Skip to content

31 Comments

  1. Hansen
    01 October 2015 @ 7:01 pm

    Depth of Conversion is an issue everywhere and has always been. The Bishop of Meaux, Briconnet, was heralded as a potential French Luther in the Reformation era; sadly, when the French “inquisition” had him in their sights, he repudiated his evangelical faith and returned to Rome, after publicly confessing his error in embracing the Evangelical position.

    According to David Lin, there was near universal apostasy among Chinese Adventists when Mao came to power. Lin himself compromised his Sabbath keeping, while incarcerated.

    Jack Sequerra reported that during communist persecutions in Africa, some SDA denied their faith while members of other churches remained steadfast.

    Not sure what this proves, if anything, aside from the need for self examination

    • Steve Ferguson
      01 October 2015 @ 9:42 pm

      Good points Hansen. It is even older. Go back to Augustine of Hippo and see his fight with the Donatists. It was all about how many of the Christians publicly renegged their faith when persecuted by pagan Roman authorities, but then suddenly found it again when Constantine converted. This issue is as old as Christianity itself.

  2. Hansen
    01 October 2015 @ 11:04 pm

    Th frightening thing is we personally don’t know how we will respond when there is a gun to our head. Hitler didn’t seem so bad to SDA church administration when the alternative was a concentration camp.

    The fantasies we entertain about going to death rather than getting the mark of the beast need to be revised in the light of recent history. Hasidic Jews, and others simply had no choice. They were going to be killed, repudiate Judaism or not. For Adventists, Sunday may not seem so bad,considering the alternatives.

    • Hansen
      02 October 2015 @ 12:20 am

      Hasidic Jew during the Holocaust, that is.

    • William Noel
      04 October 2015 @ 6:55 am

      It is easy to talk about the ultimate end and how we might face it, but few are called to face such an ultimate and final challenge. So why do we waste any breath talking about it when God wants us focused on living for Him today? Is it not far better to talk about how to live for Christ today?

      • Hansen
        04 October 2015 @ 6:08 pm

        What’s with you, William? Anything doesn’t fit your narrowly defined agenda, is a waste of breath? A lot of people get involved in Adventism because of the mark of the beast scenario with its implicit martyrdom of the faithful.

        Sabbathkeeping and legalism are preeminent features of Adventist evangelism. I have personally heard a prominent SDA evangelist, one of the most prolific in the church, say that God called him to teach Christians the “binding nature of the Decalogue” and that his view was that other denominations could teach people to become Christians so he could then rope them into Sabbathkeeping.

        How is this to be accomplished? Mark of the beast versus seal of God “theology”. Of course the Sabbath is nowhere in Scripture defined as the seal of God but a lot of SDA don’t care since Sr. White said blah, blah, blah.

        If you want to talk about church planting, gospel medical missionary evangelism, dark county work, “pioneering,” there are people experienced in those areas who can discuss them with you; however, the fact is that few SDA care about those things.

        It’s important that people realize what a fraud the Adventist faith turns out to be when it isn’t prancing down the street in silver slippers while all the people applaud it.

        • Elaine Nelson
          04 October 2015 @ 7:12 pm

          Maybe with silver slippers, but this “emperor has no clothes” despite the shining footwear not going anywhere but backward.

        • Serge Agafonoff
          04 October 2015 @ 8:48 pm

          Mistake would be a better word than ‘fraud,’ Hansen. Fraud implies deliberate intent to deceive. The founders of Adventism were simply mistaken. Bill Garber posted this link to an absolutely excellent article by the great Ray Cottrell who has summarised his life-work of analysis of Daniel 8.14, and in the process shown how the pioneers got it wrong. He also gives a shocking history of how the conservative administrators colluded with less than intellectually honest theologians, Hasel in particular, to adopt an ‘Obscurantist’ approach to these parlous teachings. Maybe it is in this age where we now know better that the fraud is taking over from the mistake.

          http://www.rethinkingadventism.com/support-files/cottrell_1844.pdf

  3. John
    02 October 2015 @ 11:02 am

    Seventh-day Adventist Sunday-keeping is already a reality in 6 Pacific island nations. I’m glad Mr Jenkins didn’t embarrass us with that. Or am I? It’s been 4 years since the Samoas-Tokelau Mission switched to Sunday and leaders at GC seem to be completely mute. They either don’t know what to do or they approve. Perhaps Arrabito was right – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR3aBadk3Tg

    • Steve Ferguson
      03 October 2015 @ 11:37 pm

      Yes it is SDA’s keeping Sunday, but in those countries Sunday is the Sabbath. We are Seventh-day Adventists, not Saturday-day Adventists.

    • milton hook
      06 October 2015 @ 4:00 am

      When the earliest SDA missionaries came to Australia after crossing the International Date Line they adopted the Australian calendar. When they returned home to America they crossed the IDL again and adopted their local American calendar again.
      EGW did the same when she came to Australia. She adopted the Australian calendar and later returned to her American calendar.
      General Conference men cross the IDL when they come to Australia and they fall in with the Australian calendar.
      The principle is that individuals adopt the local calendar wherever they find themselves in the world. It’s not rocket science. Even a child can follow it.
      But the South Pacific Division has spent countless dollars doing research papers to convince the Samoan people that the local calendar is not to be followed. They insist Sunday, according to the new calendar, is to be observed instead of Saturday. In other words, the SDAs are told NOT to follow the local calendar.
      The GC, South Pacific Division and Union men observe the local calendars wherever they travel but they will not allow the Samoan SDAs to follow their local Samoan calendar. It is nothing short of hypocrisy.
      Ted Wilson is well briefed on the situation but will not act. Perhaps it’s one of those issues that doesn’t really threaten his comfortable chair.

  4. Cherry
    02 October 2015 @ 11:28 am

    It would also be nice to be known for how we treat ALL groups of people without discriminating against women for an example. It was a very backwards church that was all over the media recently as being against women being recognized as receiving gifts from God and having recognition for those gifts.

    • jimbobsda
      03 October 2015 @ 2:14 pm

      Uh, is that the Catholic church you are referring to?

  5. earl calahan
    02 October 2015 @ 11:30 am

    Let’s clear the air here. Just yesterday a demon in Oregon killed 9 young people because they owned up to be Christian. Why should these victims have to admit their
    religious affiliation to any crazy demonic individual or supposed authority; thereby offering themselves up to assassination?? The Holy Spirit knows the individual’s heart. No need to commit suicide to an idiot. No way.
    There are much more intelligent methods to witness your faith in sharing the Gospel message of the Christ, Jesus.
    The utter stupidity of turning the other cheek between
    “life or death” situations. Don’t judge your brothers and
    sisters in these circumstances.

    • jimbob
      03 October 2015 @ 2:10 pm

      Yeah,

      No need to tell the shooter that you are a Christian. Instead, just tell them you are an Adventist.

      • Jim Hamstra
        04 October 2015 @ 1:46 am

        This is not funny.

        One of the victims was a Seventh-Day Adventist.

        • William Noel
          04 October 2015 @ 7:04 am

          Something I’ve not seen much about is the gunman’s background and how he came to be so hateful and with such animosity toward Christians. Perhaps there are lessons to be learned about how Christians present themselves in society in contrast with the vilification that is becoming more intense.

    • William Noel
      04 October 2015 @ 7:01 am

      Dying because of your faith is the decision of an instant where living for Christ is the challenge of a lifetime. Dying at the hands of a gunman is just more dramatic.

      If anything, that horrible event illustrates to me the need to continually live in a close relationship with God so that I can be confident of His great love that makes my salvation sure regardless of how my life ends.

  6. Ron Henderson
    02 October 2015 @ 3:26 pm

    Throughout the ages in this sin sick world there has been turn coats, fifth columnists, renegades, et al. Read it in the Bible where many Jews fought with the enemy when they though Israel would fail! This is deja’ vu’ all over! But, hey, God always turns the tide and comes out winner. Soon we will be the church victorious!

    • FredShoey
      02 October 2015 @ 8:59 pm

      Great idea, let’s redo all the conspiracy nonsense we should have outgrown after the last red scare.

  7. Roger Metzger
    02 October 2015 @ 5:10 pm

    Did Dr. Jenkins refer to adventism as a “religion”? Did he make reference to “the Adventist faith”? If he did, I missed it.

    Mormonism is a religion.

    The advent movement is essentially different from Mormonism. The advent movement is a special emphasis within the Christian religion.

    Editors of Adventist Today, please ask your contributors to use language that doesn’t give the impression that the advent movement offers an alternative to Christianity. Or an alternative to protestantism, for that matter.

    While we are at it, let’s note that protestantism isn’t a religion either.

    The language we use influences the way we think and the way we act.

    There are members of the Seventh-day Adventist organization who treat members of other denominations with respect. Unfortunately, there are many whose attitude toward other Christians is deplorable. Some of that blame lies at the feet of people who–even if it is unintentionally–use language that gives a wrong impression about what the advent movement is.

    • William Noel
      04 October 2015 @ 7:07 am

      Roger,

      I share your concern, but I am doubtful that any such “policing” of postings by the moderators will be fruitful because the views expressed spring from the perceptions individuals hold about the church. I think it will be more productive to connect with the Holy Spirit and become effective ministers of God’s love so that the doubters and critics will see real Christianity in action.

      • Roger Metzger
        04 October 2015 @ 12:05 pm

        My suggestion was with reference to Adventist Today articles. I wasn’t suggesting policing. Editing maybe–and only with the authors’ permission.

        Perhaps I don’t adequately understand the process.

    • George Tichy
      04 October 2015 @ 8:43 pm

      Christian religions have their doctrines defined by the Bible. The Sola Scriptura principle is certainly at the core of the doctrinal set.

      Though there are some Adventists that can be called Christian SDAs, the great majority is actually made of Whiteist SDAs, since their belief system is based on EGW.

      I know, the SDA Church has it on paper, that the Bible is our only source of faith, doctrine, and belief. And it’s true, ON PAPER it is. But any long term SAD knows how hypocritical that statement is.

  8. Bugs/Larry Boshell
    04 October 2015 @ 8:14 am

    My advertisement parody befitting this article: “I don’t pay much attention to Adventists, but when I do, I notice them when they improve the living of lives.”

    Dr. Jenkins article buttresses my posit that Adventists live in a sound proof chamber by not mentioning even one item of Adventist theology. He credits this: “Adventists show believers how to improve their lives in physical terms, as well as spiritual, and that practical message carries enormous weight in societies overwhelmed by disease and substance abuse. Faithfully following Adventist principles promises a major improvement in life chances and in longevity.”

    Sorry theologicrats, the fixation on prophecy, the Second Advent, the papacy, doesn’t advance Adventism in the real world even one inch. There It’s a meaningless, unintelligible language developed for the interest of insiders only, similar to that sometimes identified with siblings, often twins, who create and communicate with their own paired verbiage unintelligible to outsiders.

    Adventism moves forward only when its inner-chamber fixation on gobbledy gook from the past is unnoticed.

    In spite of the hidden agenda of bait and switch mentality Adventism has employed for decades via its “health message” as a lure to its theology, it has a firm inroad to the attraction or God as love that is noticed by such observers as Dr. Jenkins. It’s the obvious lighted exit away from its ossified, gloomy prophetical miscalculations.

    • Jack Price
      06 October 2015 @ 2:54 pm

      Interesting observations, Larry. I say the church and the health message would advance they give free Little Debbie’s cookies to everyone. They should have done that instead of sending out the Great Controversy to Philadelphia. “Little Debbies: the more you eat of these fat-filled, sugar-brimming, calorie-packed junk food snacks, the healthier you will be!”

      • Bugs/Larry Boshell
        07 October 2015 @ 8:22 am

        Jack, I think you miss the health of the church concern, the big one. Forget the personal health “message!” Think of the lines at church doors had the tag line been printed on the packages: “Your local Seventh-day Adventist church has an endless supply of these goodies that will be distributed every Saturday at eleven a.m.”

        That would have been a healthy opportunity for sermons about the 2300 days and the soon End of Probation to be preached to the sweet tooth connoisseurs awaiting handouts!

        And so Adventism would have a left sweet taste in mouths and pollution in landfills would have been greatly reduced with the deposit of flimsy wrappers rather than entire books!

        A Green church and full pews! And those pesky “backsliders” might have returned for such an offer! What an opportunity missed!

  9. Ima Paine
    06 October 2015 @ 2:47 pm

    What good is a nice article by a scholar, when our own GC and the Barely Adventist site keep taking pot shots at the Adventist presidential candidate? http://BarelyAdventist.com/general-conference-leaders-on-hunger-fast-to-end-carson-presidential-bid/

    • Bugs/Larry Boshell
      07 October 2015 @ 7:47 am

      Ima Hogg and Ura Hogg is my sister. These are our real names and we take umbrage that you take umbrage with our satire site “BarelyAdentist.com” and its stick-poking at Ben Carson. Just wait for the really funny stuff when Seventh-day Adventist is attached to his public name! Tis surely coming! We’re in no hurry to see that happen since we now have the corner on the laugh-a-rama and suspect we will relinquish it to a national guffaw at that time.

      And thanks Mr. Bugs for letting us post this in defense of our prophetic, hilarious work.

      • Ima Paine
        09 October 2015 @ 11:13 am

        The Church must fear to be associated with the good doctor because, as CNN put it, “Ben Carson Says the Darndest Things.” They even refer to him as “a former Sunday School teacher.” http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/07/politics/ben-carson-debt-ceiling-marketplace/index.html

      • Ervin Taylor
        11 October 2015 @ 10:12 pm

        May I congratulate the individuals responsible for “Bearly Adventist.com.” They are doing a truly inspired and needed work. It would seem that there is a category of “religious person” who appear to have a very difficult time of laughing at themselves. Some of these individuals are soooo . . . serious. In the interest of their mental health, might I suggest that, at least some of the time, that they “lighten up” and smell the roses.