We Cannot Pass This Way Again
by Edwin A. Schwisow, May 21, 2015: Dear Adventist Today Friends: The year was 1843, and the word “Gold” echoed coast to coast in the US, continent to continent, in a muscular elegy to instant wealth.
Borrowing that theme, the American poet and polymath Edgar Allan Poe discovered a new source of material wealth in a ”mystery” he wrote that same year and christened “The Gold Bug.” In it the hero claims that a yellow-colored insect is guiding him to a trove of long-buried pirate riches. It all seemed a bit insane—perhaps Edgar had imbibed a bit too heavily as he wrote. But to the bemused amazement of the reader, the bug does indeed manage to guide the protagonist directly to a cache of millions dollars’ worth of loot along the South Carolina coast.
Poe’s story epitomizes the 19th-century’s ferocious determination to cash in, in an era of gold rushes when instant wealth was a supreme theme. The religions hatched in the West during that era predictably all emphasize riches and prosperity unknown both here and in the sweet bye-and-bye.
Gold in That-thar Bible
That same year (1843), the Baptist lay preacher William Miller lifted eyes heavenward to gold untold, citing the biblical book of Daniel as his celestial Gold Bug. A golden age had arrived for all, he preached, on earth as it is in heaven—a Gilded Age, as humorist Mark Twain would later christen the latter decades of that self-focused era.
Though the coming of Christ did not happen at Miller’s predicted time, the psychology and faith of the times were such that the golden flame continued to burn, and it seemed to paradoxically glow most fervently among young, selfless idealists, who saw the Great Disappointment as a bitter, but not fatal, test of faith. God was in the advent movement, they believed, and the prediction’s immediate failure was due to human lukewarmness—not divine error.
As the Advent Movement became more and more corporatized, it developed skill in mass-producing Christianity and became a far, far cry from the days in the 1840s when it consisted largely of a group of bright, socially integrated teenagers.
A Return to the Gilded Age?
Today some heirs to the mantle of William Miller look back wistfully to the Gilded Age of the Movement—now widely referred to as its Historic period.
We are told now that these were times of ardent, simple faith, in which the golden themes running through the Bible’s apocalyptic pages were taken literally and to the death.
The denomination was united on all salient points of salvific doctrine, but alas and alack, liberalism crept in and we took our eyes off the gold and concentrated instead on bigness and numbers.
Problems with a Neo-gilded Proposition
But there’s a problem. There is no recorded Golden Era of early Advent purity. Rather, Adventists during that period were haggling to the death on such urgent matters as which horn on an apocalyptic beast represented which European nation, and whether or not the denomination should or should not have a president. It was during this time period, in fact, that Ellen White seemed most insistent that too much kingly power was held by men who believed their way was the only way to operate the church. Do we—should we— move “forward” to this historic era? Are we prepared to reap the consequences of returning to a “Historic” era of centralized authority that had Adventist membership and theology gasping for air?
During the past 50 years, two denominations founded during our “Historic” period have learned that lesson in a dramatic way. Both the Southern Baptists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses in recent times moved toward a centralization of conservative power, and the growth of both has been seriously compromised. In fact, the downfall of denominations rarely comes from relaxing doctrines and standards; ordinarily, decay comes from adamantly imposing unalterable requirements that discourage creative expressions of faith and thoughtful Present Truth.
A Better Response
One of Adventist Today’s serious reasons for existence is to keep the lines of communication open among members of major ideological preferences, in creative ways that constantly transcend the past to present the original gospel in ways that speak eloquently to generations today. From the days of St. Paul onward this has always been the way of cutting-edge Christianity. And as in the case of Paul, it is often a quasi-independent group on the periphery of the corporate center that finds the freedom to seek out and test better ways.
In turn, we are calling on more younger writers, writing more in-depth material related to their youthful concerns, for it is among our youth that we are seeing a particularly high rate of membership loss—a group of largely progressive youth who have absolutely no interest in returning to a neo-Gilded Age. This outreach, today, is consistent with one of the founding goals of Adventist Today two decades ago—to reach out to young adults from Adventist families and keep them engaged with the faith. This is an even more important issue today, as many youth remain inactive, as their parents and grandparents illustrate more and more the “graying of Adventism.”
Adventist Today has added two additional staff members over the past year, both in their 30s, believing that you, our donors, will support us with the additional income necessary. Within this budget we are also inviting several journalism students from Adventist universities and colleges to be part of the team in San Antonio this coming summer, to provide coverage of the GC Session. The perspectives of these young adults are important not only to attract more young adult readers, but also to help the rest of us understand how young people perceive the Church.
We have also expanded the distribution of Adventist Today by adding a Facebook edition, which is updated daily by Emmy Halvorsen, our new Facebook editor and the youngest member of our staff. It is reaching a significant number of young adults around the world, especially among the burgeoning Adventist populations in Africa, Latin America and Asia.
The percentage of those who leave the faith is climbing to all-time highs, and prominent leaders seem intent on moving us back to one of the most dissonant and controversial Adventist eras in our historic existence. This ill serves young, educated Adventists who derive inspiration from both the Bible and from nature/science—books that in most arenas agree in principle.
Adventist Today needs to raise $15,000 more in the weeks before General Conference opens in early July. We’re almost there, thanks to those who have already given in April and May.
There are some who would have us return to the rusty past, where great controversy was far more than the title of a great book. This Session could be the breaking of a new and better day of creativity, or as in the case of other 19th-century denominations, it could herald an acceleration of the withering already being experienced among our youth and educated classes. There is a time for everything, wrote the Wise Man. The Gilded Age of the 19th century cannot fully address those needs in our time. We must broaden our base and strengthen our financial cords to serve a world seeking widely for solid reasons to explore the pathways of Jesus in this generation.
Guest Columnist Edwin A. Schwisow is Adventist Today Secretary of Development.
Well said, Ed
I’m struggling with this whole conversation. I view it as just one more distraction to offset our faith structure.
What is the basis of our faith? Mine is based on scriptures that should be familiar to most of us:
“In the beginning God….”
“Remember the Sabbath Day…”
“For God so loved the world…”
“If Ye love me, keep my…”
“Fear God and give glory…”
“Hear is the patience of the saints…”
And so forth. All this controversy has to end. Of course Ed was discussing the view of the educated. I guess the rest of of us who never made college are excluded by our unfortunate station in life.
Maybe our youth need to study and understand the 2300 day prophecy and the beautiful science of our Salvation. And maybe the educated need to recognize that their wisdom doesn’t even equate to God’s foolishness.
I beg of you, stop discussing things that distract our minds away from Jesus and start focussing more on his wonderful love and soon coming.
Yes, one can indeed bemoan the apparent ineptitude and time-wasting shortcomings of topics that to us seem irrelevant, if not downright dangerous. I remember as a kid sometimes visiting some adult Sabbath school classes (to make a presentation from a kid’s point of view) and wondering why the old folks seemed so out-of-tune with the “real problems” of my world, as they droned on about this or that(to me)inane question from the Book of Revelation, such as, “Does Jesus literally have shimmering white hair?” or “Why are the walls of the New Jerusalem miles and miles high? Is that literal or symbolic of something else?”
To some personalities the answers to these complex questions are all-consuming and even pivotal to their Christian faith. To a 12-year-old, it was interesting only in the vaguely science-fiction sense.
I remember a conversation not long ago with an aged reader of Adventist Today, a widow well into her 80s. She’d grown up in the 1940s and remained a staunchly traditionalist Adventist, yet she avidly read Dr. Taylor’s material that at times suggests answers far afield of traditional Adventist Creationist custom.
“I’m not going to change my way of thinking,” she’d beamed, after reading one of his longer articles. “But that was sure a nice article. I’ve always wondered why some Christians didn’t see Creation on the same terms I’d been taught in academy, and my teachers would never explain the alternative points of view to me. Adventist Today has done so, and Dr. Taylor in particular, and I am so appreciative for gaining this insight!”
I have found that there are people out there, Adventists who at this point in time are consumed by issues about which I, personally, don’t care about a great deal.But that does not mean that in reading that material, my own experience and education may not be advantaged. There are fine people who view some Adventist Today material as irrelevant to them, if not threatening, and will not touch it. Others wish we would take things a lot further out, and away, from traditional fare. I think our editors do a right, fine job keeping us close enough to Adventist “base” that we can do a little exploring, and still “find our way home at night, the better for the insights we’ve seen in our excursions.” That’s what education is all about, isn’t it? As a missionary, I studied deeply into the culture of the people we went out to serve—for example, elements of belief taught by the Roman Catholic Church, counted by 95 percent of the people as their home faith. As I studied, my apprehensions about Catholicism actually grew, but it was extremely helpful to be exposed to the ethos of people we could serve—people who to that point had known nothing but the Catholic Church as their spiritual Alma Mater…. As we grew to understand their perspective, we were far better prepared to dialogue with them on topics of great import to Advent Christianity….
Ed,
The same AToday email that linked to your opinion piece here also had this headline: “In Dealing with Creationism, Is Official Adventism Going Down the Same Road as Islam?” With such radical, off-the-wall headlines, it’s hard to take AToday seriously.
So what big issue is coming up at the GC Session that would illustrate the concern you have expressed? The clarifying of our fundamental beliefs so that it is crystal clear that we still believe as we always have in a six-day creation? And if we dare clarify that belief in that way, we’re going to lose a lot of young people and educated people? Certainly you wouldn’t want to suggest such an absurdity, but the unfortunate fact that the blurbs about your opinion piece and that blog post appeared in the same email leaves that impression.
At the present time the conservative element of the Church is not at all secretive about the fact that it prefers to give far more priority to “Holy Writ” than to the Book of Nature, or science. In my growing-up years in Adventist education, I was taught that despite the appearance of discrepancy between revealed truth and the truths of nature, ultimately they would concur. That’s why we needed to study these apparent contradictions, and Dr. Taylor has been the strongest of proponents for study of these issues, as are most of the founders of this magazine. There are elements in Adventist leadership that hold, by and large, that science can and should be ignored in establishing our fundamental beliefs, except in cases where the science supports the church’s traditional points of view.
I happen to believe that there is an intrinsic harmony between science and faith, in that both seek ultimate Truth. I would say that the primary difference between my views on Truth and Ervin’s is that he is a scientist and hence believes that we all need to be far more aware of scientific developments and manifestations than we are. He may be right. But as a non-scientist, I tend to hold that we also need to understand Holy Writ far better than we do today, if we are to understand the unifying harmony between faith and science. Yes, I do believe that one of the reasons for being of Adventist Today is the search for unifying harmony between faith and science. We are all intelligent beings and seek “a reason for our faith.” Seeking that reason does not, in my estimation, display a poverty of faith, but an intelligent seeking after faith and the evidences in science and nature that ultimately undergird faith. This is one of the primary watchwords at Adventist Today and will remain so as long as these questions remain open and viable. Discussing these questions in my experience has provided me with a vital way to enter into conversation with many highly educated scientists and graduate students who have almost (but not quite) given up on faith as a vital ingredient of life. These “intelligentsia” will simply not enter into discussion with a Christian who rules out all but the most literal views regarding the book of origins, Genesis.
What is the average age of AToday readers and blog commenters?
Let’s just say many of us are young enough to have seen Louis Armstrong play “Hello Dolly” on TV.
If we want to “cut to the chase” about the origin and ongoing relevance of the Advent movement, and how the SDA church is involved, we must realize that the SDA church has never had a clear and mature explanation of sin and the atonement. Because of this lack of maturity in understanding, we still don’t have a clear doctrine of law and gospel in the context of Christanity and especially the Protestant faith. And all the bickering in and around the SDA church is precisely because of this failure.
EGW was especially excited when she perceived that it was God’s will in the 1888 fiasco to deal with this lack and define in the context the true bible doctrine of righteousness by faith in a Protestant and Adventist context. There was a lot of stumbling and bumbling on the issue by church leaders, and Jones and Waggoner were actually no better in a clear understanding than Smith and Butler. All you have to do is read material on both sides and see neither side really knew what they were talking about in the final analysis.
Adventism was built on two basic theological issues. The state of the dead, and the bible Sabbath. This, coupled with the final judgment and second coming. Seventh day Adventism highlighted the human factor in salvation, but never was clear in how the human and divine factor worked together as two parts of a complete whole.
So now we are shackled with a two fold problem, legalism and antinomianism. If you can’t not define law and gospel in parallel and contrast, you will only gender both errors. One obvious reality is the church did not and would not openly accept and articulate the doctrine of original sin, and without this tenet of the Christian faith, you can not possibly state or define sin and the atonement. The value of the atonement is diminished to a superficial level when it is simply limited to willful and known sin.
Kevin Paulson claims we are not born sinners. The whole church should have been scandalized by such an inane and childish statement, but it only affirms what I have stated above. Adventism can not define sin and atonement.
So we bicker about the fingers and toes of salvation and ignore and/or deny the heart of the matter. Let the church leaders affirm that we are born guilty, condemned and lost, not because of our choice, but because of Adam’s choice. If they refuse to do this, eventually the SDA church will self destruct as it is in the process of doing and has been doing for several decades.
Small wonder Jesus defines the church as “poor, blind, and naked”. Jesus is simply telling us we as a church are ignorant while claiming a high level of enlightenment and no real progress can be expected until the reality is at least considered. Like Nicodemus, the church must “listen and learn”, and if not, the outcome has been predicted and will certainly become the reality.
It is impossible to have a full understanding and dissemination of truth when the information is being presented from only one side. Another voice of opinion, even a dissenting voice, is necessary.
I don’t believe every article and comment on AToday, just as I don’t believe every comment on Fox News or conservative talk radio, but I believe both are necessary to keep both sides more honest.
Adventist Today presents a rational and usually well-researched alternate opinion and it must necessarily be continued and supported.
I don’t object to your comment, Richard. A-today is like a big SS class where everyone can make a comment.
If we consider what Rome has always contended about Protestantism, we may be able to see what is happening and will finally lead to the final end the bible predicted.
Rome has always considered Protestantism a novelty with a very limited view of salvation and less than adequate explanation of bible truth. They can point to the many denominations in Protestantism to affirm that the spirituality of Protestantism is not a uniting spirit, but a divisive spirit. Rome also considers herself as God ordained to explain the bible and all the relevant truths for salvation.
Sad to say, at the present time, even the SDA church has taken a view of scripture that clearly plays into the hands of Rome. When we claim we don’t know what the bible teaches or means in any part of it, we open the door for Rome. So, if we have no concensus on creation, male headship, how to worship, how to dress, the Gay movement…..etc, Rome will simply say, “Of course you don’t, you don’t know what truth is nor how to interpret scripture. But we do. And more than a few people will opt for this affirmation of authority since we claim we don’t know.
People are looking for some viable authority to explain every aspect of life. Civil law, religion, finance…..etc.
If the bible is not clear to the common man, just as Rome claims, then we are affirming the same thing by claiming we don’t know what the bible means on these given issues.
Protestantism is self destructing and the SDA church is following in the same path. If we can’t define male headship by way of scripture, you can be sure that Rome can. In which case, Rome can claim we don’t know what we are talking about concerning the Sabbath day, either.
So the world is looking for some authority to bring unity into the world. And Rome is now assuming this authority. If we continue to attack the bible in the SDA church, then we also admit we have no viable revelation of truth to build on that we can understand.
And yet, many SDA thought leaders will tell us the bible is not clear on many of these issues, and sow seeds of doubt about biblical authority based on obscurity.
Edwin,
“The percentage of those who leave the faith is climbing to all-time highs, and prominent leaders seem intent on moving us back to one of the most dissonant and controversial Adventist eras in our historic existence.”
I would to ask a question in reference to “those who leave the faith”: what “faith” are you referring to here? I have read (I’m not sure where I read this, so please don’t ask for text citing) that those “who leave the Adventist church” are also leaving their faith in Jesus and the Bible. Is this what you mean when you write “leave the faith”?
I’m referring to the “Advent Faith,” the culture and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Some have suggested that those who leave Adventism actually are more prone to leave Christianity altogether, more so than those who leave other denominations. I have no figures to support such a phenomenon, but do not discount the possibility that it may be unfortunately true….
Edwin,
Thank you.
I truly believe that any denomination which adheres to Bible Truth and not interpret Scripture in an attempt to justify some personal agenda would be blessed by God. This is what I would like to see, not only for Adventism but also for other denominations; after all, it’s all about spreading the Good news of our Salvation through Jesus Christ. God bless you.
In many cases, it goes something like this, first they attack EGW, then they attack the bible, and finally they leave Christanity altogether. I have seen it more than a few times. But of course, this is not the only format. It is just one general trend. After attacking EGW, some stay around for a long time. It may well depend on how their attack on EGW affects their influence and/or standing in the church. And for some, their financial situation is tied to the church, and so they don’t leave.
Some leave and go to another denomination, but in some cases, they soon see other churches are not satisfactory to fit their own spirituality, so they don’t really find a strong tie or fellowship there. Some drift off and give up religion altogether. There is no set format, but as a general rule, antagonism to EGW is often the key that genders these various responses. Her writings are still the most influencial and authoritive in defining the SDA faith.
If you see her positions are fundamentally and basically biblical, you will have no problem being a SDA. If not, then the outcome is equally clear that there must eventually be a separation. In the end, this is non-negotiable. She defines the church in what she considers a biblical format. It is not EGW vs. the bible. It is EGW as she sees and explains bible truth. She never sees herself contrary to the bible, and neither do church members who embrace and support her self proclaimed bible truth.
I am familiar with all the research on this topic and have directed several of the surveys. Since 1980, I have personally interviewed more than 1,000 former Church members. The vast majority continue to be Christians and hold to the basic beliefs of the Adventist faith. Very few give up on Jesus or His teachings. They are tired of “the games church people play,” the frustrations of organized religion that do not seem to mean much when faced with major life events. They do not leave the faith as much as they adjust the way they relate to the traditions and structures of religion. The data show they are actually less likely to leave Christianity.
May the following article furnish some insight as to departures from the SDA church.
http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story2372-why-you-really-left-the-church
Monte,
Thank you for the information. Yes, there are many contributing factors which cause people to leave religious denominations; but those who continue in believing in Jesus have the “foundation” which God Himself has laid in their hearts. Many are raised in their respective denominations but have no understanding of who Jesus Christ is, or even have a need to know Him; at least until some disaster hits them. The “basic beliefs of the Adventist faith” must be that which is according to the Scriptures, otherwise those who leave can take nothing away but resentment. Therefore, True Bible un-adulterated Faith and Doctrine is where we all should be grounded.
There is a basic reason many leave the SDA church, and it is this. The church has been attacking the law theologically for decades. And here is how it is done.
We are told we are not saved by keeping the law. This statement requires considerable qualification, and in a certain context, it is true. But in a more comprehensive biblical context, it is false. And since there is no definitive explanation of how it is true, and how it is not, the final result is many finally accept a non-biblical view of law and gospel.
While no one can keep the law to pay for their sins and/or merit the favor of God, it does not mean obedience to the law is not necessary for salvation and freedom from the condemnation of the law.
A man speeding down the highway and breaking the speed limit may well get a ticket that he has no means to pay. Just because some one else is willing to pay his fine, does not release him from the condemnation of the law unless he also stops speeding. So there are two factors to be free from the condemnation of the law. The fine must be paid, and disobedience must be abandon.
Just so, a person is free from the condemnation of God’s law when he accepts the atonement of Christ. But that person must also obey the law or they are still under the laws condemnation. And to tell people you don’t have to obey the law to be saved, is a blatant lie.
Some would say, “Well, we obey the law because we are already saved.” Wrong. You are not saved until you obey the law. Our obedience saves us from the condemnation of the law. But not unless it is coupled with the atonement of Christ. Thus, salvation has two factors. A divine factor and a human factor. The SDA church has continually undermined the human factor to the point that many see no real value in obedience as far as salvation is concerned, and thus the real dynamic of motivation is removed and people slowly abandon the bible faith because of a faulty SDA theology of law and gospel.
There is no legal merit to earn heaven by any human response. But there is moral value that has legal implications. God will never impute the legal and meritorious value of Christ’s atonement to anyone who will not unite themselves to Christ and obey His word. Thus, the legal and moral aspects of salvation make up a complete whole as the human and divine are united.
Whether the SDA church becomes the final antichrist movement is yet to be seen. But it is certainly in the process of becoming this reality if there is no viable dynamic repentance for all the false doctrine advocated through out the denomination.
Bill, without an ecclesiastical law degree, getting to heaven apparently can’t happen. The fine print, the part that “takes away,” is so finely convoluted, obviously, us ordinary folk, me, that is, don’t have a clue what meaning there is in what you just wrote. I’m just going to reread the Sermon on the Mount to revive my spirit. It is understood by dummies like me. In the vernacular it could be called:”Heavenly Highway for Dummies.”
Bugs, what is very plain and obvious to some, is equally obscure to others. Precisely why the bickering about male headship vs. WO. Male headship is very clear to some. It is no obscure non-definable concept in the bible. Others see it differently.
What people are experiencing in a religious context all over the world on every issue, is why the early church opted for church authority to explain and define scripture. It created unity at least on some level. And any who opposed the church was murdered.
So, I stated everything happening in the world in religion, politics and economics is playing right into the hands of Rome. People look for some authority to bring some sense of unity in this world of total confusion. And Rome is more than willing to accept this role.
This is not because the bible is obscure. It is because sinful man refuses to give up convoluted ideas with massive doses of affirmation from each other that “I’m OK, and you’re OK.” Let’s not rock the boat. How much longer any one will be able to witness openly without being confronted by civil law is not known. But the format for this reality is very present and very obvious.
That Cain always kills Abel may be the one and only final proof of who is a true bible believer and who is not. So the wicked always attack the righteous and not the other way around. This is especially the norm in the new covenant dispensation.
And according to prophecy, this is surely coming in the USA. And it may well be much closer than we expect.
It’s not what it appears to be. The outward manifestation of any good or evil reveals the heart of man. Has anyone considered the following Scripture passages: Isa. 3:10-12; Rev. 2:20-23? So who or what is really behind all this? And, no, I’m not referring to women in general; but the one inside, causing God’s people to err.
“Just so, a person is free from the condemnation of God’s law when he accepts the atonement of Christ. But that person must also obey the law or they are still under the laws condemnation. And to tell people you don’t have to obey the law to be saved, is a blatant lie”
Bill, in the presentation of your Gospel you have failed to distinguish between the Gospel and its fruits. You have not presented the Gospel as an objective truth finished in Christ, rather you include law-keeping as a requirement for salvation. This implies that salvation is not by faith alone, but by faith plus law keeping. Thus, good works will eventually decide whether or not we deserve heaven. Your view does not agree with the 1888 message of Righteousness by Faith which presented Christ as a Savior from all and every aspect of sin. Thus, in Christ we are “made the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:21).
Fatherdoc, I have presented the true bible position on salvation in its full and comprehensive presentation in scripture. The point is simply, unless you respond to the “gospel” in a biblical format, you are simply not saved. But I won’t “bicker” with you on this point, only to point out that what you contend for is exactly and precisely why Adventism today is not biblical. EGW agrees with me and the bible. Tell me how you and the church can support EGW if you deny her quote.
“When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened, and every man shall be judged according to the things written in the books, then the tables of stone, hidden by God until that day, will be presented before the world as the standard of righteousness. Then men and women will see that the prerequisite of their salvation is obedience to the perfect law of God. None will find excuse for sin. By the righteous principles of that law, men will receive their sentence of life or of death (The Review and Herald, January 28, 1909). 1BC 1109.4”
The church presently advocates a false application of the gospel that you and many others have embraced contrary to scripture and EGW.
Bill,
Excuse me, but I have to interrupt.
“When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened, and every man shall be judged according to the things written in the books, then the tables of stone, hidden by God until that day, will be presented before the world as the standard of righteousness.”
“then the tables of stone, hidden by God until that day”: I have to say, this does not make sense. What this is saying is that God has hidden His law from man all these thousands of years and now wants to condemn everyone for not knowing the law.
“Then men and women will see that the prerequisite of their salvation is obedience to the perfect law of God. None will find excuse for sin. By the righteous principles of that law, men will receive their sentence of life or of death.” Nor does this make sense. The law was kept from man and then they are sentenced to death for being disobedient to the law?
Bill, Christ’s doing and dying is a finished work. The 1888 message presented Christ as a Savior from all and every aspect of Sin. This includes justification, sanctification, and glorification all was finished at the cross. Christ provided not only a legal redemption from sin’s guilt and punishment, but also redemption from the power and dominion of sin. By faith in Christ the “substance” the believer” hopes for” includes total victory over sin (cf. Heb. 11:1). This, is not man’s work that is me keeping the law. “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2:1). Rather, it is the result of Christ in me (Col. 1:26, 17). Christ summarized the Law as love for God and love for neighbor, thus, love is a fulfilling of the law. The law of love is a revelation of God’s character. With Christ in me, his character becomes my character. Love of God and love of neighbor becomes who I am by nature. It is not my work of law keeping that accomplishes this rather it is the fruit of the Gospel. This 1888 message would have resulted in the finishing of the work. It was identified with “the cleansing of the sanctuary;” “the blotting out of sin;” “the final atonement;” and the Bride making herself “ready” for the “marriage of the Lamb.” This message would have resulted in the latter rain and loud cry. It was to prepare a people for the second coming. The Church’s over –emphasis and incorrect preaching of the law robbed of the latter rain and loud cry and delayed the second coming.
As a matter of fact, Fatherdoc, your whole theory is simply spiritualistic mysticism. You deny the identity of the believer and claim Christ gets inside the believer and keeps the law for him. Again, totally outside the true meaning of sanctification and how the Holy Spirit works. So, once again, EGW clearly states what and how the Holy Spirit accomplishes our sanctification, which is not only a fruit of the gospel, but and inherent part of salvation itself.
” The Spirit of God is not commissioned to do our part of the work, either in willing or doing. It is the work of the human agent to co-operate with divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God’s will, the grace of Christ is supplied to co-operate with our resolve. But it is not to be a substitute to do our work,—to work in spite of our resolutions and actions. Therefore our success in the Christian life will not be because of an abundance of light and evidence, but will depend upon our acceptance of the light given, upon our rousing the energies, upon our acknowledging the light, and upon our co-operating with the heavenly ministers appointed of God to work for the salvation of the soul. BEcho November 1, 1893, par. 6″
Also….
“The Lord calls upon all who think they know what faith is, to be sure that they are not pulling with only one oar, that their little bark is not going round and round, making no progress at all. Faith without intelligent works is dead, being alone. Faith in the healing power of God will not save unless it is combined with good works. Good works and faith are the two oars we need to use. 20MR 8.2”
And as for the 2 tables of stone Daniel asks about, it is this. When the ark was taken and hid by Jeremiah, the law was taken to heaven and will be presented at the second coming as God’s eternal moral law. This is no “new” revelation, but an affirmation of what is recorded in the bible for all to see and know in this present era of new covenant ministry. Men have attack and rejected the law as non-applicable to new testament believers. And then they will see they have rejected God’s testimony against their duplicity.
Spiritualistic mysticism has permeated Adventism and destroyed the objective reality of human accountability and substituted a non-definable sanctification that negates the moral accountability of man to “save himself” by responding to the bible gospel and escape condemnation, guilt and death by obedience to God’s will.
Adventism is becoming Satan’s right hand instrumentality to convolute bible truth and set up his own theories of “Universal salvation” by destroying the human factor in salvation and making God solely responsible for sin and redemption.
Bill,
Yes, I am aware that the Stone Tablets of the Law are recorded in the Bible, but it was the wording of that statement which appeared to imply the law has been “hidden”.
“….moral accountability of man to “save himself” by responding to the bible gospel and escape condemnation, guilt and death by obedience to God’s will.” Yes, I know that we are responsible and accountable for our salvation in that everyone will at one point in their life experience God calling them through His Son Jesus Christ. I would also like to mention that we also see that “9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” 1 John 3:9. And some say that if this attribute of God is in us, then we do not have free will, then consider this: “8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.” Ps. 40:8. Also: “33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jer. 31:33, 34.
The fact that we can still sin even after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is evidence that the “tares” are still growing together with the wheat. “Who will deliver me from this body of sin?” I thank Jesus Christ, He will deliver me.
We also see throughout the NT that Jesus always did the will of His Father. We are tempted when we are lead by the evil desires of our sinful heart. But if we are born of God and are lead by the Spirit of God, we cannot sin. This is what every “born-again” child of God wants, to do the will of God; and they rejoice in this. Yes, we will keep the commandments of God because they are in our heart, we do this by the Spirit of Christ in us.
One thing is for certain: I would rather have “the mind of Christ” and be lead by Him, than live in misery through so-called “free will”. I have had enough of this so-called “fee will”; look where it’s got us! “I would rather be a door keeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness”.
“At the present time the conservative element of the Church is not at all secretive about the fact that it prefers to give far more priority to “Holy Writ” than to the Book of Nature, or science.”
Isn’t that the essence of the gospel — that we give more credence to Scripture than to man made theories? Or is it merely naivete to believe God’s Word?
Bill, what I have presented to you is a brief summary of the 1888 message of Christ our Righteous. Notice the title of the 1888 message: “Christ our Righteous”. Consider these texts:
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” 1 col. 1:27
“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” Gal.2:20
Yes at conversion Christ get inside the believer. Paul calls this a mystery. I did not say that Christ keeps the law for him. At conversion Christ transforms, (a new creation) so that Christ character of love becomes the believer’s character.
Please explain the 1888 message on Christ our Righteous is spiritualistic mysticism?
“Yes at conversion Christ get inside the believer.”
This is spiritualistic mysticism. Christ gets inside no one. He is in heaven as our Substitute and Surety and Representative before the Father. And this is the only concept of “Christ our righteousness” that has any validity in scripture.
The Holy Spirit indwells the believer, but the Holy Spirit is not Christ. He is Christ’s representative. You convolute the Trinity and mix their identities in mass confusion.
Paul says, “For me to live is Christ”. He simply means he is so motivated by the gospel that his whole purpose is to exhalt and honor Christ. And this is what it means, “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
But I confess your view is pretty typical of how SDA’s try to explain these concepts by Paul. Another quote is this, “The love of Christ constraineth us.” That is, as we understand the love of Christ, we are motivated to abandon sin and seek to honor Him by obedience.
The church has corrupted the bible beyond recognition. Spiritualism is the norm in Adventism. Spiritualism means that objective truths are spiritualized away in a maze of confusion that has no affinity to bible truth.
This debate about male headship vs. WO is typical. Those who support WO spiritualize away clear and definitive statements of truth, and opt for ambiguous ideas with no substancial meaning. And then claim the bible can not be understood and not definitive enough to know what it means or how we are to understand what is said.
This is Spiritualism in action in the SDA church.
Bill,
Yes, the Holy Spirit is sent into our hearts when we accept Jesus Christ our Savior. And yes, Jesus is with God the Father in Heaven interceding on our behalf.
One question: The Holy Spirit works in our heart to transform us into the image (likeness) of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; He brings to us things from Jesus; He Testifies of Jesus; He speaks the Words of Jesus to our heart; He is One with Jesus; Jesus has become the “Life giving Spirit”; the kingdom of God is within you; “you are the Temple of God”; “where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”; “I (Jesus) go to prepare a place for you,…. so that where I am you may be also” John 14:
Where is Heaven and what is that “place” (John 14) which He is preparing for us, so that where He is we may be also?
The new Jerusalem where Jesus ministers in our behalf, and the place He leaves to come and get His people.
Bill,
Yes, “the Heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all”.
In John 14:2 we read: “I go to prepare a place for you”. The Greek for “for you” is ὑμῖν, (humin); to (with or by) you. Strong’s 5213. In verse 4 Jesus tells them: “And where I go you know, and the way you know”. He later explains that He is in the Father and the Father in Him. The “cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary” cannot be a place in God Himself, or the place of His Presence. Although Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven, that is, God’s presence, because “there was found no place for them”, there is nothing in God which needs cleansing. He is not at enmity with us. He has done nothing wrong. Therefore, that “place” which must be prepared, so that we can be with God, is our heart. The Spirit of Christ is working in our hearts to transform us into His likeness, so that “where He is we will be also”.
You wrote in response to Fatherdoc: “Christ gets inside no one.” Let me point out these Scripture passages out:
“6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” Gal.4:6, 7.
“14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” Rom. 8:14, 15
“9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” Rom.8:9-11.
“26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.” Rom. 8:26, 27
What you write in regards to the Law, is good. You point out obedience to the Law. The Law by which we should live, is good. And yes, only those who obey the Law will be in Heaven. And everyone who breaks one commandment is guilty of breaking all. And if they are transgressors of the Law, they deserve the penalty which is death. This is the condemnation of those who do not accept Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
So, keep up the good work, Bill, because some people need to know the facts—where everyone stands.
Simply put Daniel, the Holy Spirit is not Christ. He is the third member of the Godhead.
I could only interpret your post as some non-biblical mysticism that equates the Holy Spirit and Christ as being one and the same. That may not have been your intent. But if you read again what you have posted, you may see why I come to this conclusion.
Bill,
No, my intent was not to deny the Triune attributes of God.
Throughout the whole Bible we can see the Spiritual attributes of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Before the Jesus came to dwell in the body, which was prepared for Him, He was the Word of God. We read in many places throughout the NT that Jesus Christ is still the Word of God, Who is a “discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”; “And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.” “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
The Oneness of the Son of God with the Father and Holy Spirit is described by Jesus Himself and also Paul: “20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,”; “9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.”; “10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.”; “18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.” (John 14:18) “23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” (John 14:23) “20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” (Rev. 3:20)
The Oneness of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, with God the Father and the Holy Spirit is described again in Revelation 20:11-15; 21:5, 6, the One Who sits of the Great white throne: “ And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.”
I don’t want to re-print the NT here, but there is much more to know about Jesus Christ.
You write that there is “Spiritualism in action in the SDA church.”; I see the opposite, because I have spoken with some Adventists who say that God has a physical body, and do not understand that God is Spirit, Who is not bound by His physical creation. The whole creation cannot contain Him. (1 Kings 8:27; Isa. 66:1, 2).
The belief that Jesus Christ still has a physical body, other than His people, the Body of Christ, is not true.
“One of Adventist Today’s serious reasons for existence is to keep the lines of communication open among members of major ideological preferences, in creative ways that constantly transcend the past to present the original gospel in ways that speak eloquently to generations today.”
A glittering generality? Major theological preferences? What are they? Who besides Ed and Erv embrace that theory? More substance to that claim, Ed, please.
“The belief that Jesus Christ still has a physical body, other than His people, the Body of Christ, is not true.”
Right or wrong, you are not in harmony with the SDA position on the Trinity, nor is your view endorsed by EGW. Jesus went to great lengths to affirm His physical being to His disciples after His resurrection. I’ll only quote one concept from Acts !.
“This same Jesus you have seen taken up into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.” vs. 11.
This is typical of the many affirmation of the physical Christ who will remain physical throughout eternity by His own choice.
EGW commenting on this issue said….
” There is a personal God, the Father; there is a personal Christ, the Son. And “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:1-3). 1SM 293.1″
Only the Holy Spirit has no form that we can discern. But the Father and Son do. While the church is the body of Christ that represents Him on this earth, this idea is used in the context of Jesus being the head of the Church. To stretch this thought to conclude that Jesus has no personal physical body except the church will not fit all that the bible says about this concept. The whole illustration that Jesus is the head, and the church is the body in a physical sense, would create a real strange image in our mind of a physical headless church, and a physical bodyless Christ.
You may to rethink your present idea of what the bible teaches about the Trinity as individual persons.
Bill,
“Only the Holy Spirit has no form that we can discern. But the Father and Son do.” The “form” you write of is still not a physical form. Jesus says Himself that “no one has seen God at any time”. He says “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.” This: “no one has seen God at any time”, also refers to Himself before He came in the flesh; people have heard His words, as Moses did, or through the Spirit in their hearts, as the prophets did, and through the angels. We can hear His Words but we cannot see them. Jesus said: “63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63.
“13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen” 1 Timothy 6:13-16. Read all verse.
Your reference to Jesus being taken up into Heaven as the apostles watched is one of the most disputed and misunderstood subjects in regards to what happens to the physical body at the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is why Paul went into great detail in 1 Cor. 15:35-58 to explain this reality. Also in 1 Thess. 4:13-18.
“The whole illustration that Jesus is the head, and the church is the body in a physical sense, would create a real strange image in our mind of a physical headless church, and a physical bodyless Christ.” I was not referring to the “body of Christ” in a physical sense, but rather the people who are part of the “body of Christ”, which describes those who are “born-again” children of God, the New Creation within man, the Spiritual sons of God. They are within the Spiritual Kingdom of God. And, yes, it is here, on this earth. And, no, the Spiritual Body of Christ is not “headless”, as you put it.
The Trinity in my understanding does not negate the truth, but rather I see the connectedness of all members within the Godhead. I have shown this through the Scripture passages which I presented. They show how the Word, Jesus Christ, is connected with the Holy Spirit: “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
Sorry Daniel. To me and others, it is still mystical spiritualism that denies objective realities. We are in the image of God. God the Father has hands and feet just like we do. He is covered in a cloud of glory and so He is not seen. I personally reject your concept as being what I have already stated. Spiritualistic mysticism that spiritualizes away objective truth and puts in its place non-definable images with no real definition.
Jesus is a person with a discernable form. God the Father is a person with a discernable form. And we are created in their image with a discernable form.
Bill,
Before the whole physical creation, what form did God have? Or has God now taken on the form of a creature? What Image would you ascribe to God before all other things came into existence? And, is God bound by the physical realm? How do you limit God?
Daniel, you ask all kinds of non-questions and create a false dilemma. God has limited Himself and so I don’t need to.
God made the human family in His own image. Both physical and spiritual. What He may have been in all eternity is none of our business. It is not told us in the bible.
So I suggest you should not spiritualize away what has been clearly stated in the bible. “This same Jesus” a physical human being, “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him to into heaven.” A physical human being.
The bible goes to great lengths to affirm that Jesus is a physical person after His resurrection. And there is an important reason for this. Since we don’t actually see many things that the bible has affirmed, it is important for the bible to affirm them clearly so there will no confusion in the matter.
Bible Adventism was ordained for the most part for this very reason. There is a literal and physical Jesus. There is a literal and physical heaven. There is a literal and physical judgment that takes place in heaven before the literal and physical return of Jesus for His literal and physical people.
Protestantism had begun to spiritualize away many of these truths in a maze of mysticism that had been carried over from Babylon. So in EGW’s first vision she states what she sees. Flowers, plants, trees, houses, grass and many other physical things to affirm a real and physical heaven.
You claim the church is Christ’s body and He is the head. And you state the church is the only body He has. So you misuse the illustrate of Christ and His church to deny a literal Christ with a literal body.
If I have misunderstood this issue. I am happy to have you correct me about what you believe. Sometimes we all have to qualify and re-qualify what we mean so we can be clearly understood on any given issue.
Bill,
God has not limited Himself, man has limited Him.
God’s Image is Spiritual, not physical.
Jesus ascended to God who is Spirit. Flesh and blood has no part in the Spiritual Kingdom of God.
Jesus’ body after the resurrection was indeed physical. But what happened to His body during the ascension to God His Father is another matter which I will not go into again.
Bible Adventism was not ordained to explain the literal and physical Jesus, Paul was.
There was a literal physical Jesus. There is now a literal Spiritual Jesus. There is a literal physical universe. There is a literal Spiritual Heaven. There is no literal physical judgment in Heaven; it is a Spiritual judgment; the physical has nothing to do with it. The physical did not sin, the soul has sinned. Jesus will not return in a physical body; but the great deception will be he who does come in a physical body—the anti-christ.
EGW saw what she imagined in her own heart. There is no physical Heaven. No man has seen what God is preparing for those who Love Him.
The only literal body of Christ on earth is His “Called out ones”, who are also the Spiritual Body of Christ. Read the Bible, I cannot explain it any other way.
Any more “re-qualifying” and I will be going round in circles. There are no writings on earth which can explain Spiritual matters more accurately than the Holy Scriptures. I am wasting my time!
Flesh is a product of the Earth. Beyond the Earth is the Unknown. We, through Science, know it is impossible for the Flesh to survive outside our gravity zone. Attempting to
put a physical framework on the image of God is an impossible exercise. Jesus while on Earth, after the cross was able, through His NATURE, to cause man to witness His supernatural being, to be seen, and to enter rooms with no open door.^^^^^ GOD IS A SPIRIT^^^^^. The image mankind simulates the GODHEAD is the intellectual spiritual nature.
You can’t and will never view God the Father. However, spiritually, we discern His presence. John 1:14 “The WORD (JESUS CHRIST) was made flesh”. Jesus departed the Earth in Spirit form. He will return in Spirit form. HE restores our souls (spiritually), in His eternal essence. His methods of transiting the Cosmos is as He desires, instantaneous if desired. He is ALMIGHTY. Our habitable universe is over 90% Black Matter, of which we know nothing. Continually, new created matter,is forming other parallel universes, through the BLACK HOLES. How do i know this?? i am not a scientist.
Earl,
Very well put!
I’m not sure about the “Continually, new created matter, is forming other parallel universes”, though?
Will not God’s Eternal purpose be accomplished in this creation, this universe? I don’t see any reason for any other “worlds”, as some see it. I don’t see this in the Bible, but maybe you do?
I just wanted to comment on a part of an article that appears to be in error. It states that “both the Southern Baptists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses in recent times moved toward a centralization of conservative power, and the growth of both has been seriously compromised.” While it is true that the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has had a dramatic drop in membership both in the US and abroad, the Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses (JWs) have continued to grow. The SBC dropped below 16 million to 15 million in the US in less than 5 years, and has recently published continued membership declined. The JW’s on the other hand, reported a 2% increase in membership last year in the US, with even bigger percentage growth in other countries. (This is in compares to the Assembly of God membership which only posted a 1% increase. The last 5 Yearbooks of American and Canadian Churches listed the JWs in 3 of the annual yearbooks as the fastest growing group in the US by percentage, and twice in 2nd place. In contrast the SBC was listed with a 1-2% declines.) While growth has slowed down in Europe, the Witnesses still continue to grow, while other churches, including Evangelical groups, have stagnant or declining membership stats. So JWs have continued to grow, in spite of their very conservative method of counting members, which includes only those who actively preach and report their preaching, and not just those who may regularly attend their Bible meetings.