Mike Cauley and Dave Weigley Discuss NAD Structure
Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold talks with two innovative leaders in the North American Division (NAD)–Mike Cauley and Dave Weigley–about plans to redesign the organizational structure of the church in the NAD.
Mike Cauley: Is he the officer of the Florida Conference that turned Doug Batchelor away for the planned Heros of Faith series from the SDA Church in Florida? Dave Weigley: Is he the conference president that led the move for women’s ordinaton in the Columbia Union Conference? So, these are the liberal “innovative leaders.” Can we see a roundtable discussion with “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold” that includes an equal number of conservative “innovative leaders.” Would that be too much to ask? Many, if not half, of NAD speakers at San Antonio GC during WO discussion were of the opinion of “No.” So, can we proceed by including all voices at the table?
Cherry
23 November 2015 at 5:25 pm
I am quite happy with the voices we currently have! If you are unhappy with the innovative voices there are other sites you can go to.
jimbob
24 November 2015 at 7:05 pm
The conference leaders do not present any innovative ideas here.
Most business executives and managers are aware of the issues in the interview. Company growth, downsizing and inefficiencies are commonplace topics in business.
The major difference is in a volunteer/501C3 organization…a major/crucial concern is morale/attitude.
Kudjo
27 November 2015 at 9:06 pm
Hi Cherry,
Could you list some of the other sites you mentioned please? This is a sincere request.
Thank you in advance,
KA
Hank Forde
04 December 2015 at 7:38 am
WOW!!! SO you want a closed conversation of only the ideas of the group you agree with. What ever happened with the passage I read in my Bible, “Come let us reason together”? I fear that there is hatred in your liberalism. You appear to hate a person simply because of a statement that calls for a balanced approach. We need to be Christians FIRST Adventist second and never radicalized in our viewpoints.
milton hook
23 November 2015 at 10:26 pm
“Conservative innovative leaders” !!!!???? That’s an oxymoron, isn’t it?
jimbob
24 November 2015 at 6:56 pm
Innovative- (of a person) introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking.(Wide area)
Conservative- holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change , typically in relation to politics or religion.
A conservative person can be innovative on administration & procedures.
sufferingsunfish
25 November 2015 at 1:05 pm
I agree 100% with Jody Johnson. we need more like her who don’t fall for the seductive talk of the left.
LINDA
27 November 2015 at 10:58 am
These two men should be fired! They are trying their best to create division. Mike Cauley is so arrogant! He had no right to tell any pastor that they could not have Doug Batchelor speak in their churches. Also, they have no right to even suggest that the system of tithing be changed. It has worked this way for many years. Why change it if it is not broken. Small churches under their plan would hurt terribly.
Wally Schmidt
23 November 2015 at 12:35 pm
Organizational structures are always based in part on logistics, but they soon become fixed by tradition. The GC/Union/Conference structure was based in part on the challenges of staying in touch in the late 19th century. If we put more emphasis on using 21st century technology to facilitate the organizational needs for close contact, we may well be able to restructure effectively.
William Noel
23 November 2015 at 1:35 pm
One of the ideas they talked about was putting more funds back into the local churches. How about if they stop taking so much from the churches? The tithing model in ancient Israel was that the tithe went to the Levites who were in the area of each tribe and they, in turn, tithed to the tabernacle/temple. A lot of our churches would be far healthier if we funded church administration in the same way.
Sam Geli
23 November 2015 at 1:36 pm
Jody Johnson on November 23, 2015 at 10:32 am said:
…So, these are the liberal “innovative leaders.” Can we see a roundtable discussion with “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold” that includes an equal number of conservative “innovative leaders.” Would that be too much to ask?”
Yes, Jody. Why would anyone want persons participating who insist on doing it their way because they are branded as “conservative” and are desperately hanging on to traditional, historical methodology, we’ve always done it this way Adventist thinking, about our church structure.
You did a great job Loren! Many good and innovative ideas are needed. As a Chaplain serving as a consultant to several Interfaith organizations and volunteer committees I often get asked how organizational structure impacts churches that are reviewing their efforts for innovation, performance and volunteer morale. Because so many religious organizations think that organizational structure simply defines how a church or volunteer group is laid out, several organizations find themselves in disarray, creating poor culture in the workplace. We should realize that the our church organizational structure determines where the authority comes from, who makes the decisions, who handles a specific job, who reports who to whom and who is held liable in case of shortcomings and failures.
It all has to do with accountability. Let’s be creative!
Jody Johnson
23 November 2015 at 11:48 pm
Round table discussion with Loren Seibold that includes an equal number of conservative and liberal innovative leaders appears to be too much to ask (Sam Geli, Cherry, milton hook). Is this the same attitude that is in the news from college campuses as students protest their “safe space” being invaded with opinions other than what is in their heads? My IP was banned from Spectrum site. I guess I invaded Spectrum’s safe space, then was kicked into outerspace. I get the idea from replies that AToday wants its safe space also — as both purport to report SDA news. I thought fair and balanced was a more innovative idea than what is offered with this interview on a public viewable website. Humm, interesting atmosphere going around . . . “war on free speech” as the Washington Post reported: censorship, pure and simple, going on in America today?
Charity
24 November 2015 at 4:41 am
Jody, these are the sort that wish to fight for some cause, any cause (other than HIS); they are addicted. They discriminate at every turn, to continue and even create new causes; just to get their next “fix”.
Maybe such Charitable Organizations are in disarray because those that advise fail to understand Stewardship of HIS resources; their own chaos reflecting such.
They want inclusion and ideas, but discriminatory not from those with Faith, Conviction and Wisdom granted from HIM; it does not “fit” their needs or supply their “fix”. I think they are unable to read their BIBLES; profiling and branding others as “conservatives”, while we can read the impact of vile liberals (Isaiah 32).
We now have massive organizational structures in guise of Charity; all wanting hand outs and to be paid. We pay millions (a lot from our tax dollars) to management, who hire fund raisers; with nothing left for Charity.
The US took possession of provider-ship in the needy many decades ago because of failure in Stewardship; only leaving the Churches to preach the word as Charity, and failing that. Now within such liberal promotion we discriminate and provide more, than those working and paying taxes have and can provide; while wanting to create new avenues that fail Charity. Yet many in the US are still in need; with no funds to provide. Absolute perpetual failure in Wisdom and Charity. Yes, we can no longer afford creative accountability.
Sam Geli
24 November 2015 at 10:39 am
The discussion was not held in with “round table” format trying to get a concensus or understanding of all possible proposals or ideas on the any table. Loren, set the stage by describing the whole thing as “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold talks with two innovative leaders in the North American Division (NAD)–Mike Cauley and Dave Weigley–about plans to redesign the organizational structure of the church in the NAD.” I understood from all this to mean that both gentlemen being interviewed had innovative ideas to present at a meeting for which they were invited. They (nor Loren) for that matter were under no obligation to present a differing points of view, that would have been fine for another meeting. If Loren and others had said that this discussion was intended to highlight or present all sides, then I and others would have expected something different.
It is fascinating to me how some conservative persons in our church who have hardly ever provided for other points of view in many forums, are nevertheless the first in line to complain, that their side has not received equal time. At a recent open discussion about sexuality in a church a young person asked about transgender issues and was promptly asked to leave. The moderator explained that “deviant” behavior was not to be “promoted”.
“Fair and balanced” doesn’t obligate anyone to present all sides or be “complete and comprehensive” in the presentation of ideas
Charity
25 November 2015 at 2:57 am
Then maybe we do need a round table for these two failing divisions; HIS round table? Do you think that continuing the same failed concepts and mentality will solve anything?
Why are you the first to complain? Should we not be “complete and comprehensive” when dealing with others Souls? How can one be “fair and balanced” without presenting all sides; especially HIS SIDE? You provide nothing, solve nothing and fail; is that your point of view? Bang your head against the wall and then complain your head hurts?
The concepts are not that complicated. The Government feeds, clothes and educates the living now; removing that complicated burden. There are very few other avenues of Charity now, other than spreading the Word; and then fail to do that. Are those assembled and you not the problems? Do they represent the Church in such assemblies?
Are these folks not elected to represent the Body and its members? Was there some kind of political campaign in such election? I see none of this serving HIM, representing the pain and agony in HIS Blood Sacrifice or any positive useful value to the Church or anyone in any way. Just a bunch of individuals, wishing to continue foolish individual ideologies; failing HIM.
Who turned the Word of GOD into a lie? Who serves the creature instead of the CREATOR? HIS wisdom is far beyond ours; but not this. It is explained in the BIBLE for those that wish to read and accept HIM.
sufferingsunfish
25 November 2015 at 1:23 pm
“It is fascinating to me how some conservative persons in our church who have hardly ever provided for other points of view in many forums, are nevertheless the first in line to complain, that their side has not received equal time.”
How many times I have seen your views expressed on various sites, Sam, I can’t tell you. Are you suggesting that others be denied that privilege since you are not in agreement with them?
Sam Geli
26 November 2015 at 4:38 pm
Never! to answer your question.
I am sorry if my proclivity for blogging on “various sites” has a negative impact on others. Judy was objecting to Loren’s methodology in writing the article. If what she wants is equal time for all when new ideas are being discussed, then obviously the sheer number of views and ideas will even exceed my “proclivities” in number.
Let’s “work on” our brother Loren Seibold, the real “culprit” here, who insisted on being clear and authentic in presenting this wise article.
Charity
26 November 2015 at 6:01 pm
“Let’s “work on” our brother Loren Seibold, the real “culprit” here, who insisted on being clear and authentic in presenting this wise article.”
Is this not your opinion SAM? Do they not follow you wherever you go? Maybe you can replace those with HIM. Just ask.
Just maybe by chance; HIS guidance may be better than yours, Loren’s and all the rest of those involved or put together? Just a thought.
You wish to fight for worldly rights, yet discriminate against Jody (not Judy)? Does her conviction and voice mean that much less that yours? How about the conviction and voice of the rest of the multitude?
Sam Geli
27 November 2015 at 10:21 am
Charity, I agree 100% with your diagnosis about me. You said: “You wish to fight for worldly rights,..”
But on the rest of it I disagree 100%. You said: “…yet discriminate against Jody (not Judy)?” The words “discrimination” and “against” are pejorative and I do not know Jody and have no negative personal feeling against her or her views which she is entitled to have. You are also entitled to present as you have your points of view.
The question you pose, at the end of your statement blog, is the one where I feel bad that I’ve been misunderstood. You said: “Does her conviction and voice mean that much less that yours? How about the conviction and voice of the rest of the multitude?”
All of my life I have defended persons who have shared, taught, and believed in their “convictions and voice”. Even when I strongly disagreed with them. It’s part of my DNA. I got beat up in elementary school for defending my Jehovah Witness friend who would not pledge allegiance to the flag. Now that I am 65 I spoke up for a stranger at the DMV who was sarcastically told to return to his country of origin when he asked for the written test in a language other than English.
I share this with the hope that you will know that whatever disdain and reproach I deserve, (and I get it wrong all the time) I have, and will never knowingly believe or act to silence or diminish Jody’s, Loren’s, or your, “convictions and voice”.
Charity
27 November 2015 at 2:21 pm
Sam, you hold our hearts through these trying times. Please use what is learned to appeal to the Souls of others. The many lost need us more than ever; nondiscriminatory.
jimbob
24 November 2015 at 6:48 pm
10 minutes of mostly nothing, summed up at the last 30 seconds.
Motivation – change will come when they are hurting for $$$$$
They will be hurting as the tithe base decreases from the death of tithe giving members and conflict dissatisfaction member attrition.
The crucial issues are related to communication. Lack of communication between paid and volunteer members, between clergy and laity and between clergy and conference.
AND
Communication to members of superficial sermons and Sabbath School lesson information.
I dare the two conference presidents to institute surveys to get feedback from members and pastors on their concerns, thoughts, AND current level of involvement with Christianity.
sufferingsunfish
25 November 2015 at 1:08 pm
I guess you can call Cauley “innovative” when he discouraged Pastor Doug Batchelor from entering Florida with a message of hope. What a charade.
sufferingsunfish
25 November 2015 at 1:15 pm
Sounds to me as though Cauley wants more power for his office. How can any even quasi SDA organization admire Weigley who has led in defying the will of the church?
Bill Sorensen
26 November 2015 at 9:21 am
You can “redesign the structure” until the cows come home. There is so much false doctrine taught in the SDA church, that no amount of “structure altering” will help or correct the problem. So the ultimate problem is not structure. It is false doctrine. The fact is, almost any structure could be serviceable to accomplish the final goal if bible truth was advocated and supported within that structure.
The problem will not be cured by human fiddling and diddling anymore than the evils in civil society will be corrected by some generic social gospel implemented with the civil society of today in the USA. When the government not only allows gambling, but uses it to make money was one major move in the corrupting of America. And now the Gay agenda is in full force and even in our church it is beating the door down and demanding acceptance by way of the false gospel advocated in the SDA church today. WO vs. male headship is child’s play compared to the blatant evil tolerated in the church.
The structure is rapidly becoming useless for God to accomplish His original intended goal and to “tweak” the structure is totally missing the point. We have rebellion everywhere, and it won’t be cured by any re-organization.
jimbob
26 November 2015 at 12:40 pm
Christianity is becoming more pagan churchianity every week. Most don’t know what the gospel is/means. The SDA church is basically a Sabbath, different hell, health tips marketing religious organization with inept pastors who present ambiguous, superficial, religious clichés while they verbally abuse members, discouraging them by telling them how bad they are. Fanaticism is at pandemic levels. I see these few conference officials and semi-animated pastors give these cheapo pep talks and outreach/mission callings who need a reality check.
All pastors need to record their sermons and play it back to themselves and every 3 seconds ask to what they hear… “WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN”?
William Noel
01 December 2015 at 5:45 am
Jimbob,
Another question they should be asking is: “How does a person apply this in their life?” Too many sermons are long on theory and theology but short on life-tested applicability. This is where personal testimony is critical in gospel presentations because it gives a real life example of how to apply what is being taught and measures whether or not it actually works.
Hansen
27 November 2015 at 12:00 am
Most people will not vote themselves out of a job; nor will they vote their friend out of a job, as long as he returns the favor. The SDA papacy is really no different than the Roman one in that sense i.e., like mules scratching each other. These clergymen should be driven from the temple of God with a whip of cords. That won’t stop the true shepherds from doing gospel work. The others can get honest jobs and live by their own sweat instead off the backs of others. Until that happens, Adventism will continue to circle the drain until it disappears into the abyss, at least in the USA, I hope.
Sam Geli
27 November 2015 at 9:54 am
sufferingsunfish on November 25, 2015 at 1:08 pm said: “I guess you can call Cauley “innovative” when he discouraged Pastor Doug Batchelor from entering Florida with a message of hope. What a charade.”
Is this the real reason you are so upset? Over the years I’ve seen and heard Brother Doug Batchelor find a way to turn these slights into increases in his fundraising. So it comes down to feelings or anger and resentment because someone might have rejected your friend. I may not feel the same way but I can understand that. Just be clear that Loren’s video was about innovation and creative alternatives and not anti-Batchelor.
Bill Sorensen
27 November 2015 at 2:02 pm
Without a doubt, Sam, his credibility rapidly goes out the window with conservatives. But as I have stated many times, the liberal agenda is “winning” in the church conflicts and will probably continue to do so. So your statement “Just be clear that Loren’s video was about innovation and creative alternatives and not anti-Batchelor”, is not the conclusion of the whole matter. Our spirituality is determined by our actions, not our words.
We just as well admit there will be no “unity” based on the agenda the church has adopted. The division will become more and more intense as each side defends their view, its meaning, and importance. I know many would like to pretend there is no real “importance” to the difference. But they have their “head in the sand” with a lot of wishful thinking.
Elements on both sides have strong convictions about the “importance” of the issues and will not relent for the sake of some political unity to “keep the church together.” The church is split spiritually. It will split physically. When, how and in what format this will take place will be seen in the near future. But the final result is obvious and non-negotiable.
All that is left is for honest people to admit the reality and then carefully decide which side is right and where they personally will stand. The liberals will probably keep the church and all the money. But not necessarily.
Hansen
28 November 2015 at 5:06 am
I’m glad that someone credible is willing to go on record as antiBachelor. Doug’s theology is absolutely toxic; I’m not referring to his WO nonsense.
sufferingsunfish
03 December 2015 at 8:18 am
Most unfortunate that a person who claims a background in clergy would be so demonstrably sarcastic and judgmental.
Robert Hoyt
27 November 2015 at 10:17 am
You have a president in Florida that not so long ago chose to fire 50 pastors on the spot. Now blatantly announces he is ignoring the General Conference decision not to ordain women pastors. He appears every week on the Hope Channel and reaffirms his decision to the world.
Chuck Randall
27 November 2015 at 4:18 pm
Much of the discussion seems to miss the point that the church leaders are realizing the local church needs more resources to carry out its mission. For example we are to feed the hungry and care for those around us in addition to sharing the joy of our salvation. I applaud those leaders who are asking the questions of how we should be organized in the 21st century. Hopefully, we will implement some efficiencies before the organization implodes.
Roger Metzger
28 November 2015 at 8:17 am
I reject are tradition for tradition’s sake and innovation for innovation’s sake.
Much of what is being represented as “discussion” is actually people talking past each other. Much of that problem, in turn, is because of a failure to examine definitions.
It seems to me that we need to start with acknowledging that “the church” consists of believers and NO organization is “the church”.
Next, that the gospel INCLUDES who Jesus is, salvation by grace alone AND the nature of the coming kingdom. The first we share with adherents of the Roman Church and with other protestants. The second we share with protestants. The third is (so far as I know) not being emphasized by any other organization even close to the size of the SdA organization.
The organization CAN BE a means to an end–a tool of the church. But the GOAL dare not be simply increasing the size of the organization. The goal is the promulgation of the gospel, so the question should be, “How can that be most efficiently accomplished?”
Conversion is the miracle whereby a person’s trust is transferred from what he thought he could do to save himself to what the Lord does to save us. Conversion rather than denominational membership should be the goal.
The “message” about the nature of the kingdom needs to focus on WHY adventists understand the nature of the kingdom differently than futurist do.
ramonda stanard
28 November 2015 at 10:35 am
NAD: Organizing the structure, does this also include the several layers of management? In my 26 years of healthcare I experienced four redesigns. I was always blessed, because I was willing to take on more responsibilities. Am now retired, and with the Our Precious Lords help,I made it through the redesigns.
I am pleased that we are looking at redsigning the structure. We are way past due.
Thank you,
Roni – Clearwater,FL
Terry Rice
30 November 2015 at 12:07 pm
Thanks to our current structure, our NAD church has successfully organized to reach “into all the world”, and sadly with a deficiency reaching local neighborhoods. Now there is a need for both the international Church and the NAD to do local ministry for the poor and marginalized, of pastoral healing and restoration, 10 pastoral deeds for every theological word preached, for young adult/youth, and for our cities — all within an incarnational approach, using our worldly and heavenly identities, just like Jesus.
William Noel
30 November 2015 at 1:22 pm
Terry,
What the church needs is less administration and more members discovering the power of the Holy Spirit so they can do the work instead of depending on pastors to do it.
Charity
01 December 2015 at 3:09 am
Matthew 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Maybe time to prune and make good trees?
Charity
01 December 2015 at 3:14 am
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Maybe preaching and appreciating those that preach the Word of GOD would be a good place to start; since HE commands it? Maybe we stop relying on other bright ideas and follow HIM?
sufferingsunfish
01 December 2015 at 4:17 am
The Lord has marked out His way of working. As a people we are not to imitate and fall in with the Salvation Army methods. This is not the work the Lord has given us to do. Neither is it our work to condemn them and speak harsh words against them. There are precious, self-sacrificing souls in the Salvation Army. We are to treat them kindly. There are in the Army honest souls, sincerely serving the Lord, who will see greater light, and advance to the acceptance of all truth. Those in the Salvation Army are trying to save the neglected, down-trodden ones. Discourage them not. Let them do that class of work by their own methods and in their own way. The Lord has plainly stated what Seventh-day Adventists are to do. Camp meetings are to be appointed and a series of tent meetings held. All who can should work in connection with the camp meeting. There should be no hesitancy in preaching the truth applicable for this time. A decided testimony is to be borne. The discourses should be so simple that children can understand them.
Kress Collection
William Noel
01 December 2015 at 5:41 am
sufferingsunfish,
We’re supposed to love people, but not fall in love with the methods of the Salvation Army? Do you even know what they do? Adventists have gone so far off into arguing about doctrines and thinking preaching sermons are the magic panacea for curing the sins of the world that we’ve almost completely lost sight of what it means to actually minister God’s love to others. So there is much we could learn from the Salvation Army.
sufferingsunfish
01 December 2015 at 6:31 am
Many liberals, represented in both Spectrum and AToday, are energetically attempting to divert attention from the gospel to making the church a welfare instrument engaged in social work so that committed SDAS are finding it necessary to employ precious resources in defense of the faith of our fathers.
Yes, individuals should commit to feeding the poor, etc. but that is not the task of the corporate body of the SDA church. It is most unfortunate that debate about women in ministry all too often, especially within the NAD hierarchy, a women’s role as wife and mother is grossly neglected. The NAD leadership is too committed to a unilateral agenda and is wasting money on a totally unnecessary move to other quarters.
William Noel
01 December 2015 at 10:45 am
Sufferingsunfish,
Read the exhortation of Jesus to the disciples in the upper room as recorded by John and ask who in the church is doing any of the things he was telling them to do. The answer: very few. Active ministry that relieves the suffering of others is the most powerful way any of us can demonstrate God’s love and draw the attention of others to Him so they will want to learn about Him. But people like you keep talking about teaching first and even say we should ignore the ministries He told us to be doing. That’s exactly backward from the method Jesus demonstrated where He ministered to their needs first and taught LAST. But you think it should be the other way around and that’s exactly why the church is in trouble.
Ministering to the needs of others and relieving their suffering is the Gospel in action and the most powerful tool we have for teaching others about God.
William Noel
01 December 2015 at 5:37 am
The biggest problem in the church is we have so many people who are focused on preaching doctrinal sermons, quoting Bible verses and arguing about theology that they’re not demonstrating the love of our redeeming God in their actions. Following Him requires that we become involved in actually ministering God’s love instead of just talking about it.
What are you actually doing to minister God’s love? Is it producing results that you can see in unbelievers becoming believers and people joining the church? If not, you’re not doing what God wants you to be doing.
Charity
02 December 2015 at 4:39 am
John 17:
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Maybe you should compare the prayer of CHRIST in the upper room, that you referenced above, to your statements? But you seem to hate anyone quoting the BIBLE.
The multitude continues. The Church grows; except the areas that you and those like you are involved. The other denominations in your areas that promote Sound Doctrine are growing. Kind of hard to overlook or explain away the obvious; as others that understand Love are commanded to intervene.
William Noel
02 December 2015 at 6:34 am
Charity,
My local church is growing and I am contributing to that growth by ministering God’s love in ways that improve lives. So your assertion that the church is not growing where I am is utterly false. But I can show you plenty of places where churches are either not growing or even dying and what they have in common is people like you who spew Bible texts and the theory that all you have to do is quote Bible verses and preach sermons and people will be changed, but can’t show any results from it. Where is your experience in actually ministering God’s redeeming love? Where is your experience in soul winning? Where is your testimony about God working in your life? Until you can show us that, you’re just beating the wind and showing us why so many churches are dying.
Charity
02 December 2015 at 3:39 pm
Then by all means please prove your theory that teaching the BIBLE and Sound Doctrine is detrimental to the Church. Provide proof and statistics of those areas. Pew research statistically provides data otherwise in Sound Doctrine of those both increasing and decreasing.
You individual ideology is base solely on your observations of your Church? Are you responsible for the growth? Maybe you should ask those of strong conviction in your Church, if they believe in the BIBLE? Maybe you should ask yourself what part you play?
Remember GOD Calls, Draws and Saves; not us. Many are Called, but few are chosen; not even our call or classification there.
We do not beat in wind, we serve HIM as our fathers before us; for millennia. We are privileged to live within their convictions and covenant; reaping their Blessings from HIM. We know and understand that all credit and praise belong to HIM. We are no longer children; when can we expect you to grow up? We would suggest soon.
sufferingsunfish
03 December 2015 at 8:21 am
My last comment about sarcasm and judgmentalism was intended for Sam Geli, and any others who are so inclined.
There are few in the church pews who ever speak to anyone outside of the congregation they represent. Unless you are aged and physically impaired, the Lord exhorts us to go out in the hiways and byways, and invite them in. Show your love for these precious souls of the Lord Jesus Christ, as He demonstrated each day of His life, as an example of your caring. Love them and be concerned for every single one who will respond to your love, the same love you hold for our Saviour. This is the action that William is speaking of. The poor, the weak, the homeless, the widows, those needing help in their daily lives, in their habitat where they reside in your community. They may need help in many ways. Do it for L O V E, the Saviour
gives you. The Holy Spirit will give you words of compassion to speak, as you seek to love and care for your neighbors. This is the love that William is speaking of, and of the program he is involved with, in seeking out those with needs, and organizing his church’s response, avtively leading the way. Now adays the high ways and by ways are your local neighborhoods. You know them better than outsiders. They are where your love is needed.
Mike Cauley: Is he the officer of the Florida Conference that turned Doug Batchelor away for the planned Heros of Faith series from the SDA Church in Florida? Dave Weigley: Is he the conference president that led the move for women’s ordinaton in the Columbia Union Conference? So, these are the liberal “innovative leaders.” Can we see a roundtable discussion with “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold” that includes an equal number of conservative “innovative leaders.” Would that be too much to ask? Many, if not half, of NAD speakers at San Antonio GC during WO discussion were of the opinion of “No.” So, can we proceed by including all voices at the table?
I am quite happy with the voices we currently have! If you are unhappy with the innovative voices there are other sites you can go to.
The conference leaders do not present any innovative ideas here.
Most business executives and managers are aware of the issues in the interview. Company growth, downsizing and inefficiencies are commonplace topics in business.
The major difference is in a volunteer/501C3 organization…a major/crucial concern is morale/attitude.
Hi Cherry,
Could you list some of the other sites you mentioned please? This is a sincere request.
Thank you in advance,
KA
WOW!!! SO you want a closed conversation of only the ideas of the group you agree with. What ever happened with the passage I read in my Bible, “Come let us reason together”? I fear that there is hatred in your liberalism. You appear to hate a person simply because of a statement that calls for a balanced approach. We need to be Christians FIRST Adventist second and never radicalized in our viewpoints.
“Conservative innovative leaders” !!!!???? That’s an oxymoron, isn’t it?
Innovative- (of a person) introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking.(Wide area)
Conservative- holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change , typically in relation to politics or religion.
A conservative person can be innovative on administration & procedures.
I agree 100% with Jody Johnson. we need more like her who don’t fall for the seductive talk of the left.
These two men should be fired! They are trying their best to create division. Mike Cauley is so arrogant! He had no right to tell any pastor that they could not have Doug Batchelor speak in their churches. Also, they have no right to even suggest that the system of tithing be changed. It has worked this way for many years. Why change it if it is not broken. Small churches under their plan would hurt terribly.
Organizational structures are always based in part on logistics, but they soon become fixed by tradition. The GC/Union/Conference structure was based in part on the challenges of staying in touch in the late 19th century. If we put more emphasis on using 21st century technology to facilitate the organizational needs for close contact, we may well be able to restructure effectively.
One of the ideas they talked about was putting more funds back into the local churches. How about if they stop taking so much from the churches? The tithing model in ancient Israel was that the tithe went to the Levites who were in the area of each tribe and they, in turn, tithed to the tabernacle/temple. A lot of our churches would be far healthier if we funded church administration in the same way.
Jody Johnson on November 23, 2015 at 10:32 am said:
…So, these are the liberal “innovative leaders.” Can we see a roundtable discussion with “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold” that includes an equal number of conservative “innovative leaders.” Would that be too much to ask?”
Yes, Jody. Why would anyone want persons participating who insist on doing it their way because they are branded as “conservative” and are desperately hanging on to traditional, historical methodology, we’ve always done it this way Adventist thinking, about our church structure.
You did a great job Loren! Many good and innovative ideas are needed. As a Chaplain serving as a consultant to several Interfaith organizations and volunteer committees I often get asked how organizational structure impacts churches that are reviewing their efforts for innovation, performance and volunteer morale. Because so many religious organizations think that organizational structure simply defines how a church or volunteer group is laid out, several organizations find themselves in disarray, creating poor culture in the workplace. We should realize that the our church organizational structure determines where the authority comes from, who makes the decisions, who handles a specific job, who reports who to whom and who is held liable in case of shortcomings and failures.
It all has to do with accountability. Let’s be creative!
Round table discussion with Loren Seibold that includes an equal number of conservative and liberal innovative leaders appears to be too much to ask (Sam Geli, Cherry, milton hook). Is this the same attitude that is in the news from college campuses as students protest their “safe space” being invaded with opinions other than what is in their heads? My IP was banned from Spectrum site. I guess I invaded Spectrum’s safe space, then was kicked into outerspace. I get the idea from replies that AToday wants its safe space also — as both purport to report SDA news. I thought fair and balanced was a more innovative idea than what is offered with this interview on a public viewable website. Humm, interesting atmosphere going around . . . “war on free speech” as the Washington Post reported: censorship, pure and simple, going on in America today?
Jody, these are the sort that wish to fight for some cause, any cause (other than HIS); they are addicted. They discriminate at every turn, to continue and even create new causes; just to get their next “fix”.
Maybe such Charitable Organizations are in disarray because those that advise fail to understand Stewardship of HIS resources; their own chaos reflecting such.
They want inclusion and ideas, but discriminatory not from those with Faith, Conviction and Wisdom granted from HIM; it does not “fit” their needs or supply their “fix”. I think they are unable to read their BIBLES; profiling and branding others as “conservatives”, while we can read the impact of vile liberals (Isaiah 32).
We now have massive organizational structures in guise of Charity; all wanting hand outs and to be paid. We pay millions (a lot from our tax dollars) to management, who hire fund raisers; with nothing left for Charity.
The US took possession of provider-ship in the needy many decades ago because of failure in Stewardship; only leaving the Churches to preach the word as Charity, and failing that. Now within such liberal promotion we discriminate and provide more, than those working and paying taxes have and can provide; while wanting to create new avenues that fail Charity. Yet many in the US are still in need; with no funds to provide. Absolute perpetual failure in Wisdom and Charity. Yes, we can no longer afford creative accountability.
The discussion was not held in with “round table” format trying to get a concensus or understanding of all possible proposals or ideas on the any table. Loren, set the stage by describing the whole thing as “Adventist Today Executive Editor Loren Seibold talks with two innovative leaders in the North American Division (NAD)–Mike Cauley and Dave Weigley–about plans to redesign the organizational structure of the church in the NAD.” I understood from all this to mean that both gentlemen being interviewed had innovative ideas to present at a meeting for which they were invited. They (nor Loren) for that matter were under no obligation to present a differing points of view, that would have been fine for another meeting. If Loren and others had said that this discussion was intended to highlight or present all sides, then I and others would have expected something different.
It is fascinating to me how some conservative persons in our church who have hardly ever provided for other points of view in many forums, are nevertheless the first in line to complain, that their side has not received equal time. At a recent open discussion about sexuality in a church a young person asked about transgender issues and was promptly asked to leave. The moderator explained that “deviant” behavior was not to be “promoted”.
“Fair and balanced” doesn’t obligate anyone to present all sides or be “complete and comprehensive” in the presentation of ideas
Then maybe we do need a round table for these two failing divisions; HIS round table? Do you think that continuing the same failed concepts and mentality will solve anything?
Why are you the first to complain? Should we not be “complete and comprehensive” when dealing with others Souls? How can one be “fair and balanced” without presenting all sides; especially HIS SIDE? You provide nothing, solve nothing and fail; is that your point of view? Bang your head against the wall and then complain your head hurts?
The concepts are not that complicated. The Government feeds, clothes and educates the living now; removing that complicated burden. There are very few other avenues of Charity now, other than spreading the Word; and then fail to do that. Are those assembled and you not the problems? Do they represent the Church in such assemblies?
Are these folks not elected to represent the Body and its members? Was there some kind of political campaign in such election? I see none of this serving HIM, representing the pain and agony in HIS Blood Sacrifice or any positive useful value to the Church or anyone in any way. Just a bunch of individuals, wishing to continue foolish individual ideologies; failing HIM.
Who turned the Word of GOD into a lie? Who serves the creature instead of the CREATOR? HIS wisdom is far beyond ours; but not this. It is explained in the BIBLE for those that wish to read and accept HIM.
“It is fascinating to me how some conservative persons in our church who have hardly ever provided for other points of view in many forums, are nevertheless the first in line to complain, that their side has not received equal time.”
How many times I have seen your views expressed on various sites, Sam, I can’t tell you. Are you suggesting that others be denied that privilege since you are not in agreement with them?
Never! to answer your question.
I am sorry if my proclivity for blogging on “various sites” has a negative impact on others. Judy was objecting to Loren’s methodology in writing the article. If what she wants is equal time for all when new ideas are being discussed, then obviously the sheer number of views and ideas will even exceed my “proclivities” in number.
Let’s “work on” our brother Loren Seibold, the real “culprit” here, who insisted on being clear and authentic in presenting this wise article.
“Let’s “work on” our brother Loren Seibold, the real “culprit” here, who insisted on being clear and authentic in presenting this wise article.”
Is this not your opinion SAM? Do they not follow you wherever you go? Maybe you can replace those with HIM. Just ask.
Just maybe by chance; HIS guidance may be better than yours, Loren’s and all the rest of those involved or put together? Just a thought.
You wish to fight for worldly rights, yet discriminate against Jody (not Judy)? Does her conviction and voice mean that much less that yours? How about the conviction and voice of the rest of the multitude?
Charity, I agree 100% with your diagnosis about me. You said: “You wish to fight for worldly rights,..”
But on the rest of it I disagree 100%. You said: “…yet discriminate against Jody (not Judy)?” The words “discrimination” and “against” are pejorative and I do not know Jody and have no negative personal feeling against her or her views which she is entitled to have. You are also entitled to present as you have your points of view.
The question you pose, at the end of your statement blog, is the one where I feel bad that I’ve been misunderstood. You said: “Does her conviction and voice mean that much less that yours? How about the conviction and voice of the rest of the multitude?”
All of my life I have defended persons who have shared, taught, and believed in their “convictions and voice”. Even when I strongly disagreed with them. It’s part of my DNA. I got beat up in elementary school for defending my Jehovah Witness friend who would not pledge allegiance to the flag. Now that I am 65 I spoke up for a stranger at the DMV who was sarcastically told to return to his country of origin when he asked for the written test in a language other than English.
I share this with the hope that you will know that whatever disdain and reproach I deserve, (and I get it wrong all the time) I have, and will never knowingly believe or act to silence or diminish Jody’s, Loren’s, or your, “convictions and voice”.
Sam, you hold our hearts through these trying times. Please use what is learned to appeal to the Souls of others. The many lost need us more than ever; nondiscriminatory.
10 minutes of mostly nothing, summed up at the last 30 seconds.
Motivation – change will come when they are hurting for $$$$$
They will be hurting as the tithe base decreases from the death of tithe giving members and conflict dissatisfaction member attrition.
The crucial issues are related to communication. Lack of communication between paid and volunteer members, between clergy and laity and between clergy and conference.
AND
Communication to members of superficial sermons and Sabbath School lesson information.
I dare the two conference presidents to institute surveys to get feedback from members and pastors on their concerns, thoughts, AND current level of involvement with Christianity.
I guess you can call Cauley “innovative” when he discouraged Pastor Doug Batchelor from entering Florida with a message of hope. What a charade.
Sounds to me as though Cauley wants more power for his office. How can any even quasi SDA organization admire Weigley who has led in defying the will of the church?
You can “redesign the structure” until the cows come home. There is so much false doctrine taught in the SDA church, that no amount of “structure altering” will help or correct the problem. So the ultimate problem is not structure. It is false doctrine. The fact is, almost any structure could be serviceable to accomplish the final goal if bible truth was advocated and supported within that structure.
The problem will not be cured by human fiddling and diddling anymore than the evils in civil society will be corrected by some generic social gospel implemented with the civil society of today in the USA. When the government not only allows gambling, but uses it to make money was one major move in the corrupting of America. And now the Gay agenda is in full force and even in our church it is beating the door down and demanding acceptance by way of the false gospel advocated in the SDA church today. WO vs. male headship is child’s play compared to the blatant evil tolerated in the church.
The structure is rapidly becoming useless for God to accomplish His original intended goal and to “tweak” the structure is totally missing the point. We have rebellion everywhere, and it won’t be cured by any re-organization.
Christianity is becoming more pagan churchianity every week. Most don’t know what the gospel is/means. The SDA church is basically a Sabbath, different hell, health tips marketing religious organization with inept pastors who present ambiguous, superficial, religious clichés while they verbally abuse members, discouraging them by telling them how bad they are. Fanaticism is at pandemic levels. I see these few conference officials and semi-animated pastors give these cheapo pep talks and outreach/mission callings who need a reality check.
All pastors need to record their sermons and play it back to themselves and every 3 seconds ask to what they hear… “WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN”?
Jimbob,
Another question they should be asking is: “How does a person apply this in their life?” Too many sermons are long on theory and theology but short on life-tested applicability. This is where personal testimony is critical in gospel presentations because it gives a real life example of how to apply what is being taught and measures whether or not it actually works.
Most people will not vote themselves out of a job; nor will they vote their friend out of a job, as long as he returns the favor. The SDA papacy is really no different than the Roman one in that sense i.e., like mules scratching each other. These clergymen should be driven from the temple of God with a whip of cords. That won’t stop the true shepherds from doing gospel work. The others can get honest jobs and live by their own sweat instead off the backs of others. Until that happens, Adventism will continue to circle the drain until it disappears into the abyss, at least in the USA, I hope.
sufferingsunfish on November 25, 2015 at 1:08 pm said: “I guess you can call Cauley “innovative” when he discouraged Pastor Doug Batchelor from entering Florida with a message of hope. What a charade.”
Is this the real reason you are so upset? Over the years I’ve seen and heard Brother Doug Batchelor find a way to turn these slights into increases in his fundraising. So it comes down to feelings or anger and resentment because someone might have rejected your friend. I may not feel the same way but I can understand that. Just be clear that Loren’s video was about innovation and creative alternatives and not anti-Batchelor.
Without a doubt, Sam, his credibility rapidly goes out the window with conservatives. But as I have stated many times, the liberal agenda is “winning” in the church conflicts and will probably continue to do so. So your statement “Just be clear that Loren’s video was about innovation and creative alternatives and not anti-Batchelor”, is not the conclusion of the whole matter. Our spirituality is determined by our actions, not our words.
We just as well admit there will be no “unity” based on the agenda the church has adopted. The division will become more and more intense as each side defends their view, its meaning, and importance. I know many would like to pretend there is no real “importance” to the difference. But they have their “head in the sand” with a lot of wishful thinking.
Elements on both sides have strong convictions about the “importance” of the issues and will not relent for the sake of some political unity to “keep the church together.” The church is split spiritually. It will split physically. When, how and in what format this will take place will be seen in the near future. But the final result is obvious and non-negotiable.
All that is left is for honest people to admit the reality and then carefully decide which side is right and where they personally will stand. The liberals will probably keep the church and all the money. But not necessarily.
I’m glad that someone credible is willing to go on record as antiBachelor. Doug’s theology is absolutely toxic; I’m not referring to his WO nonsense.
Most unfortunate that a person who claims a background in clergy would be so demonstrably sarcastic and judgmental.
You have a president in Florida that not so long ago chose to fire 50 pastors on the spot. Now blatantly announces he is ignoring the General Conference decision not to ordain women pastors. He appears every week on the Hope Channel and reaffirms his decision to the world.
Much of the discussion seems to miss the point that the church leaders are realizing the local church needs more resources to carry out its mission. For example we are to feed the hungry and care for those around us in addition to sharing the joy of our salvation. I applaud those leaders who are asking the questions of how we should be organized in the 21st century. Hopefully, we will implement some efficiencies before the organization implodes.
I reject are tradition for tradition’s sake and innovation for innovation’s sake.
Much of what is being represented as “discussion” is actually people talking past each other. Much of that problem, in turn, is because of a failure to examine definitions.
It seems to me that we need to start with acknowledging that “the church” consists of believers and NO organization is “the church”.
Next, that the gospel INCLUDES who Jesus is, salvation by grace alone AND the nature of the coming kingdom. The first we share with adherents of the Roman Church and with other protestants. The second we share with protestants. The third is (so far as I know) not being emphasized by any other organization even close to the size of the SdA organization.
The organization CAN BE a means to an end–a tool of the church. But the GOAL dare not be simply increasing the size of the organization. The goal is the promulgation of the gospel, so the question should be, “How can that be most efficiently accomplished?”
Conversion is the miracle whereby a person’s trust is transferred from what he thought he could do to save himself to what the Lord does to save us. Conversion rather than denominational membership should be the goal.
The “message” about the nature of the kingdom needs to focus on WHY adventists understand the nature of the kingdom differently than futurist do.
NAD: Organizing the structure, does this also include the several layers of management? In my 26 years of healthcare I experienced four redesigns. I was always blessed, because I was willing to take on more responsibilities. Am now retired, and with the Our Precious Lords help,I made it through the redesigns.
I am pleased that we are looking at redsigning the structure. We are way past due.
Thank you,
Roni – Clearwater,FL
Thanks to our current structure, our NAD church has successfully organized to reach “into all the world”, and sadly with a deficiency reaching local neighborhoods. Now there is a need for both the international Church and the NAD to do local ministry for the poor and marginalized, of pastoral healing and restoration, 10 pastoral deeds for every theological word preached, for young adult/youth, and for our cities — all within an incarnational approach, using our worldly and heavenly identities, just like Jesus.
Terry,
What the church needs is less administration and more members discovering the power of the Holy Spirit so they can do the work instead of depending on pastors to do it.
Matthew 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Maybe time to prune and make good trees?
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Maybe preaching and appreciating those that preach the Word of GOD would be a good place to start; since HE commands it? Maybe we stop relying on other bright ideas and follow HIM?
The Lord has marked out His way of working. As a people we are not to imitate and fall in with the Salvation Army methods. This is not the work the Lord has given us to do. Neither is it our work to condemn them and speak harsh words against them. There are precious, self-sacrificing souls in the Salvation Army. We are to treat them kindly. There are in the Army honest souls, sincerely serving the Lord, who will see greater light, and advance to the acceptance of all truth. Those in the Salvation Army are trying to save the neglected, down-trodden ones. Discourage them not. Let them do that class of work by their own methods and in their own way. The Lord has plainly stated what Seventh-day Adventists are to do. Camp meetings are to be appointed and a series of tent meetings held. All who can should work in connection with the camp meeting. There should be no hesitancy in preaching the truth applicable for this time. A decided testimony is to be borne. The discourses should be so simple that children can understand them.
Kress Collection
sufferingsunfish,
We’re supposed to love people, but not fall in love with the methods of the Salvation Army? Do you even know what they do? Adventists have gone so far off into arguing about doctrines and thinking preaching sermons are the magic panacea for curing the sins of the world that we’ve almost completely lost sight of what it means to actually minister God’s love to others. So there is much we could learn from the Salvation Army.
Many liberals, represented in both Spectrum and AToday, are energetically attempting to divert attention from the gospel to making the church a welfare instrument engaged in social work so that committed SDAS are finding it necessary to employ precious resources in defense of the faith of our fathers.
Yes, individuals should commit to feeding the poor, etc. but that is not the task of the corporate body of the SDA church. It is most unfortunate that debate about women in ministry all too often, especially within the NAD hierarchy, a women’s role as wife and mother is grossly neglected. The NAD leadership is too committed to a unilateral agenda and is wasting money on a totally unnecessary move to other quarters.
Sufferingsunfish,
Read the exhortation of Jesus to the disciples in the upper room as recorded by John and ask who in the church is doing any of the things he was telling them to do. The answer: very few. Active ministry that relieves the suffering of others is the most powerful way any of us can demonstrate God’s love and draw the attention of others to Him so they will want to learn about Him. But people like you keep talking about teaching first and even say we should ignore the ministries He told us to be doing. That’s exactly backward from the method Jesus demonstrated where He ministered to their needs first and taught LAST. But you think it should be the other way around and that’s exactly why the church is in trouble.
Ministering to the needs of others and relieving their suffering is the Gospel in action and the most powerful tool we have for teaching others about God.
The biggest problem in the church is we have so many people who are focused on preaching doctrinal sermons, quoting Bible verses and arguing about theology that they’re not demonstrating the love of our redeeming God in their actions. Following Him requires that we become involved in actually ministering God’s love instead of just talking about it.
What are you actually doing to minister God’s love? Is it producing results that you can see in unbelievers becoming believers and people joining the church? If not, you’re not doing what God wants you to be doing.
John 17:
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Maybe you should compare the prayer of CHRIST in the upper room, that you referenced above, to your statements? But you seem to hate anyone quoting the BIBLE.
The multitude continues. The Church grows; except the areas that you and those like you are involved. The other denominations in your areas that promote Sound Doctrine are growing. Kind of hard to overlook or explain away the obvious; as others that understand Love are commanded to intervene.
Charity,
My local church is growing and I am contributing to that growth by ministering God’s love in ways that improve lives. So your assertion that the church is not growing where I am is utterly false. But I can show you plenty of places where churches are either not growing or even dying and what they have in common is people like you who spew Bible texts and the theory that all you have to do is quote Bible verses and preach sermons and people will be changed, but can’t show any results from it. Where is your experience in actually ministering God’s redeeming love? Where is your experience in soul winning? Where is your testimony about God working in your life? Until you can show us that, you’re just beating the wind and showing us why so many churches are dying.
Then by all means please prove your theory that teaching the BIBLE and Sound Doctrine is detrimental to the Church. Provide proof and statistics of those areas. Pew research statistically provides data otherwise in Sound Doctrine of those both increasing and decreasing.
You individual ideology is base solely on your observations of your Church? Are you responsible for the growth? Maybe you should ask those of strong conviction in your Church, if they believe in the BIBLE? Maybe you should ask yourself what part you play?
Remember GOD Calls, Draws and Saves; not us. Many are Called, but few are chosen; not even our call or classification there.
We do not beat in wind, we serve HIM as our fathers before us; for millennia. We are privileged to live within their convictions and covenant; reaping their Blessings from HIM. We know and understand that all credit and praise belong to HIM. We are no longer children; when can we expect you to grow up? We would suggest soon.
My last comment about sarcasm and judgmentalism was intended for Sam Geli, and any others who are so inclined.
There are few in the church pews who ever speak to anyone outside of the congregation they represent. Unless you are aged and physically impaired, the Lord exhorts us to go out in the hiways and byways, and invite them in. Show your love for these precious souls of the Lord Jesus Christ, as He demonstrated each day of His life, as an example of your caring. Love them and be concerned for every single one who will respond to your love, the same love you hold for our Saviour. This is the action that William is speaking of. The poor, the weak, the homeless, the widows, those needing help in their daily lives, in their habitat where they reside in your community. They may need help in many ways. Do it for L O V E, the Saviour
gives you. The Holy Spirit will give you words of compassion to speak, as you seek to love and care for your neighbors. This is the love that William is speaking of, and of the program he is involved with, in seeking out those with needs, and organizing his church’s response, avtively leading the way. Now adays the high ways and by ways are your local neighborhoods. You know them better than outsiders. They are where your love is needed.