Adventist Seminary Releases New Pastoral Position Paper on Homosexuality
October 15, 2015: A new position paper on homosexuality was voted last week by the faculty of the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan. It combines both Bible study that supports the established position of the denomination on this topic and a new, pastoral approach that emphasizes compassion and respect for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people.
At a meeting on October 9 the seminary faculty voted unanimously to approve a 21-page document entitled, “An Understanding of the Biblical View on Homosexual Practice and Pastoral Care.” For at least six months the document has undergone widespread study by Bible scholars, theologians and pastoral experts. There has also been input from denominational leaders at the Lake Union Conference, the North American Division and the Biblical Research Institute.
The paper supports the teachings of the Adventist denomination with careful Bible study from a number of passages in the Old and New Testaments. These include Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 19:1-11; Leviticus 18:22, 20:14; Judges 19:23-24, 21:11-12; Ezekiel 16 and 18; Matthew 5:32, 15:19, 19:9; Mark 7:2; Acts 15:29; Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Peter 2:4, 6-8; and Jude 6-7.
“While being faithful to biblical teaching about homosexuality, we must also seek earnestly to understand and empathize with the struggles and challenges that face those who struggle with sexual immorality,” the document states. “In order to understand them, we must seek them out and listen carefully to their stories. Many have been deeply hurt emotionally by their heterosexual brothers and sisters. We must also be sensitive to the reality of high rates of homelessness and suicide among gay youth. Jesus mingled with and ministered to all who were outcasts (Matt 9:11; Luke 5:30; 15:2). As Christians who are called to love as Jesus loved, we too must be concerned with the real needs of gay youth. Many homosexuals have been bullied, beaten, or even killed in various parts of the world. Gay persons have not felt welcome in some churches and have often been the victims of gossip and crude jokes. Some have been expelled from our Christian schools when they revealed their attraction to the same sex. Most, if not all, have heard sermons that condemn homosexuals as persons, failing to distinguish between homosexual attraction or orientation and the practice of homosexuality. All persons, including practicing homosexuals, should be made to feel welcome to attend our churches while non-practicing gay persons should be welcomed into membership and church office. All should receive spiritual care from the Church (Gal 6:1). [Page 16]
“We stand against any antipathy toward homosexuals as well as any cultural biases that fuel a lack of Christ-like love toward them. These kinds of attitudes need to be repented of and the Church needs to provide more intentional ministries directed toward gay and lesbian persons (Matt 9:13; John 3:17). We should be aware of how easily we might fall into self-righteous judgmentalism. [Page 17]
“Love demands that we continue to learn about homosexuality and that we compassionately reflect God’s love for gay persons. Love also demands that we support them when we see them being treated unfairly.” [Page 18]
“I am very pleased with this document,” says Dr. Jiri Moskala, the seminary dean. “Unlike most documents of this nature, this unique statement combines both biblical study and a pastoral approach. … It’s a very well-documented, balanced study that is God-centered, Bible-founded and grace-oriented.”
The entire statement can be read on the seminary Web site at www.andrews.edu/sem.
In this report, reference is made to “practising homosexuals” and to “non-practising gay persons”. Practising homosexuals, like the rest of us, must be welcome into the church. Non-practising gay persons may be welcomed to hold membership and office. How will the church know who is practising and who is non-practising? Will members and all attendees now be required to declare their sexual orientation?
It is good to see that some people in the church now reaise that, even in the area of sex, there are differently endowwed people,who need love and understanding just like the rest of us. Whatever stand the church takes, it must be prepared for a barrage of criticism, especially from the fanatic bible misinterpreters and from some genuine ignorant few.
Nathaniel, I’d avoid using words like “endowed” when discussing homosexual issues
Drawing a difference between practicing and non-practicing homosexuals is chasing an illusion. Jesus taught that a man who looks on a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultery with her, or that a person who regards another with hatred in their heart is as guilty as if they had committed murder. Homosexual behavior is no different. Yes, the transformation God works is made known in a person’s actions but measuring a person’s actions does not tell you what is hiding in their heart, their weaknesses or their desires. We need to move beyond measuring just behavior to experiencing relationships with God that are so empowered we have the strength to reject temptation and allow God to change our inmost desires into what He wants.
Brother Noel, are you saying that people who are sexually attracted to their own sex from puberty can lose these attractions and become sexually attracted to the opposite sex? (If only they have enough faith I presume?)
Please list the names of these people.
This ex-gay road had been well traveled for decades. It has collapsed on itself spectacularly.
It pains me to see people head on down this road afresh and wide-eyed as if the last 40 years didn’t happen.
If God is not powerful enough to redeem and transform a homosexual, why do you trust that He has enough power to help you overcome your sins?
No, I will not do as you have requested because of the scorn and condemnation that will be heaped on them by those who doubt the power of God with professed believers in Jesus being some of the most vicious among their attackers.
Victory over sin is not just offered, it is promised to all who believe in God. So, if you claim to believe in God’s power to redeem you from your sins, why do you doubt His ability to redeem and transform all sinners, including homosexuals?
Brother Noel, they don’t exist.
Mind you, I know people who’ve died of disease. Had they too little faith?
Does the moon not exist because you haven’t touched it? Do whales not exist because you haven’t been able to swim with them? I assure you that converted homosexuals exist because they are my friends. You just haven’t met them yet. Plus, it is politically-correct to deny God’s power to transform. Fortunately, God is VERY politically incorrect.
Either God is powerful enough to change a homosexual or He is too powerless to change you and redeem you from your sins. If God is too powerless to change sinners, then you have no reason to believe in Him.
William Noel,
You will not name Wayne Blakely and his “Coming out Ministries “team, but I will.
Wayne is a nice guy and well meaning
His team titillates our cloistered innocent naive teenagers with steamy sordid tales of sodomy and substance abuse. He exults in detailing his pitiful past as a promiscuous perverted male prostitute.
Now, aging and with lowered testosterone levels, he would be a better “poster boy” for viagra amd cialis than for that pernicious mantra:.”pray the gay away”.
After years of “sowing his wild oats” he claims that he is now “cured” of his homosexuality but admits to still having “same sex attraction”. So easy to claim when waning sexual desire from depleted hormone levels, is the more likely cause than God’s saving power!
EXODUS INTERNATIONAL, the premier “change ministries ” group, closed up shop and gave abject apologies to their previous adherents,
acknowledging “change ” of sexual orientation was not only impossible but psychologically detrimental.and damaging.
Forty years ago Adventist Colin Cook, in his disastrous Reading Pennsylvania fiasco, surely should have destroyed all credibility in “change ministries”. William, you have blinders on. Get with it!
Robin,
I offer no defense or explanation for groups like Exodus International or any other “change ministry.” I agree with you that their failures cast doubt on those who claim God can change someone who is gay or lesbian. All I can say is that I have several friends who now consider themselves to have been redeemed from homosexuality by the power of God.
One of the great ironies in this topic is how those who are gay or lesbian and their social/political defenders are often the most venemous in condemning the concept of God being powerful enough to redeem. Such condemnations are at their root an attempt to deal with the guilt and shame that a person is aware of because of how it contrasts with the character of God and they are trying to make that condemnation go away.
It was a converted homosexual who taught me how the Gospel really works and introduced me to the power of God to deal with my sin challenges. His life began turning around the moment he discovered that God was not condemning him, but offering him power to be changed. No the changes did not happen in a moment or overnight, but over a long time. He fell and had to seek God’s forgiveness and power again. But God just kept-on working in him, the changes kept happening and progressed to such a degree that it was obvious he was a new creature in Jesus and the power in his testimony changed me.
God has the power and loves you. How he works in you is between you and Him.
ATT,
All of us have known people who died from disease. Sometimes the greater witness to God’s power is not from the person who was healed miraculously, but the person sharing how God sustained them through their suffering as they looked forward to the promised resurrection to eternal life. Are you willing to trust God to sustain you through your challenges and love you in spite of your imperfections?
“…consider themselves to have been redeemed from homosexuality…”
———————–
What exactly *is* that?
We have been down this road before so this has no significance.
For years people have been hiding behind religious-speak like “redeemed” and “changed”.
Served with a healthy dose of guilting (“Don’t you believe in god’s power?”) it used to go down but no longer.
Here’s the deal.
Many people consider “stopping having sex” or “marrying a member of the opposite sex” to be the same as “leaving homosexuality”.
This is nonsense of course according to any definition or medical understanding of sexual orientation.
Many gay men and women may marry the opposite sex and they may or may not be happy (some certainly can be happy); but they have in no way stopped being gay by any definition of the word.
Having a wife yet being sexually attracted to men is not heterosexuality.
Even the church’s go-to on this (I forget his name now) says that were he to fall sexually it would be with another man. That, Dr. Noel, is no heterosexual.
As Gary Bussee the founder of Exodus International said:
“I never saw one of our members or other Exodus leaders or other Exodus members become heterosexual, so deep down I knew that it wasn’t true.”
So I think you need to be updated a bit.
A rash of scandals over the last decade and a half exposed these ex-gay ministries and the double-meaning behind the words they used to hide behind…
The past president of Exodus International met with people “damaged” by change ministries for a program hosted by Lisa Ling. One of the respondents emphasized that Christians must stop telling homosexuals that what they are doing is wrong.
I guess the guy from EI was gay himself but recognizes that most people can’t or won’t change. He’s been married to a woman for quite a few years.
Amen
“All persons, including practising homosexuals, should be made to feel welcome to attend our churches while non-practising gay persons should be welcomed into membership and church office”
Warning Bells….homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex cases…is this a wise move?
Here comes the split…..
Please give the statistical evidence for the remark that “homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex cases”?
Please provide a link.
Noel, this is between the Lord and each of us… There is no human way to know people’s hearts… so it is for Him to take care of. 🙂
A surefire way to tell if your dealing with someone who’s deficient in their understanding of sexuality OR of society is by the use of the term “practising homosexual”.
That immediately dates the individual and almost certainly broadcasts their level of thinking on the matter.
For the record we don’t call people “homosexuals”. That’s like the South African policeman in “Cry Freedom” referring to the black maid as a “Bantu female” in her presence.
We say “gay and lesbian”.
Second of all, we never speak of “practising heterosexuals” because we know being straight is not a “practice” neither is it primarily about sexual activity.
Nobody would argue that they became heterosexual only on their wedding night.
Furthermore what practices are we referring to? Gays (and straights for that matter) “practice” many things–including the piano.
If we want to talk about sexual activity we should say so.
Your insights highlight the simplistic thinking many use with regard to sin where they think it is just an issue of choice to do or not do. You know from experience that it is a far deeper and more complex issue of our basic nature. Fortunately, God is in the business of changing our nature.
William, do not go around telling gay people that God will make them straight if they only have enough faith. Please do not.
That path has enough victims.
Position paper on homosexuality: Draw a couple of stick figures, one bent over and the other standing behind him. Draw a circle with red ink around the two figures; draw a diagonal line through the circle.
I am happy seeing this step toward practicality in dealing with a significant social and moral issue. It isn’t going away and we can’t sweep it under the rug anymore. Effective ministry of God’s amazing, transforming power requires that we first learn in our own experience before we can minister it to others. As a result, I expect there will be long and loud outcry and argument from those who have not been transformed, yet who claim to believe in God. Their lack of experience with God will caus them to doubt His power to save unto the uttermost all who come to Him by faith. They will claim God doesn’t want to save such people whom they scorn. So I think our greatest challenge with effective ministry to homosexuals is not ministering to them, but first ministering God’s redeeming love to the people who claim to believe in God so they can have sympathy for others who are struggling with sin.
God made us as we are. To claim that God made mistakes in creating homosexuals or heterosexuals is to say God did not create us in his image and that we should reject how we were created.
If you know of one individual who has become either heterosexual or homosexual because of his own choices, please cite examples. To claim that God can only change homosexuals is to reject how he made us.
Did he create children with Downs syndrome; cerebral palsy? Other deformities? Should the church condemn these people as not fit for membership?
Remember, when Christ was asked about a lame (or was it blind) man, the Pharisees asked him if he or his parents sinned. He replied by healing him. If God had not chosen to heal him, then what? Has God chosen to heal all the many afflicted people who prayed diligently? Perhaps the answer is “No,” we are to welcome him rather than reject. Isn’t He our example?
Elaine,
Homosexual is a psychiatric term coined in the late nineteenth century. Thinking of homosexuality as a state of being is new idea for man. In all the previous epochs ‘sodomy’ was something you did. If you did it habitually you were a ‘sodomite.’ It would be silly to think of an adultery as a state of being. Something you can’t do anything about. Surely there are men and women doomed to philander because of their own incontinence. But no one is born an adulterer or an adulteress. The action of the will lies at the root of the action.
Homosexuality is a psychological construct which seeks to understand man apart from his creation. Such psychological constructs are never essentially true because they never incorporate the essential understanding that man willfully sins and separates himself from his creator.
I presume, then that you were not heterosexual until you were married.
“All persons, including practicing homosexuals, should be made to feel welcome to attend our churches while non-practicing gay persons should be welcomed into membership and church office.”
Is this consistent with the way our church treats practicing heterosexuals vs non-practicing straight persons?
A question to ask oneself, when did you decide to be straight?
Is it inconsistent with how we should be treating all sinners?
Being gay is not a sin. Even the SDA Church believes that. That is its official position.
Homosexuality is but one sin among many but it is amazing how many professed believers in Jesus have a spiritual seizure over the thought of a homosexual being in the church while minimizing and excusing their pride, adultery, etc. The same redemption is offered to all so apparently some have lessons to learn about the effectiveness of God’s power.
Being gay is not the same as having pride or committing adultery.
Our church makes this known in its position statement.
The Bible states in no uncertain terms that homosexuality is a sin. I’m not aware of anything in church teachings claiming any difference in the severity of one sin versus another because God makes no such distinction. However, I’ve seen plenty of writers here claiming there is such a difference.
I wish greatly that people would quit trying to make themselves feel as if they are justified in the eyes of God because they are “not as sinful as a homosexual.” Instead of condemning others we need to recognize that we’re all in the same need of salvation and to encourage each other in our weakness by focusing our attention on the redeeming power of God. Unfortunately, far more people talk about that power than actually experience it.
Please give a Bible text that states that BEING homosexual is a sin.
Through the Law is the knowledge of sin. You shall not lay with a man as with a woman it is an Abomination. It is an Abomination. That is the strongest word you can use to describe away that goes against God ways a clear sin.
Because they refused the Love of the truth He gave them strong delusion to believe a Lie. This paper is about what the BIBLE teaches, WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES. You can justify alot of things when you don’t accept the bible as the inspired word of God or believe in the reality of the Word God. Precepts upon precepts line upon line. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:22-24
We are all born with a sinful nature since Adam, we are born sinners not born gay, born sinners. Once we accept the word of God we become children of God. Not willing to let go of pride, adultery or homosexuality when you come in contact with the Word of God is the same thing.
I for one by the Grace of God will direct men and women to trust the word of God always. We Should lift up the word of God and not the abomination of Homosexuality. For my brothers and sisters who are struggling with the temptation of homosexuality hold onto God you are more than conquerors through Christ. Don’t accept the lie that you are gay, You are a Child of God, you are not gay. Do not accept this false label or character.
This is not really a new statement, but simply a rehash of much older opinions. Meanwhile, many highly-respected biblical scholars have uncovered a more accurate and insightful understanding of those few verses. Unfortunately, the professors who wrote this are not educated in the science around this subject which has been going forward over the past few decades.
Someone suggested to me that, with nine seminary professors who have asked that their ordination credentials be changed to commissioned ones, this is a red herring to give assurance that they aren’t going to cave on this too.
Maybe the whole paper (which I haven’t read) leaves a different impression than this synopsis, but I can’t imagine how gays would feel welcomed beyond a manipulative (“hope you change so you can join us”) superficial acceptance, when the statement describes their state as one of immorality: “we must also seek earnestly to understand and empathize with the struggles and challenges that face those who struggle with sexual immorality”.
RTC,Gays bumping into Adventism are just extending their nihilism into new areas. It’s a toxic denomination for them, more than others. Homosexuals seeking affirmation from Ted Wilson, for example, are in for a long and painful wait.
“hope you change so you can join us”
Nope – that is backwards. We come to Jesus so He can change us. We do not change in order to come to Jesus.
But as the teachings of Jesus make entirely clear, if we stay close to Jesus He WILL change us. And that applies to ALL of us, including homosexuals, heterosexuals, men, women, eunuchs, transgendered.
Flesh and Blood (ie natural tendencies and desires and motives and intentions) cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Flesh can give birth only to Flesh. It is the Spirit that gives birth to the new life we live in Christ.
The dishonest person hates the Light because it exposes the evil that lurks within us. The honest person come to the Light and it is seen that our good deeds have been wrought through God (not through us).
With humans this is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Jim, this exposes the church’s unguarded flank.
Anyone who’s been paying attention wouldn’t be so blase about using the word “change” willy nilly.
Change what? What will change?
Will gay people become straight? The world is littered with the corpses of people deceived with this promise and many more walking dead.
The church has never apologized.
Now is not time for sloganeering. When it comes to sexuality, we cannot play fast and loose with that word.
Jesus decides when, what and how to change each of His followers. And not all changes that are needed will occur in this life.
This is not sloganeering. It is Bible truth.
So what are you promising?
It sounds like a lottery.
Were we not warned that after accepting Women’s Ordination that the ABOMINATION of homosexuality would come into the Church on the back of it?
No, we weren’t. Not by someone who knows the sin that is in all of us and has been redeemed. Not by anyone who knows what it is to be lifted-up by the forgiving and redeeming Jesus.
Yes there are humans who have warned us of these things. But I have found no evidence of Divine Inspiration in these warnings.
Show me where these specific warnings are found either in the Bible or in Ellen. Quote for me chapter and verse.
You can find warnings regarding almost anything emanating from the human imagination. Do not confuse human reasoning with Divine authority.
I thought it was “petard” and who thought Hamlet was Greek? He was a Danish prince. (Perhaps and earlier comment attributed him to being Greek.)
It appears you are willing to forgive murderers
” ” ” ” ” ” ” adulterers
” ” ” ” ” ” ” thieves
” ” ” ” ” ” ” coveters
” ” ” ” ” ” ” liars & cheaters
” ” ” ” ” ” ” neighbor abusers
” ” ” “NOT ” ” ” homosexuals
All of these deserve the death penalty for which caused the death of our Lord and Savior JESUS the CHRIST.
Yet you have no mercy for the homosexual. Which of these sins are yours, that caused the death of JESUS????
Rendering judgment is dangerous. May GOD have mercy on your soul.
Earl, I think you forgot
“””””Idolaters?????
To get on topic, let’s remember that “where there is no vision, the people perish.” I’m just saying. However, I personally would rather the church be more inclusive. I’m not saying to condone the behavior, but we should never refuse baptism to anyone –no matter what. The power of God is greater than anyone can imagine and by withholding or segregating someone (like punishing them) is not the Christian way.
My take on this, as it is on all subjects of religious matter, is that we should be accepting of all nations, tongues AND PEOPLE. To love one another be it Gay, Straight, Transgender, Pagan/Gentile, Jew, Christian, etc. ALL PEOPLE! And go out and proclaim the gospel of love and life in freedom and liberty. Let God judge each one individually for only God knows why they were born this way or that way or made to be this way or that way.
By allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work in each person, they will come to accept Christ or rejecting Him. We don’t separate the sheep from the goats, Jesus does that, BUT remember, ALL are His and no one can snatch them out of His hand, and He Will go to the ends of this earth to save each one –come to think of it, He already has!
The Greeks had many wonderful saying – they must have forseen Adventism when they coined the expression “hoisted on one’s own petard”. Adventists love to take Paul and use him when it fits their purpose (i.e. homosexuality) but social pressure on women’s role in the church makes them ignore him and make excuses as to why it doesn’t say what it says. Is it too much to ask for consistency? Either take what he says literally or re-interpret all his works. They deserve the dilemma of the quagmire surrounding women’s ordination!!
“For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar”
I did not know that Hamlet was Greek?
Shakespeare poked much fun at human folly, this being but one example.
The word “petar” refers to a contrived explosion large (eg a bomb) or small (eg flatulence).
As children we used to say that someone who experienced flatulence was “jet propelled”. Maybe we were also Greeks?
It is more likely that Shakespeare refers to being “blown-up by your own bomb”.
“Either take what he says literally or re-interpret all his works.”
A false dilemma, Miles.
If you insist to take literally everything Paul wrote in his epistles, then the only proper form of circumcision is to cut-off the entire male organ, not just a flap of skin. (Galatians 5:12) And Ellen White was a false prophetess because she spoke before multitudes of men with her head uncovered. And those men present, also disobeyed Paul because they did not shave her head in retribution. (I Corinthians 11:5-6)
When we mis-interpret, then sooner or later someone will need to re-interpret.
The seminary is chasing chimeras if they think gays will be pleased with their efforts. Although well-intentioned, how are gays benefited by a statement that comes so far short of urging them to renounce and seek deliverance from an orientation Scripture says disqualifies them from heaven? It’s too bad the seminary has apparently bought into the notion that, generally speaking, sexual inversion is inherent rather than of cultural development. (cf. Ben Carson’s remarks on prisoners becoming gay. Although he apologized, I’m not aware of anyone refuting his observation.) Charitable attitudes and actions are indeed called for, but talk about killing folks (eternally) with kindness! 1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (cf. Strong’s ‘fig.: Catamites,’) nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [but so long as they are not currently practicing, our seminary asserts they should be eligible to serve on SDA church boards.]
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I see that “official” Adventist theology has now invaded bedrooms to determine who is and who is not a practicing gay individual. I can’t wait for a declaration that “official” Adventist theology will need to invade bedrooms to determine who is and who is not a practicing straight individual.
I wonder if Paul ever anticipated how much trouble he was going to cause. Of course, that would never come up with him because he knew that the Second Coming would quickly occur. Wrong on that one. But, of course, he was right about everything else. Right?
This whole topic continues to descend down and down the rabbit hole to a kind of Alice in Wonderland dialogue. I can visualize my granddaughter’s generation rolling their eyes.
Dr Ervin Taylor,
How perceptive your remark:
“I wonder if Paul ever anticipated how much trouble he was going to cause”
Do the seminary professors wonder how much trouble they cause?
Paul in his unequivocal endorsement of slavery, gave scriptural “cover” to slave owners, and slave traders alike, resulting in the absolute MISERY of untold millions over two millenia.
Paul’s misogynist edict: “Wives submit yourselves to your husbands” has justified wife beating, resulting in millions of battered women. Wife beating is pervasive in Adventism and will proliferate under the pernicious headship DOGMA.
Paul, whom some have analysed as himself a self-loathing homosexual, continues to perpetuate gay bashing, gay bullying and gay teen suicide, with his anti-gay rhetoric.
Paul has caused more MISERY over two millenia than Hitler and Stalin combined.
These two despots only impacted their own generations.
The seminary professors, an aging inbred bunch of heterosexual males, in a rampant, rabid, recitation of proof texts first decry gay bashing and gay bullying and gay teen suicide, not realizing that like Paul, their very condemning comments create the problem..
Gay teens who are rejected by their families have a suicide rate EIGHT times that of their heterosexual cousins and siblings .
The Andrews brand of Adventism is TOXIC to our gay/lesbian offspring.
Most would be better off if born into accepting Atheist homes.
“The seminary professors, an aging inbred bunch of heterosexual males, in a rampant, rabid, recitation of proof texts first decry gay bashing and gay bullying and gay teen suicide, not realizing that like Paul, their very condemning comments create the problem.”
Do you actually know these people? Have you actually read their paper?
I personally know several AU Seminary professors. Like all of us they are indeed aging, and arguably the stress of their job may cause them to age a bit faster than otherwise they might. But I would say that most of them are best described as “middle aged” including both the men and the women.
“Shoot the messengers” is a very ancient practice. Just ask Isaiah or Jeremiah or Daniel or John the Baptist or Jesus Christ or James or John or Stephen or Peter or Paul.
So Robin, I am wondering which remedy you propose for your issues with these professors you detest. Should they be sawn asunder, cast into dungeons or fiery furnaces or dens of lions or boiling cauldrons, beheaded, stoned or crucified?
Or would you merely shred their writings and incinerate the shreds?
The lack of a single psychiatrist, psychologist, Biologist or Neurologist on this committee makes all they wrote as simply a rehash of all similar official church pronouncement on this subject.
Do any of those professors have a child or sibling or close relative who is gay? Chances are that they do; but if so, offered no personal story.
This is such a personal topic that to have theologians deciding on the hermeneutics and Greek and Hebrew meanings is a charade. The lack of true understanding and any emotional experience makes this paper worthless for anything new or different.
(Yes, I have read the paper.)
Jim.
I am distraught that my admittedly disparaging comments about the seminary theologians were distorted by you to state that I “detest” them.
Let me categorically state that I have every admiration for Adventist academics, count many of them as my dearest friends, and find them dedicated, devoted and delightful.
They are underpaid and under appreciated.
As to Andrews, located in the backwoods bario of Berrien Springs. So tantalizingly close to cosmopolitan Chicago, but so dismayingly distant, in actuality. Living in an “Adventist ghetto” is so isolating and claustrophobic.
I have every admiration for those having to endure a Michigan winter in this hick town!
Plus, I am in AWE of those valiant nine who voluntarily demoted themselves to “Commissioned ”
Yes I have read the latest diatribe THREE times, each time noting the multiple footnotes where they quote themselves, a surefire diagnosis of an
INBRED group. As to my designation “AGING” is anyone of them under thirty five?
Does any member of the panel have gay/lesbian children?
Is ANYONE in contact with a real LIVE LGBT individual?
Their entire diatribe is a dismal rehash of their previous seminar and the
Cape Town fiasco.
DETEST? No. DISAPPOINTED. Yes!
Robbin,
I was born at an early age in Niles MI while my father was a student at Emmanuel Missionary College. I spent my early years in the “Adventist ghetto” that you disdain. Yes, the winters can be messy. Yes, there are not very many good restaurants nearby. Yes, once you get beyond the AU campus there are not very many cultural opportunities.
Now let me say that some of the experiences that have shaped my views on sexuality occurred in that “Adventist ghetto”. I was sexually abused by teenage girls when I was pre-school age. I experienced unwelcome advances from “gay” Adventist young men in Fabian Meier Hall. I witnessed many sad things including suicidal depression among my peers in that community.
No, all is not well in that “Adventist ghetto” nor in the other “Adventist ghettos” in North America. I could write a very long treatise about all of the sordid things I have witnessed and experienced within the greater Adventist community. I could write a long treatise about all of the sordid things I have witnessed and experienced outside the Adventist community as well. All is not well in the Adventist church nor in the world around us. We are all broken people in a broken world.
My respect for the dignity of people who have shred their lives and feelings with me, prevents me from offering specifics in response to your rants. But you are not the only one who has experienced or witnessed pain.
Have you experienced the healing power of…
Have you experienced the healing power of forgiveness?
(Am I the only one who detests the VERY annoying proclivity of this web site for truncating comments that did NOT exceed the character count? Could someone extend the courtesy to those of us who take the time to comment here, of telling us what is the actual algorithm for truncating what we write? Before we click the Post Comment button?)
Regarding the authors of this paper:
1) I have many close friends and relatives in said “hick town”. Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. For me it is the people who really make the place. And despite the bad things that have happened in “hick town” there are a LOT of good people there, not perfect people but good people nevertheless. And you might be surprised how many people from Chicago which you seem to regard more favorably, have second homes or retirement homes in Southwestern Michigan. Apparently they have discovered something there that you have overlooked? And did I fail to mention that for those looking for more cultural opportunities, an alternative university (Notre Dame) is almost in the “back yard” of Andrews (or perhaps the other way around)?
2) Regarding the friends and relatives of Seminary professors in general and the contributors to this paper in particular, your assumption that these people have not been exposed to the full gamut of life experiences is ignorant and uncharitable. I will not delve into any details but I know whereof I speak.
3) Regarding being “inbred”, you need to understand that Seminary professors live in a “fishbowl” under constant scrutiny from everyone form Ted Wilson on down, and from skeptics of every stripe and venue. Unless you have lived close to these people you have no clue how much pressure from all directions they experience. But they are NOT inbred in their personal or professional…
Apologies for more Russian Roulette with the commenting engine 8-(.
4) Regarding “aging” Seminary faculty. You are correct that they hire few if any really young faculty. There is a very good reason. Given the demands and responsibilities of their jobs, almost all of the men and women they hire, have had substantial pastoral experience, along with their academic credentials. One cannot accumulate the kind of experience they are looking for, and be as young as you might propose. Do you realize how much of the more difficult and challenging life experiences good pastors encounter?
Truly good pastors engage in the lives of their fellows believers and unbelievers. They encounter the pain – up close and personal and in ways that those who have not been there may not appreciate. And the Seminary faculty include many truly good pastors who continue to seek opportunities to pursue their calling, beyond their “day jobs”. Including some of the authors of the paper you detest.
Disclaimer – I am the son of a pastor and the father of a pastor. From childhood my eldest son heard from many people that he should consider the Gospel Ministry as a vocation. He always said NO WAY. In his teens I once asked him why not? He replied very emphatically, that he did not want to have to spend his life dealing with other people’s problems. God changed my son’s mind.
“Gay teens who are rejected by their families have a suicide rate EIGHT times that of their heterosexual cousins and siblings.”
Does the Seminary paper advocate that families reject their homosexual relatives?
“The Andrews brand of Adventism is TOXIC to our gay/lesbian offspring.”
You have just shot-down your own straw-man.
It is clear that your response to mere mention of this paper is indeed toxic. Possibly more toxic than the paper itself?
“Most would be better off if born into accepting Atheist homes.”
So are you saying that God is toxic to gay teens? Whereas Atheism is not?
Ironically, there may be more truth here than in the rest of the paragraph. The Bible makes it clear that Holiness is toxic to Sin. So if you stop here, we all would be better born Atheist.
But if we take this one step further, the Bible also makes it clear that Sin is toxic to Life. God hates Sin because Sin destroys Life.
So who is really better-off? The Atheist or the follower of Christ?
“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
Jim, this exposes the church’s unguarded flank.
Anyone who’s been paying attention wouldn’t be so blase about using the word “change” willy nilly.
Change what? What will change?
Will gay people become straight? The world is littered with the corpses of people deceived with this promise and many more walking dead.
The church has never apologized.
Now is not time for sloganeering. When it comes to sexuality, we cannot play fast and loose with that word.
Holiness is toxic to sin. It’s this holiness?
——-
Then came the physical torture: forcing his hands into ice while showing him pictures of men touching men, wrapping his hands in coils that heated up painfully when he saw images of men hugging, showing him gay porn and giving him electric shocks.
Several suicide attempts later, Brinton, the son of Southern Baptist missionaries, realised he had only one viable option if he wanted to carry on living.
“In the end I had to lie and say I was cured just to get out of it,” he said.
SOURCE: The Guardian (UK)
———
If the choice was between this kind of “holiness” and atheism, which would you choose?
Jim, respectfully I’d like to suggest that you know not of which you speak.
Or put another way, you have a lot to learn.
Another straw-man set-up and knocked-down.
I am discussing the Seminary paper reported on this web page. You seem to be discussing things that are not in this paper. You can find no end of evil and abusive practices in the history of humans, including the present. But unless these are advocated in the Seminary paper they have absolutely no bearing on the validity of said paper.
Are you claiming that Seminary professors are secretly torturing homosexuals, or advocating or endorsing such treatment?
Jim, there is nothing in this paper. That is the point.
It’s an intellectual exercise.
You were directly confronted by Mr. Vandermolen about the effects of poor anthropology, nonexistent empathy and negative attitudes in religion towards people who are LGBT–and you failed to engage him.
Instead you defaulted to cheering on religion and bashing atheism.
There is a reason he says that religion has failed to acquit itself. This is what it looks like and you have to face it if you’re going to make such bold claims about religion’s preparedness to handle the issue.
Gay children are NOT safe in a religious environment if it drives them to suicide–which it often has; and you need to say that.
Sorry but I simply do not buy the argument that because some religious people have abused gays, therefore all religion is bad.
Just as I do not buy the argument that because some gays have made unwanted sexual advances, therefore all gays are sexual predators.
The Seminary paper tries to address the not so simple question of how organized Adventism should relate to gays, given that we (yes I am an Adventist) claim to follow the Bible as our primary source of religious authority.
Since you will not accept the premise that the Bible is an authoritative source of Divine revelation regarding (among other things) human conduct, then to you a paper that contains a serious attempt to explain what the Bible teaches regarding human sexuality, is “nothing” but an “intellectual exercise”.
You have yet to explain what specifically in the paper (as opposed to other places you allude to) is driving gay children to suicide.
I do not buy your “guilt by association” argument, regarding Religion, the Bible, or the Seminary professors who wrote this paper.
“…Since you will not accept the premise that the Bible is an authoritative source of Divine revelation regarding (among other things) human conduct…”
—————–
Say no more. Lol. Interesting.
Yes Jim,
I ABSOLUTLEY am saying that it is a TOXIC god who tells our gay/lesbian teens “they voluntarily chose to be gay” and that they can “pray the gay away”.
It is TOXIC to inform young teens that their future is life-long loneliness and a lower standard of living. While their straight brothers and cousins are marrying female anesthesiologists, attorneys, and accountants enjoying double incomes, one loss of a future job might result in homelessness, with no partner fo buffer economic calamity. Plus the interminable LONELINESS
It is a toxic god who says no biological,offspring for you, while gay male couples are having babies by surrogates, and lesbian couples resorting to artificial insemination to produce loving children.
You state that the seminary does not tell families to reject their teens, but labeling Adventist gay offspring as “immoral” does have that effect in Fundamentalist families.
Please take a week to attend a KINSHIP campmeeting where participants shake with SOBS when recounting their rejections by family, congregations, and Adventist schools. Or read Dr Reneé Drumm’s doctoral dissertation replete with such accounts!
Many of the homeless teens on our streets, have been cast out of “Christian” families for the ” biblical” reasons.regurgitated in this paper.
YES! Loving, embracing accepting supportive,ATHEIST parents would be less TOXIC. ASK KINSHIP MEMBERS OR RENEÉ DRUMM
Again, you are trying to pin things on me and others that we never said or wrote.
Where have I ever claimed that most gays “voluntarily chose to be gay” and that they can “pray the gay away”?
Or are you quoting from the Seminary paper?
Or are you simply projecting your own anger on anyone who disagrees with you?
I could tell you horror stories about abuse suffered by Yours Truly and others in my youth, suffered at the hands of “godly” people. Leaping from this first-hand anecdotal evidence to the conclusion that all or most “godly” people are abusive, is a totally unwarranted conclusion.
David Koresh was once an Adventist. David Koresh collected and arsenal of firearms and a harem of women. Therefore Adventists collect firearms and women. Yes or no? (FYI – for me David Koresh was not just a news headline. One of my former friends died at Waco.)
So let me offer my own rash generalization about homosexuality, based upon the foregoing line of reasoning.
As it happens, on two different occasions in different rooms in an Adventist school dormitory, I was the recipient of physical advances by “gay” young men. In both cases they reached under the covers of my bed and one actually managed to get his hand on my fly.
Now I will confess that I did admonish these two young men that I did not appreciate their solicitous behavior, and they had best not repeat it.
For your part, Robin, would you at a minimum concede that they were probably not the best good-will ambassadors for the Adventist “gay” community?
Now would it be a warranted or an unwarranted conclusion on my part, that all young Adventist gay men are looking for opportunities to practice their own form of “conversion therapy” on vulnerable heterosexual young men?
No, I do not hate gays. But I will confess to viewing those two particular young men far less charitably after what they tried to do to me.
In the interest of “fair and balanced” reporting, I also knew girls who had to resist unwanted asexual advances from young men. And I once had to resist unwanted sexual advances from two young women whom I met on a Greyhound bus, a car salesman who tried to fondle me, etc. The inability or unwillingness to control sexual urges, is rampant and does not discriminate based upon gender or sexual orientation.
PS – Age does seem to act as a bit…
Jim, a major theme in this discussion here from many participants is the idea that people who are LGBT can “change”. What “change” is is never defined, but history tells us a lot as to what that most likely means in religious circles.
In fact, we don’t even have to go back in time. Right here in this discussion we have people talking about the “sin” of “homosexuals”–never mind that homosexuality is an orientation and not a behavior.
I neither claim nor believe that people have the ability to change their sexual orientation, although I believe that we must make some allowances for learned behaviors as well as inherited tendencies.
“Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.”
These words from God delivered by the prophet Jeremiah, apply to ALL humans regardless of sexual orientation.
I do believe that God has the power to do things that humans cannot do. I do not profess to have any formulaic explanation for when or how or why God chooses to exercise His power. But I refuse to deny that God can do what God chooses to do.
I am NOT advocating “pray the gay away”. That idea is based upon the flawed premise that if we would just pray harder we could coax God to do things that God is otherwise disinclined to do. Praying (like any other religious exercise) with the intent of averting God’s wrath or gaining God’s favor, is paganism.
Praying with a heart of gratitude for what God has done and is doing and promises to do, is the basis of genuine religion.
However claiming a “promise” that is not found in the Bible (eg that God will change one’s sexual orientation), is expressing our human wishes which God may or may not chooses to honor.
But Jim, many people right in this thread do not appear to understand the concept of sexual orientation and yet others seem to reject the idea altogether.
Again, turning our attention to the Seminary paper that is supposed to be the topic of this web page, I do not see where that paper denies sexual orientation of espouses shunning gays or “pray the gay away”.
It does affirm the clear teaching of the Bible on this question, which some commenters here clearly resent.
Now there are some other teachings of Jesus that apply to sinful humans of all flavors. Consider, eg
“With humans this is impossible but with God all things are possible.”
On the one hand I affirm what human science affirms, that most people are born with a particular sexual orientation and that there is no known human way to change what seems innate.
On the other hand I affirm that the power of God knows no scientific bounds, and that God can choose to do things that human science consider to be impossible.
Talk about 4% separation removed from reality. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming that you actually believe what you just wrote/said. Courtesy=Bill Buckly
I think Paul did understand how much trouble his teachings would cause. If you read the Book of Acts, you will find that Paul’s teachings caused considerable trouble both for himself and for those around him.
For example Paul’s teachings against idolatry caused a lot of trouble for Demetrius and his guild of Silversmiths in the district of Ephesus.
The teachings of the Bible have always caused trouble for those who do not wish to follow God; in many cases also trouble for those who did choose to follow God.
Joseph’s refusal to yield to Potiphar’s wife cause him trouble. The two strangers who came to rescue Lot from Sodom caused him trouble. The actions and teachings of Jesus caused trouble for Him and for His followers.
“In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” (Jesus Christ)
The Law of Moses invaded bedrooms several thousand years ago.
A fair case can be made that Moses established the Seventh Day Adventist church in the Middle East. He taught a whole nation to keep the Sabbath and look for the coming of the Messiah, long before Joseph Bates and Ellen White.
So what Dr Taylor “sees now” is what Moses and Paul and the Seventh Day Adventist church have taught for a very long time.
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” (Jesus Christ who rose from the dead)
It is amazing that not only is political history revised, Adventists also have their own “revisionist history.”
Christians are NOT under Moses’Law, part of the First Covenenant; but are living in the New Covenant with Christ as our guide, not Moses. All Adventist Christians, daily, trample on Moses’ Law but are very selective in “picking and choosing” which of the 613 should be observed today.
All of the NT writers, especially the Gospels, revised OT history of their own particular purposes; a method followed in many way by Adventists.
Matthew 5 (CHRIST in the sermon on the Mount):
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We quote it over and over again.
Galatians 3:29 “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
We are Christians and do believe in the BIBLE. We definitely agree that many Adventists derive history and Sound Doctrine for their own particular purposes; case in point as absolute reference.
Your point is…?
Please give a Bible text that states that BEING homosexual is a sin.
The Bible distinguishes between temptation and sin.
Included under the category of temptations would be heterosexual or homosexual lust for someone out side the realm of Biblical marriage. Was it wrong for me to desire my wife before we married? Was it wrong for me to desire some other woman or man? At what point does desire become sin?
Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. If temptation is sin then Jesus was a sinner.
The Bible does not promise that God will remove temptation in this life. The Bible does promise that if we draw near to God, God will draw near to us. And only in that way will the Devil flee from us.
It is very important we remember that Christ not only invaded the bedroom, but also the minds of would be lovers in Matthew 5:27-28.
Also, when it comes to an engaged heterosexual couple in the church, or just an unmarried couple; how can anyone know with a certainty whether or not that couple fornicates?
Heterosexuals are called out just as much for their expression of the sinful nature as homosexuals are. In fact, the plethora of verses that exists against adultery and fornication are much more abundant than the seven or so verses which speak against homosexuality in the entire Bible.
If the God of the NT is so much different and loving than the God of the OT, then, can anyone please explain to me the meaning of Acts chapter 5?
When it comes to an engaged heterosexual couple in the church, or just an unmarried couple; how can anyone know with a certainty whether or not that couple fornicates?
Also, Paul’s admonishment for women to submit unto their husbands, as the church unto Christ, might be perceived by some as a bad thing. However, lets not forget his words to husbands in Ephesians 5:25-33. Paul spends twice as many verses admonishing husbands, way more than he does on wives!
The fact that most men (unsanctified men, both believers and unbelievers), choose to treat their wives like dirt is not a bad reflection on Paul’s admonishment to women. The fact that bad men use those verses as an excuse for their evil behavior is on them, not on…
If the Bible calls something a sin, and that something happens to be condemned in the Bible as a sexual sin, then that is exactly what it is!
The Bible is condemning adultery and lustful thought and homosexual acts. That blanket covers us all, whether we agree with it or not, and regardless of our sexual orientation.
Lets us always remember that no sin us above another, and that God’s love and grace covers us all, too; regardless of sexual orientation.
“I see that “official” Adventist theology has now invaded bedrooms to determine who is and who is not a practicing gay individual.”
It is an absurd statement. The church must define sin by way of the bible and make it clear that no one practicing sin will be admitted as a member. This is not so ambiguous that it is beyond the ability for anyone to understand exactly what it means.
Neither does the church come to people’s homes or other places to “spy” to see what they are doing. We don’t have “church cops”, nor “Church spies” to check up on everyone in their personal life.
None the less, this does not prevent the church from identifying sin, and state that open and willful unconfessed sin will not be tolerated in church members who “flout” their evil and demand acceptance.
Many try to convolute the issue to create some ambiguity that is totally unnecessary and beyond common sense.
“no one practicing sin will be admitted as a member”
Really?
Your church either has no members or it is full of delusional hypocrites. There has only been one human in the history of the entire Bible who could truly claim to be sinless – Jesus Christ the God-man.
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
“I can visualize m granddaughter’s generation rolling their eyes”
Mine not only roll their eyes but add a few choice remarks as do their parents. This could never make young people eager to join or to stay in the church.
Originally I thought that nothing in this document could be new. After all, for decades the only response from the church was to issue a “position statement”– dry and senatorial.
I’m pleased by the attempt to be pastoral here although on a whole I don’t expect the church to make any significant headway in this matter.
I don’t consider our church to be very pastoral by nature. We’re very cerebral but haven’t been too strong on the pastoral end in my opinion.
I’m also shocked by the poor understanding many have of sexual orientation and worried by the eagerness of many to reject science and substitute their own muddy anthropology all under the guise of it being “biblical”.
Repeatedly we have people referring to “the acts” or “the sin”. Being gay or straight for that matter has nothing to do with “acts”. A proper understanding of sexual orientation would eliminate this error in thinking.
More importantly, sex and possible “acts” are never the first thing that comes to mind when talking about “normal” (straight) people and the church.
We never say things like: “We must support single moms while not condoning the sin” or “We must welcome visitors to our churches… While being clear about sin” or “We’re going to open a food bank at church to reach out to the poor… While not condoning their sin.”
Being straight is no more automatically attached to sin than being gay.
Or to put it simple: like Elaine said, stop assuming you know who’s having sex and who’s not.
Be at least as humble about it as you are towards straight people.
Science (eg biological and anthropological studies) can demonstrate that many behaviors are “natural”. This list would include homosexuality and heterosexual promiscuity, as well as homicide, infanticide, and other forms of violent behavior. These behaviors have been widely practiced throughout recorded history and even pre-history. Some of the oldest unearthed skeletons have been found to be victims of murder by various means.
Science cannot tell us whether behavior is right or wrong, only whether behaviors are common or uncommon.
On the other hand, the The Bible is full of commentary on what is right or wrong. One can safely assume that most Biblical proscriptions on various forms of human behavior, were directed at actions that were sufficiently prevalent to warrant proscription.
One clear message of the Bible is that what may feel Natural may not always be Right.
Sin is a religious term and the Decalogue plus all the many other laws, define sin at that time under a theocracy.
The Decalogue also has civil laws defined as sin. Today some are incorporated in civil or criminal laws and punished under those codes. But no one today living in first world (civilized nations) would be prosecuted for breaking the first four commandments of the Decalogue as they were written for a theocratic system.
A few Muslim and Hindu nations have their own theocratic laws; some of which are very similar to Moses’ Law.
What are “Right” and “Wrong” behaviors are made to define sin in religious groups as well as civil governments. But they are not necessarily sins or punishable by governments.
“stop assuming you know who’s having sex and who’s not”
I totally agree with this observation. We are not called to snoop into the sex lives of others.
But when people choose to “go public” about their private lives, which is becoming rampant among homos and heteros and bis, there is no need to snoop. In the waning days of Sodom and Gomorrah and Greece, people flaunted all kinds of sexual perversions. And in the waning days of modern Western society we are descending the same slope.
And make no mistake, flaunting overtly sexual behavior in public IS a perversion. Sex was intended to be consummated in private, not on TV or movie or cell phone screens.
It is amazing that not only is political history revised, Adventists also have their own “revisionist history.”
Christians are NOT under Moses’Law, part of the First Covenenant; but are living in the New Covenant with Christ as our guide, not Moses. All Adventist Christians, daily, trample on Moses’ Law but are very selective in “picking and choosing” which of the 613 should be observed today.
All of the NT writers, especially the Gospels, revised OT history of their own particular purposes; a method followed in many way by Adventists.
More heteos (usually celebrities) are very open and vocal about their sex lives. Ditto for homos. But where in a church have you experienced gays being “public” about their sex lives? Are hetero weddings not saying something about their (future, or current) sex lives?
“where in a church have you experienced gays being “public” about their sex lives?”
Yes. Though I will not say when or where.
“Are hetero weddings not saying something about their (future, or current) sex lives?”
Yes. I myself have only encountered “celibate marriage” in the Second Nun’s Tale. And when I read that particular Canterbury Tale, I vowed that I would never marry such a woman. I do NOT have the gift of celibacy.
You’re whole post is double talk and drivel. But very typical of those who want to obscure the issue as much as possible. So, as the saying goes, “If you can not dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your baloney.”
People do a good job of this on this subject especially and many other topics as well.
I am aware that in using the term “pastoral” the writer was using the word to call for a more compassionate, Christ-like/spiritual type leader. I want to go in a different direction and call for more churches to have less full-time Pastors, so that they can ALL be more “pastoral” in their responses to real needs in society. We need more bi-vocational pastors who are equipped to do more than preach.
Without a doubt, some churches will always need full-time vocational pastors and church staff. I am not suggesting all pastors, even the majority, should go bivocational. But I do believe more should consider this path. The reasons, beyond the obvious financial savings it would bring are:
A secular or marketplace job will put many in the middle of culture on a regular basis. Opportunities to develop relationships with non-believers will be greater. Opportunities to minister to people who would not set foot in a church will be greater as well. Bivocational ministry is a clear and definitive trend in church life.. It is a great opportunity to make a greater difference in this culture in which we live. Full-time pastors and church staff often get missionally stale in their “holy huddles.” Perhaps the best way to break out of that Christian-only huddle is to be employed in a secular position. A bivocational pastor or church staff can have greater freedom than a person in a full-time role to be more sensitive to the needs of those who need a pastoral response that is Christ-like.
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the…
What is your point?
Ephesians 5 protects the various bodies as we come together as one. To assume that GOD placed protections and we do not need them is vain. To assume that one is stronger than evil is vain. To assume the draw of the world is not strong is vain.
Why now all of a sudden, do we wish to remove all of these protections commanded of us in all of Ephesians 5? Especially in the time that we are in; or maybe is it because of the time we are in? Are things better in the times we are in? We made them.
Maybe we should let HIM make the times to come? I am sorry, but HE will anyway. Maybe we should just follow HIM and stop trying to justify things that are not of HIM or those not in HIM?
Just some thoughts.
“What is your point?”
Solomon says, “A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.” Actually, the point was obvious.
And a fool is quick to throw a Bible verse in condemnation of others because they are filled with foolishness.
“And a fool is quick to throw a Bible verse in condemnation of others because they are filled with foolishness.”
Where is that in the BIBLE William?
Charity,
Some people think attacking others with accusations of foolishness will convince them when it just makes the author repulsive. Others think just throwing Bible verses at people without connecting them to an observation or point makes sense and communicates what is in their mind.
More pastors would be profited by spending more time in grad studies in psychology and mental and emotional health; marriage and family counseling They will be called far more often to offer ministry in these areas than Hebrew or Greek, which is far less needed.
Elaine again makes a most appropriate comment. Some appropriate education on this topic might greatly benefit those who seem to be getting their information from a 1st Century AD writer who had some real psychological hangups about sexual issues. This writer also seems to have had no problem with slavery. (He also could have used a good editor)
The day we stop calling sin by another name it is not sin anymore. If you are tolerant of one you are suppose to accept all others. LGBT movement is an act of Sin. So we need to stop nicing it up and call it what it is. This is Jesuits infiltration of the Church, allowing all these documents to be pass. Where are God’s chosen people? We need to go back to our foundation. We are going to end up like the Jews.
I’ll give you an even greater danger to be concerned about: people who claim to be followers of Jesus, but who are failing to embrace the gift of the Holy Spirit that Jesus wants us all to receive so we can be empowered to minister redemption to those who are trapped in sins such as homosexuality. By being focused on identifying and condemning sin we most often just hiding our own lack of connection with God that leaves us just as securely trapped in sin as the people we are accusing. By being empowered by God we draw attention to the victory God offers us and sin is illustrated by contrast because people are being drawn away from it to God.
Proverbs 26:
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Proverbs 28:
26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
Job 2:
9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Isaiah 32:
5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.
6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.
Why do you sound like Job’s wife; the unaffiliated temptress? Why do you trust in your own heart? Why do you think you can replace GOD’s Laws? We know what liberals are. We will call sin what it is; sin. We see how the world has already rubbed off on many, drawing them away from GOD.
Unless Charity is your given name, it is a false pseudonym. Charity is another word for love as used in the Bible, but seems to be missing by your comment.
This would assume that you could conceive or even comprehend what Love is. This would require that you were commanded to Love as CHRIST; but you were not. Love is to provide when and what is needed.
I do not see you sacrificing your life for others; you are not commanded to. But I do see many who have. Do you not appreciate HIS Sacrifice in Love? Do you not appreciate the sacrifice of the many who were commanded in such; by HIM?
Do you now wish to expect Love and also derive the definition? What does this teach our children? How does this fulfill any of your responsibilities in Titus 2 or meet the requirements of your chaste conversations coupled with fear in testimony? Did you ever think you are the problem and maybe HE is the answer? Not this world or its very small base of knowledge?
I agree with Elaine because the primary message in your postings is telling others how wrong they are and how right you think you are instead of sharing from your experience with God so that others will be attracted to His amazing love and transforming power.
No William; Scripture is posted and we let HIM do the talking as commanded. HE does it much better than we ever could.
You are here and able to post; even with the seemingly insurmountable efforts required to allow that to happen. If that is not proof of HIS absolute Love for us; nothing is. Maybe you should use this great and continuing privilege for HIM? Maybe you could tell everyone HE is the answer?
Charity,
Jesus never told us to throw scripture at others. Instead, he told those who had been touched by the power of His love to tell others what God had done for them and it was the power of their testimony that drew people to God, not how much they knew from scripture or how many verses they could throw at someone that changed hearts and persuaded minds.
Since there is nothing in your postings about the power of God at work in your life or telling of your experience with God, should a reader not logically conclude that you have never been touched by His love and remain unchanged by His redeeming power? That you have a form of godliness but none of the power of God that identifies believers? That you are full of spiritual theory but empty of practical application? Are you not demanding of others what is absent in you?
If you want to know why the church is growing so slowly in places like North America and many churches are dying, look in the mirror. Throwing scripture at people without sharing from your experience and criticizing them makes Jesus very unattractive.
Luke 17:
1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
We do not run a social club; we bring Souls to HIM. We watch out for the little ones you wish to lead astray. We do not tell them what they want to hear; but what they need to hear.
The Church is dying because of you and your continuing rebellion against HIM.
2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Charity,
You wrote: “The Church is dying because of you and your continuing rebellion against HIM.”
You must have a low regard for truth because it is obvious you haven’t been to my church. It is growing and I’m helping it to grow!
“We are going to end up like the Jews.”
That may be because Adventists brought so many Jewish and non-Christian doctrines in to the church which were never given to Christians as recorded in the NT.
Why return to burdens that even the Jews could not obey? Read the apostles instruction to gentile Christians in Acts, and most of Paul’s letters. They were never instructed to obey the Jewish Law.
““We are going to end up like the Jews.”
Elaine, you go on and on attacking the bible with some typical apostate Protestant spirituality that assumes we go beyond the law and are now into the gospel. The new testament is not some “new” religion unheard of before Jesus came.
Millions of believers in the old covenant period were well aware of Paul’s statement, “the law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.” This was no “new” revelation unknown until Jesus came.
It was “new” to the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, but not “new” to people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But you articulate the same old tired doctrine that has no affinity to either the old or new covenant. When Jesus came, He simply restored the true understand of salvation, not create some new one.
So the Jews had developed a “Christless law” and were self deceived. Just so today, people like yourselves have developed a “lawless Christ” that is just as foreign to bible Christanity as any faulty mistake made by the Jews in Jesus day.
You are not “highly enlightened” but sadly deluded.
Bill,
I must confess: I criticize your use of EGW; but overall, I do agree with your views and comments.
“It was “new” to the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, but not “new” to people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Nor was it new to Job and the Prophets.
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Matt.5:17.
What part of the Law needed to be fulfilled? Or what does Christ fulfill in regards to the Law on our behalf? These are the questions which most people struggle with, and that is why some think the Law no long applies, or was done away with.
What I find very interesting, is that so many are quick to condemn God’s Laws, or His perfect way of Life, that they neglect to see that these are also Laws: Step off that cliff and you will die; Lie in the sun for too long and you will burn to a crisp; Deny God’s leading in your life and you will perish; and much more.
“Bill,
I must confess: I criticize your use of EGW; but overall, I do agree with your views and comments.”
Daniel, for the most part, I simply parrot the same spirituality as EGW. The lady forgot more than people on this forum will ever know. Many consider themselves “highly enlightened” and are simply led around by the nose by the devil. And like I said, “If the Jews developed a Christless law, then modern Adventism advocates a lawless Christ.”
Rome always considered Protestantism some “off shoot movement” that was very immature at best, and totally deluded at worst. All she had to do is sit and wait until Protestantism would “self destruct” by default.
God raised up the SDA movement to correct some errors of Protestantism and present a clear articulate bible doctrine of law and gospel that would prepare a people for Jesus to come. To date, all Adventism has done is flounder all over the bible trying to tell the world and each other just what “righteousness by faith” means.
So, they misuse EGW, the bible, and historic Protestantism and don’t have a clue as novices have risen to high levels of influence and authority, and the people are left in darkness and bewilderment as to what they say or mean.
How simple is this? If you can’t distinguish between the legal and moral aspects of God’s government, all you can do is fall all over yourself and blunder on and on in total confusion.
God will yet create a bible group who know the truth.
Elaine is quite correct in the depiction of SDAs as Jewish in mindset, based as it is on the so-called ‘great antitypical day of Atonement.’ This thinking led them back to the OT in every way possible, except for drinking of wine and idolatry. But the most dangerous result of this thinking is a continuation of the collective Jewish voice stated at Sinai after the issuance of the Decalogue: ‘All that the Lord has said, we will DO!’ This manifests in Adventism as a behaviourism which identifies those who are ‘sealed’ according to their law-keeping, ie, Sabbath. Bill, if this is not so, please explain why.
Jesus has radically turned this thinking on its head! Far from us ‘doing’ what God has said, when we are born of the divine Spirit, behaviour is a result, not a motive. ‘The Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.’ Jn 14.10 Far from representing a ‘lawless Christ,’ (which is a nonsense concept btw), it is the only true way divine law can be lived. ‘Love IS the fulfilling of the law.’
Bill,
Thank you for your response.
You wrote: “If the Jews developed a Christless law, then modern Adventism advocates a lawless Christ.”
Without re-reading the Gospels again, I’m not quite certain as to all the points in which the Jews developed a “Christless law”. However, to my knowledge, the SDA church appears to be advocating observance of the Law. I take that to mean the 10 Commandments. If the SDA church advocates righteousness by faith of Christ, then the Law, as stated in Hebrews 8:10-13, which, in the New Covenant between God and His people, is a demonstration of the out-poring of the Holy Spirit, is none other than Christ in us, (the New Creation) Who fulfills all the requirements of the perfect Law of God. Therefore, according to your statement that “modern Adventism advocates a lawless Christ” can only mean one thing: Righteousness by works only, without Christ. Is this what you mean?
Bretheren All,
It seems to me that we have to do some definition here. In the King James Version, Paul is rendered as saying “effeminate” and “abusers of themselves with mankind”. In the New King James Version as “effeminate homosexuals” and “sodomites”,and in the Revised Standard Version as “sexual perverts”. Was he referring to the same people referred today as gays,lesbians and homosexuals?
Next, are we talking about things people DO, or things people ARE? If we are talking about what people do, and what they do are wrong, then blame them for that; but if it is a matter of what people are,then, how can you keep them out of the kingdom? Some people are born MALE and others are born FEMALE(according to certain accepted criteria);but others, when they are born, no one can say whether they are male or female, according the same criteria! Some children are told that they are male, but they do not feel like male at all. Others are told that they are female; but they do not feel within themselves that they are female. Are these people evil, wicked, or confused? The parents now have a big problem; but it is obvious that these children have a much bigger problem. If they make the mistake to tell their problem to anyone, the problem is now highly magnified.
If one indulges in acts merely to satisfy curiosity or to identify with a cult or a clique, or merely to provoke my SDA fellows, then they m ay not be pardoned; but I trust God,who knows our frame,to…
to deal with us fairly, even when our anatomy and our psyche are not quite like those of the more accepted around us. People who feel victimised by the ignorance and self righteousness of others, must understand that God sees the heart, and will vindicate the cause of the honest soul.
My My, I’ve read every possible solution here re: homosexuality. Why are most of you hung up on “one sin”??
What is your sin?? What is my sin??. We are all sinners and
have fallen short of GOD’s glory. We are flesh and are born with a sinful nature, you can’t get around it, away from it, you are a sinner, everyone of us. Some of you talk as though you have no sin in your life, that you are perfect, God says otherwise. WE ARE ALL SINNERS, TODAY AND EVERY DAY. Otherwise the CHRIST would not have given His life. Precious blood and water flowed for your redemption.
The sexual demand is the strongest desire in mankind. Who can escape it. Who wants to escape it. None who are healthy and normal. Being homosexual is normal for those born to the desire for sex with those of the same sex. The Genetic markers predisposing of this behavior run the gamut of every percentage on the scale of sexual indication, and we are as we are, and we have to live with it. God does not specify “one sin” as more deadly as another, other than grieving God’s Holy Spirit.
All homosexuals desiring membership in all Churches of Jesus Christ, should be welcomed. They will not exhibit demeanors different than other members. They will not flaunt their sexual attitudes, as do some publicly, actually throwing it in your face for condemning them.
You have quite a few in your church now, but can only surmise their sexual preference. Some of you currently have Pastors who are Gay. God knows His own.
Mr. Hamstra, while I did not appreciate your sarcasm, you were correct in that I mistakedly attributed to the Greeks what should have been to Hamlet. But that does not negate the legitimacy of the analogy.
I think you would all benefit from reading Spectrum Magazine’s comment about this paper. Cheers.
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/10/15/viewpoint-adventist-seminary-has-trouble-getting-facts-straight-homosexuality-sta
Thanks jc. excellent article
Homosexuals are sinners who are going to hell with the perverted SDA Leaders who are dumb dogs who refuse to bark and call sin by its right name. Only overcomers will be saved. Homosexuality is an abomination. Repent and forsake it and be saved all you perverts.
Hi Petal,
Before I proceed I’d like to make it clear to you that I am a heterosexual who belives/backs up the Biblical stance on homosexuality.
Having said that, I will tell you this: shame on you for spaking so harshly against gay persons, with no love or soothing balm to offer burdened souls.
Your words are NOT guided by the Holy Spirit of God and they only serve to cause sorrow and shame. You offer no practical solution to this situation, other than “repent”. At the very least make the Gospel practical and show others how much God loves them and how eager He is to have a relationship with them.
Jesus shed His blood, He paid the ultimate price for those who you derrogatorily call “perverts”.
Please, examine your own heart and ask yourself this questions:
are you a pervert? (There’s quite an array of different perversions ALL SIN IS A FORM OF PERVERSION – FOR IT DEFACES THE IMAGE OF GOD IN MAN AND FURTHER SEPARATES US FROM HIM! YOU AND I ARE BOTH PERVERTS!)
Have completely erradicated all sin from your life?
If you do not allow God to work in you and live through you, then, will you not find yourself in the same lake of fire as all unrepentant sinners?
If a sincere gay person approaches you to know more about God and the Bible, how would you ever be able to witness to him/her, with that horrible attitude you hold towards them?
ALL SIN IS PERVASION BEFORE THE LORD!
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Can you sincerely claim, before God, that you gutless?
Can you with all integrity and peace of mind claim not to find yourself reflected in the above mentioned list?
Please, do not answer me. Just examine your heart before the Lord before showing no mercy to another burdened soul; for you are just as sinful as they!
I think that upon so hard core inner reflection, you might find yourself guilty of one or more of the seven sins above mentioned.
If that’s the case, then, do you realize what that means? You too are an abomination before the Lord!
As the apostle Paul said in Romans 2:1 (my modern translation) “You who accuse others need to be careful about how you do that because you’re doing the same things that you condemn others for doing!”
petal your comments may speak to how you feel but they are very harsh and hurtful. if you spoke like that to me i would not assume you were a christian.
all sin is an abomination so we are all abominable unless jesus covers for us and He died to cover all. He died for homosexuals and loves them and wants a relationship with them. i suggest you do some research into biology and pregnancy and womb hormones etc.
Let us entertain the possibility that the posting of “petal” is intended as a spoof to show us how unChristian is much of our discussion of this topic. What are the hints? First of all: Adventists do not believe in Hell. (Of perhaps, we believe with our liberal Catholic friends that Hell may exist, but you don’t have to believe that anyone is in it.) Second, calling SDA Leaders “dumb dogs.” No good Adventist would call one of our leaders “dogs.” Goodness! Thus the conclusion that this postin is a spoof.
What is so theologically advanced in this document – welcoming unconverted people to the Church and provide offices for them?
Because if a man still have inclination to smoke, drink, stilling or to use drugs or anything of this kind, that means the man is unconverted one.
Is this the plan to fill up our churches with unconverted people?
Nice.
Yudelis, you mean well, but with some who are without sin, hmmm, it is impossible for them to see themselves. James 4:1 “therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin”.
I am not a SDA, from what I see here on this forum it is a church to avoid if you are a Gay Christian.
Focal I am so sorry the SDA church seems so unloving! I am an SDA and do not feel that way against gay christians. I hope one day my church treats those with gender and sexual differences as equals with no discrimination. We discriminate against women so have a long way to go before we start treating everyone in an accepting manner. It is shameful and not at all how Jesus treated people and He is supposed to be our example.
You’re right, SDA Church is not for Guy “Cristian” as well as not for “Cristian” pornography, “Cristian” drugs and not for “holy stealing”.
Adventists are lifting up the God’s Law which strictly forbid all of these things.
And if someone seriously plans to go through the Last day Judgment he better stay away from transgressing of the Law of God.
May God bless you!
God loves all people and asks all people to repent from their wicked ways and follow him.
So it doesn’t matter whether or not our sin is greed, lust idolatry, being gay or lesbian etc. etc, what it does mean is that we all need to confess our sins and turn from them. There is no degree of sin and if we allow sin to persist in our life then we are not gong to spend eternity in heaven.
Please, study your bibles, God can show us the way.
Why can’t God heal the drunkard, the thief or the gay/lesbian?
Gods powers are limitless.
Thinking repentance is the cure for sin is to minimize or even ignore the importance of living in Christ. As baptism is just the public declaration of a person’s intent to follow Jesus and become a lifelong follower of God, repentance is just the first step in what should be a lifelong relationship. Victory over sin comes through the transformation that happens over time as we immerse ourselves in God’s love and forgiveness and experience His transforming power moment-to-moment, hour-to-hour and day-to-day.
Brian, being gay is not a sin. This is the official position of the SDA Church.
What people do not understand is what “gay” is.
“Brian, being gay is not a sin. This is the official position of the SDA Church.
What people do not understand is what “gay” is.”
Being “Gay” is a sin, just like being a murderer, liar, thief, adulterer,…..or any other evil condemned in the word of God. Show me a statement where the SDA church claims being Gay is not a sin.
From the Church position (1999) on homosexuality:
“He offered caring ministry and words of solace to struggling people, while differentiating His love for sinners from His clear teaching about sinful practices.”
IF you do or think it in the heart; it is a sin (Matthew 5, Mark 7, 1 Corinthians 6). Are you part of the class without either of these? If you commit sin you are its servant; but a servant does not abide in the house forever (John 8).
No, Charity.
1. A teen boy who gets butterflies when he sees a girl isn’t fornicating.
If he imagines having sex with her then he is fornicating in his heart.
2. A teen boy who gets butterflies when he sees another boy isn’t sinning either.
If he imagines having sex with him then he is fornicating in his heart.
This is the church’s official position btw.
It is often clumsily stated: there’s a difference between attraction and action.
Hope that helps.
And your point would be?
We are not talking about children or the privilege of innocence as such. You are definitely not a child with privilege.
As I have said before, being gay is not a sin and that is the official position of the SDA Church.
It specifically states that the church is against “relationships and practices” — not orientation.
Do you disagree with the church?
“The Just shall live by Faith” Romans 5:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
We do not pleasure in sin nor the thought of anyone being cast out. That is Love; telling them what they want to hear is definitely not.
How wonderful! How confusing! How revealing!
Before people make comments and pass judgement on the people they call gays or lesbians or homosexuals, it would be helpful,(especially to folks like me), if they define carefully whom,or what they are speaking about. If gays and lesbians make themselves what they are; or if they choose how they were born, I can see the case for shunning them or chastising them or calling on them to change; but if the case is that they were born with certain sex characteristics, or anatomical abnormalities or differences, why do we want to make demands on them that we do not make on ourselves,who think we are perfect?
And some of these righteous ones speak about heaven and salvation! For me, I would not want to spend one hour or one day with such righteous folks,neither in heaven or in hell. Some of you call on these people you despise to repent and to change. Has it ever dawned upon your conscience that you are the one who needs to change your judgemental and scornful ways? If the God and the Heaven you know about will support you in that kind of behaviour, then keep that Heaven and that God to yourselves and those who think and behave like you. Jesus taught us that the real God is kind and loving, and wants us to help the helpless,assist the widow and the orphans, feed the hungry, visit those in prison and heal the sick,etc,etc.
Very well said Nathaniel Moore!
But we within Holy Spirit and wisdom are taught to Love all.
Colossians 2:8 – “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
We are commanded to help the helpless, assist the widows and orphans. Are their needs sin? Do we condone murders to continue murdering then? Is this not the same wisdom?
1 Timothy 5:20 “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.”. Maybe if this had been done all along, we would not have this problem. Again and again, maybe if we taught our children within Titus 2 we would not have this problem. We dig the hole and complain about it. Never happy; but we never will be in the world and without HIM.
“And some of these righteous ones speak about heaven and salvation! For me, I would not want to spend one hour or one day with such righteous folks,neither in heaven or in hell. Some of you call on these people you despise to repent and to change. Has it ever dawned upon your conscience that you are the one who needs to change your judgemental and scornful ways? If the God and the Heaven you know about will support you in that kind of behaviour, then keep that Heaven and that God to yourselves and those who think and behave like you.”
Wow…..talk about “judgmental”. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? I suggest “that by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.”
Since you don’t want to be in heaven with those who defend God’s kingdom, God may well grant your wish.
Nathaniel,
Well said.
As one of my converted (formerly) homosexual friends testifies, he came to the point of accepting that he was what he was, then God touched him with His great love and told him, “But in my power you don’t have to stay that way because I can change you.” Those changes took years because he had much to learn, but he is no longer what he was and it was Christians who loved him because God loved him who helped him through many difficult times.
So in the Bible the gays were killed with fire and brimstone, and their dwelling-places still lie in ruins. However, nowadays we welcome them into the church? Wow. And are we going to ask each one “Are you practicing or not” before they enter and believe their answers. And of course this opens the door to gay pastors proudly coming out (is that’s what’s really behind all this?).
We definitely are at the end of the end times.
Does anyone remember when divorce and adultery were the disturbing sins at an earlier perios in the church? Sermons were preached and members were disfellowshipped because of those transgressions.
Now there’s a new sin the church has “discovered”: homosexuality.
In a few years, some here will find that they are guilty of another sin the church has decided to emphasize; it may be your particular sin. It may be pride coveting; making idols of possessions; or being too “worldly.” “Be sure the church will identify your particular sins.
And how well has all that worked out for you Elaine?
As the rest of us have to deal with the broken families, impact to the children and communities. To provide the massive amounts of support necessary to help as much as possible; but some things are not fixable. The massive amounts of child abuse, largely caused or allowed by the mother, creates perpetual issues; and in many cases repetitive. In this continuing environment, we can no longer even guarantee or provide you protection; well less support.
Can you help with any of this, or at least stop trying to make this worse? You are definitely not smarter than HIS PLAN; and have definitively proven such.
I would suggest we follow the Sermon on the Mount, not sin and teach others not to sin; or at least definitely not condone sin. But maybe you wish to be the least of the Kingdom?
So, where is your testimony about God working in your life? How are we to see that you have any experience with this love you talk about? That you have ever allowed the Holy Spirit to work in you? That you are allowing Him to work His plan in you?
We call the people making noise in a stadium fans because they are fanatics about those who are actually playing the game. If you want people to believe you, get in the game. Until we can see you’re there, you’re just a noise-maker.
This is not a game; it’s as real as it gets and you fix or offer nothing.
As real as it gets? Maybe on some other planet where your mind is, but not on Earth.
Testimony is what convinces people to believe scripture because it gives people tangible evidence that God really can do in them what He has promised. It entices them to live in the redemption and empowerment God offers. Rev. 12:11 says the saints “overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.” You condemn the sins you imagine are in others when you have no knowledge of them, you point no one to the redeeming power of God and have no testimony to offer to make anyone want to believe what you are saying. Then you still imagine just throwing long Bible quotes at them without specifically applying them to a topic will cause them to change?
No, you’re still a noisemaker. If you want to be relevant, get some experience with the power of God so you can share a testimony about His awesome ability to transform and redeem.
If you do not see the testimonies and works involved; then you are blind, unable to give up the world. I did not condemn sin; HE did. The BIBLE verses are self explanatory, the Holy Spirit should bring you into remembrance; if you let it.
Where is YOUR testimony about the power of God working in your life and lifting you out of sin?
2 Corinthians 1:
12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
Isaiah 8:
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Mark 6:
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Psalms 132:
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
“For it is written”, the greatest testimonies of all; by CHRIST and even against satan. Your works save others and convince them to believe in Scripture? You raise your head by your own choice; as others are commanded in Scripture to correct?
There has been three divorces experienced by my two daughters. Son is a bachelor.
So how do you believe I could have prevented those divorces? In one case, the pastor, a MFCC therapist advised that there should be a separation as their child was being harmed by the dischord. Legal divorce rather than separation gave joint custody; separation could not have achieved that. Their child is now thriving in academy and it was the best for all three.
The other daughter’s first divorce was necessary as their child was being verbally abused by the father and the constant put-downs was also affecting her for the worst.
The last was because the husband decided to live with another woman.
How many know the REAL reason for divorce which they condemn? If you haven’t seen the inside of such marriages, it is best to keep quiet rather than making them feel worse already.
Beautiful testimony Elaine. This is what we and the rest of the world miss. We see inside and deal with the results every day. Should we keep quiet; or maybe help someone else avoid the pain?
As long as you taught your daughters “To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”, provided Love and support to their husbands and prayed; there is nothing more we can do. CHRIST is there to pick up the pieces; HE is always there.
In your original statement and comparison; are you not proposing sin as the norm and good as the exception? Divorce is the starting baseline and continuing marriage is the exception? Should sin ever be the starting expectation?
We Love and appreciate you.
Charity,
You wrote (concerning my personal experience) that “It was a beautiful testimony.”
But at the end you question whether I am proposing sin as the norm and good as the exception’ and ask “should sin ever be the starting expectation?”
Please explain, as my my motto is the Serenity Prayer:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
It works for me.
In all three marriages, I expected and hoped for the best, never expecting divorce; there was no reason to.
It might come as a surprise to many readers, but Jesus has indeed promised all of us that God will change our sexual orientation.
“Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.”
The principles taught in this passage are highly relevant to the present topic.
1) Not knowing the Scriptures (willfully or ignorantly).
2) Not knowing the power of God (willfully or ignorantly).
3) Our sexuality is not the essence of our identity. In heaven we will know and be known, in a completely asexual society.
4) It will take an Act of God for humans to relinquish the gift of sexuality that was itself an Act of God. With humans this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
It is evident from numerous comments on this web page and elsewhere on the Atoday web site, that the Adventist “big tent” community encompasses a strong contingent of Sadducees. Not to mention our Pharisees and our Zealots and our Essenes and our Hellenists.
We hear least from the Essenes because of their penchant to withdraw into monasticism. But it is rumored that within their cloistered hallows, some Essenes peruse what is written here 8-).
Please give one example.
The questions in the paper includes … Did God create us this way? Can God change us?
God is sovereign so the answers are both, Yes.
However, Is an individual’s salvation dependent on that individual’s knowledge or behavior or will?
That is, can a person inherently, by reason of their acquired knowledge, by their achieved behavior management, or by their act of will position themselves to forgo salvation or to successfully embrace salvation?
That is, is one’s salvation ultimately up to each individual?
If the answer is, No, then the church in itemizing its membership qualifications based on what it considers sinful behaviors is deviating from the Gospel of Jesus.
And if the answer is, Yes, then the Creation is but an enterprise designed to by randomness create a class of creatures inherently worth saving.
Seventh-day Adventists will, of course, embrace the First Angel’s message with the rest of the world and turn from spiritual fornication as self-initiated salvation and embrace salvation independent of one’s self.
Seventh-day Adventists have for more than a generation abandoned baptism as recognition of one’s acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior, and brazenly repurposed baptism as the door to the church, opened by the minister and only upon the ‘candidate’ having self-declared universal and eternal commitment to the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
The result in part is this conversation.
“For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.”
Jim, the promise to be changed is AFTER our resurrection, not on this earth now.
Precisely my point, Elaine. Not all of God’s promises are going to be fulfilled in this life.
On the other hand, we limit God when we deny that God can make changes to us now.
And if in the life to come, we will be neither male nor female, but like the Angels, then though it may be hard for us to imagine here and now, our gender identity and our sexual orientation in this life, are not the essence of our identity.
Charity,
You wrote (concerning my personal experience) that “It was a beautiful testimony.”
But at the end you question whether I am proposing sin as the norm and good as the exception’ and ask “should sin ever be the starting expectation?”
Please explain, as my my motto is the Serenity Prayer:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
It works for me.
In all three marriages, I expected and hoped for the best, never expecting divorce; there was no reason to.
Nobody denies that God can change sexual orientation. God can do anything.
I never understand why people think that anyone is arguing that God is powerless. Nobody is making that argument.
The argument people are making is:
1. People who have actually changed sexual orientations are virtually nonexistent.
A gay man with a wife is still gay.
By the way, I’m not one who thinks mixed orientation marriages are impossible.
2. You cannot entice people with the promise:
“God may or may not change you now or in heaven.”
That is no message of hope.
Just as it’d be cruel to tell amputees “Don’t you believe in the power of God?” It’s the same for LGBT people.
We know sooo much!! Do we?? Mankind is not born equal!! Some
are born with excellent genetic heritage. Some brain damaged. Some to wealth. Some to poverty. Some to Christian families. Some to evil people. Some to healthy bodies. Some with no brain. Some to freedom. Some to slavery.
We believe God is perfect. Knows the end from the beginning. Never makes a mistake. Cast Lucifer out of heaven with a third of the angels with him. A third chose Lucifer instead of God. Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer so beautiful and talented, too intelligent?? Was God fair to Earth’s human family by permitting Lucifer access to them. The result being annihilation of many billions, while the end result is Lucifer being incinerated?? Is possible to kill a special created cherubim?? Or will God cast him to a Universe of losers??
What do we think we know. How much of the “written word” is accepted, though adlibbed by various voices and scribes in the countless retelling?? i believe that we definitely are looking through countless smoky lenses as there have been retellings of Holy Scriptura. What do we think we know????
Point well made … And while knowledge vanishes, Paul assures that faith will endure. As will hope, what we now call trust. And of course love is the inevitable socialization of faith and trust.
And yet we argue like knowledge is everything …
Revelations 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
We know what happens to the devil, for ever. Can you destroy a cherubim in soul (or any Soul); good question.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
We believe GOD is far to Loving to torment throughout eternity; but are the lost not cast into the lake of fire? Would he not be mad after being cast into the lake of fire? Was death and hell not already cast into the lake of fire? Maybe you raise a point; I wouldn’t want to be there with him, no matter how long.
Genesis 6:6 “And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
You are far to linear in your thinking. HE is the center of every picture, not others (especially satan). GOD does not make mistakes, we do. You can’t make someone Love you (cherubim or otherwise); it has to be a choice.
No different than us looking at our children and their actions as they grow. Is true Love always making an easy path or letting someone dig themselves out of their own hole; at least a little. We either serve HIM or not; there is no lukewarm. There are no excuses and HE will have the last word.
Do we know whether there were any psychiatrists, psychologists, or LBGT individuals on this committee? If not, it is merely a rehash of what theologians have produced with Bible texts but the human dimensions have been eliminated. Worthless.
It’s like a committee of wolves and sheep deciding what to have for lunch.
Praise the Lord! I was wondering how long it would take for the church to reiterate it’s biblical position and make it clear to the membership that Jesus the Christ must be our example in all matters. As the Family Ministries Director of the Southeastern Conference in Florida,I welcome this paper and its clarity on our position. Homosexuality the sin, homosexual the sinner. God sent His son to die for sinners, this includes homosexual, lesbians etc. Therefore, they should all have a place in the church and must feel welcome when they come.
Where sin is concerned, the sin of homosexuality should be treated as we treat the sin of adultery. If the adulterer turns from his or her lifestyle of adultery, then that person should be allowed to hold membership in the church and likewise, any office. The same thing should follow for the homosexual who has given up his lifestyle of practicing homosexuality. Let us not fall into the devil’s trap of categorizing sin. Sin is sin and the wages of sin is still death. Acts 2:47 tells us that the Lord adds to the church daily such as should be saved. No one has the right to bar anyone from the church of God. Judging is a form of blasphemy therefore, we should not play God and judge anyone. It is always better to err on the side of mercy, grace, and compassion than to err meeting out judgement. Three years ago we have introduced the Paradigm Shift in church growth and evangelism, under the caption “It’s All About Relationship”.
Dr…
As long as the church is free from all “practicing sinners” then “practicing homosexuals” are equal.
Are any members practicing pornography viewing; gossip; coveting; pride, judging?
God does not see categories of sin as man does. All sin is caused by selfishness. Have all divorced members been dismembered? All others listed above?
When all sin has been eliminated from the church it will need no pews! Close and lock the doors, all the members will have been translated to the pearly gates.
It seems you have very slight idea about what the church is.
It is not about some people sitting in the building and playing a church, it is about the HOLY people gathered together.
Yes, among members you probably can find anything you want – if you become judgmental.
But the point is if you pack the church with gays, drinkers, blasphemers and so one, that will not be the church, but rather gathering of sinners.
Cod’s church consists of the the holy people without spots and flaws.
That’s why E.WHite wrote that from some communities only 1/20th of membership will be saved.
May God bless you!
If the church is holy people gathering together, then I fear for what image of God they are presenting to others. I prefer to say the church is people gathering together to seek the holiness of God and to be changed into His image.
“the sin of homosexuality should be treated as we treat the sin of adultery.”
Why are those the only sins that should have “special” treatment? What other sins cease and members reach a sinless state. Do you know any members that are free from all sins?
Several decades ago adultery was the worst sin of all; today it is homosexuality; what next will be the “sin of the year”?
Elaine, you started the comparison of homosexuality and adultery as “the sin of the day” above.
1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Sin is sin, there is no special treatment; just an Advocate. Within such; those affected no longer fit within your crude classifications and terms. They are no longer what you call them.
Why would we want psychiatrists, psychologists, or LBGT individuals on a committee; for their worldly views? We do appreciate the input from such that are not of or no longer of the world. We Love others enough to want them out of the world.
You speak in spiritual theory. Where is your testimony about the power of God working in your life so that you have the experience to share with someone else about God’s redeeming power?
I just wondering.. In which way can you check if the man is a practicing gay or just dreaming of it? Is there any recommendation on it in that document?
You illustrate the futility of measuring sin instead of just administering God’s power to redeem.
It is not our privilege or responsibility to “administer God’s power to redeem.” It is our privilege and responsibility to demonstrate and testify to God’s power to redeem; but it is God Himself, through His Spirit, who administers His own redeeming power.
Every single person is a sinner,and will be until the day we die, and deserve death. Praise God, He suffered your death and mine to remove our death sentence. Paid the ransom for our freedom. Any single person who say they have no sin in their life is a fool, and a liar. There is no one worthy, not one.
When someone speaks about himself it might be true or might be not. But if he speaks about each and everyone without their permission, he is wrong by definition.
Only God knows everything and Him only defines who is sinner and who is not.
May God bless you!
That’s false. Jesus always said “Go and sin no more”. Having a falling nature with the propensity to sin is one thing. Sinning is another.
The lord says “Be holy for I am holy” —1 Pet 1:16
If you are sinning until the day Jesus comes, you will be lost. The church is teaching that lie these days. The bible does not:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. —1 JOHN 3:6
Make no mistake about it. If you don’t fix that twisted way of thinking, you will be lost. That’s not me passing judgement on any one. That is what the Bible teaches:
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; —HEBREWS 12:14-15
CristoVerdad,
Your statement assumes that it is possible for a person to immediately leave behind whatever sin has held control over them for an extended period of time when reality is most often quite different. Yes, God has the power to instantly release a person from sin and I’ve been eyewitness to Him doing that with drug addicts. I’ve seen a number of homosexuals converted by the power of God, but the healing process was a long-term work over the period of years.
A key word we often overlook in the command of Jesus to the woman taken in adultery is “go.” He is telling her to “go away” and leave everything associated with her old way of life so she can escape the temptation. This is reflected in 1 Cor. 10:13 which people often think is God’s promise of miraculous release when it actually is promising only “a way of escape” to get away from an overpowering sin. Escape requires running away and leaving something behind. The reason so many fail to overcome a besetting sin is they don’t leave it behind and escape to a place where they can be protected, supported and nurtured while they learn God’s way of living. It is when we cut our ties with past sin that we can begin learning God’s ways and become victorious over sin. Helping people do this requires people who have experienced God’s redemptive power, so our biggest challenge often is finding such people in the church where so many have a form of godliness but none of the power.
Ranking “sins” turns out to be a tricky business – which may be why we find little evidence in the Biblical record that the Greatest Light engaged in any such exercises, instead extending the same invitation to All.
Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Ranking is not our job; it’s HIS. But from the above we know where those that sin and teach others to sin rank. HE does extend the same invitation to all, we are not capable of inviting anyone; all we can do in our testimony is to show them HIS love in us and not create a stumbling block or occasion to fall, and judge such (Romans 14:13). In the end; we know many will hear “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).
Romans 1:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
With God there are but two categories: those still trapped in sin and those who are being redeemed from it. What I find in scripture is that God isn’t concerned about the behaviors we call sins, but instead is focused on curing the root problem of sin, our corrupted nature, that causes us to behave in various ways that are contrary to His character and creation. If we let Him deal with the sin that is in us, our behavior changes. But if we remain focused on dealing with specific behaviors we make it much harder for God to transform us. If we are focused on measuring the behaviors of others, then we have joined forces with Satan in condemning others instead of ministering the redeeming power of God.
1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We focus on curing the problem; but can’t fix anything. HE does that; as you state. We all fail and have an Advocate; but maybe not a crutch? Remember with HIM came Grace and Truth.
2 Corinthians 6:
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
A few verses above “what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” There is never justification to support, arbor or sanction sin; otherwise your contention is that you can resist it, while HE had to die because we could not. We are suppose to have sufficient of strength in conviction to know better; ergo are current problem and situation. Things definitely do not look great out there; we know why.
As an Adventist who is gay, I see my alma mater’s seminary position as a sociological move forward by its theologians from the 1950s to the 1970s, and that’s being gracious. What it may do is give people like me equal rights and protections within the SDA church corp when I admit I am gay. However, it is done with a very arrogant position that my orientation is inherently faulty, a propensity to sin, and that I was created unequal with my more “ideal” heterosexual believers from the start.
A post-Fall originated gay orientation leads fellow Adventists to believe that I “struggle” with this inclination to sin. In my lifetime experience, my orientation has not caused me to be promiscuous, etc any more than a straight person. The only spiritual struggle I’ve experienced with my gay orientation is what the church imposes on it. In chaplaincy we call this externally imposed spiritual struggle a form of “spiritual abuse.” I’m saddened to see the seminary give quick strong theological answers and turn a blind eye to plausible questions that do arise from the texts. While the Bible remains unclear about pre-Fall or post-Fall orientation, I’m led with answers from a better fruit of this mindset to my experience that my orientation is pre-Fall. From this it has rewarded me with a bright confidence in my self-worth, a wider acceptance for others not like me, and I can celebrate Christ’s handiwork in my life as part of who I am in God’s “ideally” diverse & wonderful Creation.
The church has a right to come to its conclusions. I just think that people who bind burdens on others must be willing to help carry it.
I don’t think the church is either willing or able to do so.
In fact I don’t even think the church knows the nature of the parcel.
Pre-fall Terry? Do you mean there was sin before there was sin?
What exactly does the bible teach about homosexuality? Is is the same message we should teach? Is is right for Seventh Day Adventists to present the homosexuality topic the same way the bible does? Is the bible right? Can we trust the bible? Is God right? Did He get all His facts right when He was addressing the homosexuality issue in the bible? Can we trust Him?
What a pity that in Adventism entered Sodom and Gomorrah!!!
Sodomy is a mortal sin, and sin you are officially entered into the church!!!
What would Ellen White said about this seeing baptizing sodomites and give them leadership positions?
Terrible sin you have done decomposing church!!!