The New Statement on Human Sexuality
By Loren Seibold, November 3, 2015: On Monday (Nov. 2) the Adventist denomination’s North American Division (NAD) executive committee approved, by a not-unanimous but still very strong vote, a document entitled “Statement on Human Sexuality.” In spite of the title, the subject was not all of human sexuality, but homosexuality and our relationship as a church to this group of people, many of whom belong among us.
I started ministry in a time when homosexuality was known, but never mentioned. Those of us who read outside of church literature knew that homosexuality was emerging from the shadows. People who “practiced” (a word I hate for its inaptness and condescension, but one used in the new document) homosexuality had begun to self-identify, to become not just open about their homosexuality, but proud of it, and assertive of their right to be homosexual. It even took on a friendlier, less clinical name: “gay.”
I was a kid from the sticks; I grew up on a North Dakota farm. Homosexuality wasn’t mentioned, except, as I got older and into the dirty joke age, in derision. In college I made a friend whom I liked and admired. Only later did he admit to me—probably as he discovered it himself—that he was gay. I remember thinking, “Well, I liked him when I didn’t know he was gay. Why would I quit liking him now? I thought he was a sincere Christian before I knew he was gay. Why wouldn’t he be now?” I never felt threatened by his sexuality. I knew that I was attracted to girls, he to other guys, and I had no fear that either of us would get confused about that.
I now feel that that experience was part of God’s guidance for my life as a pastor. Later I was called to the San Francisco metro area, a city that had surged ahead of the rest of America as a place where gay people didn’t need to hide, and even could be public figures. That wasn’t true in most of the Adventist church, but gay people did attend my church, and they knew that I was supportive of them. Some years later, I encouraged a lesbian family as they made an effort to become part of (though not members of) the church I pastored. That’s how my wife and I ended up in a documentary film, Seventh-Gay Adventists. I’m not sure that helped my career any, but it was something I believed in.
I believe that gay people have been made the way they are, that they have no more choice about their attraction to people of their own gender than I have about my attraction to my wife. I believe that Christian gay couples are real Christian families. And because of that, I can’t accept that these people should be deprived of the privilege of companionship or physical affection.
That’s my history with this issue. But in the denomination in which I serve, homosexuality is condemned. By extension, homosexuals were usually also condemned. For most of my ministry, I heard leaders and laypeople say that it was a choice, a perversion, possibly even a contagion. The only possibility for these people was to change and become straight. And some of us still think that way.
That’s why this new document shocked me (and I’m not exaggerating by much with that word). I never thought that in my lifetime I would see so many church leaders understand that homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual. That there is such a thing as a homosexual orientation that in itself doesn’t necessarily mean one is immoral. Nor that (and this is probably the most surprising of all) the leaders of my denomination would say that homosexual people should be welcomed in the church whether in a relationship or not, and that those who aren’t “practicing” (that word again) can be church leaders.
When I posted on social media that I thought this document was revolutionary, I got some push back, even some hurt and anger, from my gay and gay-supportive friends. “We’re still not welcome if we’re in a relationship,” said one. Partly true. You’re not welcome to be a church leader or a member in that situation. Still, the document says, “The Seventh-day Adventist Church promotes open church attendance and fellowship. Modeling the love of Jesus Christ, Adventists welcome people from all walks of life to join them for Sabbath School, the worship service, the communion service, Bible study groups, and other church-based activities.” The Adventist seminary statement on which it is based is even more blunt: “All persons, including practicing homosexuals, should be made to feel welcome to attend our churches while non-practicing gay persons should be welcomed into membership and church office. All should receive spiritual care from the Church (Gal. 6:1).”
There was a time when that couldn’t have been said, nor would any of those things have happened in your average church. Something much, much less Christian would almost assuredly have happened. This passage ought to be especially welcome: “Those with same-sex orientation who conform to biblical teachings about sexual behavior may fully participate in the life of the Adventist Church.” Yes, that means you can be a deacon, an elder, a Sabbath School teacher.
“It still says that gay people are broken and need to be fixed,” another said. Again, only partly true: there is in this document the assertion that practicing homosexuals are not in God’s will. But to the NAD leaders’ credit, there is not a single mention of changing homosexuals into heterosexuals. Plus there is a refreshing humility, for a group that usually thinks it has all the answers, about why people are homosexuals: “The Adventist Church does not presume to have settled the scientific and social questions regarding the cause of non-heterosexual orientation.”
The document didn’t go through without a few changes, but surprisingly few. Most people at the commenter’s microphones praised it. A paragraph about protecting our children was (appropriately) struck, because it could have been read to suggest that homosexuals were by their nature dangerous. (Pedophiles are generally heterosexual.) They added a line prohibiting church facilities for same-sex weddings or receptions. Dr. Ted Wilson came to the microphone to ask the group to strike a sentence that said, “Attending a same-sex ceremony is a matter of personal conscience and should be considered with discretion.” His motion was defeated; the line stands.
I know this document isn’t going to please my gay friends, or those who support them. With something like this, it’s hard to explain it in a way that pleases everyone—or anyone. Should one note what hasn’t been accomplished, or give credit where it is due? Of course this statement isn’t all it should be. As Daneen Akers, producer with her husband of Seventh-Gay Adventists, pointed out, there weren’t gay people involved in crafting it. That’s a huge flaw.
Yet being a pastor in the world of conservative Seventh-day Adventists for 36 years, I can tell you that I never dreamt we would get even this far. Just saying that homosexual people, “practicing” or not, should be welcomed in church, and celibate gay people allowed to hold church offices—it’s not enough, but it’s something. Just remember where we came from: it isn’t that long ago that the best our denomination could do was to condemn all gay people, call them perverts, and endorse shady gay change ministries.
There is plenty to criticize here, but I’ve tried to give deserved credit. I’m pleased to say that, in this diverse group, the statement was passed with very little objection. I got the feeling that a whole lot of people in this room know some gay people, have loved gay people as friends, family members or church members, and are trying desperately to know how to be compassionate without going against what their consciences believe the Bible says. There was no anger here, no willful exclusion, no (obvious) hypocrisy, but I felt in the room a readiness to be as accepting as Jesus, within limits that most here are unable to go beyond.
Yet the fact that the group did approve a statement that has gone beyond the limits of what we used to believe shows momentum. And the momentum keeps pushing. A statement by an organization like this is an attempt to drive in a border stake. The border stake seems at the moment like an anchor. But a border invites trespass. Like a speed limit, it is an invitation to go beyond it. It happened with divorce and remarriage, and it might happen here, too. In the meantime, I’m gratified that pastors and churches have in this document permission (for those inclined to minister to gay people) and instruction (for those who yet do not) to accept gay people into the church, and regard them as fellow Christians.
Two recent statements presented by Seventh-day Adventist institutions regarding sexuality:
- NAD Statement on Human Sexuality (Nov. 2, 2015) [PDF]
- An Understanding of the Biblical View on Homosexual Practice and Pastoral Care (Oct. 9, 2015) [PDF]
Pastor Loren Seibold is executive editor of Adventist Today and has been reporting on the NAD annual meeting for the last week from Silver Spring, Maryland.
The author refuses to recognize that homosexuality is sin. Then he plays off “love” as being absent if the church does not condone sin and sinners. Then he refuses to acknowledge the difference between our sinful nature and the defense of our sinful nature and the outward control of the sinful nature over the unregenerate person.
In the end, he defends homosexuality on the basis, “I can’t help it, I was born Gay.”
It is a vain and empty excuse to expect people to accept this idea as justification for practicing this sinful condition.
The church has always been willing to help anyone who is struggling with sin on any level. But the church has not, and hopefully will not and never will accept anyone who desires to be accepted into full fellowship without repentance and victory over their sinful nature whatever that sin may be.
Just because they claim to be born “Gay” is not relevant. We are all born liars, thieves, murderer’s and every other sinful and vile evil that sin has cursed the human family with. And this is no excuse to allow such in the church without repentance if they practice any known sin. We are all “born that way” and Jesus states, “Ye must be born again” if you expect to be in God’s kingdom.
The problem is easily definable and the solution is clearly stated in scripture. There is no need for all the confusion and ambiguity that many advocate to convolute the situation.
What is “sin” Bill – is it an act or a state? That question is as old as Augustine of Hippo and original sin.
“What is “sin” Bill – is it an act or a state? That question is as old as Augustine of Hippo and original sin.”
The answer is clear and obvious. It is both a sinful state, and it leads to sinful acts. And it does not take a “rocket scientist” to understand this clear bible truth. Man is born infected with sin and can not do anything but sin, until and unless he is “born again” by way of the Holy Spirit.
Man is born with an unholy spirit (wicked and evil motive) that he can not control outside the born again experience that gives him a new motive, power, and ability to cease from sin. Nothing ambiguous about that. Clear and understandable. Original sin is easier to prove from the bible than any other bible doctrine. When Adam sinned, we were legally cut off, and morally depraved. Jesus is both a doctor and a lawyer. His atonement deals with both aspects of sin.
Actually, it goes back to Lucifer’s rebellion in heaven. Sin is a state of being that produces the various behaviors we call “sins.”
Although I am not gay, I feel very, very strongly that the LGBT community should have full membership and full rights as any other Adventist member. What happens if a gay person suddenly decides to tell other church members about his/her sexual orient- ation. Is that member going to be disfellowshipped? I’m sorry, but this does not go far enough, and mostly, what I see from these replies, are people who are ignorant and hateful and who do not want to be educated or sympathetic. I’m sick of this! I want to stand with the LGBT community and say that, if any of these people are disfellowshipped, then I want to be too. I’m sure my salvation is insured if I decide to join the Lutheran Church.
Janet, I heartily commend your approbation of the Lutheran church. Although not perfect, they have a history of having the most important thing right. Luther’s justification teaching is a wonderful truth in which to rejoice, the one truth above all others which will save our souls.
Please be sure that you attend an ELCA branch of the Lutheran church. Things might get a little uncomfortable for you in the LCMS,or other conservative groups of the Lutheran communion.
ELCA has been criticized by other Lutherans for their inclusive nature but if you are determined to fellowship with “practicing” homosexuals, ELCA could be just the place for you.
DELETED PERSONAL COMMENTS
The battle over this issue is just heating up in Adventism but in the ELCA and other churches, the dust has apparently, more or less, settled.
You could try both denominations for a while and see which suits you. The death and resurrection of Christ is what really matters. All this other stuff, meh
Thank you so very much. It is not that I want to exclude myself from people who are not homosexual, but I DO NOT believe that the LGBT community should lose their membership or be disfellowshipped from the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Many people who are gay or lesbian have been baptized into the SDA Church as young people, and have been extremely frightened of saying anything about their true selves. And in reading some of the comments here, it is very easy to see why these good people are so frightened. When these people decide to let others know about their sexual orientation, what will happen to them? The Adventist Church did not step up to the plate during the Civil Rights struggles that happened in this country, and I think another huge mistake is happening here as well. If I were gay in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, I think I would eventually feel suicidal. Does anyone believe this is really what Christ wants?
I was a pastor and was frightened by homosexuals until one of them shared with me his testimony about how God had touched him and was changing him. Seeing the degree of change God had worked in him was life-changing for me and taught me the real mechanics of how God works in a person to redeem and transform them. Then, years later, when traditionalism in the church eroded my faith to the point of collapse, it was returning to what He had taught me that helped my faith to recover and grow to new heights. So it is from experience that I tell you a person who is afraid of homosexuals has not experienced the redeeming power of God and their fear is due to the absence of the spiritual confidence that redemption experience gives.
Janet,I have been saying for years that Adventism is an absolutely toxic environment for homosexuals. I’m not gay myself [denial];I don’t want to fellowship with practicing homosexuals in a faith context,either; however, denying Christ for a moment, I do believe that consenting adults are entitled to their preferred form of sexual expression, free of harrassment.
Adventism is doing the same thing to gays that it has done to women–bait and switch. Sure come on to seminary, give Bible studies, win souls, preach but you will never get the validation that men have.
Same thing to gays by denying them membership–give your money in the form of tithe, believe we are the remnant and you’ll go to hell without us, maybe get the mark of the beast but no baptism, church membership for you
SISTER JANET I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU,GOD NEVER MADE MAN TO LIVE WITH ANOTHER MAN AND THEN SAY HE WAS BORN THAT WAY, IT IS SIN SISTER YES SIN MY FRIEND. WE LOVE THE GAY BUT WE HATE THEIR DIRTY WAYS AND WE WILL NIT ACCOMADATE THEIR SINFUL WAYS BY SAYING GOD UNDERSTANDS. YOU CANNOT GO TO ANY OTHER CHURCH AND SAY YOUR SALVATION IS ASSURED FOR THE BIBLE SAYS ” OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH IS NOT OF THIS FOLD, THEM MUST I BRING AND THERE WILL BE ONE FOLD AND ONE SHEPHERD. I AM GOING TO PRAY FOR YOU RIGHT NOW.
I assume that Mr. Sorensen and those who agree with him say that homosexuality is “sin” (I assume what is meant is “a sin”) because (1) Paul made a statement about it (which is probably not talking about what we mean by “being gay” in the modern world) and (2) because of one text in the Old Testament. Are there any other reasons? If there are other reasons, I would appreciate being enlightened.
To be clear Mr. Taylor, I suspect the one text you are referring to in the old testament is Lev. 18:22 which describes a man laying with a man as with a woman as an abomination not a privilege as the author states. To my mind an abomination is the strongest possible language that can be used to describe a way that is against the ways of God. There is no ambiguity here.
The modern world (the last 50 yrs) has a plethora of views about sexuality LGBTQQIAAP this is confusion. As you are aware the CHURCH is called to be light to the world, though we are in the world we are not of the world For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The biblical view on sexual relations is not confusing He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH (Mat 19:5).
A city on a hill cannot be hid we need not to waiver on the biblical view of marriage and the heretical teaching that it is righteous for a man to lay with a man as with a woman. To imply that sin is not a choice is to imply that we have lost our individuality and that we only have a form of Godliness but now power.
If the author of this article is a truly an SDA pastor he or she clearly has a “gay” agenda, which conflicts with the word of God. Love the sinner not…
How can you love the sinner if you don’t learn how to minister God’s redemptive power to them? The views you are declaring make a lot of noise but don’t produce much traction in actually ministering the Gospel to one of the social groups in the greatest need of experiencing God’s love.
The view that I am declaring is in direct response to the personal opinions/views expressed by the author of this article an SDA pastor that I find to be contrary to the word of God.
The author states “I believe gay people are made the way they are, they have no choice and He does not accept that they should be deprived of the privilege of physical affection”
I want to challenge/test those ideas against scripture.
Personally, I believe that every human being created in the image of God is created with individuality the power to think and to do. Other wise we would not be able to chose Christ. Further more if scripture is correct and it is against the ways of God (not a priviege as expressed by this author) for a man to lie with a man as with a woman and those that do such things are practicing unrighteousness and will not inherit the Kingdom of God, then this author may be leading many astray.
The author is actively involved in promoting the practice of homosexuality contrary to scripture because he, not God, he the author does not think it is a choice and does not like the term practicing homosexuality.
God has created us wonderfully and marvelously sin shall not have dominion over us. It is loving in my mind to encourage those with same sex attraction, by affirming the power that they have in christ, encouraging, loving and praying with them in Christ. I don’t think it is loving to label sons and daugthers of God as gay. Be not decieved.
Most gays have no interest at all in the love of God. They prefer sodomy, frottage, masturbation, and oral sex to sanctified heterosexual relations. Most effort to “minister” the love of God to them is pearls before swine, giving holy things to dogs.
The church has bought into the gay agenda to the point that the community of faith has turned on itself with accusations and condemnation,rather than calling sin by its right name and giving the trumpet a certain sound. Immoral people are going to hell, regardless of homosexual practice or heterosexual.
Most gays in developed nations are well aware of the claims of Christ. They have access to the same Bibles, churches, teachers, and opportunities that other people have.
Cultural Adventists who reject the Biblical creation narrative, often repeated throughout Scripture, affirm homosexuality, consider Scripture a fairy tale, are simply humanists,maybe altruists, whatever.
No way do they believe in the Virgin birth,atonement,and resurrection of Christ from the dead. How could they, if Scripture is a fable.
So, I guess the phrase “it takes one to know one” should be emphasized here.
I have gay Christian friends who are involved with church (attending weekly on Sabbaths, Bible studies with their straight friends, feeding the homeless and finding other ways to show true religion is as Jesus and James describes to help those less fortunate, singing in the choir or playing the piano for praise time.
You want to rephrase your judgmental over generalized statement that they supposedly don’t believe in virgin birth of Jesus because they’re gay?
Your ignorance has shined through and is brighter than God’s face when He appeared to Moses.
Hi Hansen,
Sin has changed us significantly we don’t know the struggle or urge that any one individual who is facing same sex attraction has to deal with. They are being bombarded with with all sorts of confusion about sexuality.Remember some seed feel along the path, when anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. We as a church need to be compassionate towards our brothers and sisters who are facing same sex attraction I believe that is what the church document is encouraging. We need to encourage them in the love and power of Christ.
I know in the past I have struggle with my own temptations and it is through the grace and love of God that I am able to press on. God is able.
There are persons with gay agendas however, seeking to take advantage of people legitamate struggles with sin. Seeking to distort the word of God by exchanging the clear word of God for a lie and the views of men.
Seeking to weaking our trust in the word of God by emotionally blackmailing us with threats of redicule, shaming and even exploiting our love for children and compsassion for suicide victims by conflating the consequence of sin with us trusting the word of God. Ulitmately implying that God righteous law is wicked.
We need not speculate what takes place in the privacy of a person bed room that is between them and God. We need to teach the plain Word of God.
Hi Kris, I may be ignorant but I understand English fairly well. “They” refers to cultural Adventists who reject the creation narrative, etc. “They” refers to Cultural Adventists, not gays. The paragraph beginning with cultural Adventists is then followed by one which refers to “they” i.e., cultural Adventists.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Donovan, Do you show compassion for the man who wants to have sex with a married woman? You should. Are his desires any less than the gay who lusts after another member of his/her own sex?
A very strong case can be made for adulterous relationships in certain cultures. Abraham’s wife made one that convinced him it was all right.
People from Judaeo Christian backgrounds who are confronted by the marriage culture of non-Christian lands can easily find themselves in a bewildered state when confronted by cultures where what we would call adultery is normative.
Pastor Siebold is a country boy, a bumpkin, more or less, who has been buffaloed by the homosexual narrative. His personal opinions are just that, non authoritative, non binding, and hopefully, damaging, when in conflict with God’s will, to his career as an SDA clergyman.
Well said, Donovan, and I believe you have hit the nail squarely on its head.
There is just so many amazing wonderful things in Pastor Seibold’s article I don’t know where to start. But perhaps how about a huge thankyou for your contribution to the documentary Seventh-Gay Adventists.
The lesbian family you mention were the best witness I’ve ever seen for homosexual acceptance. They never pushed their views or life but simply showed a Christ-like (or perhaps rather a Magdalene-like example) by quietly doing all the jobs in Church no one else wanted to do. Jesus admonition to Simon whilst Mary washed His feet comes to mine. Yes they may be “sinners” but so are we all – the Simons of this world included.
Pastor Siebold: “We’re still not welcome if we’re in a relationship,” said one. Partly true. You’re not welcome to be a church leader or a member in that situation. Still, the document says, “The Seventh-day Adventist Church promotes open church attendance and fellowship.”
Totally agree. Jesus, Paul and indeed Ellen White all showed a nuance re Christian ethics and behaviour most of us, both liberal and conservative, seem too fundamentalist (and that includes liberals) to acknowledge. There is a distinction between ‘ideal’ and ‘non-ideal’ behaviours – and it is Christian leaders who must live up to the ideal.
When Paul said elders must be the husband of one wife, he was suggesting that lay members were not doing so – and still accepted in fellowship. Yet he was right for demanding hetrosexual marital monogomy for Church leadership.
As far as I am concerned a lesbian couple should be treated little different from a polygamous couple. Even if polygamy is not a “sin” (you can debate that) people in those relations shouldn’t be Church leaders. But they should be accepted in fellowship.
In this way the kingdom of God should be both wider (laxer and more accepting) but deeper (stricter) than the world. I know that is an answer that neither people who are pro-gay or anti-gay probably want to hear but I honestly think it is the correct and biblical approach to this and a whole range of thorny issues.
While the official church may welcome homosexuals, it is the local congregation that makes that decision. If they do not follow these guidelines, how can there truly be a change? Would a same sex couple know or decide to take it to the G.C.?
Elaine, that is indeed a concern. No one supposes, I think, that all Adventists will follow this. (See dear Adventist Christian Bill Sorenson, below). But as I said at the end, I do think it will give permission to some, and instruct others.
Loren,
If Conferences and Unions can take a stand opposite to voted results of GC concerning ordination of woman why do local churches have to follow any guideline at all. They are only following examples.
“. I believe that couples like [these folks asked that their real names be removed] are real Christian families. And because of that, I can’t accept that these people should be deprived of the privilege of companionship or physical affection.”
This is one of the most wicked statements ever made by any pastor of any denomination and is a total disgrace to one who claims to be a SDA minister. As a church leader, he will answer to God for a higher level of influence and authority than the average church member. He should be first fired as a pastor, and if he continues this wicked influence, be disfellowshipped from the SDA church.
To advocate the homosexual lifestyle as an acceptable norm on any level is evil, and to claim it should be accepted by the church is even more so.
That’s right Daniel.
EGW said this ” And because I am a sinner I am entitled to come to Christ…”
Seibold would say this, “Because I was born in sin, I am entitled to sin.” And this has been the view many now embrace in the SDA church. This means Jesus died and did away with the law, and there is no need to be “born again.”
Daniel, these are my two cents (on the alleged censorship):
Remember that we are all simply guests on AToday’s turf.
It seems to me that AT exists precisely to be used as an outlet and a voice to present dissenting/differing opinions to mainstream Adventism. Most AT collaborators do not believe/support all pillars of SDA doctrine, the Old Testament or the majority of the Bible, for that matter. The core of AToday is agnostic, at best. Everything Biblical/Adventist is questioned using fallible extra – Biblical sources which are deemed most sound by those who, perhaps unbeknownst to them, blaspheme God’s truth and name by their turning away from the Bible. Many would rather accept the “wisdom” of a mere created mortal’s interpretation of the Creator’s own words and refuse to acknowledge/belief God at His own Word!!
And you know what, Daniel, that’s just fine!! After the “proposed apology letter” fiasco I realized that if I choose to remain an acting participant at AT, knowing fully well that my beliefs are diametrically opposed to many AT “propositions”, then I cannot be upset with their views and neither can I question how the run their site.
I am not defending AT at your expense. I am just saying that we are guests at AT’s home. I will take AT over Spectrum any day! AT offers its guest a far greater freedom of expression than Spectrum ever will. I find AT to be very tolerant of all commentators, regardless of how abrasive our opinions may…
Yudelis,
I’ll just re-post this reply as it ended further up the first time.
Thank you for your response.
Owners and management of companies exert authority over their employees. The arrogance and abuse many managers and company owners display against their employees is evidence that they think their company stands solely by their own single handed efforts. Little do they know, or blatantly deny, is that without the hard labor and sweat of their employees their company would not even get off the ground, let alone be prosperous. And so the same spirit is displayed here. It’s not a privilege, we’re all part of that system which keeps turning.
Romans 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Fools fail to glorify GOD and to be thankful; given up to the lust of their own hearts and vile affections. The last verse says it all:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
There is no justification or sanction for sin. Bill states it perfectly; it is a wall that we have no way through. We should Love others enough to tell them.
The middle of the chapter describes the current situation:
Romans 1:
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Lets all serve the creature, justify all sin, get cast in the lake of fire and take everyone else with us; sounds like a fools wisdom and great definition of love (lower case) to me also Daniel.
Wisdom 101; HIS wisdom:
1) We all have the mental capability of a rock and the moral ethics below the rock without HIM; by definition. Some of us will wish we had the rock to hide under.
2) We have much larger fields of those lost without focus than ever before.
3) We have a failing Church and nothing better to do than focus on our own individual foolish ideas? That have already been proven failures?
4) How does any of this serve GOD?
We know what has, is and will happen; HE told us. There are no excuses.
So, how do you translate that into a ministry of God’s redeeming power that will make a homosexual want to know more about God?
God forgives those who repent and accept Jesus. The bible may be comprehensive in explaining all the ramifications of this truth, but ultimately, this is all anyone need to know. God is love. He is not required to give His Son. But because He loves the fallen sons of Adam, He provides the atonement.
The Holy Spirit works by way of this truth and some sinners repent and accept it. Others do not for various reasons. It requires a cross in the human experience and people would like a salvation that has no cross for them to bear. So, if someone can convince them there is no cross for a true believer, they will accept this false gospel Satan has prepared for the world that removes the law, and the cross from the human experience.
Simply put, William, Jesus died for our sins. But a believer must die to his sins. It is the same experience with a different value. Jesus’ death has legal and merit value, our death his no merit, but it has moral value. So, we have title and fitness.
How about “making the rubber meet the road” and telling us how you propose to translate that scriptural mandate into actual ministry that is effective at transforming a person trapped in sin.
“How about “making the rubber meet the road” and telling us how you propose to translate that scriptural mandate into actual ministry that is effective at transforming a person trapped in sin.”
We sure as thunder are not going to tell them “I’m OK, you’re OK” just go right on practicing sin since you can’t help it and are born that way,” like pastor Siebold tells us to do. His view is “Because I was born in sin, I am entitled to go on sinning.”
The whole theory is blatantly and obviously evil by any objective evaluation compared to scripture. How anyone who claims any affinity to Christanity and/or professes to be a Christian could agree and/or endorse his wicked advice and council is beyond any rational consideration of what he contends for.
Hello????? Is anybody home????? Really???? Did any of you who agree with him really read what he wrote????? Or are you so blinded by your “false gospel” you actually believe Jesus did away with the law and now we can live as we please without fear of judgment? All we have to do is say, “Hey, I was born that way, and I can’t help it.”
So we can lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, and anything else our carnal heart desires and defend it by saying, “Hey, I was born that way, I can’t help it.” And “I deserve to have all the things I want and should not be deprived of having them and be accepted as a Christian like everybody else.”
What a sick and wicked excuse to defend evil and advocate it.
Bill,
I am starting to think your saying “lawless Christ” needs modifying? Should it be: Anti-Christ? Everything I am seeing here lately shows that many are indeed “loving their neighbor” but hating God. Yes, it’s “lawlessness” against God. Little do some realize that to truly Love others one must have God’s Love in their heart, which comes through the Holy Spirit. Humans are incapable of Loving others the way God Loves. So do all these professing “love” have the Love of God in their hearts? God knows the secrets of every heart. What happened to Job’s three friends? They thought they were right.
“9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
What “kingdom” are some people setting up; because it doesn’t look like the Kingdom of God and of His Christ to me?
Bill,
I’m not excusing, defending or advocating evil. I’m simply challenging you to explain from your experience how your views about sin and your continual condemnation of evil ministers to homosexuals in a way that allures them into wanting to follow God. With all that you keep saying, it doesn’t look like your faith is even remotely capable of doing that.
Bill,
“How anyone who claims any affinity to Christianity and/or professes to be a Christian could agree and/or endorse his wicked advice and council is beyond any rational consideration of what he contends for.”
The fact is Bill, the foundation of many so-called Christians is not made of Stone, that is, the “tried and Precious Stone, the Chief Cornerstone”.
This is why we are seeing such blatant rebellion and divisions within the whole body of Christianity, that is, the visible church.
“The fact is Bill, the foundation of many so-called Christians is not made of Stone, that is, the “tried and Precious Stone, the Chief Cornerstone”.
This is why we are seeing such blatant rebellion and divisions within the whole body of Christianity, that is, the visible church.”
The fact is Daniel, you can’t keep telling people they don’t have to keep the law to be saved, without people eventually believing it. And you end up with comments like pastor Siebold has made to affirm this reality.
And yes, a “lawless Christ” is equated to the antichrist foretold in bible prophecy. Many who abandon the law as being instrumental in salvation, automatically equate legalism with law keeping and feel compelled to abandon any suggestion that might imply the necessity of law keeping with salvation.
But, just because you can not merit and earn heaven by law keeping, does not equate to the idea that any motive to keep the law as the condition for salvation is legalism.
The moral law is not a legal document nor a legal imperative. God never gave the children of Israel the moral law as the way they could earn and merit heaven. It is a family law for those who accept the atonement of Christ as their legal right to heaven, and agree with the family law that must be kept to not only remain a member of the family, but must be kept to become a member of the family.
We are not like Adam before sin who was required to obey, but children who must cease to sin.
If we don’t cease to sin, then we do not qualify for heaven, and remain under the wrath of God. So, we accept Jesus as our legal right to heaven, but also keep the moral law as our moral right and fitness for heaven. The human factor in salvation is not negated by some false gospel that denies the necessity to obey the law of God to be saved.
“Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life…….” Rev. 22:14 We have a moral right to heaven by keeping the family law. We have a legal right to heaven because we come in the name of Jesus. This is not beyond understanding for anyone who wants to know how the law and gospel work in perfect harmony by way of title and fitness. Our fitness is not our legal right to heaven. And neither is our title our moral right to heaven. But both are required and make up the complete salvation God ordained for “all who believe.”
Bill, I question your assertion that if we don’t “cease to sin, then we do not qualify for heaven…” If even one among us could “cease to sin”, would there have been a need for that ghastly crimson and tortured scene at a place called Golgatha? If you or I could “cease to sin”, what need would we have of a Savior? His blood came at a terrible price, yet you seem to think that we have it within our own paltry power to do (earn salvation by obeying the law) or not do (sin) something. I sin in some way, consciously and unconsciously, every day! I break the speed limit, I swear when something really hurts or honks me off, I lose patience with my son, I say something unkind to my husband, I glare at the guy who cut me off, I look at a sexy actor with a little more than casual interest. It is not to cease sinning that I call out to my Savior, but that I CAN’T cease sinning that I admit my need for His grace and my Father’s forgiveness. I am a broken, deeply flawed, imperfect human – there is not a SINGLE thing I can do on my own power, because even the very breath of my body belongs to God. Not one among us is capable of ceasing to sin, although some of us have a closer relationship with God and therefore sin less (I am not among that number, because I am weak and falter often). But don’t put out there that becoming a Christian means that we stop sinning because that’s far from true. We only become more aware of our sinful nature and need for our God.
Bill, we do not “die to sin”. The baptism experience is symbolic of our earthly selves dying and being raised as a new creature – a creature born of Spirit rather than if flesh. We die to self and live for Christ. This does not mean that we stop sinning! We cannot! My Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That means every prophet, every righteous man and woman, every saint! As creatures reborn of Spirit, we recognize and admit our inability to live apart from He Who sent the Spirit to us. But we still sin. It is the curse we live under until Christ returns and wipes the slate clean. As Christains, we are not free from sin and we do not “cease to sin”; rather, we are set free from the consequence of sin (death) as imperfect believers hidden under a cleansing layer of holy blood. Only One has ever walked this earth and been found blameless and perfect, and His name was not Bill (or Heather).
* Note on my post dated 11/6 at 12:21 pm: Although Christians are imperfect believers hidden under the cleansing layer of Christ’s blood, this does not give us license to sin. Sin, in any context, is still an unholy thing and hated by God. But as long as we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness, Christ’s blood covers our human imperfections. It is when we willfully sin, feel no compunction for it and cease to ask for forgiveness that Christ’s blood no longer hides us and we become subject to the consequence of sin (death, that is, eternal destruction).
” Christ’s blood covers our human imperfections. It is when we willfully sin, feel no compunction for it and cease to ask for forgiveness that Christ’s blood no longer hides us and we become subject to the consequence of sin (death, that is, eternal destruction).”
Heather, you did quite a bit of qualifying of what you mean or what you meant. So I’ll just leave it there.
It’s interesting that the author stated people are born gay, and then notes that his friend in college “discovered” that he was gay. Where will the logic of this argument lead us?
I discovered booze at a young age, so I guess I was created to be a drunk!
I discovered cigarettes at a young age, so I guess I was created to smoke!
I discovered drugs at a young age, so I guess I was created to be an addict!
Stop sugar coating the problem by saying people are “born” gay. Tell it like it is, The gospel of John says Jesus made everything, therefore Jesus made them gay, Jesus created them gay! Why not come clean with the real arguement behind this movement, I was “born” a sinner, therefore I can’t stop sinning, I should embrace sinning, God really wants me to be a sinner because He made me this way!
Jesus warns us not to embrace the “doctrines of Balaam” (brings the teachings and practices of other religions and faiths into our own churches because they are popular and seem like the right thing to do), that they will cause us to be lost.
At creation Jesus made male and female and told them to go forth and multiply. Teaching that Jesus altered this plan and now creates some men to be homosexual and some women to be lesbians is pretty sick. In saying people are born (created) that way without any choice or ability to be any other way is to teach this is an extra punishment God inflicted on mankind because of sin. Not only were we all doomed to die because of…
……..but some of us by random chance are born gay.
Men are “born” to be gay.
Women are “called” to be pastors.
Why not say.
Men are “called” to be gay.
Women are “born” to be pastors.
If being “called” and being “born” both come from Jesus, are they not the same, interchangeable?
Sorry Clyde Bright, your reasoning is so unbelievably unusual, it shouldn’t just be ignored.
My father in law was left handed. How can that possibly be!? Jesus creates only right handed people!
In school my father in law was taught to use the right hand only, because using the left hand would have been wrong. Guess what – it took him a long while to figure out and acknowledge that he actually was left handed.
And where in the Gospel of John do you read that Jesus makes everything? (You say “made” which could refer to creation, but that’s apparently not what you have in mind).
Jesus warned against the doctrines of Balaam? Where? I couldn’t find the text. But neither Moses nor Daniel shunned an education that was far more fraught with strange superstitions than today’s science – and still were powerful leaders for God’s people.
It is obvious that you are upset. Perhaps it would be helpful to reflect and even share what exactly makes you so upset and look at the implications of your line of though. Thanks.
John 1:3 says Jesus made everything. Now if Jesus “made” people gay we must consider that predestination is a fact, and some were created to be lost and some were created to be saved and man has no free will.
I say this in light of what 1 Tim. 1:9 says “We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. NIV”
Since Paul clearly lumps those that practice homosexuality with others that will be lost because of their sinful lifestyles, our church saying they were born that way (made/created that way by Jesus) is really saying predestination is a fact of life and Jesus can’t change you from being a lost sinner into a saved saint not matter how much you want to be saved.
Now Jesus warns the church not to accept and practice the doctrines of Balaam in Revelation 2:14
I am not mad. I am not afraid. I am worried about the direction our church is headed. Rather then being watchman on the wall giving the trumpet a certain sound our leaders are saying we must be politically correct and stop blowing the trumpet all together.
bill, are you equating ‘to cease from’ to be the same as heather’s ‘to stop doing something willfully’?
“bill, are you equating ‘to cease from’ to be the same as heather’s ‘to stop doing something willfully’?
Yes, but she had to go on a long explanation to say the same thing.
I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.
I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building.
The policy of this church throughout its history.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. NIV
Now that many in our church are rejecting the above doctrine, does the following scripture apply?
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Christians are not hidden, they are to be light.
Jesus not only wanted to forgive us, but he wants to change us……..be born again.
Jesus wants to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He did not shed his blood to cover up our sins, so we can remain in them, but he shed his blood to cleanse us, free us from sin.
We either belong to HIM or not; there is no me in any of that.
HE is the only way over the wall of sin; for those that are called and believe. CHRIST came in Flesh and Blood as The Sacrifice for us sinners (1 John 4:3). Do we continually crucify HIM by condoning sin? Was his first Sacrifice not enough? Yet the world will still fall away; because of us.
For anyone to think they own or have any part in that Sacrifice is about as foolish as anything I have ever heard. We should all be hitting our knee glorifying and in thanks giving for even being thought about. But that doesn’t happen. I begin questioning who all this great service is to also; the creature or the CREATOR?
I’m afraid you will be very disappointed when you get to heaven and see that these pastors you describe are there too. Also, any LGBT member you may find there will probably disappoint you greatly! Actually, I’m not sure you will even get there!
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.(1Cor6:9)
You are teaching as commandment the views of men.
On the contrary we should be encouraging our brothers and sisters in the Lord, teaching them that they are created in the image of God. encouraging them not be lawless promiscuous fornicators, teach them there is no life in idols God is the living God who does live and he love and communicates with man, teach them not to betray their husband or wife and abondon them giving their affection to others, teaching them to be strong in the Lord and not effiminate,teach them they are not ruled by their flesh or orientation man ought not to choose to lie with a man as with a woman it is an abomination and, teach them to be noble and not steal, swindle or e covetous. Affirm them in Christ who is righteous and loving.
Donovan,
How I wish we had more voices such as you on this topic! You’ve touched on the root of our challenge: many in the church who don’t know what it means to have a relationship with a God who loves them so much and who does so much for them that they will want to be like Him and live the way He wants them to live because of how much they have come to love Him.
Every believer I have met who struggles with homosexuality says the same thing: the basis for their faith is the incredible and undying love of God for them and how their relationship with God drives them to want to be like Him in spite of their desires. Truly, the key to overcoming is not how hard we work to comply with God’s standards, but how we rely on God’s incredible love for us to lift us up and transform us!
And who are you to say they’re unrighteous?
You know their heart? Do you know how many hairs are on their head? Did you know them before they were created in the womb?
Your judgmental attitude has no basis because of your interpretation of scripture…. if you knew scripture, Jesus said the 2 commandments that rest on the law and prophets is about loving others.
You clearly are not showing love.
The quickness with which you responded to accuse speaks volumes. I did not call anyone unrighteous, yet you accused me of that. I simply spoke about the power of God in the lives of redeemed homosexuals. If you’re not seeing that same power at work in your life or your church, then your energies would be more profitably spent in seeking to have God work in you and empower you than falsely accusing others.
I think I have been confused as to which “Reply” button to use. I heartily agree with Bill Sorenson that homosexuals should not be deprived of the privilege of companionship or physical affection. I am not sure who the following two paragraphs refer to. In any case, I have no question at all that members of the LGBT community will be ushered into the Kingdom of Heaven as they are.
Adventism continues its drift toward Babylon; certainly on the way to becoming a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, if it hasn’t already.
If you really want to cleanse the church of sinners, be honest and lead the way out the door.
“I believe that couples like [these folks asked that their real names be removed] are real Christian families. And because of that, I can’t accept that these people should be deprived of the privilege of companionship or physical affection.”
I sometimes wonder why people say the things they do? Is it because they are seeking other people’s opinions, inciting others or just outwardly displaying their beliefs which are contrary to the spiritually one needs to attain in order to enter the Kingdom of God?
Let me be a “Bible-Quoter” and ruffle some feathers:
“15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.” 1 Cor.6:15-18.
If people don’t acknowledge their transgressions before God, how can any sinner begin to accept the inner work of transformation by the Holy Spirit?
Acknowledging your sins is one thing and overcoming them is another. One of the reasons for the high suicide rate among homosexuals is the utter despair that fills a person who does not find forgiveness or hope in God’s power to overcome. There is far more to overcoming sin than just recognizing it. A person must learn to walk moment-by-moment and day-by-day in God’s forgiveness and redeeming, transforming love. The change takes time, something Bible-thumpers have a very difficult time doing because they’re demanding instant change. That false expectation, combined with many Christians having only a powerless form of godliness, is probably the biggest reason why religion is so utterly condemned in the homosexual community. One of the most truthful statements you will ever hear is how modern Christianity is powerless and ineffective at ministering to homosexuals. So I salute Loren Siebold for being willing to speak-out and share from his experience. We have much to learn from him.
William,
“A person must learn to walk moment-by-moment and day-by-day in God’s forgiveness and redeeming, transforming love.”
I’m not against the first part of this statement, but you give the impression that what really changes us is the “transforming love”. Love is God’s Character towards others, it demonstrates His relationship toward us, and is one aspect of His transforming Spirit within us. You speak about living in the power of the Holy Spirit; is that not a transforming power within each and every soul? Does not the Spirit search our spirit and hearts? Is that Love? Does not the Spirit reveal the Truth to us, bringing Light into our hearts, expelling the darkness? Is that Love? I’m a little confused as to how you define Love as the only “transforming” power of God?
If I have incorrectly distinguished the difference between the Love of God and the Power of His Spirit within our hearts, then please give me your understanding?
One of the amazing things I find in comparing personal experiences with God is how different aspects of Him are more significant than others to different people. I think it is a great illustration of how God deals with each of us personally. So, please, do not think I am drawing specific lines of separation between different attributes of God because He is an incredible whole being who wants us to experience a close and multi-dimensional relationship with Him. Yes, the transformation God works in us is the work of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is God living in us to change us and empower us.
God’s love is infused through every spiritual teaching. When I was going through a time of spiritual collapse and renewal it was God coming to me and reassuring me of His love when I felt utterly unworthy that drew me to Him. So I say God’s love is transformative because of how it transformed me and every redeemed person I know has a similar testimony, with their own personal variations, of course.
Where is the evidence that God gives the power to overcome homosexuality? Does he heal all those who pray for healing? Does he cure those with terminal cancer who believes they will be cured?
Holding out hope when there is no evidence that God will change a homosexual into a heterosexual is cruel. The only hope the church gives is a hopeless life of celibacy. How many young or older heterosexuals would be willing to face a life of celibacy with their partner? Why expect what you have not gained and hold false hope to the homosexual? Too many have tried celibacy and given up such a lonely life, some to suicide. Unless a man claims to understand women, he cannot begin to understand homosexuals.
“I sometimes wonder why people say the things they do?”
They do it Daniel, to be popular and get massive doses of affirmation of how “loving” and “kind” and wonderful Christians they are.
God has another opinion as you have well stated and affirmed in many places in the bible.
If Loren Seibold wants to insist that gay people are born gay then he might as well tell us the moon is made of cheese because it has holes. There is no definitive scientific evidence that gay persons are born gay. Yet every proponent tosses out this legerdemain. To further the discussion so what if science definitively states gays were born gay? So what…they then should be gay? Really on what basis? Because it makes me feel good? Really. This is the lefts ubiquitous solipsism of the moment.
It is easy for even the spiritually-minded to accept the “born that way” argument. Whether a person was raised believing in God, or they absorbed a degree of religious orientation from others, it is easy, even logical, to conclude that “God must have made me this way.” However, that logic ignores sin being opposed to God. Understanding that difference is foundational to building a transformative relationship with God.
You are SOOOO ignorant!!
Let me ask you something. Why would anybody choose to be gay or lesbian? Their lives would be much, much easier if they were straight, as many of these comments prove. Gays and lesbians do not choose to whom they are attracted, any more than they choose their eye color. Yes, there is scientific evidence that theirs is not a choice, and I am sure there will be even more proof in the future. I know a young gay SDA man who helps to organize church services every week. But I do not believe he is going to remain in the church. My only hope, at this point, is that he will remain a Christian in the Episcopalian or the Lutheran Church. I wish him only to be treated as he is, and with respect and dignity, and without trying to convince him that his attraction for men is disgusting or evil. I mean it!
As a single, non-practicing heterosexual, this is the only outcome that makes sense. The jury is still out on the ability to choose who you are attracted to. Certainly acting on it is a choice.
There is much more said about adultery than homosexuality after all.
The Bible says a whole lot more about gossiping and judging!
Thank you Loren for your words. Look how long the struggle for equality for women has taken and it will take a long time for homosexuals to be treated justly also but it is good to know there are many champions to get the ball rolling so to speak.
Loren, you have perfect access to scholars who could do the same research into the “gay” admonitions as was done on women being ordained. People to look at culture and translations and the Hebrew and Greek texts. That could help us relate in a more Christian way about the issue!
Man and woman are simply different. Not acknowledging this is one of the reason why their is so much confusion around intimacy between male and female. A lie can never be truth. It is human minds that are being warped because we are rejecting the light, we seem to love the darkness more than the light.
You are encouraging others to bear false witness and misrepresent the word of God to confuse people on what is clear in scripture, this is wickedness. Any scholar that teaches that a man should lie with a man as with a woman is also bearing false witness against scripture.
Donovan,
I don’t see anyone here condoning homosexual relations. What I do see is misunderstanding about how powerfully lies have been promoted so they are perceived as true and how terribly the spiritually-correct misunderstand the process of transformation that God works in sinners.
William,
You wrote: “What I do see is misunderstanding about how powerfully lies have been promoted so they are perceived as true and how terribly the spiritually-correct misunderstand the process of transformation that God works in sinners.”
I haven’t read all the comments here, but would you describe what you mean by “lies have been promoted” here?
Cherry,
You wrote: “People to look at culture and translations and the Hebrew and Greek texts.”
What would we gain in “looking into the Hebrew and Greek texts” in relation to desires of the flesh? Are there other messages within the Original Bible texts which we as English speaking nations are missing?
Thank you for adding your comments, Cherry! I actually did find a lot of encouragement here, too, despite most of my rants.
Craig,
You wrote: “As a single, non-practicing heterosexual, this is the only outcome that makes sense.”
Please tell us, how long must a person seek after God to arrive at that state? Who but that person can measure when they have arrived?
Thank you very much!
Loren,
While I do not believe the document is what it needs to be, I view it as a degree of progress in the direction in which the church needs to be moving. At least we’re talking about the issue instead of denying it exists.
The causes of homosexual behavior are a “Gordian knot” with multiple strands so woven together that it is impossible to untie them and the only practical spiritual approach I have seen is for a person to simply accept that they are what they are. But that is only a starting point because the next logical question is whether God wants to leave a person in that condition, or if God wants to transform them. The clear answer in scripture is that God not only wants to transform them but He also offers us the power to be changed. This confronts the church with at least three major challenges:
1) The intolerance by the piously religious, yet utterly unredeemed of homosexuals who are fellow sinners seeking God.
2) The dearth of experience in the church with the transforming power of God to give hope that God actually is able to change a person.
3) The overwhelming views in society that defend homosexuality and condemn faith in God.
Hebrews 7:25 says God is able to save “to the uttermost.” We each have lessons to learn about how God defines “uttermost” because his concept is so much larger than the concept of many who claim to be followers of God.
As someone who has spent my life in advertising and media, I have a different perspective on this subject than most. Briefly stated, my view is that people are born with a subjectivity tied to popular culture. They have no choice. Homosexuality has been around for thousands of years. No theological changes have been in ancient texts. What has changed is our culture’s perspective on the subject which should be the most relevant reason for our discussion. If you watch popular movies and television programming then you will reflect what you behold. It’s not that complicated. What’s complicated is the deception that we can watch something and believe we are unaffected.
Lars,
You wrote: “What’s complicated is the deception that we can watch something and believe we are unaffected.”
Believe it or not, most people think they are not influenced by everything which goes on around them. It’s a subtle but slow infiltration of the mind. And that applies to everything we read, hear and see. This is why Paul said to concentrate on everything that are “good”:
“8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.” Philippians 4:8.
Why are most here concentrating on the “Gay” aspect of “Human Sexuality”?
If people acknowledged that all desires of the flesh are sinful and contrary to living in the Spirit, that would give others a lead, indirectly, that their lifestyle needs changing also. Does the Bible concentrate on one aspect of sin? We all live contrary to God’s ways in one way or another. Pointing the finger at others in a self righteous way does not lead others to Christ. But making known the teachings of Christ through the Scriptures, in the first instance, makes others aware of what the Christian foundation is all about. We as Christians have an understanding through the Scriptures, and also through the Holy Spirit, which should be recognized by others as peculiar; attractive to others in a way which demonstrates to them something is not right with their own lifestyle. No one can change another person’s thinking; that’s up to God’s Spirit, it is His domain. But if our own foundation is becoming corrupted or conforming to the world, how will we as Christians be that light Christ was talking about?
There is a fine line between loving and accepting others as they are and at the same time appearing to them that we approve of their lifestyle. This is where some are failing in their approach towards those who need to be lead to Christ.
How many people have asked you to approve their lifestyle, whatever orientation?
How does the gay lifestyle differ from the hetero lifestyle that goes unquestioned?
How many have attended your church telling everyone they are homosexual?
How many people prior to church acceptance are asked such intimate questions as to the married status and their orientation?
Why does “accepting” someone also mean approval of their lifestyle?
How many members or prospective members are asked how they observe Sabbath? And if so, who determines it is either sinful or approved?
Unless someone has specifically asked you to approve the way they live, why is it anyone’s business? Prior to baptism, hopefully the pastor has gotten better acquainted with each before membership.
Thank you, Elaine.
Over the years I have seen a number of good friends “just stop” going to church as they were not accepted. The hostility/whispers of various SDA congregation members drove them away. Anytime I step foot inside any church. I remind myself I am entering a house of man not God. God may be there, but many of the confinement rules, guidelines, and policies were designed by man. The dark whispers I hear are not Gods. One of the main core elements of Christ’s life on earth (though brief it was) was to accept those that were despised cast out. One parable rings true today:
Luke 18:9-14 (NIV): The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves.
Try taking “Tax Collector” out and inserting “Gay” and you have a parable for the 21 century. (Thank you Loren for addressing this, you are daring & I support…
Thank you Bjork! Your comments are much better than the ones I have expressed here, and I wish my comments could have been written as eloquently. It makes me weep to read comments from people you assume gays or lesbians will not inherit the kingdom, among other judgmental comments. Your remarks here are like a balm in Gilead!
Thank you Janet! Have watched as my fellow brothers and sisters of earth are tormented by ones “who believe they have the best intentions.” Informed they will go to hell, informed their mindset can be corrected by training campus/therapy, and informed that they are evil. Just reminds me our smallish human minds have not progressed much beyond the middle ages when we burned hundreds of “supposed” witches at stakes because we were led to believe that they caused the Black Death (some of them may have practicing the dark arts but many were killed that were not). Back in 1994 I remember being horrified when Pat Robertson announced that the LA Earthquake was due to God’s displeasure with Gays and Lesbians. This continues to this day, even to Hurricane Katrina. We also do not understand a lot about the human brain, Neuroscientists are barely scratching the surface us of what drives us to be human. To claim we know everything about the human brain and humanity in general, what makes us tick as humans, is a fallacy. Recently I revisited the movie Back to the Future. One quote gets me every time: Doc – “It means your future hasn’t been written yet. No one’s has. Your future is whatever you make it. So make it a good one, both of you.”
Again, Bjork, you have overwhelmed me with your well written comments! Thank you, thank you for posting! I believe God gave us our brains so that we could discover His truth, and I know there are more exciting discoveries to come that will shed more light on the subject matter here. I remember Jerry Falwell saying that the AIDS epidemic was wrought by God as a curse upon gays! These kinds of statements are to be condemned, I agree.
Tax Collector is a profession, Being “Gay” is not profession.
Should we replace tax collector with the profession of Pimping, drug dealing, prostitution, evil doer or adulterer ect? then your anology may be correct.
The pharasee was proud, pride is sinful especially because the proud will not listen to the spirit of God, and if one reject and will not listen to the the word or Spirit of God what hope is their for them. Has Solomon says Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. Now the Word of God teaches expressely that we should not lie with a man as with a woman. Is it possible that a “gay” person not accepting the word of God is being proud or concieted like the pharasee?
Pastors who teaches that it is right and a privelege for a man to lie with a woman as with a man and chastise the SDA church for not accepting and affirming homosexuality is clearely confident in their own righteousness and is looking down on the church like the selfrighteous pharasee I think.
At the rapidity of the cultural change in accepting same sex marriage, it is safe to assume that in a few short years the church will accept momogamous same sex marriage just as they have accepted divorced and remarried.
In the meantime, many non-gay young people will have left as they are far more for justice and mercy and accepting people as they are, not trying to change them. The same goes for families who have seen their gay loved one rejected, their relationship to the church because of this has left them cold.
The leaders are nearly always 50-60 years old and have maintained their original thoughts and are not amenable to such changes. Yet they, or their predecessors, have accepted divorced and remarriage for a number of years. Pror to that acceptance, it was most difficult to remain a member if divorced or remarried. The times they are a’changin’.
Elaine,
You wrote: “In the meantime, many non-gay young people will have left as they are far more for justice and mercy and accepting people as they are, not trying to change them.”
“Justice and mercy”?
There is so much selfishness; self-seeking; do your own thing; who cares about anyone else; neglect for others rights and wellbeing; and yes, lawlessness, going on in this world. So, how do you see “justice and mercy”, or for that matter, what version of justice and mercy are you referring to?
Daniel, what justice and mercy are you referring to? The young gay Adventists I know are not selfish, they care about others, they are not lawbreakers. I suspect that gay people do not confide their sexual orientation to you because it is probably quite clear to everyone that you see them in this light – lawbreakers, and the like. Jesus did not disassociate himself from the kind of people you have described, and I think perhaps you should reflect on this truth.
Elaine, your conclusion may be correct if we reject the counsel of God through John and Love the world more than the love of the Father.
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Should we defile the sanctuary of God and marry same sex couples we are following the world and not the clear revelation of God our Father and Creator.
Homosexuality is not a choice the bible and Ellen White both affirm this when they say we are all born sinners. Quite simply, we don’t choose TO sin we choose NOT to sin, all sin is a natural part of us.
Also denying that homosexual is a sin because “it is not meant to be interpreted so plainly”(which is in essence what most pro-gay Christians teach) always confused me, I mean, if we use this key to understand those texts should we not also extend to the whole chapter or even book? In that case if we do this to the chapter in Leviticus then Incest is okay
Wholeheartedly agree, Gavin! What’s good for the goose is good for the ganse. Sadly, we are very selective and subjective beings.
Gays and lesbians do not choose their sexuality any more than they choose their eye color.
And I take that to mean we don’t choose Christ either?
It is absolutely a choice if we should lie with a man as with a woman.
Those promoting Women’s Ordination, Gay rights and lawlessness in general, is that being Christ centered or self-centered?
I’d be interested to know the age of Bill, Daniel and Donovan. I suspect (but I could be wrong) that their views are from an older generation. I suspect they don’t even know any openly gay people.
I am from a ‘younger’ generation (I’m 36) and half to live in the real world as it actually exists – not the pretend one they live in. I live in the world that Jesus lived, full of drunks, prostitutes and other terrible sinners Jesus fellowshipped with.
I work with two close Lesbians. I have to fellowship with them 8-9 hours per day, 5 days a week. In that sort of situation one can’t maintain the sort of homophobic views that many are showing here.
Do I condone their sexual activities. No I don’t. But do I accept them as people. Yes I do. Do I realise that their homosexuality is not a choice, and not something one can simply ‘pray the gay away’ any more than a man who had a limb amputated can pray and expect God to miraculously get it back.
I appreciate the nuances that Pastor Seinbold and indeed the NAD scholars recognise. I really do love my gay friends even if I don’t disagree with their sexual activities. I think they should be celibate (realising how hard that is). Nonetheless, I fear many Bill’s, Daniel’s and Donovan’s of the world don’t understand these nuances.
I fear that while they say they love the sinner and hate the sin, they actually hate the sinner. I could be wrong and hope I am. But the comments posted so far don’t give me confidence.
Steve,
Thank you for your insight into my age and understanding of my environment.
“I fear that while they say they love the sinner and hate the sin, they actually hate the sinner. I could be wrong and hope I am.”
Steve, you would be wrong. But, lets all love everyone and hate God instead; that’s what Love is all about, is it not?
Thank you very much for your comments here, Steve!
“Do I realise that their homosexuality is not a choice, and not something one can simply ‘pray the gay away’ any more than a man who had a limb amputated can pray and expect God to miraculously get it back.”
Comparing spiritual matters with physical?
Is heterosexuality all physical? If a man is attracted to a woman as a future wife is it all physical? If not, why is homosexuality all physical? Who told you that?
Elaine,
Once again you completely misunderstood my comment.
I was replying to Steve’s comment.
I’m not God. But it appears you are. So you know it all!
If you compare the heterosexual physical attraction to homosexual physical attractions then what you are saying is that God put those attractions within the homosexual’s heart. You couldn’t be further from the Truth! But, on the other hand, a god did put them there, Satan, the god of this world! Which god are you talking about?
It must be wonderful to know God’s mind. Why are you so certain that God did not create someone who is gay? Does he also create deformed children, those with Down’s syndrome or mentally retarded? Does he expect of them what he does of those who are defined as the larger part of the population?
Paul said it was better to marry than burn (with lust). Why doesn’t that apply to homosexuals who choose to marry and be monogamous? The Bible writers knew nothing of homosexual orientation just as they knew nothing of genetics or that the mother contributed her genes equally to the child. They were ignorant compared to what we know today, but tomorrow we hope to learn more about everything.
Does anyone here refuse to accept the best and newest medical advances if he has a loved one who is very ill? Or does he refer to the Bible as his medical textbook to diagnose and treat? Not when his loved one’s life depends on modern medicine. But for understanding homosexuality, the Bible is their only guide.
Divorce is much worse and affects families, but the church has learned to live with it because they must if they want to help broken families. The church also accepts remarriage. In a few years the church will, inevitably, accept same sex marriage or lose many more than the same sex marrieds.
Because we can read our BIBLES and serve HIM; not ourselves?
Romans 1:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
They did it to themselves and of course we encourage instead of helping them.
We accept the best and newest medical advances; directly from those that are most qualified and follow HIM. The APA and most of the secular organizations still have like statements “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation.”
Yes divorce affects families; we should be fixing that. What are children within the ideologies of this classification; byproducts or desired ownership to norm?
Why are you a couch worrier; while the rest of us supply the needs and fix the issues? Could it be that you are never commanded to Love as Christ? Why do we have to deal with the increased domestic abuse and in concern and care for the children within such classification? Did you want to help with that or help with anything?
Steve,
You are right. Those whose spiritual life is focused primarily on doctrine and legalistic obedience to God’s law often have no experience with the love of God so they don’t know the difference between loving and condemning.
Isn’t sexual/gender identity part of our body so it would be a physical component. Why is that the only born with difference that we make immoral? If it is a birth/womb/cell dividing thing then how is the baby at fault?! Why should that precious little baby have to live with being shunned, discriminated against, told he/she is an abomination and feel that they are not worthy of God’s love or belonging to a christian community????????
Don’t you think after all these 1000 of years if one could pray the gay away it would have happened if it wasn’t a ‘born with’ situation?! What other ‘born with’ aspect can one pray away? Can you pray away diabetes, mental issues, missing limbs, clef palate, heart anomalies, chromosomal variances etc? I would love to pray away some traits I was born with!!!!!
I suggest that people who are so condemning against homosexuals only will have a change of heart if/when they have a close relative that is gay especially if it is one of their children. How can I sit in church telling someone else all about their eye specks if I have a tree in my eye? No one who sits in church is a non practicing sinner!!! We are all practicing one sin or another!
“diabetes, mental issues, missing limbs, clef palate, heart anomalies, chromosomal variances etc.
People with the above list goes to the doctor for treatment. Until recently homosexuality was a mental health issue it is now beint claimed now being claimed that babies are born “gay”. That is a Lie.
The word of God condemns a man laying with a man as with a woman. We condemn the sin not he sinner. Your claim that no one has ever overcome homosexuality flies in the face of the testimony of person who have who have abondon that life style and is growing in Christ.
Stop exploiting our love for children to promote gay agenda by claiming babies are born gay.
Babies are not born heterosexual or homosexual. Only at puberty do the hormones kick in causing each to be interested in getting better acquainted.
Unless you can remember from your birth you were heterosexual, it also applies to homosexuals.
You are born with the dormant hormones waiting to be ignited.
Treatment is palliative and not curative. Taking a pill doesn’t do away with something you are born with.
Hi Steve I am actually younger than you (35), I have also worked in the pass with homosexual persons both male and female at two separate jobs. Neither of which was in my face or any other co-worker as far as I am aware with their homosexual activities. The Universtity that I attended surprise surprise had openly homosexual on campus.
The company that I work for also encourage respect to our customers as a part of our code of Conduct, so If a openly homosexual couple should seek to do business or employment, I would not run them out.
If a openly homosexual couple seeks acceptance and affirmation in homosexuality at the house of the Lord however, I would speak out against it. I am a Christian, I believe that the word of God is true the laws of God are beautiful ordinances that have been given to humanity for our guide and upliftment.
A man laying with a man as with a woman is not right, it is an abomination that is the right name for such activity. This is not homophobia this is reality. I do not hate homosexuals, I find homosexualty to be an abomination against the creation of Lord.
What the pastor who wrote this article is promoting is a subtle evil, to create doubt in the word of God. I believe his actions is selfishness like Balam seeking and loving the honor and affirmation of men rather than being viewed as a peculiar and weird SDA.
Do not be decieved. Encouraging homosexuality is not a loving act. It is ignorance or wickedness.
Should we assume that you also speak out against divorced and remarried people as members? Keeps you pretty busy unless you are in a very small church. BTW: how many divorced or gay people still attend your church?
“Encouraging homosexuals”? Who is doing that? Welcoming people who wish to worship at the church you attend without question is what Christ would do. It was hypocrisy that he spoke against and I don’t recall that he ever mentioned homosexuals, but perhaps you’re memory is better
Divorced and remarried people are not claiming to be born that way, without a choice.
I do not question people about their personal lives unless it is a close friend. We promote Christ and the word of God at church.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. NIV
Paul says that practicing homosexuality is unsound doctrine. Is this truth or error?
Yudelis,
Thank you for your response.
Owners and management of companies exert authority over their employees. The arrogance and abuse many managers and company owners display against their employees is evidence that they think their company stands solely by their own single handed efforts. Little do they know, or blatantly deny, is that without the hard labor and sweat of their employees their company would not even get off the ground, let alone be prosperous. And so the same spirit is displayed here. It’s not a privilege, we’re all part of that system which keeps turning.
There is within the Adventist conservative community a sense that the Church will either fail or succeed, as men (gender-exclusive) rise in heroic splendor, or crumble under the weight and influence of sin. Very little credence is given to any notion that the”perfection” of the church will be due not so much to heroic ministry of a few, but an enormous outpouring of sanctified talent and energy invested by a multitude of leaders. This multitude may or may not be doctrinally perfect, but they will contributed to a perfect ministry, all told.
I have known many fine Adventist people who so fear “doing something wrong” that they try to accomplish very little, perhaps believing that in doing nothing they will never have a chance to err. Within that context, those who do experiment a bit and try new approaches are often declared to be “liberals” and they are shunned, as unworthy enemies of traditional faith…..
Edwin,
You wrote: “Very little credence is given to any notion that the “perfection” of the church will be due not so much to heroic ministry of a few, but an enormous outpouring of sanctified talent and energy invested by a multitude of leaders.”
“Do not be many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation”. James.
There is only One Shepherd, Jesus Christ; and He is the Head of His Church. I’m sure you understand that, Edwin?
The Psychiatric profession claims to know how the human mind works. But what I have seen here at Atoday is absolutely amazing! Not only do some think they know how the human mind works but they appear to know absolutely everything about the human body! DNA containing “gay tendencies”? Are you for real? Are some of you here even human? Why do I say that? Because you’re sounding more like God Himself!
Bill, as you share your belief in the Ten Commandments, You insist on every believer to keep those “TEN COMMANDS”, to receive Salvation. What you are insisting on is a complete impossibility for sinful man to do. If God, likewise, insists on the creature to keep these “TEN” condemnatory laws, not a single soul would be resurrected to eternal life. The mature Christian believes in the Ten Commands, and loves the LORD GOD with all that within his conscious heart can offer, also makes every effort to love and aid his neighbors, in total trust, and belief, that the Lord Jesus Christ will, by His Grace, accept every sinner who repents, and accepts
the Grace, which paid the price, by the shedding of His Perfect Precious
Blood which flowed on Calvary. Christ paid the price demanded for all sin with His Blood ransom that cancelled the condemnation of the “Ten Commands”; By giving a “New Commandment” of perfect Godly LOVE, that the sinner avails himself of, “Loving His Almightiness, walking in the paths of Christ’s Righteousness, and LOVING his neighbor the same. If mankind must perfectly be under the Ten Commands, that demands the sinner’s death, not a single soul will have eternal life. Jesus Christ is of the Godhead.
It seems that Elder Seibold, while appreciative of the spirit and document that emerged from Annual Council, feels it did not go far enough; instead only setting “anchor stakes,” delineating a baseline from which future efforts may advance. I wonder, Loren, if you might be so kind as to set forth parameters of a statement you feel would an ideal statement of what you think the position of the SDA church on this issue ought to ultimately be?
Would appreciate you read my comment posted 7 comments above, for some reason?? Although it was the latest hourly dated for Nov 5th.
please read my comment posted 7 items above.
Management, are we playing games here??
God BLESS America.
Monitor, okay, you win.
As a Christian, I have struggled with the issue of homosexuality ever since I met my gay best friend when I was twenty. In the beginning, I spent many hours with Jon as he researched the history and culture at the times the very few mentions of homosexuality were written into Scripture, desperately trying to find a way to reconcile his sexuality with his love for God. Having been raised in a small community and baptized into a conservative Dutch Reformed church, and having attended services, Sunday school and weekly Bible studies religiously, and having come from a prominent and respected family, news that Jon was gay spread like an aggressive cancer after a church member spied him kissing another young man. Upon this revelation, the church leaders told a teenaged Jon that as a homosexual, he was no longer welcome to fellowship with them. His parents, however (even though they loved and supported Jon), remained members of the congregation. I could see the pain and betrayal Jon felt over how his church “family” had treated him, and their collective reaction only further distressed him and caused him to endlessly question whether he was worthy of God’s love and Christ’s offer of redemption and salvation. It was only after Jon hung himself from the rafters of a dairy barn that the church considered its part in the tragedy and how it could learn to love, rather than reject and condemn, homosexual members or visitors.
After seventeen years of friendship with Jon, I can…
I can attest that he was the sweetest, kindest, most generous, loving and genuine people I have ever known. HOW, I questioned, could a loving God who hard-wired into most of us the need for a mate, tell someone so wonderful but who had the misfortune to be BORN gay, that he could not have the very thing most of us crave above all things: a parter, a lover, a soulmate, an “other” with whom to spend our lifetime? How is a man who forms a monogamous lifetime bond with another man “damned” when he is observing the very sanctity of marriage that a heterosexual Christian couple observes? How can God, Who created in Adam the need to love and be loved by another, condemn that very same need in a homosexual? Surely He understands that instinctive, visceral need and that sin is at fault for monkeying with sexual orientation, not the gay individual! Certainly God finds it “okay” for the homosexuals to commit him- or herself to a monogamous lifelong relationship with a partner of the same sex! And for almost two decades, that was my position on homosexuality: it’s acceptable to God if “practiced” monogamously with a lifetime partner because God understands their need for togetherness.
But here’s the crux of it: God DOES understand that need – after all, He engineered it! But just because He understands it doesn’t mean He condones it, just as He understands all sin yet condemns it. The problem, as I see it, is that we get our human emotions all mixed up in the matter of…
Homosexuality – derision, fear, empathy, love and hatred. We humanize the issue (it’s only natural to do!), but we need to step back and truly seek out God’s will in the matter.
When faced with such a challenging issue as homosexuality, I always ponder and pray over the two things I understand the most about God: God is love, and God doesn’t change. This leads me, then, to two conclusions: God loves every homosexual just as much as He loves me, and that God’s original design for human sexuality HAS NOT CHANGED and therefore the sexual expression of love for another is reserved exclusively for the lifetime-committed heterosexual couple. We can take any “twist” on human sexuality and substitute it for homosexuality – pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality: God understands that sin has perverted human sexual appetites (even heterosexual ones! Consider threesomes, “swinging” and sex addicts), but that God understands it doesn’t equate to His condonation of it.
So where does that leave the homosexual who wants to obey God? In a truly challenging and unenviable position, because he or she must fight their human nature and their inborn craving to physically love and be loved by another. It would be impossible if not for the gift of the Spirit, because only a spiritual mind can overcome a carnal craving. The sex drive is the most powerful there is, and many a heterosexual has succumbed to it in a sinful manner. Consider only the account of King David and Bathsheba – not…
only did David knowingly and willfully commit adultery, but he knowingly and willfully had Bathsheba’s husband murdered when it came to light that his mistress was pregnant! How much less “abominable” is it to commit adultery and to murder than for a man to have sex with another man? Not less, I think, but more! David broke four commandments in his lustful pursuit of Bathsheba: he coveted the wife of one of his soldiers, he stole her from him, he committed adultery with the man’s wife, and then he had him murdered! Pretty damning sinfulness, there. And yet, the Bible tells us that David was a man “after God’s own heart”. Despite his sinful nature, and despite having given into his sinful nature (and his transgressions with Bathsheba aren’t the extent of it), David still LOVED GOD and tried his best to follow God’s will.
My ultimate point: God loves every sinner. Christ would have died for a solitary homosexual, just as He would have died for a solitary adulterer, or liar, or thief. Who is any one among us, no matter how righteous, in any position to judge another sinner? Judgement is not our job – it is Christ’s. Condemnation is not our punishment to mete out – it is God’s. We have been commanded by our Savior to LOVE one another and to gently correct one another when we stumble over the rock that is our human nature. And even if one among us stumbles and stays down – an alcoholic, a thief, a lover of money, a Sabbath breaker, a homosexual – we are STILL…
commanded to love one another! We need to pray ceaselessly that God empowers us to overcome our carnal minds with our spiritual minds, and enables us to look with spiritual eyes upon each other so that we may see what Jesus sees: a sinner in need of love and grace. And then we need to extend to one another the same.
Let’s try to see each other as Christ sees us. It’s a humbling and sometimes embarrassing exercise, because each of us hides something we don’t want the world to see. But God sees it and He loves us anyway, in whatever condition He finds us.
My apologies to the editors for the length of these posts – I feel very, very strongly on this issue, as I wrestled with it for almost two decades because of my love for my gay best friend. Nobody should be driven by others’ prejudices, fears, hatred or misunderstandings to hang themselves from the rafters of a barn, particularly when those others are “Christians”.
It seems somebody tries making us to believe that God’s commandments are not important but important is that you are a “good Christian”.
I have a question to the author what is it good Christian according to him and what is it according to Lord?
Strange that people(“GOOD” Christians) nowadays ready to forget and brake God’s commandments so easy just to be suitable to the modern society.
Let`s listen what Lord Himself says in His word (The Bible) about it.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9,10)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
(Galatians 6:7)
Milka,
No argument there.
Here’s the challenge: How do you translate that statement condemning sin into ministry that draws people into a loving and transforming relationship with God. Yes, God identifies sin and declares that all sin leads to death. But God also loved us enough to send Jesus to pay the penalty in our place. He loves us so much that He is able to save “unto the uttermost” all who come to Him by faith (Hebrews 7:25). So, how do you imagine to ever see a homosexual converted and saved so long as you are focused on the identification and condemnation of sin instead of God’s love? Do you even believe God wants to save homosexuals, or that God is powerful enough to save them?
Nobody says that God doesnt love homosexuals or killers, or pedophiles, or drug dealers or whoever. Lord loves EVERY humanbeing and Jesus died for everyone and everyone has the same right to be saved if they accept God`s mercy and believe. BUT the deal is that God welcome a sinner , but God doesnt welcome a sin. He loves a sinner , but He hates a sin.
GOD`S LAW (10 commandments) DOES MATTER!
3 Angels`s message says:
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Revelation 14:12)
Jesus Himselfs says :
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(John 14:15)
Who wants to get God`s salvation should change with the power of God. That`s the point.
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
(Ephesians 4:22-24)
Bill, I question your assertion that if we don’t “cease to sin, then we do not qualify for heaven…” If even one among us could “cease to sin”, would there have been a need for that ghastly crimson and tortured scene at a place called Golgatha? If you or I could “cease to sin”, what need would we have of a Savior? His blood came at a terrible price, yet you seem to think that we have it within our own paltry power to do (earn salvation by obeying the law) or not do (sin). I sin in some way, consciously and unconsciously, every day! I break the speed limit (I’m always running behind schedule!), I swear when something really hurts or honks me off, I lose patience with my son, I say something unkind to my husband, I glare at the guy who cut me off, I look at a sexy actor with a little more than casual interest. It is not to cease sinning that I call out to my Savior, but that I CAN’T cease sinning that I admit my need for His grace and my Father’s forgiveness. I am a broken, deeply flawed, imperfect human – there is not a SINGLE thing I can do on my own power, because even the very breath of my body belongs to God. Not one among us is capable of “ceasing to sin”, although some of us have a closer relationship with God and therefore sin less (I am not among that number, because I am weak and falter often). But don’t put out there that becoming a Christian means that we stop sinning because that’s far from true. We only become more aware of our sinful nature and…
Heather,
What if your friend was not gay but a Christian cannibal. Would you expect him to stop eating humans, or would you tell him to carry on because he was “born” that way, engineered by God to kill and eat other humans, and there was just no reasonable hope he could ever stop doing that?
Now what if this Christian cannibal happened to kill and eat one of your children, would you say that’s okay because God will accept him just as he is and we will all live together in heaven?
* Note on my post dated 11/6 at 12:21 pm: Although Christians are imperfect believers hidden under the cleansing layer of Christ’s blood, this does not give us license to sin. Sin, in any context, is still an unholy thing and hated by God. But as long as we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness, Christ’s blood covers our human imperfections. It is when we willfully sin, feel no compunction for it and cease to ask for forgiveness that Christ’s blood no longer hides us and we become subject to the consequence of sin (death, that is, eternal destruction).
Heather,
You are correct. The only problem with that statement is how quickly the self-righteous accuse others of deliberately sinning when God may be giving them more victories over sin and making more progress in cleansing them from their sin than their accusers!
“I never thought that in my lifetime I would see so many church leaders understand that homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual.”
Loren, with all respect for your enthusiam – but this has been official Adventist position for quite some time (ignored by many, I admit). “Shoking” indeed is the document not only because it is reducing sexuality to LGBT issues (you pointed out the misnomer), but mostly because apparently it is still needed. Even if you consider homosexuality a sin – never mind the differentiation between “being” and “doing (exactly what?)” – it should be obvious that followers of the One who had communion with sinners and outcasts cannot but welcome them as they seek communion with us.
Of course – we will immediately hear “But Jesus said: go and sin no more.” Yes – and I never sinned after I heard that injunction? And worse: we interpret the sentence as if in this fallen world we could always choose between good and evil. We call it “good” to drop a commitment to your partner. We call it “good” to suppress and deny your drives (ever heard arguments agains celibacy of priests?). What I am suggesting is not condoning sinful behaviour, but acknowledging that things are a bit more complicated in a fallen world AND that church is a community of sinners. Our pre-occupation with homosexuality is an indictment against us. It smells of a beam in light of a splinter.
It’s interesting that the author stated people are born gay, and then notes that his friend in college “discovered” that he was gay. Where will the logic of this argument lead us?
I discovered booze at a young age, so I guess I was created to be a drunk!
I discovered cigarettes at a young age, so I guess I was created to smoke!
I discovered drugs at a young age, so I guess I was created to be an addict!
Stop sugar coating the problem by saying people are “born” gay. Tell it like it is, The gospel of John says Jesus made everything, therefore Jesus made them gay, Jesus created them gay! Why not come clean with the real arguement behind this movement, I was “born” a sinner, therefore I can’t stop sinning, I should embrace sinning, God really wants me to be a sinner because He made me this way!
Jesus warns us not to embrace the “doctrines of Balaam” (brings the teachings and practices of other religions and faiths into our own churches because they are popular and seem like the right thing to do), that they will cause us to be lost.
At creation Jesus made male and female and told them to go forth and multiply. Teaching that Jesus altered this plan and now creates some men to be homosexual and some women to be lesbians is pretty sick. In saying people are born (created) that way without any choice or ability to be any other way is to teach this is an extra punishment God inflicted on mankind because of sin. Not only were we all doomed to die because of…
…….but some of us based on random chance are inflicted with the extra punishment of being born gay!
This quote should make us all have a real concern for what God requires…..
“I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.
I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building.”
EW 71
Victory over sin is not just a goal, but a possibility promised by God. If we excuse our failure by appealing to human weakness, we put our mindset in a condition that will never obtain the final victory God has ordained for those who seek it.
The policy of this church throughout its history.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. NIV
Now that many in our church are rejecting the above doctrine, does the following scripture apply?
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The policy of this church throughout its history.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. NIV
Now that many in our church are rejecting the above doctrine, does the following scripture apply?
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Thank you again for your insights Loren!
Some are born homosexual. All are born sinful, why?? To be borne with a death penalty overhanging your nature, why?? With a Perfect God, why are his creations subject to unspeakable pain, suffering, and death, why?? Because of the rebellion and failure of the most beautiful and intelligent creature ever created, mankind on Earth has had to suffer the penalty of untold torture, pain, anguish, and hell on Earth, why?? A God that knows the end from the beginning, a loving GOD that offers mankind this type of loving experience, why?? Often its said we cannot know God’s mind, what He knows, how He thinks. It’s true,
never in our lifetime would we gain sufficient wisdom, to uncover the game plan, with Earthly reasoning, or logic. Though He destroy me, yet I trust Him, why??
God was not destroying Job, Job knew God well enough to know that He was trust worthy.
Trust God.
IT’S ok with me if you wish to censure or remove my comments. Although I’ve made the last timed comment on this thread, please explain to me why you insert my comment approx. 50 back spaces.
Few will have access to it.
Heather, either you are 1000% correct in your summation of the Christian’s future with Christ Jesus, or only a 2 or 3 on this thread will have eternal life with God.
Identifying the social and religious response to what is today termed homosexuality as a matter of doctrine, is soundly biblical.
Doctrine, of course, is fluid across time. We no longer circumcise as a religious principle rooted in long-standing doctrine backed by the very words of God.
Women are no longer chattle, nor are slaves, both instances of which for long periods of time were considered sound biblical doctrine.
In our own Seventh-day Adventist church, barely 150 years in existence, historians remind us that today while the church stands squarely on the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity none of the founders believed in the Trinity, and some resisted such belief rather boldly.
Indeed, the Seventh-day Adventist church was founded purposely without a statement of Biblical beliefs because the founders simply could not agree on any such list.
What is without biblical example to the contrary is that Jesus never once pre-conditioned or post-conditioned his love for any human. As he said, the world will know his disciples because of their love one for another, love that arises uniquely from the sense of having been loved by Jesus himself just as we are, still.
One doesn’t have to be a prophet to have predicted the advent of the homosexual agenda now closely trailing behind the militant (anti-patriarchal) feminist assault which the church has been bombarded with since the NAD’s renegade Mohaven chapter – which then, and now, is the direct result of the dominant culture leading the pack.
The NAD (yet again) in fulfilling both the role of opinion leader and change agent by voting in this way on this matter, once again falls prey to the dictates of the dominant culture as they further lose their grips on the Bible being the basis for our faith. The Church should not be a puppet of a secular ungodly government.
The term sexual orientation, isn’t a biblical teaching and is of a sinful human construct coined to normalise sexual immorality. A person sexually attracted to children or other preferred sexually immoral behaviour may argue that they are orientated this way – or ‘born’ like this. Does that make it an acceptable Christian virtue? If you’ve answered no, then full marks for you.
Surprisingly though, so-called progressives vying for gay rights in the Church, turn a blind eye to the fact that there is no conclusive scientific evidence that proves that sexual orientation in the context of ‘what floats your boat’ is in fact a true component of human sexuality. All the markers still point to the biblical teaching of what is the norm – and of course what is a perversion of that norm. Let’s not kid ourselves…
“As Daneen Akers, producer with her husband of Seventh-Gay Adventists, pointed out, there weren’t gay people involved in crafting it. That’s a huge flaw.”
It would be like asking a murderer to help to decide on the sentencing procedure and duration. Too bad the writer made such an unsupportable statement.
I just came across this thread, and I’m amused by how absolutely hateful it is. One would be hard pressed to find a more rotten, vile group of people than SDAs. Really disgusting bunch you all are. You’re almost caricatures of yourselves, in fact.
Have fun with your bronze age bullshit, you fucks. 🙂