The Downside of Testimonies
by Mark Gutman, March 13, 2015: An Adventist lady had planned to fly from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday, July 17, 2014, as part of a trip that would end in Ambon, Indonesia, on July 19. Since 1991 she has worked with the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO), which is kind of a United Nations for “indigenous peoples, minorities, and unrecognised or occupied territories” who “are not adequately represented at major international fora, such as the United Nations.”1
“In all of my [many] UNPO missions, no matter where I’ve gone, I have kept the Sabbath and not once set foot on an airplane,”2 she later wrote. Three days before the flight, she realized that July 19 was a Sabbath, which meant that she would be flying on Sabbath. “[God’s] Spirit spoke to me during our (the lady and her husband’s) devotional on Monday morning and told me, ‘If you take this route, you will travel on the Sabbath. Don’t.’” So she changed her flight schedule, notified UNPO on Tuesday, then confirmed the flight change, and flew on Wednesday instead of Thursday.
The plane she had originally been scheduled to fly from Amsterdam was shot down while it was over Ukraine, in an incident heavily covered by the media. But our church member, having changed her schedule to leave Amsterdam on Wednesday, was busily and safely at work for UNPO. “I am here to witness that God has spared me because I need to continue my mission here in Ambon and be available to aid people in our world who need help,” she said. Likewise, a commenter on the website asserted, “It doesn’t mean that God was not concerned about the lives of those that perished. It just means that He still has a work for this lady to do, and that is why she was impressed to change her ticket.”
Others were no longer necessary
She may indeed have been spared because she had a work to do but “it appears that some of the world’s leading AIDS researchers lost their lives. The Australian reported that 108 of of the passengers were researchers and their families, who were en route to the 20th International AIDS Conference in Melbourne.”3 Would we be justified in concluding that either their work was not as important or that their particular role was no longer important? Is it a given that nobody else on the plane had more work to do?
Statements we make praising God for his goodness to us often seem insulting to others or relatives of others who did not fare as well. Such comments may also fail to back up and take in a larger picture. Since we only interview survivors, no evidence can now be provided by the unfortunate deceased passengers. There is no way to find out how many people were flying that particular plane because they had felt similarly impressed that God’s Spirit was telling them that they should be on it. After all, they weren’t breaking the Sabbath by flying on Thursday.
Just reporting the facts
The writer of the Review article about the flight switch felt that “an article should focus on the biggest, most relevant story for its audience. In this case, the audience is primarily Adventist and has a special interest in the case of a fellow Adventist associated with MH17 [the Malaysian airlines flight number].” In other words, if this is what people want to read, let’s supply it. He also defended his writing with “The article only reports the facts,” which reminds me of a story (probably a fable) about a captain and a first mate.
On a special occasion, the first mate of a ship got drunk. The captain reported in the ship’s log, “The first mate was drunk today.” The mate pleaded with the captain to remove the sentence, pointing out that it could delay the mate’s captaincy by months or years. The ship’s captain stated firmly, ”If it is true, it has to go in the log. That’s the rule. End of discussion!” A few weeks later, the first mate got to make the log entries. He wrote, “The ship seems in good shape. The captain was sober today.” “We report only the facts” could more accurately be stated as “We report only the facts that we select to make our case.” The facts we report may lead people to incorrect conclusions, but at least the conclusions will be more like our own. “60 Minutes,” FoxNews, and “the liberal media” have all been accused of such one-sided reporting.
If it worked for me. . . .
Eye-catching headlines or articles often claim cause-effect relationships that don’t exist. For example, “The number of vaccines children are receiving is increasing, and the number of children who are being diagnosed with autism at some time after being vaccinated is on the rise. Therefore vaccines must cause autism.”4 As has been brought to our attention recently, such reasoning, known as post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: “after this, therefore because of this”), may be very wrong, but can win a lot of followers.
Because one lady felt impressed not to take a certain flight and thus missed dying in a plane crash, some have gathered that it is dangerous to fly on a commercial airline on Sabbath (although the plane crashed on Thursday). One can read too much into a coincidence. One can also read too much into a sample of one. Deciding we want to believe something often results in a “confirmation bias” (reread “Just reporting the facts”), which is “a type of cognitive bias that involves favoring information that confirms previously existing beliefs or biases.”5
Follow God, and you’re safe
Reporting stories that appear “providential” can create the impression that recognizing God’s impressions is fairly straightforward. And when God impresses, you obey. But we don’t know how many people were impressed that they should be on that plane, perhaps to accomplish some good deed. Nor have we been given a report on how often the good lady has impressions that turn out to be useless. (“I should go back and make sure that I turned off the oven.”)
Scientists warn us against basing important decisions on anecdotal evidence. The fact that three people took the snake oil I sold them and got better doesn’t prove that my snake oil is good, even though it increases my snake oil sales. (Reread also about post hoc ergo propter hoc.) Some commenters were so impressed (unnerved?) by this event that they had started rethinking their travel plans (. . . the commandment doesn’t exactly say not to fly on Sabbath, but why take chances?)
Conclusions
Sometimes our cheery testimonies strike others as unkind barbs or unproven claims. Our looking good in one story can lead us and others to forget that an incident in which we shine proves neither our sainthood nor our theories. If we can tell who is on God’s side by observing who escapes calamity, we’d better delete Job from our Bibles. We don’t tie the long lives of some cigar smokers to their smoking. Nor should we be quick to claim that an occurrence of escaped mishap or good fortune can be attributed mainly to our rule observance or goodness.
2This quote and other details from the story are taken from the Adventist Review website. See https://www.adventistworld.org/2014/october/news-feature.html
3See https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-crash-everything-we-know.html
4https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
5https://psychology.about.com/od/cognitivepsychology/fl/What-Is-a-Confirmation-Bias.htm
First class article. The only down side might be for those who write for the Adventist Review and some of the union papers. Just think of the number of additional stories they would have to write that did not have a lot of “miracle” stories included to “build faith” in the AR readers.
So are you judging those who write for AR? Are they all liars? I don’t think anyone is in a position to judge another’s religious or faith experience. When you are in a position to hear, see, or experience so-called “supernatural” you won’t have a leg to stand on. They can be positive or negative, and there is no explanation.
As for the above story we don’t have answers. I once remember hearing a man at a dinner express thankfulness he survived an earthquake. A fearful person, it no doubt gave him faith in God’s protection. Another guest–a jerk–jumped on him verbally for thinking he was special when others died. I could feel his embarrassment and being judged.
I personally believe for God’s people (those who have not rejected him), there are no coincidences. For those who have rejected Him, there is no protection from evil happenings.
For God’s people, death is temporary outside of time, and is not the worse thing that could happen. However, being human most fear it.
Jesus seems to suggest that demanding a miracle, in and of itself, is the sign of an “evil generation.” I remember discussions in Latin America regarding the fate (to saint or not to saint) certain individuals who through the years had gained reputations as great spiritual leaders of the Catholic Church. When all was said and done, the decision hinged on whether or not there was a bona fide “sign” to validate the canonization of each candidate. Perhaps it’s just human nature to demand authentication by miracle, and God at times concedes to human weakness of faith. Many of the miracles oft quoted to me as a child from the life of Ellen G. White are no longer seen as totally factual…..Yet, that does not alter my appreciation for the Little Lady, one whit…..
The author is right on! I attended a Columbia Union constituency meeting in 1978 when two lines (pro and con on the issue at hand) of constituency delegates lined up with the EG White red books from which they quoted to prove the disparate points of view. The final vote out of over 300 carried by 17 votes if memory serves. I wonder how the ‘losers’
felt that night as they journeyed home?
Today I read a quotation from Ellen White written at the turn of the 20th century to the effect that if the church had followed God’s leading more carefully, “we would have been in the kingdom ‘ere this”. Had we so followed God’s leading however, I wouldn’t exist and more importantly for me and my wife, our gorgeous great-grandchildren (some of the world’s finest) wouldn’t be here to follow Jesus.
These types of articles are for the readers of the Review who love to hear stories of the beliefs being confirmed. If all the church’s leaders believed that flying on Sabbath was wrong, there would be far less visits to the far flung world or Adventists.
Elaine,
So what do you do when you hear, read, or personally experience (if you would) a totally unexpected and unexplainable coincidence? I suppose you deny it! There are far more out there than you can imagine, and you have no right to judge another’s experience.
Do you believe every personal story one relates?
Just because the teller believes it does not make it so.
If she believed it, that was the story that the Review printed in order to reinforce both Sabbath observance and listening to the Spirit.
But the big question: why did she, alone, receive that message? Because she was a Sabbath keeper? What was the intent of the story the Review chose to publish? Was it not to emphasize, once again, how Sabbath should be observed? What about all those SdA leaders who must fly on Sabbath?
Personal testimony about our experience with the power of God is the most potent evangelistic tool we have. It is many times more powerful than any preaching because it is confronts us with the intimate reality and power of a loving God. It is easy to dismiss preaching as theory and not-applicable, but testimony reminds us that God is real and actually does what He promised.
To those who debate about what to do or not do on the Sabbath, I suggest reading about the number of miracles Jesus performed on the Sabbath. It perhaps was his busiest day of the week. I wish more of us would follow His example of engagement with the world and His focus on doing good things on the Sabbath instead of withdrawing from the world and hibernating.
Elaine:
Just for the record, the stories appearing about missions are thoroughly checked out before use.
W. Zork,
I have never taken this quote seriously and feel it is unbiblical. (It sounds like we can manipulate God.)
Though I believe EGW had inspired visions, I don’t think every word or opinion she said was divinely-inspired, and this is one of them. One Bible text tells us that the delay is so that more may be saved. Christ also said He did not know the date, but only His Father in heaven. I cringe when I hear this quote!
I find this logic curious. It is is true, then taken to its logical conclusion would mean God will never come. This would allow for many more generations of people to be born and saved. But I never hear anyone making that extrapolation.
I have equal problem with using the words of Jesus that He did not know when He was returning. Again we infer that just because He did not know the day He said those words that somehow He will never know. I suppose we assume that He still doesn’t know and is waiting for His Father (who evidently is withholding that secret from His all-knowing divine Son) to suddenly tell Him a moment before He is supposed to leave heaven. Again, not something I ever hear anyone talking about. There needs to be a broader view of looking at statements from both prophets and Scripture (or is this forum not in favor of viewing Ellen as a prophet anymore. I don’t know)
Your concerns, in my opinion, aren’t relevant to our life. We should always be ready for Christ to come
Our church cofounder didn’t want to be called a prophet, but a messenger. She was not one to seek celebrity status or anyone special, she was a humble messenger.
We don’t necessarily use stand-alone “statements” as truth, because we also need to know the context. This is always a problem with statements. The Bible is to be taken as a whole and not cut up into statements to prove something we already believe. The Word speaks to us of Jesus if we follow the theme throughout the Bible.
Why not me? Why doeesn’t God speak to me that way? Those were my firrst thoughts as I read this story, and they were discouraging. I’m certain the AR writers meant well, however the full implication of telling such stories didn’t occur to them. we can always learn from unfortunate things like this, if we will.
The God I love and serve treats us all the same. I see this story as a fortunate coincidence, not evidence that God favored one of His children over 100+ others. To claim otherwise is to inadvertently show conceit, in my opinion. “God needed me more than He needed you…” No!
In one case the ax head floated to the surface. In another, Jesus’ cousin lost his head. Can we then conclude that the tool was of more value than the life?
Let’s be careful when we claim to understand events – be they apparently random or not. Walk with Him and be grateful. Rejoice with those that are rejoicing and cry with those that are weeping. WWJD.
i seriously doubt we can second guess such decisions made are the determining factor of life or death. Possibly making a change of flight might put you on the plane to be lost. Superstition could make you a nervous wreck, do I fly, or don’t?? perhaps then one in in a fatal automobile accident. After several years in the Air Force, and several hazardous flight problems, and scary events, I don’t recall ever one of
our crew mentioning fear of the next flight.
We are told (sorry, EGW again) that we should always remember and recall the times when God has intervened in our lives and rescued us or protected us. We are never to avoid an opportunity to give a testimony about our own experiences with God in our lives. In fact, our own experiences are the only thing that no one else can object to because it is our own, and not theirs–until now, in this article!
Everything in my life is not perfect; some things do not go the way I would prefer. But life would be boring if they did. I know that God knows and does best for everyone, even sometimes for those who are not following Him. It is not my responsibility to worry about whether someone else is more or less blessed than I am. I trust God to do what is right.
As for traveling on the Sabbath, I have done so due to circumstances and probably will need to again. I have no guilt. I do what I have to do to be where He wants me to be. If a plane crashes on Sabbath and I am on it, that is not my punishment, it is His will because I am there at His direction. So be it.
Dare one mention Eccles 9.11 (or thereabouts) “…. time and chance overtake them all.”? or:
“ALL things (good bad or indifferent) work together for good….”
Mark,
You have illustrated well the problems and misconceptions that get promoted when we go beyond the simple facts of a testimony and speculate about the implications. A testimony is simply “God, in His great love, did this for me so that I would be drawn closer to Him.” But trying to explain the larger circumstances God used is playing God while forgetting that He doesn’t see things the same way we do.
Testimonies inspire us to aspire to greater life in the love and power of God. We have a dearth of real testimony in the church, and as a result a dearth of God’s power in the church, because of how seldom people are allowed the opportunity to share about what God has done for them. Many times we would receive a far greater blessing from attending church if the preacher shut-up and the members spoke-up!
William:
I agree completely, but it is actually very difficult to implement a testimonial period at church. Having tried, the only members that speak up regularly are those in need of something and the testimonial time is converted into a series of prayer requests. “Not that there is anything wrong with that…”
It sounds like we both know the challenge of keeping testimonies focused on celebrating the greatness of God and his specific blessings to us. The root problem I see is that we’ve become so spiritually weakened as a church that few people even have anything in their experience with God that they want to celebrate and share with the church. Complicating that is the church typically discouraging any such sharing. How are we to break that mold if we stay focused on preaching spiritual theory without allowing the confirmation of spiritual themes that testimony provides and helps us want to connect with God more deeply?
To give a testimony about our experience with God being active in our lives requires that we admit our vulnerability and our inability to provide for all that we need and want. Most SDA members are not interested in sharing to that extent, especially in the larger churches. We need to abandon the facade that we maintain and let everyone know who we really are. But before we can do that, the church must remove all obstacles to sharing, including removing all judgments and criticisms of whatever we might have stupidly or arrogantly done to have created the situation(s) in which we were so happy to have been rescued by a loving and forgiving God. I don’t know if that environment will ever exist.
You wrote: “To give a testimony about our experience with God being active in our lives requires that we admit our vulnerability and our inability to provide for all that we need and want.”
That touches on several levels. At the most basic level you are absolutely correct and it is at that level where most testimony focuses. But there are plenty of other times when God is giving us some instruction and sometimes when He is doing something just because He knows it will make us happy. God does things for me on all those levels. Sometimes I need a particular tool or material for one of my ministry projects and don’t have it, then I get to celebrate how God provided it. There have been times when He has used what to me were practical jokes to remind me that I really should be trusting Him more and other times He gave me something where he just wanted me to go and have some fun because it refreshed my spirit. It all wraps-up into a relationship with a stream of events and Divine actions that make me want to celebrate His greatness.
How can anyone know for certainty when their angel or God intervened? Many of us have escaped danger in many ways, but to attribute it to God’s intervention does not account for stupidity or recklessness of someone. To believe that God is constantly intervening would lead to our carelessness, counting on Him to save us from all sorts of endeavors. Is that the God we should be worshiping?
You asked: “How can anyone know for certainty when their angel or God intervened?” That is the beauty of an intimate, empowered relationship with God. You may not know exactly how God did it, but you can be absolutely certain that He has done something for you.
Elaine:
I feel sorry for you that you cannot see the Spirit of God working in your life. Jesus said we cannot see the wind but we can see the trees moving and we can hear the sound of the leaves rustling. I have had many experiences where ONLY God could have done what was done. You should pray specifically for that experience and then stand back and watch what He does.
How would I, or anyone know that the Spirit “moved” unless he first believed in the Spirit? Some believe, like the woman in the story, who was sure it was the spirit; while someone in the same situation might say “I was very lucky.”
Just a there are some who believe that the Devil is behind all things that are seen as hurtful, one sees or experiences what he was taught. This seems to be the theory of many Christians: God is the author of all good; and the devil is the author of all evil: evil being everything from natural disasters like hurricanes to disease and sickness.
But that raises another question: if God is in charge of the Good, why doesn’t He get rid of the Devil who causes all the evil. Was the flood evil for destroying most of the world? Who sent that evil?
This is no different than the excuse someone gives for committing a crime: “The Devil made me do it.
If one doesn’t believe, all they have is fate, chance, and luck (note the first three letters of luck are the same as Lucifer). I personally do not believe in luck or coincidence. Everything that happens to me in my life is the work of God. Things that happen may be the consequences of my own actions (like getting on an airplane) but the end result is due to whether God allowed or didn’t allow the natural consequences to occur (the plane crashed or didn’t). Many times I am allowed to reap what I sow (good and bad) and that’s OK. I don’t always like what happens and sometimes I wish God had intervened differently, but I don’t worry about the final result because nothing can happen to me that He does not allow.
It all begins with letting God give you reason to believe.
While we are free to judge others for sharing their testimony and insist that we should always make our story politically unoffensive to anyone who might have had a different experience, I don’t believe it is in harmony with the teachings of Scripture or Ellen White. As some have pointed out here, we need to be sharing our own stories more, not shaming those who do. No wonder few people are willing to say anything publicly, if they were analyzed like this lady’s story.
I almost get the sense from this article and the sympathetic comments that people should not put any stock in expecting to hear impressions from God about daily matters. Yet this is the opposite direction from what I have been seeking to move in coming closer to God. I want to hear more from Him, not less. And in recent years I believe I have heard much more from Him, whether others happen to agree with that or not. And when I share what I believe are impressions or insights from the Holy Spirit I should be able to share them with others without having to constantly worry about what they might think about me or if they will be offended because they don’t believe what I am saying.
Just because a person believes they are listening to the voice of God directly in their lives (a biblical truth by the way encouraged for those serious about wanting to follow God) does not make their impressions infallible or even applicable to everyone else. But it may still be the voice of God to that person.
I have been on both sides of this issue. When I was very young growing up in a strict Adventist home, I sneaked out to the front porch one Sabbath morning while waiting to go to church and disobeyed my parents who had a rule that I was not to ride my tricycle on Sabbaths. When I sat down on the seat the trike broke in half instantly dropping my butt on the hard cement and jolting my conscience into a strong opinion about Sabbath-keeping that stayed with me for many years until I later began to challenge my legalistic views of God. So it is true that our conclusions about events can be mistaken. But it can also be true that God meets us where we are which may contradict where He is meeting someone else at that point in their life. But this does not mean we should discourage sharing stories, for stories form the identity we share communally and we find encouragement and hope in other peoples stories, just as we sometimes also have opportunity to take offense from their stories if we are so inclined.
I agree with FP on this one. Although our impressions are not infallible (some can be based on superstition, so we use the Word to test them, or we can see through a superstition), I do believe God speaks to us through experiences. I do know that He answers prayers.
An example: a friend of mine suffered severe depression for about five years on all sorts of medication. One day in prayer she found herself totally healed and free of depression and has been the many years since. I know I was with her through this experience. She no longer takes medication. Why did God wait to heal her? Why doesn’t He heal other good Christian people with depression who may seem like they could give more if well? I don’t know, but this was no coincidence.
I think that tricycle image is going to stay with me for a while!
What was it that caused people to seek-out Jesus or the Disciples? It was the reports they heard about the miracles they performed. In other words, it was the testimony they heard from people who had an encounter with the power of God. The gospel would spread with far greater power today if people were encouraged and permitted to testify about their encounters with the power of God instead of being stultified and stupified with sermons that drown us in spiritual theory!
Perhaps one reason that there are fewer and fewer “testimony sessions” in Adventist churches in the first world is that some parts of the church have matured in their understanding of how God interacts with the physical world which includes all of us.
There are many types of miracles and ways in which God works in this world. Many in this discussion seem to disbelieve that God interacts in the physical world. Others say explicitly that He does. I believe that I have a mature relationship with God, probably not as strong as He had with David or Paul, and I cannot say I have seen a mountain move, but I have seen people change their minds when they were adamant in their previous opinions only moments before, and I have seen many physical occurrences for which there can be no other explanation. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and many are too sophisticated in their understanding to see what happens before their own eyes.
Can the devil react in the physical world? Is he in charge of sickness and disease? Is that also spiritually discerned?
The question of theodicy is the oldest, unanswered question.
When I was a kid, I loved _Uncle Arthur’s Bedtime Stories_, which was full of miracle stories like this. But as I grew older, I saw that many, if not most, stories did not end so well. I had to re-think how Bod works in our lives, or lose my faith. I believe He rarely intervenes in the natural course of our lives. He is there to comfort and give strength in our sorrows and to rejoice with us when things turn out to our good. And He uses our trials to help us learn lessons that are needed, but doesn’t bring them to us.If God answered all our prayers the way we want Him to, we would serve Him for what we can get out of Him.
There is one important factor that the above writer did not include in his article. I think a lot of us need to consider what underlying principle is involved in an event and our interpretation of the event. In this case we could ask what does this event say about God? Using the Review’s article I would be hesitant to say that it says anything good about God. After all a little divine intervention to send the missile a wee bit off course or to whisper into the operator don’t fire on the commercial aircraft would make so much more sense. I look at these stories as attempts to realize that God leaves mankind to their natural consequences while still trying to intimate that to the sacred few God directs them…but only when the outcome is good! Not too sure I can buy that.
Any SdA pastors out there who cover 2 churches for preaching on a Sabbath, say 30 miles apart to preach at 9:30AM and 11:00AM, leave their gas tank empty leaving their parsonage 20 miles from the nearest church, and expect a gas pump from Orion to not run out of gas?
I had four churches in a district stretching over 70 miles from end to end, with members homes even further. I always filled the tank on Friday afternoon but events and obligations on Sabbath, beginning at 7am until as late as midnight sometimes required refilling the tank on Sabbath afternoon. I did not hesitate to insert my ATM card at the pump and I have no guilt. I did not expect a Sabbath miracle to keep me from running out of gas. That could be fatal on some of those lonely roads in the middle of winter. I trust God, but He trusts me not to be that stupid.
Sometimes we need to get the ox out of the ditch and ride it to where God wants us to be. Now I live in a city with good public transportation, but I have to pay to use it. Should I walk to wherever I need to be on Sabbath and avoid paying someone to take me there on the subway? Don’t be ridiculous with the cynicism about Sabbath observance.
I agree with you guys. There are a number of concepts about how to “keep the Sabbath holy” that need revisited for a reality check.
If you’ll look back a few issues of AToday magazine you’ll find an article I wrote on the topic that challenges some long-held concepts about what is and is not “permissible” to do on the Sabbath. The events of that Sabbath afternoon described in the story stand as one of the Sabbaths I remember for the greatness of the blessings I saw God shower that day.
Hi Richard. I am a member of one of those 4 churches that he is speaking of folks and believe me when I say that this man is an asset to the faith and wherever he works for the Lord that he is doing exactly that. I praise God that I saw this article and noticed my friend Richard’s responses. It’s great to know you are doing well wherever you may be now. You do get around. God be with you Richard and if we do not get to see each other here again then I certainly hope to meet you in heaven brother.
While it is proper and helpful to tell others what God has done for us, we might be even more helpful in sharing the gospel by telling unbelievers what God has done for them. A self centered witness may not impress an unbeliever, and only cause them to think, “Well, that’s all right for you, but what has God done for me?”
So the gospel is the good news of what God has done for the unbeliever and the whole world. People may be won to Christ by explaining what God has done for them more than a self centered witness that gives no hope for an unbeliever.
I think our challenge with the Sabbath is getting hung-up on listing what we cannot or should not do on the Sabbath versus all the good things we could and should be doing. Read the accounts in scripture of the miracles Jesus did and see how many of them He did on the Sabbath. Then look at how many good things any of us do for anyone but ourselves on that day. We think we’re honoring God when we ought to be ashamed!
Bill:
I can’t believe you said that! The essence of telling someone what God has done for me is that it is not preaching. Now you want to turn 180 degrees suggest that I preach a sermon on what God has done for the listener! That is the type of preaching that we have been doing and people walk away because they don’t believe it is personal to them. When you hear a story of what actually happened to someone else, you can identify with that person and picture yourself in that same situation.
Richard:
Please go back and read the section “If it worked for me. . . .” If I use the Kenyan tragedy to picture myself in the same situation, I’ll be afraid to go to church on Sabbath. Assuming that her Sabbathkeeping gave her a one-up on the other passengers is still working with a sample of one and reasoning “after this, therefore because of this.”
Mark:
I understand your hypothesis quite well. I just disagree with your conclusion. When someone is blessed (protected, saved from disaster, whatever) and I am not blessed proportionally, I do not decide to hate God for my situation. I have had to live through many difficult circumstances, and I am not going to list them all here, but God has always provided for my needs. The Bible has many stories about people who were rescued and many others who were not. But we are given the complete story so that we can know that the final outcome was for the good. Joseph ended up well. John the Baptist not so well. But we are given enough information to teach us to trust God, even if we lose our freedom, and our heads. Atheists and those who do not want to believe use disasters and apparent unfairness to criticize God or say that He doesn’t even exist. Those of us who are more spiritually mature should not ask those questions. In my ministry, I have found that the stories of how God helped others in similar circumstances are an encouragement to people who are struggling currently.
I can’t win this argument because for every story I tell about someone who was protected, you have another one about someone who apparently wasn’t (yet).
Mark, Good logical answer to subjectivity.
I think I understand what he meant by his statement. Here is my example of understanding.
Back in February I left my hospital job at 1900 and noticed my older female boss leaving also. I hardly ever see her, maybe 3 times a month at best. Our relationship is one that if I see her name on the phone calling I would rather not answer it. I have pushed her to act with integrity to the point of yelling and she has pushed right back to the point of discipline to shut me up.
So I waved good-bye and walked down a different hallway. In another hallway we again passed each other going different directions and I again said good-bye. I got into an elevator and walked across a sky-bridge to our Cancer Center and into another elevator to get to the parking garage. In that elevator guess who was there? So I thought to myself that this is highly unusual and we began to talk.
In that short time she expressed to me how scared she is to walk to her car in the dark and that in the past she has called security to walk her out. I walked with her and we both said good-bye again.
The next morning I e-mailed her what the Lord had impressed me to say. Just to say something to her was remarkable but I was not going to back down just because she was God’s target.
I told her in so many words that last night was not some random coincidence. I said God loves you so much that he knew you were scared, even if you did not ask/tell Him, He still met your need. I was there to walk you out and it was my pleasure.
She replied by telling me that I made her day. That is quite something as neither one of us is fond of the other.
That is what I believe Bill meant in his statement, something to that effect.
This brings to mind another topic which I have never formally heard in an SDA setting. That is the fact that God honors even those who do not honor Him. The bible is full of such endorsements.
I like your vision here, Bill.
We are better to testify of what we believe God has done for the person we are speaking with, than just what we believe God has done for us.
And in a reality, it is not what God has done for us as much as what God has promised on our behalf.
The Gospel is that God created and loves this world and sent Jesus to confirm that we will not perish but that we will have eternal life.
So our testimony is: Mark, I believe you will live forever because Jesus Christ confirms that God’s love is eternal for you and for me.
Anything less is not attractive, like: Mark, you could live forever. I would enjoy studying the bible with you and explain how you can live forever. When would be a good time for you?
If Jesus is lifted up, will He draw all to him? Or is it better lift ourselves up? I really like your preference for lifting up Jesus!
Who is this God that saves one yet allows 100+ to die. What about the bus load of SDA’s in Kenya on their way to church who were slaughtered by Muslims? Why did He save the lady but not them?
The Kenyan story is not complete. Perhaps all 100+ will be in heaven. Is that such a bad outcome? Perhaps some might not have been saved if they had lived longer. You question a God that knows everything based on your thimble full of wisdom.
How many times have we heard that similar comment:
“So sorry that your little girl died, but you will see her one day again.” They may not be as sure as your are and it’s small comfort at such a time.
Small comfort to most grieving families. How can one be so certain of that eventuality? I never comment in that way, only, “I am so sorry for your loss, she was irreplaceable.”
In my opinion you see only in human terms. If we embrace our biblical doctrines through Jesus and His act for our salvation, being outside of time, these folk in their time frame may be seeing Christ coming for them already. These tragedies cause distress for the living, yes, but their death is only temporary.
But this is very difficult for us to feel good about because of our worldly dimension in which we live and are trapped by because we cannot imagine it. It seemed easier for the ancients to accept dying perhaps because of their beliefs and no one to tell them otherwise.
I’m peering from the deck of my vacation villa in Cancun overlooking the beach where visitors romp in the water and stroll on the sand and who would be swept to their instant deaths if a tsunami swept in and engulfed them. They would be gone forever. There is no evidence of a universal registery to account or track them. Human life seems not to have special favor in the churn of the physical universe.
Why is it we humans, otherwise, are the most favored of all universal structures (as best we can ascertain). Our compostion of at least a billion cells (it is said that one human cell has more components than a jet airliner) are only minature amusement parks for the tens of billions of microorganisms where mind-boggling processes of chemical, electrical and other symbiotic activities ongo (check with experts such as Dr Hohen, other docs and scientist for verificaion!) that make us us.
My point? Why are we so awesome but without an obvious purpose? That’s, I think, the uncounscious basis, or at least normally undefined, presupposition for the search for meaning. And the incubator of our quest for our answer to the question of what does it all mean?
And that is exactly what Mark Gutman is addressing here, I think. All we have is our ablity to think and interpret and hope. We are in charge of creating our own meaning.
As a thirteen year old boy I rounded a corner of home and watched a train smash into a car my mother, brother, sister, aunt and uncle had just driven off in. I thought they were still in it. They got out just time. God delivered them in my mind. As a pastor in Kansas a day of prayer brought rain to end a drought.
Contradictory anecdotal evidence is “the downside,” the minority report, of faith. It is nourishemnt for skepticism, (and grist for debate) but all things considered, well fed hope in the face of our reality trumps contridiction. We live by myth, religion provides the language for it and is the repository for the cherished mental images it creates.
No one has an inside track on the meaning of life, drat, not even me! We are awesome creatures with a unique power to see ourselves, but beyond, we are collective blindmen groping the elephant.
My reportage of my grope of the elephant has earned me a recent scolding. But I am here to report that I am a fellow traveler on the common journey for what this all means. I value each individuals experience, have no interest in harming anyone. As Mark Gutman recounts in this article deliverience from tragedy is percieved as personal intervention of God. In my view, that is not to be tampered with.
Not to worry about those tsunamm threatened folk below my balcony. Each probably has some belief, myth, they live by that would deliver them (not happily, nor maybe hoplessly) into that dark night.
When we try to analyze the inscrutable look what we come up with. I believe the lady was correct in her conviction not to be on a commercial flight on Sabbath. Too often Sabbath has been made a day, by some, to engage in a secular activity that could be done on another day under the guise of “doing good.”
Why is Sunday not a good day to rake the widow’s lawn? Oh, that’s a day for my pleasure. In fact I’d miss watching that football game on TV if I were doing good on Sunday!!
Remember the Sabbath day… She remembered the Sabbath day and her life was preserved.Maybe more of us should follow her example.
Maranatha
Speak for yourself and not suggest what others should do.
This is a funny statement. It made me laugh because I have come to expect better retorts from Elaine’s posts.
Seventh Day Adventists, Protestants, Methodists, Catholics, Muslims, etc. All are man-made institutions. All seek their own agenda. All promote themselves. All seek to be glorified. So what is the lesson and conclusion of this article? For me, I see only the glorification of the Seventh Day Adventist church. Are not all who call themselves by any religious denomination missing the mark and do not know the Son of God? How can anyone say they belong to Jesus Christ and yet call themselves by another name? Those who belong to Christ Jesus seek to do His will and glorify Him and God the Father. They will not uphold any other name above the name of Jesus Christ. People may think they are hearing the Voice of the Spirit but that is only confirmed when it glorifies Jesus Christ, the Son of God. “12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:12-15) The Spirit Glorifies the Son of God and only Him. He does not glorify man or any created thing. Make no mistake, only those who are transformed into His likeness will see and be with Him for eternity. There will be no Seventh Day Adventists, Protestants, Muslims, or mankind as we now know it in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Eternity belongs to Jesus Christ, God the Father, His Holy Angels and the Children of God. They are all Spirit Beings and there is no need for a physical world. The physical world has served its purpose, that is, God’s purpose. “2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” (John 14:2-4)
This is your opinion, Daniel, and it is also “man-made.” As your convicition for yourself, this is a fine homily, but it isn’t a perscription for me. (See Elaine’s comment above). Compiling the Scripture has no effect as they are resident in my copy of the Bible and are eligble as pull-quotes for a thousand opinions.
“Eligible as pull-quotes for a thousand opinions”; that is true.
So do you group, in the same category as myself, those who say Jesus is Michael the Archangel before and after His coming in the flesh?
And what about those who say the earth and the heavens will be RE-NEWED rather than consumed by fire:
“10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.” (2 Pet.3:10-13)?
“1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.” (Rev.21:1)
I am sure you know those who are making such claims which I mentioned above? I try not to make personal attacks, but false and deceptive doctrines I will strongly refute. But of course, that is my opinion?
This sounded good until I got to the term “spirit beings” which doesn’t appear in the Bible, and I am at a loss to know what you mean by it. Flesh (as we now know it) may not enter the Kingdom because it is associated with things of the flesh (selfish desires). However, God seemed to feel the physical things He made were “very good.” It would appear that “glorified bodies” are also physical and touchable as Jesus showed in His post-resurrection.
The Body Jesus had at His resurrection was indeed His physical body, a testimony and witness to us that He was victorious over sin and death in the flesh, which we now partake of through His reign in our hearts. But what happened to His body during His ascension to God the Father, Who is Spirit, is only understood when one looks into the Sacrificial Laws, which is a shadow of the Heavenly.
Another example is when Elijah offered a sacrifice to God, which was consumed by the Fire of God.
When Paul wrote about the “flesh and blood” having no part in the Kingdom of God in 1 Cor.15:50, he was not referring to the sinful nature of man but rather the physical realm; which is not sinful in itself. The earth and most things in it have in some way been corrupted/polluted by sin, but that is not attributed to the flesh/physical world of itself, but rather the spirits and souls of man.
However, Paul does refer to the “body of sin” in other places, which I understand to mean his/our whole sinful nature: “O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?” (Rom.7:24)
In Romans 8:5-14 we see that the “carnal mind” is referred to the “flesh”. But living by the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the flesh (sinful nature); Verse 9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”. So our bodies and the Body of Christ is here referred to as a Spiritual whole/being and not a physical body.
In 1 Cor.15:44 we see this very process, “It is sown a NATURAL body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body and there is a SPIRITUAL body”.
There are many references to “the body of the sins of the flesh” and also to “putting on Christ”, so that our lowly body is conformed to His glorious body. I could continue with my explanation but I would only be re-writing what has already been written.
We also see in Rev.20:11-15 that there will be no physical universe at the time of the Great Judgement, only the souls of everyone who has ever lived standing before God. One may ask: “but what about the books, how can books exist in a non-physical realm?” The books here refer to RECORDS. Our minds have recorded everything we have ever done, thus we are each judged according to our works (verse 13). But there is also the Lamb’s Book of Life. Therefore He has said, “27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (John 10”27-30).
Again, there are numerous accounts referring to the Spiritual Kingdom of God throughout the Bible, it would take me days to point them out. So I trust I have given you some insight into my understanding on the subject.
In reply to FP above: “that Jesus did not know when He was returning”.
In 1 Cor.2:6-16 Paul writes concerning spiritual wisdom and mysteries of God. God reveals them to all who have His Spirit. Verse 10: “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit SEARCHES ALL THINGS, yes, the DEEP THINGS OF GOD.” Verse 16: “For ‘Who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?’ But we have the mind of Christ”.
If we are joined to Christ through His Spirit, then the Spirit would SEARCH out also the day in which He was to return, if He knew. Although Jesus is with God the Father and they are One, of the day when His Son should return only His Father will determine. But that is not to say we cannot know how close that day is, because Jesus warns us to be ready each day, as EM pointed out.
testing
Mark Gutman wrote
She may indeed have been spared because she had a work to do but “it appears that some of the world’s leading AIDS researchers lost their lives. The Australian reported that 108 of of the passengers were researchers and their families, who were en route to the 20th International AIDS Conference in Melbourne.”3 Would we be justified in concluding that either their work was not as important or that their particular role was no longer important? Is it a given that nobody else on the plane had more work to do?
Mark, it is my firm belief that God wanted to spare the lives of all the passengers on the doomed aircraft, for God doesn’t want anyone to die. The problem is that most people don’t listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit – why? because it is usually that unwelcome voice that “steps on our toes” and makes us feel uncomfortable. As a result His voice becomes dimmer and dimmer until we hardly hear it at all- we tune Him out. I truly believe that the holy Spirit was trying to warn all the people not to fly but unfortunately they chose to not listen or they could not hear Him!! Think what you like but we can never blame God for this.
The question that needs to be asked is: ‘why are we here’.
The answer is we are here to know God and worship Him. Anything other than this is meaningless (eccl 12:8,13).
Death should not be a tragedy if you are prepared for it and know the Truth. It becomes a tragedy when you thing this is all there is and God is 2nd in your agenda.
They are dead, now they will face their reward accordingly. Death is a gain could say Paul when you live expecting it anytime. However death is a tragedy when you think you will never die. Making money and having ‘fun’ is not the purpose of mankind. Be prepare to meet Jesus, you are next.