after all the GC’s maneuvers we saw (TOSC, AC, etc.) it would be ludicrous to make the delegates responsible for the fiasco. Yes, they voted on it, but look at the circumstances. The vote in SA was not on WO but rather on the DIVISION’s right to manage ordinations. The delegates were just duped! And then, after that, the GC pretended that the vote was on WO…

      Come on, do they still believe that nobody else but they have some functioning brains?

      • sufferingsunfish
        13 December 2015 @ 7:00 pm

        Would you please describe for our understanding in detail what maneuvers the GC engaged in? Thanks.

  11. PJC
    11 December 2015 @ 1:21 pm

    “What biblical reason can the GC provide for “ordaining” men as ministers of the gospel, while “commissioning” women?”
    Loren, the GC doesn’t have to provide biblical reasons. Their jurisdiction is to uphold the decision of the delegates at the last GC conference that made that decision. Your ‘gripe’ should be with the delegates and not with the GC leaders.

    As I remember there was a lot of prayer done before the vote was taken ….I wonder, did God hear their prayers? If He did why did God answer in the negative? I am a firm believer in prayer and God answers prayer in 3 ways: yes, no, later-wait. Maybe God is saying here “wait, in My time”, but unfortunately we don’t want to wait, we want to get ahead of God and do it in our time. Maybe your gripe should be with God!!

  12. Jack Allen
    11 December 2015 @ 4:57 pm


    The subject of WO is a debatable matter. Sincere views are held on both side, both based on reading scriptures. Each side thinking the other side doesn’t read and understand properly. WO IS A DEBATABLE MATTER.

    WE OUGHT TO OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN. This statement was made in opposition to the historic church leadership strictly held position. The position of the “organized church” was to reject Jesus. The apostles chose to obey their understanding of God’s Word. It was an act of obedience to God and disobedience to the church that officially opposed the will of God.

    In procedures we can agree to submit to the voted policy of the denomination. In DOCTRINE we must be FULLY PERSUADED in our own minds. We have no king but JESUS and it is to Jesus we owe our obedience and allegiance.

  13. Allen Nash
    11 December 2015 @ 5:01 pm


    The Spirit of Christ in our midst will cause us to disagree without making it personal and using harmful words to imply stupidity on the part of other believers who disagree with us on this subject. The borderline and sometimes not so borderline expressions of hatred are not winsome and tend toward division.

    Let church leadership PERSUADE all and all will agree. Church fellowship is based on commonly held UNDERSTANDINGS.

    When this topic comes up again I pray that it may be centered around UNDERSTANDING each other and the WORD.

    No two min. limit should be placed on a delegates opportunity to speak, thus restricting the Holy Spirit to “sound bites.” Limiting speech appears to be a fair thing allowing the largest number to speak, yet the elevated microphones can speak without limit. Let the president speak from a floor mic for two mins to let it appear there is fair play, after having already used the platform mic to claim a position that is clearly understood to be his… Let’s be honest, while being kind to each other.

  14. Nathaniel Moore
    11 December 2015 @ 5:05 pm

    “As I remember there was a lot of prayer done before the vote was taken”. I notice that this is a strategy employed by some churh leaders who want to bulldoze their way to get the kind of decision they want on any matter in church. They pray over the matter, they read some related text from the Bible, they read excerpts from the writings of EG.White, all to impress in the direction they want to get the decision they want. Leaders may succeed in manipulating weak or thoughtless members; but they will not be able to manipulate God or thoughtful minds. So, my friends, if the aim was to impress deligates to secure a certain outcome, leave God out of that. He has given us His words and has given us wisdom to understand and to follow His ways. We should not want Him to give in to our selfish strategies. And we prefer to have our deligates read and understand the scriptures for themselves, so that they will not be swayed by people who have self interest to preserve.
    It is clear that the way Women Ordination was treated and manipulated at the General Conference Session, the intention was to preserve Male Domination, and to keep the women out of “high” office in the organisation.

  15. Charity
    11 December 2015 @ 6:01 pm

    The growth rate was negative; not positive. The number of Pastors is relatively static. The world changes; but HE does not. The strong beacon still draws to HIM; proven in the rest of the world.

    We can all read the Adventist Statistics; actually produced by the areas. The Church voted “no”; anything else is rebellion, non-Adventist. Following ones heart is foolish. Maybe we should follow HIS Will.

    We can all read our BIBLES, IT belongs to the entire Body; HIS Body. To come forward against Sound Doctrine requires proof; none has been provided.

    The attempt by term “diakonos” fails:
    diakonois – (διακόνοις) is a pool of servants.
    diakonoi – (διάκονοι) is a accumulation or set of specific tasked servants (1 Timothy 3:12).
    diakonos – (διάκονος) is a single servant.
    diakonous – (διακόνους) the office or pool (1 Timothy 3:8 and 2 Corinthians 3:6 only).

    And again HE does not discriminate, we do. We are mentally incapable of defining openness, equality or justice; without HIM. We fail at every attempt to bypass or breach HIM. Maybe it is time to reverence HIM instead. We would suggest doing this soon.

    Nathaniel, do you need help doing your job? Are you able to deliver, nurture and teach fields of pastors? Are you able to teach the younger women as commanded in Titus 2? Do you rebuke failures of such as commanded? What exactly can you do or offer HIM? Just trying to put things in perspective of HIS PLAN; outside of the bounds of yours.

    • EM
      12 December 2015 @ 12:25 am

      Why do you think you know God’s plan? Many people in other religions rejected Ellen White because she was a woman. Slavery was not God’s plan. God may not change, but human understanding of Him certainly does. Think of OT stoning, etc. all before Christ came to show what God was like.
      The theme of the whole Bible, written by humans inspired (not transcribed from God)in their own language and cultures, is Jesus Christ and the salvation He has provided us. God is not so petty as to become embroiled in our cultural understandings. We need priorities in our faith journey and God always wants what is for our best good whether we know it or not.

      • EM
        12 December 2015 @ 12:27 am

        The church is not the same as God; we seem to get stuck on that simple truth.

        • Charity
          12 December 2015 @ 3:42 am

          We pray from Ephesians 1:
          17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
          18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
          19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
          20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
          21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
          22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
          23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

          Absolutely, GOD wants what is best for us; HE Sacrificed HIS SON for that. There is, has and will always only be HIM; those chosen are just parts of the Body.

          CHRIST sacrificed for us. For millennia many called have sacrificed for us; just for our ability to make a choice. Our cultural understanding is as children; without appreciation or wisdom of Love. Those without the world and within conviction understand the importance and appreciate helping. These are the simple Truths.

          • William Noel
            12 December 2015 @ 8:20 pm

            There you go again!

            We’ve got all that about Jesus. No questions there. What does that have to do with the topic under discussion?

    • William Noel
      12 December 2015 @ 8:22 pm


      If God doesn’t discriminate, why do you discriminate by wanting to prohibit women from serving as pastors? How is your view not contrary to the character of God?

  16. Steve Tanner
    11 December 2015 @ 7:09 pm

    I think it’s been about 13 or 14 years ago we were at a church in Berlin that had a woman pastor.
    Not sure why the big fuss over this issue. Seems to me there have been women pastors for a long time in some places.

  17. George Tichy
    11 December 2015 @ 7:42 pm

    There is no reason for “fuss” about WO. As long as men are ordained and women are commissioned, of course!

    The main issue will continue being not WO per se, but discrimination of women.

    • sufferingsunfish
      13 December 2015 @ 6:53 pm

      You are so wrong, Tichy, in your comments. I just don’t understand why those who feel so strongly about WO just don’t pool their resources and set up a feminist church.

  18. Charity
    12 December 2015 @ 4:08 am

    Simple solution George; quit discriminating. Stop being addicted to the cause and become part of HIS cause. If you wish to operate in knowledge; look over the failures of and in facts. I would suggest you operate within wisdom though; the simple lack of ability to understand discrimination.

    You discriminate by assuming your conviction is stronger than theirs. You degrade the value of position; to raise fields of pastor and teach others to raise more fields, creating much grater value than men could ever do.

    Maybe we can correctly apply the wisdom of discrimination; George. Can you deliver fields of devout for us? Can you teach them? What can you do? Why do you think you are special? What great gifts do you have to offer the bounds of wisdom; or knowledge for that matter? Have you been granted great wisdom (or knowledge) by HIM for some great calling? Or do you base all of this on your foolish feelings from your heart? Bless your heart.

    Time to grow up and figure out that anything outside the bounds of HIM is ignorance; only the arrogance of rebellious children. HE has an absolutely perfect place for those that are “special”; but a very different place for those that think they are special. The sooner we figure out we are ignorant and “special” in HIS eyes, with nothing to offer ourselves; the better.

    • EM
      12 December 2015 @ 3:18 pm

      Beware what you say–it could be turned around on you just as easily.

      • Charity
        12 December 2015 @ 4:03 pm

        Agreed EM, it is easy to get sucked back into the world.

        I have the strength and conviction of my wife and daughters to help me and would not trade them for the world. I understand that many do not have that privilege though; and I have no idea how they can make it through. I do try to exercise tolerance and patience as much as possible; but I always think of the other wives, daughters and the lost out there.

        I had a young single mother come to me the other day, wanting assurance that the Church would provide sufficient strength and structure to help her and her young son; in absence of a father. She said she had been to many Churches that were nothing more than social clubs.

        We create the world and its many problems, then remove the beacon and help for anyone; and we do that very well. None of this changes or helps anything. We are warned this will happen; but it still does not make it any easier to accept. It is hard to take our hearts out of the world, but I think it impossible to take our hearts out of Love; it hurts much more. I don’t think we were meant to.

    • William Noel
      12 December 2015 @ 8:25 pm


      You do love accusing everyone else of being ignorant about God! How many times have you made that charge? I’m losing count. And I though Satan was the “accuser of the brethren.”

      • Charity
        13 December 2015 @ 2:15 am

        1 Thessalonians 5:
        11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
        12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
        13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
        14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

        But are you not the accuser of the brethren William? Was the vote not “no” and is the Doctrine not Sound? Is there something you do not understand? As others are commanded and obligated by HIM to speak, exhort and rebuke with all authority; you keep raising your head?

        Titus 3:
        9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
        10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
        11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

        Why are you so rebellious child; then attempt to lead others down your rat hole? Why are you unable to explain any of this? What is your problem; was HIS Sacrifice of Blood in pain not enough for you? What more do you want? We are soon running out of the privilege of tolerance and patients; nearing second admonition, you condemn yourself. As those within Love are obligated to warn you.

        • William Noel
          13 December 2015 @ 5:23 am


          Even Satan used scripture when he tempted Jesus. So, exactly how am I being a “rebellious child?” How am I disregarding His sacrifice? You keep making the accusation but never explaining yourself. What more do I want? You to explain what it is others are doing that you think is so wrong. It is time for you to put up, or shut up!

  19. George Tichy
    12 December 2015 @ 8:24 am

    This is not going to work!
    Trying to detour from the discrimination of women in our Denomination by focusing on ME? Are you kidding us all? What kind of distraction is this?

    • Charity
      12 December 2015 @ 3:39 pm

      But George, you are the one discriminating. The vast majority of women want nothing to do with what you are selling. You do not have more conviction, intelligence or wisdom than any of them? I will answer that for you; “no”.

      You create imaginary causes in your head, just so you can get your next fix from the addiction of the cause; any cause. You are out of causes and serve no purpose for HIM. Don’t feel bad; your not alone.

      • George Tichy
        13 December 2015 @ 7:57 am


        You wrote, “But George, you are the one discriminating. The vast majority of women…”

        1) As long as you keep trying to make the issue about me, I don’t see a point in exchanging further opinions with you.

        2) I hope you will produce some sources, stats, or so to prove what you said about “the majority of women.” And, even if that is true (which I doubt) it would not be a justification to perpetuate something that is as immoral as discrimination against any human being. Remember that “the majority” once believed that slavery was OK…

  20. Ervin Taylor
    12 December 2015 @ 9:49 am

    May I suggest that Charity is a mystic following the Way of St. Teresa of Avila and some of the rest of us are following the Way of the two St.Thomas’–the apostle and Aquinas. We use words differently and think along different lines.

    • Charity
      12 December 2015 @ 2:25 pm

      The wisdom provide St. Teresa and St Thomas, while for different callings; all lead to the same path. Both surrendered to HIM, while many here still hold to the world; accomplishing nothing.

      Erv, you wish to move into double truths? You would contend the separation of reason and Faith; but remember how St Thomas felt about philosophers? Why are such not complementary? Did St. Thomas not state “that for the knowledge of any truth whatsoever man needs divine help, that the intellect may be moved by God to its act.”? Did the Summa Theologica not cover this?

      Do you contend this issue within the cardinal virtues? Is it prudence, fortitude, justice or maybe temperance? How do you roll that into Faith, Hope or Charity; with the first two relying on things to come and Charity is to feed, clothe or educate the living? How does this fit within HIS precedence?

      The Church has dealt with such for millennia, century after century the same common plea; the sacrifice of CHRIST was not enough and we want more. You offer nothing new; what has will be again. Nothing changes but the names. We should be sufficient in that the names be written in the Book?

      If you wish to set an example in instruction to our children; should we not expect more? Should we not expect at least a simple understanding of the terms, definitions and concepts; if not the wisdom?

      • Ervin Taylor
        13 December 2015 @ 10:54 am

        I thank Charity for her interesting response which I only partly understand. May I say that I would still suggest that St. Teresa and St. Thomas Aquinas would have had a very hard time understanding each other. Mystics and intellectuals in the Christian tradition in the modern world have a very hard time communicating because, among other things, they have very different personalities and thus hold to very different criteria for what is relevant and important.

  21. Roger Metzger
    12 December 2015 @ 11:38 am


    I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: Any discussion about the ordination of women is premature until SdAs understand what “ordination” is and what it is not. Ordination in the biblical sense is affirmation by fellow believers that the Lord has ALREADY bestowed spiritual authority and other gifts specific to an office on a candidate for a specific office. The laying on of hands does not CONFER authority.

    Let’s look at the statement quoted in the above article. “…We regard ourselves as a loyal part of the World Church….”

    What is the “World Church”?

    For most of my 71 years, I never saw that phrase in print. The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists is only that–a conference. It is not the church. Believers are the church.

    My wife and I have the same opinion on the subject of women’s ordination that we had three decades ago but any discussion of the subject is pointless among people who don’t know what the church is and what ordination is.

    Is it appropriate for SdA conferences to have some standards with regard to who may and who may not hold ministerial credentials?

    Yes. But here is a suggestion (to help get this discussion off of dead center): Those standards should pertain to what a person paid from tithe funds may NOT teach while he is thus remunerated. (Sunday sacredness and the natural immortality of the soul, for example.)

    • George Tichy
      13 December 2015 @ 7:51 am


      Let’s not make the case about ordination a mystery or a difficult thing to understand. We all know enough about the issue to be aware that it’s been complicated by those who discriminate against women, only to perpetuate the discrimination. And this GC has been maneuvering this issue in a very disgusting way.

      Those who already watched (AU Professor) Dr. Darius Jankiewicz’s videos on the issue can’t allege ignorance. And those who didn’t should watch them, unless they prefer to stay ignorant on it for obvious reasons. They can be found here:

      If after watching these videos one chooses to stay in an uneducated “ignoramus state,” … well…, this is certainly an option, a personal preference, a choice…

      Regarding the term “World Church,” yes we didn’t hear about it in the past. It seems that some genius (or genie?) came up with it to help the manipulation process so that the GC would not be blamed for it’s own actions. “Oh,… this is the will of the ‘world church'” – look how helpful this easy way out is, and how often it is used!

    • William Noel
      13 December 2015 @ 5:10 pm


      Your conclusions from the study of scripture appears to match mine. Nowhere do I find the empowerment of the Holy Spirit conferring authority, but responsibility for using the power they have been given in the ways God desires. The laying-on of hands is a conveyance of greater Holy Spirit empowerment in the same manner as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

  22. danny bell
    12 December 2015 @ 8:04 pm

    “We regard ourselves as a loyal part of the World Church” …….lol….

  23. danny bell
    12 December 2015 @ 8:09 pm

    Anyone else having trouble with posts not appearing straight away?

    • William Noel
      13 December 2015 @ 5:25 am

      Me, too.

    • George Tichy
      13 December 2015 @ 7:29 am

      Yes, I have the impression that the posts are being “checked out” before being approved for “appearance to the public.” It mah be part of the ACA*….

      *ACA = Approval Consultation Action… lol

  24. Monte Sahlin
    13 December 2015 @ 8:14 am

    Comments are appearing after a delay of up to 60 seconds simply due to the volume of readership on the AT Web site. No comments in the News area are being held for moderation. We are seeking to raise funds to improve the speed of the Web platform.

    But, it is interesting that the fear of moderation comes up among these comments. It is clear to me that some of the comment writers here are pushing the boundaries of what is permitted. Please cool it. It is OK to express views, but not to attack others, make comments about their faith or make fun of them, or use terms like “rat hole” to describe the position of others. I am getting a number of complaints from readers.

    If you cannot disagree in a temperate, impersonal manner, then clearly you are not contending for Christ’s truth. Another spirit is fueling your feelings.

    Monte Sahlin, CEO, Adventist Today

  25. George Tichy
    13 December 2015 @ 8:53 am

    Feedback to Monte Sahlin:

    Actually, it’s taking more than 60 seconds. Some have taken up to over 10 minutes, this is why I made a comment of possible “:verification” before posting. Not that I have anything against such practice, but it’s good also to know that this is not the case.
    Thanks for all you do and for providing such a great site for discussion of Church issues in an environment of freedom.

    • George Tichy
      13 December 2015 @ 8:56 am

      Correction: My “10 minutes” was not accurate, now that I see that the site works a little bit different than I was perceiving before.

  26. Nathaniel Moore
    13 December 2015 @ 12:27 pm

    Hi Charity,
    On December,11th @6;01pm, you asked me,”Nathaniel, do you need help doing your job? My reply is, yes, I do need help. But do you know what my most urgent job is? It is to understand your comments. I must confess that many times I read and reread your comments,and find it very difficult to follow your exposition. Did someone say you are a mystic? I believe my problem springs from my culture; but I confess that I am often mystified by the quality of your esoterics.

    Kindly note that delegates to the GC sessions can err, and the leaders can err too; and it is clear that in the way they have managed the voting on the WO fiasco, they have got it wrong this time. The results of the blunder are beginning to be seen and felt around the world. The case we are looking at now is just one, and there are many to follow. To act with wisdom is better than following blind prescriptions.

  27. Elaine Nelson
    13 December 2015 @ 12:41 pm

    Nathaniel, not only you are unable to understand Charity’s writings, neither Ervin nor I can make heads or tails of the comments. When someone communicates so obtusely, it indicates similar thought processes.

    As a lover of correct English usage, any high school or college English teacher would return such writing with suggestions to write for all readers to understand.
    Speaking in an unknown tongue is often called “religious verbosity”–sounding spiritual but without substance.

    • George Tichy
      13 December 2015 @ 9:44 pm

      Elaine and Nathaniel,
      I am glad you wrote about that issue. I thought that I was having difficulty understanding Charity’s thinking process and comments because English is not my primary language. You know, maybe I was missing some subtleties that one can miss even being 26 years in the US.
      Well, anyway, I am relieved now… 🙂

  28. Roger Metzger
    15 December 2015 @ 1:30 am


    I, too, have difficulty understanding some of your posts.

    If it is any consolation, people sometimes say the same think about my posts.