Is This When Jesus Will Come Back?
by Stephen Foster, April 1, 2016: Here’s what I think: you literally need to have your head examined if you don’t think that the affairs of humanity are literally spinning out of the control of humans; or if you don’t believe that mankind is ready and, either wittingly or in some cases unwittingly, willing and capable of destroying human life altogether.
Sure, I know that some of the readers and leaders of this site have bad tastes in their mouths about religion, Christianity, Protestantism, and Seventh-day Adventism in particular; and that many of the readers and leaders of this site have a highly skeptical, if not cynical, view of anything prophetic—with particular regard to cataclysmic or apocalyptic stuff.
Once you have soured on Adventism, or if for whatever reason you are convinced that Adventism has soured on you, it is then understandable that you would reject some, if not all, of Adventism’s assumptions and conclusions about the past, present, and future. I get that.
But at the very least it would seem that everyone has to admit that it appears we are living in perilous times. Or if that term—“perilous times”—dredges up unpleasant memories of scary fire and brimstone sermons—or “come to Jesus” appeals of your youth—then perhaps you can admit that, all over the world, we live in what appear to be dangerous times.
It also appears to me that, for whatever reason, those who seem temperamentally best suited to handle international threats to human civilization are among the least likely to be entrusted with any such responsibility by the American electorate. Judging by who they are who now have their fingers on nuclear buttons in places like Pyongyang and Islamabad; and judging by the lengths to which radical Islamic terrorists will go to kill anyone anywhere, at anytime; and judging by the instability and unrest even within relatively homogeneous cultures and societies all over the Middle East as well as over the entire African continent (to name just a few places); and given the technological capacities available to those (even in America) who are willing to carpet bomb certain places on this earth into oblivion, or at least back to the “Stone Age”; how can anyone with any awareness of any of this—much less all of this—think that things are likely to continue as they are indefinitely? or even likely to improve?
How can anyone who is aware of the existential threat posed by the prevalence/proliferation of antibiotic resistant “super bugs,” or anyone aware of the existence of biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction (not to mention those of the nuclear variety), believe that the “good guys” will somehow keep the “bad guys” from getting their hands on such things forever?
How can anyone who perhaps understandably believes that the United States is the last best hope for mankind, but who witnesses the social and racial disharmony, distrust, and unrest within the United States—that appears likely to be further exacerbated no matter who wins the presidency—think that “the last hope” is much more than a breeze-blown flickering candle?
So now—since I admitted to it in the opening paragraph—you know my preconceived bias. Without regard to prophecy per se, does anyone truly believe that mankind has a handle on “the situation”? and/or does anyone believe that there is no reason to think that the world is headed for something cataclysmic?
Then again, maybe it’s me and other “doomsayers” who need our heads examined.
All this said; let me offer a prediction as to when Jesus will come back. He will return when His return will be a relief to practically everyone.
Stephen Foster is a retired advertising executive and media consultant with AT&T, and a former business analyst with Dun & Bradstreet. He is currently a freelance journalist, blogger, and on-air news pundit. He has written extensively on public affairs and religious liberty issues; including as a columnist with Atoday.org, starting in 2010. He is a former lay member of the North American Division Executive Committee and has been a member of the Oakwood University board of trustees since 2011. He writes from Huntsville, AL. Stephen has been married for nearly 37 years and is the father of two adult daughters and the grandfather of the Magnificent Seven. He is an alumnus of Pine Forge Academy, Oakwood and Andrews Universities; and the eldest of three preacher’s kids.
Excellent, Stephen! How indeed can any reasonably intelligent, honest person seriously doubt that we are living in a Biblically, prophetically significant end time?
I recall once hearing a pastor summarize Revelation in a few basic concepts:
1. Humanity is part of a struggle with cosmic significance;
2. God is going to win;
3. Things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get a whole lot better;
4. As the denouement approaches, the dividing line between good and evil will become sharper and more significant.
OK Stephen..that being said….what percentage of SDA want Jesus to come back before the USA election, or Summer 2016 or before they get married?
Time for Survey monkey for all 18 million SDA members so that the leadership and/or pastors to get a reality check can get.
How many times have you heard from the pulpit…”Jesus is coming soon”?
Survey the reaction…how many go .”AMEN come soon Jesus”?
I am not a mocker of Him coming… I just think that some/most leaders are out of touch with most of the laity.
We should realistically remember that Jesus’ disciples fully expected His returning in their lifetime. That was 2,000 years ago. In God’s eyes “one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.” We will all see him at the moment of our last breath. There should be no concern of a Second Coming before that time. BUT, if so, what difference would it make if each day you have lived and loved in the best way you can know.
Elaine,
Mrs. White wrote somewhere, “the coming of the Lord has always been shown to me as near.” paraphrase.
That nearness she saw is a reflection of what you have observed: the disciples, the New Testament writers, the whole bible waits in anticipation of the Christ. Even Job in his suffering hopes on this hope: For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Stephen does not know if these are the ‘latter days’ but he hopes in the Lord Jesus Christ who has promised to return. We have hope. We look for the city which has the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
The city of man, the city of destruction, wherein we dwell is a mess.
Jimbob,
I think you question asking what percentage of Adventists want Jesus to return is the spot-on. Answering that honestly requires each of us to measure ourselves against the standards and expectations of God, see where we are deficient and accept His guidance to correct any divergence.
One specific area where I am concerned is the contrast between the teachings of Jesus and what the church is teaching today. Jesus told His followers to embrace the empowerment and guidance of the Holy Spirit, but as a church we’re teaching people to be more fearful of deception than confident in the truths of God. Until that changes, the church will be placing members will in grave spiritual danger. Still, there is hope because troubled times force us to test and strengthen the basis of our faith, to believe God’s promises and receive the power that is promised to all who believe. Making that connection is what will create real desire to see Jesus return. Without that connection, any talk of anticipation is just noise.
These comments are directed at the same points raised by Elaine and Mr. Abbott.
One would assume that we would all agree that the early Christians resolutely believed that Jesus would return in their lifetimes. Eventually, when it did not happen, in the first generation and in the second and so on, Christians had to adjust to the idea that the definition of “soon” must be God’s definition and not their definition. And Christians in the last half of the 1st Century and early 2nd Century would see their own situation and as bad as it could get. The Roman state did not appreciate this small group of individuals who did not acknowledge the Emperor as God and thus Christians were not just deviant they were seditious.
Things did indeed get a whole lot worse before it got better. The dividing line between good and evil did indeed get sharper and more significant. You could be killed if you were on the right side (from the view of the Christians). At last, when the Emperor became a nominal Christian and Christianity was no longer illegal things did indeed get better. By this time, many Christians concluded that the specific beliefs that had been previously widely held based on the warnings contained in the Book of Revelation obviously had to be adjusted. The Christian Church now in a position of power and we all know what happened after that.
Perhaps we are going to have to adjust our understandings of what we think about what will happen “soon.”
” Perhaps we are going to have to adjust our understandings of what we think about what will happen “soon.” ”
I agree – we may ALL (close your eyes Ervin) have to adjust our expectations. And this includes people on different sides of this debate.
“By this time, many Christians concluded that the specific beliefs that had been previously widely held based on the warnings contained in the Book of Revelation obviously had to be adjusted.”
And this too is happening again before our very eyes on this very web page.
“The Christian Church now in a position of power and we all know what happened after that.”
Some of think this may happen again 8-(. Beware of any religious leader with an army or even a fanatical militia. Why some Christians think it would be a service to God to adopt the tactics of fanatical Islamists trapped in a Mediaeval time warp, is difficult to comprehend.
” At last, when the Emperor became a nominal Christian and Christianity was no longer illegal things did indeed get better.”
Whether indeed this was an improvement is very much subject to debate.
“Things did indeed get a whole lot worse before it got better. The dividing line between good and evil did indeed get sharper and more significant. You could be killed if you were on the right side (from the view of the Christians).”
And once the Christians got their own armies, they reciprocated in-kind.
And within a few centuries Islam reciprocated in-kind.
A sense of deja vu all…
As I was growing up in the Adventist Church, several sermons in my early years alleged that the apostate church had purposely stopped teaching about the Second Coming, and there were various reasons given. But I also noticed during that time, as Sunday-keeping evangelicals began preaching the Second Coming, that such churches seemed to be unmistakably blessed with growth and enthusiasm. There’s something about believing in a soon-coming Savior that thoroughly energizes at least some congregations. I came to conclude that Christianity without the Second Coming emphasis would probably have died out long ago. Christianity is by nature a calm, personal religion (with all due respect to the horrors of the book of Revelation) and could become very boring to parishioners who need “something more” to help them stay focused. In my experience in Latin America, Catholic churches that give some emphasis to the Second Coming seemed to fare better in their vital statistics than those that don’t, and I think the same is true for evangelical churches and, in fact, for Adventist congregations. There’s something very arresting about the Second Coming that helps us remain expectant and young at heart….
Stephen, i’ve been saying this for the past two years. “As a thief in the night”. are there some, whom do not believe there is tribulation in the world, and will gather momentum and cascade down upon the Earth with great ferocity. You’ve touched on a subject many ignore, or just don’t wish to think about. If they think, at all, about hydrogen bombs, they believe that sanity will prevail, and mutual respect for their own necks, will be in jeopardy, and “mutual” fear of global conflagration will not happen.
However today we have a group of more than one billion people, whose “bible” tells them to kill all the infidels, consider them worst than dogs, and the rewards for sacrificial suicide is…….virgins???? Of course, the nations of Islamic religion, are taught from infancy of that command. And they now have the
“H” bombs. and working hard on the “delivery systems”. They are not afraid of dying, and taking the whole world with them. Actually this would be greatest desire of their hearts, annihilating the infidels, and entering Paradise for their ultimate rewards. You cannot pacify a race of a billion souls short of extermination. God is on record of doing this. The USA has been stockpiling WMD’s for 65 years, at Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah, Anthrax, also at Fort Detrick,Md., Also in Almaty, Kazakhstan (Bubonic Plague), Since 1988 in Sierra Leone (Ebola) , Liberia (Biologicals). The United States is responsible for Ebola leaking out while testing on…
continued>>>>>>>while testing on isolated groups of natives. My, my, my. The master plan of the Elites is to wantonly annihilate masses in Africa, and the Middle East, then on selected groups of human creatures, until the optimum number that Earth can provide for. To recover the wildernesses for the animal creatures, including cloned Dinosaurs etc etc. Think not?? You need to gain entry to some of the secret manifestos of Greenpeace, American Environmental Groups, Homeland Security, an agency that coordinates, Fema, CIA, FBI, FDA, DND, and approx 50 other organizations domiciled in the USA, as well as liaison with Central Bank Nabobs, NATO, and the United Nations. Its been happening ever since the League Of Nations/ WWI, but internationalized with the United Nations following WWII, first in San Francisco, then permanently in NYC, with Strategic offices throughout the world. i’ve alerted you to this for the past 2 years, but no one here takes it as undeniable truth. “Even the Elect will be lost, unless the days are shortened”.
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, butwolves in sheep clothing, against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”. Folks, give up your naivete. This is not a simple world any lon ger. Although the Elites give lip service to Christianity, and all other religions, they are devils of darkness, subject to the Illuminati, Free Masonry, subject to the father of lies, Lucifer. You will note that it was the “new Jesuit Pope Francis, who gave the preamble to Global Warming this past September in Wash. DC, which was later ratified unanimously in
Paris this past December. Pope Francis then traveled to Jerusalem and Palestine and made overtones to
both Palestine and Israel of how all should be unified in God. Using the United Nations as the vehicle, the plan is to move the headquarters of the Vatican to Jerusalem, which will be declared “OPEN CITY OF GOD”, for all religions. But with the Roman Catholic Church representing all of Christendom.
Make no mistake, this information is about “True Earth Conspiracy”. The Elitists are the top of the Free Manson Ranks. The lower echelons are unaware of the Master Plan of patronage to Lucifer. Most think the 32nd rank is the highest, but those inside The Diamond Ring are several elevations above. i have names if you want them.
We see that Mr. Calahan is convinced there are conspiracies all around us: “They are devils of darkness, subject to the Illuminati, Free Masonry, subject to the father of lies, Lucifer.” Again, I guess we would have to invent those who believe in conspiracy theories if they did not exist to validate classical Adventist myths about such things as what is in the basements of Catholic Churches and mythical organizations such as the Illuminati.
You may be using satire here, but there really are people in small churches and Adventists who believe in the Illuminati and similar things. They seem like kind, intelligent people, and then you hear this sort of thing from them!. I heard this at a church dinner in Florida last year. And apparently they teach this in SS classes. The Jesuit rumor is still alive and well in some places. (Actually I read this started in other Protestant churches many years ago before it spread to Adventists.)
But I do believe in one giant conspiracy of evil by Satan and his followers. And they can be found in all political parties, tribes, races, nations, religions, etc.
Webmaster or Moderators: please fix the comment section so it will indent the replies to each comment. I miss the previous format where I could tell who replied to whom. Now it is confusing because it’s hard to know which reply goes with which comment. Thank you.
Erwin. i expected you to be first to ridicule “my imaginations” of above content as being sensational.
My question to you is, are you able to refute any of it???
Illuminati conspiracies are just the thing,
for Satan to get people’s minds off of Jesus.
I can refute something like a website on here that accused two church leaders/teachers of several years ago of being Jesuits. They say that a lady witnessed these two men officiating at a Catholic church. I laughed myself silly–I was their secretary at the time!
As I view the history of Christianity, those who had been intimate with God have always perceptively seen in the world around them compelling evidence of the imminent return of Christ. I submit that if we do not see that conclusion in the entrails of current events, it is because we are not seeing or hearing with a Biblically conditioned heart and mind.
Those who look at the question scientifically are of course correct. How many times does a belief have to be falsified before reasonable people concede that it is not true? I mean…How many times was Noah wrong over a 120 year period? Then again, the scientific mind rejects the truth of the story. The naturalistic mind doesn’t accept transcendent Being or truth. Therefore it is pointless to engage such minds with silly notions like the Second Coming. The mind and heart of faith sees as virtually inescapable the truth of what Stephen says. And there is abundant confirmatory evidence. Those who see God’s messages as informational will understandably be pretty cynical. Those who see through current events how helpless and feckless humankind’s most brilliant minds are in the face of unspeakable, escalating evil will, if they listen carefully, hear and respond to God’s increasingly clear voice.
Nathan, I agree with you one hundred percent and Stephen as well
When will Jesus return?
Jesus, of course, answered the question the first time it was asked.
Jesus told his disciples that they should pay no attention to a collapsing empire, to wars and rumors of wars, or to a time of trouble such as never was, as none of these experiences is related to his return.
Rather, Jesus declared that his return will be like any other all-too-ordinary day. The second coming will be a totally unexpected event, which means those longing most for his return will be just as startled as those who don’t know his name.
We are unwilling to settle for not knowing.
It is a very old story.
We are as beguiled by the serpent promising us the knowledge of the Gods as our mother Eve herself.
And we trudge forward believing we can actually prepare for Jesus’ return, like every other citizen of Babylon, drunk with the wrathful wine of spiritual fornication, sensing that we are making ourselves alive when there is no life in us apart from that which God creates moment by moment.
We are awaiting the liberating shout of the First Angel of Revelation 14. And even that is not the trumpet herald of Jesus’ coming.
As Jon Pauline, contemporary Seventh-day Adventism’s most prolific author on Revelation notes in the introduction to his devotional book, The Gospel from Patmos, the only sign of Jesus coming is Jesus coming (Matt 24).
The truth of this is why the saints are patient, holding to God’s commanding promises with Jesus’ faith.
I wonder if Mr. Calahan is aware of the fact that the Great Green Spaghetti Monster (GGSM) is secretly conspiring with all human vampires to become the supreme ruler of the world by mind control. But, of course, since it is being kept a secret, it could be happening right now and none of us would know that the GGSM and his minions are really in charge. If Mr. Calahan questions the existence of the GGSM and his conspiracy to control the world, I would ask that he refute it.
Its an oldie, but a goodie, Erv: “Just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you!” Which is a standard SDA attitude ever since Adventist paranoia of Rome was invented. Stephen F has simply reiterated the idea that the world is as bad as its ever been, can’t imagine it being any worse, etc etc. Ask the Albigenses if things were better in their day. Oh sorry, you cant, they were all wiped out, man, woman and child, in 1200 or thereabouts. By a Crusade of Pope someone or other, and the army of Phillip the Fair. Yes, there are periods of earth’s history where things were far, far worse than they are now.
And yet, Earl has a point. Ervin, if you can find as credible a reference as Prof Carroll Quigley, ‘Tragedy and Hope’ (the one who taught history to W J Clinton at Gerogetown) for your GGSM, then you may have a point. But Earl can quote Quigley regarding ‘the Elite’ where he says, ‘I know of the existence of this group, I have studied their secret papers, and the only thing in their program that I disagree with is that they choose to remain secret.’
Despite that, the tendency for folks to disbelieve conspiracy theories, such as Earl’s, are dismissed, not for lack of evidence, but for the huge disruption it makes to one’s sense of well-being and to the dominant paradigm that the same Elites would have us believe. As Benjamin Disraeli said, ‘things are not as they are imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.’
Serge.
May I remind you that the second coming may not have to do with how wicked humans are, since they have always been. What has drastically changed in this age is the technology to kill more people than ever in the history of the world. We are now able to destroy ourselves. I think it was so at the time of Noah (before humans had spread around the planet). They would have destroyed themselves and Satan would have won. Noah and his family were all that were left to communicate with God.
Our technology has also given us immense opportunities to spread both good and evil–the message of salvation and the message of darkness. It has never been this way before. If George Washington and one of the Pharoahs were to view today’s world, they would be equally shocked. All this has happened in the last one years out of the many thousands of the past.
I meant It has all happened in the last one hundred years!
Almost all SDAs and christians are concerned, and perhaps worried, about when Jesus will return. Perhaps worried because the prediction is that the event will be preceded by a time of trouble; and perhaps by the fear that they may not be ready for the event. By now many millions are tired looking and waiting; and many more millions are wondering if they are looking and looking in the correct direction or for the right phenomenon.. It is interesting to note that we are talking about the return of Jesus, and when Jesus was asked about the time of His return, he himself did not know. He did not know , but he went on to give signs of the event. Is that not strange? Because of the nature of the signs he gave, it was, and is difficult for anyone to use these signs to predict his return. There have always been wars and famines and marrying and drinking. There have always been earthquakes and eclipses and other celestial phenomena. Which of these are signs of the second coming? He will come as a thief; but every eye shall see him. Every eye does not see a thief.
The situation becomes more difficult when people mix up and confuse prophecies in Joel and Isaiah in the Old Testament with Apocalyptic teachings in the New Testament, teaching that all of them are about the return of Jesus. Add to all this we have the artists’ opinion of scenes of the coming with hosts of shining angels, and the dramatization of the event by Mrs White in her books. What are people looking for?
Nathaniel,
Central to this topic, though rarely mentioned, is not the issue of getting ready, but BEING ready. That is a condition that can be entered into only by complete dependence on the redeeming mercy of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us. Our relationship with the Holy Spirit is what fills us with the peace we need to remain calm and secure amid the troubles of life that surround us and give others an example to follow so they will want to love God. Unfortunately, too many refuse to enter into that relationship with God. Instead, they get all wrapped-up in debates about end-time events and where to put prophetic events on their timeline of the last days. By doing this they turn their faith experience into an utterly fruitless and frustrating waste of their time because they are producing no results for the Kingdom of God and putting their own salvation at-risk.
The advice I give to my people follows in the outlook of brother Ervin Taylor, given above. Live soberly and conscientiously, trusting in the mercies of God every day, and you cannot go wrong. It is clear that we do not understand what is meant by “soon” in the context of the second coming, and it is time we stop counting days and years, and do the sensible thing – live responsibly. Those preachers on the radio and TV who are giving the impression that they are authority on prophecy are only a bunch of speculators. What is clear is that they are unable, and perhaps incompetent, to unravel the maze of figures and symbols holding the correct interpretation of the prophetic messages. Sadly, there are too many people led away by their glamour.
Almost all of us are concerned and tired about the suffering and destruction around us and we long for the end of it; but we do not know what is in the mind of God.In the meantime let us follow the advice of Jesus, and see after the needs of those around us – the victims of sickness and vice and greed and ignorance and religious exploitation. We who are liberated owe a debt to these unfortunate and helpless ones.
I understand what you are saying, Nathaniel, and don’t necessarily disagree. But sometimes in history and in our lives there are events and circumstances where “living soberly and conscientiously is simply inadequate. Imagine being in the midst of landing on the beaches of Normandy and hearing your commanding officer utter the immortal, inspired words, “Men, live soberly and conscientiously.”
I think you’re missing Stephen’s point. He is looking over the horizon of our quotidian, insulated middle class lives in the West and seeing inescapable realities that portend imminent, cataclysmic change. I don’t think he’s crying “wolf.” Do you?
Well noted, Nathaniel, human inability to clarify the future in any detail by reading scripture.
A helpful addition, William, regarding the source of peace and calm and security though I’m hesitant about our ability to put our own salvation at risk.
What we seem to be discussing is an artifact of humanity. Not knowing is fertile ground for nonsense. http://www.amazon.com/Nonsense-Power-Knowing-Jamie-Holmes/dp/0385348371
And sometimes a good deal more. http://www.amazon.com/Suspicious-Minds-Believe-Conspiracy-Theories/dp/1472915615
Is it not time to take Jesus at his word and accept Jesus’ simple, unambiguous, authoritative, blatant effort to save us from ourselves before he saves us for eternity? Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
And … 37ff. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Yet like mother Eve, we are so easily beguiled by the temptation to believe we can know the present.
Resolving historical Seventh-day Adventism is beyond pointing out its humanity or waiting for its present leadership to speak.
Where do we go from here?
Perhaps ‘go’ is a misnomer. Forgive me.
We so want to progress, to become, to prevail.
Is this the echo of the Serpent’s promises or is the Serpent a mirage of our own making?
Or is this desire the image of God that is created in us?
Perhaps to seek to understand ourselves is best sensed by seeking to understand the Gospel of Jesus.
Yet we inevitably seek to fit the Gospel of Jesus to our beingness.
Is this not the Three Angels’ prophecy? Is humanity by reason of being human not described by the Second Angel? Are we not all living in the confusion that is Babylon? Is this not John’s point?
And if so, our destiny already is, upon the clarifying shout of the First Angel, worshiping our creator in utter selflessness, or so it seems.
And it is this worship that empowers the patience rather than the flurry of our future sainthood, in which we rest in the comfort of the commanding promises of God with the faith of Jesus himself measured to us rather than self-conjured from within us, Paul explains.
In the meantime, waiting for the First Angel’s shout, how might we live?
Surely not looking for signs of Jesus return as though we can Babel our want to heaven.
Bill,
If ‘go’ is a misnomer, what did Jesus mean when He told His followers to go to the uttermost parts of the world proclaiming the good news of salvation? Please, don’t get so lost in dissecting the messages of the angels that you let the dissecting distract you from actually going and proclaiming. Too many of our fellow Adventists have confused arguing about the messages of the angels with actually proclaiming the Gospel and become immobile, ineffective, noise-making wasters of the oxygen God gives them.
The attention Adventists devote to the second advent is amusing, if not sad. For two thousand years some people in every generation have determined a need for deliverance and gleaned atmospheric and turmoil signs of its immediate occurrence. Pryor to that the Israelites, the chosen people of God, suffering monstrous sufferings throughout their history, never got a break from Him. They were continually brutalized, in spite of their God connection, by invasions, held in captivity away from home including in Egypt and Babylon, with such extreme results ten of the tribes disappeared from the world. God’s dwelling place, the temple in Jerusalem was smashed on more than one occasion, still in ruins to this day.
How did they handle the despair? By pining for deliverance via a Messiah who never came
When you claim to be chosen by God, the track record shows there is no benefit, only shattered hopes. It testifies to the painful truth God doesn’t choose anyone. It is imagined by the parties who expect to be beneficiaries of the relationship.
Good religion promotes good myths and allegories. Converting them to real time expectations creates bad religion. Even more, it transforms them to lies. Adventist history illustrates that process. The good Millerites were wrong. Instead of admitting it they abandoned honesty and created a farfetched face saving scenario. It is a dishonest Adventist Church perpetuation to this day, proven wrong by history.
Why is attention given the second advent sad?. It consumes energy and resources that could be dedicated to promoting the gospel of Christ as a redefinition of the church. And it isn’t true by any measure.
I’ve been saying for a long time that Adventism dwells in a soundproof chamber. It started so the world wouldn’t pollute the saints. But now nobody outside of Adventism has ears for what it has to say. So the loyal Adventists are content to mutter and mumble among themselves about the second coming while staring intently at their navels. If the Adventist thesis about the second coming were for Martin Luther to nail to the church door, it would be an empty sheet, not the 78 he posted. If there was a track record of prophecy fulfillment as predicted by the Millerites, it would be entirely different.
It is time for Adventism to bust down the doors of its secret chamber and find a message that attracts. Does it to need abandon the proposition of the second coming? No, just put it way back on the burner of hope, like most other Christian do.
But it needs to confess its sin in promoting a visibly failed scenario as if error never happened. If the second advent occurs, it won’t be by the SDA playbook. That is, Adventism isn’t special, has absolutely no insight on what will be.
I agree with Stephen–you are living in another world if you do not recognize the present state of this one. Thousands of years may have gone by, but none like we are experiencing now–not just in wickedness but its potential. We have the ability to destroy ourselves. Our technology has change drastically in the last one hundred years. Communication has changed so that we can be in touch with just about everyone around the world. Humans have the ability to kill anyone, anywhere at any time.
If this is not a reason for Christ’s return to fulfill His promise, then I don’t know what is. The Bible says the delay is that more may be saved. Therefore, the coming must be before there are no more to be saved!
Bugs,
You’re altering the subject somewhat…which is OK…but, unless you have some direct prophetic insight into the future, how can you know that whatever happens in the future will not happen by the Adventist playbook?
But back to the questions, what makes you think that your fellow man is wise enough to get off of the road on which he appears to have paved for himself and is now traveling? Never mind Adventism, just address that question.
Bugs,
Our hope is to be with Jesus. He has promised it will be soon. Remember His promise to the thief on the cross?
This body of death we inhabit is the foretaste of true life. But death is such drag. We are always burying our loved ones. We are always seeing the consequences of choosing disobedience. In saying ‘no’ to God, we have said ‘no’ to life.
But God in Jesus Christ has said, ‘yes’ to God. He has risen from the dead. If we believe in Him, our hope has a firm foundation.
The world is in hospice Bugs, not the church. Jesus is its chaplain. Let’s help our Lord with His work.
William, the world has always been in hospice, (that makes my point) in fact probably less so now than ever. Read the history of the world, the atrocities, wars, invasions, mayhem and horrendous suffering of humanity, most of which makes a few head chopping of our time as insignificant in comparison.
I have no dispute with your theolgizing as a faith explanation of conditions and solutions. Its’s called hope.
There is no evidence of divine intervention ever in history as deliverance for people. To wish it is fine, to expect it is hope misapplied. Christ appeared to encourage living well now and leaving details of what is to follow in the hands of a God of love.
Bugs,
Concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ you have written somewhere; we can’t know. i.e. We can’t know if the body was stolen away by the disciples or Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. It does appear to be a ‘either’ ‘or’ dilemma.
Above you write: “There is no evidence of divine intervention ever in history as deliverance for people.”
But how can we say ‘ever’ if we don’t know?
To argue almost everybody chose to believe Jesus rose from the dead is argumentum ad populum. It does not mean the evidence was not persuasive. Remember doubting Thomas? The behavior of the disciples after the resurrection does not make them look like conspiratorial shysters. They believed He rose from the dead and they saw Him die on the cross.
Yes, William Abbot, it can’t be known. So believers “act as if,” a version of argumentum ad populum since there is no conclusive evidence as to why the grave was empty. At its outset there are conflicting accounts in the NT over the event of its discovery.
“Act as if” is your practice, as well as for every Christian. You assume it is true and you bolster your belief on the “eyewitness” accounts of those who saw him. Faith does fine without conclusive evidence. Yes, you could be a believer victim of a scam perpetrated by the disappointed friends of Jesus. It doesn’t matter. “Act as if” rules because you want it to be true. Most religions are built on that premise.
As to divine intervention for deliverance in history, please provide an example. It never happened to the Israelites in their travails throughout their history. The opportunity for God to intervene has ever been available in the face of horrendous human suffering. For instance, why didn’t he intervene for his “chosen” people during the holocaust? Unfortunately for you, God is most notable by his absence.
“Act as if” applies to the disciples who don’t seem to be plotters in any sense. They became true believers. A religion was born out of a Great Disappointment.
Bugs,
If the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth occurred, then it was an ‘intervention’ on behalf of Israel. Could it have happened? Might it have happened? Are you sincere when you say “we can’t know?” Or are you really in the “probably didn’t happen” camp? Which is functionally, “It didn’t happen” You know, ‘belief.’ It does boil down to what you believe, doesn’t it? How do you weigh the evidence?
I’m comfortable with ol’ Socrates – I don’t ‘know’ hardly anything myself.
What do you believe about the resurrection?
The misconceptions relating to the ‘return’ of Jesus are based partly on his promise in John 14.1-3 ‘I will come again… and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’ At that point, most folks stop reading. But if one were to read on for the next few chapters, one would understand precisely what he meant in those first few verses. And all this woebegone talk about how ‘things can’t possibly get any worse, it all has to end next week,’ etc will be put into perspective and we can all live happily ever after. At least we will be free of the kind of ‘chicken little’ talk which Stephen has reiterated for us here.
Interestingly, i haven’t chronicled the insertion above because of my claiming the imminent return of our Christ, nor of a fear for the future, for my life is in it’s last stages, and i have time to think more than ever before . For i know in whom i believe and have placed myself in His loving care and keeping. But i’m very concerned that most are so busy in their daily lives, trying to provide for their families, and the younger generations questioning their ability to make it happen, with the same opportunities their parents had, and are just losing interest in life being a great thing for them, and so are drifting with the
breeze, letting it all hang out, grabbing satisfaction for the current day, and excluding from their minds
the harbingers of the future. Being history oriented for life, and a keen observer, i foresee the events of
man, and the threat to human society, is as i have presented it. It is a reality of powerful world godless groups, seeking to seize control of the masses, the ultimate prize of Earth. i was a young man during WWII, experienced the aftermath of the Holocaust, in person. Yet there are those who state it never happened. When leading up to it and until 1946, the Earth lost estimates of at least fifty million (50) lives
to murder and atrocities, from 1900 – 1946. Now with 5% of the Elite controlling 95% of global assets, the time is ripe for them to rearrange the world, as they so desire. It is happening.
Serge,
Indeed, we tend to hear in isolation … listening to advocates … or advocating ourselves … fitting biblical sentences into our own story in some desperate effort to validate a self-constructed meaning for our lives. It is human of us to do so. Mother Eve’s genes swim in us in this regard.
Thank you for urging us not to ever stop with a verse, or even a chapter, but to experience the whole of the history, the story, the event, in Scripture. And as I did, three chapters later the summary … “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
It is no surprise that this same John describes in his Revelation of Jesus the saints as being patient.
There is no hurry in patience because there is no need for hurry because we are beyond altering our future. John reminds us that the everlasting gospel calls us to simply worship our creator who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. To worship is to defer in every aspect our future to whom we worship. By faith.
Amen, Bill. And thanks for highlighting one of the most reassuring texts in all the Bible. Its worth memorising and repeating ad infinitum: “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
Come now, William, you read exactly what I wrote: “There is no evidence of divine intervention ever in history as deliverance for people.” Your posit is a religious interpretation of “deliverance.” Show me actual record of divine interruption to spare human suffering in the siege of Stalingrad, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the roman invasion of the Qumran people, the sackings of Jerusalem, or any of the millions of horrible events in human history that could have used supernatural interposition. You didn’t, you can’t, because there isn’t any.
Since your God is blind to human suffering you are left only with the Adam and Even gambit where we have only ourselves to blame (sin). There is a syndrome among abused women who are loathe to blame the abuser feeling they are at fault. I think that ailment applies with your version of God and man.
I don’t believe anything about the resurrection. My faith doesn’t depend on it. So I really don’t care. I have no argument with you as to your belief. My personal faith that God/Jesus is my best bud stems from Christ’s teachings that God likes me. That I’m not a deviant from perfection, but a teachable being on how to receive and reflect love.
I’m not the least worried about my “soul.” It is in good hands, not in those of the fickle, Superguy. You can properly say I “act as if,” and you would be right. My difference from you is that I have daily evidence displayed to me by people reflecting Jesus/God of love.
If Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead. If He was God. Then He certainly can’t be accused of turning a blind eye to the history of human suffering. He makes human suffering central to Himself.
If Jesus is your best bud. You surely have some interest in his history. That’s how friends get acquainted.
I think the central teaching of Jesus Christ is that God liked Him. Jesus and God are best buds. Are you sure God chose you? If Jesus just had a bad day we are not going to get much inspiration looking at Him. He thought He was saving the world.
What do you believe about history Bugs? The history of resurrection.
William Abbott, in spite of your intense desire for there to be a “history of resurrection,” there isn’t any. No Roman records, no eyewitnesses, no search elsewhere for a body, no interview of the ladies at the tomb, no first party accounts (what records there are were faith records likely written years after the event). What there is a faith account about it. It isn’t history. Now that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or did happen. It is important to know that virtually every belief system is myth based.
“If your son asks for bread, do you give him a stone?” I’m satisfied that every human who has ever lived has asked for deliverance, but rocks is all they/we have ever received. Nothing, even. Human fathers are more kind than the Christian version of the God of Salvation.
Earl is correct about the incorporation, the business, of church. It started with Paul as the great administrator, the inventor and codifier of dogma, who by the way, never mentions the resurrection, just the last supper. It has been refined, tuned and turned into a collective multibillion dollar business much like the temple in Jerusalem. In my estimation it has nothing to do with the real teachings of Christ. I’m not discounting the religious experience of Christians ensnared by this deceit who assume it is all OK. They live “as if it is” true. Rescuing them isn’t necessary, it can’t be done. God is their best bud, too, even if they don’t know it.
Bugs,
No history!! That is a singular opinion Mr. Boshell! Historians go with what they got. And we got a lot. Faith accounts have NO credibility? Secular historians have been picking over the gospels for two hundred years.
Something happened!! There was no Jesus of Nazareth? We can know nothing for sure, okay. But the probability that there was a Jesus of Nazareth is high. High probability like the sun will come up tomorrow.
He was crucified and laid in a tomb, Joseph of Arimethia’s tomb. Something happened. The body is not there. It’s history. Go with what you got.
Human fathers are more kind than the Christian version of the God of Salvation. Nietzsche hated the God of the Jews too. He said it was a religion fit only for slaves, to comfort them.
Wm. Abbot, you ask what do you believe of the resurrection, pardon my intrusion. i believe Larry and Serge have come to the belief that a resurrection as depicted in the Bible, may not be the the truth of the Creators plan for mankind. Yet the attitudes of both gentlemen express respect and love of themselves, and to every soul. This is truly an example of the “fruit of the Spirit”. And by this expression they have found the peace that Jesus speaks of. As far as physical suffering, all mankind has endured much greater gut wrenching pain and suffering, by billions of souls, as that of the Savior, for some ….
millions of years?? And without any intervention of a Holy loving Creator, to lessen, or rescue. They have a point of evidence that can’t be denied. And the churches have made a business of fleecing their parishioners, by providing the leadership hierarchy, with lucrative lifetime jobs, and prestige. Just as the “Priesthood, Shaman’s, and Con-men”. It isn’t difficult to understand the cynicism of “thinking people”. Coming to true peace of soul, in a destructive world, is a worthwhile understanding. The question is where does the attributes of love and peace originate?? The best reference is to the historical story, tale, myth, allegorical, truth of the life of a man with the name of Jesus of Nazareth. i have come to peace of mind, by recognition that there is intelligence in the universe, and from it, comes love and peace of understanding.
Personal peace of mind doesn’t alleviate the suffering in the world and the need for God to bring an end to it.
You wrote: “Yet the attitudes of both gentlemen express respect and love of themselves, and to every soul.”
That may be true. But do they desire the “end” to come so that evil will finally be destroyed? Or do they think evil and suffering plays a part in the journey to personal peace? That may be akin to saying: “Let us do evil that good may come”.
DD, of course an end of the misery part of life is one of my wishes. But the collective wishes of billons of people throughout history haven’t moved it one inch closer. The evidence is that the only escape is death. And that doesn’t seem about to change. One can dream, that is what faith is.
“Or do they think evil and suffering plays a part in the journey to personal peace? That may be akin to saying: ‘Let us do evil that good may come’.” I totally reject that posit on your part. I confess that I don’t know why there is “evil.” Nor do I think anyone does. All speculations live in the mind only, and have versions created by every faith and religion, most of whom have contradictory explanations claimed as the “truth.” Christ never offered any explanation.
Bugs, you wrote: “I confess that I don’t know why there is “evil.” Nor do I think anyone does.”
And: “Christ never offered any explanation.”
Throughout the history of God’s involvement with mankind, the Spirit of Christ has made manifest, or given “explanation” of all the truth necessary for mankind to understand their purpose within it creation. It is all recorded in the Holy Scriptures, which includes the New Testament. Christ not only taught the people that which we now have in the New Testament Gospels, He also revealed Himself throughout the Old Testament. Therefore, to say Christ never offered an explanation regarding the existence of evil, would be neglecting the whole of the Scriptures as we now have them. It also may be a form of denying Him.
Jesus Christ was the explanation.
Generalities are so easy. Specifics not so much. Provide specifics. Outside of imagination, that is.
The crucified and risen Jesus Christ is the explanation. If He rose from the dead He is Whom He is; the Holy One of Israel. Emmanuel – God with us.
He has suffered and died. He becomes the answer to suffering and death. It is beyond text Bugs. Like those pictures you take. Shall I write a glowing descriptions of one of your photographs? Would it be adequate? I shall tell them to look for themselves.
You can’t debate a picture or a person, Bugs. Behold the risen Christ!
This is a nice post, and thank you, Earl, for it. But I think you may have misunderstood my take on resurrection a little. I can’t speak for Bugs, but he is likely to differ from me because I, admittedly, do like to theologicratize, to torture a word that may not be a word.
The reason I like to tease these ideas out of the morass of human interpretations of the Bible, NT in particular, is because of one simple fact: someone, but more likely ones, wrote it. And I find it interesting, at the very least, to try to work out who they were and their motivation etc etc. The NT ideas began with the OT, were reworked through a few hundred intertestamental years, and found voice in the NT, and a host of books not ultimately included in the canon, due to the fairly arbitrary process adopted by the councils which made the final decisions. The book of Enoch, discussed elsewhere, is a prime example.
The idea of resurrection in the NT is the coming into awareness, through the hearing of the ‘still small voice’ that one is a child of God. This is all we need to know. Who we are, a love-child of God. Jesus says of these, THEY SHALL NEVER DIE. (Also, God is not God of the dead but of the living). Material bodies are irrelevant, and forever remain irrelevant. Raising of corpses is not resurrection (1Cor 15).
And a small word on myth. Myths are the deepest truths of combined human experience over time. To belittle them by a literalist approach is loss.
As someone wrote earlier: “We will all see him at the moment of our last breath. There should be no concern of a Second Coming before that time.”
The first part is correct. The second part all depends on how much one desires to be with the Lord. If life is so perfect and without cares, why would anyone want to leave this earth?
But, without going into all the gruesome details of misery and wickedness, together with all the cruelty towards animals, one can only wish and hope the existence of this whole physical creation would finally come to an end—immediately. But, unfortunately some are living in a dream world, encased in their bubble, created by their own imaginations and delusions of “heaven on earth”.
Personally, for the sake of suffering animals and those being persecuted by the wicked, I want Jesus to “appear” immediately!
It is interesting to me how some have interpreted this piece as an opinion that things cannot get worse when in fact I am suggesting the exact opposite.
I am of course suggesting that the way that things are represent an indication that things will probably get much worse.
STEPHEN, yes, evil is trending ever more progressive as we near the end of days of peace through out the Earth. The traditional method of change is war, perhaps again, globally. Usually it comes in order to change the status quo. This time it will be to contain the Middle East to the Middle East. Russia growls, but the spirit of Russia is not what it use to be, now, the people wish to live, including Putin. We have on Earth Nuclear powers that will not make a first sneak strike, but then there is Iran that would use the H Bomb in a minute should they had the expertise to do so, their religion demands it. Then you have the anomaly of North Korea, which is a blithering idiot, that has bamboozled the West for 50 years, that may
finally get their bluff called.
DD, i would like nothing more than see our Lord Jesus appear today, on the horizon, raising those in the “BOOK OF LIFE”. There is an Almighty in the Cosmos, but we aren’t privy to His game plan. Recognize their are approx 5 billion living souls on Earth, who know not the benefits of the Christian experience.
I disagree that evil is trending more progressive. Read again the history of the world and absorb the atrocities enacted without end, some so unimaginably traumatizingly horrible one can’t think about them and get a good night’s rest. It is bad enough now, but if god didn’t rescue the people in those instances, when whole cities were wiped out with blood literally running through the streets, it is foolish to think he is waiting for things to get really bad and this is the day.
God missed his best chance, up to now, to rescue humanity from mayhem. Maybe he never will? Yes, things can get worse, but there is some serious catching up to do to surpass the horried times of the past, if that is what he is waiting for.
Materially speaking the world is growing richer, healthier and freer. Really its unprecedented – the peace and prosperity we enjoy now compared to the two World Wars and the communist terrors. 35 Million Chinese died in Mao’s Great Leap Forward 1958 – 1961. Usually its just called the Great Famine these days. Stalin’s purges killed about that many souls too. WWI and II caused scores of millions of deaths. The Armenia, The Holocaust, Cambodia, etc. There were over one-hundred million war & revolutionary related premature deaths between 1914 and 1974. One hundred years ago 20% of all children born died before the age of five – in the United States. It was far higher in most of the rest of the world.
Jesus’ coming is near. Because the Scripture always portrays it as near. Scripture is our authority. The signs of the times are always grim.
Bugs, you wrote: “I disagree that evil is trending more progressive.”
Before each world war broke out, wouldn’t the people have been under the same impression? And then hell breaks loose; and now we have recorded history showing atrocities as described by William A. What’s to stop that from happening on a much grander scale?
We have around 7 billion people on the earth now; what kind of “evil” would you think earth would experience should anarchy engulf the whole world now? Remember, those who are united in an evil cause will attack those who are not on their side. Whichever side we’re on determines whether we are the sufferers, or the persecutors.
Mr Boshell incorrectly says (and rather presumptuously I might add) that: “It started with Paul as the great administrator, the inventor and codifier of dogma, who by the way, never mentions the resurrection, just the last supper.”
————
Mr Boshell may have missed 1Corintians 15 (among other passages) where Paul writes about the resurrection. Can I say that many of those who have left Adventism in one way or another, and sadly so, at their own peril, have never fully grasped what Adventists believe and why we believe our sound biblical teachings? I see it on these boards quite often, and elsewhere. The sad thing about this is that they’ve left Adventism without fully understanding these teachings and yet go around accusing us of navel gazing when they themselves have never fully understood (or believed) what that falsely accuse us of gazing at. How sad.
correction: what “they” falsely accuse us of gazing at
Yes, Tervor, I wandered off the reservation in my aside about Paul and his statements about the resurrection. Thank you for your correction. I misspoke. It was the virgin birth he barely touches on.
However your musing about those leaving Adventism ” sadly so, at their own peril, have never fully grasped what Adventists believe and why we believe our sound biblical teachings?” I was born, educated in the system, became a minister and academy Bible teacher and I left because I fully grasped Adventist teachings and that is precisely why I departed. Leaving Adventism isn’t a “sad” thing. My life improved upon departure.
It is very egotistical, Trevor, for you to think that the ideal stance is for one to be SDA. No one is a copy of you. You like it, that is fine with me. But there are many ways to live a life, Adventism, just only one. I have a grandson, a national champion gymnast, just accepted as one of twenty at Ohio State in their gymnastic program. When I left Adventism, I happily rescued my kids from it. My grandson had years of practice, including virtually every Saturday. My son is a captain for Alaska Airlines, a profession virtually unavailable to Sabbath keepers.
Me and my family vacated the Adventist sound proof chamber and it was a great move.
Mr Foster mentions Africa and an example of parts of the world that is going through perilous times: the terrorist attacks, wars, the exploitation and repercussions of colonialism, together with dodgy governments, regimes and dictatorships and the usual sin – that Africa too is no exception to, are rife and goes without saying. The reality is that in these parts of the world many are turning their hearts to God for a way out whilst in the ‘First World’ they are turning their backs on God.
Worse still we hear of news in Africa of French and European Union (peacekeeping) troops that are stationed there, raping and abusing women and children, including a 7-year-old who performed sexual acts in exchange for water and cookies (usatoday news website). Perilous time indeed. Some have no option but to pray Jesus comes soon. Like they say there: “Ujesu uyeza masinyane.”
It is no secret that such people turn to a lifeline when their present life offers no other hope. The preachers hold out hope and they grab it, believing it will assure them of a happy future life. How is that different from the “Rice Christians” or Cargo Cults? When one is in a pit, either of his own making or his present situation, he will grab whatever is offered him. It could be the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses or Islam. Psych 101.
Elaine, embracing mainstream Christianity as a “lifeline” is as irrational as embracing the faiths you refer to. . Also, Christianity started as a cult, with all the features cults have today. I find it laughable when fundamentalists run down “cults” like the Witnesses, Mormons etc when their own faith had its roots in a cult.
One last reference to progressive evil atrocities forthcoming. Man has used every tool of making war and killing. Currently there are war systems of mass destruction that the general public knows nothing
of. The USA, alone, is the largest manufacturer of tools of war for mass destruction the world has ever known, in it’s secretive ventures in outlying desert locations. Nearly 30% of Utah, developing anthrax and other biologicals for the past 70 years. Also in several countries in Africa/ biologicals such as Ebola, Bubonic plague, and various gasses and poisons. Its Nuclear stockpile of various types of local, and continental destroying devices. They will be used. No weapons to be converted to plowshares.
The questions posed in the column remain unanswered by those who are skeptical with regard to apocalyptic Biblical prophecy.
Specifically, given what we have seen in the realm of human social relations in our lifetimes, how can anyone who is remotely familiar with the various threats to mass human disease, suffering, pestilence, war, and death—many of which are unprecedented in human history—believe that these threats will somehow diminish in danger or scale in the future?
Do some suppose that mankind is now sufficiently intelligent, or wise enough, or good enough to avoid the violence and hatred that have characterized most of human history?
That question can be posed in reverse, Stephen. What if, eg, the catastrophes which Earl predicts come to pass? The Elite, who have the means since they control so much of everything (yes they do), put into operation their plan to save the earth from extinction by initiating a major cull of the earth’s population. Disease, famine, war……. all are used deliberately to bring down earth’s population to the desired 500 million. Now that would be a time of trouble such as never was. But all initiated by man, to achieve man’s goals of ‘sustainability.’ Gaia lives, many humans perish.
And yet, the second coming, as popularly imagined, is not ushered in. After the dust settles, the 500 million survivors pick up the pieces and the new order carries on as best they can. Back to Middle ages economies, etc, but with C21 technology. Quite efficient, potentially.
Its as if the Apocalypse happens, but without the climax. Apocalyptus interruptus. This scenario is just as plausible as the familiar SDA version of ‘the sky is falling,’ better ‘get ready.’ Where does this leave your eschatology? I think that might be a good time to remember, ‘fear not him that can destroy the body…’
The most well-reasoned appreciation for and of the resurrection of Jesus that I’ve read recently is found in Timothy Keller’s, ‘The Reason for God: Belief in the Age of Skepticism’ http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/1594483493/
Paul boldly makes clear to the Corinthians that more than 500 people are known to have witnessed the risen Jesus and on that basis he invites doubters to personally corroborate the story of the risen Jesus with the then-living personal witnesses.
All of this happened before the first of the gospels were written. The evidence is counter culture, whether Jewish or Greek. The story of the Resurrection is not dependent on hearsay of a small group, let alone one or two. Nor was it gradually imagined over centuries of need, if you will.
Keller’s books is a wonderful read. And even when I came against the occasional items I didn’t quite buy into, I wanted to buy into them because Keller is so reassuring.
I’m not suggesting Keller will ‘convert’ anyone doubting Jesus Resurrection; I am saying that in reading his thoughts I much more deeply sensed a certain permission to believe, if you will. And I think every thinker in this thread will sense the same permission as well if they care to read what Keller reports.
Are Adventists and Pessimists the same? Or, do all other religions see the future so bleak?
Years ago, Elaine, I received a Master of Divinity degree from a Methodist Seminary in Denver, CO. I became aware there that religion functioned different for other churches than what I was accustomed to. A bit hard to quantify, but, it seemed to function as an asset to life, not a dark bludgeon, a way of thinking about things that benefited daily life. By then I was so tired of religion in general I wasn’t tempted to become a Methodist minister.
I’ve often thought had I started ministry outside of Adventism, I might still be a minister (retired) today. I loved the pastoral role which is looked down on in Adventism.
Bugs, you wrote: “A bit hard to quantify, but, it seemed to function as an asset to life, not a dark bludgeon, a way of thinking about things that benefited daily life.”
You mention Methodist. Have you experienced other denominations such as Anglican, Baptists, etc, as to where they stand in regards to doctrinal disputes, as experienced within Adventism?
Also, do you find Adventism tends to be more involved in spiritual matters rather than bodily needs; notwithstanding Adventism’s lack of understanding in human and Godly spirituality?
As far as the “benefits” of daily life, we have no shortage of instruction manuals on how we should conduct our everyday lives; which range from ruling government authorities down to the average Tom Dick and Harry. Do you think your experience with the Methodist denomination lacked in spiritual guidance, or rather, their focus on Christ was not their priority, as would be expected of those who “lead the sheep”, as Christ instructed Peter?
Elaine wrote:
“Are Adventists and Pessimists the same?”
I am an Adventist, though I do no claim to speak for all Adventists. I do see a bleak future apart from God, but then I maintain that God created us, and without God there is neither past nor present not future.
I am not pessimistic about the future with God, rather I seek to be optimistic about what God can do and what he/she/they has/have promised to do. The point of being and Adventist is Hope. Hope that God will intervene and put an end to sin and suffering. That is the point of the Second Advent.
My hundreds of Sunday relatives, whom I love dearly, are more focused on what happens to us individually when we die (Go on to Glory). But if these dear departed souls are forever looking-down on this earth and its turmoil, would that experience not only perpetuate the pain over the consequences of sin? Or would they observe human life down here but no longer care, sort of like the Thornton Wilder play “Our Town”?
Since I usually agree with Bugs, I was puzzled by his statement “I loved the pastoral role which is looked down on in Adventism.” How is the pastoral role looked down on in Adventism? I’ve somehow missed this, but I’m sure that Bugs has a good reason for saying that. I’m trying to come up with an explanation of this comment.. Could Bugs please elaborate.
Ervin, my experience was about 40 year ago, so well may not apply now. I was a pastor for six years (including pastoring the academy church where I taught for two years), four as a hospital chaplain. While a pastor I attended periodic “workers meetings” where we were often told not to waste our time with the members but in fund raising and evangelism. It was openly advocated. We weren’t encouraged not to do funerals or weddings so that function wasn’t attacked. It was always made clear that raising financial goals was the ultimate work of a pastor. Yes, Ingathering at the top of the heap.
Even at the seminary the skills of pastoring weren’t emphasized. They were at the Methodist seminary.
Ervin, your questioning is valid and it seems a minor matter at this point, perhaps only a personal interpretation unshared by others.
I stand by my experience of the difference, the milieu, of Methodism and Adventism that I have outlined here.
Hospital chaplaincy is where malcontents go to escape control by church hierarchy while pastoring patients. That is also a 40 year old opinion.
Elaine Nelson has said in this thread : April 1, 2016 at 9:39 am
“There should be no concern of a Second Coming before that time. BUT, if so, what difference would it make if each day you have lived and loved in the best way you can know.”
On April 4, 2016 at 11:27 am
“Are Adventists and Pessimists the same? Or, do all other religions see the future so bleak?”
On April 4, 2016 at 11:25 am
“The preachers hold out hope and they grab it, believing it will assure them of a happy future life. How is that different from the “Rice Christians” or Cargo Cults?
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. You are wise now listen.
Elaine, this is the test of a healthy eschatology: Is your hope a sanctifying influence on your soul? Are you looking beyond the commotion of this world with the realization that you could soon meet Christ face to face, and are you preparing your heart and soul for that? Are you eager and watchful? Are you filled with joyful hope and expectation? That is the attitude to which Scripture calls us.
Elaine, the Second Coming is not supposed to make you stop what you’re doing to wait for the Lord’s return. And neither should it motivate you to focus all your attention on the events and political developments of this world. Instead, it should prompt you to holiness as you direct your heart toward Christ, whose coming every believer anticipates with joy.
Elaine you asked good questions, you are a wise person, God loves you!
I love you also! Your…
Elaine cont.
Your friend, Sam
P.S.
If you disagree with me, fine!
Because that’s the great thing about
blogging on Adventist Today,
we can disagree and still love and respect
each other!
– Michael Stipe
Thanks, Sam.
I’m not anxiously looking toward death when I will meet my Maker. are you? I have complete peace with the future and live in the present with joy for every day. Am I missing something? I consider “holiness” as an attribute of God, not man. To give and receive love and treat everyone with respect is sufficient. God will take care of the rest.
Serge,
How does the ‘hopeful’ scenario that you hypothesize, of the deaths of billions of people, address the questions posed in the column?
The questions that I posed were actually without regard to prophecy per se. The questions had to do with the probability that mankind, if left to its own literal devices, would not eventually (and perhaps sooner than later) destroy itself—given what we know of man’s technological capacity to do so, and given what we know from demonstrated human nature and documented human history
Another way to approach this is to recognize that my questions (for those who are generally skeptical of Biblical prophecy) have to do with how deep is their faith in their fellow man; and is such faith in their fellow man reasonably (if not objectively) justifiable?
Elaine,
If you are not as pessimistic about the capacity of human beings to avoid human-caused calamity as I am, what does that have to with Adventism? Do you suppose that it is Adventism that causes me to be pessimistic about what I observe in the human condition and in humanity’s willingness/unwillingness and avoid the use of the weapons that it has created?
Correction: …me to be pessimistic about what I observe in the human condition and in humanity’s willingness/unwillingness to avoid the use of the weapons that it has created?
Whether man will destroy himself and the world or the apocalypse described in Revelation caused by God sending plagues to destroy mankind, what difference does it make? Whether one is killed by gun or poison, is there a significant difference? We should all be ready to meet our Maker at any time, not by that described in John’s vision. None of knows what tomorrow will bring, so speaking of the return of Christ as something to prepare for is immaterial. For those who plan to be there, it will be after their death, most likely.
Elaine,
For sake of discussion, get out of prophecy mode. If you note, I only addressed prophecy in the piece with regard to Christ’s eventual return being a relief to practically everyone when it does occur.
My question to you and others who may be skeptical with regard to Biblical prophecy is what chance do you give mankind of figuring its way off of the path to which it is apparently headed if left to its own literal devices? Please address that singular issue.
Elaine wrote:
“God sending plagues to destroy mankind”
I seldom quote from Ellen White, but here I must because so many Adventists seem to have ignored one of her key statements on this question:
“Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose.”
“Already the Spirit of God, insulted, refused, abused, is being withdrawn from the earth. Just as fast as God’s Spirit is taken away, Satan’s cruel work will be done upon land and sea.”
“God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence.”
“The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.”
(This last is in her introduction the the subject of the Plagues in the book Great Controversy.)
Ellen White clearly indicates that the Plagues are the work of Satan and his evil cohort. Sinful humans credit themselves when good things happen, and blame God when bad things happen. This tendency knows no religious affiliation. It is worldwide. It makes God into a demon.
Adventists have been so long interpreting their apocalyptic prophecies according the what is printed in the daily news paper, Stephen, that it is difficult to stop. They have, as you admit, a ‘confirmational bias’ to read the news in the context of their prophecies. ‘Proof’ or at least supporting evidence, is desired. (Forgetting Jesus’ statement that only ‘an evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign). It results in a strange pessimistic optimism….. ‘its so bad, that Jesus HAS to come soon and fix it.’
But maybe you wish to break that nexus, a good thing, and simply ask a question about human nature. Is there cause for pessimism or optimism, given the vast and powerful array of destructive potential built by a humanity which is at war with itself? You curiously refer to the US as ‘the last best hope for mankind.’ That is highly debatable. Why not Sweden, or Australia? China seems able to manage its society fairly well, on the face of things. The US has wreaked a hell of a lot of destruction on parts of the Middle East in the past fifteen years. (was this accidental, btw, or is the current mayhem there part of a larger plan, as per Earl’s scenario?)
I don’t see cause for either optimism or pessimism. Qu’est sera, sera.
Daniel 12 says, ‘the wise shall understand…’ and they know that the spiritual realm they inhabit is perfectly safe and immune from the goings on in the material realm. ‘Be of good cheer… I have overcome…
Well Serge, let’s start where we probably somewhat agree. I don’t believe that America is necessarily the last best hope because, although I love our Constitution and much of our culture, I don’t believe that America is even nearly as civilized as our neighbors to the north. If fact I firmly believe that if Canada was geographically located where Mexico is, they would have to build a wall to keep Americans out.
I digress. The point is that common sense—not prophecy, but common sense—should tell you that mankind would eventually annihilate itself if left to its own literal devices. Now I have no idea how that fits into your non-material paradigm, but given what we can observe of human nature and what we have observed of human history, pessimism is realism.
Correction: In fact I firmly believe that if Canada was geographically located where Mexico…
“… seeing they see not… hearing they hear not…”
No Serge, I think I think the ‘real problem’ is that there are people who, perhaps unlike you, take Matthew 24 seriously, if not literally; and believe that Jesus was actually speaking to and for the last generation, whoever they/we may be.
Again, to the extent that this reality fits into your paradigm, it’s all good. I simply have no knowledge if it does or not; but I doubt it.
Don’t you believe that things can be totally spiritual, yet tangible and visible, simultaneously? I do. If God chooses to reveal Himself or any spiritual reality in a visible and tangible form to humanity, wouldn’t that be within His capacity to do so; and wouldn’t that be His prerogative?
I may not completely understand you Serge, but that which I read from you seems to perpetually present a false choice.
Not a false choice, Stephen. I just make no attempt to have ‘the best of both worlds.’ I would say, ‘between us, there is a great gulf, fixed.’
Oh, it’s a false choice all right; because you are persistently attempting to put God in a box in which He cannot manifest Himself or any spiritual reality, in any form, or in no form, visibly or invisibly, tangibly or intangibly.
We can therefore also agree that “between us, there is a gulf, fixed.” Matthew 24 is speaking to the last generation. You Serge perhaps should come to grips with verses 21, 22, 27, 30 and 42.
Its not that I haven’t answered your misguided questions, Stephen, you just don’t understand the answer. You prove that by stating that relating Matt 24 to Jesus statement re Abom of des is a tangent! Jesus makes it front and centre. He sets it as the context for all that follows. I am suggesting that when you begin to understand what he means by this (and Matthew does say, let the reader understand), then the verses you have taken out of this context, and ask me to make sense of them within your inappropriate SDA inspired context, will suddenly become clear.
Until you are willing to do that amount of study, rather than merely repeat SDA ‘contextual island’ type justification for the 1844 IJ heresy, there is no ground for discussion here.
One small question: where in Matt 24 does Jesus say, out loud or cryptically, that the reader can expect two fulfilments of his words? one in AD 70 and another in 1844? Nothing mystical about this Stephen. Plain, simple logic, and a willingness not to mangle scripture, is all that is needed.
Stephen, I think you’re getting a little ahead of things. Before those texts come these:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Please tell me what these texts mean in the context of Matt 24. Such questions as what, when, where, might be a good place to start.
C’mon Serge, we both know that you’ve been beaten to the punch by the suggestion that you come to grips with what may be problematic statements for your perspective.
But, the abomination of desolation in my view refers to the blasphemous usurpation of the divine prerogatives of intercession, judgment and forgiveness; which are represented in history and prophecy by the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, then by the blasphemy of the roles assumed by the papacy.
Now, you may or may not agree with me; but that is my current understanding and belief. So then, what is your understanding and belief of those specific verses in Matthew 24 that I’ve referenced?
Stephen, you can’t be serious. Two fulfilments of v 15? Careful… Des Ford was defrocked for invoking the apotelesmatic principle, in his effort to give some respect to this Adventist illogic. I suppose you also think Dan 8.14 is a ‘contextual island’ which can simply be lifted from the page as if it has no relevance to that which is being said around it?
So here’s a question of logic: if the second fulfilment where the Abom of Des relates to how the papacy has somehow managed to abominate the heavenly temple (a truly bizarre concept if ever there was), when did you see it? and why have you not fled to the mountains as per Jesus’ advice? Ok, just stay with ‘when did you see it standing there?’ Did Ellen see it, perhaps, and tell you? And how is it that it has been abominating the most holy place of the heavenly temple for what, 172 earth years? Truly bizarre.
This is why I have to reject your desire to pick out a few texts from Mt 24 and say that these texts apply specifically to here and now. You have no firm basis for doing so. Until you can make better sense of the whole context of Mt 24, as set by Jesus with his specific reference to Daniel (a book I understand SDAs claim to have a special insight into), then there is no chance of us having any kind of reasoned discussion.
Is there no-one else who would like to give a reasoned view of Jesus’ application of the abom of des? The credibility of Adventism is hanging on it.
That represents a very thinly veiled attempt to avoid the question Serge. No matter what you think of my answer to your question, the fact is that I answered your question. But instead of returning the courtesy of answering my questions to you with regard to Matthew 24—and particularly your understanding and interpretation of verses 21, 22, 27, 30, and 42—you desperately resort to ridiculing my interpretation of the abomination of desolation…and would obviously prefer to leave it at that.
Well, actually, by going off on an abomination of desolation discussion tangent, you are effectively attempting to change the subject altogether. But you’ll have difficulty doing that because I will continue to ask you what it is that Jesus meant in verses 21, 22, 27, 30, and 42 of Matthew 24. Did He say that it would get so bad that no one would survive if this time of distress would not be shortened? What did He say would be visible?
Nothing but the credibility (and future?) of Agafonoffic Mysticism depends on it.
Thank you, Stephen, for reminding us of why our movement was born. (It is a movement rather than a church organization for me.) As John represented Elijah to prepare the way of the Lord’s first advent, I believe this movement (which includes nonSDAs as well), we are to prepare the way for the Lord according to our talents, gifts, and circumstances in life. This can be as a missionary, educator, plumber, physician, pastor, parent, or any occupation with a Christ-centered life and communication with heaven.
Anyone who does not see our planet in a totally different age that never existed before, is totally unaware of life outside themselves. For the first time in history we can communicate around the globe and we have the capacity to destroy ourselves. We are in a post-holocaust world. It’s not going to get better. Having said that, we have the hope of heaven and a God who cares. Our current lives are short and temporary; so perhaps time makes little difference. But we have the privilege of seeing it unfold now. I don’t see it as fearful but find my identity with that knowledge.
“Anyone who does not see our planet in a totally different age that never existed before, is totally unaware of life outside themselves”
That could be said about any generation before us. This world has, and will always change; without change, there is death. The people who first heard the Christian message had changed dramatically since the Bible accounts first occurred. We today have vastly changed since the Adventist founders first proclaimed a soon return of Christ. Such statements are only stating the obvious to those who know history.
Ecclesiastes 1:
8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
HE does not change; nothing is new to HIM. Our inept sinful little struggles will thankfully be remembered no more, by HIS promise.
Matthew 24:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
HIS Word is the only thing that we have, IT does not change or pass away.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
We do not know when, but HE will come.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
We need to be ready.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
As Stephen states above, is it literal or to all generations? Either way, we should definitely not think or tell others HE is delayed. HE will come in HIS time not ours. Do we blame others for their definition of soon?
I’m convinced if Jesus ever comes back Adventists will miss it. The will be too invested in gazing at magic chicken bones with one eye to divine the times and with the other staring at the prophecies for new evidence they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Adventists, alone in the religious world, are beguiled by the idea of the second coming. Seduced. No amount of reason, no 1844 experience of infamy, no review of the total failure of the history of all other end time expectations, no analytical facts studied that Christ may not actually have predicted it, no facts that “signs of the times” are generic as application to virtually every moment in history, no record of divine intervention ever occurring to rescue people from mayhem, seems to bust the fanciful bubble of Adventist’s mental seduction.
There seems to be some kind of a second advent magic spell enjoyment. It’s a daydream fantasy of deliverance from what is now a fairly benign world. Which is exactly why it is so misapplied. Historically, (this include Jesus also who stated his expectation that “all would be fulfilled” right away) increased tribulation was a direct link to interest in God’s intervention.
Honoring and creating myth is one of the proper roles of religion. What a shocker, Adventists who love “truth,” love myth even more.
Might Christ show up in our time? Probably not, but that is perfect nourishment for the blind Adventist myth maintenance society!
OK, write me off as totally wacky evidenced by my ongoing lack of editing skills and my misapplied name on this reply! Should be Bugs/Larry Boshell, not my photo web site Boshell Photographics
But if you happen to venture to my web site, you will see I do have lucid moments of repose in the mythical Fields of Ambrosia where I enjoy and share my view of God’s earth. I see his love plastered everywhere there and find his permission for my wackiness as granted by his acceptance. He and I are best buds!
Bugs,
It’s our hope, man. To be with Jesus Christ; for His Kingdom to come. The allure of secret knowledge about ‘when’ is sin. Coveting knowledge is the first sin; to be like God and really understand.
And that is why Job gets such a dressing down. All He did was ask why. You have to have faith Bugs. Faith that God is Faithful. That His word is true and endures forever. That He answers your question about suffering by dying on the cross.
What more can He say than to you He has said
You who to Jesus for refuge have fled
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
William, your hope isn’t under attack by me. My criticism is about the Adventist attempt to create a historical event out of an imaginary one. If it every occurs, it will no longer be a dream, but in the meantime, that is what it is.
I am still wondering what planet BB is writing from–been in the dark room too long? Even atheists see an end in the future. We have lived under the cloud of nuclear destruction for decades. Only the grace of God has kept this from happening. And technology is so advanced none are safe from its intrusion. I was fascinated by the story of the Russian officer that kept the Cuban crisis from happening by turning back. There have been so many close calls and not by chance. It occurs to me that anyone not seeing a near ending must be delusional.
The Christian answer to this is the Second Coming (and not in secret). If we consider civilization at least 6000 (metaphorical?) years, we are living in the biblical last days–2000 from the time of Christ. As metaphor one could imagine a thousand years for a day, and Christ’s first advent was on Thursday–towards the end of the week–then we must be the latter part of Friday with the Sabbath rest just ahead.
A promise is not a dream Bugs.
William I don’t know of any effective difference. Enlighten me if you will.
When (in the New International Version) Jesus answered the question of “where are you going?” by saying “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later;” he presented an intellectual problem for your theological position Bugs.
Since Christ came to show us what God/Love is really like, we know that somehow— partly because He also said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.”
The same Person that says “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another;” is the same Person that says, “I am going to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You will know the way to the place where I am going.”
(This is all in the same chapter.)
It isn’t hard to find Scriptural words that meet presuppositions. I respect your belief, Stephen. So I won’t offer another explanation for these verses.
Dreams are a matter of imagination. Promises are made and kept.
Dreams are me thinking. Promises are me listening
William, doesn’t an unfulfilled promise morph int a dream? And promises aren’t always kept, often broken. And sometimes promises in the eyes of the receiver were never made by the giver.
Of course you haven’t answered my question, Serge; and who said anything about 1844 or IJ? Do you have me confused with someone else; or do you have this confused with some other discussion—or both?
My, what lengths you will go to avoid a simple declaration (much less an explanation) of your view—YOUR view—of specifically what it is that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24: 21, 22, 27, 30 and 42! You can give it to us within the context of your interpretation of the abomination of desolation; or whatever other context you’d like. My good man, of what are you afraid?
I’ve already told you what I think regarding the abomination of desolation (and also seem to recall telling you what I think regarding the IJ). You don’t agree with me; but I am never afraid to tell you what I think.
So I do expect of you a willingness to reciprocate what you ask of me—especially after I have complied with your request. I expect reciprocity as a matter of courtesy.
So, before we go on, or before I answer another question of yours, please just tell us all what you think that Jesus meant when He said what He said in those statements.