Liberty Lessons (for U.S.) from the Plains
by Stephen Foster
The Daniel 2 and 3 account of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the image, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, is among the most memorable stories in the entire Bible.
1 Corinthians 10:11 indicates that there are many things that happened in the Old Testament “for examples;” and are recorded “for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” This story is certainly one of them.
For those who subscribe to Adventist eschatology, the parallels from this Bible story to the times in which we live and which lay just ahead, are readily apparent.
Daniel, of course, told Nebuchadnezzar precisely what the dream (of the image) was, and what the imagery represented; while on the other hand, the other Babylonian wise men could not. Nebuchadnezzar was told that the image’s head of gold represented him and his kingdom. Being an egomaniacal despot, he proceeded to erect an entirely golden actual image; and then mandated worship of it.
This state-sponsored mandate was at odds with the religious beliefs of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; because ‘their’ God prohibited the worship and/or bowing to any image or thing. Their religious liberty, their freedom of conscience, was therefore threatened with abolition or eradication.
To subscribers of Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) exegeses of eschatological Bible prophesy, Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego represent ‘a type’ or foreshadow of those who will be required by law to pay homage to yet another image.
As Nebuchadnezzar’s image was being constructed on the plains of Dura, the worshipful acknowledgement or bowing to it was not necessarily an issue of particular concern for anyone. The reality was that the commandment of the Hebrew’s God to not make “any graven image” was of little meaning or consequence to the subjects of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom. Nor was it an issue to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego that this commandment was being violated by the citizenry of Babylon. After all the Hebrew youth were actually captives and aliens in a ‘strange land.’ Prior to the official decree to worship the image went forth, there was no controversy.
That the erecting of the image was inspired by a dream, or more precisely, by the interpretation of a dream, indicates there was no way the worship of the image could have been anticipated by those who were not at least privy to the occurrence and details of the dream. We now know that this totaled two people: Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel.
The Hebrew youth were sentenced to the fiery furnace for having violated the state-mandated “worship of the image” law. Ironically even after their deliverance, Nebuchadnezzar, now thoroughly convinced that the God of his Hebrew captives was the true and living God, could not resist his despotic authoritarian instincts and double-downed on his religious mandate theme by decreeing that the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego be worshipped by all citizens. This also violated principles of religious liberty.
Any future observance of Sunday as an official day of rest is in my view, represented as (an example) by the mandated worship of the image of Nebuchadnezzar on the plains. As the erecting of the image was of no issue to either the Hebrew youth nor to the other subjects of Babylon, so neither is the current unofficial observance of Sunday by the majority of Christendom necessarily an issue. Likewise, on the other hand, the Sabbath is not at issue for those who essentially disregard it; and neither, quite frankly, should it be.
In point of fact, for the Sabbath to be considered an issue of public concern or of public policy would itself be in violation of liberty of conscience. It would also, it seems, be in violation of the Colossians 2:16 principle of (not permitting) judgment in any such matter. It is entirely possible the Sunday versus Sabbath issue is not, and should not be controversial until such time that civil authorities attempt to legislate the weekly observance of any day for any reason; just as the erecting of the image was not an issue for either the Hebrew youth or the citizens of Babylon until each was confronted with the choice of obeying God or obeying the state.
Is it also possible the only people who can anticipate this confrontation are those to whom prophetic symbolism is revealed? Ladies and gentlemen, that would be us.
What Bible text is the thesis for one day a requirement for Sunday to be observed? If the Daniel story is to be compared, there was only another god who was to be worshiped, nothing about a day.
The Lord expects us to do a little digging below the surface. He doesn't always spell everything out, but it's not that difficult to put it together if one compares Scripture with Scripture. To get specific right now seems pointless, however, since you reject SDA eschatology, and would find a way to argue against whatever evidence any of us would present. Once the beast of Rev. 13:1 is identified, it's a simple matter to come to the conclusion that the issue of which day to worship will become significant at the time of the end.
The point, as I see it, is the call to worship a false (substitute) god. The day is symbolic of the power of the beast or his image to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25). A call by the government for Sunday worship would accomplish both of Daniel's prophecies, and parallel the hubris of Nebuchadnezzar.
Elaine,
I need your help here. You ask for a specific text to speak to a specific day (Sunday) as it relates to another God, yet you are very avid in your contention that Adventists interpret the Bible literally. How does that work? One of the Biblical principles of interpretation Adventists have used in interpreting the prophecies of Daniel & Revelation is called the Historical Method. Adventists did not originate this, the reformers did if I have my facts right. This method was / is designed to align historical events with prophetic announcements. When you combine this method with the backround of the culture / issues of the time the author wrote the book, you can get a pretty good idea about what was going on, and what the writer was talking about.
Sunday has historically always been a pagan feast day in worship of the sun god. You don't need a specific text for that, it is well documented in history.
Horace,
You wrote "Once the beast of Rev. 13:1 has been identified—" implies that sometime in the past this interpretation was settled once and for all. By whom was the identity made?
Is it possible that John was referring to a ruler at that time who was behaving in that fashion? Weren't Christians being persecuted as he wrote? Weren't a number of the Roman rulers accurately described by him? Was it a quasi secular-religious power that at anytime operated in that fashion?
As for "the time of the end" that was a phrase used in the NT and 2,000 years later is still being used, so it cannot mean a specific time but when all those things come together, then will be the "time of the end."
Laffal,
Adventists interpret the Bible literally when it serves their purpose, which it usually does. Allegories such as parables were used by Christ, and it is always considered by Adventists that most have meaning today, EXCEPT the rich man and Lazarus which is always allegorical, despite their are allusions in the NT to Hell and a fire at the end; plus EGW says "some will suffer longer than others" which does not deny Hell.
Adventists are forced to deny that Daniel was written between 165-160 B.C. as it does not fit their long-time interpretation into the mid-19th century. This, despite nearly 100% of Bible scholars identify it as being written at that time as very descriptive of Antiochus Epiphanes which the Macabees describes in great detail. In addition, the
clue to this code which Adventism "discovered" was to reach a certain end point, 1844, then go backward until a time which equaled 2300 years and voila! that was the starting date! To ensure there would be no doubt, the event was said to have occurred in heaven where it could not be verified. Brilliant!
Yes. there have been a long line of Christian thinkers who have tried to predict events based on D&R, but where are they now? Time passes on.
The fact that Sunday was a pagan worship day is totally irrelevant. Are you contending that Christ chose a pagan feast day for his resurrection? Is the inference that Christians who celebrate Easter Sunday are in fact, worshiping a pagan deity? Let's see, if you birthday falls on the same day as some noted figure, is it your birthday, or someone earlier who has the same day that is being recognized? Christmas also was an earlier pagan time of celebration. Are all who celebrate Christmas really pagans worshipers?
Horace, the conclusion that in D&R a worship day is significant for the time of the end cannot be shown without very biased interpretation. A persecuting power is mentioned that is concerned about changing time and laws, can be applied to almost any secular or religious power of the past 2,000 years. And the "time of the end" is said in the NT to be very soon.
Laffal,
How many reformers discovered the interpretation as have Adventists? Both the author of Daniel and of Revelation were describing the current events, not some probable events 2,000 years later. Daniel was describing the desolation of the temple which occurred in the period 160 B.C. and John was describing the persecution of Christians by the despicable Roman rulers.
Why did Jesus choose a pagan feast day for his resurrection? Do all Christians who celebrate Easter Sunday know that they are worshiping a pagan god?
Elaine,
The list of Reformers who identified the little horn / anti-Christ / man of sin as the papacy is long. And the same list of Reformers identified the first beast of Revelation 13 as the papacy as well. Once again, the Adventists did not originate this interpretation / understanding.
Who do you use to say that Daniel was describing current events? Francisco Ribera? Daniel 12:2.4's reference to the "time of the end" includes the resurrection, so other then those who were resurrected at the crucifixion of Christ (Matthew 27:50-53) how can Daniel be talking about current events and not the 2 resurrections of the just and the unjust? John 5:28-29 What resurrection took place in Daniel's day?
To say that all that was revealed to John was the persecution of the Christians by "despicable Romans" is laughable. Again, where did you get your interpretation? Have you been consulting with Bro. Ribera again? To follow your logic, the New Earth / New Jerusalem would be where John said He saw it would be, along with God the Father and the Tabernacle of God. Revelation 21; 22
The reason that Christ rose on the 1st day of the week was because He rested on the 7th day Sabbath from all of His work for the redemption of man. " Do all Christians who celebrate Easter Sunday know that they are worshiping" on a pagan feast day? NO! That's why Sunday worship IS NOT YET the Mark of the Beast.
Excuse me… that is Francisco Alcazar not Ribera…
Laffal, I have never heard of Francisco Alcazar or Ribera, and have no idea what they might have been teaching. I don't depend on such individuals and they are of no advice to me whatsoever, but evidently you are acqainted with them and their teachings.
My information about the time of Daniel is taken from a number of Bible scholars, as there are too many anachronisms which could not have been known by an earlier writer.
The Interpreter's Bible commentary lists the various reasons for the later date. I don't know what Adventists reason for dating it earlier.
I made no mention at all of a resurrection in Daniel, but that he quite accurately described the desecration of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, not something that would occur 2,000 years later in a specific date, 1844. Perhaps you will give me the SDA interpretation which specifies that date.
At what time is it predicted that "Sunday worship" will be the Mark of the Beast? BTW, neither Adventists nor all other Christians "worship" a day, they worship God, and simply choose a certain day to worship him. He can be worshiped any day, anywhere and has never been limited to a certain day.
Elaine,
It might do some good to see if the Bible scholors you are relying have been influenced one way or another by Fracisco's Alcazar and Ribera. They were key figures in the Counter-Reformation that were assigned and determined to purposely reinterpret the Reformers understanding of the gospel / prophecies.
I did not say that you mentioned the resurrection as it relates to Daniel, it is mentioned in chapter 12 of his book. The point I was making is that if there was no resurrection in Daniel current events, and the time of the end written by him in his book, then there is a future concideration in play. But I will let Daniel speak for himself:
Your beloved scholors have no answer for the 1,290 and 1,335 days… how about you?
I could be wrong, but I think that laffal’s reference to “Sunday worship” relates to worship on Sunday as the sanctified day; set apart for Divine worshipful purposes. I am reasonably confident that he is not suggesting people are worshipping the day.
The state-mandated worshipping or bowing to the image is analogous to a state-mandated observance of the first day of the week in that both would be in violation of a clear “thus saith the Lord.”
What’s good for the first day observing geese in Colossians 2:16 will then be good for the seventh day observing ganders. Some quote this text to ‘us’ now; some will quote it to ‘them’ then. It should not be an issue until such time that it is an issue.
As for the pagan origins of sun-day observance and its coincidence with the day of the resurrection, this, of course, is a well-documented historical matter of political convenience. Those of us who annually recognize Christmas and Easter are, in my opinion, on solid ground recognizing the birth and resurrection of Jesus; but should not be unaware of the pagan symbolism connected to both.
Stephen,
I appreciate the clarification, it appeared that I had left a loose end.
How's that go… good looking out.
Not only Christmas and Easter, but many more Christian stories can be found in pagan myths: virgin births, resurrections, miraculous healing and more. All religions borrow from previous ones.
Elaine,
That is because there is truth and error, there is the genuine article and the counterfeit. The counterfeit is intentionally designed to deceive humanity. Genesis 11 gives us the historical picture of how the many different religions came to be from the Tower of Babel when the language of man was changed by God from one dialect to many.
When you break religions down to there basic components, they all have certain principles in common with the exception of Christianity. In all of the worlds religions, man makes the sacrifice to please / receive a blessing from an angry God. (Sounds like your understanding of the Old Testament God.) In Christianity, it is a loving God that makes the sacrifice when He gave His Son to be a sacrifice for our sin.
Sabbath and Sunday's being set aside as being sacred days represents each side of the truth / error features of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan. The point in time will come when the choice will ultimately have to be made, who's side are you on.
The Bible and it's recording of historical events has been written to those living in the present to identify the issues in the Great Controversy so they will know how to order their lives, and make the best decisions possible… eternity is at stake…
Anti-catholicism began with the reformation so it would make sense that the Counter-Reformation would have opponents.
Having written a master's thesis on early Christian history, I only used well-respected Bible scholars and historians and no such names.
Translate 1290 days and it amounts to 3-l/2 years, when Jews suffered uner the Seleucid Empire, and Antiochus Epiphanes who tried to stamp out Judaism and replace it by Greek religion and culture. His banning of Jewish religous practices was an attempt to change the times, the festival calendar and the law of Moses. The prediction was that God will permit his opprestion to last for only a time, two times, and half a time, i.e. 3-1/2 years/ All of this is a very clear description of the period of Judaism under Antiochus Epihanes. To project such a plain description to 2,000 years later is not warranted at all by the historical facts well known to history.
What about the 1335?
Have you ever thought that the Counter-Reformation was implimented because the Reformers had it right about their beloved church?
As for the day of worship… no where in the Bible is the Sabbath designated as "a day of worship." The Sabbath is designated as a DAY OF REST. The concept of the Sabbath is to rest in the completed works of God whether it be creation / redemption / the promised restoration. Worship is a part of the Sabbath rest, but not the chief focus… God is.
You will not find me arguing that God can / is to be worshiped every day. But every / any day is / can not be designated the Sabbath.
Go back to your history books, Elaine. The pitiful little puppet king, Antiochus Epiphanes (sometimes derogatorily referred to by his contemporaries as "Epimanes"), interrupted the temple services for 3 years and 10 days, not 3 1/2 years. And 1290 days, if taken as literal days, is 3 years and 1 month. It doesn't fit the time element at all, and he didn't come along at the right time. and he didn't "prosper," or "wax great." He was a failure. And if there's one thing we can be sure of in Bible prophecy, it is that it is precise when time elements are involved. The 1260 days doesn't fit Antiochus at all, because it come during the time of the fourth beast, which nearly all Christians recognize as Rome; and there was a time when Protestants understood it to be Rome in both its pagan and papal phases. Antiochus was Greek, and came before Rome ruled the world. Talk about revisionist history . . . .
Laffal,
I'm sure you can inform me what 1335 days is meant.
Elaine,
Sure I could, but that's not the point. The point is your beloved scholors have no way to place Antiochus in that window. And it is my understanding that the 42 months, 1260 days, time / times / half a time, the 1,290, and the 1,335 are all connected. So if you can't fit the 1,335 in the Antiochus window then these time prophecies could very well be pointing somewhere else in time.
Odd, isn't it (or is it), how Babylon is revealed as a key player in end time events?
"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE
MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
–Revelation 17:5"
Maybe Brother Steven is on to something here!
♥T
Oops: got the Brother's name wrong – sorry – should be Stephen ☺
Just a few more questions to add to the pot: "Does the ancient religion of Babylon exist today in some form perhaps? If so, where, how? Are there symbols or signs or maybe worship commonality existing today in some FORM or another? An IMAGE of it perhaps? Sun worship? Just asking!"
♥T
Trevor,
I doubt very seriously that the “Babylon” and “image” references found in Daniel and Revelation are mere coincidences, don’t you?
This account is a classic example of how a religio-political power would enforce a form of worship even to the extent that non-compliance warranted such a terrible a death decree. In this case, one can clearly see, how religious worship requirements are enforced by a puppet political regime, which in this case, is also the aggressor.
♥T
Ishtar and Tammuz were gods in Babylon, frequently mentioned in the Bible. They were also in the earlier Sumerian and Akkadian cultures. Gods and goddesses "traveled" from one culture to another, often changing their names, slightly.
Islam has replaced the ancient gods as the religion of most of that area today. There are divisions: Sunni, Shite, Wahabi, and others, all branches of the original religion founded by Mohamed. Just like most religions, they inevitably split as they get older.
Just for the sake of accuracy and understanding, the word is 'Shiite'. For quite a few English speakes, that extra 'i' is important. The Wahhabi are Sunni, just of a very conservative kind. Most Muslims are either Sunni or Shiite. But there are others outside, or overlapping that general divison. There is the Alawite sect of the Shiite, important today as they control Syria, as well as the Druze in neighbouring Lebanon. There are also the Sufi, who are among the more interesting Islamic groups who span both Shiite and Sunni.
Elaine,
Quite the contrary… the pagan god's did not travel from one culture to another. They were conceptualized as a result of the confusion of the languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). In essesnce, the Chaldean mysteries with their principles were inculterated into each given regional / dialectical grouping. (Which happens to be why there is a great deal of similarity within the multitude of religions.)
Mythology is the storyboard of the real life and times of Nimrod / Samiramis (Ishtar) and the child / husband Tammuz (counterfeit christ), prompted by Cush. These people were the lead proponents of the Chaldean mysteries. This is all about the counterfeit godhead… also known as the trinity. The sole purpose was for the destruction of the truth about God, His plan of salvation, and the worhip of Him alone… This is what / is / and will be what Babylon is all about… Revelation 15, 17 & 18 give a clear outline / picture of Babylon's final end… at the exaltation of the redeemed of God & Christ.
Elaine,
Quite the contrary… the pagan god's did not travel from one culture to another. They were conceptualized as a result of the confusion of the languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). In essesnce, the Chaldean mysteries with their principles were inculterated into each given regional / dialectical grouping. (Which happens to be why there is a great deal of similarity within the multitude of religions.)
Mythology is the storyboard of the real life and times of Nimrod / Samiramis (Ishtar) and the child / husband Tammuz (counterfeit christ), prompted by Cush. These people were the lead proponents of the Chaldean mysteries. This is all about the counterfeit godhead… also known as the trinity. The sole purpose was for the destruction of the truth about God, His plan of salvation, and the worhip of Him alone… This is what / is / and will be what Babylon is all about… Revelation 15, 17 & 18 give a clear outline / picture of Babylon's final end… at the exaltation of the redeemed of God & Christ.
Paganism was simply the propagation / expansion of the original outline / practice of the Chaldean mysteries within each culteral / dialectical setting.
Whether the pagan gods "traveled," the gods in Greece became gods in the Roman Empire with merely a change of names: Zeus became Jupiter, Diana–Venus, etc. On the site Pagan Origins of Christian Myths shows the comparison between all the various myths and those of Christianity which came later. There are too many similarites in the stories as to be merely coincidental. All religions borrowed and incorporated from other earlier ones.
Is Mrs. Nelson saying that the god's of Babylon could have perhaps 'traveled' down the Daniel 2 image prophecy from Babylon down to Rome (the legs), then 'traveled' within the division of Rome as signified by the ten toes of the image (the iron and clay)?
Is there a powerful religious-political presence of some sorts in this region which has made a significant impact there and all around the world? Do I see the hands go up? Yes? I think that would be correct! This power (religio-political) when not the dominant force assumes a 'tolerant' attitude and role and many have fallen for such dramatics. After all, Babylon as a religio-political power whose head of gold was not just a head of gold for nuttin'.
♥T
You cannot really trace all gods/religion back to Babylon when so much precedes Babylon. If you mean 'Babel', that ios something different to what most people mean by 'Babylon'. I think a better explanation is that all (man-made) religions are based on human longings and fears, which tend to be common to all. And I would make Judaism and Christianity exceptions, even if not everyone here agrees. I believe we should also be wary of those who do these comparisons of different beliefs in different religions: when you look at the sources, the similarities are not alway so obvious, and the dissimilarities are often striking, but they are left out as they would spoil what is otherwise a good story. Sometimes the best explanation is that the devil has been at work. And while I would not write that in an anthropology paper (the devil being notoriously difficult to either observe or interview), I hope it is appropriate to make the comment here.