The Apostle John: Antichrist and Antichrists
by Monte Sahlin
by Borge Schantz, May 1, 2014
The apostle John in his epistles is the only Bible writer who uses the words antichrist and antichristians. In 1 John 2:18, 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7 he reveals that in the end time antichrist and antichristans will appear. These texts make it clear that (1) there will not only be one Antichrist, but many antichrists; (2) their presence is a warnings about the end of time; (3) they reject the Trinity as they do not accept the Father/Son relationship; and (4) they do not recognize the incarnation. In other words, the only information we get from John about the antichrist and the many antichrists, is that Jesus is not recognized as part of the Godhead.
The Great Antichrist
The expression antichrist has, through the Bible commentaries, interpreters and preachers of various Christian traditions, become a common title used for all forces, religious or secular, who in a visible often violent way go against the Word of God, the plan of God or the people of God. The Protestant reformers in the late Middle Ages as they studied prophecies in both the Old and New Testament, found passages that pointed directly to the abuses of the papacy, and aptly applied the term The Great Antichrist to the institution. The reformers had no major problems with interpreting the medieval history of Rome as a fulfillment of prophecy.
The most notable Bible descriptions of the Great Antichrist included (1) it will speak against the Most High, Daniel 7:25; (2) it will oppress the saints, Daniel 7:25; (3) it will change times and laws, Daniel 7:25; (4) it will speak blasphemous words against God and His people, Revelation 13:5-6; and (5) it will exercise power over tribes, tongues, peoples, Revelation 13:7. The Reformers also found Bible texts that defined a time frame for the dominance of the papal institution in Christendom; 1,260 years (usually understood to be from 538 to 1798) was the time prophecy for the Antichristian based on Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 11:2, 12:14, 13:5.
Seventh-day Adventists in their seminal Bible studies after the 1844 Great Disappointment, found in the prophecies important references to the end of history. They predicted, based on prophecies in Revelation, that the papacy in alliance with a major political power in the New World and apostate Christian churches would resume the political dominance that it once had. The historic disregard for the authority of God and the oppression of the true followers of Jesus, which existed for 1,260 years, would be repeated. The papal institution with its allies would resume oppressive power. In this move the Sabbath/Sunday question among other things would become an important factor.
Other Antichristian Powers
The western Christian world is for the present reasonably undisturbed in terms of religious freedom. Wars among nations did, unfortunately, not stop in 1798. Napoleon, however, did dis-establish the political power of the papal institution. A a period of religious tolerance had its beginnings. It will, however, according to prophecy come to an end with the predicted future religious/political alliances. For the present we experience no significant limitations on religious freedom in the West and much of the rest of the world. It is an era with the opportunity to proclaim "the everlasting gospel to all kinds of people" in many places.
However, in the present Christian practice of tolerance and peacefull coexistence among denominations, another problem has arisen. In the recent decades adherents of Islam, a monotheistic, non-Christian world religion, have for various reasons in considerable numbers immigrated to Western countries. And here they gradually become more visible and change in the established religious patterns.
Muslims Among Christians
Most of the Muslims in the West immigrated from Islamic kingsdoms and republics, often due to oppression they encountered. They found a haven in societies where hospitality is part of a culture largely shaped by Christian values. However, some Muslim Fundamentalists have behaved in ways that seem to suggest the abusive antichristian regime from the Middle Ages. Observations of the lifestyle and activties of some Muslim immigrants brings to memory the abuses of the papacy hundred of years ago. A relatively high percentage of Muslims in the West are attempting to live a life dictated by the Koran and Sharia law. Some are also trying indirectly to impose their religous laws, culture and lifestyle on their new context.
These efforts have gradually become key themes in the secular news media. They include Islamic control of speech, dress, diet, holidays in schools and neighborhoods, rules on marriage/divorce and inheritance, early marriages, oppression of young women, etc. Negotiations on these controversial relationships have, on occasion, led to threats, terror tactices and even violence in the name of Allah. A small number have even joined terrorist groups.
It must be clearly stated that most Muslims living in Western countries are good citizens who wish to make a contribution to a free society. Some appreciate the liberty of Western culture and want to practice their faith privately, within their families. But an aggressive minority of Islamists feel that their religion allows them to use severe threats and punishments on fellow believers in their own ranks who do not follow the strict ways of Shari’ah.
At the same we in the West hear what is going on in the Muslim world. The presence of missionaries and proclamation of the Gospel is forbidden in areas with a billion Muslims where Islam is the absolute and autocratic religion. There are reports from Muslim countries where a minority of Christians are treated as second class citizens and exposed to increasing persecution and sometimes even murder. Churches are raided and burned down. One tragic result of these atrocities is that the few confessing Christians living in a number of Muslim kingdoms and republics are immigrating to safer countries.
To these persecutions of Christians must be added that many types of Islamic belief allow Muslims to commit brutal attacks on other muslims belonging to other Islamic sects. All these incidents reveal a religious power that speaks against the highest, oppresses and enslaves Christians, changes times and laws, and seeks to have dominion over tribes and peoples.
Islam: Congenial Monotheistic Religion
The Koran has several, although usually very distorted, references to stories and personalities also found in the Bible, from Adam to Christ. The Koran and Hadiths (traditions) quote biblical prophets by their names. In theory, Islamic literature places Jesus in line with Abraham and Moses and he is regarded as a great religious leader and prophet, even compared with Muhammad. But Christ is not recognized as the Son of God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is labeled polytheism.
The interesting point in this connection is that not only does the apostle John in his epistles use the term antichrist and antichristian , he also outined the definition of antichrist as a religious power that does not accept the Father/Son relationship. In the course of history, Christians have been able to identify apostate Christian churches, secular governments as well as clerical orders and dictatorial leaders as antichrists. Adventists have to some extent and rightfully identified the papacy as the Great Antichrist. Does the apostle John suggest that Fundamentalist Islam could be added to the list of antichristian powers?
As a world movement Adventists have members and congregations in Muslim areas where there is oppression and even persecution of Christians. They often have Catholic neighbors who also are persecuted. Many of these unfortunate regions are places where Catholic influence is, if not completely absent, very minimal. For these isolated, vulnerable and often persecuted Christians, the Bible's words confirming that their persecutors are antichristian powers could be a sign that God has not forgotten them.
In their Bible study these persecuted Christians find comfort in the rewards they are promised after the final tribulations under an antichrist powers. They will experience the ultimate victory. The words of Revelation 7:14-17 expresses their consolation.
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,“they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Response to Comments by the Author
Dr. Schantz wrote this May 9 in response to the comments posted below:
John the apostle no doubt had the proto-Gnostics in mind when he, as the only Bible writer, coined the title Antichrist. Writers in the first century later gave Nero the title. It has since been applied by reformators, theologians, church leaders and others to any power that "will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws" (Dan 7:25). Personally I have even heard Germans after WWII call Hitler an antichrist. And Russians in 1953 after the death of Stalin gave him the same title.
The hostile actions of extreme fundamentalist Muslims in the world, remind us of the history of the papacy in the Middle Ages. And we have been keen to be reminders of the facts about the papacy. If some Catholic group today were to be guilty of just a fraction of the terrorist acts performed in the name of Islam, it would get the front covers of the newspapers and Adventist magazines in the West. My experience, however, is that the Opinion article would not have been published in a European Adventist magazine. The official reason for refusing to publish the article could be that the content would make matters worse for the few Adventists living in the Muslim world. That is definitely a valid argument. But perhaps the main reason would be a fear that “terror” would be aimed at the editor or the building where the office is?
On this silence: Due to a general Western Christian faintheartedness, Islamists feel safe and prosper.
The anti-Catholic bias in Adventism has always been a self-serving, groundless phobia. Never during the duration of Adventism has even one of the manufactured histrionic screeches ever been sourced in reality.
Wake up SDA's! The Catholic Church couldn't care less what day anyone keeps. It is consumed with its moral crisis and even has services on Saturday. Time to encounter the real threat, Islam. In the last four hundred years the Catholic church has skewered no one. Not so Islam. Maybe the Great Controversy needs to be rewritten to account for the real threat to the free world. At any rate, it is time for all Christian bodies to unite in some kind of force to counter the actual heinous, diabolical, effects of Islam.
The anti-Catholic bias in Adventism has always been a self-serving, groundless phobia. Never during the duration of Adventism has even one of the manufactured histrionic screeches ever been sourced in reality.
Wake up SDA's! The Catholic Church couldn't care less what day anyone keeps. It is consumed with its moral crisis and even has services on Saturday. Time to encounter the real threat, Islam. In the last four hundred years the Catholic church has skewered no one. Not so Islam. Maybe the Great Controversy needs to be rewritten to account for the real threat to the free world. At any rate, it is time for all Christian bodies to unite in some kind of force to counter the actual heinous, diabolical, effects of Islam.
'Does the apostle John suggest that Fundamentalist Islam could be added to the list of antichristian powers?'
Borge, once again, you are a breath of fresh air here in the sense that you present for discussion a very interesting theological issue, and one not caught up in the usual "culture wars" found within Adventism.
'Does the apostle John suggest that Fundamentalist Islam could be added to the list of antichristian powers?'
Possibly – probably. But are you suggesting that Islam, not the RC Church, has a certain eschatological identification? Or are you simply suggesting Islam's inclusion in the anti-Christ model, which you rightly point out is not a person per se, but can include many anti-Christs?
The point I do gain from your passage here is the oversimplistic way Adventists often see Roman Catholics as the eschatological boogie-man. Even within traditional Adventist eschatology, it isn't just the RC but rather the end-time religious conglomorate, a union of false religions typified by the three frogs, which is the end-time persecuting power.
'…they do not recognize the incarnation'
My understanding is that John was most likely addressing the proto-Gnostics of his own day, who promoted the heresy of Docetism, which is the idea that Jesus didn't really come in the flesh but was actually just an etheral spirit in disguise. The Gnostics were the first major Christian heretics, whose leader Marcion led indirectly to the formation of the NT cannon and proto-orthodox Church. Whilst the proto-orthodox suppressed the proto-Gnostics, the Church (in what would eventually become catholicism) absorbed many of their ideas.
Thus, my understanding is that the 'babylon' of false worship is in fact the anti-Hebrew Gnostic anti-materialism teachings of Plato, which ended up pervading Catholic Christianity, most Eastern religions, Jewish Kabbalah, Islamic Sufism and much found today in Evangelical-Pentecostalism. The SDA Church, by contrast and in fulfillment of our divine mission, is the least Gnostic denomination in Christendom.
Now where Muslims fall within that I don't know. Because in some ways Islam is quite anti-Gnostic as well. So whether John would have called Muslims anti-Christs for rejecting the trinity I am not sure, because the Matthean Jewish-Christians of the era, who were also very anti-Gnostic, most likely rejected the Trinity as well. And funny thing, so did many of the early SDA Pioneers.
"Good Muslims" live in society as good citizens; both in their native countries and wherever they have immigrated.
I recall a story of two Chinese missionaries (one Protestant and one Catholic) who met somewhere in the far interior of China. Each questioned the other how their missionary work was progressing. One made this succint comment: "I usually convert the best and kindest Daoist in the village; but the only change is that he was baptized into Christianity and continues living as a good Daost as he always has."
What has been accomplised when a "good Muslim" becomes Christian? It is those who are terrorizing the people that need converting, but that is not happening.
Had you or I been born in a Muslim country of Muslim parents, what are the chances of us ever becoming Christian? And would it make a different in our life?
Without a doubt there are countless "good Muslims," ordinary people who have no other desire than to live a full life. But they aren't the problem. It's the channel their religion provides for psychopathic behavior and the disdain it appears to hold for the modern world and the resulting middle ages mentality it encourages. Terrorism and the psychos administering it operate with little restraint from those within that community. And it is like a dry sponge when exported to other countries, seems harmless. is welcomed and welcomes itself where freedom of religion operates, then becomes oppressive as it soaks up the moisture of freedom. It's not so-very-hidden agenda is to force the world to be Islamic. Convert the infidels, or kill them. Yes, the previous operators of that outlook, the Catholic Church, ceased and desisted on that process centuries ago, (a serious indelible smudge on its character even yet).
"Converting" them to Christianity isn't a viable option. The western nations and the Christian religions within them need to wake up and develop strategies to protect freedom from this monstrous threat.
I know a few Christians whose religions seems to channel them into psychos
Which comes first, psychosis or religion? Chicken or the egg? When I was a chaplain the SDA social worker and I had this discussion many times. Never figured it out. At least, harmless was the operative word for those sickos.
Great question. A related question would more specifically related to Adventism, is whether the Adventist message makes people more apocalyptic and conspiracy minded, or whether it simply attracts people who are more naturally attracted to apocalyptic conspiracy theories?
To use a well-known analogy. There has long be a grand conspiracy about supposedly infiltrating Jesuits within Protestantism. This theory is especially strong amongst Adventists, with their being much musings that certain SDA Pastors are secretly Jesuits in disguise. Now the official SDA Church can't be blamed in the sense this is not an official-backed conspiracy.
Great question. A related question would more specifically related to Adventism, is whether the Adventist message makes people more apocalyptic and conspiracy minded, or whether it simply attracts people who are more naturally attracted to apocalyptic conspiracy theories?
To use a well-known analogy. There has long be a grand conspiracy about supposedly infiltrating Jesuits within Protestantism. This theory is especially strong amongst Adventists, with their being much musings that certain SDA Pastors are secretly Jesuits in disguise. Now the official SDA Church can't be blamed in the sense this is not an official-backed conspiracy.
i agree Bugs Larry. the Western nations are pussy footing around a very dangerous invasion from Islamic societies. Ask the residents in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois what differences have resulted where ghettos of Islamics have set up residence. They are fast being controlled into voting blocs and in fundamental Shariah goverance , by importation of Imans.We already have Islamic Representatives in Congress seeking to change laws and ordinances, beneficial totheir constitutents, which are alien to western traditional values. Are you not aware of the large number of Islamic czars and advisors Obama has brought into the White House?? Some states are having special Islamic holidays recognition, even incorporating some of these ideas into the school schedules. One school principal even permitted the morning pledge in the name of Allah, in order to be politically correct. The Islamic Religion doesn't deny that it seeks to control "all people" totally, and that Shariah Law has the answer for every fact of life. Any person not of their faith is an infidel, and subject to extermination. That they are no different than a mangy infested mongrel dog. As Larry has said, they terrorize other Islamic groups seeking to adopt apart of the western freedom of religion, but are soon threatened and examples made of some to bring the masses into subjection.
We are dealing here with a anti-freedom of religion influx into our country, and if we don't stop it in its tracks, it will have the votes in 100 years to change the USA into a Shariah based state. Freedom loving people, with freedom of religion choice,have invited into our society a religious hierarchy bent on control, and offering the citizenry a choice of ALLAH, or death. Wake up America, you have brought the Trojan Horse into our midst.
As the US population has aged, it has grown increasingly fearful (as old folks naturally do, unless otherwise bolstered to stand strong) and has been particularly receptive to fears of conspiracies and trends and new developments that seem ominous and even terminally dangerous to the nation and to themselves as aging Americans. Hence the substitution of the "Islamic Scare" for the "Red Scare" of approximately five decades ago, when conservatives were likewise galvanized to terrible fears of Communist infiltration to the very core of America. But interestingly the apogee of Communism in North America occurred demographically 20 years before it became a great issue in the population. It was a long-delayed reaction to a situation far more dangerous in Mr. Roosevelt's day than Ike Eisenhower's.
It may well be that the "Muslim Scare" is also a delayed response to issues that are well on the road to being laid to rest, as America depends less and less on the Middle East for energy resources, as Al Kaeda practices its mischief increasingly in the Middle East and Africa, rather than America and Europe, and as liberal education increasingly affects the younger generations in the Middle East. Few seem to recognize how close the "Arab Spring" came to revolutionizing and overthrowing the elements in the Middle East that harbor and incubate Muslim extremists. It was an exceedingly close call, a wake-up alarm for those who use Islam as a rallying call to kill.
Let us not underestimate the political power and religious fervor of the huge part of the world's population that belongs to some variant of cultural Islam. But let us also remember that during most of history, Islam has been a somewhat laid-back, self-centered element of the world population—a population of relatively few ideas that fell into its own Dark Ages as surely as Christianity did about 1,000 years ago. That there are revolutionary forces struggling for control of Islam should not be interpreted as Islam being completely anti-Western. Islam became great, along with Christianity, by being mellow and hospitable to other religions and cultures, after things began to settle in following the death of the Islamic founder, as his followers focused on who would succeed the Prophet. To some extent the strongly entrenched "denominations" within Islam are the primary source of radical ideas, as this struggle flairs up politically from time to time. But it does not appear to me that the classical elements of invasion and conquer are present in the movement of Muslim refugees to America and Europe. By and large these appear to be people who sincerely desire to mingle and possibly integrate into Western life, and to some degree their ghetoization (where it has occurred) has been the product of Western rather than Islamic initiative. There is indeed the phenomenon of the Internet and other communication devices being used by radical leaders to call for Jihad. To the extent these radical voices can be tuned out (and listeners will ultimately tire of them) the assimilation of Muslims to the West will become as natural as the settling in of Buddhists or followers of Baha'i.
There are struggles ahead, but no need for panic or despair….
Please name me the emmigration places where a happy amalgamation of "peaceful" Islam is ocurring in those adopted cultures.
And where are the voices of these "peaceful" Islamics being raised against the "radicals?"
Great blog.
Key point to me?
"..A relatively high percentage of Muslims in the West are attempting to live a life dictated by the Koran and Sharia law. Some are also trying indirectly to impose their religous laws, culture and lifestyle on their new context."
Yes, goodwill, graciousness and tolerance are the perfect incubator for precisely the opposite by those welcomed.
I've thought ye Americans were too religious to wake up, but Borge gives me hope:)
The Bible reveals who the anti-Christ is with satan leading the pack.
I'm just trying to figure out from what planet Trevor and Edwin posted….?
I hope Edwin is right, but I'm pretty sure Trevor is not. If one were to get into prophecy and the like and take a careful look at the rise, duration, and (temporary) demise of Islam it does not take much effort to see 1260 yrs of rise, followed by a wounding and present recovery!
But, these similarites are probably just as coincidental as were those on which previous SDA card building took place…
We too easily find what we are looking for because we are blind to what we are not.
Wow! Now here's a classic but rare example of a liberal with a conspiracy theory which suggests that Islam is the anti-Christ. Islamophobia perhaps?
Ah, yes, conspiracy theories…
First, I did not say I subscribe to it.. read the second last sentence Trevor!!
Secondly, if I did subscribe to the theory: Why would that be a "conspiracy theory" and that to which SDA's have subscribed about the RC's NOT be a conspiracy theory?
Just one example: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-or-islamophobia2?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SamHarris+The+End+Of+Faith%2C+by+Sam+Harris
According to Wikipedia, Muslims immigrants were present at the foundation of the United States and Thomas Jefferson himself drafted various foundational documents to ensure that they would be afforded religious freedom and could participate fully in the benefits of the Republic, including the ability to rise even to the highest political positions, including the presidency. Wikipedia goes on to identify about 2 million US residents as Muslims. Immigration of Muslims to the US began in earnest in 1840, and most have fully integrated into American life. Hate crimes against Muslims are relatively rare. The primary sources for those who have come to America and now live here are listed as follows:
(majority Sunni, also Shia, Sufi, non-denominational Muslims, Nation of Islam, 5 percenter, Moorish scientist, Quranic Movement)
May this help you in your further studies, my brother…..
This is an insightful blog Dr. Schantz has presented. He is saying what many of us have been thinking for a long time. It has not been printed widely, I assume, because of possible retaliation on church members in some countries.
I don't want to see Muslims become scapegoats in this country. There is no reason they should not have their holidays recognized as do Christians and Jews and be treated with respect and freedom. Yet there is an element to be wary of, and there are Islamic groups speaking out against them. I have seen them on TV. One could speculate endlessly on this spreading possible threat. I do believe in AntiChrists (pl) rather than singular, and there have been many down through the ages. That is the broad worldwide view.
The Bible is about the Judeo-Christian faith and doesn't include other religions. RC is the branch of Christianity (the major one at one time) that changed the religion. I has been a threat to religious liberty and persecuted in the past. But its members were persecuted at other times by Protestants. Many in the US saw RC a threat, and antiCatholicism was high at the turn of the century. What can happen now isn't really foreseeable to me at this time.
I understand from those living in England, that many Muslim immigrants take advantage of the good will of Britain by registering for aid for multiple wives and families who live separetely but have one husband. And because of the radical element, people rightly feel unsafe.
Ella, the muslims are antiChrist, antiChristian. they hate our guts. They would like nothing better than spill our guts on the ground, behead us so our heads roll in the dust. Are some unaware of the atrocities occurring in Syria, by USA financed rebels. Of the Al Queda backed Islamic mercenaries murdering by the thousands, as they slice throats of all those opposing Shariah law, in Syria and Nigeria?? Soon to carry their Faith driven orders to murder "all" non belivers in every part of North Africa?? Wake up people before this scourge ignites here. Their Mohammad Quran demands death to all nonsupporters of ALLAH. They cannot be accepted as equals,by Christians, and all other religious societies that are opposed to imposed coercion, by penalty of death, should they resist Shariah Law. They follow a non-loving god of savagery and death. We follow a God of Life and Love. The USA and Western world had better institute Laws that forbid Islamic culture to be imported or practiced on our soil, quickly, and institute a fast withdrawal of citizenship and deportation to those unwilling to accept Western morality, and be assimilated into our culture, lifestyles, and language. If this doesn't happen soon, we will have mass murders and many innocents will be annihilated by angry mobs of armed Americans. The past several administrations have paid the way to America for any and all muslims who wish to relocate here, and are paying on a continual basis for free Welfare, Meds, Dentistry, housing, food etc, at a higher allowance than Americans receive. Why is that????
You must not know any Muslims, certainly not as friends. Most are moderate in this country, and I don't think your interpretation of the Koran would fit. Have you read it? I know of two Muslims organizations who have stood up and spoken against the radicals. I saw and heard them on Fox TV. AlQueda doesn't even abide by the Koran.
That has been the history of mankind–to put the worst possible motives on ALL people of a group they dislike and say all are the same, as the Nazis did with the Jews. That is the root of all wars. If they forbid Islamic culture to be imported on our soil, as you said, they would also forbid Sabbath worship and Adventist culture. Wake up!
Ella, you say, "Most are moderate in this country. . ." Most might be, but not all and not all of their Imams are. I don't know any Muslims, would probably like them if I did. That isn't the issue. The problem is that Islamic culture is counter to values we hold dear. The threat, visibly expressed around the world, is the systemic mix of religion and politics that has Sharia law at its core. At its base is the elimination of all other religions. Other religions are not tolerated, or barely so in strictly Arab countries. The Sharia legal system is barbaric by our standards. I'm not sure, Ella, how you can be so non-assuming considering the treatment of women in that culture. You can say it is cultural, over there, not here, but the Islamic women I can identify in public are wearing either the Hijab (Jibab). Not hard to miss them. I did meet a Moslem man while I was a Chaplain and he was greatly concerned that his wife be treated and seen by only women.
Some of my concern is based what reportedly is happening in France where Gendarmes cannot go into Moslem settlements. France has tried to outlaw strict covering of women, so far without success, I believe. In England, Sharia law has been recognized by courts as a viable alternative to British law. (I qualify all this by admitting I am limited to news reports on this and cannot assure to the veracity of either of my statements). However, the killing of Christians in some Arab countries is a pretty good indicator of what happens when a religion dedicated to the elimination of all others has majority rule.
A guarded stance against this religion is in no way equivalent to anti-Semitism or a Nazi attitude. Are you aware only nine Muslims have won Noble prizes, two this year, one from Bangladesh, and the other form Turkey? Of the other eight this year, six were Jews, two Israelis. One hundred thirty Jews have won Noble prizes. This is only to illustrate that Islam promotes a dark ages culture that resists learning and is diametrically opposite to our way of life.
My concerns aren't anti-Arabic, anti-personal Muslim, just pro liberty, unsullied by a threat to its exercise.
Bugs, perhaps if you actually knew some Muslims, as I do, you'd realise but biggotry guff most of this is.
Your stereotype of Muslims and Islam is no more valid, nor the reality, than those who classify Christianity by the Ku Klux Klan (who also claim to be a Christian organisation). If we want to talk about the dangers of a rising theocracy, I can see greater danger than the US itself. On that count, traditional SDA eschatology seems more to the mark than fears of the Islamic boogie man.
Sharia standards might seem barbaric by your standards, but the American system (supposedly founded on Judeo-Christian principles according to your own Fox-Taliban) seems almost as barbaric to the rest of us who live in other OCED nations.
On several points you wrongly conflate religion with culture. The hijab for example is not strictly Islamic but actually reflective of Middle Eastern culture (i.e. including of Bible times amongst Jews and Christians). In fact, Paul effectively asks women to wear the same in 1 Cor 11:6. The only difference is our culture has now interpreted that text differently.
Finally, as to your point about Islam promoting Dark Age culture, you must not read history then? The only thing keeping science, philosophy and culture alive during the Dark Ages in Europe was Islamic societies. The Renaissance occured due to Arab influences.
Again, the problem with the Middle East today is not Islam per say but a range of historical-cultural factors. Islam has gone backwards in most of these countries. Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia was a fairly recent movement that, like many fundamentalist movements, said Imams should forget the moderate views of Islamic jurisprudence developed during the 7th to 11th centuries.
So the problem with the Middle East is not Islam but a certain fundamentalist and ludite version of Islam. You can't blame the Koran or all Muslims for that. In the same way one can't blame all Christians or the Bible for the Ku Klux Klan or Fox-News Christian fundamentalism.
I alluded to the possibility of my information being incomplete regarding details in my post, however, you have not addressed the overall facts. And my question remains, why aren't the good guys in Islam standing up to the bad guys? My impression is because the bad guys are on the unimpeded upswing, and the good guys are secretly either sympathetic or fearful.
The Moors in the middle ages were bright, creative, assimilative to the advancement generated by other cultures and were serious contributors to the intellectual advancements in every field of the that period. It has been pegged the "Islamic Golden Age." From about the thirteenth century, the anti-intellectual thread has strung into our time, robbing the world of some great contributions by great minds (my opinion). Where Judaism and Christianity have prevailed, intellectualism has flourished, (yes, with some bumps along the way).
"So the problem with the Middle East is not Islam but a certain fundamentalist and ludite (sic) version of Islam." Isn't the luddite version the one landing on foreign shores? It's the function and not the theory (I never mentioned the Koran) that I see as a threat.
When Muslims arrive in this country, and the others, and their women dress like women here, their men don't find it necessary to kill daughters too influenced by western culture, they loudly denounce the murderous idiots, the luddites, besmirching and polluting their religion, my phobic hysteria may be reduced! When they embrace learning, develop their reservoir of fine minds as contributors to life improvement and understanding I will happily concede to the emergence of "good" Islam (Peace).
A boogie man is an imagined threat. Emerging Islam is no boogie man! Your pleasant portrait is contradicted by reality.
Steve,
You have a good response above, but I do take issue with your stereotype of Fox as extreme as the Taliban. Do you really believe this or get it from other news sources or peers? It is as bad as what Bugs says about Muslims–another hateful group think.
I doubt you have ever watched it regularly. I would go so far as to say if one doesn't watch both types of news, they really do not know what is going on in this country and don't care (most youth don't, and have been shown to be highly ignorant of history and current events but vote Democrat).
I may not always agree with everything said, because I am Independant and hold views from both "liberal" and conservative sides. This station has a large number of women and African-American commentators; even staunch liberals.
If you ever watched the Bill O'Reilly show much, you would see that it clearly is "no spin." He is a the most completely honest commentator I know of. He often takes the "other" side if he feels it's true. He always has liberal and Democratic views expressed on his show. I don't know how much more you can want from a news commentator. Some think he is pompous, I don't care as long as he is honest.He has even spoken against his own religion (Catholicism) when he thinks the pope is wrong.
Other stations report only selective news and deny outright wrong-doing in our government or give it little publicity if any.
I am really disappointed in your political bigotry about the US, and you don't live here. The majority are conservative, are not racist in any sense of the word, and think for themselves. But we are being given selective news, and conservatives are hunted down for comments made years ago that even the president might have made at one time.
This could happen to Muslims if the celebrity/political arena turns against them as they have with Christianity. There are a small precentage of Christians (like Muslims) who have said horrible things, and the media uses them as typical of us all. The only race issue I see is how Af.Am vote as a block and chastize any of their group who dare think for themselves. But the latter group is growing.
BTW I am not anti-gay but have always stood up for this group, but wouldn't deny the church its stand at this time nor the freedom to express it. I want to see political balance. I may seem conservative because they are the underdogs right now and need defelnse of their freedoms.
I am telling you this because apparently you are out of touch with real US life.
Bugs: 'And my question remains, why aren't the good guys in Islam standing up to the bad guys?'
They are – it is just they don't get the coverage in the media. Consider, for example, the massive amount of work done by say the Indonesian Government (the world's biggest Muslim country) in combating Islamic extremism. Indonesia is a good example precisely because whilst the majority are Muslims, they aren't Arabs. So it helps distinguish between this issue of religion and the issue of culture and ethnicity, which are interrelated but not all exactly the same.
'My impression is because the bad guys are on the unimpeded upswing, and the good guys are secretly either sympathetic or fearful.'
I get the same impression about you Americans. Why is Gitmo still open? Where are all the 'good guys' in your country, as your liberal President goes about assinating its own citizens without trial with robot drones, or killing people at weddings during the same.
And given we get Fox News, am I to assume Fox and Friends or O'Reily or Glen Beck (when he was on) is a fair representation of American views. Because if it is, then it seems your educational system is even poorer than I previously believed.
Now I doubt that is a wholly fair view of your country and your citizenry. But the 'good guys' don't seem to get much coverage where I am sitting. All we get is the crap your media feeds us, in your decadant movies, promiscuous celibrities and idiotic cable news channels.
'From about the thirteenth century, the anti-intellectual thread has strung into our time, robbing the world of some great contributions by great minds (my opinion).'
Indeed, so you can't just label all Muslims or Arabs negatively as you have. The downward slide seems to have happened for three major reasons: i) around that time the Mongols invaded and pretty much sacked the Middle Eastern civilisations; ii) developments in naval technology meant European ships could travel around the Cape of Good hope in Africa to India and the Far East directly, cutting out the silk road and thus the Middle East as the middle-men of trade; and iii) the discovery of the New World, which was exploited almost entirely by the Western nations which borded the Atlantic Ocean.
'…and ludite (sic)…'
Sorry if I knew this was going to be a spelling test I would have double-checked this.
'When they embrace learning, develop their reservoir of fine minds as contributors to life improvement and understanding I will happily concede to the emergence of "good" Islam (Peace).'
A harsh and unsubstantiated judgment when you don't seem to know any Muslims. I know quite a few, across a number of countries, and they are on the whole well-adapted people.
I used to be an immigration lawyer for the Governments of both Australian and UK, both with large numbers of recent Muslim immigration. I can tell you who was deported for what. It was mostly black Afro-West Indies who were deported for crime-related offences. Muslims by contrast largely got along and assimilated quite well.
I am not entirely sure of the stats in the US but remember reading an article about how US Muslims are actually the most integrated in the whole Western World.
Again, I think traditional SDA eschatology has more going for it, in saying the threat is actually from the US Government plus other Christians. I am not saying unassimilated Muslims aren't a problem, but I'd rather a Muslim that most other so-called Christians.
I put my money where my own mouth is. One of my tennants in one of my houses is a devout Muslim family from Somalia. You can't get a better example of that, from that country being a failed state and their brand of Islam quite extreme.
But you know what, they are very respectful, honest and hard-working people. I'd rather than any day than some white trash.
And by the way, when I talk of preferring Muslim Somalis over white trash, I should just clarify I am white myself.
You are PC, of course, in your own view, but suffer other bigotries about which you know nothing or want to.
Steve, BTW, do you know any "white trash?" Please explain this negative stereotype.
I do agree with the garbage of Hollywood that has been exported over the years. Interestingly, the large majority of those putting this stuff out, are liberal Democrats. They oppose gun laws while profiting from media gun violence. The are for equality, but are among the most obscenely righ people in the country. They are negative role models on most every level.
Yes Ella, and without denigrating the fifth commandment, it includes many of my extended family and childhood friends.
Ella, I am from a bogan background. A "bogan" is somewhat an Australian version of "white trash." I use that negative statement because I come from that background myself, so I do indeed know what I am talking about it.
Be warned, my speling cancerns are a dooble standerd. For othars, not for me. (sic)
That the US government is a threat is not in question, considering our current administration and its dictatorial, lawless penchant. A majority of Americans, I believe, grieve the decline of our country, education being only one of countless symptoms. I think Fox News, in general, is closer to the American outlook than you might think. And it is the only counterbalance to a media that has entirely abandoned objectivity in virtually every arena, in favor of the current administration.
Nine Eleven has permanently scarred our psyche. Not so much that evil people could conceive of such a thing, but the process of seemingly fine young Arabic men partaking freely and appearing to adapt to our culture "sleeper" so completely and then do what they did. The same with the Boston marathon bombers. I know, they represent a minuscule percentage. The example of Mohammads profligate life, the concept of Jihad, and the intent to establish Sharia law woldwide underpin concerns.
I value your opinion based on your experience. Unclear that part about SDA theology's identification of US governmental threat. Isn't it the Papacy identified therein? I grew up looking at the mountains of Colorado from the plains thinking how cold it would be up there while we were hiding out from the Catholics.
The church of the 50s and into the 60s and before was extreme, as was the country in many ways. Think the battle for civil rights. So it would not be surprising kids got these ideas. For me, I was in constant fear of the H-bomb. So pick your childhood fear! We all have them.
I emphasize more of a Christ-centered faith, for He is symbolized throughout the Bible. It's more what symbols and metaphors mean; not their literal existence in time.
As for the US in prophecy, I learned in church Bible studies it was the second beast of Revelation 13:11-18. The first beast was the papal system which would influence the US to pass religious laws (or laws against some religions). I think most SDAs will say the beast is a symbol of church and state united. Of course, this is true in Muslim countries, so they qualify on a world-wide level. The US was chosen as the second beast because it came up out of the water (not so densely populated) rather than the earth from where the first beast rose.
You will note the OT or NT doesn't usually speak to the politics of other religions outside of the Judeo-Christian faith, so we shouldn't expect Islam to be targetted as is the RC church. RC is targetted as a system or church institution and not its people. These figures are all symbols for systems in Revelation just as the figure of a woman is always the symbol of a religious system (Rev. 17 and the OT). The Sabbath, for example, is symbolic of Christ's finished work on the cross–our Rest in Him.
When the West gained control of the oil in Saudi Arabia in dealings with Abd al-' Aziz ibn 'Abd al-Rahman Al Faysal Al Sa'ud, (Arabia named for him). King Abdul Aziz, a warlord, gained control of most of Sauda Arabia between 1914-1917, on camels, and with long rifles, and swords. The Arabs of the Hejaz, a different tribe had a territory given to them (Jordan), and the Jews a homeland (Palestine), under English mandate, along with Turkey & others which was carved out the previous Ottoman Empire. The Middle East is 90% Islamic., with the advent of OPEC theyhave great wealth (Oil). The young Islamic is taught to "MEMORIZE" the Quran, and never reason or question its literal philosophy or its prophet Mohammad. Some universities will not admit students without this prerequisite. There are 2 main groups of Islam, The Shia and the Sunni. The Shia followed the very strict Whhabi sect, as did Abdul Aziz, and have been great supporters of terrorism by the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia since, along with the Shities of Iran, Yeman, and the Baathists in Syria/Lebanon. Because of OIL they have flexed their muscle to dominate the world, and bring "SHARIAH LAW to all the world. Should this occurr all infidels, and Christians, who refuse to deny the Lord Jesus Christ, and accept Islamism are subject to death, as they are currently being annihilated in Syria. This is factual. Iran is gaining control of Iraq, and the bloodshed there will become more evident as the Shities become the power over the Sunnis. These people have been at each others throats for over 1300 hundred years. They are all tribal, and even today many of these areas are controlled by area warlords. The Shariah Islamics are deadly serious of recovering the Ottoman Empire, and then the world. The West must respond now, to return the initial elements of the Islamic root plan, of gaining power from within the infidels homelands.
Sir, what happened to love your neighbours; love your enemies; turn the other cheek; bless those who curse you; pray for those who persecute you; forgive those who hurt you; just love everybody and accept others for who they are – and everything will be ok? Oh I forgot. It exclude Muslims.
I see no coherent plan in Islam do dominate the world. The whole Middle East right now is a basket case of military, political, and religious dysfunction; most centers of Islam outside the Middle East have apparently little interest in Jihad, and there is absolutely no dominant, leading figure to unify the factions.
I see no reason for great concern now, though we must recognize that as a wounded giant, the tail-flickings of of Islam can occasionally be lethal for those caught in their lethal arc.
Bugs: 'Unclear that part about SDA theology's identification of US governmental threat. Isn't it the Papacy identified therein?'
In traditional SDA eschatology, isn't the Second Beast of Relevation the USA? It enforces the First Beast, which is the Papacy.
I wasn't clear. The threat of the US Government is a threat to its citizens and seems to be expecting a reaction, having bought have tens of millions of rounds of ammunition, mostly hollow point. Approximately a dozen government agencies (US Postal Service is bidding on 600,000 rounds, Education department has purchased Glock pistols and shotguns, NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, has bought about 100,000 round of most hollow points. The department of Agriculture, revealed on May 7, 2014, is bidding on an undisclosed amount of machine guns with high-capacity magazines. There are more, just Google "what US government agencies are buying weapons and hollow point ammunition?"
There may be a perfectly good reason for these purchases. If so, what could it be?
This link, imho, offers an excellent insight into the Muslim issue.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lifting-the-veil-of-islamophobia
It reminds me of the homosexual issue. I am not entirely sure 100% what I believe theologically.
But as a person, one of my best friends and work colleagues, who I spend 8 hours with all day, every day, is a raving lesbian (she'd be cool with me using that term). She is also Asian (if you want to add the race angle).
I can't maintain any rage or hate in light of our strong friendship. And I somewhat suspect that is what Christianity is largely about.
The same goes with Muslims, given the various Muslims in my life, from: the Turkish girl who grew up next door; the Palestinian friend from Law School; my Pakistani housemate in London; or my devote Somali tennants.
Theologically, at this time at least, I believe the Bible was not talking about homosexual love but the kind of acts done by pagans, even as part of their religion. Rome's emporer and some wealthy, according to history, took part in these acts. I suspect it was widespread. There were men, known as teachers, who took young boys. There is an SDA scholar who has written on this, but don't remember his name. I think he was right.
Weren't eunuchs "born that way," homosexual? They were expected to be celibate.
In the OT even the women were owned and a perverted marriage existed with multiple wives. And all the men in Sodom and Gormorrah were not homosexuals but practicing an act to humiliate rather than sexual.
Anyway those outside our particular church should be free to be who they are and no laws against their practice–I would expect they should be married rather than not.
Ella I largely agree. In NT times, homosexuality of the kind Paul addressed was largely paedophilia; whereas, in those times, if two adult men were in a homosexual relationship it was ironically considered improper and disgusting. Similarly in OT times, much of the homosexuality contemplated involves hetrosexual men raping other hetrosexual men as a matter of power – prison style – as seen in the example of Lot in Sodom and Gomorah.
So it is important to compare oranges with oranges, not oranges with apples. I can't see anywhere that explicitly contemplates two adult homosexuals in a monogomous relationship. The closest is Jesus statement about Eunuchs, including not just castrates but a wider class, and I agree with your comments on that.
Ella M and Steve Ferguson are good examples of how dangerous positions of doctrine and extreme conclusions are formulated especially when one goes off on a tangent trying to justify something the Bible speaks plainly of just so they can make the puzzle fit the pieces – and in order to make it kosher they casually misinterpret scripture. For example, 'eunuchs' are misinterpreted to be homosexuals when this isn't the case at all. The homosexual behaviour Paul warns against is suggested to be just the paedophila kind. It doesn't matter what one may call himself or herself (hetero or homo), when same gender sexual lust or acts are practiced, it is homosexual in nature and therefore sinful. All homosexual behaviour is an abomination to God. There is not a single homosexual marriage or same sex sexual monogomous relationship that is blessed or sanctioned by God in the whole Bible. It is a perverse thing to even suggest this let alone practice and condone it whether by vote or assent.
I would add that all sexual practice outside of marriage is sinful. Also the multiple wives of the OT were not God's will, and they were sinful. Adultery is just as sinful as homosexual practice, wouldn't you agree? Why are we not talking about that. It destroys more families. Please explain to me what you think a eunuch "born that way" means if it is not a homosexual person. I believe, just as today, a homosexual Christian should be celibate. I think I said this.
I agree, including your last statement about celibacy. I think Trevor is slightly verballing us, but I don't mind being called dangerous.
Sir, you said Eunuchs were homosexuals of which nowhere in the Bible is such taught. I did not say 'you' are dangerous but only that the 'position' you hold is.
Does the Bible explicitly have to say homosexual to mean that? Isn't the Bible full of such allusions, where it is left to a hint rather than an explicit statement? Isn't that entirely how Jesus communicated, through parables and such hints, so those with a closed heart wouldn't understand Him? Who else was Jesus referring to do you think?
Just take a look at the conspiracy theories liberals come up with when they strongly suggest and prophesy that Islam is the anti-Christ. Can they back it up with some scriptural proof?
Antichrist in the Bible is plural. There was no papacy at the time Paul discussed the antichrists. Islam was not around. It would seem to have to be more widely described than the papacy–which as a system is one of them .
Dr Boshell says (emboldened):
1] "The anti-Catholic bias in Adventism …"
Adventists nowhere have claimed to be anti-Catholic. We are Protestants. In fact Adventists teach that we "wrestle not against flesh and blood." [Eph 6:12]
It is also another well known fact that the Catholic Church has been indentified as the anti-Christ long before Adventists came into existence.
2] "…the real threat, Islam…"
"…the Great Controversy needs to be rewritten to account for the real threat to the free world… "
Not too long ago the West was making a big hoo-hah about the Soviet Union been the anti-Christ and the bogeyman on the planet during the cold war. Yet the Great Controversy keeps and has kept in line with biblical revelation and interpretation and confirms who the anti-Christ of the end-times is – and it ain't Islam.
3] "…the actual heinous, diabolical, effects of Islam…"
Hmm… Let's see what "heinous and diabolical" has the West got:
abortion; homosexual marriage; pornography; child pornography; fornication; sexual immorality; prostitution; immodesty; gender bender agenda; alcoholism; drug abuse; drug addiction; smoking; legalised ganja; secularism; humanism; evolution theory; moral relativsim…
Whilst we all know that Islam has its many shortcomings, we have to be honest and acknowledge that the West has got a lot of dirt in its own back yard too.
4] "Which comes first, psychosis or religion?"
“I have treated many hundreds of patients. Among those in the second half of life – that is to say, over 35 – there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that every one of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given their followers, and none of them has really been healed who did not regain his religious outlook.”
― C.G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul
#1 sounds crazy; I guess I'm younger than I remember but never heard this stuff. We joined the church when I was 17. I did find a book about nuns in an old chest that accused them of killing babies that they had by priests. It was not an Adventist book, so reflected the times.
Luther believed the papacy was the Antichrist as did his followers of the time and probably most of the reformed churches. They drowned one of my ancestors for being Mennonite and teaching baptism by immersion. Mennonites are one of the few pacificist Christian groups.
i believe we are fast approaching that. Great Day of God Almighty. ARMAGEDDON. Two mighty armies will fill the valley, and the mountains There will be mighty thunders and lightnings, and the greatest earthquake of all time. This is the last battle, where all participants will be annihilated. God puts an end to mans hostilities on Earth. And God said "IT IS DONE". The earthquake will be the mother of all earthquakes, shattering most everything. It will shake the whole Earth, probably every volcano will erupt, the mountains leveled.
The armies will be NATO versus the ISLAMIC NATIONS. Iran will get their nucleur bomb, due to the intransigence of the Potus.
Not sure if I agree. That said a little like Evangelical Dispensationalism of the Left Behind series.
A more likely outcome is a war between Islamic nations – namely a Saudi-led Sunni block versus an Iranian-backed Shia block.
Forecasting the future, the amateur version of prophecy, is a dismal exercise (see 1844) and if I were taking bets, Steve and Earl, I would bet against you both. Since it is usually the unexpected curve ball that whips past the up-to-bat prognosticators where their wise pronouncements morph into, at best, foul balls. Look at the Ukraine, while a semi-dormant crisis at the moment, it Putined up out of nowhere. I think the loud-mouths in Iran (not Arabic) are quite aware that while teasing Saudi Arabia (Arabic) might scare everyone and mess up oil deliveries around the world, the "Great Satan" has a great arsenal of weapons that could create a middle east radioactive hole, formerly known as Persia, where even the prophesied (yes they have their 1844 version awaiting), final Imam would sizzle with radio activity.
Earl, belief is fine. It doesn't need supporting evidence. It's an opinion.
Isn't it time to move on? This endless post is full of blah blah blah. Minutiae is the weapon of choice for true believers. I realize that courtesy requires a pretense on the part of wise people to acknowledge meritless arguments as worthy of kind response. But there comes a time when kindness gives way to the realization that in every project there will be a butterfly or a jumping mouse standing in the way. Dedication to inerrancy of Scripture, the Mother lode of creationism, is surrendered only when one realizes facts trump belief, not an easy transition. Walk away, I am, let these souls wallow in their belief. We will not convince them with facts to do otherwise.
Well now, i may make book, setting the odds for the final decision in the middle East. Ferguson's entry is a non bet, as the Sunnis & Shia have been in combat for 1300 hundred years or better, nothing new here. You should be aware here that several months ago when the Islamic Brotherhood (IB) was in command (Murchi), in Egypt i stated that the IB would be forced out and reduced to zero in acceptance throughout the middle East. Egypt, with its antiquities, has had Western Tourism as their paymaster for hundreds of years, and would not give it up. Fun loving King Farouk and his family,with England as His protector, set up the good life for Cairoand its citizens, and they aren't going to change. Nasser tried to change the status quo, but he failed to make it permanent (although he did get a memorial Dam named after him). Sadat another military man started harshly, but he too came around and close to an area alliance with Israel. The Egyptian Military are still in absolute control of the country, and will provide the security for the world's tourist. Egypt is like Geece, without Tourism they are deadsville, nothing, nada, zilch. My reference for the "great battle" is i believe most of Revelation prophecy is true. That the return of CHRIST is imminent, at the doors so to speak. My reasoning is that in the next few years the world will not depend on middle Eastern oil. The US & Canada have enough reserves to last several hundred-thousands years. The whole Earth is flooded with oil. The technology was the hangup. But with the fracking tools, and following expertize it will be brought up to the surface. But also it will not be needed as the worlds automotives will be 90% natural gas and lithion battery operation in another ten years. When the Euro union throws in the towel on the "greenie" issues, they will find fabulous reservoirs of oil and natural gas throughout the Euro continent, and all around the Medeterrainian Sea with FRACKING innovations. Back to the question of the "final battle". It will happen. Europe has had the Islamic immigration much longer than the US, and they have had enough of the cost of support and the fact of "in your face, we are here to stay" and we won't rest until we have the whole world under Shariah Law. WE will not assimilate, we will not change any of our customs or culture. The final complement of the armies involved isn't complete as yet, but at this time i
see Euro Nato, including the USA, England & Commonwealth nations against Russia, China and the Islamic nations.
Freemasonry has direct ties to both Catholicism and Islam – and is well entrenched in the USA. The fact that many today see Islam as the anti-Christ may very well indicate that the threat of Islam and the war on terror are perhaps nothing but crowd control mechanisms of social engineering which seems to be rather successful by the look of things especially in diverting attention away from you know who.