A Proposed Letter of Apology to Pope Francis from the GC President
The comments feature has been turned off because a large number of comments have been made and some commenters have descended to personal name-calling and a completely disrespectful approach. Evidently many readers missed the fact that the headline begins with “Proposed” and there is a tongue-in-check element to this column expressing an opinion. — The Publisher
by Ervin Taylor, September 13, 2015: Readers of the Adventist Today web site and anyone living in Philadelphia who listens to or reads local media in or around that city may be aware of the recent mass mailing of a book, The Great Controversy, to 700,000 individuals living in that city or surrounding area. The mailing was intended to be coincident with a visit to Philadelphia, the “City of Brotherly Love,” by the current Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis.
As readers of Adventist Today will know, The Great Controversy is a 19th-century work based on an extensive editing of materials originally produced by and under the name of a co-founder of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, Ellen Gould Harmon-White (1837-1915). Like a wide cross section of many other evangelical and later fundamentalist Protestant authors belonging to a wide range of conservative Protestant churches in 19th- and early 20th-century America, White was very critical of the theology and history of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe. Obviously, the heritage she reflected went back centuries, based on the long-standing, intense hostility that existed between Protestants and Catholics beginning at the time of the Reformation and continuing down into the late 19th century in many countries in Europe before being transplanted across the Atlantic to the United States.
A regrettable part of that heritage was the continued affirmation of conspiracy scenarios concerning alleged attempts of Roman Catholics to establish some sort of political advantage, usually by some nefarious means in America. Anti-Catholic hostility was exacerbated during the 19th century because of the competition for employment with native-born Anglo-Saxon Americans due to the large influx of immigrants from Catholic countries in Europe, especially Ireland. It even had a 19th-century political expression in America with the formation of the anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant, anti-Jewish “Know-Nothing” political movement.
We can be encouraged that the organization which was responsible for the mailing of the Great Controversy volume was not the official Seventh-day Adventist Church. The organization was Remnant Publications, based in Michigan. However, the message that this mailing was clearly intended to communicate is an anti-Catholic message and the source of that message emanates from a part of the Adventist tradition. In light of this action on the part of members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, it is here proposed that the President of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church send the following letter or some version of it to the Pope asking for his understanding and forgiveness.
Here is a draft of the text of such a letter that would be written on the stationery of the General Conference of SDAs:
His Holiness, Pope Francis
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
Your Holiness:
It is recently come to my attention that certain misguided members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the United States have distributed a book, written by the co-founder of this Christian denomination, to many individuals living in the city of Philadelphia, prior to your upcoming visit to that city.
That book is entitled The Great Controversy. That volume was written in the 19th century at a time in the history of the United Sites when the relationship between Protestant and Catholic Christians was much less than ideal. Unfortunately, that book reflected various very regrettable negative aspects of that relationship. A predecessor of mine has noted that the anti-Catholic views that this book endorses have been “relegated to the ash heap of history” by current Adventist leaders and lay persons.
I currently hold the position of president of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and in that capacity I am writing to you to extend the apologies from a leader of one group of Christians to another, asking for your understanding and forgiveness for the unfortunate actions of a small number of members of the Christian faith tradition which I represent.
At a time when all Christians of good will should be seeking to come together to solve the serious problems facing our world, the actions of a few should not be allowed to confuse and disrupt that cooperation. It is in the spirit of that concern that this letter is being sent to you.
Please accept this apology in the name of all members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church who wish you and the church you represent the blessings of God.
Very Respectfully,
Ted N.C. Wilson
Really? Ervin you must had had some sort of lapse in writing this article. As much as I find the mailing of Great Controversy inappropriate, Brother Wilson or anyone representing the SDA Church has nothing to apologize for to Pope Francis.
There is a fundamental distinction to be made between an apology offered on behalf of an individual and one made on behalf of an institution. Above all, a good apology must be seen as genuine, as an honest appeal for forgiveness. Such apologies are usually best offered in a timely manner, and they consist of the following four parts: an acknowledgment of the mistake or wrongdoing, the acceptance of responsibility, an expression of regret, and a promise that the offense will not be repeated. All of these are missing in your letter from Brother Wilson to Pope Francis.
To acknowledge a transgression, seek forgiveness, and make things right is a complex act. Apologies are prompted by fear, guilt, and love—and by the calculation of personal or professional gain. They are shaped by culture, context, and gender. They can be self-serving or generous and high-minded. And when extended in public, they amount to performances to which different audiences react in different ways. This is not good advice to Brother Wilson or anyone who might take it upon themselves to be the collective conscience of the SDA church.
It’s late Ervin here in Southern California. Go to sleep and get some rest. Wake up tomorrow and write some good stuff!
Bro Ted could not apologize for issuing of the great controversy as he was the one who told us all to issue them.
True
Since it is the just the alleged proposed letter,let us wait for the real copy written on the official church letter head and published in the church’s print media.I personally don’t believe pastor Wilson can address the Pope as HIS HOLINESS.
Yes. “Dear Sir” or “Dear Mr Bergoglio” would be a more appropriate style of address.
Remember the Pope is also a government leader and diplomat, since the Vatican is a quasi-nation. The Holy See is a sovereign entity recognized by international law, consisting of the Pope and the Roman Curia. The Holy See is viewed as analogous to a sovereign state, having a centralized government called the Roman Curia with the Secretary of State as its chief administrator and various departments essential to administration comparable to ministries and executive departments. It enters diplomatic relations with states, and has Vatican City as its sovereign territory.
That’s not true. Ted Wilson endorsed and sent out the Great Hope ND told the people it was the GC.
Eld. Wilson certainly did not tell church members to flood the Philadelphia area with this book immediately before the arrival of Pope Francis. That is the work of an independent para-church organization. I think even Ted Wilson would not agree with what they did.
Sister White, herself, said our literature should be distributed like the ‘leaves of autumn’ [PM 368, 369]. should be distributed freely. And in case you have forgotten, the Catholic church has NEVER apologized for all it has done. And given half a chance, would do again. The pope still thinks that all Christians should pay homage and accept ‘guidance’ from the RCC. IF Elder Wilson does write such a travesty, remain assured, he will NOT be speaking for the Seventh-day Adventist member.
Too many seem not to know that for the first 1500 years of Christianity there was only one universal Christian church
All Adventists are part of Protestantism originating with Martin Luther. If you are an Adventist today because you had the good fortune to be born in a Christian country. Had you been born in most countries in the Middle East you would be a Muslim; had you been born in India you would either be a Muslim or Hindu. Your choice to be an Adventists was largely determined by your parents and place of birth.
Most people don’t truly “choose” their religious beliefs, but inherit them.
I am a person who did not inherit my religious beliefs. I was guided in a very real way by the Holy Spirit to the Seventh Day Adventist Church. No one in my family is an SDA. I started out not even knowing that Jesus died on a cross. I did not and do not have the intelligence to discern from the thousands of denominations and religions out there which one is the true one if there even was one. I did not even believe that there was a true religion but I was led by the Holy Spirit despite my shortcomings to the SDA Church. The reason why I am posting this response to you is because I used to say the exact same things that you are saying on this post. I am not ashamed to tell you or anyone on this thread that God DOES have a true church and I am not even .0001% sorry that “The Great Controversy” was mailed out. I am sorry that we did not do this sooner.
“Most people don’t truly “choose” their religious beliefs, but inherited them.” Elaine Nelson, your comment is interesting to me. Please let me explain. At the age 5, I watched my father beat my 12 year old sister unconscious with slaps and fists. Is that being ‘born’ into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church? I think not! For the record, she was wearing a blue print dress and laying in a corner of the pantry floor with her head to the East and her face turned to the south. I did not understand what was going on, but I knew ‘Sis’ was not moving.
Because of my father’s attitude toward “those Jews” (SDA Jews), I was made fun of and quickly learn to be ashamed of my beliefs for a greater part of my life. My Mother was not. Nor is my sister ashamed.
I learn to hate Mrs.Ellen G. White and for the first time, in my life, I am reading the Great Controversy. What a wonderful history written by a little woman with a 3rd grade education. My father had a 3rd grade education along with what he learned from being raised in his mother’s House of Prostitution in South Chicago. That my friends has left my brother and I with quite a heritage. Mother’ side of the house is much better.
My dear brethren, you are on dangerous ground! As great theologians, you have become smarter than God and your Elders. Elaine, Jesus is coming soon, very soon. The Pope is flying to America but Jesus will arrive by a much higher route and a great deal more splendor. We all need to be on…
Tony and Bob, even though I do not believe in any “one true church,” I appreciate your testimonies above.
Gerald, it is one thing to distribute SDA books “like the leaves of autumn.” It is another thing to know when and where to do that. Timing is important. Tactfulness is essential. Jesus said we must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
I think that is all that Ervin is calling for: for the SDA church to be wise and peaceful, like Jesus said.
“the mailing of Great Controversy inappropriate”
Only that part I don’t agree with you. Otherwise your response to Ervin’s daydreaming is perfect.
“The Great Controversy should be very widely circulated. It contains the story of the past, the present, and the future. In its outline of the closing scenes of this earth’s history, it bears a powerful testimony in behalf of the truth. I am more anxious to see a wide circulation for this book than for any others I have written; for in The Great Controversy, the last message of warning to the world is given more distinctly than in any of my other books.—Letter 281, 1905. CM 127.1
I totally agree! Praise God that this wonderful book has been distributed this widely!!! Why should we apologize for truth?
Why should we expect truth to be effective when it is not accompanied by personal contact with people who love God? Jesus’ method of evangelism was personal contact using the power of the Holy Spirit. Why should we imagine to do other than follow His example?
With your reasoning William, we should not use television or Internet also, as they do not permit personal contact with others either.
Val,
Both TV and the Internet are far more likely to get attention than a mass book mail-out, but they are nowhere near as persuasive as personal contact. What makes the greatest difference is when the person making the contact knows what God wants them doing and fulfilling their mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. I dreamed for decades of being effective for God but never was significantly impactive until I let the Holy Spirit take over.
Can’t be every where around the world. Now days we must use every method of the Spirit to finish the work of God!
We, Haitians, received the adventist message through books only. Now we represent one of the largest number of people in the Caribbean who share the adventist faith.
Marjorie, How can we “Praise God that this wonderful book has been distributed this widely” when it was NOT the Great Controversy that was distributed; it was ‘The Great Hope'(or something such title) that was only part of the Great Controversy because it left out some of the most important sections of the REAL book ‘Great Controversy’. AND, for that (altering & distributing) we should apologize for.
The book sent out in Philadelphia was the full book. It was a great thing to do.
To all those who believe that it was The Great Hope mailed out,it was not. It was The Great Controversy. My husband is an SDA Elder, he goes to a barber shop In Philadelphia and the barbers received a copy in the mail. It has become the barber shop talk topic. Everyone is interested and everyone is asking for more information. each week when he goes back they have more questions to ask him and more topics they want to discuss
He clearly knows what a copy of The Great Controversy looks like.I just say thank you, thank you, thank you to the person who mailed them all out and I am sure God is very, very pleased. Also We have been part of a group that has been to Philadelphia three times to pass out books before the Pope’s arrival and you can be quite sure that it was The Great Controversy and not The Great Hope That we passed out.God bless
you will know the truth and the TRUTH will set you free. JESUS is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one will go to the FATHER without JESUS; GOD THE FATHER (who created the heavens and hearth and the sea and the fountains of waters and rested in the 7th day).Every one should worship HIM. John 4:23 “The hour come when the true worshippers shall worship the “FATHER” OUR “CREATOR” in spirit and in truth. Mat. 24:14 says: “This Great message shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, then shall the end come.” AMEN! I thank GOD for every one who receive this Great Controversy and will not stay in the darkness “The “Great Controversy” revealed the truth. Revelation 19:10 says: “The Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of JESUS. “Great Controversy is written exactly for a time like this, and revealed by GOD. Dan. 2:47 says: “GOD is the Revealer of secrets.” Accept JESUS, ADORE Him, you will have the eternal life. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
I agree, there should not be an apology for doing the work & witnessing for God!
I agree the mailing of “The Great Hope” was very inappropriate because —
I’m pretty sure when EGW wrote that statement you quoted above she had no idea that her book would years later be re-written leaving out some of the most important sections of her book.
There is no evidence that the White Estate or anyone else deleted parts of the book. That is a myth. The so-called “missing chapter” is present only in the Spanish version, and it was written by a couple of scholars (not EGW) to address the Spanish reformation. There is no conspiracy here.
Remember, timing is everything. There is a time and place to distribute the GC. There are some times and places when it may not be appropriate. Always use discretion.
Exactly. It would be inappropriate to crack jokes at a funeral. It would be inappropriate to run up on the stage and kiss the groom’s bride at their wedding. The setting and timing are important.
Brother Ervin,
Since the pope is coming to America perhaps you can give him that message yourself. It’s says all the world marveled at the beast so it seems you are a part of that group, “all who dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose names have NOT been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” You can join the rest who call him “holy father” and”your holiness”.
AToday makes me sick to my stomach. If I were wearing sandals I would shake the dust off my sandals of this no good excuse for a publication. Sounds like Jesuits are speaking and not seventh day Adventists.
Yes! My sentiments exactly.
I totally agree with you. AToday is an awful publication using the name Adventist. Seems more like the pope’s insider publication to me. God bless them because God will repay the wickedness of their false writings.
Amen
Have you even read any other articles besides this one? Exactly what is your criteria to determine when a publication is “awful”? And did you know this is an opinion piece?
Indeed. At a time in our history where we should be sharing with the world the events that are about to unfold, Ervin would have us bow down to the beast! Based on his article, Ervin does not understand the carnal history of the Roman Catholic Church, the biblical reasons for the protestant reformation, nor can he articulate who the anti-christ is from the bible. Or perhaps he sees these facts as inconvenient truths. Further, anyone pretending to be something they are not (e.g., a Seventh-Day Adventist) is parallel to what Christ warned us against in Matt 7:15. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” I too am disgusted by this publication and will also “dust off my sandals”.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
I totally agree…..Brother Ervins words are the words of a Jesuit. I am totally appalled you would call a sinner “Holiness”……the shaking is upon us.
Is Ervin Taylor a Seventh Day Adventist? He should be removed right away from Adventist today or should not be allowed to contribute to our magazine again.
Please listen to this video .David Mould, Should Ted Wilson be reelected
Amen and Amen. Because the Catholic church is responsible for murdering more than 50 million people over the course of 1000 years, and because the Bible clearly states that this beast would deceive the whole world, why would we not want to shed some light into their lives. The vast majority live in spiritual darkness. Brother Erwin has obviously never worked with the Catholics and seen them run toward the light when they find out that there is a solid truth about God outside that faith. If you hate all Catholics, keep the truth about God away from, especially when the Pope is about to show up. They could live off that high until Jesus comes and tells them that He does not know them. God inspired Ellen White to write the book to shed the light of the truth into a dark and dying world. Brother Erwin seems to want to keep Catholics and others out of Heaven. With this kind of attitude he won’t have worry about being in heaven with them. He won’t be there either.
Amen!
Amen,let those who names are not written apologize. And also let Ted Wilso apologize for not having the GC send out more and disfellowing all Dathan friends who rebelled against the worldwide GC vote on women.what happen to Ted’s words about holding leaders accountable? SP says”no man be he priest or Ruler has a right to say you can not because I don’give publicate to you opinion because I don’t believe it. TM the Pope get his power, seat and great authority from the devil according to Revelation 13. So who should apologize? True SDA. Will NEVER bow down!!!!!#
Disculpa es acertado, es de caballeros , gentleman) no veo por que hay tanto alboroto, creemos en el mismo Cristo
We do believe in the same Christ; but not the same doctrine. We keep the Sabbath holy; also in the Second coming of Christ and the mortality of the soul. We don’t believe in a human made new earth, but in the messages of the three angels.
How dare you think about apologizing to the Pope, or the Babylonian church. We shared truth with ppl to warn them, as God desires we should. For you to say your holiness I believe you too be a jesuit.you need to step down and leave the church if you continue to think this way. God himself is anticatholic church. That’s why He’s calling His people out of her. We don’t owe them an apology. In fact we need to mail books like the Great Controversy everywhere. God loves the people, not the system.
Mr Elvin , this letter is all false, Ted Wilson will not and did not write this apology letter. First, Seventh-day Adventist has never been part of the ecumenical movement. Second, our hope is centered on the second coming of Jesus and not on making this world a better place as the letter claims. Again, the advent message according to the bible is to spread the gospel to all the world, so if sharing the Great Controversy will help achieve that so be it. Lastly, if at all Ted Wilson were to ‘aplogize’ to the Pope on behalf of Seventh-day Adventist Church for whatever reason, a copy of the letter will be on the official website of the church http://www.adventist.org. Guys, we need to be careful and prayerful what we read. The devil will use whatever medium he can to prevent the advent message from getting to all parts of the world.
Super Amen!!!
Nothing in the article implied or claimed that Ted Wlson wrote this apology letter. Please read the article more carefully before responding.
Please note in the above article Brother Elvin did not say this is a copy of a letter Brother Wilson sent to the pope….it’s a letter he SUGGESTS Elder Wilson send.
True, its only pastor Wilson who can clear the church on this allegation. If he has apologized to the Pope,let the copy of the letter be published on the official headed paper of the general conference of the seventh day Adventist church.
Amen brother. That is the spirit. Call out the apostasy in our church. We need to take it back and kick out the General Conference leaders who compromise our original values and purpose.
Amen and Amen.
Brother Ervin. Please remove yourself from this job. You are at odds at with church more importantly you are at odds with God’s word. You have forgotten the blood shed of millions by this tyrannical power. Do you realize that some of the Adventist on this site is going to have their heads chopped off by this power in the future? Do you realize that many here are going to burned alive, shot, Hunter down like wild animals? How dare you stand their proclaiming to the world, an apology for such an abusive power that has literally murdered millions of men, women and children.. Sister White in vision saw a group of individuals in a pure white robe with a fringe of red. She asked the meaning, they were martyred for me, Jesus said… Then she saw an innumerable number of children in the same white robes with red fringe. We are about to face the ultimate trial of our lives.. May our lives be fully in the hands of God.. Brother Ervin.. Stepped down. We don’t need the testimony of false prophecy before the world.
Fire ? bun the pope we have nothing to apologise for scripture identity him as the man of sin
Ridiculous! Check your history books regarding the history of the church, inquisition etc.
We most show respect to the Pope as we most respect every child of God. Calling him “His Holiness” its a bit of “too much” and asking for forgiveness… Way out of character. What is missing hete is Mr. Ted going on his knees in front of the Pope and show his loyalty and reverence in the bame of all Seventh-Day Adventists!
Apologyze for the mispelling. Phone changed words.Sorry!
Amen!!!
Ervin,get a new job!
GOD HELP US, GOD FORGIVE US FOR APOLOGIZING TO THE BEAST POWER WHOSE WOUND IS ALMOST HEALED!!! HOW DARE PRESIDENT WILSON SPEAK FOR ME AND MY FAMILY!!! HOW DARE HE CALL POPE FRANCIS “HIS HOLINESS” WHEN NO ONE IS HOLY EXCEPT FATHER-GOD AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM HE SENT!!! If President Wilson does not repent of the blasphemy and GROSS error in writing this letter HE WILL BE LOST!!! THE SDA CHURCH FROM THE GENERAL CONFERENCE DOWN IS NOW AN APOSTATE MOVEMENT FOR REAL! THIS IS SHAKING AND SIFTING TIME. ERVIN AND THE REST WHO THINK THAT REMNANT PUBLICATION WAS WRONG FOR SENDING OUT THE GREAT CONTROVERSY TO SOME PHILADELPHIA RESIDENTS WHEN THIS IS OUR COMMISSION TO DO SO, WILL ALL BE LOST IF THEY DO NOT REPENT!!! THIS IS OUR DUTY AS SDAs to scatter our publications like the leaves of Autumn, yet we’re apologizing to the beast power for obeying Christ’so commission to do so? GOD’S PEOPLE ARE TRULY DESTROYED BECAUSE OF THEIR FOLLY AND GROSS IGNORANCE! PROBATION FOR US AS A MOVEMENT WILL CLOSE AT THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE SUNDAY LAW! WHY DO YOU THINK THE POPE OF ROME IS COMING TO TOWN? CERTAINLY NOT TO HAVE A PICNIC ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN. “WAKE UP SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS OR BE LOST!!!”
I am agreeing to you brother, there should be no fear to serve our KING JESUS CHRIST. never call pope holy one he is beast. the holy is Almighty GOD in JESUS he sent us us as our redeemer.
pray day-night its end time
Elder Wilson did not write this….Please don’t jump to conclusions about who the author is. It was bro. Erv
Sister Rosita, please go back and re-read this article. Elder Wilson DID NOT write this letter to the pope. This is a letter the author of the article WOULD LIKE Elder Wilson to send.
Rosita, please do not be so gullible. Yes many are ignorant, but many are ignorant due to their gullibility as well.
Yes! this is really a wake up call. It is the time to preach the gospel. time is running. Revelation 3:6 says: He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches.
Hosea 4:6 says: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, because they have rejected knowledge, GOD says, “I will also reject them…
Ervin, You’ve got to be KIDDING…. Are you an ADVENTIST..?
WE HAVE NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR…!!! Suppose you would have been right there giving a medal to the pope with B.B. Beach back in the 70’s also..!!! What Heresy…!
As Elder Wilson had nothing to do with this iniciative he has nothing to apologize about. If somebody disagrees with this expression of what history and prophecy says reclaim to the distribuitors. Is it logical to request from the present pope about SDAC members that some years ago were victim of cruel violence from catholics in Chiapas, Mexico? Cardinal Vergoglio had nothing to do with it in that time. So such request would be unsense. The same reclaim to Elder Wilson is unsense.
in the words of the Archangel Michael. Jude 1:9. the Lord rebuke you
AS to what apology *should* be? Not nearly that complicated/AND the complication comes directly from dialectic opinion driven politically correct society that has replaced freedom of conscience with the freedom from having one, and puts rights WAY above results, making wrongs virtually indistinguishable and thus apology unnecessary.
Now. that being said? The catholic churches’ power becomes absolute (healed) when the above prerequisites are in place and they can begin to reinstall (heal) their theocracy and start to (unconstitutionally) dictate morality through the various fears (climate, terror, etc) prompted by the media.
The man, and yes he is but a man, is a Jesuit puppet and will be pushing an agenda that aligns with the same agenda that our current usurper has set him up >to push. The goal is to further remove what little sovereignty the United States has left to destroy freedom and reinstall the catholic feudalistic theocracy on its ashes..
Wow, your letter is a sign of the times. Are you part of the John 17 movement? How troubling that you would include an apology on behalf of all Seventh Day Adventists, do not include me in this list.
You certainly do not represent the views of most SDA members.
If you think the Pope is ‘holy’ perhaps you should become a Roman Catholic.
Yes indeed!
Good point Sam!
God bless!
To Sam Geli.
Excellent! Thanks for sharing this to help set the record straight!
Blessings!
And here might be an initial draft of His Holiness’ response:
My dear Father Ted,
Think nothing of it. That’s what I’ll be doing so you can too. Heavens above, I’ve got troubles enough with the ultra-conservatives in my own house. Cardinal Burke from Wisconsin (isn’t that near your Michigan people?) says it is wrong for me to show concern for the gay lesbian people, that the divorced should never be allowed to remarry in the church, that those poor, poor women who’ve had to face the horrible decision to have an abortion should never again share in the love and care of their church and so on and so on. And that Cardinal Pell from Australia – Lord knows I gave him his great job cleaning up Vatican Bank – and he repays me by saying I have no right to speak on climate change and science generally. You might think I’m a pope but they have no respect for my authority at all! Visiting your country will be a blessed relief from the daily fires I have to put out here in the Holy See.
I don’t think we can change the schedule now so I won’t be able to catch up when I’m in Washington. Why don’t you come over to Rome some time and we can chew the fat. I’d be interested in your ideas on how to deal with those pesky conservatives who want to stay stuck in the nineteenth century!
What part of my fold are you from? Don’t think I’ve heard of you before. Tell me all about you when you visit.
In love and brotherhood, Frank, papa
Serge,
Ah, tongue-in-cheek that makes a great point! Well said! You put a smile in my morning.
First class letter. Well done. Jolly good.
I don’t think Pr. Ted is a serious character. how do you refer a human being as His holiness? how do you apologize for the distribution of the truth? the church has decided to support the papacy in its ill motives, and that’s right because my King is on the way. those who are ready should start reading the signs of the time.
Hearty & loud amen from Northside SDA Church in Miami, FL!
There is no church logo and stamp on the letter to show that it is reflecting the church stand so I question its authenticity
No letterhead, no church logo: Good reflection! It can’t be an official letter. If it is the case, how and where did Adventist Today find it so quick?
Brother man it’s not Ted’s letter it’s Ervin’s daydreaming of what he is imaging Ted may do as a result of RP GC distribution in that city.
Touche
Serge, a great sense of humor in these times of shaking that could be real based on the silence of Elder Wilson regarding the wave of prophetic events sorounding us with a zero word of alarm from him …
Mathew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you
Interesting reply…. Kikiki
Serge, you’re a master, genius, stroke of wisdom.
Great comment.
Great comment. A bit of comic relief.
Please don’t refer to any man on earth as your father in a spiritual sense. Scripture makes this quite clear.
As far as Ted Wilson and the rest of the General Conference leaders, Ellen White predicted they would be nowhere to be found once the Mark of the Beast is enforced and the time of troubles starts. They will abandon us. Keep to the pillars of our faith. Our General Conference Leaders have failed us and should leave now if their hearts are not completely dedicated to keeping our faith.
PRICELESS, Serge!
Steve, not many Adventist know about Bert Beach, an Adventist Statesman, who actually started his journey for Catholic-Adventist cooperation back in the early 50’s. Because of him, today (with propaganda such as this), we are seeing the fruits of his spirit–the seed he planted in Adventist theology, sprout and continue to grow for future generations. Over the years, and especially since Adventist’s are “Letting Catholics off the Hook”, we see the winds of time changing Adventist attitudes –acclimatizing them in preparation for following after the beast and his image. What an interesting time we live where today we are actually seeing a clearer line being drawn by those who are for and those who are against the beast and his image. Praise the Lord!
e ekimi, you are so 100% wrong in your analysis of Brother Bert Beach and his work for our church. Pastor Beach intervened on behalf of may Christians, not just Adventists, who suffered from religious discrimination. He was a hero not a villain, get your facts straight. I knew him for 30 years.
“Bert B. Beach made a difference in the history of his church,” Pastor Paulsen wrote in the book. “He pioneered interchurch relations. He helped his church to look beyond its own borders to the brother, the neighbor, the stranger who was also created by God.”
Beach, who began his church career as an educator, rose to the position of executive secretary of the Adventist church’s Western European and West African regions, before embarking on a 15-year career as director of public affairs and religious liberty and, recently, director of inter-church relations. Under his aegis, the Adventist Church has held high-level consultations with the Lutheran World Federation, The Salvation Army and other communities. He was, for 32 years, secretary of the Conference of Secretaries of the Christian World Communions, an interfaith body uniting 2 billion Christians around the globe.
“If today most of the Christian leaders recognized us as a Christian Church, it is the result of [Beach’s] persistent and outstanding relations with other Christian leaders,” added Dr. John Graz, public affairs and religious liberty director for the SDA world church.
Bert Beach’s ministry was a…
blessing and an inspiration.
Dear serf Serge,
Adjust your pillow and go back to your dream state. Its all good. The absolutes and the conscience they invoke have become way too repulsive to be the impetus for any law keeping or accountability (which used to be the very core of our sovereignty … (allowing for a shared allegiance
The Great Controversy is as much true now as when it was first written, and if you cannot see the latest religio-political developments being completely in line with the Great Controversy, you must have your head buried firmly in the sand.
I fully agree Leo; I need say nothing more as you have encapsulated it real well.
Leo:”The Great Controversy is as much true now as when it was first written,…” Yes, definitely agree with that.
Novels are never outdated, are they?
Facts and priorities are two different things. So, how does a prophetic fact translate into a requirement for us to be so obsessed with it that we can’t do anything else God has told us to do? I can’t find anything in the Bible telling us to be obsessed with end-time events, but I find plenty of instructions from Jesus for us to be ministering to the poor, the sick and the downtrodden, etc., all things that those who are always discussing the apocalyptic never are seen doing.
It is one thing to know the apocalyptic and let it give us urgency to do the things Jesus told us to be doing because time is growing shorter. So far, I’ve not seen a single person who is making noise about end-time events doing any of the things Jesus told us to do. That’s because they’re too busy throwing stones at everybody and making the church a dangerous place for anyone seeking to know God.
Then you are blind.
There is what is called present Truth. If the ones you have seen don’t do so it’s sad.
It is not what others are doing, it’s what you and I are doing to give the warning.
Until Jesus came and lived the Gospel, ministered to the downtrodden, yes; in today’s world the downtrodden ranks have expanded and God has had His fill.
Thanks if your voice is that one of one ‘Crying in the Wilderness – I’m with you…
Leo H. I completely agree with your post. The book The Great Controversy is true and still applies to our time as well as when it was written.
Amen. May we stand firm in this last days.
Leo H,
You wrote: “and if you cannot see the latest religio-political developments being completely in line with the Great Controversy, you must have your head buried firmly in the sand.”
Does it ever occur to you that there are many who have “buried” their heads in the Holy Scriptures and not “consulted the dead on behalf of the living”? But of course, you may believe the writings of EGW are also inspired by the Holy Spirit, so how can she be dead?
Amen!
It’s time Adventist wake up and realize we are in the final stages of earth’s history!!! Open the great controversy book again, you are missing out!!!
OK, Jesus is coming. What are you doing to minister His amazing love so that people will want to be ready to meet Him?
What are you doing?
John 21:21, 22
gerri,
All Adventists should open the “great controversy book again”: is that because they’re missing out on the Truth which is in the Holy Scriptures?
Amen!
Amen!
Erv,
I appreciate your creative approach in challenging us to think.
The Apostles and early believers were not persecuted because of what they believed, but because they were ministering God’s love in the power of the Holy Spirit and the way they went about healing the sick, casting-out demons, comforting those who mourned and feeding the hungry. What they did and the power in which they did it stood in dramatic contrast to the legalistic formalism of the Jewish leadership. Yet today many in the SDA church think all they have to do to attract attention and create new believers is identify the Pope in prophecy. That concept would be laughable if it were not so pitifully powerless and the folly of the effort demonstrated by the lack of growth in the church. Even worse, those who take that approach keep expecting persecution that is always looming somewhere off in the future, but never arrives because they aren’t doing anything Satan thinks is worth fighting against.
A mind that is focused so severely on the apocalyptic typically is more fearful of sin than confident in the power of God and the victory He has already given us. I praise God that He has delivered me from that mindset. Living in His love and power is a whole lot easier and more joyful.
I thought April’s Fools was in April, Erv.
Ha ha ha. So funny José. My sentiments exactly. Let’s talk about the love of Jesus, love of Jesus and let’s do wonderful works of love, but don’t speak about the storm to come that Jesus in his love warns us about. Let’s just do good deeds like happy Christians until that storm comes and take us all unaware. Then we’ll find that we were not prepared to face that storm we all perish in our sins. Is that what he is saying? Why are people making a fuss about the great controversy book that was sent out? Doesn’t the bible also provide much of the end of time info that we see in the GC book? Will the next thing be that we put aside our bibles or stop reading and sharing the prophecies of Revelation.
“The Apostles and early believers were not persecuted because of what they believed . . . .”
William, while I agree with the other part of the sentence (not quoted), the apostles were persecuted because of what they believed.
For example:
“Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!” Acts 5:28.
William, the points you have made are very important because that is the reality for many SDAs that we tend to label as conservatives!! Focusing on who is right and wrong at the expense of edifying and alluring people to Jesus, beholding the apocalyptic and our sin at the expense of the victories we have in Jesus . . . . It is a mindset that can easily enslave.
We have to keep in mind, however, that we must also watch the signs of the times and search the Scriptures, so we are not deceived. Much of end-time instructions in the Bible warns of this. In other words, it is a balance.
Balance, yes. Knowing where we are in Earth’s history should give us urgency to be ministering God’s redeeming love. But it should not lead us into confusing end-time events with the Gospel because they are two very different things. Jesus wants us spreading the Gospel, the good news of Salvation from an all-powerful God who loves us.
William, let’s look at the Bible once again!
Here is Rev. 14:6-7:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
Notice that these two verses tie the Gospel you are talking about – identified as the everlasting gospel, preached to those who dwell on the earth (that always refers to the world in Rev.). In verse 7, we read what this angel is preaching from the everlasting gospel:
warning people that “the hour of His judgment has come” & warning people to “worship Him.” These verses make it abundantly clear that preaching the gospel includes telling people about the judgment and about worshiping God, which are both end-time subjects (as made clear by Rev. 13 and 11:1-2).
Am I missing anything?
Yes. You’re still confusing end-time events with the Gospel. Understanding the times in which we are living should give us urgency in proclaiming the redeeming and transforming love of God so that people will be drawn to Him. People who aren’t first attracted to His love have little reason to be concerned about end-time events, hence the failure of so many evangelistic efforts.
Are we to take your sentiments to assert that evangelism that includes prophecy is responsible for the decline in church membership? Wow. Where have you been? The churches aren’t working with any of it. The reformation torch sputtered out a LONG time ago in official Adventism. Check your history and then maybe start listening to what is NOT being preached in the churches. Then come back and tell me why the decline. Good grief!
The only mentions Jesus made about prophecy during His ministry were to show people that they pointed to Him. Likewise, our presentations on prophecy should point people to the amazing love and incredible power of the God who loves us. Yet it seems every discussion about end-time events devolves into argument where people posture to show how right they are and how wrong others are. That makes God unattractive and we’re seeing the results.
We should also carefully guard to not confuse the presentation of prophecy with the Gospel because the two are not one and the same. Prophecy was given so we would be urgent about ministering God’s redeeming love, but argument about it (and most evangelistic presentations I’ve seen in recent years) do little to win souls because there is so little of God’s love in them.
Prophecy and the gospel do not go hand in hand? “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, *saying* with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come (part of Bible prophecy): and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand.” Rev. 14:6-12. There is no way to give this everlasting gospel without going into Bible prophecy which is what clearly shows Rome as the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and to know what her mark is, or what is the image beast. This is the distinct message we are to say with a loud cry (Rev. 18).
I didn’t say they don’t go hand-in-hand. I said they were two different things where our heavy emphasis on prophecy has caused us to minimize our presentation of the Gospel, which is what attracts people to fall in love with God. Most often we use prophecy to try and scare people into being saved and as a result we are losing members at a faster rate than any other church in North America. But if we experienced God’s love and presented that first and foremost we would be filling churches faster than we could build them.
William tells whoopers.
Jesus said, this gospel shall be preached in all the world, then the end will come. Matt. 24:14
The gospel is the good news Jesus is all things, the creator of all things, the end of all things, and all things made new. Teaching that the gospel has nothing to do with end times is like saying your legs have nothing to do with you being able to walk anywhere.
Look.
Up in the sky.
It’s a bird.
It’s a plane.
It’s Superman.
Nope.
It’s donkey’s flying.
Erv, Erv, Erv, disturbing myth with facts coated in humor will surely earn return fire with full metal jackets, a reaction for which you are fully fortified, I’m sure!
You might have had Ted N. C. Wilson invite Mr. Pope to a meeting at Glacier View in Colorado before his departure as another gesture of good will. Never mind. Although it does have a reputation for meetings. And just around the corner from it is a Catholic retreat, Malo on the Rock, where a previous pope meditated, so if things didn’t go well. . . . Shoulda stayed with that first never mind.
I am wondering when was the last time those who are bashing this book, actually read it?
This book is NOT primarily an attack on the RC church. Though it does retrace some of the ugly events of the Mediaeval church and the Protestant Reformation (arguably with a Protestant Millerite bias), that is not its primary focus.
The full title of this book is The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan. And the title accurately describes its focus.
But nothing surprising here. The Apocalypse of John is also much maligned. And its full title, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, is oft ignored.
Although the book may not “primarily”be an attack on the RC church, Jim,it is possible that the book may be “primarily” responsible for the anti-Catholic bent that exists today in Adventism.
Michael,
You raise a good point. Whenever anyone uses Scripture to point the finger at others, it always draws the attention of those so inclined. But if people read the Bible and only the Bible, they would not see others in its pages, but themselves and Jesus Christ their Savior. And as Jim Hamstra pointed out above, “The Apocalypse of John is also much maligned. And its full title, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, is oft ignored”, because in the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” we see nothing about popes, Obamas and the like throughout its pages, but a Revealing of Jesus Christ and Him working in the hearts of all true believers. The reason people don’t like to see themselves in the Book of the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” is because they are fearful of what they may learn about themselves.
Wow. All the papacy has to do is smile a lot and say “Brother, Waldense, sorry ’bout killing all your relatives up there in the mountains. But hey, we’ve all sinned…. Oh, and Bro. Adam, if you want to marry Bro. Steve, who am I to judge?” and we all trip over ourselves to beat a pilgrim path to the Vatican?
Sorry why are you afraid of being anti catholic? This is the seat of the beast of Revelation 17. Why is it a sin to be anti beast I don’t get itm What happened to adventist for crying out loud!
The bible says we should expose thr sin of Babylon…therefore we should be anti catholic teachings; and not the people.
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Mr. Taylor,
I’m curious to know the criteria you use to pick and chose which 19th century works and authors are relevant/irrelevant during the 21st century?
I also would like to know why you seem so certain that “this mailing was clearly intended to communicate is an anti-Catholic message…” Are you not aware of the countless mass-mailings of the book Great Controvery that have taken place within the United States alone over the past decades? Why are you so sure that this particular mailing “intends to communicate an anti-catholic message”? Is the opposition to a false system of worship (what you juxtapose as anti-catholisim) the only thesis of the book Great Controversy, or does it speak of other (just as equally important) points? (Have you even read – do you even remember reading – The Great Controversy?
Being that the book The Great Controversy is of a prophetic nature (regardless of your dismisive attitude towards it), and being that the end of times has yet to end, how do you know if the contents of The Great Controversy are relevant or not to the 21st Century?
What other 19th century findings/authors/therories, ect. do you find to be irrelevant today? (germ theory? Einsteinian physics? strides in hospital hygiene? Electricity? Just because something was written in the 19th century does not make it any less valuable today.
I would like to know why you would want to rely exclusively on the writings of someone who has now been dead for a century instead of enjoying the vibrant and current ministries of those who are gifted and empowered by the Holy Spirit today?
Try to think about it critically William Noel; how long have the Bible writers been dead?
100 years after Paul died, would it have made sense for someone to have asked people why they were relying on any of Paul’s letters for anything (like doctrine, or reproof, or righteousness instruction)?
Paul and EGW aren’t interchangeable, yet the time principle applies and is the same; especially if you regard any of what she wrote to have been inspired.
Mr. Noel, Mr. Foster gave you an excellent response, however, if you do not believe The Great Controversy to be an inspired and accurate book, well then, what else can I say?
If you do not believe the Great Controversy’s claim regarding the papacy (a false system of worship) then, pray do tell me, what’s the alternate claim we should be making? If not the papacy, who/what, then, is the false system of worship? If the Great Controversy is making an inaccurate claim, then please tell me what should the accurate claim be in its stead. Does the papacy fit in the books of Daniel and Revelation (these two books are the central thesis of the GC), or does it not fit???
It is unfair to say that I rely exclusively in the writtings of a century old book, (I’ve never made such a claim), yet you are relying on many modern day advances and ideas which were derived exclusively over a century ago… Are you throwing those babies out, along with the bath water, just because they are a century old??
Lastly, I strongly defend the mass mailing of this book (and of any other inspired books, truth filled books, for that matter), because Christ not only loved and helped, but He also PREACHED, THOUGHT and EXPLAINED the Scriptures… Christ didn’t come to this earth only to do good and be merciful and make miracles… Start counting how many times He instructed the disciples and preached in the synagogues and sent off His disciples in pairs to give the Gospel! He did outreach, too!
In this post modern era (nor in any era, really), we will not win souls without love, and we will not win souls without outreach (be it in the form of canvassing, community health fairs, food/clothing donation center, counseling, mass mailings, personal ministry, knocking on doors, prison ministries, elder care ministries, hospital/illness comfort ministry, etc)…
If you ask any Hispanic sda person what “Obra Misionera” means, they will tell you that is when nembers of the church get together on Sat. afternoons to go knocking on doors and hand out literature to identify potential Bible study contacts in the community, and/or engage in any/several of the activities mentioned above.
In fact, 80% of all SDA churches I know carry out one or more of the several outreach projects I listed above. There is a diversity of gifts… We cannot pick and choose and impose the ones we deem appropriate on any one… Only God knows which effort will reach which soul…
In Spanish, there is a saying that goes: “tira la piedra y esconde la mano”…
This is exactly what Ervin Taylor has done… I bet, Ervin, you must be very pleased with yourself and your irresponsible and incendiary article, while you sit back, relax and enjoy reading the carnage elicited by your calculated instigations – all the while, as customary – not even having the decency or courage to show up and at least answer for what you’ve done.
Bravo. Mr. Taylor! You’re such a fine example! Bravo!
Ellen White was gifted by the Holy Spirit and through the Great Controversy we learn the love of God and the evil intentions of man. Who cares if she has been dead a century, does that mean she carries less weight then someone today? Deception is the number one tool used by the devil to cover his true intentions. The Great Controversy exposes that deception. We should never apologize for the truth getting out to the people. It is our gospel commission to preach the 3 Angels Message to the world. We should have sent more books to warn our nation of the coming of the man of sin. Remember the Catholic Church has not changed, underneath she is hiding her true intentions. Because of the apostasy of most of the Christian churches the pope is welcomed with open arms and called your holiness. What blasphemy. We need to rekindle the Reformation which saw an explosion of truth coming to light and an interest in understanding the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation. No apology or compromise with the beast power. Truth will triumph in the end.
Well said! It pains me to read many of these threads. I supposing saying “Peope, wake up” wouldn’t really make a difference to those who feel the Pope needs to be apologized to, EGW is irrelevant, etc. My heart aches that so many in the “church” are so deceived. Let us remain faithful! Blessings to those on the straight and narrow!
Finally, a humorous fact that just came to my head (comepletely unrelated to topic):
In Antellian Adventist University (at least a few years ago, idk about today), the Men’s dorm was known as The Desire of Ages and the Women’s Dorm as The Great Controversy 🙂
Now thats funny
Go to Amazon and look up Vatican and Papacy and read some of the books written by no less than Catholics themselves. What EGW wrote pales in insignificance with what is written in say, “Vicars of Christ”. If White’s eschatology turns out to be correct then Pope Francis better change camps before it is too late!
And here we are Adventists apologizing for telling others what the Bible teaches about the anti-Christ. There is only one power on earth that claims to and actually traces its authority to the 4th beast of Dan. 7; claims to having authority to change laws written by God Himself; claims it has political authority; etc. These can be defended on a public platform. I do not need EGW to tell me from which beast the little horn arises. Yet, I am grateful for the light God has granted us through her. The Great Controversy was mailed out to prompt people to study the Bible for themselves, as opposed to relying on popes, councils, priests and pastors to tell them what to believe. There will be many, many more Catholics than SDAs saved precisely because of attitudes promulgated by articles such as these. We are not pulling our beliefs out of a hat. If people do not see how these prophecies can be fulfilled, that is inconsequential because the Bible says they will be fulfilled and God asks us only to believe what His Word says – not to believe subjective interpretations about whether the Bible can be fulfilled. It is amazing that those who come to accept the absolute authority of the Bible marvel at our disregard for what it says. Also, I have nothing against Catholics, including the Pope; many of them have more devotion to God than I have seen in most of SDA Churches. The question for us is whether we are living to the light given to us!
In other words, this is not about SDAs vs. Catholics or “I am right.” Rather, it is about who is God and it is about the lifting up of Jesus Christ before others.
Claude, If “I read it in a book so it must be true,” is the basis for judging the significance of any work of eschatology or church history found on Amazon, whether it be Catholic, Adventist, or Zoroastrian, there might be some merit in your assertion. Scholars in the fields of history and theology might be of assistance, however, in helping to judge which studies are factual and have theological merit.
Claude , there is an amazing amount of books written about the Catholic church, and a number of apologies from within the same church for the deeds of the early catholic church some of which are noted in the great controvesy. If we look at it, one of the first people to actively denounce the papacy (and relate to the antichrist) was catholic and that was way before the advent of adventism.
Very important point! Thank you Jonathan!
I total agree, early reformers like Martin Luther stated that the pope was the antichrist and was sitting in the seat of Satan. Even one of his woodcuts made showed the pope riding a pig with steaming animal waste in his hand. The Great Controversy is mild in comparison.
You may want to check the Centers for Disease Control posted on the internet information. I’ve been told that they are #1 in distributing and doing research in the USA on domestic abuse:
Google for further understanding from a CDC web site:
Intimate Partner Violence Surveillance: Uniform Definitions and Recommended Data Elements, Version 2.0
http://www.cdc.gov/features/intimatepartnerviolence/
CDC Domestic Violence
Download full resolution image of infographic [.JPG 4.3 MB](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/images/nisvs-infographic-full.jpg)
Download CDC PDF version of infographic[PDF 2.2 MB](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs-infographic.pdf)
My mistake, this comment above does not belong in this thread and I apologize to AT readers. I was responding to another topic elsewhere.
Concerned Christian on August 28, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Seven Campaign Against Abuse Transitions to enditnow From AT News Release, August 20, 2015
I am glad someone has addressed that Catholic bashing mailing. Much of the book is valuable but if it is going to be mailed to random and unchurched people couldn’t it be condensed and edited. What person is going to be interested in a denomination that discriminates and bashes others?
What you are suggesting has already been done several times over the past half century. In fact multiple updates to this book were published even during the lifetime of its author.
But the “independent ministries” prefer to publish the earliest edition for at least two reasons:
1) It is considered to be the most “authentic” whereas later editions were “watered down”.
2) They can only publish without license, books whose copyrights have lapsed. Copyright for the newer condensations and editions are still held by the White Estate. The “independent ministries” are happy to collect funds but they do not want to pay royalties.
On behalf of all members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church??? NOT THIS ADVENTIST!!! I have read the book the Great Controversy several times. Events that EG White foretold would take place immediately prior to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are being fulfilled! We are living at the close of this world’s history! Wake up people!
One pope writing another pope. I believe the Pope is president of GC. Both are oppose women’s ordination . Both is seen as infallible. Division presidents is Cardinals. Union presidents are archbishop. Conference presidents is bishop. GC president are Pope. Is the GC papacy. General conference headquarters, Silver Spring Mary-land, is Vatican. One pope not need write other Pope. Sorry my english not good.
Thankfully the author of this piece does not write speeches or letters for the General Conference president. The Great Controversy has never been more relevant than just now in our present age. This illusion that it is out of date has been promoted by misguided “progressives” for some decades, never mind the ongoing course of human events which continues to vindicate the contents of this powerful, God-inspired book.
Elder Wilson has done much to encourage the distribution of this book, and for that we can praise the Lord. As the scroll of prophecy continues to unfold, we can only pray that those who persist in viewing classic Adventist apocalyptic prophecy as outdated will come to their senses and prepare their lives to meet their Lord in peace.
Can anyone tell us what the results have been? So far I’ve seen nothing about any results. If what we’re doing isn’t producing results, why do we keep doing it? Why do we imagine God will bless it when there is no evidence to support that illusion.
The results will be seen when Jesus returns William! This is not a result-oriented work. It is faith-guided work. We plant and water, yet God gives the increase.
Val,
Your balanced (both/and rather than either/or) perspective of this on this thread has been spot on in every respect. Thanks!
Apparently you’ve not been involved in much ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit because where God’s people are working in His power you get to see Him delivering results today. Yes, we hope to see results when Jesus returns, but that is a lame excuse for not doing the many works He wants us doing today.
William, how about Ecclesiastes 11:1, scatter your bread upon the waters and you will find it after many days (somewhat paraphrasing)? Not seeing the results from our work immediately does not negate that God is behind the work being done!
Val,
How about Matthew 7:6 where Jesus warned us not to cast pearls before swine because “If you do they may trample them under their feet, then turn and tear you to pieces.” Or, Proverbs 25:11, “A word aptly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver.”
Why wait for some undefined date in the future to see results when God promises to empower all who believe right now. Let the Holy Spirit take control and empower you and you’ll be amazed by what you see Him doing through you and how many lives are changed. I’ve seen God do many wonderful things in my ministry that others call amazing, but which have become so common and routine for me that God has to keep on doing greater things to surprise and amaze me.
Why wait when God wants you working in His power and producing results NOW?
I am not denying that God can do and does amazing things in the lives of people now! My only point is that we are told to focus on abiding in Jesus and spreading the gospel, and that we are not to be discouraged if we do not see immediate results. We do not determine whether God is behind the work based on whether the results are manifested immediately. Many times, results will be never manifested, as people have the right to reject Jesus and they do reject Him. Does this mean that we do not do the work or that God is not behind the work … of course not!
BTW, I praise God that you are taking part in His ministry and that you have seen such amazing manifestations of His power!!!
William,
I have to agree with Val. Many times we don’t see results because God is keeping that to Himself. We humans can rise in pride and say, “Look what I have done”. Well, to tell you the truth, I hope I never see results and risk falling by pride. Not only that, only God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. This is why Satan keeps accusing the brethren, because he does not know what is in their hearts, much less knows what the Spirit of Christ is doing in every believer.
Regards.
“So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers”
Please, would God’s fellow workers cease this quarreling over who is the greatest?
William.. An angel is sent with each copy.. Some are going to left on a shelf unread.. But the day will come.. Many will be led to read that book… Praise God…
An angel sent with each copy? Now that’s really taking a thought and stretching it to something far past what the writer was saying!
If God gives you specific instruction on how to do something, why would you expect God to bless your efforts if you do otherwise? Did God accept Cain’s offering? No, and when Abel’s sacrifice was acceptable to God he got angry and killed his brother.
God’s instruction to us through Ellen White regarding the distribution of her books was that people were to go out two-by-two, meet people to discern if there was interest and only then give them spiritual literature. That’s a pretty specific instruction and just mailing-out a book without any personal contact is doing differently than we were instructed. That’s disobedience and anyone who tells you to do otherwise is promoting disobedience. Why disobey when you can obey and see your efforts blessed? Are not ignornce of God’s instructions and disbelief in His promises to us why we are spiritually weak and the church not growing quickly in North America?
Kevin,
You wrote: “This illusion that it is out of date has been promoted by misguided “progressives” for some decades, never mind the ongoing course of human events which continues to vindicate the contents of this powerful, God-inspired book.”
If the writings of EGW are “God-inspired” and they are not “out of date”, then one must concluded, by your statement, that the Bible is out of date; otherwise, why would anyone need these books?
“They speak of the world and the world hears them”.
Remember what Jesus said: “I am not of this world”.
The fact is, Daniel, that both Scripture and the writings of Ellen White are timeless and more relevant now than ever.
Kevin,
Just like others on this web site, who are constantly promoting EGW, you have demonstrated that wielding two swords will gain you the victory over those who appear to lack knowledge in their Bible. If even you, yourself, knew that the Holy Scriptures contained everything man ever needed for their understanding in Salvation, you would not have gone beyond what is written and turn to fables.
Prophecy is all about revealing Jesus Christ and the work He is doing in the hearts of all true believers, preparing them for Salvation. The Holy Scriptures together with the Holy Spirit, Who inspired them, are the “Testimony of Jesus”; “The Spirit of Prophecy”. But you Adventists have taken that Glorious Title away from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures and ascribed it to a mere human. May God forgive you all.
Daniel, EGW’s writings are all about refocusing us to the Bible. Forget about EGW and let’s just talk about the Bible. For instance, as I wrote elsewhere, I do not need EGW to tell me that the little horn power comes from the 4th beast of Dan. 7 (and not the 3rd beast). It is plainly in the text and vision given to Daniel. Another example, I do not need EGW to tell me that the antichrist will arise from among those who claim to follow God, when that is clear from Jesus’ prayer in John 17:12 (referring to Judas) and then how the antichrist is identified in 2 Thess. 2:3. I do not need EGW to tell me who is the lamb speaking like a dragon in Rev. 13, when that is clear from the sequence of events described in Rev. 12-13, as well as the fact that it is a beast coming out of the earth (the opposite of the water, representing peoples, multitudes and tongues (Rev. 17:15)). More, there is only one country in the history of the world that has served as refuge for persecuted Christians, as the U.S. has been a refuge for persecuted Christians.
Nevertheless, much of Christendom has ignored the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. God has used EGW mightily to refocus SDAs and other Christians to study the Bible for themselves.
Of course those who have their faith based on Ellen White, the Adventist Whiteists, have to promote the writings that are the foundation of their faith.
Christian Adventists don’t have the same need, because their (our) faith is based in the Bible only.
Two very different religions indeed.
The Reformers would be rolling over in their graves if they could read this article…I wonder what the 50-80 million Protestant Christian martyrs would say to this article. You will very soon get to see who is legitimate and who is not. Time will soon tell. Stand firm all you who hope in the Lord. When did it become unloving to tell the truth? Did Jesus not call a snake a snake? Did He not do that to keep others from being deceived. Do you think that if Ellen White were alive right now, she would be pussy footing around a world wide power that is fulfilling prophecy to the letter, faster than you can write this letter, and would she not be trying to warn the masses? Did she not say that this whole message, not just part of it, must go to the cities? What part of this do you not understand? Believe it or not, there are many people searching at this very moment, to understand these prophecies.and guess why? Because the Holy Spirit is leading them to it! Who is going to tell them if we don’t, and if they aren’t told, is their blood not on our hands? The Great Controversy reveals Jesus powerfully, and it also reveals full deception. Satan would be in full agreement with not sending them out. I would love to see every household in America receive one this week! I will not waste my time reading anymore of your articles! Whose side are you on?
As far as the person that said that people that are watching the prophecies not doing what Jesus asked to help others? Lie
Joy,
You wrote: “Did she not say that this whole message, not just part of it, must go to the cities?”
Should one proclaim the gospel of those who come in their own name?
But what did Jesus say: “15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15, 16.
“6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts1:6-8.
It appears you are promoting someone other than Jesus Christ to the world.
Studying the Bible reveals Jesus even more powerfully. Ellen White’s counsel to us is to study the Bible, something far too many Adventists ignore because they often are spending more time in her writings than God’s Word.
The author may think himself clever writing this caustic missive, but sadly he will come to realize he is an integral part of fulfilling prophecy – diminishing Ellen White’s inspired writings.
Janet,
Are you saying EGW prophesied that her writings would be “diminished”?
Ellen White did prophecy that her writings would be “diminished”
This is just one of several:
“But in order to give men and women every possible warning, God has sent plain, direct testimonies, pointing them to The Word they have neglected to follow. Yet the light is often rejected.”
“There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.—Selected Messages 1:48. (See Testimonies for the Church 5:675, 676.) { PM 361.1}
Rich,
Nothing like covering one’s tracks? She certainly made sure she condemned those who would oppose her even before they did.
Daniel, she did not condemn anyone. She was just stating what will happen with the testimonies given through her and who will be behind the work. If you feel guilt or condemnation, it is not coming from her, much less anyone here. It is one thing to be uncertain about whether EGW was indeed a prophet inspired by God. But, your mind is obviously made up about EGW already.
If you have hard time with EGW, how is it that you do not have trouble with biblical prophets, such as John the Baptist (or maybe you have trouble with him as well)? If he was indeed a true prophet, why did he send (according to you) his disciples to Jesus, asking if He is indeed the Messiah and whether they should be waiting on another?
The most toxic element in Adventism has been the abandonment of the Bible as the only source of belief and doctrine, replacing it with EGW’s writings.
George,
Unfortunately many in the Adventist church do not see what you do. It all depends on whom one builds their faith on.
I think you re-stated his point, only with a different object in mind.
When are we going to obey Ellen White’s instruction to us to use the Bible ALONE as the SOLE basis for every teaching and belief? Obviously we’re a long way from that when you can sit in a Sabbath School class in just about any SDA church in North America and hear a list of claimed EGW statements on a particular topic instead of Bible verses and people making claims about what she wrote can’t even tell you where they read it or exactly what she wrote. Or, when you hear a sermon with more EGW quotes than Bible verses.
The issue to me is not the verity of what she wrote, but the way she has been functionally elevated, often above the Bible.
You misunderstand or misstate the situation, Tichy. The writings of EGW in no way replace the Bible. OTOH many of those on the left do not relish being told that some of their machinations are unacceptable.
The Bible is a major witness, but not the only one. Romans 1:20 says Nature is another and even speaks of God’s eternal power and Godhead. Are we to ignore the Scriptural appeal to “consider the heavens” (Psalm 8:3) or the “lilies of the field” (Matthew 6:28)?
And then what must we do with the counsel in 1Peter 3:1 that is given to wives whose husbands do not accept the Word of God? Didn’t Jesus tell Nicodemus that if he didn’t believe the witness of Christ and His disciples (followers) or the simple truths of nature, how could he understand spiritual things?
What good, then, is the gift of prophecy or other gifts given the church (1Corinthians 12:10) to help strength the teachings of God’s Word if we so minimize them?
No, George, we don’t have to abandon the Bible as the only source of belief and doctrine by accessing the other witnesses God has given to support it! Now if those witnesses turn against God’s Word, yes (as false science and false prophets and false witnesses have done!)
All truth comes from God (John 14:6, 2 Timothy 2:15). If we follow truth it will lead us back to God. That is the purpose of CounterpartStudies.com, to show the power of these God-established witnesses.
So I would rephrase your statement to say, “The most toxic element in Adventism has been the abandonment of the Bible as the MAIN pillar of belief and doctrine, and relegating it to a stand-alone volume incapable of integrating with natural science, current events,…
Amen!
George, every time I read EGW, I am challenged to more closely study my Bible. I do not take anything from her as I take things from the Bible because her writings are not the Bible. I first compare her writings with Scripture and then decide whether she is right. I have yet to find her messages (not words) not to be inspired, as I always find their bedrock anchored in the Bible.
On the other hand, there are plenty SDAs who, like you have stated, have made her writings to be the Bible. That was never her intention, nor is it an official position of our Church.
George:
The abandonment of the bible? That’s a really strong opinion. Adventist has not abandoned the bible. I am really sorry that you are surrounded by individuals that would allow you to feel that way. That is clearly not true. I totally agree with Val. I find that so many individuals speak negatively of Egwhite but has nothing to say about the prophets in the bible. Hmmmmmm….is this some sort of deception or tactic of the enemy? I wonder.Egwhite writings are in line with the word of God. The problem is many people do not ask the holy spirit to come into their hearts before readings spiritual things. They have their minds made up and nothing can change that. Mercy! This is a dangerous concept and Satan knows this. I pray that we be wise, understanding that without the holy spirit living inside of us, we cold never made good decisions. Be blessed today!
The tragic part of this story is that such a letter of apology will never be written.
The distribution of those books at a time when a Church celebrates the visit of their world leader is a shameful demonstration of how low religious fanatics can fall. It’s nothing but a demonstration that Adventism has produced some very rotten fruits.
There are many good, sincere, spiritually honest people in Adventism, but the toxicity of concepts that have been emphasized extra-biblically have destroyed the ability of many to even think rationally. Their brains are completely paralyzed, they can’t even behave with respect and human decency toward people of other Christian denominations. Is this to be a Christian? NO! This is to be possessed by some insane and perverted spirit.
This is not religion, this is solid craziness!
I agree George, the best statement I that I read on this thread.
We cannot Love each other inside and pull together as a Body.
We condemn and falsely accuse those outside the Body.
We preach that which is not Sound Doctrine or even taught.
We think we know everything, can do anything and justify it.
While HE sacrificed all for us; because of us.
“This is to be possessed by some insane and perverted spirit.”
Judgmental, Tichy, and a practice which libs profess to eschew.
George, what is sad about our church is it has been influenced by beliefs and doctrines that are apostate and lukewarm. That is not a conspiracy, that is a fact. What is sadder still is that we have articles written like this which deny the truth and, as a result, our God. We have no need to apologize to anyone for giving them the warnings God has mandated.
The patriarchs and prophets of old would probably look at us with horror while we dance our own dance of Baal around the issues and topics that should be loudly proclaimed in these last days: Come out of her My people….
We, as a last days’ messenger, have failed miserably and have followed the way of the world by trying not to disturb relationships and to be politically correct. Sadly, this article is a perfect example of how low the mindset of our church has been influenced by ecumenical fornication.
God is looking for Jeremiahs and Elijah’s, not donkey’s and rocks; although, God will get His true message out, without apology, to those who are seeking the real truth.
I will say that I appreciate knowing who distributed these books. I will now be sending them my offerings until the NAD “wanders” back to the straight truth.
I think God is looking for people who will get back to the soul-winning methods of Jesus, who will repent of their old ways, experience the transformation He promises and then become empowered by the Holy Spirit. The early church grew like wildfire because of a simple reason: personal contact empowered by the Holy Spirit. Why do we imagine doing it any other way?
William.. God gave us the health message to do the very work you speak.. But it’s been rejected by the majority.. How many SAD Adventist are still pouring a cup of coffee or eating meat and cheese? How many SAD Adventist are doped up in pills and drugs? This is the message along with gospel that needed to be preached.. Jesus was and is a Seventh day Adventist and a medical missionary. The Great Medical Missionary… The disciples were all medical missionaries. The apostle Paul was a medical missionary. Now, the entire church of God is to be medical missionaries..
Jesus was not just a medical missionary. He fed people on several occasions. For most of His life He built their houses and furniture and farm implements. And He also taught people and called people to follow Him.
Regarding the health message, He ate roast lamb and broiled fish and served them to others.
Ellen White wrote that the health message was the “right arm” of the work. There are other parts in a whole body and at least two of them, the legs, typically are much stronger. All are vital and should work in harmony with each other.
No, Jesus was NOT a medical missionary. He sent His disciples out to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast-out demons and cleanse the lepers. While three of those are medically restorative, none of them was a command to go and teach healthful living. Neither is there any record of Him giving anyone instruction about avoiding certain foods, using herbs, etc. I’m not saying we shouldn’t teach people to live healthfully, just that we need to be careful to keep it in harmony with the other ministries the Holy Spirit wants in the church.
There are approx. 318.9 million citizens of the United States… Surely we can get all of them a copy of the Great Controversy in these ‘last days’. America plays a big role in ‘end time prophecy’ and it’s citizens should be make aware of it. I pray that the Holy Spirit frees up a few hundred million dollars to get this done… even if it is a spontaneous ‘grass roots’ movement done here and there as a personal ministry for the laity… as they can afford 5 or 10 books a week and then send them off or better yet, hand them out and give a small insight into the book… I wish you blessings!
David,
You wrote: “America plays a big role in ‘end time prophecy’ and it’s citizens should be make aware of it”. Show me in the Bible where you see “America” in “end time prophecy”?
Also, “I pray that the Holy Spirit frees up a few hundred million dollars to get this done”; you don’t need to pray about that, just ask the General Conference to free up the SDA’s untold millions which are in their coffers. You do not know what you are asking for. How about the SDA church buying Bibles and sending them out to all the people?
On second thoughts, don’t tell the church to send out Bibles, because it will probably be the “Remnant Study Bible, with Ellen G. White quotes” throughout the actual Text of the their whole Bible”.
The SDA church is one of the major sponsors of the various Bible societies. We spend millions of dollars every year printing and distributing Bibles. And we sponsor many Bible translation projects.
Why do we work primarily through Bible societies in these endeavors? To dispel the notion that we have our own sectarian version of the Bible.
Why send books when Jesus’ method for spreading the Gospel was personal contact where one who is empowered with the Holy Spirit touches someone who needs the transformation God’s power brings. When are we going to quit depending on methods other than what Jesus modeled for us?
Paul sent out letters to the churches, which I love. According to your logic they are evil because Paul didn’t deliver them in person?
What percentage of these 318.9 million can read the Victorian English that Ellen used in many of her writings?
If you want your project to succeed you had better produce publications that can be read by a middle school student. Not to mention the many mother tongues other than English.
Ellen did produce books that were written for mass distribution, including her great masterpiece Steps to Christ. Unless you have tried it, you might not realize how difficult it really is to distill any message down to its essentials and state them in very simple language that an elementary student can read and understand. That is what great teachers do.
I can say this with certainty,the writer of this article is not a converted sda. He aught to repent for out dating God’s truth. The papacy never changes. I dint think this person has had a very good read of that book. Either that or they are come destroy the sheep knowingly.
Jesuits and the people who have not read the Great Controversy hate the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Pope Francis read the Great Controversy and he calls Ellen White a plague. Because if everyone was to read that book, their eyes would be opened and they will see how the devil has been decieving the masses through out the ages. And how God’s people will be redeemed. Also how people can be aware of the snares of the devil in these last days. elder Ted Wilson will make a terrible mistake if he sends that letter to the pope. Truth is not always sent to flatter, it will enrage. Let me remind us one thing The Devil hates us very much so does the world. It hurts Christ whenever we lower His standards. Truth will make people free. Compromisining will make us popular but it lead us to recieve the mark of beast.
It is good am in this generation I can see and here things on my own gave over for the devil’s side let’s fight a good fight we are on God’s side we will will the trueth shall prevail this book will be a witness to many may God have mercy on our leaders
It is good am in this generation I can see and here things on my own game over for the devil’s side let’s fight a good fight we are on God’s side we will will the trueth shall prevail this book will be a witness to many may God have mercy on our leaders
The author argues that sister “White was very critical of the theology and history of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe. Obviously, the heritage she reflected went back centuries, based on the long-standing, intense hostility that existed between Protestants and Catholics beginning at the time of the Reformation and continuing down into the late 19th century in many countries in Europe”, and that “anti-Catholic hostility was exacerbated during the 19th century”.
Can we say the same about her comments on the United States? Was there an anti-american hostility exacerbated during the 19th century? Was she motivated by the same kind of heritage, and therefore wrote what she did about the United States in that same book?
This article is surely a serious contestant to the most despicable piece of writing in Adventist history prize.
Amen…..l
Amen!
Well the letter said “Proposed” meaning its a suggestion. But however, all these things are telling us that the Sunday Laws (NSL) is right upon us. We must wake up and redeem the times. Romans 13:11-14King James Version (KJV)
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Satan is busy and we should be even more busy being about our Father’s business! Let us spread this 3angel’s message to the world.
I speak to you who are engaged in the canvassing work. Have you read volume 4 [The Great Controversy]? Do you know what it contains? Have you any appreciation of the subject matter? Do you not see that the people need the light therein given? If you have not already done so, I entreat you to read carefully these solemn warnings and appeals. I am sure that the Lord would have this work carried into all the highways and byways, where are souls to be warned of the danger so soon to come.—Letter 1, 1890. {CM 127.2}
I was moved by the Spirit of the Lord to write that book, and while working upon it, I felt a great burden upon my soul. I knew that time was short, that the scenes which are soon to crowd upon us would at the last come very suddenly and swiftly, as represented in the words of Scripture: “The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” {CM 127.3}
The Lord has set before me matters which are of urgent importance for the present time, and which reach into the future. The words have been spoken in a charge to me, “Write in a book the things which thou hast seen and heard, and let it go to all the people; for the time is at hand when past history will be repeated.” I have been aroused at one, two, or three o’clock in the morning with some point forcibly impressed upon my mind, as if spoken by the voice of God…. {CM 128.1}
I was shown … that I should devote myself to writing out the important matters for volume 4 [The Great Controversy]; that the warning…
My church (SDA), where are you going???
God come and rescue us
Amen…come soon Lord Jesus and save your people….do not tarry…..
I am just sick about this….why cant SDAs see the path they are following…..right back to Rome…..i never knew it was wrong to spread the truth. As a matter of fact, thats what Adventism was raised up to do….spread the three angels messages, but of course that is not being done. I praise the ones who sent out the GREAT CONTROVERSY books, to try to get the message out that we are headed straight for the fullfilment of prophecy in Daniel and the Revelations….may God bless your efforts and I pray some folks who recieved it will indeed read it…their eyes will be opened…….
Dear Brother Taylor,
While I do not have a 100% conviction that the mass mailing of “The Great Controversy” to the residents of Philadelphia was the right thing to do, none-the-less those at Remnant Publications may have had a strong unction from the Holy Spirit to do so. We need the truth in that book. With respect to your proposition I say ‘no way’. Have you gone mad? If you wish to join the Catholic church then you are free to do so but there are those of us who are called to be God’s witnesses in these last days who must stand true to duty as the needle to the pole. We must stand for the right though the heavens seem to fall. To specifically quote Sister White “The greatest want of the world is the want of men—men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.” Education pg 58. Ponder the path of thy feet brother … and let all thy ways be established.
Amen to that brother Steve. Now, the wolves in sheep’s clothing are trying to display their true color. Many in our midst today, who’s minds & character are being influence by Satan to confuse the church. By posting this article, Mr. Taylor not only confuse the members, but destroying Pastor Ted Wilson’s leadership. May God have mercy on your soul Mr. Taylor. This article is careless and irresponsible.
I see this IA proposed letter so I am waiting, but in the mean time I need to ask a question, why would our president be apologizing to the Pope,and second who is he addressing as holy fater,and his holiness,and who told him as a member of the seventh day adventist church I want to apologize,my family and I are not apologizing for the truth, the president didn’t ask my opinion so he doesn’t speak for me ,but Sis White did say some of our brightest lights were going to go out. I am glad the real great controversy is being mailed out. I really really pray and hope this is not true.
Excerpts from the Poem The Protest Continues-based on the Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. Over 90% of the words and concepts are taken from The Great Controversy. For Complete poem http://haroldwong4728.wix.com/the-protest
1517 continues on Protestantism is still very strong
1999 is still a lie Papal Rome is very sly
Protestants are a few But the remnant of her seed
Yes it is the truth Declares the papacy’s misdeeds
Apostate Protestants And spiritualism are holding hands
They’ve join the pope of Rome Sunday law will they condone
United in disguise Wreaking havoc then demise
Yes it is the truth Your conscience they will tyrannize
The united state so bold and apostate Protestants
Have void all their laws Their fathers have fought for
State complying with the church Forms the image of the beast
Yes it is the truth The state controlled by the priest
The United States so brash God’s Sabbath Day she trash
Enforce Rome’s Sunday law Sabbath seal she calls a flaw
The Sabbath day earth’s final test Papal Sunday we must reject Yes it is the truth God’s Sabbath Day we must accept
The United States so bold Enforce pope’s Sunday law
Pope’s mark of authority Becomes the mark of the beast
When the United States so bold Enforce pope’s Sunday law
Yes it is the truth It’s then the mark of the beast
Our liberty of conscience Is tolerated by Rome
When she is in the majority The table will turn
Tolerance becomes the rack Is a Roman Catholic…
Daniel on September 14, 2015 at 11:14 pm said:
” It all depends on whom one builds their faith on.”
He identified it correctly.
Isn’t it time to stop trying to mix TWO completely different religions? One based on the BIBLE(Christianism) and the other based on ELLEN WHITE (Whiteism)?
The only thing that is missing in the puzzle is honesty from the Whiteists to admit that they indeed “build their faith” on EGW. If they can’t talk about religion without resorting to EGW for proof of their “rightness” on everything, well, how can they deny that she is the full source and final arbiter of their religious beliefs?
It’s time to be honest. Those who follow the Bible ONLY and those who follow the religion established by EGW have to take a clear position.
Trying to mix TWO different religions has not worked for about 170 years. Are we going to continue doing the same expecting different results? That would be insane!
Let’s face it; cut to the chase, those of us who believe the Bible and/or The Great Controversy to be anachronistic nonsense do not want, and/or are embarrassed (for whatever reason) that The Great Controversy is being distributed at all, much less at the time of an historic and precedent setting visit by the pope to the United States; whereas those of us who believe the Bible and The Great Controversy to contain nothing but information that God would have us know and disseminate at this time, think that the distribution of that book at this time is not only appropriate, but vitally important.
We’re either in one camp or the other. (Please put me in the latter camp.)
To those Seventh-day Adventists who would deny that they are in one of these two camps, I would ask, of all Christian faith community options available to sentient adult human beings, if you are an adult human being, why are you voluntarily affiliated and associated with Seventh-day Adventist Protestants if you know that one of its founders wrote that book?
I would bet that the pope would wonder that if he were to receive Erv’s letter. He would really wonder that of Elder Wilson if Wilson were ever to write such a letter—and with good reason.
Let me see, how can I put this nicely and mildly? The premise of the proposed ‘letter’ is somewhat flawed; how’s that?
Amen!
Thankfully, Ted Wilson’s letter of apology to the pope will only be written in Ervin Taylor’s wildest emagination.
Even better still, and to the chagrin of many Atoday followers; copies of the Great Controversy will continue to be mass-mailed in the United States. Woohoo!
Ellen White also wrote “[The] world is to be convinced that God has sent His Son as its Redeemer. No other influence that can surround the human soul has such power as the influence of an unselfish life. The strongest argument in favor of the gospel is a loving and lovable Christian.”
A book is no substitute for a person.
The mark of a christian is beautifully described by a number of biblical passages here, mamy in Jesus’ own words: http://www.biblebay.org/article/123/study-tools/discovery-study-guides/the-mark-of-a-christian
No apology letter needed … nor distribution of books of any kind. Just ordinary people like you and me being aware of God’s loving devotion to us as affirmed by the Gospel of Jesus and confessing Jesus as Creator, Redeemer, and returning Brother to claim us for eternity.
Beautiful words Mr.s Garber, I truly agree with you. My question is, how will the Gospel be spread? Only by living exemplary/loving lives and giving silent witness until we are approached/asked about our faith by an interested soul?
Or, instead of distributing tracts/books, what is the alternative? I ask without any animosity and in good faith.
I apologize, I meant to write Mr. Garber, not Mr.s
If it is an either or, I’d pick the book free option, Orion.
So I was enjoying a conversation with a conference personal evangelism leader recently. His sense is that members ‘are not fully converted’ or we would see church growth.
Isn’t that what it always is? If members would only get up earlier, stay up later, read the bible more, pray more, be more devoted, be more determined to witness, and of course contribute more to the church, the church would grow.
Well, those sermons are not resulting in church growth either.
How about pastors assume that each person attending church this morning is fully prepared to be used of the Holy Spirit just exactly as they are this very day, this very moment.
After all, we are not called to explain anything as Christians.
We are assured that the question will always be about our experience and the best answer will always be a simple testimony to our faith.
As Paul notes (1 Cor 13) knowledge vanishes, spiritual practices cease, and prophecy fails … eventually all of it. But faith, trust, and love endure for eternity.
We don’t have to quote a single bible verse.
We don’t have to explain a single belief.
People will be attracted to us and will want to share time with us, including church time. The rest will take care of itself. And my guess is that a lot of it will simply be overlooking by us all, just as happened in Acts 15.
Thank you, Mr. Garber, for sharing your answer. I respect your answer and do agree with it, with all sincerity. As a young adult, there have been times in my wal with God where I’ve felt I was neglecting internal piety (love) only to comply with the “check list” of spiritual “duties” (“read your Bible, pray every day, and you’ll grow, grow, grow!”, like the children’s song says). Spirituality became a chore.
There something Mr. Noel wrote above that I find to be very true and wholehartedly agree with. It said something along the lines that evangelistic campains often times focus so much on the prophetic events rather than show others the wondrous love of Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for humankind.
I have the priviledge of giving Bible studies weekly, to people I’ve met in the bank, at the grocery store, at the laundry mat, etc. All these Bible study contacts came about as the result of everything you just wrote.
(this is the second part of my response, the first part starts with “Thank you” 🙂
In fact, I do not even invite them to church but tell them I am doing my best effort to present Christ to them, and that the Gospel tells the story of a loving God who wants a relationship with them and who will come soon to eradicate evil and to restore this world to its original design. I also tell them to search for themselves and to decide for themselves whether or not what I am telling is accurate or not.
I completely understand your point.
However, just like planting spiritual seeds seems to be my strength, my opinion is that church members have been granted a diversity of gifts: one member is gifted giving Bible studies, another leading out prison ministries, while yet another has better interpersonal skills,etc.
We cannot pick and choose and impose which outreach method is best, in this day and age, because only God knows whic method will reach which person. We have to try it all and leave no stone unturned.
Even worst, we cannot apologize to the leader of the false system of worship, to the leader of deceitfulness, mailing books that contain powerful truths which have yet to be disproved.
While I staunchly defend the mass-mailings of truth filled books, I do not narrow my outreach options to just that method.
Thanks for sharing!
I am so supporting you Orion! I am inspired so I am sure your friends are.
Bill, since you happen to cite and quote Ellen White; all things considered and given all that is attributed to her, would you think that she would approve or disapprove of the dissemination of The Great Controversy this month in U.S.; that is, would she advocate on behalf of its distribution, or advocate against its distribution?
Do you agree or disagree with my “two camps” theory as relates to today’s Seventh-day Adventists; and if not, why not?
You are digging deep here Stephen. I like that!
I’m thinking that the arc of Ellen White’s editing of the Great Controversy by now would have resulted in a new metaphor of the spiritual forces at the end of time that is beyond her classical Protestant – Roman Catholic reunion. What do you sense her vision of the world today would be where Christians hardly numbers 1/3 of the world’s population?
I’m also thinking that she would be pointing out that where the church is growing it is growing by personal witness. I sense that she would suggest that it is a waste of funds to print books destined for dumpsters and that the depersonalized nature of generic mail distribution is of itself, dare I use the term, anti-Christ. She made startling statements in her time, and I wold not be surprised if she would attach anti-Christ to method as well as message at some point and perhaps to all forms of broadcast media.
So, as you can see, I’m looking to a one-camp Seventh-day Adventist church, because it is my sense is that this is Jesus’ will since the beginning of time and is his commitment for eternity.
“The publications sent forth from our printing houses are to prepare a people to meet God. Throughout the world they are to do the same work that was done by John the Baptist for the Jewish nation. By startling messages of warning, God’s prophet awakened men from worldly dreaming. Through him God called backsliding Israel to repentance. By his presentation of truth he exposed popular delusions. In contrast with the false theories of his time, truth in his teaching stood forth as an eternal certainty. “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,” was John’s message. Matthew 3:2. This same message, through the publications from our printing houses, is to be given to the world today….
“In a large degree through our publishing is to be accomplished the work of that other angel [of Revelation 18] who comes down from heaven with great power and who lightens the earth with his glory.”—Testimonies for the Church 7:139, 140
Now, my understanding is that this was written or published in 1902. While personal contact is preferable in the dissemination of the vitally important information; where does it indicate that it is the only means we should ever use to distribute vital warning information?
After all, the image of an angel in Revelation 18 (coming down from heaven and shouting in a loud voice) is not exclusively one on one contact.
Bill,
I know this is politically and/or religiously incorrect (as in not great etiquette to think, much less say) but I believe your “one-camp Seventh-day Adventist church,” is obviously not current reality; and probably not reality at all. In any case, it is a dodge of my question; which had to do with attitudes and opinions regarding the content of The Great Controversy and the distribution of that particular book.
Stephen,
In response to your comments just below … Very well thought out comments that expand our conversation and for which I thank you …
As for the camps you describe … I believe there is a third camp, too; those who neither push or push back against the distribution of the great Controversy. As a non-European member commented about the Great Controversy, “That is a U.S. matter. It does not involve us.” If this is the sense beyond the U.S., those areas where the church is most rapidly growing … and they are not big with the Great Controversy … how might we respond?
My read is those who ignore the Great Controversy are the vast majority of the membership world wide, especially where growth is strongest. Those who push back against Great Controversy distribution are a distant second in number. And those who push for wholesale distribution are a very small share of the membership, not even 1% of membership.
I am Jim not Bill.
Computerized mass mailing services did not exist in Ellen’s time. All mail was being addressed by hand. The postal service did not distribute computer databases of all deliverable residential addresses in a ZIP code or a carrier route, or offer Carrier Route Pre-sort service, or the ability to address mail to “Postal Patron” on a carrier route.
When she said her books were to be widely disseminated it was by personal contact. And church publications were mailed to people whose addresses were known. Either they or someone who knew them had provided their contact information.
Now it is fair to point-out that radio and television and the Internet did not exist in Ellen’s time (though the earliest computers were developed in the 19th century). I do not think we can say with any degree of certainty what she would do or advise us to do in the 21st century. But she did leave us a few clues, like her various statements that time and place and circumstance must be taken into account when applying her counsel.
Jim,
The one constant in her counsels about how we should be working to win souls is personal contact to minister in the power of the Holy Spirit. That approach is timeless and transcends technology.
Definitely you are a planted Jesuit Taylor
Ervin Taylor. If this is a joke I am not laughing. If this is you needing some attention. You got a minute of mine but that’s all you are going to get.
Remnant publications does not represent Adventism. Great controversy was the book that brought me to this church but context and strategy is more effective than the Remnant guerrilla tactics. The truth spoken at the right time in the right place is much more effective than this desperate attempt. In no place in the Bible or in the writings of Ellen white it is proposed that we must confront people with the truth but we should do it in a loving way. Remnant Publications should be closed and forbidden to use the name Seventh day Adventist until they convert to a true representation of Jesus and learn from Him how to preach the gospel. And you Ervin I believe you had a good intention but the word apology would not be a good one. Your letter should be sent to Remnant Publications asking them to step down and close their doors in order to do some soul searching.
With the denomination’s giving in to the plra of the popr downsizing of Great controversy especialy those sections that attackthe Roman Catholic,this letter is not a surprise….the SDA btoke that very law that makes them a distinct and perculiar people.ln world wars yhey encouraged their members to go to war and broke the Dabbath commandment and the one that forbids taking of life.May it be a wake up call to all SDAs esp when we tealise they apologised for the the breaking
of that law and persecution that was done to the faithful few who compose the IMS Reform movement.But intrestingly will not repent to follow God’s commandment keeping people.May God have mercy yo those who are jelous of his law and love His soon appearing.
I am only sharing this as a perfect example of how a deranged mind will do anything for fame and fortune. Go ahead copy and paste any section of that letter and search the Internet. Now ask yourself why this guy happens to have the only copy of it on Sept 15, 2015 and why this official letter was NOT posted on any official SDA site at any level? If a copy of this letter went to to every conference in the world, someone would have added it to their site We should see hundreds of copies on official sites. This is a clear example of a hoax. The author stands naked before God and this world without a shred of evidence to cover himself. I think if a letter of apology is required, that author owes this world a full confession and apology.
Stuff like this makes me wonder if Jesus is judging the living at this moment and if that guys name came up.
Hi, This is mere propaganda to taint the name of Eld Ted. The article writer is just speculative with minimal facts. Time will tell. Otherwise let out trust be in God Almighty.
I don’t believe this AT ALL.
What a nonsense, stupid, idiot, outrageous and blasphemous article. And surely a very strong indicator of the nature of its author! I don’t know if he is a member of the SDA Church, but if this is the case, he should be disfellowshipped immediately!
Ervin, you sound like a Jesuit. people must be warned of the coming storm. The pope is the Anti-Christ. The great controversy book is the book the unmask the pope’s deceptions to enslave peoples mind and to enforce the mark of the beast, which is Sunday worship.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Jean,
Take a good look into your heart, through the Holy Scripture, and by the Holy Spirit, and see if there is anything “Anti-Christ” hiding there.
Pointing the finger at others as the “anti-Christ” is nothing more than avoiding the things in that “dark place”. Let the Light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shine in your heart and you will clearly see that you need the Spirit of Jesus to work in you.
While many fool themselves about this apparent “Sunday law”, they are totally oblivious of the fact that many companies these days require employees to work on the Saturday (Sabbath). Take your pick: Money, or honor God by keeping His Sabbath, and spending time with Him, at least one day a week.
And, no, the “woman” is not the SDA church. It is Judah.
Ervin Taylor, te lo escribo en español que me parece más interesante….arrepientete y bautizate para que vuelvas al pueblo de Dios, Él te está esperando con los brazos abiertos, pero si sigues en el camino de la mentira, no entrarás en su reino. Piénsalo.
Part One
Roberto on September 15, 2015 at 10:58 am said:
“Ervin Taylor, te lo escribo en español que me parece más interesante….arrepientete y bautizate para que vuelvas al pueblo de Dios, Él te está esperando con los brazos abiertos, pero si sigues en el camino de la mentira, no entrarás en su reino. Piénsalo.”
Translated loosely this a plea to Brother Taylor calling on him to repent, be baptized and return to God’s people. Also to realize that God is waiting with open arms, BUT, if he continues in the way of lies he will not enter into God’s kingdom, it ends with the desire that he consider it all carefully.
Actually I am much more concerned with Roberto’s eternal destiny that Ervin Taylor’s. Let me explain why. You see, liberal Christians like Brother Taylor and I are actually more “Christ-like” than some conservative Christians. We’re the people who support ideas and policies that:
• Help the poor and elderly.
• Want to give all Americans access to health care.
• Oppose war unless it’s absolutely necessary.
• Teach acceptance, not discrimination.
• Think every person should have access to an education.
• Embrace hope, love and forgiveness.
I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. We are the Christians who look at Jesus Christ and see a man who dedicated his life to defending the needy, the impoverished and the sick. And those are the kind of values we think our church and our government should share as well, although we don’t think…(See…
Part Two
we don’t think our religion should be mixed with our government. After all, this is a nation built on the freedom of religion – the antithesis to a theocracy. Oh, and we also don’t believe that the best way to help the poor is by making the rich even richer. And the truth is, neither did Jesus.
At the foot of the cross we are all on level ground.
But at the end of the day, despite what some conservatives may say or think, there are tens of millions of liberal Christians out there and in many ways we’re much more closer to following the actual teachings of Jesus Christ than they are. Because our version of Jesus is a man who stood for love, forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance and devoted his life to helping the needy, the poor and the elderly.
I don’t always agree with Brother Taylor, but I would not mind if her were my neighbor in heaven, or you for that matter. God loves us all.
Sam,
Since when is coservative Adventist theology (a spiritual matter) equal to polical conservatism (a secular matter)?
Since when do Adventist conservatives believe that religion and government should mix?
Have you met conservative ADVENTIST Christians that are pro war? agains helping the poor and needy? Agaisnt offering acccess to healthcare to all who needed? (there is a huge difference between offering access to health care for all and making it mandatory, under a penalty. Huge difference).
Since when does a true follower of Christ – be him/her a conservative Adventist or a conservative non-Adventist – reject hope, love and forgiveness?
Since when does excersing forgiveness, love, acceptance and pouring out our lives to help the needy supersede the commandment (given by non other than Christ!) found in Matthew 28:19,20; ESPECIALLY its latter part, in verse 20?
I’m wishing more Adventists would fall so deeply in love with God that they’ll forget to use political labels when talking about others and instead view people in two groups: those who need to learn about God’s redeeming and transforming love and those who have become empowered by God to minister that love to others and are doing it.
Orion: “Since when do Adventist conservatives believe that religion and government should mix?”
They mix in our modern political system known as the welfare state. When you pay your taxes, or even if your church is tax exempt, you are mixing the religious and secular. because the state now takes the responsibility, (admittedly this doesn’t happen to the same extent in the US as in, say, Australia or Canada, or Europe), to provide health care, shelter, feeding, etc for the poor. All or most of those things that you are exhorted to do to care for those less fortunate, your taxes contribute to. It may not be sufficient, so more help is called-for, but it is definitely a mixing of what used to be two systems. Yes, its a form of ‘socialism,’ but its democratic in nature, ie, its part of this government by the people for the people. From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs, up to a point.
“Have you met conservative ADVENTIST Christians that are pro war? agains helping the poor and needy? Agaisnt offering acccess to healthcare to all who needed?”
I do know such people. Some are close friends of mine, though I do not share their views.
“(there is a huge difference between offering access to health care for all and making it mandatory, under a penalty. Huge difference).”
It is interesting how many have bought the political rhetoric conflating “access to health care” with “access to medical insurance”. By US federal law, universal access to health care has been mandated for decades now. This is not the same as equal access to health care which even now is not mandated in the US. And like many federal mandates, the states are left with much of the responsibility for funding universal access to health care.
We have a seriously messed-up model for funding health care in the USofA. Whether the Affordable Care Act has actually made things better or worse is certainly debatable. A fair case can be made that it is a mixture of both.
“I’m wishing more Adventists would fall so deeply in love with God that they’ll forget to use political labels when talking about others and instead view people in two groups: those who need to learn about God’s redeeming and transforming love and those who have become empowered by God to minister that love to others and are doing it.”
Wait a minute Brother Noel, wasn’t it you who recently called me a Marxist under my column (wherein I was critical of the President of the United States)? Is Marxist not a political label; or perhaps stronger than that?
Stephen,
Truth hurts, doesn’t it? Pointing-out that you’re a Marxist in your political philosophy is pretty mild compared to some of the things Jesus called the spiritual leaders of His day.
No, the truth doesn’t hurt; you should try it some time. The point of course is that you said, “I’m wishing more Adventists would fall so deeply in love with God that they’ll forget to use political labels when talking about others…” Those were your words and your wishes…after having recently affixed a political label to yours truly.
Then when the irony and hypocrisy of what you wish is pointed out to you, you double down on your “use of political labels when talking about” me to me. I’m not hurt, I’m actually quite amused.
So, which is it my brother? Do you wish to “fall so deeply in love with God that [you’ll] forget to use political labels when talking about others;” or is that a wish for “Adventists” other than yourself?
(There’s that sense of perpetual privilege, again!)
Stephen,
Hypocrisy is claiming to believe in God while embracing a political philosophy where an essential part of that body of teaching is the destruction of faith in God. It is claiming to be Adventist and a defender of religious freedom and warning others about the Pope while supporting what he has stated is how he will get governments working in cooperation with His spiritual authority.
Believers in Jesus know the difference and love Him enough to repent and abandon such philosophies. Believers also recognize falsehood and hypocrisy and call on others to leave it.
This is a propaganda. I don’t believe this. And I can say it unequivocally that this is not coming from Elder TED desk. please be aware of Jesuits in our mist.
I don’t see anything wrong with the book to be distriburted if you read your bible with a prayful heart you would see the book is on point with the bible but we choose to follow man traditional ideas we will see pope can’t stop the hands of God Satan could not and he is being used by the devil so we all need to choose who we will follow man or god
Loma Linda Psychiatric Chief would have to called in to see if the President’s mind is in a state of disrepair. Satan and his allies knows they have but a short time. Another of the testimonies that we are in troublesome times!!!
Ervin Taylor, why don’t you write an apology letter to the Pope, on behalf of AToday, or on behalf of yourself?
Since you do not believe in Ted Wilson’s leadership and in your eyes he is not a good leader, why do you want him to be the one writting this letter???
Take your own sugestion, put your money where your mouth is, take the innitiative and write your own letter and send it to the Pope, simple.
Amen!!!
It’s just a writer’s opinion, I respect his,… But I don’t accept! I great thanks The Holy Farther in Heaven cause His message has carried faithfully by his righteousness persons to expected people. Praise The Lord Our God!
Actually the distribution of the Great Controversy prior to the arrival of the pope Francis is provocation to the Pontiff and it does not have any relationship with evangelization. The SDA Church itself under Ted Wilson has gone astray. The first believers as someone has said was not characterized by Great Controversy book distribution, rather were characterized by the love of brothers, helping the widows and orphans. Those who were in Texas in few months ago, you saw how the Church Leadership refused to accomodate the women for the evangelization of the gospel. TED Wilson had to authorize to create news Unions in Africa and in other parts of the world who were to support him for being reelected and support him for refusing the accomadation women not to be Pastors so that we may spread the gospel as much as possible as to hasten the second coming of Jesus. What we cannot understand is how the church is mailling the book which was written by Ellen G.White, a lady who was inspired by the Holy Spirit and he was even better than the Leaders we have today but on the other hand the Church Administration is hindering the Ladies to be ordained for the Cause!
This is rediculous. It is high time that our church should change and leave out the politics.
More than that, we need to become supremely confident of the power of God to empower those who believe and defeat sin instead of the supposed followers of Jesus being paralyzed by fear that we might be deceived, as is so common today.
“The first believers as someone has said was not characterized by Great Controversy book distribution, rather were characterized by the love of brothers, helping the widows and orphans.”
Please tell the whole story… What else were the first believers doing in the book of Acts?
Val,
In response to your remarks and questions posted: September 15, 2015 at 2:54:
No, I do not “feel guilt or condemnation”; but she has, on more than one occasion, used methods of intimidation. I think you are fully aware of that. Or would you describe that as “rebukes”?
As for her being a “prophet of God”, have you read the following passages in the one and only God-Inspired Writings: Isa. 3:10-12; Rev. 2:20-23? Take note of the offspring, the oppressors, and what will happen to them. There is no doubt what spirit is behind all this EGW business.
No, I do not have trouble with John the Baptist. John sent his disciples to Jesus because they needed to know Jesus, who would baptise them with the Holy Spirit. Remember, John was thrown into prison; have you ever been in deep spiritual distress, being attached by demonic forces which have filled your mind with doubts, even to the point where you doubted the Spirit of Jesus was there to help you? Faith, my friend, the Faith of Jesus; only He will pulls us through those dark hours.
Mr Taylor….I am going to tell you of my first reaction in reading your proposed letter of apology to who – your holiness??!!.Excuse me!!! My stomach was wrenching – nauseous. My heart was angry – jealous for the cause of God and His Ultimate Sacrifice of His Son for me. Are you completely ignorant of the scriptures, Revelation 13, 14, 17 and 18? Equally are you completely ignorant of the history of Rome from its inception, the dark ages, the inquisition, the deaths of millions, Fox’s Book of Martyrs, the Reformation. Have you read any of your Bible lately to see that prophecy is fulling right before our very eyes as nothing before, how the pope is using every tactic th
Susan,
Have you looked into you own heart to see how Revelation 13, 14, 17 and 18 might apply to you?
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near”. Rev. 1:3. Do not these words apply to all who read the Book of Revelation, throughout this world’s history and not only for those living today?
Beware of powers in high places. The Great Controversy was written in respect to known history. The Roman Catholic Church has had a hand in directing nefarious activity in World Affairs at least since the 3rd Century A.D. They established their control of God on Earth, according to their “TRADITION”. The early opposition to Islamic encroachment, and before, on Africa, up in to Spain was usually considered to be “HOLY WARS”, with the Catholic Church allied with the Christian Nations of the West leading “CRUSADES. The Church controlling the masses by keeping them uneducated and ignorant. The Bible “chained to the wall”, and not available, until the 14th Century in mass produced editions. The Church’s
history of evil deeds of coercion of nations by
forcing acceptance of the “PAPACY”, on pain of death, by fire, after torture, of hundreds of thousands. The Far East controlled by the JESUITS, in their alliances with governments. In the early and middle centuries A.D. the Christian control pushed forward by Roman and Holy Roman Empire Armies, and ventures into the North and South Americas, by armed power enforcement. The Jesuits have long been a competitive force within the Catholic Church, known to be the Militant faction that whipped all into order. They have been strong in Education and missionary zeal. They have never supplied until now a “sitting Pope”. CONT>
Dear Francis,
Adventists have a history of catholic-bashing and that continues with some of the right wingers, of which I am one, in our church today. Within the confines of my church I do that too. But no way will I do that publicly in the media, but I will do it in an evangelistic campaign.
The liberals want to smooth things over, but we know your church is of the devil and has made a devastating mess throughout history.,even if you still say noble things that sound good on the surface, we know that they are just a cover up for more sinister things that are going on.
Repent, remove the mark of the beast from your soul. I am willing at any time to give you Bible studies and explore the Great Controversy book with you. I sure in no time you will be baptised. You would,be such an asset to the Adventist church with your secrets of the inner workings of the beast. We would fly you around the world with endless speaking appointments, a regular program on 3ABN and even Hope Channel. I assure you, you could have even more influence that you have now.
Come and join The Remnant. Embrace The Message. You don’t realise it yet, but you could even have power over God, because with your help we could get the message of The Three Angels’ Message to the whole world so fast Jesus would come back almost instantly once the world hears you have joined us. One press release and worldwide statement from you and the whole world would know – then Jesus could come back! Talk to me…
… Talk to me. I’m ready to talk to you. Come and see me before you meet Obama, then you will have a global platform to share the True Message. The moment of decision is now.
Ted
The Adventist Pope!
You’ve nailed it! Talk about saying it as it is. Love your honesty about how hints really are.
There are indeed many books written with warnings against the Adventist Church, and suppose for a moment our very own Pastor Wilson were to pay a formal visit to the Pope’s Argentina and a translation of “The White Lie” were to be mailed out to all addresses in Buenos Aires by the Knights of Columbus, just days before Brother Wilson’s plane landed.
I think in such a case a high-placed apology would be appropriate. Granted Argentina is not the US, but Francis is a Latin man and a gifted communicator with immense influence at any level, a heavyweight among gifted orators. He is certainly aware of this mailing, and I can imagine him saying, crisply and with level eye to the cameras, “For a church that does so much good around the world, Adventist manners fall terribly short of the ways of their Master.”
We must circulate the Truth, surely, but openly confrontational ways are probably one of the less effective approaches for doing so. As we share Bible Truth, it is far more natural and inestimably more effective to seek methods that clearly identify us as possessing the Spirit and manner of Jesus…. I’ve been out there. I know.
I think Ellen White’s views about using the Great Controversy to spread the Truth are well known but just in case we forget here are a few quotes from later in her life 🙂
“The Great Controversy should be very widely circulated. It contains the story of the past, the present, and the future. In its outline of the closing scenes of this earth’s history, it bears a powerful testimony in behalf of the truth. I am more anxious to see a wide circulation for this book than for any others I have written, for in The Great Controversy, the last message of warning to the world is given more distinctly than in any of my other books.” – Letter 281, 1905
“The book, The Great Controversy, I appreciate above silver and gold, and I greatly desire that it shall come before the people. While writing the manuscript of The Great Controversy, I was often conscious of the presence of the angels of God. And many times the scenes about which I was writing were presented to me anew in visions of the night so that they were fresh and vivid in my mind.” – Letter 56, 1911
Please don’t forget her instruction that her books should be given to people AFTER we make personal contact and discern if there is spiritual interest. We’re wasting time and resources if we don’t obey that part of her instructions.
With all due respect, Mr. Taylor, your article is horrible. It does not reflect the brain of a discerning writer. I think your idea manifests delusion and idiotic leanings.
This article coincides with the publication of another article, on CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/13/us/pope-francis-non-catholic-flock/index.html
This article can be easily incorporated into the CNN article.
CONT> Ellen White, in writing the “Great Controversy”, ably documented the heresies, and demand for the masses to conform to their doctrines and leadership, which suffered the so called “DARK AGES”. They were able to do this by fear, pain, and murder.
Now the question today in the 21st Century is:
Can a Leopard change it’s spots???? And is the persecution, soon to be world wide, of the masses, to be organized by the Roman Catholic Church, in conjunction with the WORLD organization, the UNITED NATIONS in solid control with armies and policing, by marching orders issued by a “ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT” ELITE
consortium of BANKERS and Environmentalists, who control 90% of the worlds wealth, about to become a reality???? Watch the action of the Pope’s VISIT to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE U.S. CONGRESS, AND THE UNITED NATIONS, IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS!!!!!!
Remember, “POWER IN HIGH PLACES
Val,
In response to your remarks on September 15, 2015:
You give no explanation to those Scripture passages you quoted. And nor should you have, that is, in relation to this world and its politics. But what do those passages mean spiritually? One thing is for certain, the “man of sin, the son of perdition” of 2 Thess. 2 have similarities with “the abomination which causes desolation”, spoken of Daniel and Jesus. Where is that “temple” which is described in those passages? Is not the heart of man the Temple of God? And the “beasts” of Revelation, are they not overcome by the Spirit of Jesus Who “fills all in all”? The Spirit of Jesus is working in the hearts of all true believers, working from the inside out, expelling all things which do not belong in His Temple.
There are many “anti-Christ”.
Babylon is in the heart of all who buy and sell the goods of this world; inspired by the desires of that “queen of heaven” to posses all material goods on offer—covertness, which is idolatry. And it will fall.
“God has used EGW mightily to refocus SDAs and other Christians to study the Bible for themselves.” I disagree. “And further, my son, be admonished by these. Of making many books there is not end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh”. Eccl. 12:12.
Daniel, re the temple, it is clear we are talking about a temple that can be measured and a temple that has a place for the gentiles (Rev. 11:1-2). This is clearly the temple described in Hebrews, the heavenly temple where Jesus ministers. As to our place, Eph. 2:6 states that we are placed in heavenly places in Christ, meaning that we all have a place in heaven right now. As to the beasts, the issue is clearly worship. Please read the entire Rev. 13 and you can see that it is all about worshiping the beast and the image of the beast. That is why the 3rd angel’s message warns us not to worship the beast and its image (Rev. 14:9-10). By the time you come to Rev. 14:12, you realize that worship, keeping the commandments and judgments are all intertwined. We do not have to guess! You are certainly welcome to strictly spiritualize those verses, but keep in mind that in doing that you can make the verses anything you want them to be.
Do you really believe that in Eccl. 12:12 Solomon was counseling us not to read and write books about the knowledge of God, about His character, about the salvation of others, and about the return of Jesus? Such reading of the verses defies the entire Bible because God wants us to know Him.
BTW, since you are in Eccl 12, look what Solomon says re worship and keeping the commandments of God: 13 Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or…
Val,
Rev. 11:2 also states to “leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months”. Does this not mean the Gentles have little reverence toward the city of God?
The Heavenly Temple where Jesus is ministering is in our hearts, the Temple of God. All believers who have been resurrected to a new life in Christ are seated with Him in Heavenly places. He is preparing that “place” in all believers to be with Him for eternity. There is nothing in God which needs cleansing nor is He at enmity with us; we need to be cleansed and reconciled to Him. This is what the Ministry of Jesus our High Priest is all about.
Solomon was counselling everyone not go beyond what is written in the Holy Scriptures. The advice that “much study is wearisome to the flesh” is clearly evident today by the millions of Christian books on offer. How would you go if you were to read them all? Or should we only choose the ones we think are God-inspired? And which ones would they be? Do you know everything there is to know about the things written in the Bible? I certainly know I don’t. Would you rather get your understanding of the Holy Scriptures second-hand, through other people, or by the Holy Spirit?
Measuring in the Bible is widely accepted as referring to judgment and in Rev. 11:1-2 specifically to judgment of God’s people. As to the gentiles, this means that their judgment comes after the judgment of the house of the Lord. “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17.
You keep saying that our hearts are the temple where Jesus is ministering, but there is nothing in the Bible to support this. Yes, the Bible says in 1 Cor. 6 that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but this does not mean the temple where Jesus conducts His intercessory ministry. He conducts His ministry as high priest before God (seated at right hand of God Heb. 8, over the house of God Heb 10, the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands & not of this creation Heb 9:11, not with the blood of goats and calves but with His own blood He entered the holy places Heb 9:12). Before ascending, Mary saw Jesus in the garden and He told her to tell His brethren that He is ascending to the Father. See also Rev. 4 & 5 where John sees the heavenly temple (notice the 7 lamps of fire before the throne, just like the earthly temple).
As to which books to read, this is the standard:
“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Is. 8:20.
Val,
In Rev. 11:2 regarding the “Gentiles”, I think this refers to the Christian Gentiles, who are trampling the “outer court of the temple” until their hearts have been completely made subject to Christ.
Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you”, John 14:2 ; that “place” is our hearts, we need “preparing” to be with Him, not Heaven/God.
“23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23
You wrote: “As to which books to read, this is the standard: “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Is. 8:20. But before that verse is reads: “19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” Verse 19.
Who is dead and who is alive? EGW is dead, and her works do follow her. Jesus Christ is alive and so are the Holy Scriptures, because the Holy Spirit, Who inspired them, is also alive.
Correction: Should have wrote, “spoken of by Daniel and Jesus, not “spoken of Daniel and Jesus”.
Having been involved a great deal in public evangelism in both North and South America, it’s amazing how much greater the initial tolerance for anti-Catholic information is here in the US, compared to countries to our south.
In my experience, cultural concerns are extremely important when determining how to approach any audience with gospel overtures. I remember one case where we opened an evangelistic series with a presentation on Daniel 2 and recognized almost immediately that we were “losing the audience.” That night I rewrote the sermons with far more emphasis on Christ, and audience attention and interest immediately increased. I also determined not to say anything, at any time, demeaning to the Catholic leader, and I held to that vow, until the people themselves began flooding forward and pointing out to me that their own Pope seemed to be behaving a great deal like the Antichrist of the Bible. I replied that some Bible scholars have indeed made the comparison, but that my purpose in the meetings was not to comment on Catholicism, but to share what God has in mind for those who will be saved when Jesus comes on that blessed day. The people themselves made the connection, and dozens were baptized, far more than the local Mission expected or had experienced in previous crusades where the Papacy was roundly excoriated.
Edwin,
Well stated.
No doubt many are displaying the spirit of anti-christ. And as you discovered, people need to hear about Jesus Christ, their personal Saviour, and not about the world, nor its politics; even though we are all affected by what those in power do and will do.
Jesus said: “33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16:31-33.
Excellent comment Edwin!
No wonder Jesus has bid us to be wise as serpents and harmless like doves. We have to be careful not to become stumbling blocks or offenses for others because it will defeat the purpose of the truth being shared. It is a fine balance! Often think of it as neither condemning, nor condoning.
Eye roll. Someone forwarded this link to me and I just don’t get it. Why are Adventists reading this non-SDA magazine? Yes, it’s owned by a non-Adventist. While Spectrum is an SDA magazine, this one is not. Yet its presentations is deceptive, implying it represents Adventists today.
Ervin – If you had ever been to Rome and seen the Church of Jesus for yourself, with its graphic frescoes portraying the killing of Protestants, and heard its afternoon animated pageant, you would never ever feel as you do. That does NOT make one a Catholic-hater. It’s just plain truth. Nor would you ever address a human being as Your Holiness!
#1 – Thanks to Cherie the (“Eye Roll”) for her clarification about the nonsensical masquerade from “Adventist Today” – the only SDA’s I know are the ones who read the Bible and our literature that helps us understand the times we live in.
#2 – My Protestant ancestors left France after the Huguenot Wars and came to America to worship without being persecuted and murdered. So far the history and predictions of the Bible and the GREAT CONTROVERSY are accurate.
#3 – That being said, I actually donated money to REMNANT PUBLICATIONS to help print and distribute the GREAT CONTROVERSY books. I think I’ll double down on the next effort to get the GREAT CONTROVERSY out to anyone who will read it.
Praise God!
Before you do that, I want to suggest you read what Ellen White wrote about how her books, including “The Great Controversy,” were to be distributed. She wrote about seeing “a great army” of workers, mostly young, who went out two-by-two making contact with people and giving her books to those who they discovered were interested in spiritual topics. That contrasts with the approach of Remnant Publications, which is to just send out mass numbers of copies without the personal contact first to find out if there is any spiritual interest. How can you expect God to bless a mass mail-out when that isn’t how we were told the books should be distributed?
Basically I agree with this comment, William.
I would point-out there are many examples in the Bible and subsequently, where God blessed misguided efforts of humans to serve Him. Praise God! There is still hope for misguided sinners like me. Maybe there is yet a blessing for us from God?
Jim,
If there’s hope for the misguided, I’m one example because I don’t have to look hard to be reminded of some of the lessons God has taught me about the need to obey Him. Sometimes those lessons arrived in the form of somebody letting me know that my idea was based on misinformation.
This letter is overwhelmingly rejected by those represented-Seventh Day Adventist. No victory yet,this is an eye opener that anti Christ is encroaching. Get my greetings from Kenya-Africa. Its prayer and fasting to denounce basing our facts from the Holy Bible
Mr. Omondi, it is very important to highlight that Ted Wilson has not written nor will he ever write such a letter.
The letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking.
Jeffrey,
You wrote on September 15, 2015 at 12:56 pm:
“Rome as the mother of harlots”.
If you look at Rev.18:24, it reads:
“24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” “Of all who were slain on the earth”? Doesn’t that go all the way back to Abel? I don’t see Rome back there, do you? But where do murders come from? From the heart of man; and they have existed since the fall of man.
Your interpretation of Babylon and the “Mother of Harlots” does not quite fit. What about that “queen of heaven”, to which the women baked cakes and worshipped, with the consent of their husbands?
What is the most absurd and shocking thing about this article is the gutless, cowardly backpedaling from the author of the very nature of calling out wickedness! The RCC was, is, and continues to be the same despotic and wicked organ that not only kills and oppresses those it opposes, but further victimizes their victims!
case in point: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/09/victims_partly_to_blame_in_priest_sex-abuse_cases_syracuse_bishop_testified.html
Mr. Taylor; come “together” for what? Solve the world’s ills? It’s never been done, and never will – only Christ can remedy the sickness called sin. No ecumenical alliance, no political takeover, no man-made laws will ever accomplish that. I’m actually embarrassed for you, but I pray you come to your senses. We are called OUT of Babylon – not to have a tea party with it’s purveyors!
Imagine the SDA church committing these incredibly dark and deranged murders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYCob4NLvNw&feature=share
THEN, asking the world to accommodate and join it for a grand kum-ba-yah! What on earth is wrong with you Mr. Taylor? As a history buff, I have read tome after textbook from secular historians that have all concluded the RCC is a sick puppy – join it? Heck no!
SINCE THIS MAN APOLOGIZING TO THE POPE FOR THIS BOOK TALKING ABOUT BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS AN BEING VERY DESCRIBING ABOUT WHO THE HARLOT IS … JUST AS IN THE BIBLE. THIS APOLOGIZING IS NOT FROM A TRUE PROTESTANT. THIS MAN WHO REPRESENTS OUR CHURCH MUST BE A JESUIT OR FROM ANOTHER SECRET SOCIETY SINCE HE HAS DONE THIS. JESUIT ORDER ALWAYS TAKING LEADERSHIP ROLE AND PERVERTING PROTESTANTISM.
Greg,
Welcome.
Please do us a favor and turn-off your Caps-lock unless you want to be perceived as shouting at someone. Also, if you are replying to someone, please click on the “reply” hyperlink at the bottom of the window where you see their message and write in the box that appears. That way we can follow the message string and connect your words to what was said. Thanks.
Mr. Greg, the letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking. He is not lying, he is proposing that Ted Wilson write an apology letter to the pope.
This man needs to watch Walter Veith and rekindling the reformation and also repairing the breach and his lecturing on secret society and read the book on vadican assassins .
To those lazy SdA pew warmers financially supporting RP be sure to dedicate a portion of the mailings of the GC to your zip code.
Have your name, address, phone number, email address, etc. prominently displayed so the recipients can thank you personally.
Or leave the book at your address for recycling.
Brothers and sisters we are in the end of times and GOD is doing His work He is cleaning His churches and as we can see that our conference leader just following the pope that tells us that we have to stay strong because God warned us about the end that the unexpected people will be your enemies guys we have to act now we have to pray and if you use to pray one day now pray extra if you can do it every day so that you may ask Jesus to write your names in the book of life do not be surprised about the world we need to embrace it and be happy because God is almost there for His bride
In fear of God His Glory have to trumph but not Man why tremble for man seek It is time to have wisdom Jesus is coming.
brethren this is the time for us to work boldly just as John,Paul,Elijah and many more, because time is going down faster than expected. should we apologize to the beast? NO! lets expose him as bible and E.G.White did in the prophecy she received.
i an my SDA family we shall not bow to the beast as others who are not of this family will give us reasons to.
to GOD be the glory,papacy is the beast no turn back
I am very concerned that this rumor (caused by an irresponsible and incendiary article written by a thoughtless Ervin Taylor) will cause panic/uproar in other parts of the vinyard.
Brethren, I’d rather you not spread this vile article around, let’s not expose the filth to the world!
But if you must and if you will share this article, then please, do so responsibly..
The letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking. He is proposing that Ted Wilson write an apology letter to the pope.
Thankfully, Ted Wilson’s letter of apology to the pope will only be written in Ervin Taylor’s immagination!!
I agree with all of you, but can someone please produce a signed copy of the same. Can the GC make a statement on this accusation please, Otherwise I don’t want to condemn someone for something that he has not done. Anything is possible. But if this is true, its very unfortunate. Let us pray to Go to give His Church strength.
Mr. Kamwendo, the letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking. He is not lying, he is proposing that Ted Wilson write an apology letter to the pope.
Ervin Taylor , show the letter signed by Ted Wilson Where is the letter signed by Ted Wilson? You are a liar and liars will not go to heaven
The letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking. He is not lying, he is proposing that Ted Wilson write an apology letter to the pope.
Brethren,Lets pray for our leaders at the General Conference. Lets specially dedicate our President Ted Wilson. The devil wants God’s name trodden upon. we are the light of the world, even in Dark Difficult moments. We must shine Bright.
Ervin please be professional. scan the original letter signed By Ted Wilson, the go ahead and hold it forth as a peace of news. we don’t expect rumours from u.
Mr. Phemmy, the letter only exists in Ervin Taylor’s wishful thinking. He is not lying, he is proposing that Ted Wilson write an apology letter to the pope.
As someone mentioned above, Ted Wilson writing to the Pope would be like one pope writing to another. The position of GC President is like an SDA Pope. Ironically, both have been vehemently opposed to Women’s Ordination and have taken an autocratic leadership style on that issue. Both “popes” are viewed as nearly infallible. The whole SDA hierarchy is like the Catholic hierarchy. Division presidents are like Vatican-based Cardinals. Union presidents are like field-based Cardinals. Conference presidents are like archbishops. Conference area leaders are like bishops. And the GC president is the Pope. The GC headquarters in Mary-land, is the Vatican, and tradition rules over the Bible. It is the GC papacy. It is ironic that SDAs criticize the papacy so harshly, when the are actually so much alike.
Right–and “GC” stands for “General Catholic.” The parallels are striking.
Incoming! The distinctive sound of full metal jacket clad bullets are whizzing toward you, Erv. It’s fascinating that humor is seen as more vile and threatening than contrary arguments or facts.
How fascinating and entertaining it must be for you! It is good to know that you and Ervin are both satisfied seeing all this carnage/back and forth.
You both must be so boooreeed out of your minds, that you have nothing else better to do than to premeditatedly instigate malicousness via “propositions” written in incendiary articles.
How fun! Oh, to watch the Adventist masses go at it!!
How juvenile, immature and irresponsible can you both be?!!
Go up and read some of the comments. Already some Adventist members are thinking that Ted Wilson wrote this non-existing letter!
How pathetic that this is your chosen form of entertainment at the moment, how pathetically sad that you both have nothing better to do.
Shouldn’t you both be reaching out souls to show them Christ?!!
Orion, the purpose of satire is not to invoke pain but laughter. It is a “time-out” from the pomp (much of it imaginary) of religious discourse for a breath of fresh air. Yes, there is an element of ridicule hidden in satire, but , at least in this case, it is aimed at human frailty, an attempt to make a joke of foolishness.
Your pain is self-inflicted. You are in charge of yourself. Nothing happens to yourself that you don’t allow.
You gain nothing by castigating those who see the humor represented here. You are not good and us evil. You don’t have to read or respond to this forum. No, we don’t enjoy your pain, but we don’t accept responsibility for it, either (speaking only for myself).
So, don’t allow yourself to be hurt. Move on. Enjoy your faith. Allow others to enjoy the function of theirs that is different than yours.
As to reaching souls, show me how well the present sober, serious, strategies are working to fill increasing vacancies in church pews?
Satire, yes…
Throw this article out into the internet without implanting even the smallest hint of satire within the article. I am certain that if Mr. Taylor had his way, not only would he impede mailings of the Great Controversy, but will also have his proposed apology letter drafted and sent asap.
This article is denoucing the perceived “regrettable part of SDA heritage” which, Mr. Taylor is convinced, spews a an “anti-Catholic” message.
Please, do not attribute a ‘satirical’ undertone to this article, which is anything but. This article is not a “time-out”, but a direct criticism of the man who (whether you like it or not), is the current president of the Adventist church. This is also a thinly veiled (and very poorly veiled) attempt to discredit the book Great Controvery and, too, inderectly, cast doubt upon who/what is the false system of worship identified in the books of Daniel and Rev. That’s a cop-out. Instead go back and count all comments from various people who are very opposed to Mr. Taylor’s ideas (I am not the only one “hurt” or “castigating”, Mr. Bugs).
Unfortunately for you, Mr. Bugs, this is an open forum. I move on only if I so choose to do so and/or I am forbidden to comment by AToday. Neither thing has yet to happen. (Btw, throughout this article you have stopped by to comment on the “metal…bullets…that are whizzing past/at” Mr. Taylor. If my comments bother you so much, why not move on yourself?
Orion, (a.k.a. the current GC Pres), it’s time to “come out” and admit who you are! Then we can discuss nuances of humor.
Mr. Bugs, I am not hiding. I just decided to not use my name out there in the internet. I am a person who values privacy; the only social media account I have is a Whatssapp account, which comes in handy when making international calls.
I have been a commentator in AToday forums, and just stopped commenting because some of my views were not in alignment with some of AToday views, so I just read the articles instead. A few recent articles, however, piqued my interest and I decided to comment on a few of them using my email account handle (Orion).
My name is Yudelis Elizabeth B. (I am witholding my last name to keep some semblance of privacy, but my first name is so unique, you shouldn’t have trouble finding me). I was born in Dominican Republic and raised in Orlando, FL, where I currently reside. My church membership is currently found at the East Orlando Spanish SDA church, which “belongs” to the Florida Conference.
I am a 30 year old woman, born and raised in the SDA church. I’ve worked at the same company since I graduated high school, and have been involved in various outreach programs for the church troughout the years.
I am all for standing up for truth. I had a conniption after reading this article because some in our midst want to have a buddying friendship with the same entity that blasphemes God’s truth and name.
I do not know what or who else you either want me or expect me to admit about myself…
Copies of picture ID and references which can further corroborate my identity available upon request (I hope it doesn’t cone to that).
Hint: am being satirical 🙂
I applaud this letter and never expected anything like it. May I add that a similar apology needs to be made to every “Sunday Keeper” that the Adventist church has villainized for not viewing “the Sabbath” like they do, currently and in pass times. I am a wounded product of Adventism and although 30 years I’ve been free from them, I still have to sort out all the damage these teachings did to me.
TG, welcome! There are many things to be found here you would not expect. Including a few of us who have also ‘come out of her,…’ ie, SDAism. And since we have done so, our spiritual lives have thrived. We depend on no-one except the Holy Spirit to guide us. We glory in nothing but the cross, by which we are crucified unto the world, and the world is crucified unto us. For freedom Christ has set us free. Please forget all those strange and non-biblical things you heard all those years ago. They need never trouble you. “Peace I give unto you.”
Thanks for the thoughtful response! Your blessing of peace is well received!
lamento tener que leer esto. Al parecer el autor de esta propuesta se le olvida que esta iglesia es profetica y como tal enseña que la primera bestia de apocalipsis 13 es el papado y la segunda el protestantismo apostata y que en jugaran un papel importante en la consecucion de los acontecimientos finales. Que pena me da tener que leer semejante desfachatez. Ted Wilson no debe pedir disculpas a nadie. Por el contrario debe motorizar la distribucion del conflicto de los siglos tal cual lo hizo al inicio de su gestion.
If someone doesn’t believe the Adventist message they should leave the church and find some church that teaches something which is in harmony with their believes. The Adventist church has taught for more then 150 years that the protestant churches are Babylon and the Catholic church is the little horn of Daniel 7, the anti-Christ; if someone doesn’t believe this then they should leave the SDA church.
Bring them in–Bring them in–Bring them in from the field of sin–Bring them in– Bring them in–
Bring the “wandering ones to Jesus”.
Why, do traditional, and ultra conservative SDAS
continually state “if you don’t believe as I do,
you should leave the SDA CHURCH. Get out, form your own church?? Jesus says “Bring them in”.
this is a blood lie letter. because if it was Wilson who wrote this, he would never address Ellen White as a co founder of the Adventist for he knows well church history
Tawomba, the letter DOES NOT EXIST! Ervin Taylor proposes that Ted Wilson should write an apology letter to the pope.
Thankfully, you and I both know that will never happen.
Ervin Taylor is going to have to draft his own apology letter (and be very careful when stating on behalf of whom he is apologizing), and he’s going to have to get his own petition started to gather the signatures of suppossed “Adventists” (lol) who are stupid enough and spiritually blind enough to apologize to the pope.
Once he has prepared all of that, then he will have to find out the correct mailing address to ensure that said letter finds the pope’s hands.
TED WILSON HAS NOT WRITTEN AND WILL NEVER WRITE AN APOLOGY LETTER TO THE POPE.
Please mail the book to me – chimwemwenjala1@gmail.com
We are so insistent on getting it right when it comes to prophecy, dates, and chronologies. We want to have the right verse and chapter for everything and often neglect the right attitude in talking about our God and representing his love. When the Lord returns He will be more concerned about how knowledge was applied than with extent of knowledge. The exercise of faith to please God will make a difference (Hebrews 11:6). Our love and patience with each other will speak volumes about our faith.
The manner we choose in respecting each other, particularly women in ministry, and how we respond to each other’s needs is most important. As we seek to please Him and have a humble character we will reveal our true intentions. This means a willingness to listen, and not just to object to that which sounds different. Even within the remnant fold it is easy to get things wrong, and go off on a bad course. The earnest desire to please God will stir the believer to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit in every worthwhile discussion.
What a preposterous and ridiculous idea. What are we apologizing for; the truth? I pray that hearts are open to the truth of the Bible and along with that Ellen White’s “Great Controversy”. We are in telling times; I pray to be faithful to God.
I don’t see anybody apologizing, but I’m reading comments from a number of people who apparently haven’t read the instructions for how literature is supposed to be distributed. Instead they’ve embraced some romantic but baseless notion that there will be results if we do something in a way other than how we were told to do it and where their involvement is, at most, limited to making a donation or cheering from a distance.
I have a four letter word for you sir; it sounds like raft and starts with a D.
We all fell for this articles trap, the writer is obviously seeking attention and playing the devils advocate. Very poor in my opinion for a person that should be reporting for AT.
Am really suprise the above letter will come from the GC we should tell it as it is the days are closer than we think …Jesus is coming
I think the apology was made to prevent all legal actions.
If that is the hidden reason, then it’s in order.
God help us.
In light of some comments made in response of this opinion piece, I thought that it might be helpful to remind some of the new readers of the long-standing guidelines for opinion items published in Adventist Today or posted on the Adventist Today website at Atoday.org.
First of all, all opinion pieces in Adventist Today or posted on the Adventist Today web site represent only the views of the individuals writing them. They do not represent the views of the Adventist Today Foundation—neither the magazine nor the web site. Adventist Today takes no position on any point of view–except for the need in the Adventist denomination for independent, good journalism. Opinion pieces are not—repeat not—news. Adventist Today clearly separates news and opinion.
Second, Adventist Today is not “owned” by any individual. It is a non-profit California corporation. The policies that it follows are set into place by a Board of Directors. All of members of the Board of Directors are members in good and regular standing of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as is the writer of this particular opinion piece.
Third, the proposed letter from the president of the General Conference to Pope Frances is a proposed letter—repeat, a proposed letter. It makes no representation that was composed by the current president of the General Conference. (We can always hope.).
Even if the letter is only opinion, it has already spread over the whole internet that ‘Ted Wilson is apologising and the SDA church is reconciling with the Roman Catholic church.’
Even if the apology is for legal reasons, it is completely disgusting to start it with the title ‘His Holiness’. Would you call Kanye West, ‘Jesus’, just because he is famous and powerful and wanted you to call him that? Even though you know it is a lie?
If the article was indeed meant as satire, it should have been clearly marked as such, but even so the author should pay attention to the advice of Solomon (see below):
Proverbs 26:18-20 (NIV)
18 Like a maniac shooting
flaming arrows of death
19 is one who deceives their neighbor
and says, “I was only joking!”
This article has done harm, and I am sorry to say it is very badly done. It seems an apology would be in order.
And shame on Adventist Today for issuing no apology and allowing this article to misrepresent the actions of the Adventist church.
A final item I neglected to mention above. The writer of this opinion piece is not a member of a Roman Catholic clerical order, the Society of Jesus, i.e. I am not a Jesuit. I am flattered that someone would even suggest that, but I regret that I am neither intelligent enough nor well informed enough in theology and philosophy to be a member of the Jesuit order. In addition, I have serious doubts about various aspects of Roman Catholic theology as I do about various aspects of classical Adventist theology. But, even more important, the Jesuits I know are extremely bright and well educated individuals. That fact alone disqualifies me from being a Jesuit. Now, I know that in the eyes of some traditional Adventists, this statement itself is evidence that I am a Jesuit. (There are some people that you just can’t help.) May I also take this opportunity to clearly state that my good friend Cliff Goldstein is not and has never been a Jesuit despite the wild and scurrilous statements posted on some web sites.
Erv,
I’ll be frank with you. At this juncture, it is less than manly in my opinion to be taking refuge behind your friendship with someone of impeccable SDA bona fides—as yours are being called into question. (For what little it may be worth, that didn’t get past me.)
You wrote this piece, so you should have taken the incoming without dropping the name of someone who’d oppose it.
psst….. Stephen……. mention of Cliff G was a continuation of the Jesuit gag someone kindly started for us.(as far as I can tell). (Yes, the Jesuit thing is actually very funny. Does anyone have ANY evidence that Jesuits have even the slightest interest in SDAs? When you grow up with a persecution complex, I suppose you have to have a persecutor. Yep, its them nasty, sneaky Jesuits again.)
Serge,
Whether or not Erv is a Jesuit is totally immaterial as far as I’m concerned. I would rather not label someone other than that which they would call themselves.
I believe he cleverly utilized and leveraged a friendship to lend credibility to his denial. Erv wrote this article and was absolutely lambasted—and had his Adventism widely questioned—for having done so; and used that friendship as a shield.
Hi Stephen…. how are the pixies in your garden today? You are obviously good at seeing things which few of us can perceive.
Firstly, I don’t see that Erv has been lambasted, period. The folks who’ve taken some exception to his article clearly did not understand it! I will not speculate as to how and why they ‘missed it,’ but they did.
Secondly, the Jesuit thing is the default position that the fearful mindset of SDAs goes to when they feel threatened, in this case, it would appear, by the proposed visit of a pope to the USA. Even your good self felt moved to write about that.
Thirdly, your interpretation of Erv’s mention of Cliff G. must be due to something between the lines that I cannot see. To me it is merely another reference to the Jesuit nonsense that pervades the febrile imaginations of GD-reading SDAs, in order to show what silliness it represents.
I mean, do people really think that a Jesuit has made it all the way to a position in the General COnference? wow, I never heard that. all the way to GenCon? things are worse than I thought. it msut be a sign…. yeah, its a sign…..better get ready….
Serge, I have written what I have written. I’ve criticized what I perceived to be the faulty premise of his proposed letter; and then for hiding behind his friendship of an Adventist. I had previously written a blog which had to do with politicians utilizing the pope’s popularity for their purposes. I had not mentioned anything about Jesuits in any of what I had written except to respond to you that it did not matter to me what Erv was; and that I would prefer to call people whatever they call themselves.
On the other hand, you seem to be pretty preoccupied with Jesuit paranoia or something to that effect. That is your issue my brother, not mine. Your attempts to ridicule such things have no relation to what I have written; and since you are corresponding to me, I find that curious.
In any case, it is heartening to see that there are apparently SDAs out there who perhaps visit this site but do not share Dr. Taylor’s outlook on Adventism. That seems to perhaps be disturbing to you. If so, that too would be your problem Serge.
mea culpa, Stephen, mea maxima culpa.
I needs must go to confession. Father Igantius will console me.
Whatever gets you through the day brother.
Ervin,
You just proved that you ARE a Jesuit. Like spies who always deny being a spy, Jesuits deny being Jesuits. Therefore, the more you deny being a Jesuit, the more it proves that you definitely ARE one! If you don’t want people to think you’re a Jesuit, you should say nothing about it (or maybe say that you are one). For example, if you deny being a spy, or deny being insane, people will assume that you are a spy or are insane. But if you clearly state: “I am a spy,” they will assume that you are joking. If you say: “I am insane,” they will also assume that you are joking, since truly insane people do not know that they are insane.
Ted Wilson should not give an apology for the book. It is the truth. The word of Christ states that a falling away would come before the coming of Christ the second time. I guess Ted Wilson has fallen away from the truth to give the papacy an apology.
Ella,this letter is not real. It’s the authors version of what he thinks should be written in the name of Ted Wilson.
Please pay attention. It only gets more serious from here on out.
Written like a true Jesuit.
It’s almost laughable to consider this anything but nonsense. This is absolute evidence of those who wonder after the beast and how others will be drawn away from God in these end times.
It’s amazing to see things happening before our eyes and yet there are still those that have no idea in which time of earth’s history we find ourselves.
It’s a shame.
That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard, Ervin.
To Think that the president of the Seventh Day Adventist Church would have anything to apologize to the Pope for is, at this point, ludicrous, and can only be topped by your poor imagination of the facts of the matter. It seems that your liberal bias of politics have corrupted your manners. You are, and never will be, anyone to be listened too in regards to the factual historical account of the church. I believe you need to keep your fantasies to yourself, because you have no idea what your talking about.
And yet one more sign of the times we are in. Ecumenism everywhere. Get ready friends to stand stiff for the Truth, the Gospel in it’s beauty and to stand for right though the heavens fall.
“The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power—all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they…” I recommend this chapter for the all. Great Controversy 606
When the National Reformers began to urge measures to restrict religious liberty, our leading men should have been alive to the situation, and should have labored earnestly to counteract these efforts. It is not in the order of God that light has been kept from our people,—the very present truth which they needed for this time. Not all our ministers who are giving the third angel’s message, really understand what constitutes that message. The National Reform movement has been regarded by some as of so little importance that they have not thought it is necessary to give much attention to it, and have even felt that in so doing they would be giving time to questions distinct from the third angel’s message. May the Lord forgive our brethren for thus interpreting the very message for this time.—Testimonies for the Church 5:715. – {ChS 162.4}
Scrolled through this conversation till my hand went sore trying to get a comment from Ervin the author of this article but got none… he needs to substantiate his claims
Erwin Taylor,
You did a great job creating this letter. Right on the money!
It’s very sad, though, that so many people didn’t get the importance of your letter as related to the Pope’s visit.
The distribution of the GC books at this time is just an act of disrespect and provocation.
What should also be of great concern is the fact that there are also so many people opposing what you said, and supporting that initiative.
No wonder many still consider us to be just a cultic movement…
I agree George, though many here take the opposite view. Even more astounding, are the numbers of detractors who ‘just didn’t get it.’ Not sure how closely they read it, but many think this is a report of an actual letter written and sent by Ted Wilson to the pope.
While it is great to see so many new folk participating on AT, it concerns me that many seem to reflect an ongoing element of fear….. fear for the presumed threat of ‘the end,’ fear for their personal ‘faith,’ fear of and for all those things which the book (Grt Contr’y) predicts. These are all signs that one has not deeply understood and received the true Gospel. The one where the believer ‘dies’ and is born anew. The one where the Bringer of the Gospel says, ‘Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.’ ‘Fear no those that destroy the body…!’ etc. What on earth can a mere pope do to anyone who truly knows the Source of his/her Life?
The real problem with books such as GC is that they seek to motivate one towards Life/God through FEAR. When the true Gospel is a message which casts out all fear. Fear of popes visiting one’s homeland, fear of bodily death, fear of faux Jesuits masquerading as Opinion piece writers in AToday.
Once more, dear friends, FEAR NOT. Nothing can go wrong! Is not your God in control? Do not ‘All things work together for good’…?
Thanks again Erv. You’ve brought a very interesting debate ALIVE! No Jesuit could have achieved this!
Serge,
Once in a while, Spectrum used to post an essay that was just a joke, but looked like legit news.
They had to stop doing it because some naive people were believing in it and reacting very negatively. As I read here as well, some people nota smart enough to catch the real,idea and the meaning of this “letter to the Pope.”
Paranoia spreads quickly, so yes, editors and authors have to be careful… LOL
To those dropping bombs on Erwin. In the ongoing
dialogues of months and years here at Atoday, the observers, both commenters and non-participants will note the occasional humorous, and or “tongue in cheek” comment (meant to be humorous), to break the pattern of mostly serious dialogue, does occur by a few of the more consistent commenters, and are noted as such by the long time observers here, and rarely bring forth such negative attacks, that have occurred here. This particular item was definitely issued for humorous content, by Erv.
There are a large number of SDAS who believe that Ted Wilson is a less than effective overall administrator. Hence a lot of comments here at Atoday in respect of him. This organ features a great variety of followers of every religious persuasion, from atheists to “born again Christians, in love with the Christ. Please lighten up and enjoy, if possible the ongoing inputs from many, less than orthodox SDA
members and former members. This program is not a part of the SDA Church. Bless each of you on your life’s journey.
Let’s understand that the letter is a social media proposal.
JESUS LOVES US AMEN.
Most of us know this and Love Erwin; but others may take this differently.
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Sometimes, even in our jesting, we may create stumbling blocks to others. It is hard to think about everyone in the picture. There is no confusion in the Spirit; only in the world through satan. Many create the Body; they can read the Scripture. The Scripture is explicit and feeds us all; without privilege of interpretation. We must take this into account in all of our actions. Those in the world may read the BIBLE and look at us; other denominations look at us and we look at us.
The biggest point is that GOD looks at us; in actions and results. We need to always remember this; from all standpoints.
This article is a disgrace. The writer is perpetuating lies in the name of “satire.” Satire is one thing; lies are another. This article is neither one! Shame on you. Why not use your time, talent, and effort to write something true and worthwhile, like Huckleberry Finn? Nobody even reads this site anymore; and all the people who write comments are a bunch of losers.
Quite right, Milly. This site, AToday……. ‘NO-ONE goes there anymore. Its too crowded!’
Long live Yogi Berra. Another great Yogi-ism: “A nickel ain’t worth a dime anymore.” The funniest Yogi-ism was when some streakers ran across the baseball field. When asked if they were male, or female, Yogi answered: “I don’t know. They had bags over their heads.”
Proverbs 26:18-20New International Version (NIV)
18 Like a maniac shooting
flaming arrows of death
19 is one who deceives their neighbor
and says, “I was only joking!”
But there was NO DECEPTION on Ervin’s part, Leesa. NO DECEPTION. He stated from the beginning exactly what he was saying and doing.
The mania comes from the response of people who are too highly tuned into anything popish, in a negative way. And from people who cannot read and understand straightforward language, because they choose to colour it with their own fevered imaginations about the end of the world etc etc.
So please, do not add to that mania by misquoting texts which do not apply. This is but a symptom of the disease which wracks the Adventist end-time imagination, and that disease is FEAR. Learn the true Gospel, it will remove all your fears.
Of course the reality Serge is that if fear was the problem, then that particular book would not be in print anymore from its original publisher and would certainly not be distributed by the fearful at this time.
Actually it would make more sense to surmise that those Adventists who do not approve of either the content of that book or the distribution of it (by anyone at anytime) are fearful of being politically incorrect or something.
DISGRACE
This is the word, thank you! This is the word I was looking for to describe the irresponsible actions taken by Adventist groups attacking the Pope. And the Church remains just… quiet??
Same like Trump on Friday, when he refused to correct that guy in the crowd accusing the POTUS of being Muslim and nit born in America. Just quiet while the unwarranted attacks are perpetrated.
I am not surprised it is happening in the political realm, but in a Church…, it’s indeed a little strange.
Yes, disgrace it is!
George,
Apparently your issue is that you consider the content of the book in question, including the Reformers’ interpretation of the prophetic symbols by which the Roman church and the papacy are identified, to be a disgrace.
If that were not the case, then you wouldn’t consider the mere bulk mailing of that book to be a disgrace, much less an attack of the pope, whenever or wherever it occurred.
You may not be an Adventist any longer (although apparently you were at some point). It is clear that the cognitive dissonance that some Adventists, including Erv, with which some Adventist have to deal, has driven many to lash out at our church for simply believing and acting upon what we have believed and taught.
What is not clear to me is how such constant cognitive dissonance can be healthy.
Correction: It is clear that the cognitive dissonance with which some Adventists including Erv have to deal has driven many of them to lash out at our church for simply believing and then acting upon what we have believed and taught.
It really is not right to do these PROPOSED letters this way, because then it gets passed all aeound the Internet that ‘Ted Wilson did this’ or ‘Ted Wilson said that’. It is being irresponsible. If you want to propose that Ted Wilson write a letter to someone and tell him what you think that he ought to say, then you ought to be sending that letter to Ted Wilson and not placing it on the Internet. The Conference does enough wrong things without us having to resort to making things up. Let#s be honest, please?
Well said!
I am not hoping that the prophecies will come true immediately, as I don’t believe we are ready, but a prophecy delayed does not mean it is out-dated as this article seems to claim. But what a fearful time it will be for those who accept the mark of the beast. I pity anyone who agrees with this article, as they are in great spiritual danger.
I wonder if the author of this article has read Charles Chiniquy’s ‘Fifty Years in the Church of Rome’? Here is a link to the book free online: http://arcticbeacon.com/books/Chiniquy-Fifty_Years_in_the_Church_of_Rome-1886-NOT-Bkmrkd.pdf
Has he listened to the Pope’s speech in which he likens himself to Joseph, who was betrayed by his traitorous brothers (the brothers being the other churches who need to come back to him), or the pope’s eager appeals for a Sunday law to ‘bring families back together’. Yes, we should assume the Pope is really a nice man who only wants our best interests, if we didn’t read the Bible!
I wonder about the motivation for publishing this article? Could it be that someone wants to know how many Adventists still take Ellen White’s prophecies seriously – perhaps testing the waters to see how much they can get away with, or who will oppose them?
Leesa,
Firstly, the greatest fulfillment of “prophecy” must be the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” in each and every believer. If we cannot see His Spirit working in our hearts, preparing us for that great day of His appearing, then what good is any prophecy? If we see others through the Bible, how does that help us individually?
Secondly, the relevance of the pope and any religious entity, together with world powers, again, as above, will not help our spiritual preparation to meet the Lord Jesus when He appears. Looking outwardly, through the Scriptures, keeps people focused on matters relating to this world and not on Jesus Christ, Who said: “I am not of this world”. The Kingdom of God is within each and every born-again believer, it has nothing to do with material things. Salvation is Spiritual and not physical, “the flesh profits nothing”.
All Christians know that the Devil uses Scripture, deceptively, to further his cause, as he did when he tempted Jesus Christ. Why would anyone consider it amazing should the Devil use his children to duplicate the fulfillment of “apparent” Bible prophecies? After all, won’t he gather the nations to battle against the Saints and the Beloved City? (Rev. 20:7-10)
As for “Ellen White and her prophecies”, what are they producing in your heart and for what purpose? Many claim her writings lead them to the Bible; and yet they keep finding themselves reading her books, only to be directed to the Bible again? Is that not a…
Cont.
Is that not a contradiction?
Good observation Daniel. The net effect of this EGW-Bible circuit is that the EGW writings set the ‘confirmational bias’ which operates when one returns to reading the Bible. This ‘bias’ then blocks/interrupts the capacity of the Holy Spirit to guide understanding of the scriptures being read. One can only ‘see’ things that they expect to see, based on the understanding previously gained from EGW.
‘Come out of her…’ could also now take on a second meaning. Do not read EGW. Her writings will only distort what one should gain by reading the Bible and the Bible only, when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Hi Serge,
Glad you agree.
By the way, thank you for your response to my question: “what relevance does the physical body, of Jesus the Christ, have in the plan of salvation for sinners?”; in the article “Mind Control”. Excellent interpretation.
Ervin, in an earlier response to the comments, you defended yourself by claiming that you are not a Jesuit. That tactic is a big fail. And a big red flag. You just proved that you ARE a Jesuit! Like spies who always deny being a spy, undercover Jesuits deny being Jesuits.
Therefore, the more you deny being a Jesuit, the more it proves that you definitely ARE one! If you don’t want people to think you’re a Jesuit, you should say nothing about it (or maybe say that you are one).
For example, if you deny being a spy, or deny being insane, people will assume that you are a spy or are insane. But if you clearly state: “I am a spy,” they will assume that you are joking. If you say: “I am insane,” they will also assume that you are joking, since truly insane people do not know that they are insane. Therefore, stop denying that you are a Jesuit.
You’re concerned that Erv is a Jesuit? That you would make such a claim speaks volumes about why the church is in trouble in many places.
Those who see Jesuits invading the church are typically far more focused on identifying evil than you are on following God and building your relationship with Him so you can be empowered to do things like bind demons with a single command and minister God’s far greater power in myriad ways. Those who are focused on exposing evil and accusing others of it quickly fall prey to it, but those who are connected to God overcome it and are victorious. God’s command to us is not to identify evil, but to overcome it in His power. When are you going to connect with that power so evil will no longer distress you?
By the way, I have a Jesuit friend who does far more charity work in the name of God in a week than many entire congregations do in a year and who has turned more unbelievers, even God-haters, into followers of God than all but a very few Adventists whom I have met.
Hi William, I didn’t say I was concerned about him being a Jesuit. I said he should stop trying to defend against false accusations.
“Therefore, the more you deny being a Jesuit, the more it proves that you definitely ARE one! If you don’t want people to think you’re a Jesuit, you should say nothing about it (or maybe say that you are one) [so they will think you’re joking].”
By the way, I have nothing against Jesuits. I am one, too!
And the whole world will wonder after the Beast.
This guy certainly is.
Jorge Mario Bergoglio / Francis, is a human, not a “beast.” He deserves to be treated with dignity and courtesy even if you don’t agree with him (except for the topic of women’s ordination, which he also opposes).
1) to propose an apology for the mailing of The Great Controversy after attaching the views you have expressed (“anti-catholic hostility”, etc, both within the proposed letter and as a prelude) is similar to the requests put to Martin Luther that he repudiate books that he had written exposing corruption and abuses of the papacy. Martin Luther wouldn’t revoke his views hostile to Catholicism and neither should we.
2) we should scatter the Great Controversy like the leaves of autumn, not apologize
3) catholicism has plans to regain its powers that were lost at the end of the 1700s. It has never ended this pursuit. When it regains these powers, it intends to revoke freedom of religion and reinstitute associated persecutions.
4) attempts to regain its powers have involved it in many wars. Just read Secret History of the Jesuits, for instance. Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were all dictators who would’ve accelerated papal power restoration.
5) Pope Gregory VIII had a medal struck to celebrate the Huguenot massacre of 1572. Not only has catholicism not revoked this, but it re-minted the medal in 1844 (examples of which can be purchased today). You can see their intention is not conciliatory.
6) Read Revelation 13:2. Clearly Catholicism has received its power, throne, and great authority not from God, but from the other party in the Great Controversy.
7) Providing Great Controversies allows people to have an historical perspective that is not available commonly.
Yes, Taylor is certainly sounding like a Jesuit, but we don’t know for sure.
It is interesting that during the second world war the English managed to decipher the code of the Germans and they new what they were planning. That is how the won the war.
In the Spiritual war the GC book is God giving us information what the enemy is planning and that is why the devil hates this book.
At the least it seams that Taylor is acting the devils advocate.
I personally do not (cannot) believe Mr. Taylor is a Jesuit because; which Jesuit will be foolish enough to place a bull’s eye target on his back by writing this article?
If Jesuits/other infiltrators are in our midst, I do not believe their aim is to make their true identity known but rather to work unobserved and undetected to confuse God’s truth with blasphemy.
I believe Mr. Taylor when he says he is not intelligent enough to be a Jesuit (this thoughtless article clearly proves it).
I’ll take a “Jesuit infiltrator” over a Shepherd’s Rod infiltrator any day. I’ve run into several Shepherds Rod who got outed in my local church, and I can assure you, they are scary folks, sort of like David Koresh. I’ve never met a scary or mean Jesuit.
Harry,
I used to be afraid of Jesuits, Shepherd’s Rod, etc. Then I discovered the awesome power of God and His many promises to guide and empower us. I’ve met a few Shepherd’s Rod folks over the years and when they discovered I would actually sit-down with them and compare scripture with them instead of just swallowing their ideas it wasn’t long before they decided to take their arguments elsewhere. I remember meeting one such person years later and learned that their faith in God had completely collapsed after their faith was tested and the doctrines they had embraced proved to be powerless deceptions. As a result they no longer believed in God.
As for Jesuits, I grew-up in the church and in the four decades of my adult life nobody’s been able to show me one because they existed only in the fantasies of people who were so focused on watching for end-time events to be fulfilled in a specific way that they were doing nothing to share the Gospel and growing the Kingdom of God.
William, your comment makes sense except one point: you’ve never seen a Jesuit. What? They’re everywhere! There is literally a Jesuit under every rock, along with the Communists. As for Shepherd’s Rod, they’re a stealthy bunch. It’s hard to recognize them except when they start passing out leaflets about a “slaying” in Ezekiel 9. But I agree with Harry: I’d rather deal with those invisible Jesuits hiding under the rocks.
The Bible calls the pop, The man of sin.
That is the Antichrist. Which holiness has he got to be called ‘your holiness’?
There should an effort to print more and take to the door of Vatican. There should be no apology whatsoever!
Shalom
Folks, calm down. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not “the beast” or “the devil.” He is a regular human being–quite a humble one, by all accounts–who worked as a chemistry technician and nightclub bouncer before entering the seminary. After matriculating in the seminary, he had a crush on a girl and briefly doubted about continuing the religious career. He is just a regular guy.
He might be the leader of the Catholic Church, but throughout his public life, Jorge / Francis has been noted for his humility, his concern for the poor, and his commitment to interfaith dialogue. And the funny thing is, the same people who condemn Jorge, are also the ones who believe just like he does about women’s ordination.
The Catholic Church has made some serious mistakes in the past, but Jorge / Francis is not the beast. Give him a break, and show him some respect, like you would show to other religious leaders such as the Dali Lama. Showing a leader courtesy does not mean that you agree with them; it just means that you are a courteous, Christ-like person.
From my point of view the Adventist view of the Catholic Church is about as funny as it gets. Like one of those horror movies that satirizes that the genres of horror movies with the intent of having a good laugh, the Adventist church has painted zombie faces on a harmless creature (Catholicism) and proclaimed it the biggest secret death-threat-to-SDAs-and-soon-to-be-revealed-end-to-humanity, but without the intent having a good laugh.
The caterwauling of the true believers revealed by the explosion of comments on this site is evidence of the grip myth maintains on a large body of Adventists, most of whom would likely vehemently deny adherence to mythical thinking.
1. Catholicism has never harmed Adventism in any way
2. The Pope is not now, has never been, in any way, a threat to Adventists
3. The Catholic church has no perceivable interest in ruling the world, no power to do so if it did
4. The Great Controversy scenario of heavenly war with the Papacy being the earthly enactment is only a video game of the mind
5. Not one Adventist end time prediction has happened, each has retreated to the copout of “soon”
6. A number of Christian doctrines Adventists support are “Catholic” by nature of their developed history (Trinity, i.e.)
7. There is not presently any evidence of Sunday enforcement interest in Catholicism anywhere
8. Most US Catholic churches conduct Saturday afternoon Masses
Time for a good laugh, a sigh of relief!
There is indeed ample evidence that Catholicism fought Adventism stringently back in the 1920s through the 1960s. At Vatican II, however, the Roman church determined that fighting the extreme Protestantism of the Adventist insurgent denomination was counterproductive. If ecumenism is a gross departure from sectarian duty, the Roman church is by all means guilty. The Roman church, after 1962, publicly praised Adventism for its abstinence from liquor, its keeping of the Sabbath holy day, for its study of the Bible, for its medical ministry, to name a few plaudits.
It was a new day, and it was not a moral change of heart, but a strategic one. The Roman church had been in the doldrums for several centuries, losing time and time again to the changes brought on by modernization and democratization. It came to the point, under John XXIII that the Vatican believed it was in a solid enough position that it would gain more through goodwill than denunciation and persecution.
In most Adventist centers, the SDA denomination accepted this truce. Yes, the book Great Controversy continued to be circulated widely and well, but it ceased to be distributed in a provocative manner. Adventist sermons (as did mine) sought to teach love for Christ, rather than hate for Catholics. The results have been positive, especially for Adventism; those Adventists who continue to live in a pre-Vatican II often reap grave disappointment; the gentle ways of Christ always prevail. Always.
Early Adventism went from the basement of disappointment and despair at its miserable outset to a self-proclaimed penthouse of importance as Gods director for the end-of-world world events based on a manufactured scenario of a heavenly battle with an earthly component. It was a clever game. But it had a serious flaw. No, not with the imaginary war. Video games are awash with this type of mental creation. But the other, the prophetic prediction, disaster. Every prophecy of prediction the Adventists manufactured from Scripture have absolutely, totally, completely failed, been wrong.
I keep wondering, why does a significant body of Adventist hang onto a proposition that has so totally failed to come to pass, cannot occur, when the most basic analysis negates any support
If the scenario had been correct, prophecies rightly divined, the war in heaven was an accurate description, the Papacy was an active participant in an end event, the Sabbath was the sword of its persecution, Adventists had fled to “rocks and mountains.” the world was “wondering after the beast and its image,” its mark was visible everywhere, Sunday laws were the law of the land, the pope was king, I wouldn’t be writing this, Christ would have, or would be soon, returning.
Smile! Christ promoted a new commandment. “Love one another as I have loved you.” Doesn’t that include the pope and his followers?
The horror scenario morphed into joke from the first act. Conspiracy theory caput.
Bugs, as a former salesman, let me offer you a deal. If I show you how a prediction in The Great Controversy that has in fact been fulfilled and/or is currently in process, would you admit to being mistaken about, say point #5?
That is a Yes or No proposition.
Of course the other question I have for you and the esteemed Dr. Taylor would be is it possible to ever show you anything that would disprove any of your points or any of your biases against eschatological prophecy?
That is a Yes or No question as well.
Let me ask you one more question Bugs, do you believe that Blue Laws—antiquated or anachronistic though they may be, or as sporadically enforced as they may be—represent an acknowledgment and a mandate of Sunday observance by the state?
That too is a Yes or No question. (I hope you don’t consider these to be trick questions…because they just may be.)
Correction: If I can show how a prediction in The Great Controversy has in fact been fulfilled and/or is currently in process, would you admit to being mistaken about say, point #5?
Perhaps most Adventists thoroughly believe that prophecy never, never fails; but when it may appear to fail through delay or other technicality, we often blame one another for our prophetic malfunctions.
Recently I gathered from a homesick-for-heaven saint that if we would only get rid of the GC logo, it would be a giant step forward in extricating the Church from general apostasy and moving it into the Gulf Steam of prophetic fulfillment. Other worthy scapegoats for the Lord’s delay, include:
acceptance of contemporary-style music;
acceptance of the non-Andreassen position on the nature of Christ;
questioning the infallibility of Sister White’s writings;
moving strongly into the arena of the social gospel;
treating other denominations and their leadership with kindness and dignity (ecumenism);
use of questionable forms of prayer and meditation;
failure to work harder in personal and public evangelism;
too much association with secular culture (the world);
selfishness with our time and money;
allowing the study of the theory of evolution, etc.
This is quite a list, and there are many, many other culprits at hand to blame for the non-fulfillment of prophecy. Sad that this formula of blame brings almost unendurable stress, especially to the young and those just beginning their walk with the Lord within the Adventist context.
Please don’t be an instrument to confuse young people. Great controversy is what’s going on here. Great controversy written by EGW inspired by God is blessed by God to enlighten our minds to the hidden agenda of the enemy, Satan. He will use everything to mislead people. Hopefully we’re not that one instrument to be used in Satan’s scheme. If you’re blinded and misguided please pray more asking the Holy Spirit to help you see the light. I’m still learning about my relationship with Christ and praying that God’s people will all be saved and no one will be lost.
Help us all Lord for we are in need of your saving grace even the pope needs to read the great controversy for him to see that God loves him and wanting to save him.
Pat, I am suggesting the Great Controversy is very confusing because it doesn’t represent the truth. Reading it won’t help the pope or young people. “Do unto others. . .” the Golden rule, loving each other according to the new commandment, experiencing the God of love is far more winsome and productive. Christ’s teachings don’t “mislead” people. Manufactured teaching do. I’m not suggesting you surrender your beliefs. Only that yours have no general application for others. The wholesale distribution of Great Controversy has not and isn’t producing a flood of seekers to the church, not even a few as best as I can ascertain.
Adventism has the prospect of a wonderful future. But it can’t be realized in the myth of the Great Controversy.
Dr. Boshell’s eight points are valid and well articulated. Just one small caveat. It appears that when any group of humans-however the common feature or “glue” that brings and holds them together–by design or accident, acquire the ability to control by physical force other humans, the temptation of the “dark side of the force” can rarely be resisted. It does not matter where in human history we focus–the European Middle Ages when Catholics in general or Protestants in Geneva found themselves in such a position–it appears that we it is almost impossible to resist the opportunity to exercise the power to control. In both of these cases, the context of their exercise of power was a belief that they were on God’s side and were carrying out His will. Sad.
Mt. Taylor,
I have to give you credit for showing up. I called you out earlier for your silence, and you broke it.
I do not inted to change your thoughts. I am glad, however, that you have appeard to (hopefully/possibly) read the hundreds of comments and the emotions behind you elicited as a result of your article.
You can’t possible care less about other’s peoples responses (as I am certain you believe we are all responsible for our own emotions and more than likely you do not accept responsibility for what you have premeditatedly instigated); nevertheless, I am glad to see you showing up.
That is all I wanted.
Thanks
The Eighteenth Century general Catholic phobia had some legitimate roots, Erv. Power potentially corrupts, given the right circumstances. But the GC extrapolation wasn’t validated, obviously. Oh, thanks for the honorary Doctorate. Mdiv is my claim to scholastic achievement!
Seriously, this is the most retarded editorial I have ever read by AT. I like reading some things from here, but this is really garbage. This is beyond innopropriate!
Disagreeing with Dr. Taylor is one of my treasured pursuits in life; I would not enjoy doing so, were his writings “retarded.”
Even as Samuel Adams and Tom Payne were agitators in American revolutionary lore, so Dr. Taylor is an agitator (granted), but his thinking still moves at a pace well above the ordinary Adventist’s posted speed limit. We may issue him a ticket for excessive speed and passing many fellow travelers on the right, but he will never be found in the slow lane holding up thought traffic. “Retarded” somehow seems less than a tailor-made characterization of good friend Erv.
Well said Ed. Erv has got to be chuckling as he reads through all of these overhyped agitated responses. He might as well have walked into a Tea Party meeting and announced that Obama is not a Muslim and was born in the USA. He could have expected about the same level of intelligent response.
This proposed apology letter has come at the exact right time to confirm my decision not to renew my subscription to AT. Apologize for telling the truth? Really? We, at our church, are currently giving out the Great Controversy door to door. Next are you going to propose that we apologize for being Adventist? Perhaps you’d like to join the Catholic Church?
Apologizing for being Adventist isn’t a bad idea if you think the Great Controversy represents the crux of Christian belief. You are happily, blindly, ensconced in the SDA soundproof chamber that has no effect on the world, nothing to offer, no Christian advantage, where you proclaim only to yourselves, “see how right we are” and the world doesn’t give a darn and never will. You aren’t heard anywhere except in your satellite and your free books end in the trash where they belong, and where you really know they will. Motor on, farewell, off to oblivion!
Mr. Bugs, what the majority does not give a darn about is your misguided and inaccurate opinion (tallying the tenor of the comments made about this article proves that your opinion does not hold sway).
The fact that these opinions are being written in the AT website, the hime site where the article was written, and that the majority of these opinions present a dissenting opinion rebutting what the author off this piece and the vast majority of AT collaborators have to say is quite telling.
Thankfully, all the SDA things which you think belong in the garbage have been, are and will continue to be, whether you like it or not (the GC and its mass distribution being one of them).
I welcome being shown where I am factually wrong. That’s all. It can’t be done. That’s the problem.
Likewise, Mr. Bugs
I see, or so it seems—and please correct me if I’m mistaken—that you have taken me up on my offer; but with the caveat that (and in answer to my second question) it is not possible to ever show you anything that would disprove any of your points or any of your biases against eschatological prophecy. So you are saying that you would like to shown that you are wrong if indeed you are—but that you will not accept the possibility that you are wrong (so what’s the point?).
This is confirmation bias if ever there was any such thing; or in actuality, denial bias. (It is in fact very similar, if not identical, to what I have acknowledged myself with regard to Creationism.) There is no information that will allow you to accept the authenticity or veracity of Adventist eschatology, because you reject all of the premises upon which it rests.
So that if anyone was to show you that the rise of religious-political movements and lobbies in the United States, wherein such entities are organized to influence secular levers of power and civil legislation, and to lower if not destroy the proverbial wall of separation between church and state on the basis (and for the stated reason) that the moral decline in our nation demands that the people of God take dominion over civil institutions in order to save this nation from moral, economic ruin and natural disaster and devastation (via God’s wrath and subsequent removal of His protection), was all predicted in The Great Controversy to one day take place; you would reject it out of hand and certainly reject that anything like that has even already taken place.
We know you would reject it, because you’ve said that it is impossible to prove you wrong.
Now at this point is when you generally retreat to some attempted humorous (ehrr…silly) rabbit hole; which is your prerogative.
Dear Greg,
I am receiving the online version of AT, not because I value the content, but I am using it to prove how anti Christ and anti the truth of SDA and how anti the biblical truth these people behind this magazine are. I use topics like this to proof it, and also to proof that E.G. White writings are right, and the men and maybe women behind this AT, are those people who are calling themselves Seventh day Adventist, but in fact they are not. As I know there are Jesuïts in the SDA church, doing the work for the Papacy. The proposed letter starts with ” Your holiness” why should an Adventist call the pope Holiness, this sounds like a Catholic adressing his pope. Why not use the term, holy father? We know that holiness in the bible means something different from what the people are calling the pope. AT is a sick making magazine… but it confirms the time we live in.. The falling away starts in the house of God.
Amen!
Same reason I continue reading AT articles. In their majority, they are Truth’s anti-thesis and come in very handy when teaching an appologetics class. They serve show the students what other trains of thought are out there.
Some AT articles concerning Creation came in super handy when going over that subject in class. I was able to show the students the current anti-thesis to Biblical creation. AT opinion articles surely have their use.
Another thought: would it ever occur to any of us to suggest to Israel’s Prime Minister to issue an apology to the leaders of current Nazi movements, and to German leaders – and on behalf of Israelis, to boot – because certain Jewish authors have written accurate accounts of the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany?
The GC has not been disproven. For all those who are comenting on the GC’s alleged inaccuracies/irrelevancy, not one of them have produced tangible and irrefutable proof to demonstrate why the GC has no bearing on today’s world. They would have to disprove the books of Daniel, Ezra, Isaiah, and many others in order to back up their claim.
Bro. Ervin, shame on you. So much wasted time.
I agree. This article is a disgrace. Ervin is perpetrating lies in the name of “satire.” Satire is one thing; lies are another. This article is neither one! Shame on Ervin. If only he would devote his time, talent, and effort to writing something true and worthwhile, like Huckleberry Finn. Nobody even reads this site anymore; and all the dozens of people who write comments are a bunch of losers.
Judy, Judy, Judy!!! Larry, Larry, Larry. Brother you are shaking up the troops. i know without a doubt, you have the LOVE of Christ Jesus in your heart, i know it. Most Christians are solid in the faith and won’t be shook up by your exclusive concept of Love’s origin. Today i wish to refresh your memory of a couple of your statements relative to the Papacy’s record of murderous attacks on Christians. 1. The catacombs in the area of Rome are full of the bones of Christian victims, of fun & frolic of the arena with wild cats. 2. The coercion of its members of the fearful consequence of denying the Church’s authority all thru its history. 3. The annihilation of countless numbers of Huguenots, and Walden’es (in France, Italy,and the Alps)
Burning at the stake in France and Spain. 4. The blood of countless victims with Papal permission, cry out for God to make things right, and resurrect their souls. The Jesuits have been the whipping boys of Catholicism down thru the ages, and take their orders from the so called “BLACK
Jesuit General Staff. They have always had as their prime theme, subjection of the masses, by deception, by infiltration, by murder. Now, here in 2015, they for the first time have snagged the “GOLDING RING” of authority, the Papal Throne. They haven’t changed their goal. In a global conspiracy with the Crowned heads of Europe, the Elite Money Changers, and the United Nations, with “Global Warming” the Kick off, it is beginning. “HISTORY”.
Earl, Earl, Earl! Come let us reason together. Your present life isn’t tainted by your family history of being slave owners, bank robbers, illegal aliens, thugs, fascists, or murders? Right? Neither is the present Catholic Church. As to conspiracy theories, the Papal one is a piker compared to much more sinister ones available for the picking. Jesus proclaimed the obvious about the birds. They don’t worry. I opt for the bird view of conspiracy possibilities. They don’t worry me.
Could one or all come true? Maybe. Could my harboring of or cogitation of them prevent, modify or stall them? Chirp chirp! I’m concentrating on loving you. You are my neighbor, you know!
Calm down, folks. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not “the beast” or “the devil.” He is a regular human being–quite a humble one, by all accounts–who worked as a chemistry technician and nightclub bouncer before entering the seminary. After matriculating in the seminary, he had a crush on a girl and briefly doubted whether he should discontinue his religious career. He is just a regular guy.
He might be the leader of the Catholic Church, but throughout his public life, Jorge / Francis has been noted for his humility, his concern for the poor, and his commitment to interfaith dialogue. And the funny thing is, the same people who condemn Jorge, are also the ones who believe just like he does about women’s ordination.
The Catholic Church has made some serious mistakes in the past, but Jorge / Francis is not the beast. Give him a break, and show him some respect, like you would show to other religious leaders such as the Dali Lama. Showing a leader courtesy does not mean that you agree with them; it just means that you are a courteous, Christ-like person.
Thank you for a voice of reason.
This isn’t about the regular guy, Mr. Bergoglio, Henry. If he came to the U.S. as Mr. Bergoglio, regular guy, no one except those checking his passport would care; and no proposed letter of apology to him would have ever been authored, much less discussed.
That said Mr. Bergoglio seems to be a nice guy. But it isn’t about that either, is it?
People keep going on about “the truth.” “The truth” varies from one person to the next and cannot be defined absolutely. One even has to look at the Bible with critical eyes and realize that it was written thousands of years ago in societies very different than today. Imagine if this work was written today to today’s audience and today’s people. Imagine if Jesus came today instead of over 2000 years ago. What groups would he be hanging out with? In his time tax collectors and prostitutes were some of his friends. That was heretical in the eyes of the church of that time but changed those who he came into contact with. Imagine if he came now and hung out with pimps and homosexuals. Would we accept him now? People in the church pick and choose which Levitical laws to accept or reject due to their archaic nature. But how does one do that? Either they are enforceable as a whole or one must question them all. People who believe that “truth” is an absolute don’t think, don’t consider the time and society when things were written. Even E.G.White’s works are dated and a product of a time in which they were conceived and the history of many other so called visionaries of her time. God gave us free will and a mind to think. If we deny these things, we are not who we were meant to be. Being a sheep is not all it’s cracked up to be.
If “truth” is relative then, by definition, it is not Truth. You must be referring to something else, certainly not to Truth (especially Biblical Truth). Truth (especially the Gospel of Jesus Christ as well as Biblical Prophecies) is universal. And it is also Absolute.
You always dig deep, Orion. I like that.
How about this:
Truth is only truth when it is relative.
For Truth to be universal, it must always be relative.
For Truth to be absolute, it can only be relative.
Or, in a sentence: We don’t adapt to Truth, Truth adapts to us.
Or, When we adapt to Truth, we distort Truth.
Pretty interesting; I almost agree.
Being that Jesus Christ is irrelevant to most nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples, and being that Christ commanded His followers to make disciples (bring others in to follow Him and His Gospel), then what, for instance, should I make of Acts 4:12?
If someone wants the Gift of Salvation, shouldn’t they have to adapt to Him (Christ, the Truth) Who is the only One Who can grant such a priceless gift? (Being that He is the only religious entity in the history of mankind to die so that we may live).
Truth is Absolute ONLY in the sense that Christ is absolute. Truth is not an idea. It is not a doctrine (though a doctrine can approximate something true). Truth CANNOT be written down. That would only be more approximation. Truth can only be known, directly. Truth is absolute in this one sense only: I AM TRUTH. To the extent, (and only to that extent), that one KNOWS He who IS Truth, is the extent to which one knows Truth. ‘THis is Life eternal that they might KNOW ME.’ As such, it is relative, ie, it depends entirely on the degree to which one has cultivated this relationship of knowing Him.
Orion: “Being that He is the only religious entity in the history of mankind to die so that we may live.”
Not so. Most of the gods of the ‘mystery religions’ were ‘dying and rising’ gods, who gave life to their adherents. Also, Osiris was murdered by the ‘beast’ and raised to life by Isis. These things are well documented in books such as ‘THe Pagan Christ,’ don’t recall author. A similar book by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, title forgotten. THey also record a lot of material written by the early church fathers who recognised that the story of Jesus very closely resembled that to the mystery religions’ dying/rising gods. To the extent that some of them said that the mystery religions were an attempt by the devil to ‘pre-empt’ the life and work of Christ, hundreds of years before He came.
Serge, did any of those other “gods” make the claim found in Acts 4:12?
I’ve never read of any other mythological “god” who was vilified and died naked, humiliated so that “whosoever believes in” that “god” “would not perish but have everlasting life”… That is news to me. I do not recall the death of those other “gods” being humiliating and intended to save ALL humankind, but I can always learn something new.
Did the adherents to Osiris/Isis (interesting names) adapt to the “truth” taught by those Gods (e.i.: sacrificed how those “gods” wanted, worshipped how those “gods” wanted, etc.); or did those adherents do their own thing, and the “truth” had to adapt to them?
That is my original question, which is still unanswered.
Bullseye, Jean! All religious discourse based on Scripture is based on “Pick and Choose.” For a few exceptions the authors of the books didn’t know each other, lived in different places, times and even epochs, had their own agendas without a common one. “Truth” is an opinion. That’s all it can be. Every believer has a version. Every denomination has a version. Agreements are generalities, truces for the appearance of peace. The Scripture is a fantastic mountain of ore for mining valuable gems, but it wasn’t, couldn’t have been, spoken as the “Word of God.” Pick and choose.
As to the metaphor of the sheep, I see being a sheep differently as being all it is cracked up to be in that there is no judgment. The Shepherd likes us this way. His radar never loses us so we are never “lost.” And he never asks us to quit being what we are. Only that we exercise love to the other sheep and treat them like we want for ourselves. And further, he claims, you do that and you will know God.
an apology letter sent or not, leaders and members disfellowshipped or not would gain neither you nor i heaven. There are more important things to work on than arguing.
Let just focus on living solely on the principles of God and leading others to Him.
whoever want to cuase confussion can continue to do so. At the right time, You will see your achievements (eternal life or death).
Matt,
If Eternal Life depends on our personal achievement, we are doomed and to believe this is to deny the meaning of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus it seems.
Why do some people become so belligerent when one writes an essay like this?
Is it because truth hurts?
George, perhaps the “truth” is too painful. Myth is beguiling.
The proposed letter doesn’t exactly represent the truth George; although I almost hate to be the one to break it you.
Stephen, I will bring you some towels for when you come out of the river, you know, the big river in Egypt – “The Nile”…
George,
Would you care to elaborate just a little about what it is that I am in ‘de-Nile’ (denial) about with reference to the “truth” as you have referred to it in Erv’s proposed letter?
George,
Step back and chill out for a minute. Think about it, if for instance on a liberal Roman Catholic website, one of its writers or founders wrote a proposed letter from the pope to Protestant Christians apologizing for some unnamed Catholic order’s (perhaps even the order of which said hypothetical pope was a member) rhetoric against other non-Catholic Christians; wouldn’t you expect that other Catholics, particularly those of the hypothetical order from which the pope had come, would be very perturbed, and express their displeasure in no uncertain terms?
Would you consider Catholicism “a very belligerent religion” in that instance? Besides, we wouldn’t want to compare the histories of intolerance between the two, would we?
However, as I think about it, it is possible that the self-loathing concentration levels may be on a par. Some Adventists really hate Adventism (something that I will never understand psychologically).
Methinks Erv has touched a nerve here from the frenzy of responses. Personally I think it was a well written letter. When are old school SDAs going to quit trying to scare people into their tribe membership? Maybe if you quit beating people over the head with threats of damnation and eternal death along with conspiracy theories it would be easier to show God’s love?
Well said, Mark.
One of the major problems in our Church is the extreme dependency on EGW. If one cloud moves in the sky some people run to read her “boox,” because they are unable to “think out of the boox.” They want to find in her writings an explanation for every single thing happening around them. The goal is, of course, to prove that she had predicted such. Kind of an obsessive behavior indeed.
I personally like Pope Francis, just as I personally like Barack Obama (and no doubt I would like President Carson). But I can disguise the men from the institutions. I wonder if those arguing on both ‘sides’ of this debate can?
The RC is a problematic institution to say the least. I just recall famous humanitarian lawyer Geoffrey Roberts QC, who only wrote a few years ago the book, ‘The Case Against the Pope’, arguing the then Pope Benedict and many Catholic Cardinals should be tried before the International Criminal Court. For all the good Francis has done, the RC system is deeply flawed. In that sense, one might even say Francis is the most anti-Papal figure alive today! But that doesn’t excuse the Papacy.
That’s a very big call Steve. DO you mean you personally know/are aquainted with/spend time with/your mate Jorge? Similarly Obama? No, didn’t think so. So, all you know about them is what you have gleaned from media of various sorts. Now its possible that what you have seen, so far, appeals to you. But that hardly can be relied on to form much more than an opinion that you are comfortable with the limited knowledge you have of these men. Given that they are willing to participate as figureheads of institutions which give you some pause, of which to question the virtue, then surely, as a minimum, you must also question those who choose to stand as heads of those questionable institutions? Geoffrey Robertson has a very strong case. He is an expert in this kind of law, as you point out. Francis is equally tarred with that very black brush, appearances aside.
Anybody who has read Erv’s work over the past few years knows this man is not remotely an Adventist nor does he respect any aspect of the church. But give him credit for the purpose of this insane letter – it evoked the largest response of any AT article I’ve ever seen, thus his mission accomplished. However, did anyone think there were so many SDA readers of AT who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
Why do you attack the writer personally instead of commenting on the content of the letter? These “ad hominem” attacks really lack class.
I may be mistaken, but my impression is that one of the main motivators for writing this letter was the fact that Adventists have always been combative toward the RCC. It’s like a serious obsession, a need to constantly poke others instead of leaving them alone.
And now sending to the population, where he (the Pope) is going to meet part of his congregation, all those “boox” that contain explicit attacks against his Church? Is that really necessary? Why don’t some people just mind their own business and stop this nonsense?
I only read through the first 25 posts and I have torn my robe in the utmost disgust for the filth proposed by Mr. Taylor. Thank you faithful remnant brothers and sisters for damning him to hell and the apostacy. God must be thankful for your vigilance for truth and assistance in judgement. He should not only be fired from his official position in the church and excommunicated, but he should be burned at the stake with the other heritics from Adventist Today! No! Better yet, he should be tied to an ant hill of hell fire ants and left in the blazing S California sun until torn apart by Catholic inquisitors and mad squirrels!!
OOOOOOOOHHHHHH Yeeeeeeeeeesssss Brother J Faz (would that be SJ Faz by any chance?)…… but let that be just the beginning. Burning at the stake is too good for him! I suggest you submit him to the unimaginable horrors, the indescribable tortures, the ‘killing-is-too-good-for-him’ ‘this will teach him a lesson’ agonies of….. the….. comfyyy chaaaaaaaaaaiiiiirrrrrrrr!!!
Mwohahahahahahaaaaaa!
(Yes, derivative humour is second class I know but Bro Faz set it up so well. For a brief moment I almost thought he wasn’t joking)
Your reaction was one of the best demonstrations of respect for others that I have ever seen…
So, just because Erv “dares” to say something that is not what is politically correct in the Church he deserves all that pile of junk that you threw on him? Who abolished everyone’s right to express their thoughts and feelings?
Spiritual arrogance is one of the worst things among Christians.
Forget the Pope. The king is Elvis Presley, and he is still alive! He is 80 years old now, and still rocking around the clock. He went into hiding in 1979, when he became a secret agent for the DEA. Currently he is a secret agent for Amazing Facts and is hiding on a UFO until the controversy on WO is resolved.
I heard an equally plausible account of Elvis’ current circumstances. He is alive and well, confined to Area 51, where his role is to keep the Aliens happy. They particularly like ‘Dont’ step on my blue suede shoes..’ And so long as he sings this twice a day, they agree not to vaporise planet earth. Thanks Elvis.
The Adventist church has been studying the Women’s Ordination issue since 1881, and it’s still not resolved 134 years later, in 2015. If he’s waiting for the WO issue to be resolved, poor Elvis could be up there on that UFO till he’s 180 or 200. I hope he’s eating lots of veggies and taking vitamins.
J Faz, you raise satire to an entirely new level! Awesome!
Like all of us, Francis is a product of his past. That past is rooted in Argentina, where some of his countrymen decry the “savage capitalism” they’ve experienced at the hands of U.S. mining and agricultural companies. The pope is making the first U.S. visit of his 78 years; he can say as much or as little as he pleases about Latin America’s experience with the world’s most muscular capitalist economy.
Some of the pope’s criticisms are warranted. As Adventist Christians, we should be concerned about reversing environmental perils, creating economic opportunities for the poor, and enforcing legal and ethical restrictions on global companies. By riveting attention on economic exploitation, a man renowned as the pontiff of the poor has wildly succeeded. But in the 30 months of his papacy, Francis hasn’t focused on a companion truth: When it functions legally and ethically, capitalism does more to uplift people from even severe poverty than has any government policy, economic ideology, or redistribution of wealth.
What this Pope doesn’t understand, though, is the steady rise in living, health and education standards for poor Americans. Now comes Pope Francis’ determination to help people by the hundreds of millions escape destitution. Excellent. Perhaps during his visit he’ll discuss how market economies already have let other hundreds of millions prosper, and bless capitalism for its saving grace.
Capitalism is indeed a nice system, but we have to be extremely careful with a very dangerous version of capitalism, which I refer to as “vulture capitalism.”
This is when a little group in the country (like 1%, or so) control all the capital and starts exploiting the working population. Little by little the middle class is eliminated and becomes part of the poor – working hard for the increased enrichment of the already wealthy 1%.
Can anyone show one, just one difference between Communism and Vulture Capitalism????
One difference? Those living under capitalism believe they are ‘free.’
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” (cf Winston Churchill)
We would be shabby “capitalist Christians” if we didn’t cite the late University of Chicago economist Milton Friedman’s unequivocal summary of evidence linking market freedoms to rising prosperity: “The only cases in which the masses have escaped (grinding poverty), the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worse off, worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that.”
On economic policy and distribution of wealth there is much to disagree with this pontiff. On other matters Pope Francis’s off the cuff remarks demonstrate a flair for the unexpected populism. When you examine actual policy on a host of issues and doctrines he remains a Jesuit and a very conservative Pope who has extraordinary political skills. The reason so many fear him is because of how “likeable” he appears to be.
That said, proponents of free-market capitalism can’t boast that its effects are net positive without admitting it also sows insecurity and destroys old orders. Many people fear dynamic economies, knowing some of them will suffer harsh consequences. Which is paradoxical: Capitalism thrives on voluntary, not violent, acts, with people creating goods and services that other people want to buy. The Pope and the current U.S. president like “redistribution of wealth”
the rest of us are waiting for heaven for it to be implemented.
Paul Krugman is one of the most easily understood economist when writing for the average reader. Another person, although he may not be an economist, is Robert Reich who speak for the average citizen.
As an aside, the latest political poll shows that Republican voters rate Bernie Sanders by the same percentage as Trump.
Ervin Taylor, you are definitely one of satans workers, a jesuit for sure. Take your evil words and your evil self back to the Vatican where you belong.
This church was founded on the truth, and that has not changed. The relations between the SDA church and the vatican should never be a consideration. If you love the pope so much, then you are not of God.
He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.
Hmm I wonder if the pope is our neighbor. Did not Jesus command us to love our neighbor as the second greatest commandment? Brother, your hatred condemns you more than the sins of the pope…
“And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and ALL the world wondered after the beast.”
Revelation 13:3 KJVA
John tells us that ALL the world wondered. SDA’s are not excluded.
Bright lights are going to go out!
I think this letter has legal issues because Ted Wilson is implicated. His name is besmirched. Many of you who commented think Ted wrote the letter. I say shame on you to suggest we bow to the pope, address him as Holiness and apologize for exposing the RC church for what it is.
What kind of a letter do you suggest Ted writes when the dragon gives his power to the beast?
Talk about “sleeping with the enemy”. The author of this letter not only suggests treason before our Saviour, but also adultery. Shame Shame Shame!
It would be hard to believe that anyone read this letter thinking that it was real. And if someone did, well… it reveals a lot about that person’s cognitive ability… Therefore, I doubt that, if asked, anyone will ever admit to being fooled so easily…
It is so sad that so many people have not been able to capture the real meaning of this so called “letter.”
Ervin Taylor,
I hope you don’t get too disappointed and discouraged with some of the unkind, disrespectful, and aggressive comments directed at you because of your “letter.”
Adventism has been a very belligerent religion, thought disguised under a blanket of sanctity to hide its negative side. The anger many SDAs express toward the RCC is understandable, since the founder of the Church wrote so much fueling rage and hatred against the RCC. Some people appear to enjoy this constant bickering.
Because you had the guts to write such a realistic and appropriate letter, I know you must be a very strong person, and will not be intimidated by people who, in a moment of unfortunate weakness, even called you a worker of Satan. This is outrageous, a disgrace in a free society. Stay strong!!!
One often finds what one looks for in life, and in people. One seldom finds what one does not look for, in life and in people.
Adventism is neither more nor less belligerent than any other collection of millions of people from all over the world.
In my work I have traveled over over the world. I have worshiped as an unannounced stranger with Adventists on almost every continent. Only in a very few cases have I experienced belligerence or hostility in these churches. Only in a very few cases have I encountered belligerence and hostility from the average person on the streets, where I have also walked as an unannounced stranger.
I encounter far more belligerence and animosity among the comments on Atoday. This does not seem to be strongly correlated with their points of view. Is there something about the blogosphere that brings out the worst in people? Are angry people more motivated to comment online?
Jim,
“Are angry people more motivated to comment online?”
Yes. Because they can do it hiding behind either a pseudonym or being faceless.
It should be noted that my referrence to belligerence was tied to the attitude developed in Adventism regarding the RCC. It’s in the red “boox,” it’s on the pulpits, it’s in the SS quarterly, it’s in the members’ consciousness. It is, unfortunately, part of the SDA culture.
The more Ervin denies being a Jesuit, the more he proves that he IS one. People with dementia always deny that they have it; thus proving that they have it. Insane people always deny their insanity, thus proving it. Spies always deny being a spy, which only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are a spy. Thus, anyone who denies being a Jesuit, proves himself to be a Jesuit. That’s why I never deny being a Jesuit; there are bunches of us hiding under the rocks, along with the communists, in the lawn of the AToday headquarters. Ervin and I sometimes get tired of hiding under the rocks, but poor Joseph McCarthy would roll over in his grave if we would hide anywhere else.
What a great example of closed-loop logic where the conclusion is predetermined and no countering information or logic is allowed. Such thinking also prevents us from growing in God because it keeps us from discovering the realities He reveals that are outside our limited conceptual box.
And then there are also those Jesuits who were assigned special spying missions. They report directly to the Pope. They are everywhere, here, at Spectrum, Advindicate, everywhere!… They are keeping an eye on everyone, taking specific notes on those who say something negative about the RCC; all for a future retribution, …
To all those who speak about the belligerent comments in the article:
You are complaining about the delivery of the comments, but not their accuracy. What you perceive as belligerence is indignation. Please differentiate.
Taylor very well knows that the majority of SDAs world wide, along with Ted Wilson, will adamantly oppose such a disrespectful suggestion.
The only belligerent person I see in this thread is Taylor, who cowardly hides behind “satire” to premeditatedly stoke the flames of instigation. One has to wonder, to what aim? Comic relief?
To those of you who see the GC as inaccurate/irrelevant today, I’ll say it again:
please present tangible and irrefutable proof as to why/how the GC is outdated.
However, keep in mind that you will have to discredit the books of Daniel, Jeremiah. Isaiah, Revelation, Ezra and many others just so that you can prove that the Papacy is not the false system of worship denounced in the GC.
Many Jewish authors have written accurate accounts of the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany and the little help given by many Germans. Should Israel apologize to the current German leaders?
The GC is an accurate account of the atrocities committed by the Papacy, which they themselves have apologized for, in many occasions! It not an attack on the hundreds of thousands sincere RC followers.
The RCC has apologized for the atrocities they’ve committed (and not all of them). Should we erase history books as…
Ms Orion let me count the ways to discredit your use of the good books of Daniel, Jeremiah. Isaiah, Revelation, Ezra and “many others.”
The five books of the Bible you reference and “many others” provide not one clue, one scintilla, not one reference of any kind to the pope of Rome or the General Conference. You and you religious buddies put him there because it is convenient. You treat those books as a Ouija board of magical information regardless of the intent of the ancient authors.
You can discover the pope using the stories of Jack and the Beanstalk, Goldilocks, Beowulf, St. George and the Dragon, or tens of thousands of other ancient stories what you do with the aforementioned books. The pope is everywhere using the same methodology.
You have an agenda (as have prophecy gleaners for hundreds of years), so you create a template, look for words that fit and, walaaaa, those long dead, unsuspecting authors are credited with ideas outside their universe but conveniently transported into ours. And without so much as a teeeensy concern that it is a mighty leap of pretension that the real meaning of those old documents has been lingering, patiently, cryptically, until the Catholic church arrives on the scene to be magically revealed by a handful of “Truth” miners.
As to the GC, it is a historical novel, a failed one, with scifi propositions based on historical facts. The few who read it aren’t moved by it.
Prophecy is for entertainment value only.
Mr. Bugs, let me count one way to discret your opinion of me:
Do you remember these words?:
“There is no probability of God. That was my point above. To be would be our creation. That’s already been done, of course, Superguy, the Christian version.
God of Incognito is a human contrivance stealth, Superguy.”
You do not believe in God. You do not believe in His Word. You do not believe in Adventism. You do not believe in Prophecy. You do not believe in the Great Controversy.
What then (I fear asking) do you believe in?
Of course you’re not going to believe that the books I referenced (especially Daniel and Revelation) point to the false system of worship – the papacy.
Ms Orion, have you ever given one minute of thought to what it means to “believe in” something? It just means you like an idea or proposition. That’s all. Whether it is true or false doesn’t matter. I’m sure you suffer the universal delusion that it does matter and that belief powerfully creates “Truth,” and that your adoption and now believing in something means you have intelligently considered all possibilities and those who disagree are idots, dumbells, or atheists.
Apparently you have toured my brain and have discovered belief vacancies on a lage scale! I thought it was a migraine! I have just posted a cranial KEEP OUT sign, a little too late, obviosly!
Can you take a minute from your visceral physical and verbal expedition to respond to my charge you must misuse ancient Scripture to dump the pope into writings where he in’t? That you can find him in Fairy tales, too? That the Great Controversy is a boring historical novel of so little interest no one will even read free hand outs.
Understood, Mr. Bugs, I will keep out (headaches sometimes come as a result of hard thinking. Glad I was able to stimulate you).
I will never respond to your charge because you do not believe in God/Bible, and my responses stem from those two sources.
Orion,
You and Bugs are making a point that is absolutely on the money. Since Bugs has a belief—in his own view of things—and that perspective precludes the possibility that Adventist eschatology has any merit in terms of accuracy or veracity, then there is nothing about any aspect of it that might tend to corroborate any other aspect of it that he can afford to accept. It is a denial bias—and is not reasonable.
So, Stephen Foster, you and Ms Orion actually have no counter against my posit that none of the predictions of Adventist eschatology have come true so you disqualify me as a non-believer in God and the Bible, avoiding facts.
How about common sense? In any other sphere failed predictions embarrass the predictors and leave them to slink away into anonymity.
I have spent fifty years studying the role of religion in human life and have never had any reason to adjust the posit at the outset of my quest that facts don’t matter in the face of invested belief. Universally Christians proclaim a desire for the Truth. It’s a fiction. The end justifies the means with facts easily discarded, ignored or manipulated to non-facts to accommodate belief. In fact “Truth,” held by conviction, is an opinion, ossified and defended without embarrassment.
In order to protect belief defense isn’t allowed on two levels. First, illustrated here, the farce of challenger disqualification. Second, the important one, facing prophetic failure exacts a huge psychological toll. The cherished belief investment was wrong and the admission requires action, with intolerable options.
Stephen and Ms Orion, say up front, “I don’t care about the facts, I believe anyway,” I would accept that as a profession of faith.
There is no public appetite for the failed eschatology represented by GC. A mail out compilation of the beautiful teachings of Christ might reface Adventism.
Clearly, you have inadvertently missed a few of my earlier responses to you on this thread Bugs (regarding this very issue). How about going back and catching up?
Clearly, you have inadvertently missed a few of my earlier responses to you on this thread Bugs (regarding this very issue). How about going back and catching up?
In a nutshell (no pun intended) what you are saying is that “I don’t care about the facts, I don’t believe anyway.” (I accept that as a matter of ‘commitment’ and denial bias on your part.)
‘Faith’ in this case would be simply inverted: the repudiation of things hoped against; the dismissal of things one sees.
Stephen, I’m not quite clear the issue you are raising and not sure to what degree our previous conversations have specifically entered this territory.
You say, of me, I think: “I don’t care about the facts, I don’t believe anyway.” OK. Not clear on the logic. But I do care about facts, in SDA eschatology there aren’t any left except as historical anecdotes. What might have been a basis for adoption of an eschatological outlook, over time, has been negated by failure of the predictions. So, I have no basis, facts, on which to base a belief.
“(I accept that as a matter of ‘commitment’ and denial bias on your part.)” I confess to being a dim bulb and not fully understanding this. If you are saying I have a bias toward skepticism, you would be right. It’s a stance I developed in reaction to my 34 year sojourn in Adventism where much of what I was fed early as a child turned out to be untrue., along with other teachings I evaluated in later life.
Your malapropism of the faith/hope text does not represent my thinking. The actual verse is one of the wisest statements in the Scripture. It states the fact that metaphor and allegory is the realm of faith. Prophecy, failed or otherwise, doesn’t fit there. It pretends to live in the now.
If you are proposing that there is still something worth honoring in the SDS eschatology, in spite of its failure, I await your explanation.
Correct me if I am wild of the mark of your reply.
If I can show how a prediction in The Great Controversy has in fact been fulfilled and/or is currently in process, would you admit to being mistaken about say, point #5?
This was a question, a deal if you will, that I had offered to you regarding your eight points.
I had also asked you the following (two) questions: Is it possible to ever show you anything that would disprove any of your points or any of your biases against eschatological prophecy?
At some point I thought you had responded to this question by saying that you would not mind being corrected as to the facts, but that the problem was that it was not possible to correct you on the facts.
Meanwhile, of course, I had also asked, Do you believe that Blue Laws—antiquated or anachronistic though they may be, or as sporadically enforced as they may be—represent an acknowledgment and a mandate of Sunday observance by the state?
Still earlier, in response to something Michael Wortman had written, I had said that as a matter of historical and contemporaneous fact Sunday Blue Laws that are currently being enforced in terms of restrictions and prohibitions of certain kinds of commercial activity represents a civilly mandated observance of Sunday as being different than other days and that the word ‘insidious’ is exemplified by the reality that many do not even realize this, much less acknowledge it.
But I had further pointed out to you that the establishments of religious-political organizations for the expressed purposes of exerting influence over, if not establishing a realm of dominion within the ranks of, civil authority to turn the nation back to God in response to the moral declension of society, in order that the wrath of God can be assuaged and economic and natural disaster can be avoided, is all predicted in The Great Controversy.
These things have happened and are now happening to a heretofore unprecedented extent; but must be denied, ignored, diminished, minimized, and/or rationalized by you since you are determined that you cannot be corrected by the facts. You have a denial bias in which no matter what happens it CANNOT be what was predicted to have happened.
Does any of this sound familiar to you Bugs? I know that Orion has kept you busy, so perhaps you missed this.
Bugs/Larry, you are most SPIRITUALLY blind about the prophecies.
ARE THEY For entertainment only? ARE YOU SERIOUS, SIR?
A MERE INDIGNATION?”
The problem with the GC book is not the past, it’s the present and future, especially now that, as you say, they apologized for the atrocities they committed in the past.
Did we accept their apology? Have we forgiven them yet?
If we didn’t, then there is a problem. And if we did, why in the world didn’t we stop attacking them with the message about the present and future that our little book contains? What is this obsessive need to keep pocking other religions, telling them that they belong to the Devil and we don’t?
I can only wonder what is actually the real ultimate goal of Adventism when it attacks other religions so belligerently, not actually just with some mere “indignation”…
Disseminating 700,000 books that are very offensive to the RCC in the town where the Pope will be visiting in a couple of days now, well, … It doesn’t look like some simple “mere indignation,” does it?
Yes, Mr. Tichy, INDIGNATION. Not just a mere one, but full fledged INDIGNATION.
The papacy decives its followers. The pope is not the vicar of Christ on earth. Sinners (myself included) should be able to kneel and pray directly to the only One who died on he cross for our sins, not confess to a mere mortal and, even worse, pray a few hail marys afterwards.
RC followers, myself, the whole world, for that matter, should know that Christ is coming and that this world is ending.
The RCC has apologized for its atrocities but not for deceiving the world, not for being the false system of worship it is.
I applaud the efforts of Remnat Publications.
Orion,
You wrote: “The RCC has apologized for its atrocities but not for deceiving the world, not for being the false system of worship it is.” What about the deceptions being spread by many other denominations, including the SDA church, which can be just as destructive against the spiritual well-being of individuals?
Deceptions (things which go contrary to the Word of God and a thus saith the Lord), which are spread by any and all denominations/systems of belief are to be denounced. My denomination is not exempt from spreading deception, as evidenced by this article…
It just so happens that this particular article brought the papacy in, thus we are discussing it now. It could have very well been something/someone else.
Orion,
“It could have very well been something/someone else.”
Do you mean in prophecy? Because apart from the “great controversy book”, what else do some use to describe the papacy?
No, Daniel, I did not mean in prophecy. I meant that this back and forth could have very well been elicited by any other topic/point of doctrine, other than the papacy.
History and the Bible are also used to describe the papacy.
Orion,
“History and the Bible are also used to describe the papacy.” I agree only on this basis: The wickedness of/in the world is the outward manifestations of the heart of man.
I, too, agree.
Respect is never outdated.
And they shall know us by our love (the LAW is LOVE) …. All those who didn’t …”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name keep the sabbath, became vegetarian and send thousands of Great Controversys to Philadelphia?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from ME, you who practice evil .’
J Faz, would you accept an invitation to a brotherly/sisterly retreat to Glacier View to watch and a enjoy a sunset with AT editors and contributors?
Who is showing the love of God here, does iGod not say the greatest commandment is love your neighbor as yourself , and here you are tearing one of our own to shreds for what he is trying to solve .. And if it is so important to get the GC into homes why hasn’t it been done in this city last year or year before ???? Just asking ..
I don’t interpret the bickering, arguments, sharp retorts, angry statements on the forum as absent love. I see it as a family affair, doing what family members do, defending and promoting points of view, with passion. Invited to group campout at Glacier View, Colorado, I feel pretty sure everyone who has ever posted here could sit behind the ID badge around the lake, watch the reflecting sun set over Arapahoe Glacier, and feel a bond of well, love, even, for whomever might be holding an ID badge on either side.
Beautifully stated Bugs!
Ervin Taylor,
If decrying the abominations of the Roman Church was a good thing (as all protestants of the 19th century thought it was), why not out-do the protestants at their own game?
“All other churches (than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are unauthorized of God. Their “articles of religion,” their creeds, their prayer books, their ordinations, their sacraments, their baptisms, their various forms of worship, their preaching and their religious assemblies are all, an abomination in the sight of heaven. There is no remission of sins, gifts of the Holy Ghost, nor legality of Priesthood, nor authorized ministrations, nor glory, nor salvation among them. There is no vision, nor revelation, nor angel, nor heavenly powers, nor prophet, nor revelator, nor inspiration, nor voice of God, nor any other communication from the heavenly world unto them. The powers of heaven and the knowledge of the true God are not known among them. This is the condition of every church throughout all Christendom: they form no part of the Church of Christ, nor of the kingdom of God.”
DIVINE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON, NUMBER 4:35
By Orson Pratt
One of the Twelve Apostles of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
December 15th, 1850.
Today, mention of other religions elicits the following response from LDS, “All religions are good. It’s just that we have more.”
My comments ref: this thread have been of study of HISTORY and actual first person observance. i was not raised in the SDA family, so have no ingrained demand for Roman Catholics
exploitation, nor a need to quote Revelation, to state the truth of the history of this organization. But rather than requote the sad sordid acts of the RCC’s past, i will comment on present ongoing of present Pope Francis, and his connection to “POWERS IN HIGH PLACES”. The pope’s demand for social justice, redistribution of global wealth, and for a Global plan for seeking an answer to “GLOBAL WARMING”, IS DECEPTIVE AND DECEIVING. It ain’t gonna happen. It is a program to gain power for formation of a “ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT”.MARRIAGE OF THE WORLD’S WEALTHY ELITE, the UNITED NATIONS, and the RCC. It is happening before our very eyes, and the global minions are totally blind to this impending menace. An analogy would be “Noah and the flood scenario”. The present Pope is a “PERONISTA”. Look at the history of Argentina since before the “PERON POLITICAL SOCIALIST SYSTEM”, which is still ongoing!!!! It has been an utter failure. Govt Economic Default, how many times???? And as Christ said “the poor will always be with you”. On Earth the most powerful always control the wealth and the lifestyles of the masses. Barbarian, Royalty,
Aristocracy, Political, Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, “the isms”, have all preached the message, deliberately and deceptively. CONT>
Up to now, 2015, all of the “ISMS” have enslaved the masses, except “Capitalism”. Capitaliam, has supplied all of the creature comforts for the masses that Royalty and Elite of the past couldn’t even dream of. The Industrial Age, the Technology Age, and now the Information AGE, have given to the masses incredible, desirable, products and knowledge. Yet there is still the continent of Africa that is still, in part, never arrived in the Earth’s taken for granted riches and comfort. There is more than enough food for all. There is not a vehicle to deliver it everyone?? Why?? Because the wealth of the nations is in the hands of a godless few, who control either the wealth in developed countries, or control the masses in tribal lands, for all of history. But now the wealth of the World, being in the hands of a few, through Capitalism, is about to lower the
curtain on FREEDOM, as we have known in the West for the past 200 years. “GOODBYE FREEDOM”. We’re gonna miss you.
Perhaps most of the anti-Catholic rhetoric will die out as we 60s-and-over die. At the rate the young are leaving the church, and at the rate the young (who stay) are seeing through the shallowness of past SDA religious foci, Catholic-phobia may go the way of various prohibitions, such as for jewelry,card playing, movie attendance, etc. and be relegated to the history books as curiosities of 19th and 20th century Adventism.
He messed up by first addressing him as “Your Holiness”. We should never apologize for the truth. Perhaps this guy never read the Great Controversy and there should never be an alliance with the beast; by rejecting this writing, people are making the biggest mistake of their lives. It’s not a conspiracy theory. We need to read the Word of God and stand up for truth Ellen G White stood up for truth and I know this because I prayed to know. If you have any doubt about anything, pray to Jesus and He will show you what is the right way.
Hi dparpari,
The Jesus I pray to never told me to read the “Great Controversy”. But I know for certain He wants me to read the Holy Scriptures, which testify of Him.
Regards.
Ervin Taylor are you for real? Addressing the Pope as ‘Your Holiness’, that would be the ultimate in idolatry. Why do you waste our time with this dribble. Go and become a Catholic now and worship the Pope if that is the way you feel.
Hi Orion,
You wrote: “However, keep in mind that you will have to discredit the books of Daniel, Jeremiah. Isaiah, Revelation, Ezra and many others just so that you can prove that the Papacy is not the false system of worship denounced in the GC.” (Great Controversy)
The most destructive form of false doctrine is when one mixes Holy Scripture with unholy writings, derived from corrupt minds and ungodly intentions. These people also specialize in propagating their lies in an attempt to gain leverage against those who are not familiar with their Bible. Your statement above demonstrates that if one is not for EGW (Great Controversy) they are against her [and] the Bible. When at the end, a convert rejects EGW they also reject the Holy Scriptures, because they have become so delusional and confused they don’t know what the truth is anymore. And as for those who use EGW as leverage to support their false doctrines and ideas have no understanding in the Holy Scriptures themselves. Having rejected the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they have turned aside to “old wives fables”.
Therefore, without extra-biblical sources, tell me, what proof do you have the Papacy is clearly portraying in the Holy Scriptures as the “beast”? But if Bible Prophecy is intended to reveal who we are spiritually, then would not this “beast”, or governing power, have its roots in every human mind? Why else does it say, “come out of her my people”?
Cont.
Am I now supporting the Papacy? They don’t even come into my mind. Salvation is between me and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. How does “the world, out there” affect your Salvation which should deal with your inner man, that is, “inside”?
I don’t agree with Bugs Larry Boshell very often, but he has, on this occasion, spoken the truth. Except for his last sentence, which, I would understand, was intended for those who use prophecy falsely, twisting it to mean something it does not, only to show the world they have superior knowledge in Bible Prophecy. But Bible Prophecy understood through and by the Holy Spirit is definitely not for entertainment purposes, but a matter of Salvation and the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Just a few thoughts to consider.
Hi Daniel,
What I meant in my statement above is simply this:
A Christian author wrote a Christian book primarily based on two books of the Bible. Being that some are opposed to the contents of the book, then they will have to first disprove those two Biblical books to then in turn disprove the GC.
Brother (may I call you that?) not for a second do I believe you now support the papacy. You might not believe me, but I even believe Mr. Taylor when he says he has major theological disagreements with the RCC. In my opinion, this article is of an instigative nature more than it is supportive of the papacy (which it is).
There will be countless souls who have, are and will be saved without ever having believed in EGW’s writings. I’ve never made that a test of faith, as she is not the Gospel, Christ is. Does that mean that her (inspired) writings should be rejected? Of course not. While giving Bible studies I’ve met souls that have been so afraid of being deceived that they feared venturing down her road.
Thankfully, salvation belongs to a merciful God who understands the souls of us all. It is up to Him to decide which non- EGW believing soul will be saved, and which one will not be.
For those that reject her prophetic writings because they perceive them to be outdated 19th century works, and for no other reason (since they have yet to provide tangible/irrefutable proof as to why her writings are wrong); well then, that is their prerogative as…
Well.
I have the right to defend the Bible and EGW.
Mr. Taylor and all who will have the right to not believe in EGW. They do not have the right to mock those of us who do believe while hiding behind “satirical” articles.
To the outside world affecting my salvation part:
Christ commanded His followers, me included, to preach His Gospel to every creature. The Bible is the Word of God. Not just the New Testament, not just the four Gospels; the entire Word. (Christ makes quite a few appearances in the book of Revelation, btw). I have to teach His entire Word, I have to learn, to believe His entire Word, because the Whole Bible points to Him!
Should I just remain silent when someone says something contrary to the Word of God just because I should only focus on my personal salvation?
Lastly, without extra-biblical sources, the only proof I have to show that the Papacy is clearly portrayed in the Holy Scriptures as the “beast” are… The Holy Scriptures themselves!
Mainly the books of Daniel and Rev… If not the papacy, and without using extra-biblical sources, who/what else could Rev. 13, 14 be possibly referring to?
As well as Rev. 17, of course
Orion,
You wrote: “Mainly the books of Daniel and Rev… If not the papacy, and without using extra-biblical sources, who/what else could Rev. 13, 14 be possibly referring to?”
As I stated earlier: The wickedness of/in the world is the outward manifestations of the heart of man. To understand any Prophecy people must look into themselves, through the Holy Scriptures and by the Holy Spirit, to see if there is anything in them which is contrary to God and His perfect life. Because humanity has become so corrupted by sin we may think we are living Holy lives before God, but are in fact powerless to know anything without God’s intervention through His Son Jesus Christ. This Testimony, which God has given us of His Son and our Salvation through Him, has been revealed through the Prophets and the Apostles and are written in the Holy Scriptures, “which are a light that shines in a dark place”.
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near”. Does this not speak to everyone, including you and me?
Peace, my friend.
Hi Orion,
Firstly, I did not mean our personal Salvation should be kept to ourselves, but rather it deals with the inner man and has nothing to do with what others are doing in the world. If it were, then Salvation, as far as we are concerned, would be a corporate matter; and so would sin. That is to say, we could say, “the devil made me do it, therefore I am without fault.” And yet it is a corporate matter, as far as God is concerned, “For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
And yes, Salvation belongs to a merciful God, or rather, comes from the merciful God through Christ Jesus our Lord.
I do not disagree with your desire to support and defend the Bible. But as far as EGW is concerned, let me explain how I see it and then you judge for yourself.
One of the most contradictory aspects of EGW’s writings is this: She claims to be the “lesser light leading people to the great light”; the Holy Scriptures are the “lesser light leading people to Christ”. She did not claim to be a prophet and yet some believe she was. She states not to hold her above the Holy Scriptures; but people do. Why? Because in their minds she has become an all pervasive force; and for them her words have become “God-inspired”.
I could go on but won’t. I trust you understand my point?
Absolutely. I do not disagree with what you just said and I do believe she was God inspired.
Hi Orion,
Firstly, I did not mean our personal Salvation should be kept to ourselves, but rather it deals with the inner man and has nothing to do with what others are doing in the world. If it were, then Salvation, as far as we are concerned, would be a corporate matter; and so would sin. That is to say, we could say, “the devil made me do it, therefore I am without fault.” And yet it is a corporate matter, as far as God is concerned, “For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
And yes, Salvation belongs to a merciful God, or rather, comes from the merciful God through Christ Jesus our Lord.
I do not disagree with your desire to support and defend the Bible. But as far as EGW is concerned, let me explain how I see it and then you judge for yourself.
One of the most contradictory aspects of EGW’s writings is this: She claims to be the “lesser light leading people to the great light”; the Holy Scriptures are the “lesser light leading people to Christ”. She did not claim to be a prophet and yet some believe she was. She states not to hold her above the Holy Scriptures; but people do. Why? Because in their minds she has become an all pervasive force; and for them her words have become “God-inspired”. It is sad, but true.
I could go on but won’t. I trust you understand my point?
Sorry, Re-posted this by mistake.
Thank you for sharing. Peace be unto you, as well
Daniel,
It was the protestants of the 16th century who identified the papacy as the first beast of Revelation 13 and the great whore of Revelation 17. I have no particular reason to disagree with the 16th century protestants on that point. If I did, I’d stop thinking of myself as a protestant.
At the same time, to make that point the centerpiece of eschatology and then make eschatology the centerpiece of a so-called “gospel” never did make any sense to me. It makes even less sense in the 21st century.
Furthermore, to continue to harp on that point raises the very real possibility that the prophecy will be self-fulfilling. If someone continued to obsess about something I did decades ago, it might very well enrage me.
Just saying.
Earl, as you bid freedom ‘goodbye,’ and anticipate the arrival of a fairly heavy-handed regime, I’d like to ask what you make of Rom 1.1-10. Basically Paul says, honour the government, it is of God. And concludes with, ‘owe no man anything save to love your brother, for love is the fulfilling of the law.’
So the simple question is this: Even if the RCC was, by some miracle, to regain country or worldwide political power, would we not be obliged to respect its governing powers, on the basis of Paul’s admonition?
As I said earlier above, “Showing a leader courtesy does not mean that you agree with them; it just means that you are a courteous, Christ-like person.”
I am not in agreement that an apology for the mass distribution of a key writing of Ellen White should be forthcoming from the head of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I am very glad to see this book as widely distributed as possible. Next to the Bible, it is one of the few books I find invaluable in putting past and present Christian and prophetic history into understandable language.
Understandable is a low threshold. Accuracy and helpfulness and kindness be damned, but make it understandable.
Serge, i believe you are referring to Romans 13, and Matt 22. i interpret these passages as 1.Referring to God and His apostles, and leaders in the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. 2. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars, refers to levied taxes, and to local laws of areas ruled from Rome.
Man should never not defend his own body and his family members, and his neighbors. And the stranger needing help.
i don’t believe God expects us to support autocrats, and sinful murdering authorities, or as at presently in the world, overlords in the Middle East, raping and lopping off heads, and terrorists gaining control of villages through out North Africa, or anywhere else. Of course misogynist Paul, was a very unusual man, steeped in the Greek.
Earl, yes, Rom 13 and Matt 5: 38 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
Personally, I find these verses very hard sayings! Its far more than paying taxes. It is literally, zero resistance to those who would do evil into us. I realise that with this policy, ISIS would rule the world and behead all infidels within months. He also said, ‘fear not those that destroy the body.’ Such are the demands of faith, I guess.
A for Paul, he was no misogynist. There are some NT texts attributed to Paul which he likely did not write. But he did write Romans and he did exhort believers to respect even the fickle autocratic rule of the Caesars, contests with lions in the Coliseum notwithstanding.
Serge,
I like your understanding regarding Romans 13 and fully agree with you. Here is another way of looking at it.
I believe Paul is speaking about angels, because he says: “For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil”. (Verse 4.) Again in Heb.13:17 he says: “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” “20 Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.” Ex. 23:20.
Another good example is when Balaam disobeyed God; (I’m only quoting parts of this passage):
22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him….23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand,… 31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand;….” (Num. 22:22-33.)
Cont.
Indeed those who are born of God do not sin and are lead by the Spirit of God. There is no authority over them but Jesus Christ Himself, Who is King of kings and Lord of lords. Christians have moved up a level, as far as authorities are concerned, (not in a high-minded way, might I add) unlike the ungodly who remain under human rule because they reject God’s authority. Nevertheless all are under God the Father’s authority.
I like the way Paul refers to this again in 1 Cor.4:
“3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.”
No doubt respecting human authorities is beneficial for all to live in peace. Love your neighbor as yourself, for Love is of God.
So, I also agree with Earl on most of his points, by not on this one: “Of course misogynist Paul, was a very unusual man, steeped in the Greek.” Sorry, Earl; just don’t see it.
That is an interesting approach to the Paul text, Daniel. I’ll look at it more closely. But the Matthew texts remain.
Re Paul’s so-called misogyny. How could someone who came out of Judaism with the singularly consistent message, ALL ARE ONE in Christ, there is neither male nor female,…. how could this be in any way consistent with simultaneous denigration of the female? That, plus the text analysis which says that Paul didn’t write those passages, whole books in some cases. Not sure why mere tradition that Paul wrote them needs to stand.
Paul was unusual. He understood ‘Christ in you’ more than anyone, then or since, I suspect.
Serge,
Yes, it would be very unusual for Paul to deny the value of women and marriage, considering both are from God. I think the reason many misrepresent Paul and the things he wrote is due to the spiritual nature of his messages.
Yes, Paul was unusual—he followed Christ, even unto his death. I like Paul.
As for “taxes”, Jesus said: “Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me”. Luke 18:22; that solves that issue? If only we had faith like that.
I was the first person to post a comment regarding this article by Ervin Taylor. After reading almost 500 responses to this article, thus far, I am now convinced that the article reveals much more than my original comment was bable to capture and have changed my original conclusion. Ervin Taylor was at his best in writing this article. He accomplished (intentionally or non-intentionally) several goals:
Increased appreciation of diversity involves interpretative reasoning skills, and opinion forming skills. These skills are high order thinking skills that can only be learned by experience.
Artistic appreciation can be detached or involved:
detached: Attention is focussed on form, structure, and technique. This is an intellectual response to the work.
involved: Attention is focussed on how the work affects the observer, this is an emotional response to the work. What feelings, sympathies, or emotions does it evoke Artistic creation
Ervin’s article was an exercise in communication; if we define communication by the fact that it is the transfer of meaning, the message must be sent and received with strength and clarity to be effective, It was! Imagination, in the form of an imaginary letter, was involved of course, but it is not used in order to escape reality, rather it is used to find more effective ways of describing or representing it.
So, Ervin, keep up the good work! I will learn to be more tentative next time when making literary judgments.
Last night I read a comment on this AToday site by David Newman, telling of a pastor in the conference east (close to G.C., can’t remember which one) where the senior pastor of an 850 member congregation, turned in his ordination certificate and became a commissioned pastor. Two of the other pastors and he are now commissioned only.
Do you remember on which site it can be found?
We can assume, i suspect, that Irv’s intellect is far beyond his critics herein, backbiting with hate and condemned to hellfire, by those unable to detect a farcical satirical
epistle.
Who do you suppose is being slighted here when the messengers that have been faithful in distributing the Great Controversy are being referred to as “Misguided.” Obviously the guide. So who is the guide leading these men and women to distribute these books?
“The Great Controversy,” Above Silver or Gold.– The Great Controversy should be very widely circulated. It contains the story of the past, the present, and the future. In its outline of the closing scenes of this earth’s history, it bears a powerful testimony in behalf of the truth. I am more anxious to see a wide circulation for this book than for any others I have written; for in The Great Controversy, the last message of warning to the world is given more distinctly than in any of my other books.–Letter 281, 1905. {CM 127.1}
Have you never read the instructions EGW gave for how her books were to be distributed? She told us to go out two-by-two, engage with people and only give them books when we discern spiritual interest. What part of those steps do you find in a mass mailout of the book? NONE!
When God tells us how He wants us to do something but we don’t do it that way, is that not an act of disobedience? How can we expect God to bless an act of disobedience?
Let’s just closely follow your logic here William. If through Ellen White God gave us instructions on how Ellen White’s writings are to be distributed, and we are disobeying God if we fail to follow Ellen White’s instructions (on how her writings are to distributed); does this mean that what Ellen White wrote was from God?
Does this also mean that you would heartily endorse going out in groups of two to distribute The Great Controversy in Philadelphia this month; or anywhere, at anytime, as long as White’s instructions were followed?
🙂 Eagerly awaiting that answer!
When in doubt, read and follow the instructions. Then act when and where the Holy Spirit directs.
My opinion is that mailing the book just prior to the Pope’s visit was a mistake that speaks volumes about how many in the church react with alarm to events instead of working steadily and confidently in the power of the Holy Spirit. With the attention of so many in the Philadelphia area focused on the Pope’s visit, why should we imagine they would be interested in a book exposing his role in prophecy? That’s creating confrontation and promoting opposition to whatever message you are spreading instead of a polite and thoughtful presentation that stimulates interest.
Yeah William, we know that you would have preferred that The Great Controversy had not been mailed; and it follows that you would have preferred that it not be mailed when the pope was coming. We already knew all of that.
My question to you had to do with source of the material in the book. Do you believe that whatever instructions EGW gave for the distribution of her writings and the writings themselves both came from God? That’s the first question.
The other question is would you have endorsed going out in groups of two to distribute that book (and if not, why not)?
I sure would be interested in where those instructions are for distributing EGW writings. I’m very skeptical that she gave only one means by which her books were to be circulated; so please provide that source reference so we can all read it for ourselves. I’m sure you are aware that there are Adventists who claim to quote or paraphrase things from White that White herself never actually said or wrote; or have taken things that she did say or write out of context.
Stephen,
The more important questions are if you believe the instructions were from God. Apparently not, because you expressed approval of the mass mailout even though the instructions were for delivery after making personal contact and discerning interest.
It is easy to fall into the trap of doing we think is best. That’s what got Cain into trouble. We’ve also got the popular attitude that it’s OK to do what seems good, or what makes us feels good. That’s what the popular Liberal politics that you embrace teaches, not what God teaches.
As for the source, you claim to know more about Ellen White’s writings than me and you say you don’t believe anything I say, so I’m surprised you weren’t telling me where to find it. Or, are you not as familiar with your writings as you claim? So, why don’t you look it up and learn what she said for yourself? While you’re at it, read what she says about not stirring-up controversy and avoiding doing things that create roadblocks to acceptance of the Gospel. It’s the old “wise as serpents but harmeless as doves,” thing Jesus talked about.
Hi Samuel,
You wrote: “The Great Controversy, Above Silver or Gold.”
This unusual perception of her words as being God-inspired is what I covered with Orion earlier. The fact you ascribe to her this title says volumes. Why do I say this? Let me quote Scripture for you:
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, all the judges of the earth. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of justice, 21 that I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, that I may fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth. (Prov.8)
Jesus Christ is the “power of God and the wisdom of God” 1 Cor.1:24.
Peace.
Samuel: ” So who is the guide leading these men and women to distribute these books?”
Somewhere above this post is one, fairly recently, where the author claims that the Remnant mvmt sent out the books at the behest of Elder Wilson. IF, and it is a big IF, that is true, then is not he the guide, in this case?
The author of this apostate article is a jesuit.
So am I, and so are you. There are Jesuits under every rock.
what a shock –Ervin taylor all lower case because you are speaking your own confused words that’s not from above if you or ted really believe that then join the Catholics . really our holiness ? ONLY GOD IS HOLY shame on you for speaking for my church .you sound like Obama speaking for the people .junk go away .if you work for the church you should go before them and be removed from office for writing words of treason God have mercy
Umm, Roy, this may come as a shock, but if you are a believer in Jesus, you too are called holy. Everywhere your bible uses the word ‘saint’ it is translating the greek ‘hagios’ or hagia, which means holy. God is hagia, you, in Christ, are hagia. Same word. So, lets give Jorge Imbroglio, aka Frank Pappa the benefit of the doubt. He claims to be a Christian, he says a lot of nice Christian things. Lets even go so far as to say he might be Christian. In this case, he too, is hagia. If you, in fact, are also hagia, you can be generous enough in spirit to allow him that. After all, you do not know what is in his heart.
The second word Erv employed in the headline to his piece apparently was missed by the insane effluvia slingers, who, if they had read it, (is there a chance they just don’t know what it means, judging by their childish harangues), would have been disarmed at the outset and decreased the silly replies by at least half.
Proposed. Yes, that’s it. “A Proposed Letter of Apology. . .”
I question the sanity of those who don’t know what a trial balloon is, especially a satirical one. The discourse, speculation, mindless extrapolations, give wacko religion a bad name. Erv has been burned at the stake by idiots who could have kept their cigarettes lighters and kindling in their bags for a nice campfire at Glacier View if they just understand the word “Proposal.”
I foresaw Erv as target, but not the rabid Firestarter’s with torches and pyre materials in hand.
Religion really isn’t all that serious. How do I know? Everyone dies in the end at which time treasured head storms are relinquished. Ease up. No one is one-up on all the rest. Laugh, it’s good for the soul. I don’t want to modify my previous post that we are a family without hate, just passion.
Can’t we gather at Glacier View Lake and roast some marshmallows around a fun bonfire? There we can give Erv a high five and say in our best current high school lingo Erv, ya dun gud.” He can entertain us about the joys of martyrdom on AT. And I can explain what effluvia means before I’m tossed in the…
Lake.
Everyone’s view of heaven is a personal extension of an ideal.
Suppose Heaven is a version of Glacier View (an Adventist campground high in the Colorado Rocky Mountains with a shimmering lake and stunning glacial vistas to its west). And suppose you are seated for the sunset view and discover the current Pope next to you and one of his Cardinals on the other side. Are you going to run screaming to Jesus and proclaim it’ me or them there isn’t room for us three here?
Every version of a benevolent God that I am aware of is a universe beyond us in generosity, forgiveness and understanding. It is sheer idolatry for one to assume he/she know God’s mind and therefore knows the invitation list and rsvps to his kingdom. If one follows Christ’s advice to love one another here then there will be no population surprises there, and nothing but joy for whomever your neighbor is.
Adventism has a horrible time condemning condemnation. GC us a book of condemnation.
Why do you devout hardliners want to push a viewpoint, a book, that has no persuasive power, has never seriously increased church rolls or membership, keeps Adventism obsolete and tied to the failed past. In the common sense world what doesn’t work is abandoned and replace with what does.
One of Ervs accomplishments here is to draw out the joy of condemnation surviving in Adventism today. Erv, ya dun gud!
Mail out a beautiful book of Christs beautiful words. Love is winsome, attracts.
I feel there’s needy for these men to say something. By being quiet they are send a message to the world that the letter was written and for it to bear the name of Ted Wilson it means they conspired if not let pastor Ted Wilson come out clearly on the issue. why keep quiet on such an issue causing an uproar among the people? By the way if this quietness prolongs, I, personally will reflect back to the words his father used on the adventist doctrine. So for him to clear himself he’s gat to come out clearly. Because am sure he’s aware that such is going on if indeed this letter was written. And honestly how do you apologise on behalf of millions of people? You must apologise on behalf of yourself and your family if you haven’t gotten consent.
Who thinks the letter was really written? Nobody does. Not anyone. Nada. Ted’s name isn’t on anything coming from this AT Forum. If he reads this forum (that would be mighty stretch) my guess is that in the privacy of his computer room he is getting a good laugh out of it. In all likelihood, he guffaw at this imaginary Proposal letter that would surely end up in the trash can of one of the Popes aids if it did get sent to him. Of course the Pope may have good sense of humor, too, and would enjoy the silliness of such a missive.
Judging from the majority of comments, they are indicative of the IQ of those who wrote, misunderstanding satire.
We should hope that they don’t represent the majority of Adventists. If so, it is most disheartening and discouraging for the church’s future. But then, we got a good glimpse at S.A. of the majority.
Sadly, some reflect the educational level of the JW’s.
You must be a highly intelligent individual. Good for you.
Ms Orion, Sarcasm denotes envy. You would do well to covet Elaine’s wisdom earned during her life that has stretched approximately 3 times longer than yours.
I know who I am, and what I am not; think what you will of me.
What does “satire”, then, denote, btw?
I googled the word. Here’s its definition:
“The use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or RIDICULE to expose and criticize people’s STUPIDITY or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues”.
Its synonyms are: MOCKERY, RIDICULE, DERISION, SCORN, CARICATURE, etc…
You defend this artical as satirical. Very glad to see what you, Taylor and others, by definition, purposed to achieve with this article, which is aimed at Ted Wilson and GC believers… Using “satire” to make your point across tells a whole lot about you and Taylor, Mr. Bugs.
Should I point out the various intances where you’ve used sarcasm on this thread? Whom/what, by your own definition, were you envious of?
I do well in coveting the wisdom found in other places other than Elaine’s knowledge, being that she uses that very wisdom to condescend on others.
The whole world does not understand the English language. Many – not all, but many – who misread this article have a lower working knowledge of the English language. They did not misunderstand because they have a lower IQ, as Elaine put it.
Didn’t you ask me to KEEP OUT because I gave you a headache? Why are you addressing me?
Brilliant!
I am wondering why no one suggests here that the “satire” of this blog is not that it would necessarily be righteous and true to apologize to a fellow Christian cleric (however misguided) but that our Adventist culture negates even the most remote possibility that we would ever politically allow our GC leader to do such a thing, and not run him out of Silver Spring on a silver spike.
We are not really that good at apologizing to one another, let alone to one many consider a spiritual enemy.
I hope in time we will find reason to continue to include the Great Controversy as a pivotal book in our libraries and for distribution, while doing that work in a gracious and nuanced fashion that brings good fellowship, along with good doctrine. The old saying still goes, “I don’t care what you know, unless I first know that you care.”
Dear Readers of Adventist Today
It is recently come to my attention that certain misguided writers of Adventist Today have taken the position that if a book was written prior to this century it is unreliable.
NEWS FLASH: THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN ALMOST 2000 YEARS AGO.
As we compare what ET has written it is clear this writing does not pass the test of to the law and to the testimony… so there is no light in him.
Does this article represent the views of AT? And I almost sent a donation.
To pose as a serious minded place to discuss issues in the name of correcting the negatives found in the church then to toss EGW out the window seems dishonest. Take EGW out of the SDA church and we have rejected an integral part of the church. Inclusion of the ministry of EGW in the SDA Church is fundamental. To claim otherwise is dishonest.
Spoof or not, ET writes to denigrate EGW and the book Great Controversy.
The battle for minds is real. Let’s be clear where we stand.
Allen, you are clearly ignorant of the history of the “Bible.” It wasn’t “written.” And the “almost 2000 years ago” isn’t accurate in any sense. Study the history of the Bible and come back and restate your premise.
Please understand, I’m not suggesting you are dumb, just not informed.
Allen, but you did miss the finer point that Erv was making re GC and its understanding of history. Not all books pre1900 are by dint of age, inaccurate. But GC does not present history, or prophecies beyond the millennium, accurately. Its a dud book. Maybe EGW can blame the folks who complied it for her.
Earl, this thread might better be described as entertaining, at least to me. And as is usual when AT readers become animated on a topic, some very fine points have been made, some even relevant to the topic of the blog.
Larry….. I’m not certain, but I think Glace and Glaze share etymological roots. But I would love to camp by that lake of yours, imbibing the Glaze. After all, it was the view of that glacier which gave its name to one of the great turning points of my life. And its been all UP from there. But hold the marshmallows thanks. Going easy on the sugar nowdays.
Heavenly Glacier View, my simple metaphor designed for a certain readership, still has Earl somersaulting in spasms of laughter, and perhaps derision, as he seems to think it actually represents my best version of the other side. He’s unnerved by my use of traditional “god talk,” a reserve he wasn’t aware I had archived for such a time as this! He’ll get over it!
Glacier View was where my kids went to camp, I attended “workers meetings” and other functions before my church exit. I missed the big meeting there. One of the fascinating things I have learned on this forum is how the same information leads to diverse individual decisions and consequential directions.
Glace and or Glaze (etymological roots?) is new to me but would sip it with joy. Some sipping elixirs from Ireland or Kentucky might meet my simple expectations!
Thanks for the reference!
This is getting most comical. Let’s all have a great big belly laugh and move on. Those certain of a conspiracy here at Atoday will never get The “nauseous odor” out of their navel passages. O’, that’s another blog. Uh, Larry, too bad,
while at Glazier View, that rediscovered Edenic Paradise on Earth, you got sprayed by a kitty cat with a big white stripe down it’s back. Ugh, Ahhhhhh, Yuk yuk yuk.
Earl, I never ye as a Cockeyed pessimist! Ticks scripted to destroy all living creatures are the littlest big threats at Glacier View (not “Glazier), not the gassy cats! I’m starting to think you don’t understand me! In my heavenly version of that retreat I pray you are seated next to Ted Wilson on one side and his Holiness Pope on the other! There. That’s my fav conspiracy theory! See you laugh then, rascal!
If even some of these comments represent members’ thinking, they have swallowed hook, line, and sinker, of the bait furnished by the EGW teachings they adopted. Leave them to their papal paranoia and ignorance. They are largely harmless as anyone with a grain of intelligence can clearly discern their thinking. It is to be hoped that the same enthusiasm is not directed to converting anyone, other than some with the same low level of intelligence to believe them.
I heard Satan is pretty intelligent and recruiting…
BTW, a person with your level of “intelligence” might try to read some history. You can figure many things from it, without EGW’s books.
I’m sure you prepared a letter of apology to Satan, in the name of God…
Seb…. Kool and Sharp. Although sacrilegious.
Well,that letter you are saying that is about what?
Our brother can not apologize for that.
That is true pope is antichrist,we will not stop distribute the great controversy.
This proposed letter, if true, really sends shivers down my spine. The language used is satanic and does not seem to be coming from the President. You better check your standing when you start apologizing for believing the truth. We are almost home beloved of my Father. Let’s get our lives in order, we have no time to lose. God bless
“Your malapropism of the faith/hope text does not represent my thinking. The actual verse is one of the wisest statements in the Scripture. It states the fact that metaphor and allegory is the realm of faith. Prophecy, failed or otherwise, doesn’t fit there. It pretends to live in the now.”
So Bugs, the faith/hope text as I have appropriated a paraphrasing may not represent your thinking but it sure does represent what you have written with regard to that which is occurring and has occurred; no matter what your thinking may be. I can only gauge what you write as representative of what you think.
The actual text does not state that state or even imply that metaphor and allegory is the realm of faith. From where do you get that idea?
Prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled does appropriate faith. Prophecy that has been fulfilled doesn’t require faith because it is evidenced by what we see and know has occurred.
Contrary to what you say, faith, as described in Hebrews 11 deals with the future as well as the “now;” as “things hoped for” obviously implies. My point is that to the extent that there are prophetic things which you are hoping against hope against, you will and must deny the substance of that which you now see. Your denial bias turns faith on its head.
Do us both a favor and go back and read what I have previously written to you on this thread in order to facilitate an understanding of what I’m saying; if indeed there remains any doubt.
Correction: The actual text does not state or even imply “that metaphor and allegory is the realm of faith.” From where do…
Stephen, interpreting texts is an opinion enterprise for which there is ammunition for an infinity of blah blah blah. You are satisfied with your understanding. That is your profession of faith, your interpretation of evidence of things not seen, where prophecy functions as the substance of things hoped for. I get it. That means that “soon” is an appropriate re-qualifier for what I call failed predictions. You label it “hoping against hope.” I say such prophecy is trash, “soon” is cop out, a denial of reality. So your appraisal of my position is that “Your denial bias turns faith on its head.”
I stand by my assessment that the realm of faith is metaphor and allegory, to which I might even add an element of myth to the mix. Religious belief and “faith” isn’t in any way invalidated by this view. It is nothing but an honest statement of the dreamland one enters in the experience of religious function. Faith is a mental purchase of hope and expectation extending beyond material. It is singular, private, and opinion based.
There is no such thing as “fulfilled prophecy,” other than through templates created to locate them. Remove the mental model, reread the scriptures, and you won’t locate any fulfillment. You will find cryptic language, strange monsters, allegories, metaphors, history, 2300 days. Give a Bible to a Hindu for his first read. Will he find prophecy fulfilled? Nope. Adventism wildly seeks verification and creates it in “prophecy.”
Bugs, if I show how a prediction in The Great Controversy has in fact been fulfilled and/or is currently in process, would you admit to being mistaken about say, point #5?
This was a question, a deal if you will, that I had offered to you regarding your eight points.
I had also asked you the following (two) questions: Is it possible to ever show you anything that would disprove any of your points or any of your biases against eschatological prophecy?
At some point I thought you had responded to this question by saying that you would not mind being corrected as to the facts, but that the problem was that it was not possible to correct you on the facts.
Meanwhile, of course, I had also asked, Do you believe that Blue Laws—antiquated or anachronistic though they may be, or as sporadically enforced as they may be—represent an acknowledgment and a mandate of Sunday observance by the state?
Still earlier, in response to something Michael Wortman had written, I had said that as a matter of historical and contemporaneous fact Sunday Blue Laws that are currently being enforced in terms of restrictions and prohibitions of certain kinds of commercial activity represents a civilly mandated observance of Sunday as being different than other days and that the word ‘insidious’ is exemplified by the reality that many do not even realize this, much less acknowledge it.
But I had further pointed out to you that the establishments of religious-political organizations for the expressed purposes of exerting influence over, if not establishing a realm of dominion within the ranks of, civil authority to turn the nation back to God in response to the moral declension of society, in order that the wrath of God can be assuaged and economic and natural disaster can be avoided, is all predicted in The Great Controversy.
These things have happened and are now happening to a heretofore unprecedented extent; but must be denied, ignored, diminished, minimized, and/or rationalized by you since you are determined that you cannot be corrected by the facts. You have a denial bias in which no matter what happens it CANNOT be what was predicted to have happened.
These things have happened and are happening precisely where and for the precisely predicted stated reasons why, yet you CANNOT accept that they have even occurred, just as you cannot accept that Blue Laws that are currently being enforced represent a civilly mandated observance of Sunday.
Forget “soon,” it is already on dude. But you may have been so traumatized by your unfortunate youth that you’re too scared/scarred to face it. That is why I’m here my man. (Smile.)
OK, Stephen.
“5: Not one Adventist end time prediction has happened, each has retreated to the copout of “soon.”
As a child in Colorado, most retails stores were closed as a state mandate for Sunday observance. Entering a drug store, illegal sales were roped off to allow for a purchase of health items. Those laws disappeared by the late fifties as I remember. A remnant remains as a state law forbidding new car dealers to operate on Sunday. It’s now a business function. Repeal comes up annually for consideration, has for years, dealers enjoy the noncompetitive value of everyone shutting down. Religious function isn’t remotely part of their status quo concern. The Catholic church doesn’t care. But if you want to credit that as a prophetical fulfillment, fine with me.
I certainly don’t know what is going on everywhere in regard to Blue Laws as a state mandate for a holy day. I await enlightenment from you, Wortman or anyone. But Sunday mandates for nonreligious reasons don’t count from here on. Adventists will always see a religious angle, even when there isn’t one.
In the meantime I’ll consider the flotsam of a single grasped straw as minor contradiction victory.
State mandate of Sunday observance by means of Catholic promotion of Sunday, with personal penalties aimed at Sabbath keepers never happened. Isn’t that the real part of the Catholic/state cabal that never occurred per the prediction in GC. In that sense I am still one up!
Bugs, if you would kindly do me the service of reading what I write a little more carefully it would save me the time of repeating myself. I did not list the Blue Laws that are currently enforced as anything other than the civilly mandated observance of Sunday as different from other days. It is what lawyers refer to a precedent. It is precedent to the enactment of somewhat similar national or federal law, which has been predicted. The existing laws indicate the willingness of civil authority to recognize and observe Sunday.
On the other hand, I did state that the establishments of religious-political organizations for the expressed purposes of exerting influence over, if not establishing a realm of dominion within the ranks of, civil authority, to turn the nation back to God as a response to the moral declension of society, in order that the wrath of God can be assuaged and economic and natural disaster can be avoided, was expressly predicted in The Great Controversy.
You have heard the rhetoric as well as I have. The rhetoric itself was predicted; practically verbatim; as have the efforts to acquire influence and power by religious entities for the stated purposes of returning America back to God. That has occurred with intensity since the latter part of the 20th century and was predicted to occur in America a century earlier in The Great Controversy.
Ignoring it doesn’t make it any less true; try as you might.
So, SDA has totally gone berserk! You are guys denouncing the very faith your sect used to preach and promote in the past. Might as well go to the Pope, ask for his absolution and return to your Mother, wayward sectarian daughters of fraud!!!!
As an aside, the thing that I most appreciate about this thread is that it confirms my theory that practically (if not actually) all of the opposition and antipathy toward EGW at its core is about ‘The Great Controversy.’ I wrote a blog on this site a while back stating this. Here it is again: https://atoday.org/the-mini-great-controversy.html
I just reviewed your blog linked here. Wish I had seen it before, it would have honed my understating of your position. (Thank goodness for the 1500 word limitation today)!
The world really isn’t divide between Ellen admirers and those rejecting her. Mostly no one cares because she isn’t important or relevant. She has an ethically untainted, interesting history, a worthy legacy, but outside the soundproof chamber of Adventism, no magnetic intellectual or spiritual contributions of note. That’s the cause of external antipathy. Opposition , inside the chamber or elsewhere, is generally generated by the use given to her by others. Those, like you, who view her as a “prophet” are welcome to your opinion. You obviously find fuel for your spiritual life in her writings.
Is the Great Controversy the backfire torching Ellen? No. It was relevant early on, but not now. Its historical account and proposed outcome was germane in her time because of the then fairly recent Catholic misdeeds
The Great Controversy doesn’t add or subtract to a view of Ellen. It’s just a bad book, fails on its own. As history, libraries are full of better ones (some she sourced). As to prophecy, perhaps sci-fi, similar ones are a dime a dozen and all Bible predictions end up as they fail, being relegated to “soon,” or another way of hoping against hope.
The displayed positive mindset behind the impotent GC doesn’t harm Ellen, but is a mud hook to the church she loved.
This is interesting Bugs. You’ve continued to offer no comment or reaction whatsoever to the examples of precisely fulfilled prophecy in The Great Controversy; not even after my repeated references to them.
As we’ve noted, you must ignore, minimize, or rationalize actual events. What other option do you have? (Oh yeah, other than sarcasm and attempts at ridicule, that is—I almost forgot.)
Stephen, I was lied to as a child by well-meaning people who themselves had been manipulated (lied to) by promoters of Adventist eschatology.
I grew up from babyhood as an Adventist and was imprinted by the expectation of the soon showing of the half man-hand sized cloud in the sky. These are the lies fed to scare me in support of his supposed immanent appearance: wars and rumors of wars, Sunday blue laws, torture chambers in Catholic Churches, strange climate activates, ecumenism, approaching ice age, tornados, blizzards, droughts, erosion of religious freedom by sinister forces, plane crashes, train wrecks, moral declension of society, Catholic president, and a caboodle of others, including your list above.
And it turned out the threat of Jesus soon showing soon was also a lie.
I figured early on those are signs of every times and had nothing to do with reality. They portend nothing but were useful tools of neurotic manipulation. I realized the “end times” was an imaginary concoction absent factual support. Eventually I realized the Adventist religion was constructed on a false interpretation of prophecy [there are no correct ones for seeing in the future], the center of which was the Second Advent and its possible timing. So, I adopted the attitude that I don’t care what he might be doing, if anything, or even if he comes back. There isn’t one plausible shred of evidence he is on his way.
The word “lies” is a tough one. I have chosen that word because what I was told wasn’t true. That’s what a lie is. I’m not accusing well-meaning people in my past of being purposeful liars. They were passing on the deception they thought was true because the church said it was.
Stephen, you haven’t presented one fact, date, time law enacted, place to enforce your proposition of current fulfillment of prophecy predicted in GC. Here’s a proposal of what it might look like: “Sept 1, 2015, Montgomery County Courthouse, State of Florida, Section 32 of the penal code was passed mandating all Wallmarts to close from Sunset to sunset every Sunday starting on October 1, 2015, and every one after that. Thanks to the Greater Miami Diocese of the Catholic church and Cardinal Joseph for expediting this action in honor of establishing a day of worship for the good of the community.”
You accuse me of lollygagging. I am looking for specifics of any kind.
The rabid fixation on the second coming by SDA’s has nothing to do with “salvation,” but with inability to extract itself from the embarrassment of a prophecy morphed to myth. Your recycling of imaginary ancient “fulfillments” as new evidence shows the desperation of proving a myth. Try your best, feed me old stuff, call it new. Your “precisely fulfilled prophecy” is nothing but a rehash of those old lies.
Christ doesn’t “need” to return except to bail out Adventist eschatology. He doesn’t seem to care.
Bugs, please refer to (the second paragraph particularly) of what I posted to your attention (above) which is time stamped as https://atoday.org/a-proposed-letter-of-apology-to-pope-francis-from-the-president-of-the-general-conference-of-seventh-day-adventists.html#comment-92008 (September 21, 2015 at 11:24pm).
Therein is a specific prediction—that churches, particularly Protestant churches here in our country, will seek the aid of civil power to enforce their dogmas—that has been and is being precisely fulfilled…unless of course you deny that any such entities or such efforts exist for their stated purposes and missions.
But let’s make it even easier for you. Here are a couple of statements of fact from GC that have certainly come to pass: “Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel’s message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been–the defender of religious freedom.”
Are you seriously trying to tell me that this hasn’t happened, and/or isn’t happening?
I don’t know how I could be so be so blind! I’m literally overwhelmed by this powerful, overwhelming, massive presentation of evidence supporting GC’s clearly defined fulfillment-in-progress prediction explicitly outlined.
I’m totally embarrassed by my inbred denial bias and the fool my anti GC statement has made of me. I wasn’t lied to after all by family and friends. The devil blinded my eyes and hardened my heart to stone and stole my microscopic vision so I couldn’t see what you see, Stephen. Since I can’t recover what that dastardly devil stole (he won’t return it unless I trade in my soul, which I nearly already did) I must now rely on your investigative services to update me continuously (like MS is doing with Win 10) so I can follow the enactment of the GC prediction to the end of the world, hopefully my time. Are you up for it?
Anyway this forum is arriving at the beasts mark, you and I are kaput on this encounter, me thinks. I’m offering my half of a philos hug, a smile, and look to rest up for our next conversation. You are a worthy and patient dialoger, I have enjoyed every exchange. I wish to depart in conciliation!
Go Great Controversy!
‘ YOUR HOLINESS? ” What’s wrong with Ted ?
One is Holy, The Lord and Savior Jezus Christ !!!!!
The pope is a blasfemist; the Roman Catholic System is the Beast according to Revelation.
Apologize to this guy? Come one. This is the beginning of the end brethern and we must beware that we all must stand like Caleb and Juzua, Esther and Ruth.
The Only One that is holy is de Almighty Father in the heavens and Jezus the Christ!!!! No one else in the Universe.
A Proposed Letter of Apology to Pope Francis from the GC President? who in specific proposed it? Give us the link from the GC of this proposal letter
The Preotestants are asleep. They don’t no their history.Time will tell.
America was a shelter to all who had to fled in the middle-ages for this same system. We were a Protestant land . But now: we became prostituties . We say farewell to Jezus and adoring a man.
In about 10 years we will see what is going te happen a for many it will be to late. May the God of the heavens keep us under His wings for this blasfemist.
The Catholic Church continues to be a primary source of conversions to Adventism, most of whom have come to our doors out of a desire for something better, something more biblical, that follows Jesus’ teachings and personality more completely.
In today’s world little if anything is said in effective evangelism against other denominations specifically; rather, we preach Jesus Christ who offers something better than the confusion of Babylon. The Three Angels’ messages in today’s world is done with grace and winsomeness; not because confrontation is wrong, but because confrontation is very ineffective in winning a neighbor.
I have interviewed countless Adventists who have come out of Catholicism, and there is an almost-unanimous testimony that denunciation of the Pope in advertising and early sessions of the meetings would have driven them away from the Truth. It was the gentleness of Jesus displayed by Adventists in teaching from the Bible that won their continued interest, and their decision to be baptized.
When we open the word of God, the book itself proclaims the error of confused, beastly Christianity. The Spirit of God will reveal these things if we imitate the manner of Jesus.
How instructive that new editions of the Great Controversy have progressively diminished attacks on the papacy. These changes were inspired, not made out of editorial caprice, as a way of more effectively entering into dialogue with souls bound for the Kingdom.
As a convert to Adventism who was born and raised Catholic (and even once considered becoming a priest) I want to say I am grateful for the Great Controversy and the unvarnished truth it contains regarding the history and character of the Catholic church.
It led me down of a path of research and personal study which not only confirmed everything it says about the Catholic church but led me to God’s remnant church. If not for that book I would not be Adventist today.
Ed,
I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that you are (understandably) doing your best to clean up after your esteemed colleague on this thread; and to interpret or spin, if you will, what he may have meant to accomplish in a kinder and gentler tone than perhaps your colleague is either willing or capable to offer at this point.
I can tell you that won’t work because the manner of distribution of the 700,000 by (bulk mail) is not any more confrontational than the envelopes of coupons we get in the mail from direct mail advertisers. And the nature of a book as lengthy as GC is such that the Scriptural and historical case is made, and the Protestant predicate is sufficiently established, well before the most politically incorrect information is communicated.
So this boils down to the content of that politically incorrect information; and whether we in fact believe it to be important enough to disseminate in 2015, or not—which is to say, whether or not we believe it to be relevant, or even true (in 2015).
As I say, there are two camps.
Are new Adventist churches being built and old ones enlarged in Philadelphia in anticipation of explosive growth from the flood of awe-stricken believers demanding membership and baptism? Or even the remolding of the splinter group church behind this plan? What welcoming committees are being created to receive the hoard? Or even ten “precious souls”?
I didn’t think so.
This has nothing to do with bringing in members. It has everything to do with a sicko outlook that “We will pass our Three Angels, pure, exclusive, Adventist truth past souls (aka swine), they will spew on it, and it will make us feel good that we have the Truth, and they have rejected it. Money well spent!”
I know, that’s inflammatory. But when all track records apparently reveal little or no increase in membership from previous broadcasts of this book, why is it still being done? Someone quench my fire with a better explanation.
If Erv’s proposed letter was mailed, at least the pope might learn the corporate name of Seventh-day Adventist (His Holiness probably had a nice relationship with local Adventist in Argentina) and he could send a papal message to Catholics in Philly forbidding them to read this book, which would insure a few more would read it! Maybe one church then could add a pew!
In my comments here I have endeavored to share from my own experiences the folly of pointedly condemning the behavior of specific religious individuals, especially during religious high days or at times of evangelistic outreach. Ellen White herself authorized several editions of her own material, in a number of different versions of The Great Controversy, each with diminishing sallies against the Papacy. I value Ellen White’s counsel and example, and I believe that in the case of Dr. Taylor’s piece, he succeeded in drawing attention to the situation in Philadelphia, where the citizenry by and large looks negatively on agencies that disparage their guests of honor.
This was a most inauspicious time and way to reach out to the City of Philadelphia, which remembers well the travails it has experienced in the past with Adventist public servants….
It’s a wonderful thing to note the uncanny talents invested in commenters who simply by reading a few paragraphs, are able to divine the secrets of the writer’s soul. Unfortunately the Lord passed me by in allocating this gift…
There is not one single iota in G.C. that aids in one’s salvation. The Bible has been sufficient for 2,000 years. combined with loving Christians to convert hearts.
Those who are converted (how many?) from reading G.C. also are more anxious and worried about last day events than in loving consideration of their neighbors.
How many Adventists would be convinced of Roman Catholicism if it were promoted as antagonistic to Sabbath observers?
Yes, the RCC has a history of persecuting Christians; but the verses in Revelation refer to the persecution of Christians by the Roman rulers, not the church. The RCC also killed thousands of Muslims. They have been an equal opportunity persecutor IN THE PAST! How long ago has persecution occurred under the RCC? The SdA church cannot continue to worry and write about persecutions as if they were recent. It was hundreds of years in the past.
As you know Elaine, I’m not bashful about telling you what I think and believe, or why. I seldom offer quotes or cite Ellen White as on this site particularly I don’t think that is always appropriate. However in this instance, I do believe it to be appropriate, as it may surprise you to some extent.
With regard to Sunday observance (note, I did not say Sunday worship) I concur with Ellen White: “But Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath; and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before Him… And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive “the mark of the beast.”
The most fearful threatening ever addressed to mortals is contained in the third angel’s message.” GC 449
In other words, I do not believe that as we speak Sunday observance is a test for those who do not know that “the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God,” or that Jesus is “Lord, even of the Sabbath.” And I do believe that it is NOT until they are brought to or forced to choose between obeying God, or obeying man, in full knowledge of which is which, will anyone receive the “mark of the beast.”
It’s not important—unless you think it is—for us to get into a back and forth again about the Sabbath. I just thought it appropriate now to share something that I don’t believe I have previously shared.
Elaine,
You wrote: “Yes, the RCC has a history of persecuting Christians; but the verses in Revelation refer to the persecution of Christians by the Roman rulers, not the church.”
Which verses in Revelation refer to Roman rulers?
I have always believed that the Bible alone provides ample Truth to inform a person’s decision to claim His salvation.
What the Great Controversy provides is a “rallying narrative” that challenges the Church to remain observant and keep the topic of the Second Coming exceedingly high in our hierarchy of values, as a people. Apparently the Church through the years has had a tendency to “forget about the 2nd Coming and just let the Lord take care of those kinds of things” and both Peter and Paul implore their readers not to cast aside their belief in a soon-coming Christ.
Because of the continuing delay, certainly the Great Controversy book or something similar to it is needed in today’s Church to keep the fires of the Second Coming alive and warm. The Book of Revelation appears to have served much the same purpose as the Great Controversy, in earlier days of the Church.
The Bible says in Roman 1 v 16: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile”. The author of this letter and whoever approved it are ashamed of the gospel. When Jesus will come back He will tell them :
“Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
May you not be part of that group brothers and sisters, may you not be an instrument used by the devil, you still have time to repent!
What is the Gospel of Christ?
Ervin Taylor, you are a shame for the human race and a blasphemy for the name of God.
Claudio,
What a perfect representation of Christian charity!
“”He that hateth his brother is guilty of murder.”
Dear Ervin, why in the world are you an SDA? You play football in a tennis game. It must be painful to you to be part of this movement, especially these days when the prophecies of Daniel, Revelation, and Ellen White are being fulfilled in a most astonishing way. Everything in your article tells that your heart is not in this movement. We can discuss whether it was strategically correct, or useful, to mass distribute the GC, but to addressing the blasphemous pope your holiness disqualifies you to be part of this movement. You have not offended me but Jesus Christ who died on the cross to deliver us from Satan’s power and his vicar. If I was the president of the GC I would have sent a letter to you, not the pope, with an ultimatum: Either you repent from your insane suggestion, or, you confess that it was just a joke, or you leave our movement, for your own sake and for the success of God’s work in the future.
Dear Salja, I would love to hear why you are an SDA? How, exactly, do your beliefs differ from Ervin’s?
I am asking this from the perspective of someone who used to be SDA, but am no longer.
Thank you for asking,
Im a SDA because SDA is the only serious Christian movement proclaiming and believing the Three Angels Messages in the World today.
Are you a Jesuit Mr. Ervin? I guess you won’t be able to answer this question… Why do you even call yourself an Adventist if you classify Adventist Theology as you do? Who gave you the authority to do it? Do you really believe you are inspired by God and Ellen G. White was mistaken?
Hello brethren,
Can you please tell me who Ervin Taylor is?
Is he an Adventist? If yes,is he a high ranking profile member of our movement?
Also, is the letter sent or it is just drafted and has not be sent?
Please help me address this questions above?
Thank you.
Ervin Taylor, Ph.D., is professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California, Riverside. He is also a long-time supporter, executive publisher, and contributor to the “progressive” journal Adventist Today.
He is also a strong supporter of theistic evolution theory.
“The words “in six days . .” were added . . without
mention of how long ago that happened (Ervin Taylor, “Adventist Creationism in the 21st Century: Funda-
mentalist or Constructive?” Adventist Today, 11:4,
2003, p. 18.
“The framers of this statement wisely did not go
beyond the words of the biblical affirmation, to define
what exactly ‘six days’ signified” (Ervin Taylor, “A Non-
negotiable Fundamental Truth?” Adventist Today,15:5, September/October 2007, p. 26.)
A lot of folks seem utterly confused by Ervin’s “proposed letter.” Hopefully this will help to set the record straight: THE “PROPOSED LETTER” IS NOT REAL. IT WAS NOT SENT. IT WAS NOT DRAFTED BY THE GC. It is simply a parody or parable designed to generate discussion as to whether the distribution of the Great Controversy in Philadelphia was the right thing to do; whether it is consistent with Christian courtesy and respect for our neighbor.
And for those who keep calling Dr. Ervin a “Jesuit,” HE IS NOT A JESUIT. He is a faithful Adventist from Loma Linda. Ervin Taylor, Ph.D., is professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California, Riverside. He is also a long-time supporter, executive publisher, and contributor to Adventist Today, and current member of the Adventist Today Foundation Governing Board.
I’m sorry to say this, but some of the commenters here seem to have an IQ lower than plant life, because they cannot distinguish between a real letter and a proposed letter–proposed and drafted by the author of this opinion piece (as a means of expressing his opinion about the oddly-timed distribution of the book), and clearly labeled in the headline.
It is important to read an article before commenting on it. It is also important to discuss the point it was intended to make, rather than attacking the author.
Thank you for making things straight, what then in Ervin’s article was serious and what was a parody? E.g., what about his distorted analysis of the Great Controversy, was that parody or reality?
“I’m sorry to say this, but some of the commenters here seem to have an IQ lower than plant life, because they cannot distinguish between a real letter and a proposed letter–proposed and drafted by the author of this opinion piece (as a means of expressing his opinion about the oddly-timed distribution of the book), and clearly labeled in the headline.”
This is rude and inappropriate. Readers of this Opinion column and the comments, from other parts of the world, and whose native language might not be English, should not be denigrated for their misunderstanding.
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.”
When we reproach those who honestly do not understand something as we do, for whatever reasons, whose spirit are we displaying? According to Paul this is not the generous Spirit of God. Compared to God even the brightest humans are complete dullards. And yet Jesus emptied all heaven on our behalf.
Mea culpa. I indulged in what I thought was a humorous turn of phrase (it’s the punchline from an old joke). I am sorry that it came across as rude. I apologize.
It is so obvious that some of the recent comments here indicate that the “preamble” was read, but the body of this thread was passed over; so if souls aren’t familiar with the give and take of the participating respondents here they have missed the fact this was a farce from the beginning, and was not, repeat “NOT” an actual letter sent to the pope. i understand also that some commenting may not be able to ethnically understand the North American idiom, so as to misunderstand the actual humour intended. Another thread please.
May I express my appreciation to the many of you who took the time to write their reactions to this opinion piece—with the possible exception of those who were sure that the author is an agent of Satan. (By the way, I’m informed that a number of Old Testament scholars have suggested that the original idea of Satan in the Old Testament—for example, in Job—is as Ha-Satan, “The Adversary” in that he was originally conceived of as a kind of cosmic ”prosecuting attorney” in the heavenly court. Satan as a representation of or incarnation of evil came later in Hebrew/Jewish thought. The idea of associating Satan with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was picked up by several New Testament writers and then was elaborated on by several early Christian Church fathers. )
It would appear that that this is the largest number of comments on a single article in the history of the AT—now over 500. Why did this particular expression of opinion generate such traffic? One suggestion is that, as some comments have noted, this piece hit a raw nerve in the certain parts of the Adventist body politic. One question is the precise nature of that “raw nerve.” That sounds like a subject for a future opinion piece.
In the meantime, perhaps some of us may wish to take a deep breath and move on while, if one is so inclined, reflecting on what the meaning of the reactions to this opinion piece may or may not have informed us about several aspects of some parts of contemporary Adventism.
Congratulations on a brilliant piece of writing Erv, it deserves its place as the AT all-time response record holder. Moving on will be difficult. For this reason, the SDA fascination with all things popish. Il papa at once both fascinates and terrifies. THis meme is buried deep in the Adventist psyche and will not go away anytime soon. The book Great Controversy summarises this meme like no other. Here is why:
First part: history of the modern world is shown as one of the evil dominance of a rapacious and powerful supreme ruler, the Pope. Vicarious Filii Dei = 666. Incarnation of Evil.
Second part: Novel interpretation of Dan 8.13,14 leads to (erroneous) Investigative judgement teaching. This teaching demands obedience to the Law, ie, ten commandments. Supreme of which is the 4th, Sabbath command. Keeping Law builds character in conformity to that of the Lawgiver, with help from the Mediator Jesus. One day, Jesus will no longer be able to help, you will have to stand before God perfectly on your own.
Third part: At that point, the previously-proven Evil known as RC Church will again unleash its anger against those who defy its authority to change God’s law. Those who successfully resist the evil one will be caught up in the clouds.
Fourth part: More motivation to keep the Law… after the Holy City returns to earth, God has unfinished business with everyone who throughout earth’s history failed to keep those Laws. ‘Wake up people…. its time to…
Cont…
‘Wake up people, …. it time to die…. Burn baby burn!’ (Is this really necessary? I mean, this particular interpretation of these symbolic passages? It is utterly inconsistent with the rest of the story.)
There are terrors on all sides, for those inflicted with this kind of thinking. Fear is for most people a greater motivator than its opposite, Love. Fear of the Pope, fear of God, fear of eternal death, fear of hellfire…. fear on all sides.
This is why SDAs are so desperately, hyperacutely tuned into all things Popish.
Remember just one thing Adventist friends: LOVE is the fulfilling of the Law. Rom 13.10
There should be far less worry about coming papal power than the dictatorial policy of the G.C. leadership.
I find Pope Francis much more compassionate, forgiving, and understanding of where people live today than the present G.C. leaders with their authoritarian dictates.
What is going on. It is so sad to hear such a news. This kind of action by the Remnant Publications should have been supported and encouraged and appreciated.
Encourage and appreciate what they’ve done? Since God’s instruction through Ellen White was for the books to be personally delivered to people who were interested, why do you endorse disobeying God?
Almost 600 comments, and as Ervin points out this says something about our interests and priorities as a group of bloggers to this magazine Adventist Today.
“An educated person is one who has learned that information almost always turns out to be at best incomplete and very often false, misleading, fictitious, mendacious – just dead wrong.” – Russell Baker
While impartial information may not exist, we can still choose to seek a balanced education through an inquisitive disposition. In the end, perhaps the brightest sign of hope is our ability to recognize our own ignorance. As they say, “awareness is the first step.”
The second is making amends.
Of course, it’s ignorant to think that we won’t temporarily find ourselves entering the uninformed or the misinformed groups, but if you’re reading this AT thread, permanent occupancy is a choice. The sobering reality is that only we can refute our own ignorance. No law, mandate, or educational system can instill the sense of self-perception and humility that is necessary to save us from ourselves (both on a personal level and a global scale).
Brother Taylor’s pretend letter from Brother Wilson to the Pope stirred almost 600 responses. In comparison the AT story about an ADRA Refugeee Center Operating in Belgrade, Serbia, only 3 comments. Another story about Religious Liberty only got 1 response.
Something is skewed here in priorities. It was only a fake letter…chill!
•
How can this be,if the book is that bad or dangerous,why have them in the book and bible house selling them to people,isn’t it for them to read and share,or to have it framed and place on the wall inside of your house?.We have to wonder what is becoming of our denomination;it seems we have lost our special peculiarity over the centuries,because of so many ccompromise that leads to apostasy we are becoming none subscript like the beast of Daniel 7:7; Egw.was very much inspired when she wrote in the book 1sm.under the caption THE Foundation Of Our Faith p.204 3rd.p. It reads thus, the principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church would be discarded. Our region would be changed. The foundation principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established.Books of a new order would be written. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it.Let us not sleep as as do others,I’m calling on the watchmen on the walls of Zion to rise to the occasion.
Here and now this 18th century prediction is being fulfilled before your very eyes, by some who write on this web site.
But do not for one minute believe this represents the mainstream of the SDA Church.
Proverbs 21:8 and Matthew 7:16 and 2 Peter 3 come to mind . . .
Predictions made two millennia ago also are being fulfilled before your very eyes. It is not just Ellen being scoffed at.
Stop misleading God’s faithful servant Ervin. Did you lack what to post?
Mr. Ervin. Its time to pray and ask God for forgiveness for insulting his last prophet (Ellen White) Again its better if you ca withdraw your proposed apology and do it on your own self and stop dragging the entire church. Meanwhile true Adventist should remain vigilant. Jesus is even at the door.
I am in agreement with some in here; it is time to move on. There are other more important articles that do deserve our attention, as Same Geli (I think?) pointed out. We/I have been to engrossed in this whole back and forth.
I learned quite a few things from engaging in/observing this thread.
Mr. Foster’s posit of the two camps rings true today, as it has always been. And the difference in camps has always been concerning the correct worship of the Only True God (of Truth).
In the beggining, God specified how He wanted to be worshiped, Cain said no… He must have thought, “God is also love, surely He’ll understand that it is more practical for me to bring Him fruits and veggies, even though He hasn’t asked for that… Surely He’ll be grateful enough because I am worshiping Him… He’ll accept my fruits and veggies, because, why not?! What matters is that I worship Him (spirituality), not how(religiosity)… He loves me as I am :)”
We all know how that story ended. Henceafter, the Bible is filled with the stories of the two camps, playing out in different scenarios. The battle’s allways been over how to worship and belief.
I also learned that I shouldn’t waste my time, and the time of others, going back and forth defending Truth. It is useless. Truth doesn’t need me to defend Him. It can stand, it has always stood, on His own. After all, SDAs are not the only ones who identify the false system of worship as the papacy…
SDAs (especifically EGW believeing SDAs), are not the only ones to recognize there will be a Sunday law, or that Jesus will return in the clouds to take us home.
Trough this article, I was able to confirm that Truth is universal and eternal, and that Truth indeed does shape my belief, not the other way around.
Furthermore, I learned not to fall for bait, not to be baited. This article was bait, and we all bit and swallowed.
Our time should be used productively, getting to know God and His Word. Praying, studying, showing love to others and fullfilling Christ’s command to preach His Gospel, through whatever means possible (be it mass mailings, canvassing, Bible studies, etc).
I was able to observe the haughtiness displayed by those who hide behind their academic accomplishments to look down on others.
A PhD told us that Satan was later linked with the serpent in Eden.
An Mdiv told us that God does not exist, but just in case He does, He must love us all and accept us exactly as we are, w/o changing us, and that Him, who is Truths, adapts to us, not the other way around.
Yet another one who has been alive for 3 score + years told those of us who had a hard time picking up “satire” that their IQ’s were as low as a Jehova’s Witness IQ…
In my 30 years of life, this is the first time I ever hear that Jehova’s Witnesses are the poster denomination for iliteracy…
Their degree of condecesnsion and arrogance is quite alarming…
This Mdiv has never said “God doesn’t exist.” Even Superguy exists, the “god” created in man’s image and worshiped. He looks like a duck, quacks like one, so he must be one. In this case he looks like crotchety grandpa, is emotional, has allowed billions of “sinners” to die over the eons because of Adam and Eve, enjoys blood sports (animal sacrifices, crucifixion), has favorites, is reclusive, is employed in a heavenly church, is fickle with prayer, involved in a war (I read it in the GC), forgets appointments, plays dice with human race via laws of probability of deadly, catastrophic, cosmic events, Sounds like a cobbled up version of us. God by committee. Quack quack! Most Christians worship this one in fear, not aware they are worshiping a version of themselves.
I’ve never had a granddad, but if he was like that, I wouldn’t like him either. I like Jesus version. Simple. God is love. That’s all there is to the un-human version. Can’t be visualized, anthropomorphized. Just experienced.
Bugs, you didn’t have a granddad? Well, I can top that. I never had a mother!
Never had a dad, either! Yes I had all three, just had no relationship with two of them. One granddad was killed win I was six months old, the other lived far away, never saw him and he died when I was about six.
You know what I meant! Didn’t you? Your humor is refreshing, but I think you as a motherless child must be hiding something either sinister or divine! Maybe Earl, our 900 year old contributor, going rogue. Your name is a clue. Perhaps you are an alien, an outer-space one! If so, we could use some extra-terrestrial input on this forum!
No one mentioned Jehova’s Witnesses having a low IQ. I search this entire page and found no reference to them except in your comment, Orion.
You are correct, Mr. Wesley. She did not use the letters “IQ” when referencing Jehova’s Witnessess. She just implied they have an inferior educational level, that is all.
“Judging from the majority of comments, they are indicative of the IQ of those who wrote, misunderstanding satire.
We should hope that they don’t represent the majority of Adventists. If so, it is most disheartening and discouraging for the church’s future. But then, we got a good glimpse at S.A. of the majority.
Sadly, some reflect the educational level of the JW’s.”
Sadly, both camps will die believing they/we are right, both camps will always believe that the other camp doesn’t know a thing. God (The Godhead – wich includes Christ – alone is Truth).
Although I specifically identify with one of the two camps, I also understand that Truth cannot possible lie within one camp, to the exclusion of the other one. It has to lay, balanced, in the middle; outstreaching its arms of mercy to welcome all who are willing to come in from one extreme to the next, from one camp to the other.
May God have mercy on me, and on us all, and may we truly be able to move on.
Seventh-day Adventists, it is past time for you to stop worrying about the Second Advent. You have nothing to do with it. He will or won’t return. The angst, mental stress, worry, bile verging on hatred, displayed by a segment of responders herein violates every rule of good health. The Adventist dream, portrayed in GC, of gaining the spotlight, as the central end time participant is over.
Your church is in decline. It can’t be saved by shrill railing more loudly via GC the evils of the Papacy. The sins of Catholicism is irrelevant, a foot note in history. No one cares, no one is attracted to a masochistic church with nothing but a message of paranoia.
And supposing the impossible occurs and your predictions, worst fears materialize? Does your anticipatory anxiety gain you anything? If so, what? Likely a quicker than necessary death from “natural” causes.
Yes, dreams die hard, stressed people die easy.
Jesus said the birds don’t worry. Save your church and yourself. Adopt that outlook. Chirp chirp.
I always enjoy your comments, Larry. You have some good advice. But I don’t understand how you are able to be here and write comments when you said that you never had a grandfather. I guess it shouldn’t be too much of a mystery, though, since I never had a mother–and I still exist.
See my answer a couple of posts above. You are faster than a speeding bullet. That may be a clue to your identity. Watch out for kryptonite! There’s a bunch spread around here! Earl has some in stock! Check him out below!
Solace is mine!!!! Freedom from fear is mine. i rest in the knowledge that JESUS is mine. Praise the LIVING GOD, He is mine. Nothing in this Cosmos can come between me and my Lord for i am different from all other living things. i am aware of my being, a breathing, thinking, being, different from all other living forms, that are beneath me in the physical mental, and spiritual being. i am aware of everything important to me, of everything around me 360 degrees, UP-DOWN-NORTH-SOUTH-EAST-WEST-SPHERAL. This spiritual entity, capable of transformation to a celestial being is possible because i know it can. This intelligence was not given to last a short Earthly season, but to live and expand in knowledge and wisdom forever. This Earthly existence is but a interlude in my immortal transition to the eternity of the infinity of endless SPIRITUAL growth. Man was not born to live a short Earthly session, but BORN AGAIN, to reach to heavenly places, to be involved in assignments of his ETERNAL MASTER DESIGNER, in the outer reaches of ever expanding universes without end. You can say i’ve made the MASTER DESIGNER in my image, but no, the Master has given us life here on Earth to train us in the ultimate science of being that is eternal, the act of the totallity of LOVE. The COSMOS is LOVE. It is the SPIRITUAL
BEINGS OF LOVE that are the eternal inhabitants of Space. The features and actions of the COSMOS may appear to be chaos, but incomplete to the human conception.
OK Earl, you are hereby assigned to Glacier View for Glacier staring therapy which has helped me immensely. I’m pretty sure I understated your age at 900 in a post above since it would take much longer to gain and impart the wisdom of your post!
I think we pretty much agree about God and love, but I just haven’t lived nearly long enough to assemble your plethora of thoughts and words!
But Earl, where are the heavenly mansions on streets of gold? surely you’d like one or two of those? Surely heaven can’t be the immaterial nirvana you so beautifully describe? Please tell me I’ll get at least a small place on the via Aureum?
This thread, on this topic has become self-perpetuating!
I strongly urge persons who care to notice the BREAKING GOOD NEWS of what Norway SDA Conference just voted for equality and inclusion of women in ministry. This piece of hope and good example is what really matters now.
Between ordaining and not ordaining women in ministry we have found a third solution that maintains unity and is just in this debate. This Solomonic solution of doing away with ordination for anyone is brilliant.
The church needs further discussion and reaction from ALL on this new solution. To continue ad infinitum this pointless thread on what Ervin meant, did not mean, what we understood, or if Wilson wrote, did not write, might have written, can’t write etc. is really foolish.
Let’s rejoice about the actual letter Brother Wilson will soon ponder writing to the conference in Norway…
Ervin, since you are good at these imaginary letters why don’t you submit a couple of suggestions to you know who and you know the address already…
A final suggestion on this thread: When the number of comments gets to 666, those administering the AT web site close off further comments on this thread. Shalom.
Stopping at 665 would be a wise defensive move. Wouldn’t hurt to be especially careful. Once that 666 level is reached Lucifer’s almost indelible imprimatur could be slapped on this entire forum, leaving one last removal possibility, and in the hands of the most skilled exorcists the Catholic Church has. That double whammy must be avoided at all costs.
Just a word to the wise.
Ervin,
How would the number of comments on this thread compare with other articles, had Atoday left the “reply box” at 3000 characters, rather than reducing it to 1500 characters?
They might be doubling-up due to people needing more space?
On that note, I better find the door, temporarily. Hate to be here to see the carnage.
Cheers.
Right on the money.
It is not unusual for AToday to limit the post size to 1500 characters. I’ve seen that on other articles as well. I believe the idea is to encourage us to be concise in our comments–not to encourage multiple chain posts. In fact, that is against the published rules of this forum.
Candy,
True. But when dealing with complex issues how would you define “concise”?
A larger comment limit would do just that: Keep from multiple posting.
Besides, I’m not an expert in the English language; I need three words to make my point, compared to someone who uses one.
Peace.
Erv found a home at AToday.
Ervin has already had a “home” here at AToday for a long time. He is a member of the foundation board of directors, and is a frequent contributor of opinion pieces. This is not a one-shot wonder from a stranger or novice.
Did anyone else notice David Newman’s comment here recently that the senior pastor of an 850 congregation in the Columbia Union has turned in his ordination paper and there are now three non-ordained pastors in that church.
Can someone find this and make it available again?
Elaine,
You wrote earlier: “If even some of these comments represent members’ thinking, they have swallowed hook, line, and sinker, of the bait furnished by the EGW teachings they adopted.”
I have never read EGW, other than snippets through this web site and on other web sites.
One question: Have you read the “Great Controversy” book?
Read this paragraph Daniel, and tell me if this is a statement consistent with the NT gospel? Its from Great Controversy p 425:
“Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.
When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing.”
To me, this summarises the whole book. From you with fresh eyes, how does it read?
Serge,
That’s not a short question and would take much analysis to respond with clarity. Nevertheless, here goes:
The intercessory work of Christ will continue and does not end until He appears. Having said that; note, Heb. 9:13-16.
“Christ in you” declares He will always be with us. As Jesus said, when praying to His Father, “….21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” John 17:20, 21.
“Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.” Firstly, what is here referred to as the “grace of God”? Without the Holy Spirit in us we wouldn’t even know what evil was, let alone be “conquerors”.
No one can stand without Christ before God, because the “white robes” is the “righteousness of Jesus Christ”. Rev. 3:18. We must “put on Christ”. “their own diligent effort” can be none other than submitting to Christ so that “He lives and not I”.
The “investigative Judgment” makes no sense. God is all knowing, “investigates” no one. It is we who need investigating ourselves, to know our spiritually standing before God; and our hearts which need cleansing, not God’s Presence, which is Heaven itself.
Continued.
There is a small contradiction in this piece. If the “intercessory” work of Christ is in the “sanctuary above”, that is, Heaven, or God’s Presence, where “the sins of penitent believers are being removed”, what is this “putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth.”? Now that indicates either the “Heavenly Sanctuary” is with God’s people on earth, or there are two “Sanctuaries”. No doubt, I understand this to mean one and the same place. We are the temple of God. “…14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Heb. 9:13-16.
I think I have covered most points?
Cheers.
Thanks for your thoughts Daniel. It is a complex question, which is why SDAs and others have been arguing about it ever since it was written, and before. EGWs role was to ‘settle’ the argument.
Re two sanctuaries. Many Adventists concede there are two. But Church is only a symbol of the ‘real’ one in ‘heaven,’ which is a building with two chambers, one of which ‘God’ lives in, (God has a body, btw, and long flowing white beard) but where Jesus the high priest (also in human bodily form) went to join Him in 1844, so He could argue the case for each name as they came up. btw, Planet heaven is thought by some to be in our solar system, and is closely related to the constellation Orion. ‘The holy city will come down through that open space’ (in Orion, ie) see ‘Early Writings.’
So far from the NT teaching that Christ’s body is his church and temple, (as Hebrews say, ‘WE are His house)the SDA mind firmly fixes itself in outer space. Christ is thus, for SDAs, far, far away from his people, yet He promised to never leave them.
That said, It would appear from your answer, that you think that quote from the book GC does not accurately describe the true Gospel. EGW simply cannot be relied on to teach the true and complete Gospel.
Daniel,
FYI I have read G.C. It was in no way an original but many direct copies from books in her library which she denied ever having read, as “everything in her writing came straight from God.”
Many of the historical “facts” are erroneous. One, the claim that the Waldenses were faithful Sabbath keepers, when there is nothing in their history, according to its leaders today, that they ever observed the seventh day but always observed the first day of the week.
The Papal paranoia that she initiated is still in the Adventist DNA; the fear expressed is palpable.
Thank you for responding, Elaine.
I understand you disagree with most of what the “Great Controversy” book teaches; and it appears you’re not easily swayed by such contradictions. However, could her writings have influenced your departure from the SDA church and also possibly influenced your perception of Bible Truth?
The reason why I ask this is because I believe everything in life influences us all, in some way or another. And if there are “erroneous” and contrary teachings within EGW’s writings, then would not this be a warning for those seeking enlightenment from her writings to stay clear; seeing many now perceive her writings to be “God-inspired”?
Elaine, with regard to your statements about the past atrocities and persecutions performed by the RCC (since you brought it up), here’s more from The Great Controversy, 571-572 (and why the book is controversial): “The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High…”
“…It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers…
“…Instead of standing in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints, they are now, as it were, apologizing to Rome for their uncharitable opinion of her, begging pardon for their bigotry.
“A large class, even of those who look upon Romanism with no favor, apprehend little danger from her power and influence. Many urge that the intellectual and moral darkness prevailing during the Middle Ages favored the spread of her dogmas, superstitions, and oppression, and that the greater intelligence of modern times, the general diffusion of knowledge, and the increasing liberality in matters of religion forbid a revival of intolerance and tyranny.”
Doesn’t this sound familiar?
It sounds quite familiar, Mr. Foster, as evidenced by the papal bull issued, which will commence later this year (all who wish may find/read it).
In the bull, the pope calls for all to carry our the work of mercy which God commands us to do. It is quite beautifully stated, in my opion, and it is a fine reminder/call to make, in and of itself.
The only caveat, as usual, is that the mercy from God can be granted/dispenssed through “the church”… Once again, this power attemps to sit on God’s throne:
Oh, and they are still handing out indulgences, btw.
“14. The practice of pilgrimage has a special place in the Holy Year, because it represents the journey each of us makes in this life. Life itself is a pilgrimage, and the human being is a viator, a pilgrim travelling along the road, making his way to the desired destination. Similarly, to reach the Holy Door in Rome or in any other place in the world, everyone, each according to his or her ability, will have to make a pilgrimage. This will be a sign that mercy is also a goal to reach and requires dedication and sacrifice. May pilgrimage be an impetus to conversion: by crossing the threshold of the Holy Door, we will find the strength to embrace God’s mercy and dedicate ourselves to being merciful with others as the Father has been with us.
22. A Jubilee also entails the granting of indulgences. This practice will acquire an even more important meaning in the Holy Year of Mercy. God’s forgiveness knows no bounds. In the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God makes even more evident his love and its power to destroy all human sin. Reconciliation with God is made possible through the paschal mystery and the mediation of the Church. Thus God is always ready to forgive, and he never tires of forgiving in ways that are continually new and surprising. Nevertheless, all of us know well the experience of sin. We know that we are called to perfection (cf. Mt 5:48), yet we feel the heavy burden of sin. Though we feel…
“Thus God is always ready to forgive, and he never tires of forgiving in ways that are continually new and surprising.”
Interesting statement.
Is God’s forgiveness through Christ Jesus His Son becoming outdated and unfashionable?
“Reconciliation with God is made possible through the paschal mystery and the mediation of the Church… We priests have received the gift of the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins, and we are responsible for this..”
This statement, apparently, is still fashionable. The only problem is that reconciliation to God can only be made through Jesus Christ who died on the Cross for us. It can never ve made through any church, nor through any earthly priest.
I shared the above paragraph with Mr. Foster because it fittingly complements the quotes he shared. What the GC has said for a hundred years still stands, as evidenced by bull recently issued.
That is all.
I cut my own response. No Daniel, God’s forgiveness through Christ is never unfashionable, on the contrary; it must stand as a beautiful reminder throughout the ages.
I do not disagree with many sincere points brought about in the Bull. The thing is that the leader/s of the false system of worship continue to knowingly deceive their followers and the world.
Their doctrine is contrary to the Word of God; it is blasphemous.
Orion,
Yes, there are always points which one cannot disagree with; but the “blasphemous” doctrines spread throughout those better points are highly toxic for those ignorant of Bible Truth.
Orion,
In case you misread my reply: My first reply to you was not directing any error on your behalf; I was commenting on the deception behind the statement made within the papal bull.
Cheers.
You are correct, I totally misread your comment. I apologize for that!
Ervin Taylor should be fired. Any publication that has him working for them , including Adventist Today, should be boycotted by all conscious Seventh-day Adventist. We must not condone or allow such gross misrepresentation of our movement. And to allow him access to such platforms as Adventist Today to spew erroneous notions that gives the world a wrong view of our beliefs is blasphemeous.
That will fix the SOB and redeem the besmirched character of the helpless, weakling church and GC. And it makes you a hero! Clearly you know truth when you see it and you perfectly serve Superguy, the god created by us acts who like a crotchety, angry grandpa, who is totally PO’d at this SOB, so you are speaking for him, that helpless god who can’t speak for himself.
Your suggestion is DOA and your lack of a sense of humor, or love, raises my question if you heart might not be DOA.
I say this with tongue in cheek! I’m joking. Just lighten up a little. In humor there is no foul and no harm.
Being offended is your choice. Chose differently! You will last longer, maybe long enough to welcome Jesus driving the half a man sized cloud in the air?
PS I don’t know if Erv can actually be fired, not sure if is “hired.”
Fear not, Gerald, I think its mainly the unconscious SDAs who visit here it would appear (j/k folks).
But what this statement, ‘Ervin should be fired,’ does show is that the desire to burn people is ever-present in human nature. The RC church did this for many years to those who blasphemed their erroneous beliefs also.
Amen along with those NA leaders whi don’t like GC vote. They are related to Dathan and gang
Mr. Ervin Taylor I would like to point out that your opinion yours and you are free to have those opinions and express them. Now I have an opinion and I am free to express it.
Mr. Taylor do you even know what being a Seventh-Day Adventist means? I do not have a bunch of letters behind my name and in some circles that would mean my opinion does not matter. Allow me to tell you exactly what I think and mean about your article.
You must be an undercover Jesuit working for the Pope to print something like this. For you to say that we need to apologize for handing out a book that as an Adventist we believe is based on inspired truth by a prophet of God…Really! Do you have your head in the sand hoping that Jesus will not return?! Do you even believe in the SOP and the Bible???
Sir, I really suggest that you take time and get on your knees and pray for wisdom and intestinal fortitude. It is people like you that I ask myself why are you in the church spreading this garbage.
As for me and my house we will stand for Jesus and His soon return. We will not bow to a man or a church that teaches error and outright lies. We will tell people about God’s love in a respectful and loving manner like our example. But we will not back down from the truth.
Come to know your God Mr. Taylor because He is coming and you have nothing to be ashamed of sir.
Respectfully,
Joe Tacconelli
All this commotion over the Pope is interesting, when you consider that we SDAs have our own “pope” of sorts. If Ted Wilson were to write a letter to the Pope of Rome, it would be like one pope writing to another. The position of GC President is like an SDA Pope (and both of them are vehemently against Women’s Ordination, and have taken an autocratic leadership style on that issue). Both “popes” are viewed as nearly infallible. The whole SDA hierarchy is like the Catholic hierarchy. Division presidents are like Vatican-based Cardinals. Union presidents are like field-based Cardinals. Conference presidents are like archbishops. Conference area leaders are like bishops. Pastors are like priests. And the GC president is the Pope. The GC headquarters in Mary-land, is the Vatican, and tradition rules over the Bible. It is the GC papacy. It is ironic that we criticize the Roman Papacy so harshly, when the “GC papacy” is so much like it.
Oh Mary…. do you want to be post no. 666?
But, since you describe things so acutely, does your name betray ‘insider’ knowledge? If so, can you give us a list of all SDA Jesuits, past and present? How does one accurately identify a Jesuit hiding in the church?
I didn’t actually say there are any SDA Jesuits. But, come to think of it, you can see who is in the photo on the GC Papacy site. He and the first Jesuit Pope (Francis) think exactly alike regarding some issues, or at least one issue.
SP warns against people who cast THEIR thunderbird against church. You are with us OR you went Out because no doubt you were not of us
Its Yom Kippur friends. A jew-ex friend sent me this. I found it most interesting.
http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/holidays/yom-kippur-guide-for-the-perplexed-2015/2015/09/21/
Francis is not here only as a religious leader. The Pope is also head of state of Vatican City, a sovereign city-state entirely enclaved within the Italian capital city of Rome.
The Holy See is viewed as analogous to a sovereign state, having a centralized government called the Roman Curia with the Secretary of State as its chief administrator and various departments essential to administration comparable to ministries and executive departments. It enters diplomatic relations with states, and has Vatican City as its sovereign territory.
Diplomatically, the Holy See acts and speaks for the whole church. It is also recognized by other subjects of international law as a sovereign entity, headed by the Pope, with which diplomatic relations can be maintained. The “Vatican City State” came into existence in 1929 because of the Lateran Treaty. The Holy See dates back to antiquity. Ambassadors are officially accredited not to the Vatican City State but to “the Holy See”, and Papal representatives to states and international organizations are recognized as representing the Holy See, not the Vatican City State.
The Pope deserves the same respect and courtesy as other world diplomatic leaders and heads of state–and probably more, since he is also a minister.
I am comment # 666!!! What an honor! Now you can close the comments as Ervin suggested.
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Jesus Christ, Matt. 24;12
1) Preaching the gospel in all the world, is a command; it shall be done.
2). The gospel shall be preached in all the world; even Muslim nations.
3). The gospel shall be preached; even where the pope is visiting.
Preaching the gospel ends with the return of Jesus. Therefore end time prophecy cannot be separated from the gospel, because the gospel is about the return of Jesus!
Anyone that teaches the gospel is unspoken kindness, that the gospel can only be conveyed “one-on-one”, that the gospel has nothing to do with end time prophecy, that Adventists shouldn’t be preaching the gospel in all the world are wrong!
Trying to get Jesus back is an enterprise with a long history. The common Adventist thread is he hasn’t returned because of human failure. Which leads me to two questions. Could you say that he will never return since humans will never do a good job of getting him here simply because they can’t? And my second, with modern radio and TV broadcasts of the Gospel always beamed twenty four hours per day, why doesn’t that count as a taking the Gospel to the world? That would free him up to return, so why hasn’t he.
It would seem to me that if humans are holding him up, there’s a sense in which we are more powerful than him.
I wanted to know if anyone has information that the letter has been delivered to pope
Yes, I have the info. I heard the pope stopped by GC headquarters today for a quick Pope-to-Pope visit, and he was hand-held a copy in case the mailed copy didn’t pass his secretary in Rome.
This is it…
A myth is a LIE. In this case there is no letter. It does not exist!. Ervin used the “pretend” letter as a metaphor, a literary device, to make a point. If you read his article he clearly said it was a “proposed”. Please add this myth to these five others famous myths: THESE ARE MYTHS, THEY ARE NOT TRUE!
1. Elvis is alive and living in the basement of the Oklahoma City SDA Church
2. Postum has real coffee in it
3. Toasted bread has less calories in it than untoasted bread
4. Five Second Rule Food that drops on the floor is safe to eat if you pick it up within five seconds. This is utter bunkum which should be obvious to most readers. If there are germs on the floor and the food lands on them, they will immediately stick to the food. Having said that, eating germs and dirt is not always a bad thing as it helps us to develop a robust immune system. I prefer to have a “how-tasty-is-it” rule: if it is something really tasty, it can sit there for ten minutes for all I care – I will still eat it.
5. Ervin Taylor will soon publish secret correspondence between him and the Pope where they exchanged recipes that Ervin has collected over many years after participating in countless number of Adventist church potlucks. The book will have a foreword by Doug Batchelor
I suppose my “information” of the Pope-to-Pope” visit falls in your lie, myth category! Prove it, Buster! Can’t you leave anything alone, anyway Erv’s letter does so exist, I read it myself.
Beg to differ, Sam. A true myth is not a lie. Your examples of myths fall into the category of ‘urban myth’ which are a form of myth but not true myth. Except no.5. That one seems reasonable. For a better appreciation of the role of myth in our lives, read anything by Joseph Campbell. Carl Jung also gives understanding on how myths/memes become incorporated into our collective consciousness. Think of all the SDA ‘myths’ which people believe but are statements of belief rather than history or fact.
Even your five quoted myths can be seen to hold an element of truth/belief inside the clearly unbelievable shell of the story.eg, myths re Elvis tell us of the powerful changes that came to society via music in the 60’s.
Elvis still lives as the figurehead of this movement. But as we who lived in those times die off, so will that myth. However, some myths survive the generations. These are the ones we tell our children over and over. Santa Claus being the most obvious. Creation ex nihilo in 7 periods of 24 hours 6,000 years ago is a myth which is still held by many. There are many myths which exert their effects, but we don’t even identify them as myth. I’m sure we can all think of some. Robert Johnson has retold the Classical myths of antiquity in Jungian terms which shows why they persist in our subconscious, for better or for worse.
Why does Ervin Taylor assumes a Adventist guise when he speaks openly present ideas which are in complete contradiction to everything central to the message given to the SDA church?
His words have made the 3 Angel’s Message of complete none-effect.
Secondly, why would the owners of Atoday.org allow such a piece to be posted? Does this not reveal their true stand as being anathema do our beloved movement? The angels are now weepings over this article.