Trans-European Division Responds to Brexit Vote
From ANN and Trans-European Division, June 30, 2016 On June 23 the British people voted by a margin of 3.8 percent to leave the European Union. With a turnout of 72 percent, 51.9 percent of the electorate made the historic decision, changing 43 years of European history since the United Kingdom joined the European Community in 1973.
Following the exit vote, Trans-European Division (TED) stewardship director, David Neal, noted, “The honest, Bible believing Adventist is conflicted. For sure, the prophetic word stands. But neither can he/she be ready and willing to stand with those who are fearful of ‘the other’, whose actions in word and deed border on zenophobia. As valid as Daniel 2 is, without question, Christ’s parable of the Good Samaritan is of equal consideration. The Brexit campaign completely ignored this value.”
In an impassioned plea, Sweeney, whose parents were themselves migrants in the 1970’s, stated, “Europe will always be divided in one way or another, however, we have a Christian responsibility to show our love for all people who in political debates are depersonalized and labelled as ‘migrants’, ‘economic refugees’ etc. We may not share the language, culture, or ethnicity. However, every man woman and child are our brothers and sisters who Christ loves and died to save.”
“As officers, we are studying the implications that this vote will have on the operation of the TED Office in achieving our mission in Europe,” stated TED president, Raafat Kamal (pictured here leading a discussing during the division’s 2016 Spring Meetings). “There will be clearly financial and operational implications for us to consider.”
He equally notes that the TED is not just multi-lingual but multi-currency.
“The composition of Europe has changed over the years both inside and outside the church. The two European Divisions have equally changed several times in terms of size and structure during their history. Change of itself is not a problem. We must simply find the best way to react to the change.” He noted, “It may even be that in such times of uncertainty people may look more to faith based solutions – a security that as Adventists we can certainly provide.”
The uncertainty within the various financial markets may cause some issues for the mission of the Church, states Nenad Jepuranovic, TED Treasurer. He sees the biggest financial risk as the fluctuating exchange rate between the 12 different currencies used in the 22 countries that make up the TED.
“Over the past few years, our tithe income in local currencies has been steadily increasing,” Jepuranovic noted. “However, the economic turbulence in the European markets in the last two years, has meant that we have borne the brunt of adverse exchange rates that have reduced our tithe income in UK£ by 9.6%.” This has been balanced in part by US/UK exchange rates.
What of the future? “The latest predictions for the European markets are at best uncertain, but over the past few years the TED has built up sufficient reserves to cover economically volatile periods such as those that we may encounter in the next few months.” Nevertheless, Jepuranovic is searching for ways to “improve our efficiency and effectiveness to best serve the needs of our territory.”
Retiring shortly as treasurer for the Church in the UK & Ireland, Victor Pilmoor finds himself concerned with the issues of fraternity. Writing in his monthly blog he states, “Whether one looks at the goal of inclusiveness among the nations of Europe, the freedom of party goers in Orlando, and good will in the Yorkshire town of Batley [where a minister of parliament campaigning for ‘remain’ was cold-bloodedly murdered], our societies are clearly fragmented. The arguments that rage, dwell on fear and the forces of self-interest.”
This, he notes has led to, “a loss of fraternity, an unwillingness by many in society to take the abundant view that there is room for all of us, that life is not a game of winners and losers.” He adds that, “uncompromising fear-ridden fundamentalism has filled the hearts of many to the point where self-preservation has become the object of national and religious influence.”
He concludes with, “By contrast we could offer a world view that acknowledges the generosity of God offering grace and sustenance for all. A perspective that our lives are to honor what God gives us, to steward the abilities and powers with which we are endowed for purposes greater than ourselves.”
The “Brexit” issue was way more complex than this article presents. To narrow it to sound like a non-compassionate immigration issue is a gross oversimplification.
“… whose actions in word and deed border on zenophobia…”
I hate it when Adventists buy into the PC language and attitudes of the left. There’s nothing wrong with being proud of one’s country, in having defined protected borders and a belief in nationalism. The influx of muslims into France and England has transformed areas into places the police dare not go. Muslims aren’t assimilating in those countries or here in the USA. Yes, we were founded on a nation of immigrants, but generation after generation of immigrants assimilated and wanted to be part of our nation, speak our language. Not have separate enclaves where outsiders aren’t welcome and where sharia law is practiced.
The Brexit vote is largely a response by people who are tired of what’s happening to their country. It’s not xenophobia (correct spelling).
It’s typical of the left when they can’t win an argument based on the the facts to demonize the opposition and often the quickest way to do that is to yell “racism” because so many are afraid to stand up for themselves and fight back.
It’s past time to have the courage to stand up for our beliefs and throw it back in the faces of those who would destroy us.
Oh, you must be talking about places like Chinatown, eh?
I find it equally frustrating when other Adventists write off the clear call of the Gospel to embrace the values of “in Christ there is no slave or free, Jew or Gentile, male or female” etc. as just an adaption to left politics or political correctness. That is an old and tired response, and one that ignores the fact that are primary citizenship is in God’s Kingdom, the values of the Kingdom take priority, and we are to live out that reality regardless of the particular national setting in which we may be living.
We must remember that the Jesuit Order play BOTH sides of the isle when it comes to politics. All this is about world dominate by the Vatican, it’s really not about the UK leaving the EU! The Vatican is in a hurry for world dominance and whatever they can do to usher it in sooner rather than later, the better for them, so they think! So let’s not get to caught up in being politically correct or upset about immigration or anything else. Our main focus as a Movement SHOULD BE how fast we can spread the gospel so we can go home!!! Remember it’s the spreading of the gospel to ALL the world that will cause the end of the world to come upon our planet, see how powerful spreading the gospel is? So that should be our focus not on words and their usages and such unimportant issues like that. PLEASE BRETHREN, let us not allow satan to get us caught up in unimportant issues. What our commission and calling is, is what our focus should be. Let us be about our Father’s BUSINESS!!!
I thoroughly agree with you, Rosita. Clearly, the shaking is on. When prophecy is playing out, instead of becoming part of the herd which know little and care less about the import of what is unfolding, we ought to be giving the gospel trumpet the sure sound, declaring the real meaning and seeking to prepare hearts to follow God.
The Bible clearly states” They shall not cleave one to another…” Do we believe according to the head of the division, that God changes His mind and the events of history along with it?
But there is something really special in this for SDAs in this division. The power play based on their MONEY, that made them a force against the president of Gen Con in the matter of WO, and made them think they could act like wealthy corporate CEO’s against God’s established order is disappearing before their eyes; retribution has been swift; indeed, prophecy fulfilling has components never envisaged by a church which has gone to sleep. THE SHAKING IS ON WITH FORCE. This was one of the divisions seeking to force the African and Caribbean divisions to vote in favour. Now they are crying as to what this will mean.
My reply is that the truly faithful will now be seen.
God is shaking the earth so that His people will awake out of their stupor. Britain is becoming seriously nationalistic and this holds implications for SDAdventism and its entire operation in all these countries: jobs, housing, education, treatment of foreigners, even if they belong to the household of faith, loss of income/savings/ investments. The tithe money, hitherto used to advance the ambitions of men, is quickly becoming a snare. My Jesus is about to come. We need to really preach for the finishing of the work. Blessings!
I listened to a Lebanese woman who told what happened to Lebanon. It was a Christian nation open to all people and multicultural. They were taken over by Islamists and it has become a battleground and has lost its freedom of religion. France and Great Brittian are following the same path.
I appreciate all of the insightful comments above. As a Britisher who voted BREXIT I have been surprised and shocked to discover how many UK Adventists were fervently, and in some cases, ferociously in favour of Remaining in the EU. One esteemed UK church leader at GC even signed a petition, among over two millions, to have a second referendum since the first didn’t live up to their expectations. I have been subjected to some unpleasant derision and challenges on my position – to put it mildly – from those who heavily criticised the BREXITERs for the same unpleasantness some exhibited. People who live in glass houses should beware of throwing stones. When you point an accusatory finger at anyone check if all other four fingers are not pointing at yourself. Sweeney or Ian Sweeney has just been re-elected at the President of the British Union Conference. There is another pastor Sweeney. His brother Cyril who was a departmental leader at the BUC in the previous administration.
It has become endemic with the PC crowd to assail anyone who wants immigration regulated to be accused of being xenophobic. Claude, I’m not a Brit but I well understand your desire not to be governed by petty rules from unelected officials in Brussels.
Incidentally, prophecy is in God’s hands and it doesn’t need to disturb us so long as our hearts are with Him in all things.
Worldly concerns will always divide us when our goals are not the same as God’s. Jesus said He did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword.
Paragraph 3: Who is Sweeney?
Don’t drink the Xenophobe cool-aid. National sovereignty, border control, self-rule are not xenophobic.
The biggest challenge for Adventism will always be, “Do we ignore history and facts- and rewrite history more conveniently for ourselves – or do we ‘adjust’ the interpretation of prophecy every time history takes a detour from what we thought and taught would happen?”
This is indeed a huge dilemma…
“This is indeed a huge dilemma…” Prophecy is a huge dilemma for you?
Hi! Missing you at Spectrum! When will your probation end, or did it yet? We need you there to warm up the discussions a little more…
Well, regarding the prophecies, my only concern is to always be updated with the latest version,s because their interpretations have to be “adjusted” once in a while, to make them fit what is happening around the world. But not a big deal, since nowadays everything has to be “upgraded” once in a while. It secures more sales, therefore more money in the bank!
Sunfish is on probation? Did he break the spectrum, or merely bend it?
There was a time when Spectrum would expel a person for up to 2 years or so if they were disrespectful to others on a consistent basis. When someone suddenly disappeared, we could check their avatar and see what was the status. Unless I am mistaken, this happened to sufferingsunfish.
the saddest part of these comments and the story is the lack of compassion for the opposite side. The day of judgement is here! I mean judging each other. I feel compassion for the British people who see their country taken over by unfamiliar practices and beliefs that open the possibility of religious laws down the road that can take away their liberty, especially religious liberty. They see their government giving funds to men with many wives and the abuse of women and young girls. And the bombing of the rail system is still fresh and fear of the future. The US didn’t go through the bombings of WW II like Britain did, they know war on their own ground. Perhaps we are waiting for that too! And I am tired of a one-sided church reflecting the politics of one side and their own financial concerns.
But not all the immigrants are abusive and criminal–most of them are not. They long for a place of safety and to be treated with respect in return for respect. They are glad to escape war and daily threats by a vicious enemy and no one to help them; no country willing to protect them. They live and die with the hypocrisy of UN and NATO that are supposed to protect the world. They are alone–like the Christians on the hilltop not long ago–no one comes to help! They are alone. And more Muslim people are killed by their supposedly god-fearing fanatics than any other group. Yet their rich Muslim nations, obscene with luxury stand by and do nothing. Maybe they even help the fanatics. How long can this go on? What kind of world is this? And what kind of religion is this? Telling ISIS you love them is like telling the devil you love him/it.
Dr. Carson and others who wanted a place of escape set aside for the refugees in their own part of the world and help with funding was the most reasonable solution (while a coalition fought the demons).
“Dr. Carson and others who wanted a place of escape set aside for the refugees in their own part of the world and help with funding was the most reasonable solution”
Much better solution but the do gooders want nothing to to do with it.
Typically, your view matches the everyday, humdrum attitudes and behaviours of the world who have no knowledge of God. History says that Britain has sown to the wind and is overdue to reap the whirlwind. It has wreaked havoc worldwide for hundreds of years. Retribution is on the way. The same can be said for France, Spain and all the others in prophecy, which are still sucking dry the resources of other nations and who get really upset when their deeds come back to haunt them. I recall Swift’s poem, “A Modest Proposal”.
Only last week, the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 100 years ago to the day, was discussed: a most diabolical piece of work, perpetrated solely for the destruction of weaker nations, who thought that England and France had their welfare at heart…..ALL FOR WEALTH TO BE GAINED BY NEWLY DISCOVERED OIL.
Thus these two nations with the collusion of America and Russia made the Middle East all that it is today, with no regard for the millions of human beings living there. They treated them in the same manner the English country gentleman treats a fox in the hunt. As Anthony Trollope put it: “The unspeakable in hot pursuit of the uneatable.”
But….according to Daniel, the Most High rules in the kingdom of men. and gives it to whomever He wills. He said “They shall not cleave one to another…” and instead of gladly preaching that, we get involved with these affairs, take sides and divide the church along political lines instead of preaching the gospel. This is also our nemesis. The church will lose the money it put such trust in, so that it can truly be God’s.
Zenophobia. Given a little of what we know of the Greek philosopher, Zeno, I am not surprised that SDAs are a little afraid/phobic of him.
“Zeno would prove by his dialectic the non-existence of “the many.”
Benjamin Franklin Cocker, ‘Christianity and Greek Philosophy’
The concept under discussion here relates to the mystical idea that we are ‘all one in Christ Jesus,’ (as opposed to a collection of ‘ones,’ ie, the many). Seems Zeno was quite the Christian mystic after all.
As far as ‘prophetic’ implications go, I think the less said the better. It caused quite a bit of excitement in SDA circles back in the 70’s when the EU was being set up. Ten member states, uniting in common purpose. All very sinister, according to the evangelists of the day. The Vatican exerting its nefarious influence. Ten nation states, uniting…… the image of Dan 2, having ten toes. Yes, was definitely a prophetic fulfilment. Then over the years, those ten toes sprouted into twenty-something. Too many toes, to be sure.
But now, some of those toes are getting lopped off. And Britain is likely to be just the first. Greece, Italy, Spain…….. some will simply be unable to maintain membership because their financial situation is unsustainable. And the common purpose, whatever it was, will evaporate along with their ability to meet their debts.
So, if the SDA interpretation of Dan 2 ever had any meaning or accurate relevance, how can it still be said: ‘As valid as Dan 2 is…..?’ How will the Vatican cope with the virtual disintegration of its grand plan to unite Europe and the world now?
In the Keys of this Blood, there are two very enlightening chapters entitled, “Rich Man, Poor Man…” and “Beggarman, Thief”. They are most enlightening from the standpoint of one who was slated to be the youngest pope. Instead the Holy Spirit led him away from that and he became a whistleblower against the Vatican. These chapters demonstrate the papal agenda, begun by John Paul, with a view to world control. Virtually any and every situation fits this agenda, which continues, even though he is long dead. It is appealing to all popes because it carries the very real potential of being the only viable world leader with God in his pocket. This break-up will say nothing, because the real players are playing for way higher stakes than just money and power. He and his organisation, “reigneth over the kings of the earth”. Her wealth is vast and the pope presides over it all; this organisation not only deals in merchandise of all types, but also in war, in slavery and in spiritual possession of peoples – their hopes, desires and aspirations. Tell me which nation has this power. See Rev. 18: 2 – 16 and 19. So a little political posturing means nothing when for example, St. Paul’s is safely back in Catholic hands and such things.
Many excellent, thoughtful comments here. I especially appreciate Claude’s perspective and EM’s observations. Indeed, this news piece does present a very one-sided viewpoint.
Totally ignored is the very legitimate interest in self-determination and preservation of identity. Economic interests certainly favored remaining. But being dictated to by unelected unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels might not strike everyone as inclusiveness and fraternity. The rhetoric and arguments in favor of divisive political issues always appeals to self-interest and fear.
Those who condemn Brexit generally, like John Kerry, favor a borderless world with worldwide governing authorities. Welcoming immigrants whose religion calls for death to homosexuals, adulterers, and apostates; sanctions honor killings; and does not believe in religious freedom, seems like a strange position for liberals to advocate. It also strikes me as anomalous that these same folks on the left are huge advocates of personal autonomy – to the extent that it is perfectly okay to kill unborn children who will likely assimilate and become productive citizens. Why is the desire for national autonomy evil?
We should all applaud the very appropriate humor of Mr.Agafonoff in his comment “How will the Vatican cope with the virtual disintegration of its grand plan to unite Europe and the world now? Yes, indeed. I wonder how long Adventism is going to perpetuate its 19th Century obsession with absurd conspiracy theories concerning the Roman Catholic Church. It was a dark day in the history of Adventism when Ellen White read Fox’s Book of Martyrs. I continue to be amazed with the kind of stories that are still circulated among Adventists about Catholic conspiracies. I am aware that there are Adventists who need to believe these myths, but the rest of us need to stand ready to confront such paranoia with strong doses of reality. After all, this is the 21st Century, not the 16th. But you would not know that in some Adventist circles.
My dear, you will face a reality all of your own. This is the political commingling. Politics never joined anything, because greed governs all. However, religion can…and will, for a while, for a common goal, just like the allies of WWI & II. The idea is to preach the gospel and watch God go to work. Note what happened when Jesus was to be born. Mary had to be about to deliver when the command was given by the “raiser of taxes” spoken of by Daniel, to go to Bethlehem. They had no choice but to travel then. Then Jesus was born, on schedule in the very place prophecy said He would be born. So no matter how you scoff, those of us in the church who study God’s word, know it is happening and know that god will bring to pass what will astound and foever shut up scoffers.
Would Ms. Harvey care to suggest how long we have to wait to see if the current predictions about “things happening soon” actually transpires”. Would “soon” be 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years, or ?. Just wondering.
Dr. Taylor,
Let Mrs. Harvey answer your question, after you answer mine. What does this scripture mean?
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
I respond here with this:
“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” Matthew 25: 32, 33.
“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the ways which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation…” @ Peter 3: 1 – 3.
That is my answer. Hope it satisfies your curiosity….or ignorance.
This press release was not designed as a comment on brexiteers or non-brexiteers.
It was written with the idealism of Abraham Lincoln who suggested that we should not ask which side God is on, but ensure that it is we who are on God’s side.
Those familiar with local headlines will acknowledge the presence of shrill anti-immigrant sentiment.
Adventists in Britain are likely to be as divided on Brexit as the national profile. We still have to live together.
We are clear that conflict / Armageddon will be a feature of end-times. Nowhere are we encouraged to precipitate that conflict.
Our past
Victor! Good to see you again.
We miss you at Spectrum. Your comments were always refreshing and encouraging. Come and pay us a visit in the “lounge.”
The thing is, it is on because GOD has scheduled it. And there is nothing we can do to stop it or change it. It is intended as a warning to God’s people to preach His word, for the time of His coming is at hand.
You are so right, Patricia. Jesus said that very thing Himself.
Mark 1.14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Jesus said those in his kingdom are those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit those in prison. No where did he laude those who protected their culture from immigrants, preserved their financial well being at the expense of the impoverished nations of the world, and tear down their barns to build bigger ones. In 1945 all Germans were like today’s immigrants, wandering about chased from one country to another, looking for food and safety. The English economy was in ruins and her young men had been living for many years like today’s immigrants wandering under constant danger in foreign countries. America was built entirely of masses yearning to be free. The Vatican of Ellen White’s day was on the side of imperialism and deserved the condemnation they got from her. The Vatican today is much closer to Jesus side of these issues and deserves our praise for the changes and reformations they have recently made. How can Adventists forget that the ruler of Babylon in Old Testament times will be in Heaven? A Pope who is Christ like may become your neighbor in the city of God.
Jack – you are too intelligent to fallaciously try and argue a positive from a negative. Nothing in Jesus’ statements or actions suggest that political action is a path to His Kingdom priorities. Nothing in Jesus’ words or actions supports the notion that legal action by nations to protect their autonomy and borders is wrong.
Victor stated the the statement was carefully designed to avoid political advocacy. I don’t doubt it. But the intent and bias that the design seeks to hide is nonetheless clear. To invoke the idealism of Abraham Lincoln is preposterous. What despot has not invoked the idealism of revered historical figures to advance evil?
Was there no shrill rhetoric indulged by the “remain” advocates? Was it not the rich and powerful whose greed motivated fearmongering by the “stay” proponents? Every political cycle features dishonest shrill hyperbole. So why now? Why this issue? Where was the statement by the T-U division lamenting the shrill anti-unity sentiments at last summer’s G.C.?
I wonder if anyone is interested in moving beyond vacuous slogans to talk about whether and how a nation can legitimately preserve its identity, culture, values, and self-determination.
Someone is crazy here. Doesn’t the devil do seemingly good things if it suits his agenda? Isn’t he going to deceive by pretending TO BE CHRIST? And where do you find a hypocrite? I never thought I would see the day when SDAs would be talking of the “GOOD” of the pope: a person who is unabashedly Jesuit – the worst possible human being on the earth. I know that a Jesuit can be anything: even a Seventh-day Adventist. But he never loses sight of his goal to destroy, eliminate, twist and abuse for power and control of the Catholic church. I would be foolish to believe in the goodness of one who “understands dark sentences.” Read your Bible: now is the time that we need to watch out for the “mystery of iniquity” which is already at work.
Now while there is a seeming rift in the EU, this is economic. The real agenda is the move for the possession of the souls of men. Then SDA’s will become the enemy….and many will abandon the church and join the ranks of the enemy against the faithful. I see it happening; Pope John Paul II predicted it and was quoted by Malachi Martin in THE KEYS OF THIS BLOOD. If you want to know the Catholic agenda and how it transcends mere money, have a read and see who is in control of the endgame as it is called. Modern day SDAs are way too naive and do not understand the command to WATCH AND PRAY. Therefore sudden destruction is bound to overtake the majority. We do not even preach the pillars of the faith anymore.
Stuff is afoot that will make Sykes-Picot, the 100 year old secret just exposed look like an old maid’s picnic and we are still fast asleep.
Mrs. Harvey,
Your post reads in such a way, you should not lead with a question like, “someone is crazy here.” Let’s assume no one is crazy. As Elder Glenn Coon us to say; “Believe the best about someone, even when it is difficult”
1. What is preposterous about wanting to be on God’s side?
2. None of us commenting are in powerful circumstance, thus notions of despotism are a little bizarre.
3. I think you will recall or discover that the TED has publicised Pastoral statements in response to some of the issues that divided people in San Antonio.
4. Church leaders do not have a platform to advise Governments or electorates, rather they speak to their member constituency at to those who are hurting.
You are deliberately avoiding the issue, Victor. You can’t be that dense. High-minded pieties can’t change the fact that shrill rhetoric was used by both sides, as is always the case in political battles. Yet TED chose to condemn as unchristian the rhetoric of only one side? Why? Are you seriously suggesting that SDA Brexiteers in The British Isles felt soothed by the condemnation of anti-immigration sentiment that was certainly part of the motivation for
Brexit?
“Anti-immigrant” is a convenient pejorative that glosses over some complex and legitimate objections to current self-destructive immigration sentiments and policies that prevail among Europe’s elites. Using God and Abraham Lincoln to paint Brexiteers as shrill anti-immigrants takes the name of both in vain.
Unlike Christ, TED is siding with the rich and powerful. And that is generally not who God sides with. Mind you, I don’t think God was on any particular side on this issue. And I strongly suspect that God’s people did not comprise any significant majority on either side of the Brexit vote. TED should have respected that reality.
My Colleague put together a variety of opinions from various leaders. The press release was not designed to be an official opinion on whether Brexit was inherently good or bad, or for that matter the key piece in Daniels puzzle.
A significant proportion of our members are immigrants or of immigrant heritage. A first concern is for their welfare.
I would anticipate that those of large heart would understand this.
In my article, I latched on to the BBC’s replacement of fraternity for football in the French motif: liberty, Egalite and Fraternite.
Given the violence associated with some of these matches, the murderous incident in one town, the vile demeaning tone of politicians on both sides of the argument, it seemed to me that Adventist leaders should call their people to a higher plane.
On the role of the church being to call believers to a higher plane, we can heartily agree. Ellen White showed great insight when she cautioned against investing passions in politics or competitive sports. Sadly, as cultures lose touch with the higher, transcendent plane to which God calls us, they seek to find meaning and purpose in games and politics.
It is interesting that the ideals that inspired the French Revolution – Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood – were very akin to the ideals that inspired the American Revolution. Yet they took such radically different paths. The difference, I suspect, is that the American Revolution was grounded in faith in God. The French Revolution was grounded in the goddess of reason and overtly repudiated God.
Nathan,
The American ‘revolution’ did have a hopeful, radical, dimension. It wasn’t born that way. King George was asserting his sovereign authority over his colonies with Parliament’s assent. The colonists took it wrong. They thought He was making war on his subjects and trampling on their ancient liberties. The impetus was to preserve, conserve if you will, their established rights and prerogatives. The colonists had a long and unique history of self-government. That unique predisposition to self-government arose out of their protestant, specifically dissenting protestant, worldview. The ideas self-government didn’t work in France and they certainly didn’t work in Latin America and Haiti. Ideological revolutions never have happy endings.
The American revolution was anything but ideological or religious, Thomas Paine being the exception that proves the rule. The ideas of patriotism, equality and liberty were important, but as George Washington said:
I do not mean to exclude altogether the idea of patriotism. I know it exists, and I know it has done much in the present contest. But I will venture to assert, that a great and lasting war can never be supported on this principle alone. It must be aided by a prospect of interest, or some reward.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Apr. 21, 1778
I will also let G Washington rephrase your, “the American Revolution was grounded in faith in God.”
Religion is as necessary to reason as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to; and well has it been said, that if there had been no God, mankind would have been obliged to imagine one.
George Washington
How is this for a picture of the similarities and differences between the French and American Revolutions?The plotters (it was a revolution, so there had to be plotters, eg, Ben Franklin) of the French Revolution had at least two necessities for success. 1. Power via democratic process, hence remove the Crown and its supportive aristocratic system. 2. Separation of church and state, which was a variation of aim no. 1.
In France, the church was a long-established institution known as Roman Catholicism, with its own power structure requiring removal. Reason was, I suspect, the ‘replacement religion’ for Popism.
In the as yet ununited colonial states, the Crown existed mainly by proxy. And the Church, insofar as it exerted a presence in national life at all, was far from a hegemonic hierarchical structure as in France. It was much as Nathan describes, a loose collective of self-governing groups with a built-in aversion to Rome and its modus operandi. Separation of Church and State was thus far easier to achieve. And the Crown was far away in England, and so, relatively easily dealt with, and no need for guillotines.
And who of us today does not like Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite ?
Serge,
Edmund Burke, the Whig politician/philosopher, who served in Parliament during both the American and the French revolution, sympathized with the Americans but he was the French Revolution’s most perceptive critic. From the beginning Burke understood France’s revolution’s would lead inevitably to despotism.
He would agree with Nathan that repudiation of the French patrimony and the devotion to destructive, ideological change; radical change, would ‘uproot’ all the habits of life and religion and would wreak havoc with all civil order.
By contrast, the protestant church in America and Great Britain was vitally integrated into the habits of everyday life. The protestant religion is something you have to do yourself, whereas Roman Catholics habitually let the church do their religion for them. This is how the habits of self-government and the ideas about the ‘rights of Englishmen’ develop – in conjunction with the protestant mindset of individual accountability before God.
In the end, your right, the edifice of religious super-structure in France had little influence on the French imagination against the new ideological gods: Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. But you underestimate the influence of the protestant religion on the American’s worldview and their ‘revolution’ in self-government. The American concepts of divided government and self-government are rooted in their religious experience.
Does anyone else get the impression that SDA are paranoid about eschatology? Why is this so? Are they afraid of being tortured as non-conformist or that they are going to lose their depraved, darling world environment or that they are not ready for the 2nd coming? Maybe they have enmity against Jesus that hasn’t been dealt with yet.