Should We Always Take the Bible Literally?

by David W. T. Brattston, January 19, 2016: In Matthew 18:8-9, Christ commands: “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.” How can anyone obey these injunctions literally, especially in the days before anesthetics and antiseptics, when they would result in death, by either blood loss or infection?
Solutions to the stark harshness of a literal application were provided by the church father Origen, who was the foremost Christian Bible scholar and teacher of the first half of the third century AD. What’s missing from writings in the second century indicates that he was correct.
Origen cited Matthew 18:8-9 as a prime example of Biblical injunctions that are impossible or unreasonable. He taught that the Holy Spirit placed such difficulties in the Scriptures in order to teach readers and interpreters not to confine themselves to the plain, literal wording, but to examine the passage more closely, to unveil the deeper meaning (On First Principles 4.1.18).
Origen taught that the underlying message the Holy Spirit intended readers to draw from the text was that the parts of the body represent members of a Christian’s family or circle of friends. “It is possible to apply these words to our nearest kinsfolk, being considered to be our members of our bodies, because of the close relationship; whether by birth, or from habitual friendship. We must not spare them if they are injuring our soul. Let us cut off from ourselves as a hand or a foot or an eye, a father or mother who wishes us to do that which is contrary to piety, and a son or daughter who would have us revolt from the church of Christ and the love of Him. Even if the wife of our bosom, or a friend who is kindred in soul, become stumbling-blocks to us, let us not spare them, but let us cut them out from ourselves, and cast them outside of our soul, as not being truly our kindred but enemies of our salvation; for “whosoever hates not his father, and mother,” etc. (Luke 14:26). We must hate them as enemies and assailants, that we may be able to win Christ, and be worthy of the Son of God. A lame person, so to speak, is saved when he has lost a foot—say a brother—and alone obtains the inheritance of the kingdom of God; and a maimed person is saved, when his parents are not saved, but they perish, while he is separated from them, and he alone obtains the blessings.” (Commentary on Matthew, 13.25)
Origen traveled throughout eastern Christendom at the request of local bishops, as a theological expert. Although familiar with widespread Christian practice and with local variations, he never indicated that believers in some geographical areas or sects actually did amputate their hands, feet, or eyes.
A common lack of body parts among Christians in ancient times could not escape notice and comment by even the most casual observer as a common feature among Christians. We possess the accounts by the pagan Pliny the Younger around AD 112, and most of the attack on Christianity half a century later by the pagan philosopher Celsus. Pliny was Roman governor in Turkey, part of whose job was to detect and persecute Christians. His letter to the Emperor (Epistle 10.96) described Christian faith and practices in some detail, but never mentioned self-mutilation. In his comprehensive denunciation of Christian behavior, Celsus would have jumped at the chance to ridicule voluntary destruction of body organs, or suicide by exsanguination or infection.
Justin Martyr wrote defenses of Christian beliefs and practices in the middle of the second century AD. Among other topics, he dealt with the pagan wish that Christians commit suicide rather than continue to bother the world by their presence and preaching (2 Apology 4). If believers of this period did indeed chop off their extremities, Justin would not have failed to mention that Christians did in fact court death, fulfilling the pagan hope.
Although we have thousands of Christian denominations, ministries, sects, cults, divisions, and church parties in our own day, not one advocates self-mutilation in obedience to Matthew 18:8-9. Either all historic and contemporary Christianity has been heretical, or Jesus intended that not all His sayings be applied literally.
David Brattston writes from the province of Nova Scotia on the Atlantic coast of Canada.
David,
The challenge I see in what you have described is, both individually and corporately, to become less tolerant of what drives people away from God, or that which fails to draw people into a closer relationship with God. As examples of that I suggest that perhaps the two popular topics of discussion on this website, prophecy (such as Dan. 8:14) and the duration of creation, need to be cut-off because they fail to draw people closer to God. What is more, the amount of arguing about them probably is driving people away from God. Now, do I imagine that the moderators of this site will have the courage to cut-off such profitless discussion? No, because of the deep Adventist addiction to endless discussion about them.
Of we really believe Jesus is coming soon, then it is time for us to get better focused on actually ministering God’s redeeming love instead of endless argument.
correction: “IF we really believe Jesus is coming soon…”
I disagree that the Adventist community is addicted to arguing, though arguing seems to be the pastime of choice among some who have time and conviction and wish to express themselves in a quality environment, where their thinking and their status as Christians will be honored and respected.
Ideally Adventist Today is such a place, and yes, I know it’s possible to get carried away in situations where zeal surpasses wisdom. Nothing in Adventist Today guidelines forbids backing up and asking forgiveness for something voiced too boldly, or with disrespect. Some of us become so wound up in defending Truth, that we disregard the elements of empathy toward others, often referred to in sacred writings as “mercy.”
As a child in an Adventist home I began reading the King James quite early in life, and I would come to these texts on mutilation, etc., and dismiss them as being figures of speech and/or philosophy, understanding them quite well as alluding to our spiritual growth and not to our physical integrity. Living in a medical family, I would often turn in mind to those who were told to sacrifice parts of their bodies to save the healthy parts from invasive cancer. But it is very clear that the Lord in this passage is not talking about the physical body. This distinction was not Rocket Science, even for a kid.
Still, it’s important to talk about these things and I applaud the guest columnist for his decision to present his valuable thoughts in AT….
David I think your interpretation of the texts is correct. Your choice of citing Origen is unfortunate, or ironic, or funny.
Origen was accused of castrating himself. It was never confirmed or denied by Origen himself.
https://medievalhistorygeek.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/did-origen-castrate-himself/
David’s choice to cite Origen was an apt one. He was one of the early church fathers who wrote prolifically. His insights were respected although he did not always accept the views of New Testament writers. Living from the 180s to the 250s his insights are fairly close to the New Testament era. Christian orthodoxy can trace its roots back to Origen. (Bart Ehrman would call him proto-orthodox since Christian orthodoxy was a later development.)
Self mutilation, and or murder, are sure signs of serious mental disease or demon possession. More reason to question what is added to scripture after many generations of verbal repeats or mischievous scribes.
Individual readers have made the determination for themselves whether a text is literal or symbolic. But the worst offenders has been the church which based doctrine on whether certain parts of scripture or to be read literally or allegorically or as metaphors. None of the Adventist church founders were college graduates or proficient in the biblical languages which including the differences between the Hebrew, Greek, and English as well as its changes in meaning in hundreds of years
Knowledge has increased, and there are many scholars who can speak authoritatively on biblical subjects without denying their inspiration. I have read and taken many theology courses over the years, and we do need to read the Bible in context. I depend on the scholars for the biblical language interpretations.
I agree with the premise of the article, but not the interpretation of the passage. Jesus was not advocating amputation or any form of bodily mutilation any more than Paul was advocating self-castration as an even higher form of piety than circumcision (see Galatians 5:12)
When I teach Inductive Bible Study (IBS), the first first interpretation tool is to look at the context. It becomes apparent that Jesus is using hyperbole (the millstone, cutting off your hand, plucking out your eye). That is the immediate context. The larger context might be the book of Matthew. What I observe in Matthew is Jesus’ emphasis of a person that is transformed from the inside-out versus a person who attempts transformation by external performance. See Matthew 23:25-26. So I believe that what Jesus was showing is the futility of an external performance-based religion.
The best explanation I have seen is from Dallas Willard’s book, The Divine Conspiracy. On pages 167-168, “Reductio ad Absurdum,” Jesus point was the futility of righteousness in terms of controlling behavior. You cannot control sexual desires by gouging out your eyes or cutting off your hands. See Matthew 5:27-30.
Again from Willard, “You could avoid sinning if you simply eliminated the body parts that make sinful actions possible.” Apropos a performance-based Adventism.
Is there not a difference between taking a ‘literal reading’of scripture, than reading the bible literally. Was it not Martin Luther who came up with the principle of taking a literal reading of scripture (and not just Ted Wilson.-:)?
Of course we are to read the Bible literally.
We literally read the literal words of the translators who literally translated the literal meaning of the literal copies of the literal copies of the literal translations of the literal copies of the literal writings by the literal authors describing their literal experiences using literal words, the whole chain of which was literally inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It is no wonder that Sister White observed that ‘God does not put himself on trial in the Bible.’ It feels truly intuitive of her as well as inspired when Sister White notes that neither the words nor the thoughts themselves of the biblical authors are God’s words or thoughts.
The truth is to be found for the Bible reader in the same way as for the bible author. The Bible is the medium not the message. Inspiration is as reader-dependent as it is author-dependent.
That is why Paul’s famous explanation of scripture to Timothy reads, “All scripture is give by inspiration of God, and is profitable for …”
Scripture is profitable.
And only if the Holy Spirit makes it so.
One reader at a time.
Bill,
Yes, all scripture was given by inspiration of God. Did that inspiration end with the Bible writers? No! That same inspiration, the indwelling and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is promised to all who believe and that presence of the Holy Spirit gives evidence that a person is a believer. So, as much as scripture was given by inspiration, understanding of scripture and how to apply it comes through that same process of inspiration directly from God to each individual. The question is not whether inspiration exists today, but if we will embrace the inspiration God is waiting to give each of us.
Should we take the teaching of the bible yo be true? is a better question. Can God be trusted based on scripture? Does sin results in death?
Should we take the bible literally? Should though shall have no other gods before me should be taken literally? Should we take the resurrection literally?
The bible make sense. Especially in light of the great controversy.
I often wonder why so much of the Bible is so OPAQUE.
The weird “beasts”of Daniel and Revelation, are as grotesque as the
Hindu animal gods (Ganesha, the elephant), and open to multiple interpretations.
The Adventist interpretation of these bizarre symbols in the prophetic books,
has varied over the decades. Who can even surmise if the current interpretation
is final or even correct?
And why did God allow statements in the Bible that resulted in so much human MISERY.
Paul’s obvious condoning of slavery has resulted in millenia of slave owners
justifying their position with resulting misery to millions!
Why was that statement permitted in holy writ ?
Most of Paul’s Epistles are so dense, wordy, and obscure
(one sentence can have multiple sub- phrases) it almost requires
a PhD in English to decipher them!
Furthermore, Paul telling women to submit themselves to their husbands,
produced incalculable spousal abuse and untold misery over two millenia.
The ostracism, and persecution of gays/lesbians over many centuries,
is directly attributable to Pauls intrinsic homophobia ( was he gay?)
So Paul has caused more MISERY than Hitler and Stalin combined.
At least those despots only affected their own generations.
Even Christ was denigrated because He came from Nazareth (though born in Bethlehem)
Why would God not have clarified His lineage in a more forthright and visible manner?
Does God deliberately obscure and confuse the Scriptures? It…
Robin,
That opaqueness turns into clarity when we are guided by the Holy Spirit. Confusion reigns when we are not.
Stop sinning takes a mass lobotomy or brainectomy.
–
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
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2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ;
These examples areare really slow pitches. No doubt churches have/had their share of mentally unbalanced individuals who would actually maim themselves; however,those are not the texts most people struggle with. How about the passage,for example, which says we should loan to those who would borrow and expect nothing in return.
Ever have someone you hardly even know ask to borrow virtually your entire net worth because they think you are a wealthy foreigner? Or how about giving them about~two months of your salary. After all, the sayings of Christ are quite plain on that point. No figurative language,no metaphor, just direct instruction. Ever had someone come at you with a weapon which is more likely to maim than kill you? You going to stand there and absorb the attack, turn the other cheek, if you are able?
How about the simple counsel on adultery. Make a mistake when you are foolishly married at a young age. You going to remain chaste and pure for the rest of your life,knowing Scripture forbids remarriage for the “guilty”party. You think reproductive desires dissipate because your wife left? How does repressing natural reproductive desire work out? Ask the priests who took the passages about keeping vows [celibacy] literally. Better yet, ask some of the kids who they raped.
Who is able to eat (digest) the Old Testament and share it with confidence with those seeking the Almighty God?? Perhaps all before Saul and David is myth, and allegory. Bloodthirsty Gideon’s few stalwarts able to slaughter perhaps a hundred thousand is certainly beyond the scope of military tactical intelligence of the opposing armies. Satan, the father of evil, the Prince of the Earth, would certainly have had a hand in providing input to the narrative of the day. No, no way, can we with confidence, borne of logic and ntelligence, share these stories with a straight face!! We are here. We are real. we were designed by the intelligence of a Cosmic Creator. Could there be more than one Cosmic deities with turf to defend?? Otherwise where did Evil
originate. There is no doubt we are a privileged species, even though we have an average 80 year longevity. But the compelling truth of LOVE is shockingly
truthful. Where did LOVE originate?? Obviously from Cosmic origin. Why was the New Testament brought to Earth?? Because the GOOD GOD is winning the Cosmological war between Good and evil. If true, we have an Almighty God of Love. Will He vanquish this supposedly special creative endeavor on Earth??
i don’t think so, but what is in God’s future plans for us, we must first die to find the answer.
The bible is quite clear that Christ never spoke to the public unless it was in parable. What is a parable, you ask? “A short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. A statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.”
Therefore, word for word or literal may be a stretch, nonetheless, truth or principle or a moral lesson is/was the intent.
Cutting off your arm, if it causes you to sin, may not be taken word for word, but Jesus was conveying to His audience a very dark, yet very vivid image for those who do sin. In other words, you may as well cut off your arm. Can you just picture the faces He saw when He spoke those words to His listeners! I can imagine He must have scared them straight!
I am glad Jesus didn’t include our tongues in this particular illustration. Can we imagine the situation of literalists trying to convince people to cut their tongues for saying something offensive or nasty to others?… LOL
Take it literally then we will be part of Daesh or Isis.
What we don’t realize is we can’t do anything else but read scripture literally. But we each apply it to our own lives, our own experiences, using our mental and physical abilities. If that literal word is calling to me, then I alone decide what to do with it. If I’m running on one spark plug short, I still decide, based on my abilities and I’m judged on my choices in accordance with my abilities.
No body wants to take it literal because nobody, or very few, are without sin. But if you were without sin, you could take it literal and it would not affect you because you are not sinning! You would also not give any regard for your life –the fear goes away when you are right with God. But you refuse to take it literal because you are not right with God; you will have to cut your arm off or take your eye out because these are used to make you sin.
Look at it this way. Jesus showed us the Way of salvation. He left us with not only how to overcome sin, but gave us the power to overcome sin, just as he overcame sin. Yes, sanctification-of becoming holy/perfect, is a work of a lifetime, but you must be moving forward toward that goal throughout your life. There is a way. Jesus is the way! And we all can be holy and perfect if we follow Jesus’ way. How did Jesus overcome Satan’s temptations? It is Written! The key to removing temptation is using the literal Word of God. You can’t change God’s literal Word to figuratively or else it loses its POWER!
JC: Excellent post. The Christian’s #1 problem is overcoming temptation. 90% of churchgoers have never read whole bible. Theologians claim that Christians can not stop sinning thus echo Satan’s lie. God’s true body of Christ will prevail. ( I do not assume it is SDA organization). No reformation will occur in SDA as long as the ministerial secretaries and clergy are left in deception and persist in their defeatism theology.
Putting the emphasis on “overcoming” or gaining control of our thoughts is the wrong method. It’s like “Don’t think of the green monkey.”
Turn it around and have a motto of trying to see the good in all you meet; look for kindness, use kind words and soon you may be seeing the world differently. Placing the emphasis on sins and temptation is all negative.
When parents only see and tell their children “Don’t”do this, don’t do that” rather than “Do good deeds” and “Help others” they will develop a happy character rather than always having to fight their wrong ideas.
Since there are differences of opinions on the subject, I guess the ultimate test then is: Do we obey God or man?
Interesting and thought provoking discussions.
If I’m not understanding Elaine’s comment correctly, please forgive me.
I’m reminded of the Lord’s Prayer “Lead us not into temptation…”.
While raising children to do good and help others builds character, we are still left with the inherent nature of sinning. All have sinned, and before we can accept Christ, we must repent (turn away) and be baptized. But to live that new life, we must find a way to keep us from falling back in sin. Those Jesus healed always followed with “go and sin no more”. Well, how do you sin no more? My last paragraph does offers the key. It is Written. There IS POWER in God’s Word and Satan trembles when God’s Word is used as a sword against him -resist the devil and he will flee. Greater is He (HS) that is in you than he (Satan) that is in the world.
You can’t possess the Spirit’s fruit and keep on sinning! You’re only fooling yourself. We grieve/quench the Spirit if we go on refusing the HS’s convictions. He is our guide and comforter. After we resist temptation, He comforts us. Trust me, you will need comforting.
Love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness all develop character, but let’s not omit SELF-CONTROL. The Spirit plays many roles, but in this context, He is our Helper -to keep us from temptation. He warns us when danger approaches. So let’s not fool ourselves, Satan is to flee from us, NOT we flee from Satan. Put on the armor of God and fight using the Word of God. Face him head on and…
I am not sure how you interpret “literally.” Adventists have never advocated biblical enerrancy, and that sets us apart from fundamentalists. I am concerned that recently the fundamentalists have made inroads into our church.
This has not come just from third-world countries but in the US. Some Adventists may not always embrace tradition-based fundamentalist teachings, but show an unwillingness to progress in our understanding of the Bible and its application of God’s principles today. Too often we lose meaning by dwelling on the literal. You can see this in the traditional Christian’s acceptance of slavery in the past and is at the root of the WO issue.
We only have to look at Jesus’ parable of the Richman and Lazarus to understand this. He taught by stories that revealed truth by meaning. They were stories the people related too and fit their culture but used principles that were everlasting.
Of course, not. Consider some examples:
In Genesis 3 the woman and a snake hold a serious conversation about eating fruits, and God’s prohibitions. Did a snake have the wisdom to strike up a conversation? Could a snake speak?
Genesis also states that God came down to earth to stop a group from building a tower to reach heaven. In fact God says there that if He did not stop thhem they would reach heaven. Which heaven?
In the writings of Moses, it is stated that God instructed Moses to destroy those heathen nations from the land of Canaan.They,perhaps, believed that it was good strategy to destroy all those nations; but did God really order them to exterminate all those peoples?
The story of Balaam and his ass arguing with each other: a talking donkey? All I know of is a braying donkey.
There is also the story of the talking trees: the oak and the bramble.
Then in the New Testament, Jesus told a story saying that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. This literally means that no rich person will, or can be saved!
The story of the rich man and Lazarus. Is Hell so near to Abraham’s Bossom? And what, literally, is Abraham’s Bossom?
All those stories of angels flying, and beasts with talking horns, and horses riding through the air in Revelation. There is clearly nothing literal about these.
The Bible makes use of a host of literary devices to teach valuable lessons. We lose the lessons when we treat these…
We lose these important lessons when we ignore or misunderstand or misuse these literary devices.
Nathaniel, one thing we know for sure (with the rich man and Lazarus), is the one in hell STILL HAS HIS HAND –to dip in the cool water!(LOL)
We can analyse this parable till the cows come home, and everyone will apply differently-in accordance with their own life. That’s the beauty of a parable. It makes you think. But all parables have a point-a lesson, and you can’t ignore the fact that with the rich man/Lazarus, one is on one side and the other on the other side. Which side do you choose to be on? Many of us (Christians) are “Living on the Edge”, and some are on the edge of the edge!
(Luke 16) Learning that it was too late and that his fate was decided, “Then he said, ‘I beg you, therefore, Father, that you would send him (Lazarus) to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may “testify” to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’” It may be too late for him, but it’s not too late for his brothers –he wanted them to be set straight-scared straight, for Lazarus would “testify” about their brother in torment.
But getting back to the original thought on literal. Figurative Vs literal, can only be decided by the individual. But first determine if the scripture you want to take figuratively is not a sound doctrine. If you must make a choice between heresy and schism, always choose heresy. For as a heretic, you are guilty of a wrong opinion. As a schismatic, you have torn and divided the body of Christ. Choose heresy every…
…time.
JC,
If we are born in sin, how can it be removed until we reach heaven? Or do you believe that we must become sinless before we can be saved? Wasn’t Jesus tempted?
All temptations end at the grave.
Hey Elaine, hope you are well. I don’t believe you need me to answer any of these questions. From what I read in your posts, you are intelligent and well versed in Christian theology. But just in case I’m wrong, if you live in the fear of God, which I can only assume, perhaps pray about these questions. I’ll pray for you, too.
I’m actually in fear and greatly puzzled by your questions. I don’t see how you can draw these question out of what I posted? Accordingly, the answer to your questions are all found in the NT.
PS: If you have any scriptural insights on “born in sin” –other than Psalms 51:5, let me know? The Jews don’t acknowledge this for they don’t count a person capable of sin until the age of reason -13 for boys and 12 for girls. As you may know, that’s called Bar or Bat Mitzvah.
Well versed in Christian theology that smacks of antinomianism and rebellion.
It is those who intimately know God, do justly,love mercy, walk humbly, do His will, keep the commandments,walk in the light and claim the death of Jesus for the remission of sins that inherit eternal life.
SDA group is contaminated with heresy & discord by teachers who are wells without water.
FYI: I’m a proud heretic from a long line of “heretics” in the Christian church:
Martin Luther
John Calvin
John Huss (sp)
John Wesley
James White
Ellen White
Plus thousands of others who were persecuted as heretics since Christianity became THE religion.
JC, sin doesn’t seem to be a big deal to God. You ask, he forgives. He must not be much offended if it is that easy for him to ignore it. Being wretched emphasizes “sinfulness,” ignores this happy go lucky God. It is an abject guilt trip with no roots in Christ’s life or teachings. Christ amazed the theologicrats (functioning here as those focused on human “sinfulness”) by his acceptance of people as they were. We are born in God’s love, not sin. We are born human and remain that until we die. Jesus never advised or commanded anyone not to be human. God likes us as we are according to him.
Adventism through the dogmas of 144,000, the investigative judgment and proper commandment observance tends to draw masochistic observers who pay lip service to god as love, but revel in the “sinfulness” of mankind and the propitiation necessary to appease an angry God, Superguy.
Jesus revealed a happy God, one that can’t be known, but only experienced by everyone, now, and for all past ages.
I know, this view of “God” is way too simple. But it is the God that Jesus knew.
When it comes judgement day can we tell God that He didn’t tell us plainly so we could understand what His book is telling us? The argument could be presented that the book said this but we thought it meant something else. I think the Bible must say exactly what it means or God would be on further trial. ( unless you become as children ) I think that quote means trust. If we don’t trust the Bible then what can we trust? God is the owner of science and we may never figure it all out.
Sorry ST, the Bible doesn’t “say” anything. It is print on paper. You decide what it says to fit and form your belief. Are you ready to chop off your offensive arm?
An SDA pastor who has a PHD told me that his greatest fear as a pastor was his audience who would warp truth by taking the bible literally.
I see there are some here who do not believe in the Bible. It’s not an argument. It’s a choice made possible by freedom. In so doing one is also saying they do not believe in God. That’s also made possible by freedom.
God exists outside the Bible. Nor is He limited or dependent on what man has written about Him. According to recorded history, humans have believed in a god in many cultures and described according to their beliefs.
so Elaine, you are saying the Bible is not really to be depended on? Yes God does exist outside the Bible but God would never contradict the Bible as Jesus never did.
I am bothered when I’m told pastors do not even believe in the Bible. If I were in charge of a pastor like that he would need to look elsewhere to make a living.
If one of my workers treated a customer badly it would be the same..seeking employment elsewhere.
One of the most negative aspects of SDA is that they think they are “People of the Book” yet such a small % of the pastors teach bible books using a verse by verse expository approach. They are busing doing theological/therapy damage control troubleshooting or institutional pep talk sermons.
There must be a couple of dozen sermons that are warmed over Sabbath after Sabbath that bore the members to tears. Many who experience Christianity outside the SDA box know that larger non-denom churches have pastors who preach/teach explain the word and not topics.
I feel comfortable inviting someone or mentioning these pastors and hardly ever any SDA pastors.
By the way…what do SDA ministerial directors get paid to do?
Provide support and in-service education for pastors and lay elders.
They may offer that support or education but is it used?
Where is the survey to get review/feedback by pastors & elders on the quality, amount of participation?
Can’t get blood out of a turnip or change a pig to a silk purse. There are incompetents in all professions, but they don’t last long; denominational employees have a far more secure professional life and are only terminated for gross miscounduct, but not always.
What are they training them to do? The annual baptismal rate in N. America is ~8 people, including children, per pastor. The cost per baptism runs into tens of thousands of dollars.
I see pastors carrying paint cans around church during the week or selling multi level vitamins out of their offices. I’m not sure that I’ve sever seen any pastor, except John Carter, do something that an “ordinary” person couldn’t do.
Monte,
It should be noted that in many conferences only a very small percentage of local church elders or deacons attend any of the training offered. My experience with that “training” is that really isn’t training at all, but exhortations to doing the same old thing the same old way while expecting different results. Emphasis on seeking and connecting with the Holy Spirit is a rarity and few of the trainers, be they local pastors or conference leaders, have enough experience with the Holy Spirit or history of Spirit-empowered ministry to inspire anyone to believe what they are teaching actually works. So, why do we wonder that local churches are struggling and failing?
We desperately need a Holy Spirit-driven revolution in the church.
Right now we do not have a pastor. Even when we did we only saw him maybe one time a month. When we would like to visit with a pastor or need one for a funeral ours even when we had one is on vacation or out of the country so we have to hire one to come in.
Saying these things we do have fewer than 20 members who attend so we do the best we can.
I must say the way the conference does things makes the pastors ineffective here. In the long run the church will die.
ST,
At my church we see our pastor about once a month and we’re growing. Why? Because we members have embraced our responsibility to be the people God can use to do His work and make the church grow instead of depending on the pastor to do everything. So, while I do not like the prospect of your church dying, I have little sympathy for you in your apparent resignation to accept that fate and blame it on the conference.
Studies of church growth patterns show that the more churches a pastor has, the faster they grow. Why? Because the members take responsibility for running the church and learning to do things the way God wants them done. So, instead of expecting to continue doing things the way they’ve always been done, I want to challenge you to take responsibility for your church and seek God’s guidance and empowerment so that you can do things his way. You don’t need a pastor to do that. You and others in the church just need to be on your knees seeking God’s guidance and power.
Amazing things happen in churches where the members, though they be few, seek God’s power and guidance and offer themselves as willing servants to do whatever He asks of them.
“Should We Always Take the Bible Literally?”
——-
If the question is “really” asking whether we should “always” take the Bible literally then the answer is – no.
We could also asked “Should We Always Take the Bible Figuratively?” …and the answer would again be – no.
When a question like this comes up it is usually from liberals who use this line of reasoning as a springboard to reinterpret what is actually literal in context. A good example is the seven twenty four hour (even to even) days of creation which includes the seventh day of rest. They prefer an unbiblical millions of years per day position in order to align with the assumptions of Darwinian evolutionary faith.
What is deeply concerning is that there are pastors (elders / overseers) within our ranks who have succumbed to non-Adventist teachings. These of course come “literally” from the liberal ranks.
William,
What do you do for a living? How far do you live from your church?
In my case I live quite some distance away. No one lives in the town where the church is anymore. It’s a nice newer building but all come from a long way on Sabbath. After this large snow storm church was called off. I was to give the sermon but will give it next Sabbath.
We have asked for someone who is retired to come but no takers. The town is less expensive as is only around 600 with no health care local.
Come to Nebraska. Do Gods will. You would be appreciated by all.
Try taking this literally
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Does God approve of WHITE or WOOLY SINS?