A Letter to African Men
by Jack Hoehn
By Dr. Jack Hoehn, March 3, 2014
Abale,i
I have a message for you. I am speaking to Seventh-day Adventist African men about women. You have my permission to copy this letter and discuss it in your Sabbath Schools and Church Boards, and also with your mothers, your wives, and your daughters.
Figure 1 Adventist Girl in Mfuwe, Zambia
Your Divisions have taken a position that women are not to have positions of leadership in the Seventh-day Adventist church. They say women should not be allowed to preach in our churches. Some even claim that women should not even teach in our schools except to the youngest children. These same ones claim that men are always to have the leadership role and be the head. Women must always submit to men.
They claim that this is in the Bible, and it is. It is not only in the Bible, it is in history.
Egyptians mostly had male leaders (except Moses' foster mother, Hatshepsut, who was a female Pharaoh of course!). Romans had male leaders. Pagan Germans had male leaders. All great dictators were men—Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, Ian Smith, Shaka Zulu and Hendrick Verword.
Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, Ndebele, Tonga, Chewa, all had male leaders. (With a few exceptions, like South Africa’s Wild Cat People led by their fierce Queen Mantitisi).
Jesus only had male apostles. He only had white, Jewish, male, circumcised apostles.
The Popes are all male. Catholic Priests are all male.
And to the troublesome Ephesian church in AD 63, the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy about teachers of false doctrines in that church (teaching that Christians should not marry and have sex, supported by the teaching that since women are mothers and therefore are the “authors” or “originators” of men, they should rule over men).ii
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Paul tells Timothy, “They do not know what they are talking about!” (1Timothy 1:7)
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To bring back peace and quiet to the Ephesian church, in chapter 2 Paul gives Timothy rules to help restore order with those trouble makers, both male and female.
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In 1 Timothy 2:8 he says the men need to stop being angry and arguing.
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In 1 Timothy 2:12 he says the female false teachers (promoting what he later called, “godless myths and old wives tales”) should not be teaching that since women authored men they no longer had to be married to their husbands, and that they could rule over their husbands!
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No, he says using their own arguments, even though all men come from women (our mothers), the first woman in fact came from a man. So sit down ladies and be quiet and listen to the true Gospel. Stop arguing who is first.
So there you have it! Men rule. Women are under us. That should settle it, shouldn’t it?
Should We Take African Adventism Back to the so called “Glorious Past”?
Really? Do you really want your daughters to be uneducated servants or slaves for some man, who can take your daughter in marriage even if he is old and already has 4 or 5 other wives? Do we want to go back to polygamy? Should we begin to mutilate our daughters again? Do you only want your sons to have education? Do you want your wives to be uneducated; do you want your daughters to not go to school?
Do you want your church to not let women preach? Oh, I thought you joined the Seventh-day Adventist church, and you didn’t need to listen to the rules the Pope sets. Or am I wrong? Are the Pope’s ideas about who can preach in our churches our guide now? Did you ever hear of the woman named Ellen G. White? Did Adventists let Ellen G. White preach? (Yes, of course, many times.) Did God select her and pour out His Spirit on her ministry, including leading men to forgotten Bible truths?
So why can your mother, your wife, your daughter not preach if God calls her to do so? Are we Roman Catholics or are we Seventh-day Adventists? Are we Muslims to ask Mohamed who can preach in our churches? Will we ask ask our women to wear veils next?
What Would Jesus Say about Equality?
What would Jesus say about the fact that all the pagan nations of the earth have always had males rule over them? (see Luke 22:24-27)
“Then they began to argue if men or women would be the greatest among them. Jesus told them, “In this world the kings and great men lord it over their people, and they are called ‘Nkhosi or Nduna’ But among you it will be different. Those who are the greatest among you should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant. Who is more important, the men who sit at the table or the women who serve? Well in culture, the men who sit at the table, of course. But not here in my church! For I Jesus am among you as one who serves, just like the women do. So who do you think is the greatest?”
What would the Apostle Paul (who told the false teaching women in Ephesus to stop talking in church) say about the position of blacks and whites in the Adventist Church? What would the Apostle Paul say about having slaves in the Adventist Church? What would the Apostle Paul say about equality between men and women in the Adventist Church? You know what he would say.
“There is neither black nor white, slave nor slave owner, male nor female in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)
All Men Like to be Boss
White men, red men, yellow men, and black men all take their headship seriously. For thousands of years, our fallen cultures have taken the results of Eve’s fall—where women were placed subservient to men—far too seriously.
At one time Jewish men felt non-Jews shouldn’t join the Christian church, after all circumcision was in the Bible and these Gentiles were not circumcised. God told the early Christian Jews to ignore the Bible circumcision rules and open the gates to the Gentiles. The Bible permitted slavery; it tried to improve slavery by releasing slaves after 7 years of service, but it didn’t forbid slavery. But Christianity became the enemy of slave owners, and finally Christ stopped slavery, no matter what the Bible had permitted before. No Christian can buy or sell another human being today.
Figure 2 Chief Mayuni of the Mafwe by permission of Josie Borain
I was born in North America, where in the south of the USA in my childhood there were signs that said “Whites Only,” not only on movie theaters and restaurants, but on churches. I was in Southern Africa during apartheid and could not take my African friends into South African Restaurants. I drove through Zimbabwe when it was still Rhodesia, where African men and women could not vote for their governments. Do any of you really want to go back to discrimination based on national origins, on tribe, or race in the church? Then why would we want to discriminate between our boys and our girls?
What do You Wish for Your Daughters?
So now we come to equality of males and females in the African Seventh-day Adventist churches. If God called a woman to form this church as our Adventist prophetess, and if God now calls other women to preach and be pastors, can we men continue to forbid God’s call to our daughters? Dare we stand in God’s way when our Bibles say, Acts 2:7, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall preach, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.?” If God pours out a preaching spirit on your daughter, shouldn’t the church recognize that in ordination, just like it would your son?
Are men to always be the greatest, and are all leadership positions in the church reserved for men? Do you want your daughters to be subservient to male power and pride? Do you want your wives and mothers and daughters to go to another male for counseling and spiritual guidance? Do you think that male teachers, male policemen, male politicians, and male pastors should always be superior to women? Do you want your daughters to bow down to them and to serve them if they demand it?
I am a man like you. I have sons. But I also had a mother who was my spiritual priest in my childhood, a wife who excels me in spirituality.
Figure 3 Adventist Father with his daughter.
If I had daughters, I would tell them to join a church that teaches and practices that in Christ there is no black or white, no rich or poor, no male or female; that we are all equal before God.
I hope that church would be an Adventist church, world history or not, colonialism or not, African culture or not.
You do know, don’t you, that everything the Bible says does not literally apply to us today?
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Jesus used spit and mud to treat blindness. You are not permitted to do this now.
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God permitted Moses to make a provision for easy divorce. Jesus does not permit us to do so now.
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God permitted David to have 7 wives plus sexual consorts. Christen men are not permitted to do this now.
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Paul told the slave Onesimus to go back to his Christian slave master. Christians are not permitted to be slave masters now.
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The Bible does not forbid smoking. You may not smoke.
Truth is progressive. The Bible introduces truth, but the Bible does not end truth. The Bible doesn’t say ordain women to be pastors, but God is now calling women in many lands to be pastors, so should we not recognize that fact and accept God’s work by ordaining them just as we ordain men?
We need to move beyond what the Bible said to the trouble makers in the church at Ephesus or Corinth, to what God would say today to the churches all around the world, not just in Europe or America, but in Africa as well.
And no matter what we used to think, God’s message for today won’t be, “Men have to always stay in charge.” Women are capable and competent to be administrators, educators, doctors, politicians, and pastors, only custom and prejudice hold them back.
So tell your pastors and conference presidents, union officers, and university professors that you want them to study, pray, and think about it again. Just as Adventists have thrown off colonialism, nationalism, racialism in our church, we need to throw off gender discrimination in ministry.
And by the way, is the pastor, the conference president, the union president, the division president, the general conference president, the Head of the Church? We have One Head. All the rest of us—men and women—are merely servants of the Head. So to even speak of “male headship” is really strange language for anyone in the church that has Christ as our head. A female pastor would not be the head of the church any more than a male pastor is the head of a church. Christ remains the head of the church.
You do not have to wait for the Adventist church to vote, you can begin at home and in your local church to treat all the women in your own life with respect as equals. Help her with the household chores. Make financial decisions together. Let your sexual life be equally pleasing to both partners, and healthy for both. Educate your daughters, and let them know that they can be anything God calls them to be, just as your sons can.
“Rule” over your family as the sun “rules” over the day, and as the moon “rules” over the night,iii not with force and domination, but by warming, protecting, praising, and enabling all in your family to live happy, rewarding, peaceful lives. An Adventist man never ever beats a woman. An Adventist woman never has to submit to an unhealthy, unholy demand from a man. Of course she must submit in love to her husband, just as the husband in love must submit to his wife. Mutual submissioniv is God’s rule, but only in love, not in fear or by violence.
You and your brothers and sisters can decide in your local church that women and men will be equals in your church. Be sure young men and women are invited to church board meetings. Elect spiritually strong women elders. Men will not sit on the high seats in church while restricting women to the lower platform. That means that men can teach children in Sabbath Schools, and women can preach in the worship service. Men and women will never be the same, but they can be equals before God.
Thank you for listening to me.
Kea leboha, Zikhoma Kwambiri, Asanteniv
Salang hantle, Salane bwino, Pamoja sana.vi
Your Brother in Christ,
Jack
(Dr. John B. [Jack] Hoehn lives in the USA, but he was a child in Kenya, and a medical doctor in Lesotho and Zambia for 13 years. He has delivered over 500 African women of obstructed labors. He has worked with many fine African men, and many intelligent, hardworking, capable African women. He has been back to visit Africa 10 times in more recent years, and he maintains friendships with many African men and women. His sons were born or raised in Africa but taught to treat women as equals.)
[1] https://www.adventistarchives.org/brc-east-central-africa-division-presentation.pdf
[2] https://www.adventistarchives.org/brc-southern-africa-indian-ocean-division-presentation.pdf
i Abale = Brothers, Chewa.
ii Dr. Carl Cosserts key paper on what Paul’s letter to Timothy at the Ephesian church means is available on line as
https://www.adventistarchives.org/leadership-and-gender-in-the-ephesian-church-an-examination-of-1-timothy.pdf
iii Genesis 1:16 “And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.”
iv Ephesians 5:21. “Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ.”
v “Thank you all very much,” in Sesotho/Chewa/Swahili.
vi “Good bye,” (Literally remain or stay well at your place, Sesotho/Chewa, and We will walk closely together, Swahili)
Jack
Since I am an African man I will respond accordingly. I take exception to the condescending tone and the simplistic nature of your letter. I feel your letter is reeking with elitism and nuanced racism. You are way of base on a number of issues that I had to calm down before writing a response. Your leeter is based on a faulty hermeneutic and you expect us to take you seriously. You have basically accused us of being masogynists and I think you should apologise for that. Simply because I believe in the biblical hiearchy which prohibits women to serve in a pastoral capacity, you then accuse us of taking adventism to the glorious past where you incite others to believe that we want our women to be uneducated.
Contrary to your assertion that all past religions had only male leadership is a blatant lie! In fact upon closer examination, the Jewish religion is the only one that i can find that had only male priests.
Then you use the incorrect analogy of slavery, typical! Okay Maybe I am a little angry but this is because of the elitism and subtle racism of people like you who wrongly believe that the only reason I am anti ordination as an African is because I am mysogynistic. The fact that I have critically analysed both sides of the argument and made a choice is intolerable to you. I know you believe we a re backward and that is most unfortunate. Simply because you spent some time in Africa you think you have us allm figured out? well you don't and I think you should apologise to african men for you massive stereotypical letter.
Allow me to address the faulty hermenetic you employed.
In your letter you constantly set up strawmen arguments and employ false analogies. You have not appealed to my intellect but you have rather tried to emotionally blackmail us by suggesting that if we do not ordain women we are backward barbaric mysogynistic me. In conclusion as an african man, I reject your plea because of the condescending tone, use of simplistic generalisations and stereotypes and the faulty and erroneous principles contained therein.
Yours Faithfully
Tapiwa Mushaninga
Ellen White’s visions were the source of her pastoral ministry and she preached to hundreds of churches and the largest camp meetings, and the General conference sessions as a PREACHER, and she then behind the doors during business sessions led the men of the General Conference around like a shepherdess leads her sheep. Nothing in Adventism kept women from being ordained, except culture, and male pride and privilege.
I’m sorry for what you “feel” about my letter.
I just wish you were also equally sorry for what your mother, sisters, wife, and daughters “feel” when they are told that God has doomed them to perpetual subordination to you or any other male far inferior to you in character and ability, just because they are the female part of God’s image.
Jack
Your response is evidence of the soundness of biblical hiearchy established by God. I will continue to reject your elitist and subtle racism. You remind me of colonial time where you think you are a white male westerner, you are more intelligent than we are, more advanced, more civilised etc. Its no wonder you believe in theistic evolution! Allow me to adress your responses below.
You hihglighted that you feel sorry for my mother ans sister and wives because you incorrectly assume that they are vying for WO. My mother is far more anti WO than I am. She sincerly believes that those who are pro WO are being used by the devil and have the rebeliious spirit of Satan. They are many more other women, that are anto WO. It is the epitome of elitism to assume that Female Africans are Vying for that which God has prohibited.
Questions?
Why is it when one disagrees with someone in another cultural, nation, or political arena they are accused of racism and elitism–can we say nothing to them? The argument of racism only stands up if the person speaking is specifically targetting a person because of race. There is no indication of that here.
Was Jesus elitist when he told the Pharisees the truth? I notice they didn't listen to him either.
On the other hand, not all African church members mistreat women (though it is prevalent in their culture–one learns by obserbing–how could it be different?) that makes Hoehn's accusations stereotyping. But he has lived there. My husband has been there as well, and the women do most of the work, according to his observation of the general population. I suspect this is and will change when another generation comes on the scene.
It makes me wonder what message early missionaries or even later ones, were giving. How come they were able to get people to part with traditions on Sunday worship–but not on female equality. Did our missionaries ignore the weightier matters of the law (treatment of others) and teach only doctrine and the wearing of western suits?
Well Tapiwa I'm from Africa. And yes Hoehn is going into a deeply sensitive subject and should give more background into why he has come to such conclusion that he must address the African community as mythically monolithic whole.
Ultimately- we are one global community and Paul was an equal brother to his Corinth and Ephesus etc. This isn't the Pauline Epistles but it is based on the love in those books and the love God has for all people- REGARDLESS OF GENDER.
Christ spiritually claimed everyone from Gentile Africans to African Jews all are one in Christ- GENDER IS NO EXCEPTION.
Tapiwa, would you qualify your expressed anger above as righteous indignation? iwould submit that Jack Hoehn's interest was not in accusing African men of mysogynism, all men of all nations, races, and creeds have exhibited machoism, jingoism, false pride in assuming they were superior in all ways of life over the lowly female species. This inequality is still playing out in the USA, Europe, Asia, and in Africa. In the USA over 50% of households do not have a father living inthe home, married to the mother. Who is to be the priest in these fatherless abodes? i don't know anything about who leads out in the pastoring in Africa's churches, but i know by experience who the most zealous efficient loving Christian workers, who do the heavy lifting, are in the USA, SDA churchs, and its not the males who stand up for the credit.
I have to agree with Mr Mushaninga. The tone of the blog is condescending with an undercurrent of racist innuendo. It is disrespectful and displays the culture of liberals in the West who hurl similar styled insults to the GC President and the World Church – especially those in Third World countries who hold to traditional Adventist beliefs and practices which are biblically sound and have stood the test of time. The blog further insults the African culture and seeks to undermine the reasoning of African people and the biblical position they have taken on this matter. What Dr Hoehn may have overlooked is that there are currently many liberal Adventists on the African continent who have moved away from a biblical basis for their beliefs and who therefore support WO similarly to their First World counterparts. Just because Africans have thrown off colonialism, racism and nationalism, of which they were on the receiving end of the stick for the most part, doesn't mean they should throw off their bibles and beliefs too.
Were is it said that women should not be allowed to preach in churches as the blog accuses the Divisions and Unions of saying? Where is proof of this loose accusation?
Just because the writer has some ties with the African continent he has taken it upon himself to now dictate in a rather accusatory and derogatory manner his worldviews and perceptions of what he thinks Adventists in Africa should do as he sees fit for them. This is the typical colonialist arrogance that was displayed in the past when Africans were forced to subject themselves to foreign culture, practices and languages which belittled, insulted and undermined both African men and women by classing them as sub-human, often forcing them to servitude, slavery and oppression. Worse still they were robbed of their land and dignity as a people. To accuse the Adventist church in Africa of doing the same is outrageous to say the least and offensively derogatory.
Was it gender discrimination when Jesus chose and ordained the twelve men? Was it gender discrimination when God pronounced that Eve would bear children through pain of childbirth? Was it gender discrimination when Adam was created first? Was it gender discrimination when men were required by God to be circumcised? Was it gender discrimination when men were chosen only to serve as priests? Is it gender discrimination that men are designated the role of being the head of the home and that women should subject themselves to their husbands and that men should love their wives as Christ loved the Church? Is it gender discrimination that a woman, Mrs Ellen White, was chosen as a messenger of the Lord as a result of God choosing her to receive the Gift of Prophecy? Is it gender discrimination when women and men compete separately in sports, use separate public ablution facilities, or have separate roles defined and hardwired biologically by hormonal and reproductive processes that separate men and women distinctively yet remarkably so complementary?
WO is not a matter of gender discrimination as is being touted by special interest groups – but rather one of biblical migration based purely on fluctuating secular godless cultural dictates and norms.
Its so easy to fight the Adventist church with false accusations of gender discrimination and stick in fanciful straw-man arguments; but where was the fight by said gender discrimination Adventist activists during Apartheid, Colonialism and Nationalism. Where are the open letters to those governments, oppressors and those practicing racial discrimination? Where are the letters fighting for the freedom of the Native American People who have being herded into reserves, being robbed of their land and freedom and forced by violence into the servitude of foreign nations and further mocked and insulted as misfits, drunks and good-for-nothings, even by Christian Americans? Where is the letter fighting against their discrimination and for making restitution in giving them back their land? Not forgetting the letters fighting for the rights of the unborn who are aborted en mass in the First World especially largely as a result Capitalist ideals being force fed on its people? Abortion is the worst form of discrimination in which women are allowed to kill their offspring and do so with the blessings of so-called civil society where this act of butchery is called a right and represents the emancipation and the epitome of women's rights and the fight for gender equality. Ja right! Where's the letter?
The Adventist Church in Africa does not discriminate against women. Women in African churches are very active and make up the majority I would say in an exponentially ever increasing growth rate of happy, united, bible believing, saved by grace, washed in the blood Christ and Holy Ghost filled church membership who keep the Sabbath and accept the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church – albeit without frenzy voting and accusing the Church of gender discrimination. It is also an insult to the majority of African grassroots members both men and women who face servere hardships and trying circumstances with all the odds stacked up against them in which their only hope is the old rugged Cross and the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I mean real hard times. In spite of this at least male and female conscientiousness hasn’t yet being eroded in Africa as opposed to the gender bender manmade doctrines of the frenzy voters in the West. Mark my word: the homosexual acceptance as a christian norm and homosexual marriage will be next on the special interest groups agenda and guess what – they will use the same line of arguments similar to gender discrimination to justify their bible migration away from our biblical basis of beliefs and practices.
The churches in parts of the world where the church is waning are at the fore making accusations and frenzy voting to push WO without regard to the World Church, the GC or its president, Pastor Ted Wilson. African Adventists may have their shortcomings like everyone else but to disregard and shun their voices and doctrinal position just because US civil laws have changed is no grounds for making it a biblical mandate for Adventists.
~~Arguments that appeal to "racism" and "who are you to question me" are arguments that attempt to stop the conversation. Dr. Angel Rodriguez, retired former editor of the Biblical Research Institute in his article about the opponents of gender equality in ministry had it right when he wrote,
"This type of diatribe is not constructive and closes the possibility of any meaningful conversation. It leads away from a discussion of the arguments themselves into an evaluation of the character and intentions of those involved in the discussion. This approach seems an attempt to resolve the problem by instilling fear against those who disagree with them…"
My grandfather John Angus Fisher farmed on a "half-breed grant" of land in Canada, I have Cree blood in me from his full blooded Cree great-great-grandmother on that side of the family, so I know about Native American's problems. I also spent the prime of my life working for and with Africans. I am not a white liberal elitist throwing his considerable weight around from an ivory tower in comfort from the USA.
Deanne and I as Canadian/American missioaries opened socialization and lowered racial barriers between expatriates and nationals when we found them. We stepped on white toes and culture and were not always heroes of the other old time missionaries. We made our own cultural faux pas of course.
But I will not permit fear of misunderstanding or cultural taboos or my own imperfections and limitations to keep me from raising this very current Adventist issue with my brothers in Africa.
They know what I look like and who I am, they can take what I say and reject it or modify it or accept it. I offer it with open hands, palms up, in humility, and accept their rebukes and advice. But I cannot for the sake of millions of little girls, their sisters, mothers, and grandmothers just sit quietly in “splendid cultural isolation” and let African or American church leaders perpetuate unopposed the myth of male superiority in spiritual ministry in our church.
“When the buffalo fight, it’s the grass that gets injured.” So this man on man infighting is in danger of trampling the issue into the ground. I hope the female observers will not lose courage due to the sharp and heated debate between the buffalo!
Jack
""This type of diatribe is not constructive and closes the possibility of any meaningful conversation. It leads away from a discussion of the arguments themselves into an evaluation of the character and intentions of those involved in the discussion. This approach seems an attempt to resolve the problem by instilling fear against those who disagree with them…"
It is you in verity who is guilty of this by mischaracterising and misrepresenting our motives. Accusing someone of racism is not an accusation I throw around lightly. So allow me to to tell you and others on this forum why I believe you are a neo colonialist racist
Racism comes in many forms and although you are not the militant type racist, yours is more nuanced because you believe we are incapable of shaping our own moral destiny. I believe you are racist because you think I am incapable of serious critical thinking and sound bible study as evdenced by your letter that I am against WO because I am misogynistic. I believe you are racist because of your simplistic generalisations of African men. I especially believe you are racist because you accused me of oppressing my mother and sisters simply because I am a black African man who opposes WO. Another symptom of nuanced racism is by those who have spent some time in Africa and now believe that they are "experts" on the African culture, mindset and psyche.
The final reason I feel that you are a racist is that your reluctance to apologise even after many on this thread have highlighted that your letter was in bad faith. Even those who support WO have also highlighted the same and still you maintain that you will not recant. This is why I believe you are a racist and an unapologetic one at that.
And the diverse racial community finds African tribal customs from gender discrimination to female circumcision to be barbaric, inhumane, and politely call these practices- misogynistic.
Its a compliment to call your views- misogynistic but so was Peter when he tried to stop Mary Madgalene from foot washing or misogynistic Jews stoning the adulteress woman and the man goes scot-free from punishment.
Men aren't privileged by a fictional uncircumcised penis decree to give permission or punish women for being women. Unlike some African males- The cross IS NOT a pagan phallic symbol to me. God loves them and they love and CAN FULLY SERVE according to the Holy Spirit. Men don't presume to interfere as if you're blood ancestors were King David himself. And don't think Jesus forgot to make spirituality take precedence over blood, law, AND GENDER.
I meant 'severe hardships.'
PS. The attempt to send African men and the Adventist Church in Africa on a guilt trip is noted but a far cry from where the issue really lies. It is a secular culturally motivated and driven ideal which may tickle the fancies of some but one which holds no water as a distinct biblical doctrine or one which can be considered a biblical mandate for that matter. Hurling racial insults and derogatory remarks at African men by accusing them of treating their moms and sisters and daughters as inferior beings only shows a gross lack of understanding about the African culture and what Adventism in Africa and the Third World is about. But of course those in the West always know what's best for everyone else on the planet yet they should first get their own houses (and Churches) in order I would say before poking their noses and dictating in classic fascist style what others should be doing. That's exactly what colonialists do. Neo-Colonialism at its best…
The irony is that he highlights that he is against female discrimination and yet he treats africans as sub human incapable of sound biblical decisions. I also took exception to the fact he believes we discriminate our mothers when it is a well known fact that African men treat their mothers with far more respect than most other people.
Come on, Tapiwa, this is so blatently untrue! You can disagree without resorting to this!
Ella
I have been informed by Jack that the reason I am anti WO is because I am inherently masogynistic. I have also been informed that I want the "glorious past where women were uneducated" I have been also summarily told by Jack that I am oppressing my mother and my sisters simply because I am a black African man. Do you seriously expect me to take this with a smile on my face?? If you also believe these sentiments maybe you and Jack should form your own version of an intellectual KKK.
Though I don't agree with harshness of the letter, he is certainly appealing to African men as equals. If one were speaking down, they wouldn't have the courage to take this stand and say it outright. He is being transparent.
Those who are condescending use a quite different tactic–that is what the word means–they pander to their audience and pretend all is fine, making jabs in more subtle ways–deceiving like the serpent in the garden.
Which approach do you think Jesus used? Read about it. The Jews became very indignant at Him and learned nothing–they didn't listen. Be thankful for an outspoken friend who wants nothing more than to express what he believes is true. I am sorry his race got in the way!
Hello, Mr. Hammond and Mr. Mushaninga, I would definitely agree that the Africans I observed during my four month stay were filled with joy and life and it is their faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit that takes them through severe hardships that they face day after day. In other ways, however, I disagree with you.
I spoke for myself in this thread, and now I want to give another perspective that was shared with me. During my four month stay in 2013, I observed a troubling trend following Sabbath School discussions—that being women having wonderful, Biblical insight that complimented the study (there was nothing potentially subversive about it) which they felt they should not, and could not share in the group. I remember one conversation very distinctly. A young woman pulled me aside and thanked me for my opinion and comment on the lesson. 'I was thinking the same thing," she said. When I asked why she hadn't said anything, she looked away and said, "It isn't my place to speak." On another occasion two young women and I were discussing the lesson. I was excited about the insights and understandings they had; their response for not contributing? "That is not the way it's done here."
This was also a trend outside of the church. I visited an organization that faced severe challenges. Staff meeting was called, discussions were held, and women mostly listened with very few comments. After the meeting we returned to our lodgings. Over the meal the women picked up the topic. Why hadn't they said anything during meeting? "It's not our place." I was then asked to take back their suggestions and present them as my own. "Maybe they will listen to you." These were capable, highly intelligent, and educated women.
It is stated that women are not actively discriminated against, but is there an environment and opportunity for women to speak and share their wisdom and special insights that God has provided? And for women to speak for themselves and not through someone else? From what I observed and experienced, rarely was that the case. And these were in multiple settings—small communities, villages, and the city—not just one place. Jack does not see you as lower or lesser and he does not disrespect you. In all the situations I observed him in, he treated those he spoke to with respect. He believes that African men (all men in reality) have an incredible influence they can make. Even if a division decides against WO, is there anything in his close, especially his final four paragraphs that is contrary to Biblical principles? Is there anything that is un-Christlike? Are we not to always search the Bible and ask for guidance? To study and restudy? All the African men I observed clearly loved their daughters, wives and mothers. I heard the voices of children and the voices of the elder women, but very rarely did I hear wives or women of marriageable age speak up on matters of the church or other serious issues. As you said, there are hard, very hard times being faced—could they not be better faced if everyone believed that God could speak through them, as shown time and again throughout the Bible, and that they can, should, and will speak and be listened to?
I have more to say, but I've already gone over my modest three paragraphs! Oddly, I hope to see woman after woman respond to my post and tell me that I am wrong. I hope women feel empowered by the men in their congregation, by their husbands, and that they believe they have something worth saying, and that it is their place to have a say in their destiny. I should not be speaking for them, but I will because I feel God calling me to, and I hope to love my sisters and brothers as best as I can.
You also have to realise that Africa is a very big place and has many cultures and tribes. It is most unfortunate that that western media potrays us in one big ideological umbrella where we all have one world view and speak with the same accent etc. I appreciate your experience but you have a microscpic sample size for you to postulate how africans treat their women any more than I would use OJ Simpson as indicative of how Americans treat theirs!
I agree with both Tapiwa and Trevor. Need I say more?
Maranatha
Folks, please, think deeply about this issue, kool out and see if what i have to say makes any sense. i sympathise with the general positions of both sides of this issue.
Although Tapiwa is sensitive to whitey even thinking he can tell the black man any thing, because of how whitey treated the black people during all of recorded history.i doubt i have ever seen but a handful of truly black skinned people in my life, most being every shade of brown, that whitey spends big bucks for every spring, wasting his time trying to get pleasantly brown. To me a white flower is an absence of color, it reminds me of death, because as a child attending a Methodistchurch, on Mothers Day, as you entered the church if your Mother was alive you were given a red rose, and if she were dead a white rose. i don't buy white flowers. If we just look at the past 300 years, up to 1980, the life of the people of colour was dictated by the Western white man in totally subjecting them to slavery after annexing their homelands, and treating them as sub human. i won't go into further details, everyone knows the sordid history. This has indelibly etched into the heart of people descended from African lineage, a hatred and suspicion of any forwardness by whitey to suggest any advice of how the black man "should act", and whitey is taken aback when the response is not as he expected, but as though he received both barrels of a shotgun in the gut. This should have been expected. The memory lingers on for the person of colour, and i doubt will ever leave, it is automatically triggered when ever he assumes he is being considered as a lesser person of value, and he will respond every time, i understand this. Would suggest every white man read the book "SOUL ON ICE", by Eldridge Cleaver, and it will provide intelligence as to what the ill treatment of blacks in the past has influenced their psyche up to now and possibly forver. Since 1980, i believe the people of colour have excelled (had been earlier, but not recognized by the masses of whites) in every walk of life, science, education, military, sports, entertainment, humanities, you name it they have broken the bonds of every profession, and whitey knows he has to compete. The fire in the gut has driven people of colour to the tops of every list of excellence. So in essence the black man has arrived. A thinking whitey is able to understand the suffering, murder, and frustration that men of colour had to suck up to survive, for what was an eternity, and recognizies he has equality, in the hearts and minds of most educated whites in the West. Now to Jack Hoehn's letter to African men, i am not an appologist for him, i truly believe he wrote this message not as an authority over black men, but hoping to reach you as an equal to urge you to the point of view of recognition of women as equally able to accept leadership roles in the SDA church, including pastoring. That is also my own belief that God the Holy Spirit calls whom He wants to minister to His flock. We who are Christian, recognize we have diffferent views and interpretations of how God works, yet we are not to vilify each other, as we are all one in Jesus Christ, and should not defame each other or consider each other an opponent. There has been and will always be enmity from the snakes and serpents of the world, but we as individual's, can refuse to be a part of strife, hate, intolerance, and revenge by letting the past which we cannot change, influence our future life. May Jesus, our God, bless you and your loved ones and neighbors with eternal life
I am a black Caribbean male. I support women's ordination, full equality of women, and I hope that the world church will soon allow all of its members to serve as pastors.
That being said, I think this letter is in very poor taste, and is more likely to cause rejection of its message instead of acceptance. I think I get where Dr. Hoehn is coming from, but I wish he had taken a much different tone in his appeal. The perceived spirit behind this letter would not convince me to change my position if I were a black African male.
Tapiwa et al:
I think it is basically a good thing that you and the others are so very passionate about your positions, but I am very, very troubled for my church. The devil would like nothing more than to tear this church apart right down the middle over some theological issue such as women's ordination. It would not be the first time. Many of us have lived through those awful experiences such as Glacier View, etc., when many left the church. And guess what? The church continues on and prospers without those people!
I am saying to myself, "Where is love in all this?" Tapiwa, let me ask you: Just suppose at the GC session next year the vote, in your opinion, goes the wrong way? What are you going to do? Are you going to angrily storm out of the meeting along with hundreds or even thousands of your friends? Are you going to go around carrying signs and banners to loudly proclaim your position? Please, please, calm yourself down! You are making accusations like "racism" which are perfectly ridiculous. I have many, many friends who are not the same color as I, and I love them all dearly. Would you dare allow the devil to use you in such a fashion?
Don't you know that all of these things are Satan's entrapments to take our focus off of winning souls and preparing for Christ's coming? Whether or not we decide to ordain women is not the most important thing! The most important thing is rather, can we go forth from that session united in proclaiming Christ to the world?
Geoffrey, thank you for your conviction. Please write a better plea for the liberation of our daughters and sisters from the false doctrine of male headship in the church of Christ.. Please forgive my poor attempt by giving us a better one. I'll be happy to replace this one with yours.
I loved and lived in Africa for 14 years, if you've had similar personal contact with African men and women, I'm sure you could better my attempt. I'm sorry the color of my skin seems more important than the rights and redemption of women back to the place Christ wants them to have in our church, at our sides, not above, and not below us men.
In response to this topic, letter, and comments, I must acknowledge where I come from. I am a: Privileged, white, pro WO woman who spent the first eight years of her life in Zambia where my parents served as medical missionaries.
There are two issues I struggle deeply with and continue to try to reconcile: 1. The fact that, intentioned or not, my family was/is one of the cogs in the machine of colonialism and neo-colonialism–that is reality. In this fallen world, we all are participants. 2. Whether or not I can remain a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church in light of its administrators' reticence to make way for a flourishing, maturing church that applies new understanding to the unchanging precepts of God's law: Love God and Love Your Fellow Human Beings.
I believe we are limiting whom God can use and, as a result, what might be achieved. I recently returned and spent four months in Zambia. Usually, I was the sole muzungu within the community I resided. I was embraced in a way that I never imagined possible and countless cultural faux pas were forgiven with love. I spent time inside and outside of Adventist communities; I attended Adventist and non-Adventist churches. More importantly, I observed people treating each other, regardless of gender, with respect. Also, just like in the US, I observed people, regardless of gender, treating each other with disrespect.
From the research I have done into the early mission movement in the area, the early missionaries thought that Christianity would be the answer to the suffering, pain and fear they saw around them. There were similar motivations for the missionaries who led the way of Manifest Destiny in the US. Well, guess what, while both are Christian nations there is just as much, if not more, suffering, pain, degradation, and tragic limitations to what might be today.
So what went wrong?
Three days ago, I came across a quote by one of the missionaries, Dr. Elmslie in his horrifically, borrowing a term used within this thread, jingoistically titled book, Among the Wild Ngoni (1899). In it, he discusses a Ngoni religious ceremony. He states that "a close examination of [the rites] proves the existence of their belief in a Providence, a Judge, and an Almighty King, but we cannot stop to unfold the matter here." I groaned when, rather than reflecting upon the glimpses of Truth he might be seeing and taking the time and risk to dare to "unfold the matter" and see if there was anything he could learn, Elmslie presses on with great zeal, and condemns all aspects of the culture—what a missed opportunity! As I see it, our human tendency is to become so passionate with our understanding of truth that we cannot see God in others, and thereby leave ourselves tragically open to the imposition of beliefs upon others in a way that God would not. Even more frightening, we risk fooling ourselves that we are God.
Those of you reading the original piece and following comments know the author as Dr. John Hoehn. I know him as Uncle Jack. My parents served alongside him for several years. I know the strain it was upon my parents and also upon him and his family. I know that not everything was done well. My father and mother are human, their words and actions were not perfect. Likewise, Dr. Hoehn is just human and one that has done, as we all have, as best as he can. Far too often, the heart, intent and desire of a message gets lost in the limitations of words and perspective.
The most important point is that we are all products and bearers of a legacy of racism, sexism, and hurts and injustices that God never intended. Each of us holds greater or lesser capital—due to matters outside of our control. It is what we do with that capital that matters. I believe all Adventist men must examine themselves to see if it is possible that empowering women as equals and traveling alongside them, rather than above, the other being that God has created in God's Image, male and female, might allow our church to come alive with a Spirit and hope that is begging to be given a chance to transform and heal.
So, in my letter to my fellow believers, I ask that each of us dares to "unfold the matter[s]" within our own lives and our own cultures that might limit what might otherwise be accomplished. Can we hazard the question of whom we have placed as God? Can we be bold enough, vulnerable enough, and broken enough to admit that it just might be ourselves? Can we then have faith to step out and unite with others even if we don't totally agree?
Finally, there is an important question for myself as a woman, and I believe other women. How do I boldly claim my inheritance as a child of God with solid conviction and dignity and also with respect for others?
The miracle of it all? God reaches across barriers to re-unite and create beauty in the history and in the midst of present injustice and inequity—when we allow him to. I believe this, other wise there is no reason to struggle and hold on to faith.
Thank you for you well-written comment.
No one is disputing Dr Hoehn's humanity or falliablity. What I have an issue is the failure to apologise when you misrepresent an others. Bearing false witness is still in the ten commandments. I will probably forgive Dr Hoehn and pray for him! all I am saying is that it would be a lot easire if he apologised for his racist rhetoric
I feel that's very unfair, Tapiwa. I agree with you that Jack's missive feels paternalistic. But that doesn't make it racist. Quite the contrary! Racism consists of race-based negative/inferior attitudes or behaviors toward others. If Jack was racist, he might have suggested that Black people in Africa should continue to discourage female pastors because their cultures are not yet ready to handle the idea that God does not intend for gender be a barrier to the pastoral gift.
I have read why you feel Jack's letter is racist, and I sympathize with your feeling that it is condescending. I am condescended to quite regularly on this website, particularly by liberals; I am regularly accused of having oppressive attitudes; many comments insinuate that I and other conservatives are homophobic, misanthropic, and benighted. Why would I assume that the reason lies in personal physical qualities or characteristics with which I was born, as opposed to the fact that some people think my ideas are wrong, and that they emanate from a primitive, unenlightened belief system?
Perhaps you are not the typical African male, Tapiwa. Perhaps Jack intended to reach a different audience than thoughtful, Western educated African intellectuals. I know I'm not the typical American male in many, many ways. Yet I'm not offended by appeals directed to the mindset of football fans, because I recognize that demographic to be very prevalent in America. Do you really think that, if Jack were making a similar appeal to a fundamentalist, non-university educated Caucasian audience, he would use substantially different arguments?
Nathan
I appreciate your well thought out sentiments. You feel I went to far in labeling Jack a racist. I too have been labeled fundamentalist, homophobe etc but I have taken it as part of the dialogue, an occupational hazard as it were. But such characterisations stem from ideological differences. I am not offended at being denigrated for ideological differences but African Men is a pretty big demographic to write such a letter. Are you familiar with a neo colonial mindset?? I believe Jack is exhibiting all the traits of such a mindset thats why I called him out. I have never had Jack accussing Doug Batchelor and Stephen Bohr and others like them of oppressing their mother and sisters or of wanting to keep women uneducated. Yet when he addresses African Men, all the negative stereotypes pop up. How is that not racist? I am not saying he is those wacko bald headed aryan racist types, but his is a more nuanced far more subtle racism where his negative attitude towards us is that we are black African hence we are morally and intellectually inferior. You highlighted that he was paternalistic but I believe it was a neo colonial mindset? Do you still think I am unfair?
Another point is that all ad hominem attacks and negative labelling against you is never based your race, sex and geographical location but on you ideological leanings. I do not mind going through the same but when you invoke race, sex and country does not that qualify as nuanced racism?
I understand what you are saying, Tapiwa. And on re-reading the letter, I can understand why you are incensed. I must admit that my political correctness epigenes caused me to cringe when I read the letter. I wish it had been addressed and confined to the communities of African men who know and trust Jack, and who Jack believes will accept the letter in the spirit that he intended it.
It is apparent that Jack overgeneralizes what he sees as a cultural flaw in Black African male attitudes toward female roles. He doesn't address folks like Doug Batchelor the same way because they are highly educated Westerners, and their attitudes toward women in ministry flow from sophistical theological rationalizations rather than what Jack sees as thriving cultural myths of male superiority. He uses mythic rhetorical images to break down those sexist myths, and that rhetoric offends you because you equate his condescending rhetoric and negative stereotyping of a culture with racism.
But I still don't see racism here. Negative stereotyping of a racial subculture is only racist if one believes that race accounts for the negative characteristic. Is Bill Cosby racist when he lectures American Blacks, whose ancestry he shares, about the importance of facing up to some pretty tragic statistical realities? Racism would say, "Don't try to change them, because that's just the way they are."
I don't think it is racist to speak to a culture in terms that it can understand and contextualize. The recognition by Jack, that his audience is in general far less educated than AToday readers, is a far cry from believing that they are, because of their race, inferior in any way. Would you characterize a professor, who talks down to his far less educated students, as ephebiphobic?
It is instructive to a former adventist like me to read this discussion. Nearly everyone is very confident that the position they hold is the only correct one. Some feel that they hold the position that they do as a result of being led to that position by the Holy Spirit. It's complicated, isn't it. If this were true, it might mean that the Holy Spirit leads individuals in one place to believe differently than in other places. If God were better at being culturally sensitive than are any of the rest of us, perhaps the Holy Spirit would convict individuals differently within and across cultures. Perhaps the fundamental message Jesus Christ is that God loves us all and that we are to all love and respect one another–that we are to treat others as we wish to be treated.
In some places, following that message might result in individuals who are not focused on color, race, ethnicity, sex, gender, sexual orientation. Even so, there may be structural and organizational issues that work against this. Even though I am an outsider, I hate to see an organization that is being torn assunder by issues of this sort. Claims of acceptance of the message of Jesus ring hollow in the context of such strife.
I tend to agree with you, Joe. Generally speaking, I'm very wary of morally lecturing others with whom we are not in community, and with whom we do not have what Spanish speaking people call confianza. We can certainly enter into robust dialogue with others, but only as relative equals who respect the autonomy and intelligence of the other. Otherwise, despite our best intentions, we will come across as paternalistic and condescending.
There is a grave danger in elevating our values to universal moral norms, or even universal Biblical norms. When our moral preferences are minority values, we seek tolerance. But when those values become majority values, then, if we see them as universal moral norms, we easily forget about the tolerance we once prized, and seek to impose those values on others, often, as you point out, with very destructive consequences. I'm not sure God intended cultures to rule over each other any more than He intended men to rule over women.
Joe, I agree with much of what you said, and it was succinctly and well-put. It is a very, very complicated—and often threatening—matter indeed.
Thank you for your participation and what you shared.
We women know how to "turn off" those male voices when they begin telling women what is their rightful place. We will determine where we stand and it's only on full equality, regardless of what some may wish. They no longer have the power or ability to determine where and how we will live. Having grown up in this mileu, it is no longer acceptable and no longer tolerated.
I hate to break it to you, Elaine. But you do not speak for "we women" any more than I can speak for "we men." Equality is not the issue. People are not equal and they never will be. Few have the power to fully determine where or how they will live, and the more humanity is subjected to an ideological quest for some abstract egalitarian utopia, the less free people will be to determine where or how they will live. To be fully equal is to eradicate difference. How do you propose to achieve that?
Does it ever occur to you that there are millions of women in the world, just as intelligent and moral as you, who cherish male/female differences, and believe that those difference are of functional significance to how each functions in family and society? Whether those differences justify denial of access to certain roles is a complex question for many cultures. The outcome of the West's experiment with radical equality is yet to be determined. What is no longer accepted and tolerated by those who have grown up in your "milieu" isn't necessarily normative for those who have grown up in a different milieu, is it? Or are you advocating a return to cultural imperialism and moral coercion?
Really, Elaine, you need to quit packaging your moral sententiousness in the dogma boxes of conservative fundamentalism.
Where would men be without women? Where would men prefer to be, with, or without women (no need really to ask this question, remember Adam)?? Not until the transformation of flesh to spirit form, will or can the world do without the female of the species, which carries MORE than half the load. The ceiling has fallen. God is calling all women to shoulder the load, as they have in the past, without respect, of leading God's heart's desire, His creation, as the male species needs help.
To our African friends:
I just found the following quote from a Nigerian woman that explains some of the problem people have with the term feminism. I think it explains the difficulty with many terms that lable people today and polarize–they get used out of context and are used to inflame.
"Feminist: A person who believes in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes.
"What is the biggest barrier to young women connecting to feminism today?
The word itself comes with such bad baggage. You’ll have women who if you listed out major ideas of gender equality, they would agree with them, but then if you said, “are you a feminist?,” they’d say “no.” That's one of the reasons I wanted to use the word feminism. [I wanted to] talk to young people, and say, “forget the history of the word and the baggage it carries, and think about the idea of it.”
Ngozi from Nigeria
Just because the Divisions and Unions on the African Continent aren't bowing down to the dictates of cultural norms that have greatly influenced those in the West, they are now paying dearly by being insulted and disrespected, and are being labeled as oppressors and abusers of women – these being mothers, sisters and daughters. Any defense of their bible based Christian beliefs or doctrinal position is called a diatribe. Those who justify, excuse and defend this type of disrespect only worsen it more by adding insult to injury. Back stabbing Pastor Ted Wilson and the GC isn't enough. The boldness of the attacks is evidently gaining momentum and like clockwork, the world church, largely represented by a Third World majority, of which a large contingent resides in Africa, is now being dragged into the fray. Just because they said no to culture bullies.
It would be helpful to know if Prof. Mushaninga's response to Dr Hoehn's letter to African Men re: women, is how the majority of African SDA Christian men also would have responded, or Tapiwa, do you feel you were not respected as an equal in intelligence, when obviously you are? Masogynism is the result of global causation, not just a few cultures, and i personally believe Paul was speaking ex inspiration when voicing his hatred and masogynism of females in general. i believe Paul had a big hangup when it came to women.
Dr Hoehn sets out with the premise that African Adventist men (and to a large extent African men in general) are 1] Wrong, 2] Their biblical basis for Adventist belief and practice is questionable, 3] That African Adventist men are women haters, including the Division and Union leaders, 4] That they heavily discriminate against women, 5] That they are backward in their thinking, 6] Intentionally are holding women back from education and leadership in order to subject them to oppression and to have them disempowered, 7] That women are intentionally kept subservient to men, 8] That they are like all men who want to be boss, 9] That Jesus disapproves of the position they hold which Adventists worldwide have always held in line with the GC, 10] That because Mrs White was called by God as his Messenger that all women should be allowed to do whatever they want in the church, 11] That African Adventists aren't progressive, 12] That Adventist men are fighting to be and remain in charge, 13] That African church leaders do not recognise Christ as the head of the church, 14] That they need to go back to school so to speak to study, 15] To pray as they seem to have made decisions without much prayer, 16] Their thinking needs re-thinking until the Adventist men in Africa think like him, 17] That daughters of Adventist men are held back from education, 18] That Adventist men in Africa must help with household chores as if they don't, 19] They must involve women in financial decisions as if they don't and 20] That the sexual relationships of Adventist African men is one-sided and exploitive of women.
All this (more or less) just because of WO.
Trevor
As I said below, behaviors of American men are diverse, and many of the things you note above can and do happen here. And where do you think pornography and immoral behavior on the media are rampant? The west has exported its junk food and Hollywood mores to the whole world. And talk about female exploitation, our media is hypcritical in the way it uses women, and many women think they have to be used to be successful. Actresses will go nude on screen if asked to
My point is that in behavior and history all of us have a lot of sin in our cultures, and can't pretend to be superior.
I know for a fact that education and scholarship is very important to African Adventist men, and they are critical thinkers; some of the best. But like many educated Americans who lean toward liberal theology, it is no surprise that African men are going to lean toward the background they were brought up with. There is little objectivity in any of us. Let's admit it and go on from there, even if we don't all go the same direction on WO. Unity cannot exist within uniformity. Some will be left resentful. I frankly cannot understand why our leaders weren't sensitive enough to figure this out long ago.
I well remember Pastor Samuel Shapa , one of two ordained African ministers in (then) Bartoseland in what is today western Zambia. He once (in 1957) took me to visit the Mulena Makwai, the female next-in-line to the royal Malozi throne. Following a protracted exercise of kneeling, almost crawling and gently clapping on the pastor’s part, she motioned him to sit and we enjoyed a nice conversation. After this encounter I asked him why he allowed himself to be so humiliated. Looking directly at me with a certain incredulity, he replied something to the effect, “Muluti, we never think of anything but respect.” Much later than this, while Ingathering in what is today Zimbabwe, I noticed carefully how a tobacco farmer of Afrikaans ethnicity was conspicuously comfortable to leave his pretty wife in the kitchen while he chatted with me (a white stranger) in their living-room. He was obviously (as far as I was concerned) exaggerating the idea of male home headship.
Indeed there is such a thing as false respect. Again I remember when Pastor Shapa — this same bright ordained minister and excellent interpreter — looked skyward another day as a large commercial airliner sped across the heavens at 35,000 feet. He reflected, “Muluti, the black man will never be able to do that!” [That was back in 1958.] 45 years later my visiting wife and I took a Zambian Airlines commercial flight from Lusaka to Harare. At the controls were two obviously competent black Zambian pilots.
This same respect for authority in Africa was held for our early Adventist missionaries by the indigenous population. These early missionaries distributed among the early English-learners in their Bible classes copies of S. N. Haskell’s Bible Doctrines booklet.
RE:"He reflected, “Muluti, the black man will never be able to do that!" [Warren R. Zork]
——
Dear Mr Zork
At first glance Pastor Shapa’s statement would strongly suggest a case of an indoctrinated inferiority complex of some sort. Anyone who has lived for a while within the construct of organised racial oppression and discrimination, especially those who are on the receiving end of such evil, will almost always see how it has a way of getting to their victims, in that, the oppressed, will eventually, in many instances, begin to uncannily accept that their aggressors are right in what they are doing and saying and that these said oppressors only have their best interests at heart which they portray to be of great benefit to their victims. The ‘if it wasn’t for the white man…’ line for example is not uncommon.
Perhaps this may not have been the case with Pastor Shapa: He may have just tried to be polite in his own way and did not intentionally mean to run black people down in order to impress his white friend by rather strongly positing that black people are inferior to whites.
This is a sad commentary on harmony. We have two different cultures and we should allow different opinions to direct each. There is no reason why everyone needs to march to the same drummer. That is not unity, it is forced uniformity, and no one will be satisfied. But it could cause deep division as it has here.
Those in Africa should not keep those in Europe and other western countries from doing what they feel works in their culture and vice versa. Of course, I believe strongly in women being equal disciples. As I have said before, the best way to solve this would be to do away with ordination and have workers be commissioned with laying on of hands. That is Christ's way. Now if that would make some people unhappy, then they are showing what really they value–position and power.
Trevor, the culture of the US has many unsavory behaviors and has no right to look down on others. Just take a look at the media and its immorality and violence. Look at its drug and alcohol addiction and the new culture of cohabitation without marriage, and families without fathers, junk food, its antiChristian environment–I could go on and on. By exporting these things to other countries, it has and will bring them down as well. Neither side follows Godly principles, wouldn't you say?
Tapiwa says, "If you read your Bible carefully you cannot help but notice the Biblical hierarchy setup before the fall."
Let me offer this comment from Ellen White PP 46
"Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head, nor be trampled under his feet as an inferior, but to stand by his side as an equal, to be loved and protected by him."
Dear Mr/Mrs Lynn
Adventists in Africa don't teach, condone or encourage any form of female circumcision or mutilation as I would prefer to call it. It is a barbaric practice indeed – I agree. We have some agreement on this one – hooray. But what about body piercing of infants, especially the ear-lobes of female children? Or perhaps elective abortion, including those who specifically choose to abort their female offspring? Are these, especially the latter not barbaric too? I would say they are.
As for WO being a 'gender discrimination' issue, that is highly debatable as women and men are very different. By default their roles aren't the same especially in terms of their biological differences which God had a mega direct hand in. I do, on most occasions, when possible, open the car door for my dear wife (I just love her to bits). I don't expect for her to do the same and won't consider this an act of 'gender discrimination' on her part in any way.
My wife and I seldom travel to church together as we collectively pick up about fifteen to twenty people for church every Sabbath. My part of the pickups includes an amputee, a good Christian brother I might add, a widower, who has to be assisted from house to vehicle on wheelchair, from wheelchair into vehicle, with wheelchair then being loaded in at the back, then at church the wheelchair is taken out, brother is assisted from vehicle to wheelchair, then wheelchair with brother in it is pulled carefully up a few stairs before going into church. The process is repeated when going home. This is a walk in the park for myself as previously I had to carry another brother from the house, up a flight of about twenty stairs, seat him in vehicle, go back to house, carry wheelchair and pack it in, carry brother from car to wheelchair, go down about thirteen stairs then into church and this of course repeated when going home by pulling wheelchair with brother in it up the thirteen stairs. I do this pickup and not my wife. As a Christian man this role should be what men would usually be cut out for and not women. We leave for church at 8h00 on Sabbath mornings in order to make it to church on time with pickups and to assume our other responsibilities thereafter. I would concede that there may be many women who are stronger than I who would easily do this pickup every Sabbath morning but such a role is more suitable for Christian men including as male pastor and not a female one. My wife does some of her pickups in a notoriously rough neighborhood and I appreciate her in this regard as much as I would want to do all the pickups myself we complement each other by our gender rather than change roles unecessarily. My role as a Christian man is different because of gender and not because of discrimination.
Would Mr/Mrs Lynn accuse men of being misogynistic when the wife falls pregnant and goes through the discomforts of pregnancy and childbirth?
Would Mr/Mrs Lynn accuse Jesus of being misogynistic when he chose and ordained twelve men.
Just because some cultural groups are on government approved steroids doesn't necessarily make them the arbiters what constitutes gender discrimination especially since men and women are designed to complement each other through their distinct differences rather than to merge or swop these roles and cede their male/female conscientiousness in the process. Ultimately this is what is being done in my opinion and for some noteworthy reason the Bible is not in line with this worldview no matter how one may spin their theology even to dizzy heights – it just isn’t there. It is not just extra-biblical but non-biblical teachings too. It also strongly (but sadly) suggests that the Bible model defining the roles of women and men in the family and church is a failed model and further implies that God has failed and man has found a better way through the mechanisms of secular humanist ideals and its gender bender culture. Ironically it is the very culture that has got itself into major mess as a direct result of departing from the word of God and compromising with deviant cultural norms.
Are 'militant neo Christians fascists' those who aren't gullible and easily influenced by the culture club antics of secular governments which are forcing their way into the church, and who aren't swept away by the peer pressure of frenzy voting or the negative influences of peoples theologians and gender bender decrees of the secular state? Are these 'militant neo Christians fascists' those who haven't seen any concrete conclusive evidence from scriptures to support what has not been a practice of the Christian Church throughout its history up until now – including ours? Okay, if this is what you mean by 'militant neo Christians fascists’ then where do I sign up?
I don't support calling for you to be banned from the boards Mr/Mrs Lynn because at least I have a better understanding of the extremities that liberals are capable of. Progressive extremism at its best. I hate to see a progressive liberal extremist get banned on his own turf.
I also hope 'discrimination' enthusiasts like Mr/Mrs Lynn don't start venting their special interests in claiming that those who sleep at night are discriminating against the day. Government first approving it of course!
Comment by John Kaluba (Zambia):
Dr. Hoehn.
I would like to thank you very much for the study or reflection on the ordination of women. Yesterday when I read it, I was compelled right away to share it with friends in the Fellowship Band where I belong. I presented it carefully, knowing quite well that most of them would be offended if I took sides. The subject of the study was 'Preaching and ordination of women in the church.' In my introduction I was quick to say that as university students they needed to be level headed and tolerant to ideas that they could consider new to their faith. In other words it was presented as a thought provoking study. A number of issues that you raised were met with great surprise. For example the aspect of smoking, wives and slavery.
The study was really mind boggling, but I was glad towards the end of it all, they appreciated your line of thought. If there is a country were writings of Ellen White are perpetually used in studies of the bible it is here in Zambia. Often times when one preaches without making reference to the writings of Ellen White it appears that they were ill prepared for the task. However, as you explained in your work, White preached back then and really there is no rationale in saying women should not preach today.
I personally appreciate your contribution on this matter which has dragged for years. Further I would like to inform you that I have already shared this study via email with at least five fellow Africans and am pretty sure that soon more will learn about it.
Pastors and other spiritual leaders here are not all against the issue (Women’s Ordination) in my thought. Probably, they have fear of losing significant church members who have chosen to be conserved purely because they don't believe that truth is progressive. However, I am optimist that with time as we continue praying consensus based on the truth will be reached.
Comment by Bernard Mulambya:
I wish to reply to your "letter to African Men"
The idea is just fine to me, I don't see why it should provoke any racial feelings. I don't particularly feel inferior nor do I feel belittled if someone feels I am not doing as they do. The Bible does not discriminate
against anyone. God must have had a reason for making us different from one another; remember we come from different cultural backgrounds, and this is not by our own design ( remember Babel). I personally don't think women preaching is offensive. If they can teach, surely they can also preach; whats the difference or big deal. If the mother of Joseph could make him forsake his kingship of the richest Kingdom by private tuition, why not let women make us forsake worldliness on the pulpit in public – and make us choose Christ?
I don't think the "African woman" is ready yet to take full center stage in church though. I don't think it is correct to push them there for the sake of Gender. They should earn their place and at the right time. After all God himself said a time will come when they shall prophesy; who are we to stop them if God wills it to be so?
Thank you Dr. Jack for your mind provoking letter
Editor
Its interesting that you are posting responses of Adventist African men who agree with the tone of letter. That is fair and fine its a shame they believe that every African man who is anti ordination oppresses their mother and wants women to be ordained. Just to be clear I have no prblem with people wanting to ordain women. What I have a problem with is proponents of WO employing negative stereotypes and over the top simplistic racist rhetoric. It is also interesting that a belgian newspaper published doctored images of Obama and his wife as monkeys. Racism is still alive and well. It is however most unfortunate when it is in the church
I do not see how God can possibly be glorified by the representations made in this letter.
Is this the level to which we have sunk as a church?
Mr. Hoen whatever may be said about women's ordination – but you need to repent and be converted.
Gentlemen: north, south, east, and west. We have diverse cultures. We are that which history and environment have made us. We all have memories as the elephant, and they have shapened our psyche indelibly. Can't we all be willing, and our psyche lets us, brotherly love and tolerance must prevail. We must become as one, in the culture of Jesus Christ, as Christ is ONE with the Ancient of Days, and our Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Do i hear a AMEN??
I agree with the intent of your letter but how can they be tolerance when some believe we are backward, barbaric etc? Maybe you can help us?
Comment by Bernad Mulambya:
Dear Tapiwa, if anyone wishes to bring racism in church, in any form, it's to their own peril and doom. They shoot their own foot. Thanks for clarifying your 'holy anger'. It's painful to encounter such behavior. Concentrate on positive side.