Adventists in Scandinavia Discontinue Ordination for All Pastors
September 21, 2015: The Adventist national denominational organizations in parts of Europe have decided to discontinue the practice of clergy ordination altogether, in the wake of the vote against ordaining women pastors at the General Conference (GC) Session in July. Yesterday (September 20) the executive committee of the Norwegian Union Conference took this step. The Danish Union Conference has made a similar decision, and the Swedish Union Conference will soon have a meeting to consider the decision.
The Executive Committee of the Norwegian Union
The governing body of the denomination in Norway voted to discontinue the practices of ordination and commissioning, and replace them with a simple prayer service when a pastor is employed. The service that will be identical for both men and women employed as pastors.
This decision followed careful deliberation by the leaders of the union conference and its local conferences. Awaiting the July vote by GC delegates, the Norwegian Union Conference has not ordained any clergy since 2012, but instead commissioned both men and women called to pastoral ministry. Several of the pastors ordained in past years had requested that their credentials be changed from ordained minister to commissioned minister.
The Theology of Ordination Study Committee (TOSC) “consensus statement emphasized the importance that our Adventist understanding of ordination be biblical,” said Pastor Reidar Kvinge, president of the Norwegian Union Conference. “The monumental 871-page report of Trans-European Division’s BRI [Biblical Research Institute] study committee and our own studies have convinced us that the church’s present practice does not conform to the New Testament examples. We see God’s guidance in the San Antonio vote. A ‘yes’ would easily have overshadowed the underlying theological concerns our five year study process has unveiled. With the present unrest, however, our church still has an historic opportunity to make its practice more biblical.”
The statement voted by the Norwegian Union (see full text) argues that the Adventist debate about ordination has focused more on power, position and authority than on humble self-giving service. “The term ordination is not even found in the Bible. Furthermore, the words ‘ordained’ and ‘commissioned’ have come to signify a spiritual hierarchy that is foreign to the thinking of the New Testament church. This is why we will take a time-out from using those categories,” says Kvinge. “We will have two groups of pastors: intern pastors and pastors. And they will both be set aside for their task with a simple prayer session, and given the necessary authorization to function in their respective roles.”
The voted document, which calls the world church to revisit the recommendations given in the Trans-European Division’s Biblical Research Committee’s report to TOSC, also states: “Until a classification of pastors is established—a classification without a distinction based on a fundamental discrimination against female pastors—the Norwegian Union Conference will not report employed pastors who are serving in our area to the SDA Yearbook.”
“We do this to eliminate the possibility that our category of ‘pastor’ is simply converted to ‘commissioned’ or ‘ordained’, said Kvinge. “We want the world church to know that we no longer use these distinctions, because they carry connotations of a spiritual hierarchy.”
The Danish Union and Swedish Union have also released statements about their decisions with regard to ordination.
Congratulations to our colleagues in ministry from Scandanavia. You have given us a profile in courage that has the potential to offer a fundamental alternative to the status-quo of administrative discrimination in our ministerial ranks. Respect matters! It is all we really want in life, in our ministry, regardless of gender or culture: Having the respect form our peers is said to make us healthier in the long term. Seven decades worth of studies show we crave being valued by others. The University of California found social standing makes you healthier After examining 70 years’ worth of studies, they concluded that we crave being valued by others regardless of our gender or culture, even if we might not be aware of it. The team at the University of California, Berkeley, said having a respect from our peers makes us healthier in the long-term, claiming the strongest test for their hypothesis was whether low status makes us ill. Our female pastors need our support and our respect as well.
Researchers showed those treated unfairly in peer groups or workplaces suffer more from depression and chronic anxiety and cardiovascular disease. In the journal Psychological Bulletin, Professor Cameron Anderson said: ‘Whenever you don’t feel valued by others it hurts. He defined respect to distinguish it from power and wealth. Respect as admiration, voluntary deference by others and social value or prestige, is important.
Will this prevent Norwegian pastors from becoming Conference Presidents?
Not according to current GC policy. There is a way around this. Just call them First Pastor, Lead Pastor, or Chairperson (male/female) etc. Viking boldness and creativity will surely find the solution in due course.
I have been informed by someone from Norway that their bylaws have never required ordination for the role of president so this is a non-issue for them. It obviously would be an issue in some other unions.
Classic dummy spit…..”if we cant ordain women, then we wont ordain at all”…childish….
Or, maybe, Spirit led.
Childish?
In my opinion it is maturity in being able to recognize the absurdity of practicing discrimination against women – and in a Church!!! – in a moment in history when this kind of abuse should no longer exist. But, still more mind boggling is the fact that this social anomaly it is being perpetuated by religious people. What a great testimony of faith, eh???
KJV Titus 1
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Qualifications of Bishops
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
This text refers to elders as well as bishops. A bishop is very similar to a pastor.
KJV Titus 1
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Qualifications of Bishops
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
This text refers to elders as well as bishops. A bishop is very similar to a pastor. The husband of one wife. What’s the problem?
It’s obvious you don’t understand “discrimination”. Was it discrimination against Satan because God didn’t let him join in Creation like Christ? Is it discrimination that God created women to have babies and I can’t as a man? Was it discrimination that Korah, Dathan, etc… couldn’t make decisions as Moses did? You truly lack discernment in this matter. You are supporting the WORLDS definition of equality and not God’s. This is just outright rebellion by leadership in the church. If they can’t get their way, they try to weasle around it.
God bless you for this comment or insight. My heart truly bleeds on account of this discord the enemy has sown. Its simply rebellion! Nevertheless, the wheat and tares are to grow along till harvest. Lord have mercy.
There are no requirements that Unions ordain, period.
To refrain from doing something is not breaking any rules as the church policy gives unions the privilege to ordain, but never a requirement.
We can hope that other conferences will follow their example. Does anyone believe that the G.C. would remove unions from their family?
When families are treated as poor stepchildren there is little benefit from the family connection.
All it needs now is for other unions to follow suit and before you know it we would have recaptured the biblical teaching of the priesthood of all believers and given the world a prime example of what equality and unity in diversity is all about.
Brilliant decisions for upholding Biblical principles & Adventist Fundamental Beliefs.
Very Christ-like response. They aren’t pushing from rebellion against the GC’s decision but respecting it, whilst also staying true to their convictions. They are adopting the approach of the slave to this contentious issue, of service, not that of power.
BRAVO and KUDOS,
to our Scandinavian brethren for this astute answer to the WO issue.
Their shrewd move cleverly side steps the Headship Dogma.
Jim Hamstra, in a superb analysis of the ordination issue, in other posts on AT, has eloquently articulated that non-ordained pastors, are not able to climb the rungs to administrative levels at Divisions or the GC.
A “glass ceiling “, preventing promotions, was the ultimate objective in denying women ordination.
My hope is that other church entities will follow this brilliant move, but I worry that
“commissioned” pastors will be trapped, with no hope for promotion nor advancement.
The compelling question:
Why is EGW exempted from Paul’s texts that are cited to deny WO?
In countless churches and campmeetings, EGW’s volubility over many decades and continents was in direct conflict with Pauline pronouncements, for women to “be silent”.
In vehement denunciations, now collated in TESTIMONIES TO THE CHURCH, EGW ruined many male reputations.
Her few “testimonies” to women, were to mothers, warning them of what their sons were doing (masturbating).
From pubescent boys to prominent professionals, she held enormous “authority” over Adventist males of her era. They quaked on receipt of a letter from her.
She defied Paul’s precept: “no authority over men”
If Pauline texts do not apply to ALL women, including EGW, the Headship Dogma IMPLODES.
May the Vikings be victorious!
“Jim Hamstra, in a superb analysis of the ordination issue, in other posts on AT, has eloquently articulated that non-ordained pastors, are not able to climb the rungs to administrative levels at Divisions or the GC.
A “glass ceiling “, preventing promotions, was the ultimate objective in denying women ordination.”
Whether or not the “glass ceiling” for women ins SDA ecclesiastical roles is the ultimate objective or not, it is certainly a consequence of withholding ordination from women. For example, very few women are ex officio members of GC and Division Executive Committees. Ditto for GC Session Delegates.
PS – Thanks for your kudos – your check is in the mail 8-).
Deus concedeu a mulher o privilegio de ser mae,o ao hmem o sacerdócio,quando ele é chamado por Deus para isso,ri
E o que voce poderia comentar sobre quando uma mulher é chamada por Deus para o pastorado? Que direito tem os homens (em geral machistas) de bloquear o processo?
KJVTitus 1
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Qualifications of Bishops
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Husband of one wife is the biblical criteria for pastors elders bishops.
You have all lost the plot.
So true. The world is leading the church. Where is the loud cry of the 3 Angeles messages in your communities. Taking your nose out of controlled mainstream media in the USA, you’d know– we are well into end times. Strange as it seems, Putkin is holding back in a manner that seems to allowing more time. If you/I are not living differently from what we were a year ago– heaven help us…
The overwhelming dominance off Ellen Whie in the life of the SDA church, severely TRUMPS the notion of male headship. Not only is there silence from the Bible, there is deafening silence from the bearded barons who were the objects of her outings. Some off these male contemporaries were brilliant scholars and debators, yet they have no word to say in opposition to the leadership role of women in church life— Kellogg, Canright, Jones, Waggoner, Daniels-. The list is very long. It is no secret that EGW ruled in the board room and with her pen. Yet, there was no study groups, task forces, or committee sessions to determine God’s will regarding women’s’ ordination. On the contrary, EGW was issued ordination papers in 1871. It is no doubt that women became very empowered by the presence and witness of EGW– some have aspired to become the president of the General Conference.
KJV Titus 1
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Qualifications of Bishops
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
This text refers to elders as well as bishops. A bishop is very similar to a pastor. The husband of one wife. What’s the problem?
Whao !I am in Awe at this brilliant idea from Brilliant Christians.Thank you for bring rest to a wery soul.
Yes, it is brilliant. And so simple! It reminds me the Columbus’ egg…
https://www.google.com/search?q=columbus+egg&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS590US592&hl=en-US&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEIQ7AlqFQoTCN7rxpaomMgCFcjPgAodlpMDOw&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=IRMwGFV-_U64OM%3A
They have given us a courageous example that I wish others would follow.
The last time I looked at a conference pay scale (many years ago) there was a pay difference between commissioned and ordained ministers. Does that difference still exist? If so, how many conferences would be willing to adjust their policy in that regard?
William, in the NAD there is no difference in the pay scale for commissioned and ordained ministers. That was abolished after the 1995 GC Session refused the request of the NAD. A special commission went through all policies and deleted everything that indicated a difference between ordained and commissioned ministers except one item (who can organize a new congregation, a role almost always played by a conference officer). I was part of the NAD officer group at the time and personally observed this.
Apparently this difference in pay scale between ordained and unordained pastors still remains in many other parts of the world.
In Latin America there is reported to be a huge backlog of pastors awaiting ordination, for many years after they would be ordained in North America. I suspect that one reason for this is that the conferences save money by not paying them as well.
Those progressive, equality-minded Scandinavians!
Not only in Adventism, but in their own Lutheran churches, they PIONEERED in equality for women.
The state churches of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland and Iceland have been ordaining women, starting in 1960. In 2013 they appointed a women as ARCHBISHOP of Uppsala Cathedral.
Meanwhile, only one of several branches of the Lutheran church in USA, the Evangelical Lutheran church, has ordained women since 1970. They too, appointed a female archbishop in 2014.
The Episcopal church in North America, appointed Dr Katherine Schori, to lead their church and as Archbishop of Washington National Cathedral, in 2006.
The other American church co-founded by a woman, Catherine Booth, the SALVATION ARMY, has ordained women since its inception in 1934. They have also had a female archbishop— they called her “GENERAL”.
The Jehovah ‘s Witnesses consider that public baptism immediately qualifies both male and female members as ordained ministers. The majority of Witnesses, preaching door to door are female.
The Presbyterian church USA began ordaining women in 1956 and since 2001 the numbers of men and women pastors are almost equal!
The United Methodist church has also ordained women since 1956, with currently many senior women pastors and administrators.
Adventism currently mired in medieval MUD, needs to jettison the term “ordination”.
“CONSECRATION ” is more potent than “COMMISION”
And now the Lutheran churches are dying….
.. perhaps because traditional churches too often fail to remain relevant in peoples lives? It is a great irony that many societies have in many ways become more inclusive while at the same time religions traditionally associated with those societies have not – and in some cases have reacted by becoming even more exclusive.
KJV Titus 15 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:Qualifications of Bishops6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.This text refers to elders as well as bishops. A bishop is very similar to a pastor.
The husband of one wife. What’s the problem?
Progressive but unbiblical.
A very inspired solution and I applaud Norway’s leadership! Thank you Norway and Denmark and probably Sweden. I hope others have your courage. I wouldn’t be surprised if Holland follows this solution.
This is just another act of rebellion from those who don’t get their way. Seems childish!_”if we can’t have our way and have ordained female pastors then we won’t ordain men either!!! Sounds like little children – “if I can’t have my way, I won’t play with you” This is just another way of putting in female pastors regardless of the General Conference vote. It’s interesting to note, we put all this energy into trying to get females ordained then when we can’t get our way, all of a sudden ordination is not important! In other words if ordination was important before this vote why is it not important now after the vote? Which means it was all a scandalous issue in the first place! Just think of all the papers that were written in favor of female ordination and all the biblical research and arguments given in favor of women’s ordination. I guess all this research just all went up in smoke because ordination isn’t important in the first place. Just think of how many souls could have been won with the time money and energy that has been wasted on this issue. People get so issue oriented rather than mission oriented and Satan wins in the end. How many expect to hear the words of Jesus when he comes, “well done good and faithful servant”?
Nothing went up in smoke, Gardell. The studies only revealed that there is no definitive prohibition to ordaining women, and the studies showed we don’t follow a biblical model of ordination (in a lot of ways we should have never done the studies because studies have been done before and ended up in the same hopeless non consensus). Hence, the vote was a waste of time and money in SA. It should have never been held, but the purpose was to bring rebellious unions back to their senses through a GC power move. It didn’t work, and now we have this brilliant move by Scandinavia thwarting the power move by the GC.
Since our ordination process is mere tradition, since our Working Policy is incongruent within itself on this issue, this really is the only way to go to solve the disagreement. We have no theological consensus on WO, cultural divides divide us, and since the poll vote only revealed that a slight majority still can’t accept other parts of the field to ordain women pastors this really is a great solution.
I don’t think you are seeing the point and the justice in such a decision.
Gardell…well said!
I don’t understand how a union conference moves from being on high octane for ordination and then chooses to dismiss it since divisions were not given their way to ordain women as Pastors. There is so much knit picking. The argument is the word ordained is not in the bible…ok fine…you want to go down that road…then let’s do it. The word bible is not found in the bible…so let us stop calling it the bible and call it the word of God.
The words investigative judgement is not found in the bible so let’s toss that out as well.
While we are on that…no where does it say thou shall not smoke…so every one feel free to light up and puff away.
Where will this end if we are knit picking to substantiate erroneous positions.
The church at a duly called conference of delegates from the world church took a vote…why not respect the vote…why turn every which way to look for loop holes.
Truly we need a revival and reformation.
I had totally confused with this posts and comments,I thought to call my Southern Tanzania Union Mission to ask him because he attended the SA meeting ,I appointed to be there as a delegate voter but i failed.
Thanks for your reasonable thoughts.Jesus gives us power to see things for the church and put the system of running the work of advancement and growth of the church and prepare people for the Kingdom of GOD.
Even if our theme logical and the basic fundamental of our church in evangelical mission is to let the bible alone lead us.
The church has been here since 1844 and undergo pastors ordination,and we used to value it and no where reported discrimination among pastors,We saw ordination and non ordination pastors worked together for the call.
My brethren brothers in Jesus Christ let us not divided by this issue of women ordination.We have a lot to do for salvation of people and prepare them for God’s Kingdom.Behold Jesus is coming soon.
Perhaps what neither you nor Gardell are understanding is that the issue for these unions is equality for men and women in ministry, not just ordination. I believe these unions, in the NAD and Europe, would say that they are taking steps that would make male and female pastors equal, one group by advancing ordination to those who haven’t received it, the other by doing away with the category entirely. What they object to, if you read the statements, is the power structure implied by ordination. In a sense, the Scandinavian unions are more directly addressing the power structure problem by saying that God does not bestow titles for advancing a hierarchy.
My own feeling is that a hierarchical power structure isn’t defensible from a Biblical point of view, that we inherited it from Roman Catholicism rather than finding it in the Bible.
That is my view as well. There is no ordination in the Bible as we practice it, only the gift and baptism of the Holy Spirit, things that are totally apart from human power.
If you read Gardell’s comment carefully, he is objecting to women pastors, ordained or otherwise.
I think he DOES understand what is happening in Scandinavia and he is opposed to it.
As far as I understand, Norway is not breeching the GC working policy, since they are not ordaining anyone. There is nothing in the working policy that would force ordination on anyone.
God bless you for this truth. We just need to be praying for all the rebellion folks.
Gardell, it is entirely mission oriented. In those countries if the Adventist Church sticks to discrimination against women, then no one will listen to our message. Our theologians have consistently said that this is not an issue (like the Sabbath) that requires that we stick to it under such conditions. Male headship is not one of the doctrines of our Church.
“Maybe you can tell us why the cackles of children such as yourself and others on the AT board are above above approach? Who died and made you god; above rebuke?”
This is an inappropriate personal attack and a direct violation of the Guidelines for Comments. It is also a violation of the principles set forth in the Bible for discussion between fellow believers. This is not the Spirit of Christ but of Satan.
In reality it is your own “adult” comment that reflects an immature attitude towards others. My wife teaches her Kindergarten students not to talk this way to one another.
If I were the moderator of this web site I would remove this comment.
“This is just another way of putting in female pastors regardless of the General Conference vote.”
Nothing about this vote prohibits women serving as pastors. That has been an approved practice for many years.
The vote was about the question of permitting Divisions to authorize ordination of women pastors.
This question will not go away as long as people insist on extending the vote to cover things it did not cover, and then accusing others of “rebellion”.
Arguably your complaint about women serving as pastors is every bit as much “rebellion” against a long-standing policy. Do your realize there were more women serving as SDA pastors in 1900 than in 1950?
I agree with brother Blake. This is devious scheme to destroy the concept of priest established long time ago. Ordination is a ceremony to set apart the individual to live a respected life of leadership. This is just another way Satan is distracting the church from finishing the work and creating division in the church.
Just another worldly influence in our faith.
So, are you disputing Paul’s declaration in Hebrews that Jesus in his role as our High Priest changed the priestly system and did away with it? Or, are you saying Jesus only partly did away with it? Why would you want to keep any part of what God did away with?
Why do we spend time on this?
We are spending time on this
Whilst reading the chapter God’s Last Day Church…I came across two statements that are quite fitting.
‘As we near the final crisis, instead of feeling that there is less need of order and harmony of action, we should be more systematic than heretofore.—Selected Messages 3:26 (1892)’
‘I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time.—Selected Messages 2:397 (1908)’
These quotes speak for themselves.
Please forgive me for not having the same preconception in mind that you had when you posted those quotes because I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
This is very sad indeed. This is just another way of skirting the decision by the world church. The fact that there has been no conclusive evidence for women’s ordination is evidence itself of its invalidity.
Really? I believe your statement is logically a fallacy. Arguments from silence are not arguments at all, not for nor against something. You should the 871-page TED document to know what Norwegians thinks of this biblically speaking.
By your line of reasoning, the fact that there is no conclusive evidence for Ordination in the Bible is evidence itself of its invalidity.
Yep, this whole argument is over a custom of humans. The term “ordination” did not enter the Christian vocabulary until the Second Century AD, along with Sunday as the “Lord’s Day” and other practices that Seventh-Day Adventists rightly eschew. It is a vestige of Sacramentalism. Only the Ordained can administer the Sacraments. Only those in the line of Apostolic Succession can Ordain.
I am not saying that Ordination is wrong, but that to argue for or against it from the Bible is specious. For example, Philip the Deacon baptized people, but in the SDA church Deacons are not allowed to baptize, only Elders. This is a custom, not necessarily wrong, but not supported by Scripture.
Disclaimer – I did attend and approve of the ordination of my father and decades later of my son.
In the NT it is the local congregation who lay hands on those who have been called by the Holy Spirit.
In the Sacramental system it is the Bishops who lay hands on those to be ordained.
Which custom does your church follow?
In vain do you worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (but not the commandments of women 😎
I never described Presbyters as Bishops
Presbyters were Elders. Episkopos or Bishops or Overseers came later. Deacons preceded both. Apostles preceded all three.
As the church grew, more layers were added to the hierarchy. That I will not deny. But in the NT there are not spiritual or sacramental prerogatives reserved for the “higher” layers. The Charisms or Gifts of the Spirit were spread across all layers of the hierarchy. They were not exclusively reserved for only the “higher” leaders.
Again, I do not object to the practice of Ordination. I do object to claiming that it is Commandment of God found in the Bible.
All of the arguments on both sides are over analogies with customs found in various parts of the Bible. Why? Because there is NO commandment to “ordain” found in the Greek or Hebrew (or smattering of Aramaic).
I know that the KJV uses the word “ordain” but as I have previously written this goes back to Wyckliffe (himself an ordained priest) who translated a phrase as “ordain priests”. A literal translation is “establish elders”. This is no more a command to “ordain elders” than it is a commend to “establish priests”.
You can wrap your claims in the “mantle of Scripture” but in reality they are wrapped in the “mantle of Tradition”. The same mantle wherein is wrapped Sunday sacredness. Both are commandments of Men (and not of Women 8-). What hath “male headship” wrought?
So you are the Protectors of Tradition rather than of Scripture.
I was referring to Titus 1:5.
If you are going to insist that only Bishops or Overseers can appoint Elders, then we should abolish church elections for Elders. In the Bible there is no distinction between Local Elders and Ordained Pastors. They are the same thing.
We have added this distinction more recently.
Again, I am not saying we should not have these distinctions, only that they are not found in the Bible.
Every church has a mixture of commandments of God and customs instituted by men (or in the case of the SDA church some customs instituted by a woman 8-). That is not necessarily bad.
What is bad is when we conflate the two.
All of the same texts your trot-out affirming “male headship” and denying ordination to women, are the very same texts that have been used by my Calvinist relatives, who affirm “male headship”, to “prove” that the SDA church is apostate because we hold Ellen White in a position of spiritual authority and use her writings to teach men.
Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit Ellen “broke” many of the “rules” you have quoted from the Bible. Either she was a spiritual deceiver, or you are mis-applying what Paul wrote.
There was no “decision by the world church” There was a motion, but it did not pass, therefor no action was taken. There was no action taken to authorize ordaining left handed people, so conferences are free to continue ordaining them.
Praise God for our leaders in Scandinavia!
I respect your Christian humility and your desire to follow New Testament Christianity. I pray that our world church will follow this example.
Let’s not think that this has to be a decision by a conference. Any minister can turn in their credentials … burn their draft card if you will for those who remember the 60’s in the U.S.of A.
As I understand, ministers are here and there already individually turning in their credentials in good conscience, while retaining their employment with the church. May their tribe increase.
Can someone please explain to me when does the authority of the female pastor ceases, if at all, when she goes home to her husband, the home leader, or did those standards change with the times as well?
In a good marriage, no one is the sole authority. Both partners have a loving relationship and decide on what and by whom decisions are made. Neither is the authoritarian head.
So you are claiming that the 50% divorce rate (your numbers not mine) is due primarily to the failure of wives to obey their husbands?
More than that – I would attribute a failure to practice true Christian love within the home, as admonished in the passages you cited.
How many husbands are willing to empty themselves of their prerogatives, on behalf of their wives and children?
Submit yourselves one to another. This is not the same as compelling others to submit to you.
That would be a failure to teach in Titus 2. That obligation falls to the older women; the same ones you want to assign another job. Why do you not rebuke such failures instead. Why do you leave this job to others?
Could this be because you fail at your job and want help?
Actually I want to open the job of Pastor to whomever God calls, men and women, older and younger.
Any age limit on ordaining someone as an Elder should apply equally to both genders. I was ordained as an Elder at the age of 27, before I had any children. At the time I was the youngest “elder” in the largest church in that conference.
Let no man despise your youth.
Jim,
Recently I was wisely cautioned to not waste my time debating the comments of those who will not be persuaded and who know only how to argue and condemn with “Protectors” being the latest example. It seems recently we have had a series of such individuals and I see you falling into their trap as did I. I respect your insights and the wisdom of your experience so I hope you will choose to ignore them and expend your words where discussion is more profitable.
William,
There is certainly some wisdom in what you say. I know that this person, who has posted under several pseudonyms and seems to delight in ranting and personal slurs, will never be convinced. I have no such illusions.
If you read carefully the Gospels, there is at least once where Jesus says that He had publicly prayed a prayer for the benefit of those others who could see and hear what was happening.
It is for the anonymous “others” who read but seldom if ever comment, that I take the trouble to respond to some of these rants. Mostly I try to patiently present the Bible (and occasionally Ellen) facts as I understand them, and ignore the slurs directed at myself.
Whether or not I have the wisdom to break-off when I have made my point, I do not always know. That is matter of prayer for me.
Cheers
Jim,
I understand. I, too, have recently continued for a time contending with some of the stone-throwers before deciding to break-off. We each get to that point of null results at our own pace.
May God continue blessing you richly!
Adult you forgot to list the verses that say that a pastor/priest must be jewish, a relative of levi, circumcised, and have been married only once. It’s ‘plain’ reading in all my Bibles.
Not to mention that Priests are required to wear linen undergarments. Not wool or cotton or silk or synthetics. Not briefs, only boxers that cover the thigh with no fly. No colors but white only.
Before anyone stands-up to preach in your church, be sure to inspect their underwear 8-).
And rightly one could ask when does the authority of a male pastor cease? And what does this authority encompass? My current pastor is a single man in his 40s. Does he exercise authority in my home?
The answer is NO. But I certainly respect his leadership responsibility in the church.
If you want a church where the Bishops exercise authority in other men’s homes then you might consider the Fundamentalist offshoot of the LDS church. And as “Protectors of the Faith”, they also practice “Biblical polygamy”, one of the prerogatives of “male headship” as instituted by the “patriarchal system” that was “ordained of God” along with their “male priesthood”.
Living in Norway I find it somewhat puzzling that the main argument of the Norwegian Union on WO revolves around equality, while at the same time they have not been able to conduct a balanced presentation of the issue at hand (WO) in official sda magazines and media during the last 1-2 years.
As far as I have observed I have never witnessed a more one-sided presentation where only one of the three main views has been properly presented.
One thing that seems to me to be missing in this discussion is the desire of these unions to find a way not to violate their consciences in this matter. I am happy that they found a way, even though it will be a sacrifice for them.
The SDA church is simply going deeper and deeper into apostasy. Ordination is biblical and it is based on male headship. Like America’s rejection of the constitution in the near future, Adventism has rejected the bible for political expediency and cultural patronization. It is not likely the SDA church can or will “finish the work” that God ordained it to do. You can not abandon the bible and think you will some how “finish the work”.
@ Bill Ordination IS NOT Biblical, nor is male headship. Laying on of hands is Biblical!!! God calls as His Spirit deems worthy of ministry in each locale both male and female. Period. God calls!! The church recognizes by the fruits of the one called in their work. That recognition is NOT Ordination. It is laying on of hands and that laying on of hands is local, not worldwide. All ministry is local.
America has already abandoned the constitution. Laodecia never finished any work the last I read of in the book of Revelation. It is the last church I believe before the Parousia…at least the last time I looked.
Maybe we will have a SDA president presiding over the 2nd beast of Revelation. The RC church and the SDA church in cahoots just imagine!!!
Its a matter of standards.Male headship is Biblical which in effect backs men ordination. A woman can work for the church even if she is not ordained as a Pastor. Ellen White worked immensely for the church despite everything. As all the apostles were men which headed the church of God, likewise should the church do same. There should be one standard no deviations.
This WO thing can lead to divisions but we all need to agree and respect GC decision. Still the SDA church shall stand strong as firm as the Lords truth still stands as a rock.
There’s no need to agree with or to respect such a stupid decision.
“Still the SDA church shall stand strong as firm as the Lords truth still stands as a rock.”
God has never been shackled by any means of grace or any church. If the Jews rejection of Christ, and the apostasy of the early church don’t teach us something, we are surely doomed to failure.
God’s truth will triumph. SDA church, or no SDA church. At the present time, the SDA church is in the “self destruct” mode with little or no evidence of any viable recovery. But this will not keep God from finding a people who will defend the faith, SDA church, or not.
True! And, what ever happened with the SDA logo of three angels flying in the midst of heaven? Was this a compromise with the not offending Sunday WCC protestants of which it is said SDA is a non-voting member.
The world and church seems to be wondering after the beast.
“Male headship is Biblical”
“Male headship” is not a doctrine of the SDA church.
There is no way we could adopt “male headship” as a doctrine without denying the inspiration of Ellen White, who acted in spiritual authority over many men, including ordained ministers and elected leaders.
It requires some form of “religious schizophrenia” to claim to believe in “male headship” and also to believe in the inspiration of Ellen White.
My Calvinist relatives who believe in “male headship” have been advancing this very argument against the SDA church, since my childhood. With all of the same “proof texts” that are used to argue against ordaining women.
These same arguments against Ellen’s authority have been leveled against the church since its beginning. And they were refuted by James White and other Adventist leaders.
Male headship has NEVER been a doctrine of the SDA church. It is a spurious doctrine started a couple of decades ago outside the Adventist church. This idea needs to be soundly denounced from every pulpit. This is the actual apostasy.
This is not the time to argue about words ordination and commissioned being Biblical or not….. The standard should be one. Lets keep praying for the spirit to guide us as always.
The word “ordain” does not appear in the Greek. Nor does it appear in the Latin Vulgate (though it is a Latin word).
It was introduced in the English by Wycliffe. And it does not appear in many other European language translations. And it has rightly been replaced in more recent English translations.
Acts 6 describes the ordination of the first Deacons. Presbyters or Elders were not introduced until later. If you are going to follow the model of Acts then Deacons should be baptizing.
What did Jesus say about ecclesiastical authority and children’s ministries and causing others to stumble?
Matthew 18:1-11
Mark 9:39-42
In Acts 6:1 the Hellenistic widows were being overlooked in the “diakonia”. In Acts 6:3-4 seven men are nominated from among the Hellenistic believers to perform the tasks of the “diakonia”.
Ergo – I and most other Bible students refer to them as Deacons.
PLEASE!
Another linguistic, theological study on ordination? As if anyone really is paying attention to endless word games and administrative nuances and strategies. I have two words for those against the Scandinavian vote on WO. The word “FRAY” comes to mind, a disorderly or protracted fight, struggle or dispute. Also the word “PROTRACTED”, to prolong or to extend forward and outward. These good people from Scandinavia have risen above the “fray” and ended any pain that may come from engaging in a “protracted” ecclesiastical struggle with higher church government. They have wisely decided to stop feeding the monster. They have shown all of us that it is possible to live passionately, whole-heartedly, compassionately, unabashedly and ethically. Read the entire vote and action that they voted. It is way above the fray!
These are my sentiments as well. In Scandinavia they have effectively declared a “truce” by ordaining nobody.
Unfortunately it is impossible to observe a truce when one side keeps trying to overtake the position of the other. If there is no response you surrender by default.
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” (cf Thomas Jefferson)
It is somewhat amazing that this matter carries on, decade after decade, but perhaps the fact that it has been going on for a long time makes it that much harder to adjust to the inevitable fact that a church that owes its very life and name to a woman (Ellen White) inevitably will recognize that God does indeed honor women with all spiritual gifts, and that we His children must not sin against His Spirit by denying recognition of what He has wrought.
Your point is somewhat muted by the fact that many who post on AT do not believe in the work of E G White.
EGW is a prophet now at rest. Perhaps was it necessary to ordain her when her commission came from the thrones of heaven itself. Has this the issue that has caused decades of dissent? Were she not ordained, she was commissioned of God.
Its disturbing as observed by Gardell above: you turn rebellious just because you couldn’t get your way. It would have been more probable for this line of thought to be emphasized and pursued than it is now being assumed when the status quo failed.
The Norwegian Union need to watch what is inspiring this and where it is leading. God still leads His Church even when you may be thinking that the leaders are failing, however strongly convinced you may be. The SDA Church is not a sectional church.
“you turn rebellious just because you couldn’t get your way”
And thus the pot calleth the kettle black.
Gardell Blake is equally “rebellious” with his stated opposition to women serving as pastors. This has been a voted policy for many years. It was not the question voted on in San Antonio. And yet those who oppose women serving as pastors are now using the vote in San Antonio as justification for eliminating that practice?
Unfortunately the vote in San Antonio settled very little. Neither side is persuaded by the other.
I guess it’s just “rebels all the way down”?
I wonder if perhaps here at AT it would be appropriate to have a “Bible Study” on the meanings, first of rebellion, then of apostasy. These serious, deadly words seem to be thrown around rather gratuitously, in a manner that reminds me of a gloriously coiffed candidate for the GOP nomination in the US, who uses terribly demeaning terms rather loosely to refer to all manner of individuals who disagree with him.
“Rebellion” to this reader refers to a wholesale rejection of someone to whom one has previously pledged allegiance and fealty. I see no way that discontinuing ordination of all pastors, in the traditional way, is a departure from faithfulness to the Lord.
As to apostasy, the standard definition is similar—a wholesale departure from a path to which one was previously dedicated. My baptismal vows say nothing about ordination, or the prescribed thoughts and practices I must support in the ordaining of spiritual leaders. I think those who use these terms in reference to ordination are employing sledgehammer verbiage to spiritually injure and demean many who love the Lord and the Church very deeply. To attack and exaggerate the non-fundamental shortcomings of those with whom one disagrees is held to be cause for censorial action in many historic Adventist settings. It is no minor thing to recommend expulsion of other members, on grounds of disagreement. Apostasy and rebellion are indeed held to be cardinal grounds for disfellowship….
Edwin,
If your “baptismal vows” included a reference to “understanding Bible doctrines as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church”, there were those who thought your affirmative answer indicated that you would henceforth neither disagree with what they thought nor disagree with the way they explained their beliefs.
So much for being thinkers and not merely reflectors of other men’s thoughts.
“We would ask who is going to ordain all the offices of Elder, Deacon, Deaconess and required others?”
In the Book of Acts they were ordained by their local congregations.
I am wondering if you have given any thought to the question of who ordained the first pastors in the SDA church?
If you do not subscribe to the doctrine of Apostolic Succession, then these were all in the beginning, affirmed by their local congregations.
Who ordained Paul and Barnabas? It was not Apostles from Jerusalem, it was the local congregation in Antioch.
Who baptized Saul in Damascus?
There is no record that Ananias was “ordained” by any humans. He simply obeyed the direction of the Holy Spirit to go and baptize Saul (and that despite his own misgivings).
Jim, Beautifully put.
My only query is why use the term ‘ordain’ elders etc?? Surely they should be just set apart by the laying on of hands.
The NT accounts that we generally associate with “ordain” are more accurately characterized as “consecrate” and “establish”. Indeed in traditional church practice these are the connotations of “ordain”.
However in the contemporary Roman society where the term “ordain” was taken, it referred to the establishers / enforcers of the civil ordinances.
Again, I am not opposed to the idea of ordaining church workers. I assented to the ordination of may father as an SDA pastor and decades later to my eldest son in the same capacity. I was ordained as a lay Deacon at the age of 24, and as a lay Elder at the age of 28.
What I am claiming is that we have in some important ways stood the NT practice on its head. Regardless of whether a person was “called” by a Prophet or Apostle or a group of Believers, the affirmation ceremony complete with “laying on of hands and praying” involved the entire congregation, not just those already “ordained”.
There is no notion of Apostolic Succession in the NT, with Ordination conveying the authority to administer the Sacraments. They practiced the Priesthood of all believers in their baptisms and in their consecrations. Whoever was present and just did what was needful – baptizing, anointing, consecrating, serving the Lord’s Supper.
So, do you think any believer may baptize someone coming in to the church?
“So, do you think any believer may baptize someone coming in to the church?”
Christine,
That is what they did in the book of Acts. it appears that the Bapitizers were those who led the people to accept Jesus as their Savior.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying what we do today is wrong. I am saying that it is not how things were done in the book of Acts. And I wrote this in response to a comment about who would baptize people if we stopped ordaining pastors.
My own view is that different circumstances require different practices. These practices should certainly be based upon Biblical principles. But that does not mean we mindlessly copy all Biblical practices. For example, there is no record that Ellen White covered her head when she prophesied before multitudes of people. We can either admit that she was not a prophetess or we can admit that she did not follow the admonitions of Paul literally.
So which admonitions of Paul are direct commands we dare not disobey, and which were advice whose principles must be applied wisely in our various contexts? That is the heart of the disagreement.
Christine,
Now back to your original question. In reply let me ask you a question. Do you think it is really right to insist that new believers wait many months to be baptized, simply because there is no ordained minister available to baptize them? And do you realize how the SDA church policy answers this question?
The official answer may surprise you. In situations where ordained ministers are not generally available (as well as in other circumstances deemed appropriate), the church permits local elders, with prior consent of their supervising ordained ministers, to baptize new converts.
Jim, I think that was her point. Prior consent cannot be given if there are no supervising ordained ministers. There are no ordained offices if ordination is removed.
The BIBLE, Sound Doctrine, the Church and the majority of members said “no”; unions do not hold privilege:
“Unions do not have the right to set their own criteria for ordination and are operating outside the parameters of Church structure if they do, just as if a local church decided to establish its own set of beliefs then it would no longer be a Seventh-day Adventist church” (“Unions and Ordination to the Gospel Ministry,” General Conference Secretariat, August 2015, p. 3).
The Unions are only delegate the privilege to ordain; not the choice. In bringing the brethren in remembrance as commanded in 1 Timothy 4: our stewardship should provide pastors all gifts.
The solution within stewardship; do not solicit in the name of the Church; and not support and sanction the Church. Do not waste our time and Charity. Definitely do not condone, arbor or sanction those contending otherwise, or forget that you have many neighbors to Love; especially those that will tell you “no” in Love and worry about your Soul. These are the things that adults have to worry about.
Who in the early church did the baptizing? Was not the command of Jesus to “go and baptize” given to all believers? So, if you’re a believer, what is to prevent you from baptizing? Just church tradition.
Imagine how much faster the Gospel might spread if believers took hold of the empowerment God offers each of us instead of being held-back by waiting for pastors?
The clergy had (has) to take some functions in their own hands in order to increase their level of “authority” and increase their distance from the “commons.”
As far as I know there is no statute in the Bible saying that only certain people can baptize. Same with ordination. Left alone ordination of women!
This is all part of a scheme in which men who feel insecure and weak have to use some “power & control” tool in order to affirm themselves. Even if it results in detriment to other human beings, they couldn’t care less!
To our brother in Love, the Holy Spirit would lead us to 1 Timothy 4:6 “If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.” and verse 14 “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”.
It would also lead us to 1 Peter (same chapter) 4:15 “But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.” and the requirements in 1 Peter 3.
The word of GOD is not there to detriment; nor condemn (John 3:16 and 17). The requirements to build strong houses and Churches in Matthew 12, Mark 3 and Luke 11 are there for protection; not detriment. These are not our requirements; but HIS. We Love our families and fulfill those requirements (commanded, but really through Love even to death).
So is your contention this some scheme of CHRIST to sacrifice all and command others to Love like and as such; to gain power and control and detriment others?
James saya “Is someone among you ill? He should call for the elders of the congregation. They will pray for him and rub olive oil on him in the name of the Lord.”
Is this an ordination serice? You use hands to rub.
Not quite. They were “set-aside” after the Holy Spirit made it obvious that He had called them to a particular role by gifting them to do it. The action of the church merely confirmed what the Holy Spirit had already made obvious. How often have you ever heard any conference leader ask the question of if a person is gifted by the Holy Spirit to be a pastor, or whatever? I probably don’t need the fingers of one hand to count the times I’ve heard it asked.
That comment was supposed to be in reply to Jim Hamstra’s comment about the “ordination” of local church leaders. Apparently the “reply” function is not working and comment strings are getting disconnected.
What a wise approach to correct this injustice! They did not brake any „rule”, but followed the Scripture faithfully! Those who are still unhappy with equal rights in the ministry for over half of our membership should think of the fact that Paul forbade women to talk at all in the church, not even to ask questions, to cover their heads, and slaves to obey their masters in all things. And he used theological arguments for these injunctions: as Jesus is the head, Eve sinned first, obey the masters as the Lord! For all times? Did he mean that? These points are totally ignored by those who cry aloud to be no women ordination. Seventh-day Adventists, with their woman prophet and co-founder of the church, should be the last ones to have any reservations about God’s call for everybody to work for Him in any capacity. He is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Very good! If ”ordination” is reserved for an elite, then better no ordination. As Doctor George Knight put it, the Bible says nothing about ordination, it is a Catholic concept. But it says something about commission, the Great Commission from Matthew 28:19,20!
I begin to improve my opinion about my fellow Adventists in the Scandinavian countries! Praise the Lord for that!
Jim, Beautifully put.
My only query is why use the term ‘ordain’ elders etc?? Surely they should be just set apart by the laying on of hands.
John Bunting (sorry for seeming hidden name above)
This appears to be a duplicate comment.
See my reply above.
“Traditions” develop because people do things that, while not necessarily sinful, are not strictly biblical. If nobody objects, that becomes “the way we do things” and thence develops into a tradition.
I confess that,from the 1940 until sometime in the 1980s, I saw no particular problem with the practice of conference officers “ordaining” someone at a camp meeting or maybe, sometimes, at a meeting of a local congregation.
The problem (the one I didn’t identify right away) was that that “tradition” was taken as implying that spiritual authority was being being bestowed by the conference officers through the ceremony of the laying on of hands.
It still isn’t “sinful” per se to do it that way but now that we see the fruit of that practice, it is time to recognize that a) spiritual authority is bestowed by the Lord himself on the individual and b) ordination is an affirmation by fellow believers that a person ALREADY HAS the spiritual authority and other gifts appropriate for the office for which he is a candidate.
Should an “ordination” be postponed until the member of other nearby congregations affirm what the members of a local congregation considers to be a candidate’s calling?
Probably. but we need to frankly and explicitly abandon the implied doctrine that spiritual authority comes from the conference.
P.S. The office of pastor is a holy office–not a “job”.
By stopping the ordination of women and men, it would be supporting the GC Leadership in barring the work of God to advance. According to my point of view, the GC Leaders don’t want to hasten the coming of the Lord and that is why they don’t want to involve the women in the cause. That can be shown by how many times the Top Leader went in Africa many times devising methods of how more Unions can be created so as to increase the delegates who would put him in position and hinder the women in the service. It is simple calculation which shows that the more people you can involve in the work the more work can be accomplished. Jesus said that that gospel will be spread in the whole world and the end will come. What would be the mistake for the women to spread the gospel and we go home, instead of seating iddlely and die in sin while the GC Leadership are thinking that they are earning their life! The Western World should stand up and say no to the GC Leadership. Let us involve women, children, men, blind and those with good sight so that we may hasten the coming of the Lord.
One thing I had forgoten to say, if you can stop ordaining both men and women why can’t you take the decision of also saying that since men have been ordained let us ordain also women and we finish of with the act. Ted is not Jesus. If the whole Union Conference takes this decision and then Ted opposes it, you just keep quiet and do the work of the Lord the report will finally be given to God not Ted.
It seems that what happens in the political arena in the USA mirrors what is also happening in the battle for allegiance in the SDA church.
Scandinavia has done a great favor in charting a perfect way for the church to resolve this struggle for women to be treated equally and with respect in ministry. Stop using the term or ordination for anybody regardless of gender. But, there are some “Historical Adventists” who want total complete and pure victory for their “headship ideology” which has no biblical application or basis for today, whatsoever. Do we apply their ideas and bring back animal sacrifices from the Bible? These texts without context are pretexts.
They believe certain things, and refuse to acknowledge other opinions. There’s too many examples, and I’d rather not sit here listing them. A good word to sum them up is “Radical”. I find that the majority of “radical” conservatives fit the description in question. It is quite sad that their world has not progressed towards truth, unity, harmony, and facts, yet. I hope their world grows bigger! It is sad when a lack of information and/or inaccurate information perpetuates fear, doubt, and very limited understanding.
Scandinavia got it right! Why can’t the rest of us?
I do not think that our General Conference Leadership has anything against using the whole potential of the church for the advancing and ending sooner the work of God. But they lead and, whatever their personal opinions, they do not impose anything. However, asking for a vote was not the way to go. If keeping women outside the ordained ministry is a fundamental Bible teaching, then follow it and do not vote on it. We do not vote on principles or doctrines, to keep the Sabbath holy or not. The winners may mention the vote to support their cause, but what if the vote would have been for? Would they have quoted it with the same enthusiasm? Neither the Bible, nor the Spirit of Prophecy, or the Church Manual do explicitly prohibit the practice, then why ask for permission? More than that, it is not the divisions which ordain pastors, but the local conferences. This issue could have been resolved without any approval, vote or discussion. But the Scandinavian unions did it better. Hire the trained people, pray for them and send them to work and forget the mirage of ”ordination”, a debate which caused so much tension. May God encourage all the unions in the world to follow the brilliant examples of those in Scandinavia. Comparison with the Old Testament priesthood is out of place: they all were types of Christ and had to be males. Moreover, even the Passover lambs had to be males for the same reason. Christ has come, has died, the veil was torn! It is finished!!!!!!!
This model should work. Any disagreement with majority vote results in self attrition. In time majority will become super majority. Not a bad way of achieving unity.
Thank you,Scandinavia. It’s the Christian solution and one that many of us have been proposing. Thanks to David Newman who first wrote a paper on this.
This turn of events is not a surprise from conferences within the Trans-European Division. Back in 2010 that Division, along with the NAD, modified their working policy so that it was out of harmony with the GC working policy regarding the conference president having to be an ordained minister. They changed it to read “ordained/commissioned” so as to open up the option for a sister to become conference president. When the GC Annual Council voted 168 to 117 and denied their authority to make such a change the Trans-European Division actually voted on Nov. 16, 2011 to reaffirm their decision! In other words they did not submit to the higher authority. The spirit of rebellion was there in that Division well before this new turn of events. Now we see a similar type of manipulation of policy here.
Now the ironic thing here is that they Norwegian Union tries to justify their action by claiming that the Adventist debate about ordination focused more on power, position and authority than on humble self-giving service but then they turn right back around and say that instead of ordination they will have “a simple prayer session” in order to give “THE NECESSARY AUTHORIZATION [for pastors] TO FUNCTION in their respective roles.”
So by their own tacit admission even their prayer session is actually focusing on the grant of authority. It seems that even they admit, perhaps unknowingly that this is still an issue of authority.
It seems to me that there are two VERY different views about what the church is.
One view is that believers constitute the church. I think I would hold this view even if it were not for the fact that that view of the church is the only way I can explain the BASIS of the historicist method of Bible interpretation employed by protestants from the sixteenth through the nineteenth centuries–including the pioneers of the advent movement.
The other view is that an organization is the church.
One sabbath, a Sabbath School teacher said something about the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists being at “the top” of the SdA organization.
I suggested that the General Conference is at the bottom of the organization. The organization may be visualized as a pyramid but as an inverted pyramid. The pastors serve the laity, the officers of the local conference serve the pastors and the laity, etc.
I think the pioneers of the advent movement and Ellen White in particular would “roll over in their graves” if they knew the extent to which the concept has been nearly lost that believers constitute the church.
The church may be organized. I think it should be organized. But organization is a tool of the church. Believers constitute the church. AND (I know I am a broken record on this point) believers constituted the church before there ever was an SdA organization.
There ARE some advantages to the current policy of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination with regard to baptism.
That having been said, let’s address the question of when (at what point in time) it is appropriate to baptize a new believer.
Most people become believers several (many?) months before they are ready to accept the responsibilities of voting membership in our denomination. It would be beneficial on several levels to eliminate the tradition of making an arbitrary connection between baptism and voting membership.
There may be other ways to answer this question but, if it were up to me:
A) people would only be baptized after they request it on their own volition.
B) Voting membership (an entirely different question) would be considered after the person requests voting membership on his own volition (without prompting) and only after studying not only Bible doctrines as listed in the “Fundamental Beleifs) but the history of the church: 1) before Jesus was born, 2) in the first century AD, 3) between the first and the sixteenth centuries, 4) the early reformation period and 5) later reform movements and the development of operating policies of the denomination. Most young people in their late teens should be able to acquire a good overview of all of the above in about a year. Most people who are younger or older than that might take longer.
The model we find in scripture for baptism is that it marks a person’s decision to become a believer and follower of God, not that they have embraced a particular body of doctrines. That contrasts with the policy the church has adopted where we require acceptance of a particular body of doctrines, some of which are debatable, before we will baptize them.
Baptism is the starting milestone on the path to discipleship. Jesus told His followers to “go and make disciples,” not to baptize them and assume they are forevermore spiritually mature and able to withstand all trials. Discipleship is a long-term path of spiritual growth and if we paid more attention to creating disciples we’d keep a lot more more of the members we’re losing.
Of course the discriminators of women don’t like the “Scandinavian Solution!” The procedure eliminates discrimination of women from their midst, and this is not what the discriminators are fighting for!
Now let’s wait to see how many other regions adopt the idea. It is actually a bright, brilliant idea. TOSC was an expensive idea and was nothing but a joke that ended up as TOSC-Gate. The Scand-Sol cost nothing and is totally effective.
The Scand-Sol is based on real freedom of choice. You see? The Scandinavians are not imposing it on the brothers and sisters of Africa, Latin America, etc.
i believe a person called by the Holy Spirit to perform a baptism, a burial, preach the word, prophesy, naming, or otherwise, whether, “ordained, commissioned, appointed, named, to be qualified to do the Lord GOD’s bidding. As was Moses. When I was “ordained” an elder, there was a laying on of hands. I in essence was named, appointed, consecrated
to leadership, by a local congregation, not by the General Conference. I accepted, not because i was pure and Holy, but because others had appointed me after prayer, in committee, that the Holy Spirit had spoken to their hearts. The word “ORDINATION”, has caused so much heat, anger, rebuke, controversy, money, delay, schism, etc, that it should be eliminated from the SDA vocabulary. Instead, let’s appoint, name, consecrate, lay on hands of all, yes all, who feel called, to lay on hands of blessing. Words, words, words, have caused all manner of condemnation, and hardship, between brothers and sisters in CHRIST JESUS. Please let us recognize the equality of manhood. There is neither male nor female in heavenly places. Jesus Christ is the “HEAD”, IN THE CHURCH, IN THE HOME, IN ALL IN ALL.
please note my comment about 20 inputs above.
They don not deserve to be ordained pastors in the first place for they are too carnal minded which is a sign of spiritual babyhood.
But Jim and William, who will ever teach you if not us “others”?
The Holy Spirit brings us into remembrance of Revelations 2: 7 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” and the message to the Church at Thyatira in the rest of the Chapter (and Acts 16).
1 Timothy 4:6 “6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.”
We would place the brethren in remembrance as commanded and in Verse 14 “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”
How can we now send our pastors, our worriers, into the world without these Gifts? How can one contend to remove such protection; to promote the vain ideologies of men (yet having nothing to do with men)? This is absolute discrimination and fails wisdom.
Who is suppose to ordain Elders, Deacons, Deaconesses and the many other offices requiring such? Do we just have children running up and down the isles of the Church from now on? Or maybe that is all we have now.
Monte, since you are senior executive management and if posts are deleted again; we will be teaching you the meaning of Charity and Discrimination.
Jim, why do you two not protect others (even as…
Charity,
There’s something either you are missing, or which you simply do not accept: ordination is NOT Biblical. But the gift of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are Biblical. They are God’s promise to all who believe. God empowers all believers to minister His redeeming and transforming love in power that amazes because it is not human.
The “laying-on of hands” is NOT ordination. It is simply the passing of greater Holy Spirit power from those who have been given greater gifts to those who are already ministering so they can minister with more power and in additional ways.
So if you want to see who God wants to teach, baptize, or whatever, ask who is a believer. You can identify them by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit being obvious in their ministry.
Have you received the Gift of the Holy Spirit that is promised to all who believe? Are you seeing the power of the Holy Spirit at work in your ministry? I hope so! If not, I hope you will be seeking it because that is your source of power to actually do the things God wants us doing instead of just talking about it as so many do.
Read Acts of the Apostles, p. 95
“Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office and a recognition of one’s authority in that office. By it the seal of the church was set upon the work of God (Ibid., pp. 161, 162).”
I think you confuse commission and ordination. The correct question; is it ordination without laying on of the hands?
“There have ever been in the church those who are constantly inclined toward individual independence. They seem unable to realize that independence of spirit is liable to lead the human agent to have too much confidence in himself and to trust in his own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly esteem the judgment of his brethren, especially of those in the offices that God has appointed for the leadership of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God (Ibid., p. 163).”
We bring into remembrance 1 Timothy 4:6 in ministry and 14 (above) without neglect of assignment of office. We do not forget; nor do we suffer:
1 Peter 4:15 “But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.”
Charity,
No, I am not confusing ordination and commissioning because ordination is not found in the Bible. Since the empowerment of the Holy Spirit is promised to all who believe, why do you defend what the Bible does not teach?
The laying-on of hands should not be confused with ordination, which was invented by the Roman Catholic Church to elevate people to a ruling class justified with a web of spiritual claims and lies. In the Bible the laying-on of hands happened only after the Holy Spirit told church leaders to set-aside an individual for the specific service to which they had been called. That individual was already working in the power of the Holy Spirit and the action conveyed a greater empowerment to them for greater service.
In contrast, in the SDA Church, ordination typically makes no difference in the ministry of a pastor because the question of Holy Spirit empowerment rarely is ever asked.
Instead of talking about ordination we should be talking about what it means to believe because God’s promise is that all who believe will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If we’re going to spread the Gospel the way we talk about doing then we need the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
Here’s a simple question to identify who is or is not empowered by the Holy Spirit: Is what they are doing for God drawing people closer to God, creating new believers and growing the church?
I don’t think you understand any of this.
“HE ordained 12” DA30 294 “Judas had the same opportunities as had the other disciples. He listened to the same precious lessons. But the practice of the truth, which Christ required, was at variance with the desires and purposes of Judas, and he would not yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from Heaven.
296 “Man needs a power outside of and beyond himself, to restore him to the likeness of God, and enable him to do the work of God; but this does not make the human agency unessential. Humanity lays hold upon divine power, Christ dwells in the heart by faith; and through co-operation with the divine, the power of man becomes efficient for good.”
I could not say it any better. CHRIST ordained 12, they ordained many and it has continues. The refrigerator light does go off when you shut the door; whether you were there or not.
The BIBLE and the Church asks us to identify stumbling blocks and those outside of Sound Doctrine. Every time you raise your voice; we are required to counter. Think about that, you obligate us to correct; because we Love you and others.
You contend our pastors do not know what they are doing? Then should we not teach our pastors? The problem may be that you have never seen a pastor being the beacon in the world and the strength required in such. The BIBLE defines the requirements because of this; not us. How about we just stick with HIS PLAN; since HE is the one that draws.
Charity,
I used to be a pastor and I count conference leaders and pastors as close friends so I know the politics of the church well. I also follow the counsel of Ellen White to let the Bible be my supreme guide so I do not let her use of the non-biblical term “ordination” redefine the clear descriptions in scripture. Obviously you are convinced to a different view and not even studying the research of the TOSC will convince you otherwise.
If you are thinking the way pastors work today is according to the Bible model then I could not disagree more for a simple reason: the absence of the power of the Holy Spirit in so many of them. Were the Holy Spirit working in them you would see them raising-up churches that would be overflowing and multiplying instead of dying and there would be renewal of faith where today there is debate of such inane distractions as ordination instead of celebrating the mighty works of God.
The TOSC consensus statement was great (2 pages)
“In the act of ordination, the Church confers representative authority upon individuals for the specific work of ministry to which they are appointed (Acts 6:1-3; 13:1-3; 1 Tim 5:17; Titus 2:15). These may include representing the Church; proclaiming the gospel; administering the Lord’s Supper and baptism; planting and organizing churches; guiding and nurturing members; opposing false teachings; and providing general service to the congregation (cf. Acts 6:3; 20:28‑29; 1 Tim 3:2, 4-5; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2; 4:5; Titus 1:5, 9). While ordination contributes to Church order, it neither conveys special qualities to the persons ordained nor introduces a kingly hierarchy within the faith community. The biblical examples of ordination include the giving of a charge, the laying on of hands, fasting and prayer, and committing those set apart to the grace of God (Deut 3:28; Acts 6:6; 14:26; 15:40).”
It includes the BIBLICAL examples, clear descriptions and definitions.
Usually I would ask that you prove your stance, since you egress Sound Doctrine; but you seem you want to learn. Do you wish to present something from the TOSC? Please identify references, we do not have a lot of available time to teach (but make such for you in Love); we are trying to save a dying Church and everyone seems to want to load the same bullet in the gun that injured Her to start with.
Charity,
I’ve ready your script before because you’re doing exactly what several others have done recently. You take a hard stand on ordination, then attack anyone who does not agree with you. When they won’t accept your view, you make wild accusations that they are trapped in sin, disobeying God’s law, etc. The longer they refuse to surrender to your supposedly inerrant and perfect view, the more wild your attacks become.
You would be wise to take a word of warning: the moderator has received complaints about such postings recently that have resulted in several individuals having their site privileges blocked. If you want to continue participating here, please be more respectful of the opinions of others and stop your wild attacks or you may be the next person blocked.
Charity,
Ellen White’s use of a modern term does not magically insert it into scripture, so let’s lay aside her comments and stick with God’s Word.
Jesus empowers believers with the Holy Spirit so they can make disciples. That is our purpose. So, why would we even be thinking about defending or preserving something that doesn’t help us fulfill that mission?
I’ve been noticing a curious contrast recently in the church where those who argue in defense of ordination (or against the ordination of women) typically are not ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit because, to them, the Holy Spirit is much more of a spiritual theory than God’s present reality and available to us. (Please note, I DID NOT say none of them were ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit.) I have been touched by the power of the Holy Spirit and have seen Him work through me in a ministry that I never would have imagined would draw people into closer relationships with Him. The transformation God has made in me and the things I have seen Him do through me have left me in awe of His amazing love and power so my greatest wish is for people to quit arguing about what doesn’t matter and embrace the reality of the empowerment the Holy Spirit offers each of us.
Are you ready to let God show you the reality of His power? I can assure you from experience that He won’t empower you if you are defending what doesn’t bring His power.
Then let’s stick with GOD’s WORD, you quote none of it. I would contend that nothing Ellen ever said was against the WORD though; at least within intent.
John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
What has the Holy Spirit taught you and brought you into remembrance of? We can read; we know the tree of life if for those that remember the message to the Church. We can see the many prophesies coming to light. We know why and look at you.
Do you offer prophesy; then state it. Do you offer proof of your Doctrine; then state it.
Demanded in alternate: why should we not ordain all of our pastors as the BIBLE commands, to provide them as much armor as possible? Do you not agree with the TOSC report?
You keep jumping around, unable to focus. First you fight; because it is what Ellen wanted? Then you want to use the BIBLE; but not use the BIBLE?
The BIBLE says “no”, Sound Doctrine says “no”, the Church says “no”, the vote was “no”, the vast majority of us want nothing you are selling and obligated by all and within all authority to correct stumbling blocks; yet you continue in Love? Do you know what Love is?
You sound more like someone “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Goodness! You sure are wrapped-up tight in trying to prove the irrelevant!
You’re right. I am “ever learning,” only I’m learning straight from the Holy Spirit and I’m enjoying the ministry adventures He sends me on. I’m having so much fun watching Him work that I’m waiting for someone to say it is illegal, only your disbelief comes pretty close.
The empowerment of the Holy Spirit is not just for church leaders, it is for every believer, including you. Focusing attention on justifying ordination for others is a waste of your time when God is waiting to put the power of the Holy Spirit in you so you can do great things for Him. That is His promise to all who believe. Are you willing to believe His promise to live inside you and empower you? I can tell you from experience that it is life-changing and you will never be the same. I’ve seen people healed of diseases and demons cast-out. (I haven’t seen the dead raised yet and I haven’t encountered any lepers.) I see God touching people with His love through my ministry, drawing people to Him and growing the church. Seeing that God is able to use sinful, imperfect me in those ways is an incredible blessing.
Are you sure you don’t want to enjoy that blessing?
Charity,
You wrote: “I take GOD, my Faith and Convection very seriously. Other than in HIS Love and Blessings, salvation of others is the only reason we are here. This include removing stumbling blocks.”
I couldn’t agree more. That is why ordination is not an issue for me, but seeking and enjoying the empowerment and guidance of the Holy Spirit is. The church grows where the Holy Spirit is present. Is your church growing? Mine is.
Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
This is another part of the calling of the Body. GOD has instilled great wisdom in those (to whom much is given, much will be required) and much is acquired from sweeping the floors and cleaning up the messes that others leave.
1 Timothy 4:14 “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”
We remember the power of the call, but also the oneness of the gift; as a Body. Our soldiers will be fully armored. HE will divide satan’s house; but we are commanded to build a strong house for HIM. This is to be the beacon of salvation for others to HIM.
The real question; why did no one rebuke these 10? Some actually seem to sanction and condone, leaving yet another command to others; because their personal ideologies are more important. They couldn’t do anything if they had to; they wouldn’t know how. They lack the wisdom and strength in works to be a beacon to anyone. The same repeated failures; while others are left to sweep the floors. Such self centered children; but impacting our soldiers sent and those left in the world.
I don’t think HE will stand for this very long.
Charity,
Because someone else sees things differently from you does not automatically mean they are caught-up in sin or that your increasingly wild and sweeping accusations have any basis in fact. I’ve read your script before. You start with your obsession that anyone who supports the ordination of women (or sees things differently than you) is wrong and then begin hurling a string of wild accusations at them with increasing venom. The moderator has already blocked several people from this site who did that and won’t hesitate to add you to the “blocked” list if you persist. So, if you wish to continue discussions, stop accusing. Do that and you might actually find yourself being challenged to greater spiritual growth.
Maybe we should ask Monte if your threats against against the Civil Rights of others hold weight. Why would you threaten any ones Civil Rights to start with? If you have proof that the moderator has blocked several people; why have you not corrected such issue as a Christian or at list as Citizen already?
Once again; you egress outside Sound Doctrine, while others are commanded by the BIBLE and Church to speak, and exhort, and rebuke within all authority. You are the one that keeps raising your head.
You have been asked many times to prove your point; are you unable to do so?
Charity,
The spirit in your words is so vastly different from the character of the God who loves me, who transformed me and who empowers me to love others into the Kingdom of God that I cannot believe a single word of your wild and venemous claims.
It’s a wonder Jesus hasn’t closed the heavenly sanctuary.
It’s a wonder Jesus hasn’t shut down the heavenly sanctuary.
It’s a wonder Jesus hasn’t shut down A-Today.
It is marvellous to note how organisations start, grow and formalise themselves. A few people meet and form a study group. In time they call it a church and invoke God’s authority, followed by the claim that it is God’s true church. Quickly they claim to be mouth-piece for God, and discard all similar groups as Godless, anti-christ or satanic. They close the door to collaboration, and there we have a world phenomenon, and perhaps a global headache! A we still in context here?
LIST OF THE TEN BEST THINGS THAT SCANDINAVIA HAS GIVEN TO US
1. An example of ordination equality/respect for all in SDA church
2. The world’s first parliament (Iceland in 930 and Isle or Man in 979)
3. The Celsius thermometer scale and pH scale
4. Nobel Prizes
5. Children books (Hans Christian Andersen, Astrid Lindgren, Selma Lagerlöf…)
6. Lego blocks
7. Music (Grieg, ABBA, Cardigans, A-Ha, the Hives, Mando Diao, In Flames, Refused, Röyksopp…)
8. Furniture (IKEA…)
9. Skype
10. Various small inventions (paper clip, cheese slicer, safety matches, spray can…
Thank you for your great example on how to behave as a church and as individuals.
LIST OF THE TEN BEST THINGS THAT SCANDINAVIA HAS GIVEN TO US
1. An example of ordination equality/respect for all in SDA church
2. The world’s first parliament (Iceland in 930 and Isle or Man in 979)
3. The Celsius thermometer scale and pH scale
4. Nobel Prizes
5. Children books (Hans Christian Andersen, Astrid Lindgren, Selma Lagerlöf…)
6. Lego blocks
7. Music (Grieg, ABBA, Cardigans, A-Ha, the Hives, Mando Diao, In Flames, Refused, Röyksopp…)
8. Furniture (IKEA…)
9. Skype
10. Various small inventions (paper clip, cheese slicer, safety matches, spray can…
Thank you for your great example on how to behave as a church and as individuals.
To those of you who weren’t delegates in San Antonio,
I wasn’t a delegate either but what if you had been? I’m not sure but I think I would have voted no on any motion that implied that the General Conference has the authority to make such decisions for the union conferences.
Has anybody stopped to consider that some of the no votes might have been motivated by something other than trying to prohibit the ordination of women?
If the biblical doctrine of the priesthood of all believers is true, no believer need the permission or a religious organization to preach the gospel, baptize, ordain or anything else. Before 1861, did the pioneers of the advent movement need the permission of a “conference” to do those things?
We still don’t.
Let’s return to adventism’s protestant roots.
Acts of the Apostles P 355.
“The Lord employs various instrumentalities for the accomplishment of His purpose, and while some with special talents are chosen to devote all their energies to the work of teaching and preaching the gospel, many others, upon whom human hands have never been laid in ordination, are called to act an important part in soulsaving.”
If I would have known the amount of dissent afterward; I would have voted no.
1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
1 Corinthians 14:34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.”
Run those through your specific ideology of the doctrine of priesthood of all believers if you want to revert back to protestant roots. Oh wait a minute, Sound Doctrine does not change.
You can go start your own church (and religion), register all the entities, fight for tax exemption and do anything you want; since an awful lot of people have an awful lot of works and efforts in this Church that do not belong to you.
Let me just bluntly ask; what kind of spirit would lead those to send our pastors, our worriers, into battle without the protections of all armor and approval of the body?
The comments are not published in date order and are direct replies often made days earlier.
Why can’t the posts be dated so a reader will be able to follow sequentially rather than trying to find the original post to which comments may be made?
It seems to me that this whole discussion has lost sight of Christ.
The whole endeavor to elevate men and suppress women is completely contradictory to Christ’s ministry. In every recorded interaction with women, Christ acted to break the shackles of social convention, to elevate and empower them. Christ started humanity on a spiritual journey that I am certain He intended to continue until, and even beyond His Second Coming. The fact that the first generation of Christians only made it half way down the block should not define the limits of the journey. Let us follow Christ in His ministry until all are able to realize the full fruition of their spiritual gifts.
CALL TO TED WILSON TO STOP AND CLOSE THE UNIONS WHOSE ARE WORKING AGAINST TO THE BODY OF CHRIST OF THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH
For several years some policies of GC were open to the apostasy in their decisions:
1) Used the engagement ring that is a jewel that rose to the ears , neck and wrists , which go against Christian standards
2) Opening the WOMEN ordination without biblical support, and continue fixing it in another way so do not feel bad that they agree with the ordination of women, and take them as a commissioned pastors. This brings in itself a breach of the organization, whose policies are unclear.
3) Allow worldly music get into our church, having a lack of effective clear policies regarding the Adventist music. It was creating two groups, conservative and liberal. Letting that the devil do what he wants in the churches , while we forget the clear instructions of the Bible and Sister Ellen White who gave clear instructions about this topic. There are music of the world, with current composers who have worldly philosophy and values alien to our beliefs that it inserted in their spiritists worship and cults generating widespread demonic posession, while some important leaders with liberal mind are influenced of contemporary music .
4) The leaders of these unions have fallen away from the faith, by going against it and disobeying the body of the church led by Christ , what remains is to take away the credentials and erase of our church.
Luis,
I understand the strength of your views but disagree with your conclusions regarding cause and effect. I see the church as having become lost in the pursuit of doctrinal purity instead of lost in pursuing relationships with the Holy Spirit. I see people becoming lost in the dissection and debate of minor and irrelevant parts of prophecies instead of ministering the redeeming and transforming love of Jesus according to the example Jesus gave us. So we should not be surprised the church is dying in places. Yet some claim all we need to revive the church is return to the old ways, but those old ways are what got us where we are.
Where the Holy Spirit is present, the church grows. We need to be seeking the Holy Spirit instead of getting lost in arguments over wedding rings and music in worship.
Only fools would kill the goose that lays the golden egg. The largest union, if not in numbers, but in financial support, would be “killed.” Why would the G.C. cut off its own nose to spite its face? The support given from this one union is only second to all the world unions and divisions. Foolish indeed!
2013 tithe members
Netherlands – $4,715,841 4,977
Swedish – $3,425,335 2,751
Norwegian – $10,448,196 4,541
TED Total – $76,761,485 82,769
World Total – $3,354,863,946 17,559,434
The totals are only posted for relevance. The economic situations are understood and we are with you. Many deal daily with decisions and obligations. Your Heart and Love are greatly appreciated.
The complaints of the many that want no part of this are heard; you will not be part of any political power play. The Church may deal with children running up and down the isles; but watches out after its brethren and own. The Body is strong; remember our FATHER owns everything.
To ease the minds of those stuck in the middle of this little worldly political battle. Should we not think of and Love everyone? SOMEONE does.
A proposal in call and alternate in risk were submitted. Should both not be reviewed? Should we not Love and cherish both submitting? Should the impact to others not also be reviewed and fears relieved?
Love is complicated; but definitely not “just noise and nonsense”. We have no wisdom compared to or without HIM.
Do you have an alternate proposal or build?
We know by definition the root cause of dissent is evil. Do you offer another root problem or solution? Do you contend the scope and magnitude of the problem differently; or within Love should we “not” contend the scope and magnitude at all?
Should we not be full of Grace and Truth; if HE is within us? Are we not able to handle the Truth or can we just not fit it into our little worlds?
Maybe Truth and wisdom should be withheld as others grow? In many cases this is part of Love? In alternate can either be withheld with impact to the Body? Should others not be allowed privilege to think through their decisions within Truth and wisdom?
In alternate; what words provide are just noise and nonsense? What is your point or purpose here for HIM?
Anything to support discrimination of women, eh?
Isn’t it time for the Church to start working at a higher level of civility instated of perpetuating this shameful practice of discriminating women? It is actually past due!
In absolute perspective.
We have 3 failing Unions, voting to continue their failing practices; against Sound Doctrine and Church vote.
We have 3 corresponding Countries pleading for help, including pleas to the Church, because people are scared to walk the streets, do to criminal and Juvenal activity. We look at the laws for the Countries and almost everything is legal and Sweden even imposes a fine for spanking your child (we started paying that for them).
We have persons obligated in servant authority with sufficient strength, wisdom, conviction and Love to protect; GOD Loves us that much.
We have those voting without wisdom, strength or convection; who in all honesty have never done anything and couldn’t find their way out of a wet paper bag. Such voting wish to remove the armor and oneness that comes from ordination; from the only ones capable of providing help. I can tell you where this plan came from.
Isaiah 32:
5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.
6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.
Do you think our time would be put to better use if we focused on Christ and the Gospel! Or should we all become Roman Catholic. See Pope Francis opinion below.
By Associated Press
Posted Sep 26, 2015 at 11:19 AM
Updated Sep 26, 2015 at 11:21 AM
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Latest developments in Pope Francis’ visit to the United States. All times local:
11:10 a.m.
Pope Francis says the future of the church depends on an increased role for the laity and on valuing the “immense contribution” of women.
Francis delivered a homily in Spanish Saturday while celebrating Mass in front of about 1,600 people at the main cathedral in downtown Philadelphia.
Francis has repeatedly said women should have a greater role in church leadership, although he has rejected the idea of ordaining women.
By touching on the issue, Francis seemed intent on healing one of the major rifts in American Catholicism that has alienated many from the church.
Again a wrong interpretation of a vote, like after Utrecht. Then about NAD, now about all the divisions. The vote was not if women ordination is correct or wrong, but whether to allow the divisions to decide or not. The answer was no, not the divisions. Which was not needed anyhow, because the conferences ordain, not the divisions. Kudos for the unions in Scandinavia, which understand Galatians 3,28 and the Scripture and Christianity! Go ahead and use all those for whom Christ died and are converted and spiritual and qualified for His work!
I enjoyed reading the comments from different people. Its interesting to note that some people are becoming emotional about this issue. Why not calm down debate, share ideas and have a common ground.
I see the ordination issue was dominated by men and not women. Why are men pushing for it. What is their interest ? If the Pope Francis of all people out-rightly REJECTED the ordination of women and and at the same time advocating for woman leadership. Are there no areas that women can lead that do not require ordination than to remove it.
I also see George Tichy giving figures of tithe from these unions. I don’t think that this debate should be based on the union’s ability to support the church. Are you aware that God can support His church with or without these tithes ? God wants us to apply correct attitudes when returning tithe and offerings.
If any one of these unions think the church will suffer because they have been withdrawn from the church then they should try it see if that will happen. God will raise stones to replace all the people who think they have money and want to manipulate His church.
Please carefully read Luke 21:1-4 or from Mark 12:41-44 the correct christian attitude of giving from that woman.
God bless you.
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