The Inspired Expired-3
[Last of a three part series.]
by Jack Hoehn, February 13, 2015: What to Do with a Deceased Prophetess –
[Part 1 of this series discussed the world Ellen White was born into and ministered in. Part 2 of this series discussed the aging and death of Ellen White, and the steps taken by her church and her descendants after her death. This article will attempt to offer some suggestions of what do we do, now that our prophetess is truly dead and gone, with the literary trove she left behind. Do we bury her books with her body? Or should we attempt a partial or total resurrection of Ellen White?]
Set Free from Inerrancy
What do we do now?
Adventism’s supporters and detractors struggled with the place of Ellen White in the church while she was alive. And certainly since her death in 1915 at the beginning of the previous century, there has been no more divisive topic in Adventism than what to do with her now.
I am not going to do anything more than mention the pivotal 1919 Bible Conference suppression,[1] and then the decades of ascendancy in Adventism of a practicing inerrancy for both the ancient inspired writers of the Bible and for our recent prophetess’s inspiring works. Personally, in my childhood and youth I think I was blessed by being taught that Ellen White spoke for God and that was that. If Sister White said it, then God said it, so who was I to quibble? And there is a concrete and satisfying solidity to this that can appear on a bumper sticker.
1.) GOD SAID IT. ELLEN WROTE IT.
I BELIEVE IT. THAT SETTLES IT.
It did not lead me far astray. It kept me from many dangers and snares. It made me a bit cocky and argumentative. But youth thinks, I still have time. I am not perfect now, but I am young, if I work a little harder, or live a little longer, or try a little harder, I will overcome cheese and sugar and pickles and listening to football games on Sabbath or enjoying Playboy magazine or releasing sexual tension by this means or that. I’ll be an overcomer.
It is harder to do that when you get to the other end of life and you learn that pickles and coffee and earrings are not the real barriers to righteousness. You also begin to see that a simplistic view of life does not answer the actual complexities of life. That simple view of inerrancy may erode all at once when the guardian angels promised do not appear when you really needed them. Or when a dread disease takes away some beloved perfectly practicing vegan health reformer.
Perhaps it comes like the young mother who suddenly understood that by not having sugar and cookies and icing in her kitchen, she was depriving her children of all the happy childhood memories she had had, by a health reform totalitarianism. They’ll never know what a cupcake is, she suddenly realized.
Or in my own case, when time after time after time I began to see that the world absolutely, positively, conclusively was older than 6,000 years by so many different forms of evidence that my simplistic young earth creationism could only be supported by denying truth.
John Walton, a conservative Old Testament scholar who concludes that Genesis 1 is telling about the inauguration of worship by God, not the chronology or physical formation of life, was approached by a lady with her KJV Bible in hand who demanded of him, “Professor Walton, why don’t you just take the Bible and accept it as it reads?”
He says he wanted to hand her his copy of the Hebrew Bible and say, “Here, friend, why don’t you?”
Inspiration Doesn’t Prevent Mistakes and Errors
Ellen White has written many things that are right (see below). But she has also said some things that are quite wrong. You all know some of them. It is not always a sin to be sick. Volcanos and earthquakes are not caused by burning coal fires underground. Human children in heaven may not sprout little wings. Waldensians may not have been seventh-day Sabbath keepers. Amalgamation of man with beast may not have created certain brownish races of men. Masturbation may be a blessing, not a curse, at some times in life. And a vegan diet may only be healthy with great care, not being ideal for most of the world, although largely plant-based diets certainly are healthy, with a little animal food or with supplements. All modern drugs are certainly not poisons although most 19th century ones were.[2]
The Bible itself must also be interpreted to understand the truth. It is impossible to take every word literally without interpretation![3]
Errors and Sins
Scriptural inerrancy is an unsupportable heresy. The same is true of Ellen White inerrancy. Both views are idolatrous – worship of a fallen human prophet, instead of the Creator. Bibliolatry – worshiping the words of Paul, John, James, or Moses – is an error that can be forgiven, as long as we don’t stubbornly refuse to believe the truth when it is shown to us. Accepting as infallible truth every message Ellen White gave as from the throne of God was always an error, but persisting in this inerrancy error, when God shows us greater truth, is also a sin.
But there is another sin even worse than these.
2.) WHITE’S ERRORS PROVE SHE WAS A FALSE PROPHET. BURY HER DEEP AND THROW AWAY THE SHOVEL.
Jesus warned that the sin of ignoring the Spirit when He prophesies whenever or wherever or by whomever He wants to is not pardonable.[4] Can you disregard Jonah’s message to Nineveh just because he was a coward and a grumbler? Will you cut out the Psalms because David was a man of blood, sexually hard to satisfy, and at times quite dishonest? Will you ignore Paul because he used hard-to-understand arguments, some of which don’t make sense? Will you ignore the preaching of Peter because he lapsed into racial discrimination after God told him not to discriminate?
Dare you ignore these?
Will you deny this? “True love is not a strong, fiery, impetuous passion. It is, on the contrary, an element calm and deep. It looks beyond mere externals, and is attracted by qualities alone. It is wise and discriminating, and its devotion is real and abiding.” (Adventist Home, p. 51)
Or this? “A Christian reveals true humility by showing the gentleness of Christ, by being always ready to help others, by speaking kind words and performing unselfish acts, which elevate and ennoble the most sacred message that has come to our world.” (Life Sketches, p. 86)
Will you refuse to be moved by this? “The greatest want of the world is the want of men—men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.” (Education, p. 57)
The first book in her Conflict of the Ages series begins: “God is love. His nature, His law, is love. It has ever been; it ever will be.” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 33)
Her last book in the same series ends: “The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love.” (Great Controversy, p. 678)
And most helpful to me personally: “Every association of life calls for the exercise of self-control, forbearance, and sympathy. We differ so widely in disposition, habits, education, that our ways of looking at things vary. We judge differently. Our understanding of truth, our ideas in regard to the conduct of life, are not in all respects the same… So frail, so ignorant, so liable to misconception is human nature, that each should be careful in the estimate he places upon another.” (The Ministry of Healing, p. 483)
Now I understand that Ellen White said her works were a lesser light to the Bible, and that she was not a prophet but a messenger or servant of the Lord (although I am not sure I understand the real difference). But frankly, now that Ellen White is dead and has been physically buried, I don’t think we should resurrect her, or deify her, or ignore her. I think we should canonize her.
3.) TRUE PROPHETS LIKE ELLEN WHITE SHOULD BE CANONIZED.
“What!” you exclaim. Are you trying to make Ellen White equal to the sacred Scriptures? Yes, but you may not understand what I mean, so let me explain a little more.
Canonizing does not mean taking all 2,500,000 words, all 5,000 articles, all her recorded sermons, all her Testimonies to individuals, all her 100 books or even Steps to Christ, and making them a new Bible. It means doing what the church did to Moses, and to James, and to Esther, and to Nehemiah, and to the Psalms, and to the Gospels or the letter of Paul to the Laodiceans.
The church over time selected those portions deemed inspired and, as directed by God, preserved those that became sacred, not because everything the prophets wrote was of equal validity or was perfect logic and factually immaculate, but because through the imperfections of human messengers we glimpsed pictures of God.[5]
It is clear that all the Bible has been edited. The Hebrew was edited; we have only copies of copies. The Greek was edited; we have only copies of copies. Everything James said (he made some errors in his speeches in Acts) is not accepted as inspired – just those key 5 chapters in his little book. And even those Luther had problems with! But they have been edited and selected by the church.
How dare we edit the messenger of the Lord? How dare we not![6]
Ellen White is situational and persuasive
Ellen White need not be an infallible authority to remain our inspiration. Wheat is a valuable seed, enclosed with a small coating of chaff. You release the value of the wheat by smashing it and then winnowing away the chaff to leave the wheat. You thresh it. You refine it. This is what has been done with all inspired writings.
I have read all the published works of Ellen White, and hundreds if not thousands of her articles. I have learned time and again that her authority is both situational and persuasive. Sister White did insist that we listen to her,[7] but she then tried to persuade us with logic, reason, and quoting scriptures. She does say, Because God spoke to me, listen. But she never says, Because I heard God, you just have to believe it or else, and I never make mistakes.
Much of her practical instruction was given in a 3rd world situation. Ellen White’s details often fit better in a developing world than a developed world. We may need one kind of book very slightly edited for use in the rural 3rd world not yet plumbed and electrified, and a different, more updated and edited book for use in the developed cities of the world.
Replace the Estate with an Institute
The time for the preservation in an embalmed form of all the 19th century writings of Ellen G. White as quasi-infallible is over. The church needs to replace the Ellen White Estate dedicated to protection and conservation of a dead person, with an EGW Institute of Advanced Communication, where her works are edited and improved instead of merely conserved. A place where the new and young of today translate her works not into German or Zulu or Chinese, but into videos and internet blogs. Where the emphasis is not on preserving her words, but on reapplying her ideas and principles to the problems and needs of today.
The timeless insights and inspired ideas Ellen White was given should be edited, collected, freed of obvious errors and misstatements, and republished in today’s language.
Two Suggestions for Readers
#1) It is time to stop trying to believing something just because Ellen White saw it, if you can’t also see it yourself. Ellen is now dead and asleep in Jesus. You are the one with your eyes open, and if God can’t help you to see something, don’t pretend you do just because our deceased prophetess saw it. She is responsible for what she saw; you are responsible for what you see.
#2) On the other hand, don’t ignore anything she said just because you don’t understand it at first glance! Is all fiction bad for you? Are movies places where the angels leave you at the door? Natural 21st century self says, What crazy ideas! Wacko!
But is it? Is it possible much or most fiction is bad for you, even if not all? Is it true that all movies have no effect on you? Would some things you watch not offend angels? Would you and Jesus sit together and watch “24 Hours” or “Game of Thrones” every week? I don’t offer an answer, but think about it.
Consider what she wrote; give it a chance. Then reject the chaff and modify the absolute statements, but keep the kernels of truth found in most of them. Cheese may no longer be completely “unfit for human consumption,” as it was before pasteurization, but it is still pretty high in saturated fat and cholesterol.
Unlock Ellen White from the false burden of infallibility, and welcome her back into your life as a good and wise friend. As we must do with all our friends, forgive her when she makes a mistake or is frankly wrong, but love her when like a good friend she is so often just exactly what we need.
Death Freed Ellen White of Infirmity; We May Free Her from Irrelevancy
By editing out the situational and questionable parts of her writings, by consensus of believers, we can offer our children and our communities a great blessing, inspired direction for their lives from Ellen White. Her edited words can stand beside those of the other inspired spokesmen and women for God through the ages.
I will close this series with my personal testimony that a fallible Ellen White remains the most important spiritual influence in my life, bar none. God has spoken and continues to speak to me through her writings. God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke to our fathers through the prophets, and then sent his only beloved Son, has not left us now without witness, His servant, Ellen White. So I finish with a bit of plagiarism.
“Friends, Adventists, countrymen, lend me your ears,
I come to praise Ellen, not to bury her.
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones.
Must it be so with Ellen?
I speak not to disprove what others say,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You did all love her once, not without cause.
What cause withholds you then to honor her now?
Bear with me. My heart is in the coffin there with Ellen,
And I must pause till it come back to me….
Here was a prophetess, when comes such another?” [8]
(This is the last of a three-part series on The Expired Inspired. If you found this series interesting, please share it on Facebook or other media with interested friends. Concise constructive comments and suggestions on the proper use of the writings of Ellen White are now welcomed from readers. Please read all three parts before you comment. All comments will be read with interest, but may be edited by the author to retain those that are constructive and on the topic of these articles.)
FOOTNOTES:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Bible_Conference_(Adventist)
[2] I have published on Ellen White and Medicines in Adventist Review, April 25, 2002. https://archives.adventistreview.org/2002-1517/story1.html
[3] See Christian Smith, The Bible Made Impossible—Why Biblicism Is Not a Truly Evangelical Reading of Scripture (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Publishing Brazos Press, 2011).
[4] Mark 3:29.
[5] Encyclopedia Britannica summarizes: “The process of canonization was relatively long and remarkably flexible and detached; various books in use were recognized as inspired, but the Church Fathers noted, without embarrassment or criticism, how some held certain books to be canonical and others did not. Emerging Christianity assumed that through the Spirit the selection of canonical books was “certain” enough for the needs of the church. Inspiration, it is to be stressed, was neither a divisive nor a decisive criterion. Only when the canon had become self-evident was it argued that inspiration and canonicity coincided, and this coincidence became the presupposition of Protestant orthodoxy (e.g., the authority of the Bible through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit).”
[6] Ellen G. White: “There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” (Review and Herald, December 20, 1892)
[7] I believe that to overcome the 1800’s culture of gender discrimination and general dismissal of Adventists after 1844 as foolish enthusiasts, the supernatural was necessary to gain the prophetess a hearing. This is not simple enthusiasm; this is something more. “Listen up!” is the message the public visions gave. But being inspired did not overrule the need for persuasion and reason in Ellen White’s ministry, as all her written works attest.
[8] My paraphrase is, of course, from Marc Antony’s speech in Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar.
Jack, a beautiful soul warming eulogy. i am also indebted to Ellen White, for finding Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. i agree with the canonization of Ellen. A retrieval of her Godly reputation greatly earned in the service of Jesus Christ. i agree with the preparation of the Annals of Ellen, in white washed form, removal of the fallible parts of which we are all capable of producing, as was every prophet in the bible. God love her soul. She will be a great addition on the heavenly scene Thank you God, for Ellen G White’s witness of your gracious LOVE.
Jack,
Your three contributions to a better understanding and use of EGW is a remarkable contribution to our church. The one issue may be that what you have written is too reasonable and calls for integrity and an acceptance of what many know to be true, but is counter to accepted and promoted tradition. Be that as it may, you have presented a defensible format that can well serve individuals and the church. Thank you!
Bravo! Your humility and thoughtful expression of what you believe echo my own convictions. Your words have made it possible to share this aspect of Adventist history with my children and grandchildren without in any way being negative or disparaging. In addition, I believe my parents, grandparents, in-laws, (missionaries and preachers included) would nod their heads in affirmation and and smile after finishing your last Shakespearian plagairistic line.
A year ago I rescued Vol. II of Spiritual Gifts from the box old books inherited from my wife’s grandfather, Adolf Johnson, a Swedish minister and occasional church administrator. It was #210 of the 1860 published first edition. The tiny 4X6 inch book cost Adolf fifty cents, and was originally owned by a W. M. Hall of Kingston Minnesota who acquired it in 1875.
I didn’t know what to expect when I opened the book, but its every page revealed a woman of extraordinary courage and love and passion for the truth. I just fell in love with her. The young woman I met in those pages made me proud to claim my Adventist heritage. Canonization required!
A wise analogy of the wheat and the chaff…don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater! It’s seems you have found a way to bridge the gap between all and none!
I hope our leaders will take heed to common sense wisdom…and settle it once and for all. I was blessed by your analysis, and negotiated solution! A great mediation!
Be blessed!
One question…who would be the arbiter of truth…the decider of wheat vs. chaff? I fear that would start yet another battle, for there will be those who will not want to relinquish their battlefield positions…as there are those who still think the Civil War should rage on. Any thoughts?
This series of articles reveals anew the low view of inspiration that official Adventism has for the Bible. Obviously, the SDA view of selective, thought inspiration is bolstered by the writings attributed to Ellen White. Indeed, Seventh-day Adventism has enthroned many liberal views (akin to other churches that are dominated by female founders and leaders). The human writers of Scripture were not machines and ought not be conceived of as being without personality. What is overcome or overridden by inspiration is not human personality, style or literary structure, but human tendencies to distortion, falsehood, and error. Thus, we can fully trust the Bible for sound doctrine. The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us.
Dr. Hoehn, thanks for pointing out that the wisdom of aging often teaches us that “pickles and coffee and earrings are not the real barriers to righteousness.” It took me a while to understand that, partly by reading Morris Venden’s “How to Make Christianity Real” and “95 Theses on Righteousness by Faith” and “How Jesus Treated People” (and a blog at http://goo.gl/KmlXed ). As Ellen said, “Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.” (1888 Materials, p. 811). Salvation is not about anything that I can accomplish; it is just a free gift of grace through faith.
And when we fall in love with Jesus, His righteousness will begin to manifest in us through “showing the gentleness of Christ, by being always ready to help others, by speaking kind words and performing unselfish acts.” (LS 86) Also with righteousness, will come an understanding that “our ways of looking at things vary. We judge differently. Our understanding of truth, our ideas in regard to the conduct of life, are not in all respects the same.” (MH 483) Thanks for your article and for mentioning those thought-provoking quotes.
Great stuff.
You say “By editing out the situational and questionable parts of her writings…” While this may seem like a good idea at first, it plays right into the hands of the skeptics (as witnessed here on AT by some articles and reactions to them) that Ellen White was a fraud.
May I endorse what John McCaull said above? I think it far more helpful to understand the principles rather than trying to reflect our current era through ‘her’ writings. And than, as the world continues to change, will we continue with our emendations and compilations to further change and distance her thought from the original intent? What a mess!
I am concerned with the lack of study among rank and File Adventists, affecting both our understanding of the Bible and the other inspired literature, not just Mrs. White’s writings. She herself encouraged us to read the Bible by understanding the times in which it was written. I would like to see an up-to-date Bible commentary that we can read an discuss and disagree with. I have been so blessed by George Knight’s exegetical books about the Bible and by the Bible Amplifier series although it is disappointingly incomplete. What such study does is to allow Ellen White’s stature as a prophet to shine. While accepting in some part errors extant in the 19th century, she wrote so beautifully and lovingly of Jesus. A helpful thing would be a commentary on her principal works explaining current thinking and understanding. That could lead to much fruitful discussion. But do leave her words as is.
Ellen White did not write in a vacuum. No one could live for many decades and comment on many situations without the necessity of any reader to consider the circumstances of the exhortation. Those who pervert and dis-claim EGW will also do the same with scripture. For the bible is also written over many years, and each writer expresses a view in the context of situations different than other writers. Paul comments on many situations. Does Paul contradict himself? NO. What may be relevant in one circumstance would not be relevant in another.
99% of the bickering over EGW is by those who are intent on destroying her credibility with the final purpose to destroy basic SDA truth claiming it is not biblical. Every basic historic doctrine formulated by EGW is both Protestant and biblical. If you read the Great Controversy with some discernment, you will see that her first goal is to defend the historic Protestant faith in the first half of the book. The second half of the book is to show that if you accept what has been presented in the first half, you must also accept the conclusion articulated in the second. It is the only viable, logical, and biblical conclusion possible to the principles of historic Protestantism. If you reject the conclusion, you must also reject Protestantism and will necessarily embrace the spirituality of the Roman Catholic church. This is non-negotiable in her thinking and any other well informed bible scholar who embraces the Protestant principles of faith. The unfolding of future events will affirm her ministry as valid and beyond challenge.
You ignored the one basic SDA truth that stimulated every other finding and affirmation. Namely, Jesus entered the MHP in 1844 and began to judge the church.
As to other things she stated at different times, she often qualifed and requalified certain things she said. As as example on one occasion she affirmed that God had forbidden the touching of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Later she qualifed this statement by stating that God had not forbidden them to touch the tree, but Eve had made this statement contrary to God’s command. In the over all context of her ministry, I would say “so what?” The early disciiples thought Jesus was coming back very soon. Their misunderstanding does not negate the basic truths they affirmed.
So, now we must decide what is non-negotiable in EGW’s affirmations and what is subject to qualification and redefinition. That Jesus entered the MHP in 1844 is not subject to some new concept concerning the major point of this event. It is an historical event that can not be changed anymore than we can deny the historical event of the Christ event. Both are literal and real historical events. Just like creation, the flood, the Exodus, etc.
But people who attack her ministry to discredit the validity of it, always attack the 1844 historical event and either change what she said about it, or, deny the dynamic of the IJ on some level. Especially the part where she affirms that our works are the determining factor of salvation. So, you may nit pick various things like the closed door, which she herself corrected almost immeadiately and other side issues as well. But these side issues are used to challenge and discredit the major issue of 1844 and the IJ. People may applaud your open minded investigation of her ministry. And I don’t know nor will I judge your motive for investigating all the issues. All I can say is this, at least most who take the road you do, end up with skepticism and doubt about her ministry and generally end up denying basic fundamental bible Adventism. And as I have stated before, the same type of spirituality ends up also denying the bible.
I was part of the Brinsmead awakening, and I saw him eventually deny EGW, and in a short time deny the bible. Dr. Ford is trailing along behind and taking longer than Brinsmead, but going the same route. You may doubt this is the final conclusion, but I don’t. I see it happening on a wholesale level, and don’t you know, they also give up the Sabbath. It is the only logical conclusion when you begin to doubt the 1844 historical event. That’s my observation, and I think it is valid.
As I said, Jack, time will show that those who attack EGW and abandon her basic message also attack and abandon the bible. By this time, any objective observer can not avoid this reality that has happened and is happening over and over. Anyone can have objective questions about EGW and even the bible. But you can not attack the basic fundamental teaching of either and not eventually abandon the ministry of EGW and also the bible.
It is good to know all the things about EGW we can. As time goes on we may indeed learn more about [whether] some statements were revelations from God or just words of Ellen.
You mention her writings should be edited to put them in tune with the times we are living. Perhaps if the world lasts another hundred years-What then? Future generations may desire to update them again.
Personally I like the very original and can make the adjustments in my own mind as to the time we live as we must do with the Bible.
Better yet, why read any of her “Testimonies” which were only directed to specific individuals; but they have been recommended to the church in general?
Of the thousands of Christian books published each year, have any of her writings ever been published by other publishers; recommended by other Christian churches or websites?
She wrote specifically for the Sda church at a specific time. To use her writings as universal and timeless is a gross error and has enormous problems as many have been so sincerely attuned to her writings that they have almost gone over the “deep end” in attempting to meticulously follow her every word.
I have read them which is the reason for my comments. I was immersed in her from the first grade to the 12th, when I began attending public colleges and universities that were not immersed in religions. Infusing religion into secular subjects is brainwashing young students and not teaching them how to critically think but only to memorize Bible texts and EGW quotations.
Jack,
Your last paragraph to Bill mentioning ISIS really got me thinking.Those people are persequting christians and or anyone who does not go along with them. Could Ellen have been wrong as thinking it was the catholic faith who would do this in the last days?
Now before you race over and brand me a heretic and kick me through the goal post for a field goal lets consider something. When Jesus came He didn’t come the way expected so He was rejected by his church. Most things predicted in prophecy that have already come to pass have been the same way.All I can say is (I’m really watching)
Could it be that we are closer to the end than we realize???
Steve Tanner, don’t let anyone kick you thru the GPS. i like your willing to listen attitude.
Yes, i agree that Earth time as we know it is “extremely” short. No one is expecting it’s wind up. “As a thief in the night”?? Should our Savior delay His coming, mankind will convulse the globe in a suicidal Hydrogen Bomb radiation belt circling the Earth. Yes, there are madmen as there always have been, who gain the power to use the latest weaponry.
As to Ellen White’s Earthly legacy, (her eternal soul is safe) as are all souls who love our Lord Jesus Christ, regardless if we have interpretations that vary on most scriptural wisdom.
Jesus Christ knows the heart of man. The trend generally in all manuscripts, historically, undergo revision.
Jack, your ideas sound good but they open Pandora’s Box. Ellen White claims divine inspiration. If we say the 6000 yr. statement, the amalgamation statement, or the cause of volcanism statement is wrong then we are saying they are not inspired, else we must explain why the Holy Spirit would inspire a falsehood. Another problem is that if they were not inspired you create the dilemma of deciding what is inspired and what is not. The fact that you can’t trust the inspiration of the 6000 yr. earth, the amalgamation, and volcanism statements means that the inspiration of every other Ellen White statement is questionable. Just because a statement sounds good or makes sense doesn’t mean it is inspired. So how do you decide what is inspired and what is not? If you edit her works who decides what to change, committee or an individual? If the committee is made of fundamentalist nothing will change and the liberals will cry foul. If the committee is composed of liberals then the fundamentalists are offended. If you have mix nothing will happen because they will spend the rest of their lives debating Ellen White. Furthermore, any who attempts to edit or in any way change an Ellen White statement must also be inspired to a level equal to or greater than Ellen Whites.
It is similar to the problems the Mormons have in “proving” that Christ came first to what is now the U.S.and converted all the natives.
Mormons have their own view of history; Adventists have not only their Biblically interpreted history but the future as well. Predicting the future is always a losing gamble, as we are seeing today. The current Pope being widely accepted by millions of Christians while the ISIS and Al Queda are bent on destroying Christianity.
The thing I admire about this site is that what is asserted is challenged. I like the challenging of what I say, and am particularly fond of challenging.
How in the world can anyone acquainted or even remotely familiar with Adventist eschatology view the ascension, obvious charisma, and popularity of “the current pope being widely accepted by millions of Christians” without raised eyebrows?
I mean, I understand that there is a definite and requisite confirmation bias of the prophesied cottage industry of scoffers against perceiving fulfillments of prophecy in real time; but some things appear to be more difficult to explain away than are others.
It can be said without fear of successful contradiction that (as my late, great ‘Old Man’ would occasionally say) the primary ‘problem’ with Adventism’s eschatology—besides the fact that it will inevitably tend to become increasingly difficult to dismiss—is that it is provocative; and that’s because the institutional players and roles have largely been identified. As the players play their parts, attempts to discredit Ellen White’s writings and credibility will, of course, need to be redoubled; similarly to how the prophesied scoffing works.
Isn’t this what Biblical/Adventist nihilism is about? If you can’t trust the Bible or EGW about some things that are written, then you can’t trust anything that is written. This of course is the opening to Pandora’s Box to which fatherdoc refers. As Bill Sorensen has accurately observed, “All I can say is this, at least most who take the road [Jack takes], end up with skepticism and doubt about her ministry and generally end up denying basic fundamental bible Adventism. And as I have stated before, the same type of spirituality ends up also denying the bible.”
This may well boil down to whether inspired information from God (to human writers and speakers) is effectively and practically infallible; and whether those who believe it to be infallible are more/less susceptible to deception than are those who think it fallible.
I’d prefer to be placed in the former category; with an obvious caveat being the determination of that which is/isn’t inspired.
“The Holy Spirit is given to all born again believers, and those who wish to know the truth are promised they will be led into truth. I don’t find that impossible, unless we persist in believing our cherished falsehoods. Jack”
And this is exactly right. Unbelievers always look for reasons to doubt and spread skepticism and unbelief. And I suggest that the over all motive is simply this, “God can’t hold us accountable for what we either don’t know, or understand.” And this applies especially to the bible. EGW is a side issue. The final issue is the bible. Those who attack EGW end up attacking the bible. And no doubt you will get massive doses of affirmation from others who do the same thing.
In high school some of the most “teachable moments” occurred on days when I was able to demonstrate in class that the English, or math, or history teacher had presented an inaccuracy in fact or in reasoning in a lecture or handout.
That the teacher had erred or had made a bad assumption was not seen as evidence that he or she should be disgracefully fired and barred from campus as pathologically incompetent, but that he or she had created an environment in class that allowed for discussions in which it was possible for students to actually prevail—we didn’t bow blindly to “Master” as being some kind of supernaturally perfect authority standing at the front of the class.
Ellen White urged us to study the Scriptures, and the more I follow her counsel, the more likely (let’s suppose) I am to find areas of strong agreement between her and the Bible as well as incidences where I might believe she fell short in her commentary. I suspect in re-reading her own work, she found spots where she blushed and asked herself, “And my editors allowed this to be published?!”
Point here is that good students in studying good material under good teachers will often find things that appear to impugn the competence and calling of even the best expositors and teachers. What’s new? We’re human and falling short is a way of life among human beings, even among the very best and most intelligently diligent. A teacher who is “always right” intimidates and discourages students; a teacher who challenges students to read and learn for themselves (and even to find that the teacher herself sometimes makes mistakes)is often the more effective educator in the schoolhouse of life….
Jack, I am a little confused by your response and what you implied. “The Holy Spirit is given to all born again believers, and those who wish to know the truth are promised they will be led into truth. I don’t find that impossible, unless we persist in believing our cherished falsehoods.”
You are the one that suggested the formation on an “EGW Institute of Advanced Communication, where her works are edited and improved instead of merely conserved. A place where the new and young of today translate her works not into German or Zulu or Chinese, but into videos and internet blogs. Where the emphasis is not on preserving her words, but on reapplying her ideas and principles to the problems and needs of today.
“The timeless insights and inspired ideas Ellen White was given should be edited, collected, freed of obvious errors and misstatements, and republished in today’s language.”
I have [bolded] the section that I am specifically challenging. The point that I was trying to make is neither I, a committee, an SDA leader or scholar has the right or authority to edit or alter in anyway any Ellen White statement. Do I have the right or authority to rewrite the Genesis story of creation? Should we rewrite the Bible and take out the implied geocentric and flat earth statements. There are hundreds of difference and contradictions between the four gospels. Should we rewrite them so they all agree? Should we rewrite the story of the death of Judas in Act. 1 to agree with the story in Matt. 27? That is what you are suggesting with respect Ellen White.
The fact is that we must be a responsible readers of both Scripture and Ellen White. We must accept the fact that the truth of our theological views are always works in progress. We must continually revisit our way of thinking in the light of new evidence and be willing to change as needed.
Continued revelation is clear evidence of God’s presence and working among His people. If we accept that God spoke through Ellen White more than a century ago, why do we greet with such suspicion any suggestion that He might send another prophet? To accept one and suspect the other is obvious disbelief of scripture. Yes, we should test the new prophets. No, we should not categorically reject them.
The Bible’s editing ended when the canon was closed. No one should even consider “editing” it today; that occurred prior to canonization.
Ellen White is copyright material, and is owned (?) by the White Estate. Nevertheless, to continue to edit, rewrite, combine and eliminate some of her writings is an alarming idea. If she is now out-dated there should be no effort to update to modern times as this would be an endless project. If the church believes she is a prophet inspired by God why would they dare to change or edit her writings? Should someone rewrite the Gospels? Genesis? to make them agree with modernity? This trivializes what the church calls “inspired writing” as something that needs rewriting.
I’m not suggesting anything needs rewritten. Rather, we need to keep our minds open to understand that God continually reveals Himself and that there is always more that He wants us to know.
It is curious that most Christians today believe the gift of prophecy is a “dead” gift that God no longer uses because we have the New Testament. This view is used to refute Ellen White as a prophet. Yet many Adventists are doing the same thing when they cite Ellen White’s writings as the basis for believing God would neither send new prophets or need to reveal anything to His followers today.
Ellen White’s call for us all to be thinkers and not mere reflectors of other’s thoughts without question includes the thoughts of bible writers and, perhaps especially, her own thoughts. And what she believed we read in the bible are the written accounts of the thoughts of the writers, rather than the explicit thoughts of God.
Her quite support of independent thinking is confirmed by her deliberate non-response to G. C. President G. I Butler’s desperate 18-page (I believe) letter in the run up to the 1888 General Conference meeting. His letter was a carefully reasoned plea for her to squash Jones and Wagoner publically by declaring the validity of the majority in the church who saw the law of God as the key enabler of salvation.
With this vignette as background, I imagine that Ellen White would see the canonization of her writing as an exercise in G. I Butler thinking.
An alternative for us is to learn from her testimony that Satan is focused on doing away with the Testimonies. Just what did she mean by this? What does she mean by ‘the Testimonies’? The Testimonies are such voluminous mish mash of her responses to the world around her. Surely in light of promoting individual thought, rather than seeking to follow someone else’s thought, doing away with the Testimonies in her mind is not about doing away with her writing.
Now if the Testimonies are the content-independent confirmation of God’s eternal personal engagement with Seventh-day Adventists, as her community of faith surely sensed for seven decades of Ellen White’s life, then what she is saying Satan most wants to achieve is to end any sense that God is present with us today, in the church, no matter who the president of the General Conference may be, no matter what the controversy over present truth may be.
My sense is that canonizing Ellen White’s writing is an exercise that risks making more permanent the misunderstanding of that ‘the Testimonies’ actually is. The Testimonies are not the writing but the writing is the testimony, singular, that God is eternally present wherever two or three are gathered … For Ellen White the Testimonies are the singular confirmation of the eternal presence of God with us in ways that has always confirmed that our most fundamental beliefs have always been a mistakenly shallow understanding of who God is and why God loves us and that if we are to perpetuate anything from our history it is that our mistakenly shallow understanding of God does not in any way limit God’s presence, and thus His salvation.
Let’s devote half the energy required to canonize Ellen White’s writing to proclaiming Gods presence in our lives, in our church, in our day because of our believe that Ellen White testifying to God’s presence with His creation is real and enduring. This could be the start of true revival and reformation. Just thinking …
Well said!
Jack, from a scientific point of view, neither the Bible nor Ellen White describes physical reality accurately. The Bible speaks in an ancient idiom which is what we would expect ancient people to do. In the same way Ellen White spoke with the voice of the 19th century. Never-the-less, both are the word of God, but the Bible has an ancient view of the natural world, while Ellen White has a 19th century view, neither are modern. The Bible speaks of a flat geocentric earth with the sun moon and stars moving around it. This view has been overturned by modern science and Ellen White to knowledge doesn’t address it. If one were to rewrite the Bible to make it agree with modern science he would need to rewrite the fourth day of creation, the sun standing still, and Christ’s temptation in the wilderness plus a lot more. But that can never occur because the Bible is out there millions of copies of it. In the same way Ellen White’s books are out there and no amount of rewriting is going to change that fact. Rest assured that if a rewrite were to occur there would be those who would compare the old with the new. I can hear the hyena’s now, hence, the opening of Pandora’s Box.
In a previous blog I argued against an infallible Bible and Ellen White. I asserted that the doctrine of infallibility was a form of idolatry. The infallibility heresy is a church created problem which can only be reversed by the church. Looking at President Wilson’s stand on creation and the age of the earth that change is not likely to happen soon. To take his stand one must reject all the scientific evidence for an old earth and accept the infallible ” truth” of Usher’s 6000 year chronology and Ellen White’s 20 plus 6000 year old earth statements. A 6000 year old earth has been the stance of the SDA church from its beginning I don’t see the leadership backing down from that position.
Jack, much of your thought is liberated and “flexible”. I hope your reference to “God’s Adventist people” does imply there is not also a “God’s Baptist people” or just a plain “God’s people”. I think God does not force anyone to be His and consequently the leadership of human organizations can just as easily diminish our experience of “God’s people”. I am hoping that is the context which you speak of the leadership of “God’s Adventist people”.
To William Noel, Do you think God will send a new prophet even though we for the most part rejected the last?
Prophets, of HOLY WRIT, were fallible, in that the inspired was comingled with
personal concepts not inspired, as well as potential revisionism by editors. Ellen White’s writings had fallible content along with inspiration. Those who deny the influence of God the Holy Spirit on individuals, today and in the past, are those who deny the supernatural methods of God in informing His people to walk in His Righteousness.
Being a believer that we are in the “last days” of Earth’s current phase, we are told many would prophesy, old, young, men, women, and maidens. We aren’t told how effective they will be. With the overload of information available to mankind today, of current corruption in the world, of lies, liars, prevaricators, wickedness in high places, and on the next street over.
It will be impossible for a prophet to be accepted, because of the skepticism of most informed people, few trust anyone, as well as the hedonism portrayed in every medium blaring out, “do it”, enjoy life to the fullest. Don’t let anyone tell you what to think. Follow the beautiful people, who wine, dine, and have new lovers every few months. Flying off to Monaco, and other beautiful destinations. Hollywood is the arbiter of what’s HOT. Most every movie and video have fairly explicit sex scenes, advertised on every TV channel on every program, even including the news.
The young people are drawn to these hedonic pursuits in the normal rebellion of their early years. This is not limited to the USA, it is global. The youth today all have the latest technology to access the drivel, porn, etc, and are constantly involved with texting with their peers 24/7. i believe that the youth generally are not “reading” anything of the classics, history, religious material, but are in tune with what’s “HOT”.
I recently asked a recent smart 18 year old Hi-School graduate, several questions of 20th century happenings, and he was unable to answer any of them. Have you noticed, how many out for the day are either talking, and are playing games on their computer phones?? Oblivious to what’s happening around them. Last week while eating in a sandwich shoppe, the man and woman, approx. in their 40’s, sitting next to us, were each playing games on their phones, not speaking a word to each other. Folks, this appears to be the norm for most.
Is it any wonder that a prophet of God can’t break through the ether these people survive in????
Jack, I am glad to read something about EGW from a “flexible” human being. I appreciate what appears to be a well motivated attempt to avoid “throwing the baby out in the bath water”. I agree with you that the process of “canonization” has not been applied to EGW. But, as well intentioned as you might be I am not sure you are considering all there is to “the great controversy” (pun intended) regarding EGW.
Is it possible that the words of EGW from their magnitude, meaning, and message created a barrier against the kind revision you are suggesting? Her writings exceed many times those of the Biblical cannon (either Protestant or Roman Catholic). Her writings seem to consistently present fairly precise interpretations of scripture (even if sometimes self-contradicting). There have been many commentaries on scripture and application of spiritual truth. We do not generally find it necessary to speak of the need for their “canonization”.
If canonization is appropriate for EGW writings then what is different about her inspiration from other modern authors. If her inspiration is somehow special, I think she also deserves another level of scrutiny. I have no trouble excepting she was fallible, but would be very concerned if she exhibited character flaws that can be expected to have a negative impact on her messages.
So, was she guilty of self-promotion at a level that resulted in dishonesty? How do we explain the extensive borrowing from other authors and in some cases under the “I saw” introduction that certainly EGW knew would be interpreted as direct inspiration. Thre is a host of similar questions that might be asked.
How do we explain very “grace” oriented gems sprinkled amongst narratives that feed a great sense of obligation that erases the practical benefit of the grace oriented statements. Even if one does not agree with this appraisal of her writings, you still need to explain why those who take her most seriously and literally almost always land on the intolerant end of the religious spectrum using her as ammunition. Yes, the “canonized” scripture can be used in the same fashion because human beings are errant, but Adventism has throughout most of its history reinforced legalistic ideas and interpretations of scripture.
There have been pockets of Adventist thinkers who have discovered and promoted the Gospel of Grace, but these movements have and continue to experience enormous resistance from the stalwart EGW supporters. The challenge of spreading the Gospel of Grace is as great or greater in Adventism as in Christianity as a whole. So, what in fact is the fruit of EGW prophetic ministry.
I have in past years given the EGW issues a great deal of thought. Like you my instinct was to try and keep the good and dispose of the bad. But, I do not see a path that can accomplish that. Your proposal of canonization does not seem plausible nor appropriate to me.
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Canonization occurred over some consequential amount of time. I hope there is not that much time left? Is canonization even a realistic concept for an author (prophet?) who is not taken seriously by any significant number of Christians outside of Adventism. I agree with you that not even the “canonized” scripture is inerrant in the way often claimed. But, certainly there are certain quantities or types of error that become insurmountable. I am not sure you have given this issue the considertion it deserves.
As some of the Adventist pioneers feared, I think organized religion is often an impediment to the spread of the Gospel. Organizations develop the self preservation and entrenched attitudes of the their human leadership. It is hard to seperate the EGW issues from the issues of human organization and EGW seems inextricably bound to the Adventism denomination and its organization.
I am glad that embedded in EGW’s writings are evidence she understood the gospel and fully expect her to be found among the redeemed. No doubt she will be bitterly disappointed to realize how frequently her writings were used to obscure the Gospel. Her solace: God is in control and works all thing to the good for those that love Him. If it is His intention that EGW’s writings undergo some form of cannonization, it will be so.
i don’t believe it will be “old Home week” in the Earth made new, no old news of Earth circulated
amongst the redeemed. We will be about our Master’s business. i believe Ellen White’s writings
were a work of grace, in respect of love for her Lord, and fellow man. i can almost hear her say, oh’ Lord, I can’t believe I wrote that!! Oh’ my, O’ my.
Proof of prophet, is the fulfillment of their prophecy.
Ellen G. White (1827-1915)
Prophecy of New York City.
“On one occasion, when in New York City, I was in the night season called upon to behold buildings rising story after story toward heaven. These buildings were warranted to be fireproof, and they were erected to glorify their owners and builders. Higher and still higher these buildings rose, and in them the most costly material was used. Those to whom these buildings belonged were not asking themselves: “How can we best glorify God?” The Lord was not in their thoughts.
I thought: “Oh, that those who are thus investing their means could see their course as God sees it! They are piling up magnificent buildings, but how foolish in the sight of the Ruler of the universe is their planning and devising. They are not studying with all the powers of heart and mind how they may glorify God. They have lost sight of this, the first duty of man.”
As these lofty buildings went up, the owners rejoiced with ambitious pride that they had money to use in gratifying self and provoking the envy of their neighbors. Much of the money that they thus invested had been obtained through exaction, through grinding down the poor. They forgot that in heaven an account of every business transaction is kept; every unjust deal, every fraudulent act, is there recorded. The time is coming when in their fraud and insolence men will reach a point that the Lord will not permit them to pass, and they will learn that there is a limit to the forbearance of Jehovah.
The scene that next passed before me was an alarm of fire. Men looked at the lofty and supposedly fire proof buildings and said: “They are perfectly safe.” But these buildings were consumed as if made of pitch. The fire engines could do nothing to stay the destruction. The firemen were unable to operate the engines.
I am instructed that when the Lord’s time comes, should no change have taken place in the hearts of proud, ambitious human beings, men will find that the hand that had been strong to save will be strong to destroy. No earthly power can stay the hand of God. No material can be used in the erection of buildings that will preserve them from destruction when God’s appointed time comes to send retribution on men for their disregard of His law and for their selfish ambition.
My son and I agree, we did see buildings “melt like pitch” on 9-11-2001 in New YOrk City. The scene that next passed before me was an alarm of fire. Men looked at the lofty and supposedly fire proof buildings and said: “They are perfectly safe.” But these buildings were consumed as if made of pitch. The fire engines could do nothing to stay the destruction. The firemen were unable to operate the engines.
“What happens after 9-11-2001?” God reveals His Character in compassion to ISIS.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this…
True Prophets point us back to the Bible: Revelation 18 and 8:8,9
August 3, 1903, Mrs. White further wrote regarding this sensational report:
How comes the word that I have declared that New York is to be swept away by a tidal wave? This I have never said! I have said as I looked at the great buildings going up there story after story. ‘What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! Then the words of Revelation 18:1-3 shall be fulfilled.’ The whole of the eighteenth chapter of Revelation is a warning of what is coming on the earth. But I have no light in particular in regard to what is coming on New York, only I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and over turning of God’s power. From the light given me, I know that destruction is in the world. One word from the Lord, one touch of His mighty, power, and these massive structures will fall.” Life Sketches of Ellen White, p. 41
Mervyn Maxwell (1986-1970)likely never knew, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote the Second Trumpet is comparable to a third world country entering Washington D.C. and setting fire to the Pentagon and White House. p. 239 GOD CARES II.
Seems to me we have a Prophet and Prophetess in agreement, the Bible points to the event in New York City, and Washington D.C. as the two areas targeted by terrorists.
What does Jesus say, to His beloved Disciple John on the Island of Patmos, when we deny Our Jesus is the source of Revelation, given to His Disciples?
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
These words should be in red.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
GOOD IDEA! Has Michael stood up, to protect and deliver us?
“In India, China, Russia, and the cities of America, thousands of men and women are dying of starvation. The moneyed men, because they have the power, control the market. They purchase at low rates all they can obtain, and then sell at greatly increased prices. This means starvation to the poorer classes, and will result in a civil war.There will be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book. . . . Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.”–MS 114, 1899. MR No. 325 1899.
How could Ellen White know in 1899, that Russia, China, India and USA, people are starving, while moneyed men are buying low and selling high?
I tend to think, we have more than ONE Prophet for this generation. . .Does anyone know if Russian and China are maneuvering the stockmarket? ???
Is Israel surrounded by God’s enemies in Daniel 11? I would say “YES” I listened to father WWII veteran, look forward to the day, when Daniel 11 would be fulfilled, and Daniel 12 would be opened. Daddy and Doctor Dahl, were discussing after Saturday dinner at their house, with HOPE that Daniel 12 would be OPENED. Dr. Dahl made this impression on me, when he looked at us, the kids, listening in on their conversation and said, “You really like this!” As I recall, my brother, sister and I were all ears, to hear them discuss, the possibility of Russia being involved, perhaps the King of the North?
Are rejoicing that Michael has stood up, to come and save us? Do no know the Name of Jesus Christ, before he came as Jesus Christ?
Shawn Boonstra does! He wrote the book Jesus before Jesus! LISTEN TO THE VOP…they might be getting something from the Spirit of Prophecy???
The Text Mervyn Maxwell translated was Revelation 8:8,9
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Filled with Bible Symbols, and Nautical Theme, Maxwell used “waters” as a Sea of People, multilingual, multinational, languages and beliefs from Revelation Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
How did Mervyn Maxwell not come up with BLOCKBUSTER MOVIE, with a TIDAL WAVE being thrown at New York City and 1/3 of the earth being destroyed?
Take a better look, “Something like a “mountain” on fire, is thrown into a sea of humanity,” people, not fish, or sea creatures die, a reminder that 1/3 of the angels were deceived in Heaven, when Lucifer wanted to prove, he could rule the earth. This is why were are here. This is The Mystery of Godliness! LUcifer wanted to have his throne, higher on the Sacred Mountain, that God’s Throne. Blood, the LIFE OF THE SOUL, with Jesus’s blood offering us the freedom to choose between Eternl Life or ETernal Death….because He knew, the closer we got to Him, and understanding HE IS THE FOUNDATION, THE ROCK, that we build on, to learn from, to trust in, because we have come to Love Him, because He first loved us, before He created us, to be in this “Garden of Eden,” gone bad, by sin against God. . .by doubting his ablity to save to the utmost….we have become like the Children of Israel, standing on the Jordan, with 10 spies saying the GRAPES ARE HUGE, the milk and honey is overflowing, but we need “guns” and “weapons.”
Now is the Time to rejoice! Revelation 18
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
or worse yet!
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Will we murder Jesus whose testimony was given to His Disciple John the Revelator?…to reveal the love, compassion, vision and end of this world, by trying to silence the Voice of Our Saviour and His Disciple, like the JEWS DID?
Will we crucify The Prophet, God sent us, namely JESUS CHRIST?
Will we stone Ellen White, and deny we are the Remnant Church WITH THE GIFT OF PROPHECY?
I pray we began to WAKE UP, the sleeping VIRGINS….The Great Awakening started right here in USA. We may be the LAST when USA, was the FIRST, and it was largely because we had a Prophetess, who I believe, gave great wisdom in so many other areas than prophecy. . .to help build publishing houses all over the world, so the Bible could be understood around the world, then Jesus would come! HE IS COMING!
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the…
SDA’s have believed, when MIchael leaves the Most Holy, throws down the Holy Spirit on all flesh, He is coming to remove the FALSE PROPHET, and place all the sins we have confessed, to Jesus . . .on the HEAD OF THE REAL SCAPEGOAT…LUCIFER!
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Jesus is the one walking among the 7 Churches. He is the angel, Michael the Arch Angel, the Prince of peace, the Wonderful, The Counseler, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, coming to open the prophecies, that brought about the GREAT DISAPPOITMENT, when we saw Jesus, our Priest, enter the Most Holy, to end the “judgement” before He comes. Jesus brings the rewards with Him! Praise the Lord
The first Trumpet, is judgement against the ancient ones, in Ezekiel 9:6
The first Trumpet, is judgment against God’s House, in 1 Peter 4:17 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
What prophecies are left?
“When God’s temple in heaven is opened, what a triumphant time that will be for all who have been faithful and true! In the temple will be seen the ark of the testament in which were placed the two tables of stone, on which are written God’s law. These tables of stone will be brougth forth from their hiding place, and on them will be seen the Ten Commnadments engraved by the finger of God. These tables of stone now lying in the ark of the testment will be a convicing testimony to the truth and binding claims of God’s law.” (Letter 47, 1902)
The Second Angel is 9-11-2001 in Revelation 8:8,9
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. (Some will become bitter…not good)
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the…
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Anyone know why God sent the Blood Moons, on Passover and the Day of Atonement last year?
Anyone know why God has shown us the Blood Moons, will come on Passover, April 4-11, 2015 and The Day of Atonement on earth, on October 4, 2014? Would you say, God is repeating the 4th Trumpet of Revelation 8?
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Do you like the IDEA, GOD has commanded the angels from the bottomless pit…SHOULD NOT HURT THE BABY CHRISTIANS, or TREES, or anything that is GREEN, but only THOSE MEN, which do not have the SEAL of God in their foreheads….Or is that THE HOLY SPIRIT, like a candle on fire, holding Jesus Christ up, as the LIVING GOD, who is NOT DEAD??
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Loose the Four Angels bound at the Euphrates….In 1500’s a Jesuit priest, saw the demons would be released, and Maxwell said, “Like bats out of Carlsbad Caverns” this great “religion” of unbelief in Jesus Christ, would come from the area of the Euphrates. . .again! Mohammed was out to destroy IDOLS, and collect the gold, of Christians gone over to idol worship in the 700’s A.D.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of…
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
THESE ARE ANGELS, GODS ANGELS, on White Horses….with Michael leading them, to destroy those who refused to repent… of their thefts, murders, etc. Because they would NOT REPENT!
ENTER MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL!
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: (We’ve seen Him in Daniel)
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (We have just heard the Mystery of why God created earth, to give Satan a chance to prove, the created, is not greater than The Creator!)
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
THESE PROPHECIES MUST BE PROPHESY AGAIN!
NOW YOU SEE MICHAEL STANDING UP…
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 7 LAST PLAGUES
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. POUR OUT THE VIALS!
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many…
THE WHORE IS JUDGED:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Moral decay, the basis of Satan mixing wheat and juice with the intoxicating brew, to destroy our brains and ability to communicate with God. . .
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
THIS ANGEL IS MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL…who will come sitting on the right hand of the Father, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL….JESUS CHRIST!
SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED IN HEAVEN – to DIVIDE THE BELIEVERS FROM THE UNBELIEVERS in JESUS CHRIST!
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
or
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
The Virgins, all slept, the Bridegroom came, the Bride shall be heard of no more at all!
Can we WAKE UP and RELIGHT THE OIL IN OUR LAMPS? This is what I pray for! Give me oil in my lamp, keep my burning til the break of day!
April 4-11, 2015, The Blood Moon will be on Passover in Jerusalem
October 4, 2015, the Blood Moon will be on the Day of Atonement in Jerusalem
Between these two dates, there will be a solar eclipse. And the FOURTH TRUMPET AND SOUNDED and is being repeated again!
Does anyone care if JESUS IS COMING? I do! I AM REJOICING TOO! God Bless YOU!
I think someone might have found this, without the help of Ellen White, Jonathan Cahn, Mervyn Maxwell, Walter Anderson, and Ron Wyatt, but they all found 9-11-2001, in the Bible…and it only makes sense!
“But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.” Isa 63:10
You know I may be fearful of man, but I am more fearful of GOD KEEPING HIS PROMISE! To destroy the devil in lake of fire! ALLRIGHT! TO SAVE TO THE UTMOST! WE HAVE…
I don’t want Jesus to be My enemy! I kind of like the thought of Him hiding me under His wings, like a Mother hen!
God Bless All, who come in the name of the Lord!
First HE SAVES US….then we grow…to love Him more…and obey because He first loved us!
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
The gospel is He came, He lived, He died, He went back to Heaven, HE IS ON HIS WAY BACK TO EARTH!
Connie has saved us from attending church and hearing sermons today. She has quote whole chapters and savd us the trouble until we learn to read.
We don’t have to bury Ellen White, or recrucify Jesus Christ, the source of the Gift of Prophecy . ..We just need to be happy, we are not the only ones, standing on the watch tower, looking up the cloud, showing the size of dark cloud about the size of human hand…coming out way….NOT TO DESTROY THE EARTH…but to come and pick us up…it will get closer and look like an asteroid on fire, but IT IS OUR LORD!…and angels massing together, and we know…THAT MASS…attracks MASS…but not in a bad way….They are coming….the light in the sky….is not a train wreck coming our way! IT IS JESUS!
No wonder Nasa is fearful to tell us….Ellen White has good insight on the last crisis.
AN IMPRESSIVE SCENE
“In the visions of the night a very impressive scene passed before me. I saw an immense ball of fire fall among some beautiful mansions, causing their instant destruction. I heard someone say “We knew that the judgments of God were coming upon the earth, but we did not know that they would come so soon.” Others, with agonized voices, said: “You knew! Why then did you not tell us? We did not know.” On every side I heard similar words of reproach spoken.
In great distress I awoke. I went to sleep again, and I seemed to be in a large gathering. One of authority was addressing the company, before whom was spread out a map of the world. He said that the map pictured God’s vineyard, which must be cultivated. As light from heaven shone upon anyone, that one was to reflect the light to others. Lights were to be kindled in many places, and from these lights still other lights were to be kindled.
The words were repeated: “Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot behind. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick: and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.“ Matthew 5:13-16
I saw jets of light shining from cities and villages, and from the high places and the low places of the earth. God’s word was obeyed, and as a result there were memorials for Him in every city and village. His truth was proclaimed throughout the world.
Then this map was removed and another put in its place. On it light was shining from a few places only. The rest of the world was in darkness, with only a glimmer of light here and there. Out Instructor said: “This darkness is the result of men’s following their own curse. They have cherished hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil. They have made questioning and faultfinding and accusing the chief business of their lives. Their hearts are not right with God. They have hidden their light under a bushel.”
Volume TT 9 p. 23
Thank You, Atoday for giving a voice to a subject, I’ve studied very long to give. . .I pray it is not to late.
Sincerely, Connie