Day 2 of Annual Council: Fear and Loathing in Silver Spring
by Monte Sahlin
By AT News Team, October 10, 2014
Fear of losing control, what the Adventist News Network (ANN) called the "elephant in the room," seemed palpable at the Annual Council of the governing body of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination during its first full day, Friday (October 10). In a leadership development seminar church administrators openly discussed the fact that at least some of them will likely not be re-elected at the General Conference (GC) Session next summer and the fears expressed by many about possible reactions to a pending decision on gender equality in clergy ordination.
"It is clear that leadership feels great angst about what can happen in San Antonio next year," wrote Adventist Today editor J. David Newman, who is a press observer at the meeting. "The whole morning was devoted to what happens if you do not get elected, and what to do if the GC Session does not vote your way on women’s ordination."
In no uncertain terms, the seminar prepared the more than 330 committee members, most of them church administrators, to face the reality that next year they might not be asked to return to their present job. Top leaders in the Adventist denomination are generally appointed to five-year terms of office and then must be re-elected based on review by a nominating committee and the vote of constituency delegates. Until recently re-election was common, and many leaders had long careers in what are defined in organizational bylaws as temporary positions.
Pastor Pardon Mwansa, a vice president of the GC, kicked off the workshop with a presentation entitled, “The Nominating Committee Decides to Make a Change.” He discussed the need for humility "when you are not re-elected," wrote Newman. Invoking lessons from Old Testament characters Daniel and Samuel, Mwansa said that a person elected to a denominational office has replaced someone, and that it would also happen to them. “We are called to serve and minister, and not to an office or a position,” Mwansa said.
Several denominational officials from various parts of the world offered case studies on how to prepare for a change in leadership, or in some situations, how to make a needed change at an administrative position. Several delegates said a change in leadership can both help the denomination and send a signal to the person being re-assigned.
There were frank case studies of “Pastor Upward Mobility” and “Pastor Superdose” led by key officials. "This was followed by a wonderful monologue given by Delbert Johnson," director of the denomination's retirement office. "He was seated at a desk with memorabilia from his conference president days and talked to his chair about how wonderful it was to be a leader and how sad it would be if he did not continue to be a leader."
Dr. G. T. Ng, the denomination's number two officer, gave "a delightful and humorous presentation [on] 'Appointment and Disappointment,' again dealing with the subject of not being re-elected." He emphasized "the need to be a humble leader." This was followed by two more case studies on the same subject. "It almost seemed to be overkill," wrote Newman from the meeting.
These presentations are unprecedented, a “taboo subject,” according to ANN. Elections and leaders' hopes for re-election are typically not discussed openly. The fact that this item was on the agenda is evidence of concern that next July at least some in the auditorium might see their current position assigned to someone else.
“Change brings innovation. Change ensures that we keep focused, and we might step back if we do not change,” said Maria Fraser, a lay member from the Southern Africa Union Conference. “There will be weaknesses in everyone, but the secret is for the team to synergize all their attributes and energies so that we can have the best for the Church.”
Pastor Don Livesay, president of the Lake Union Conference in the United States, urged his colleagues in the room to subject themselves to periodic evaluations. “We as administrators typically would rather have a root canal than be evaluated. Therefore, we don’t know where we’re hitting it right and missing it wrong,” Livesay said.
Livesay also called for evaluations to be formalized throughout the denomination, which would enhance accountability and balance in an administrator’s leadership and personal life. “If our life falls apart because we’re not re-elected, we verify not being re-elected,” he said.
Ng implored committee members, who include the officers of the 13 world divisions and the presidents of the 132 union conferences, to view their jobs through the lens of stewardship. “If you are elected to the same position, then you will become a steward of that new position.” He urged church administrators to follow his custom at the end of each term, bringing a moving box into his office and thanking his administrative assistant for the time they have worked together, visibly prepared to leave his job. Ng distributed a miniature box to the committee members as a reminder of this point.
Also on Friday, Pastor Mark Finley, the well-known evangelist, now retired, spoke for nearly an hour on “unity in the body of Christ.” He addressed how leaders on both sides of the women’s ordination debate would react if a potential vote next year at GC Session differed from their own convictions.
Finley said the issue went beyond women’s ordination and had implications on how the Adventist movement will work through other points of disagreement. He spent most of his time on three “flashpoints” from the book of Acts that threatened the unity of the early church. “Dissension deters you from mission. That’s the devil’s strategy,” he said.
Finley reviewed three New Testament stories in which the church had to make choices about customs and leaders, and what happens when church leaders, corporately, make the wrong choice. The first story was the selection of someone to replace Judas among the twelve apostles. They nominated two individuals and then cast lots to select Matthias. Finley imaged that there might have been two sides, one which nominated Joseph and the other which nominated Matthias. In the end they all had to come together after the choice was made.
The second story involved the selection of seven persons to handle the conflict over who got food in Acts 6. The Greek widows complained they were not receiving help, so seven Greek men were appointed. Since they were Greek, they would understand the needs of the Greek widows. Finley emphasized that much prayer preceded the decision.
Then came the argument over whether circumcision was a salvation issue. The local leaders in different places had different opinions on the matter, so a general council of Christian leaders was convened in Jerusalem. A larger body met and rendered its decision, which the local churches were asked to follow.
This set the stage for Finley's third story, about Paul’s return to Jerusalem. The elders at Jerusalem, the church leaders, convinced Paul to shave his head, take vows, and perform certain ceremonies at the temple to show he was a good Jew. This backfired, and Paul was arrested. However, it provided an opportunity for Paul to extend his mission to Rome, where he had been wanting to go.
Finley said this was probably not God’s "plan A" but his ultimate purpose was still fulfilled: preaching the gospel in Rome. Adventist Today editor Newman summarized Finley's point; "Even if we get it wrong at San Antonio regarding women’s ordination, God will still find a way for His ultimate will to be achieved."
The New Testament pattern for resolving differences, Finley said, included prayer, seeking biblical answers, discussing the issues, considering what is best for the church’s mission and then finally making a decision on the issue together. Addressing the pending decision on ordination, Finley said, “May I make a humble suggestion? When you’ve studied an issue for 40 years and discussed it and discussed it and discussed it, pretty soon people have pretty well made up their minds on either side of the question. Continual discussion and debate only furthers division.”
Finley said he hoped the Adventist Church, like the early church, could learn to live with the decision on a major issue because people on both sides of the debate “were committed to the same Jesus. Whatever decision is ultimately made on the ordination of women, and I pray that this church will make the right decision, but whatever decision is ultimately made, my prayer is that nothing but God’s unified and prophetic mission will be the central focus of our lives,” Finley said.
"What Finley did not cover," Newman observed, "is when God does not make His ultimate will known, when He allows mistakes to continue. We could use King Saul as a good example. It took almost forty years before God made changes in the leadership of the nation."
Finley’s presentation was a preamble to next week, when the committee is expected to discuss the matter of women’s ordination, reported ANN. The committee must vote in order to set the topic as an agenda item for the 2015 GC Session.
The committee commissioned a study by Bible scholars on the theology of ordination two years ago to try to resolve a debate that has gone on since the early 1970s. At the 1990 GC Session in Indianapolis the denomination decided to authorize the ordination of women serving as local elders and to extend Commissioned Minister credentials to women hired as pastors, but not to permit ordination for women clergy because of concerns about "unity."
I understand that the GC in session first referred the question of ordaining women to a committee for further study in the late 1800s (my sources differ regarding the exact date). So we have been "studying" this question for more than 100 years now.
And, in fact, came back with a Yes answer. In 1881 the committee said they couldn't find any biblical reason why a qualified woman could not be a pastor. During the rest of that century and the early 20th, there were very many women evangelists and pastors, and quite a few of the churches we have today (often the ones most mired in a rigidly conservative male headship model) were founded by women.
Fear and Loathing in Silver Spring
I think this headline is very misleading. The article discusses fears but I saw no mention nor even a suggestion of loathing.
May I respectfully suggest to the Atoday news team that you re-think this headline? You might have thought it was a godd attention-getter, but you only undermine your own credibility with this kind of headline.
Or perhaps the "Fear and Loathing" is a reaction of the "left coast" where I live to the happenings on the "right coast" where the GC lives?
Brother Hamstra,
I believe that the "loathing" may come on the part of those who see their leaders caring more about the political ramifications of a decision than they care about whether the decision advances God's cause or not. To me, when a person cares more about maintaining their "position" than keeping God's remnant church on the strait and narrow path God has outlined, it is time for them to be replaced.
Members of the GC session are chosen by constituents to represent God and a "thus saith the LORD" at the meetings, not to worry about maintaining their position. Decisions made in committee should always be focussed on what Christ wants for his church, not popular opinion.
I believe that when a person starts worrying more about keeping their position than following the will of God, it is time for them to be replaced. Otherwise the GC will end up just like the U.S. Congress, worthless and in need of being scrapped.
The thought that "members of the GC session are chosen by constituents to represent God" is a novel thought to an old-time Adventist like me. What the representatives vote is a statement of what we hope and pray is God's expressed will. We do not pretend that a GC vote is God's eternal will. Or haven't I been reading my Adventist Review correctly?
If there is that much fear in Silver Spring, that is good. No, it is wonderful! Maybe it is time our church leaders were reminded that it is God who is in control and their job is to be servants to Him.
I'm not sure I understand which incumbents are supposed to be concerned about not being re-elected. Messages like this could be a warning that a top-down housecleaning is coming – or they could be a warning that top leadership is losing control, that the "barbarians are at the door," so be prepared.
I seriously doubt that Wilson is prepared to surrender top-down control or Church unity, or that he wants to convey a feeling that his agenda may well be repudiated next year. Even if that might happen, Wilson has always tended to wildly overestimate his advantage and power. Can anyone seriously believe that Wilson is resigned to defeat or wants to send signals of possible defeat a year before GC? Maybe this is a rope-a-dope to embolden and smoke out dissenters.
Am I missing something? Perhaps I didn't read the article carefully enough. But what I read could as easily be interpreted as a message that a lot of leaders who think their positions are secure enough to permit them an independent voice better think twice. I wonder if wishful thinking isn't leading some of the commenters here to misinterpret the tea leaves. I know the lead sentence concludes that the fear is over losing control. But why should we assume that the Wilson factions are the fearful leaders rather than the more progressive factions?
That's where my thoughts/fears lean from the abundant counsel to prepare to leave their jobs–a subtle warning to leaders who dare to speak and act independently of top leadership. Otherwise it would be good counsel. I wish many of our church leadership positions had term limits.
I think the biggest piece of fear-mongering is in Ted Wilson's sppech on Day 3. A large portion of that speech is devoted to the various ways in which Satan is seeking to undermine the church. And I agree that most if not all of what Wilson says in this regard is probably true.
It is certainly true that fear is an effective short-term motivator. If enough fear-talk is whipped-up between now and next summer, the likely result may be to circle the wagons in defense of the status quo ante. Anything that threatens this status quo ante becomes associated with the attempts of Satan to undermine the church. Anyone who threatens this status quo ante becomes a witting or unwitting tool of Satan.
I my career in secular business, and also in a few church and school planning sessions, we have done a Strngths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (SWOT) analysis. One leads-off by identifying the strengths, then the weaknesses, then the opportunities, then the threats. A realistic appraisal of your situation encompasses all of these. Leading-off with threats or with opportunites is putting the cart before the horse and tends to result in an overly optimistic or pessimistic assessment. Actions taken based upon an unrealistic SWOT assessment usually prove to be unfortunate or untimely.
It is also interesting that some of the same items can appear on the lists both of strenghts and also of weaknesses, likewise the lists both of of opportunities and also of threats. Yes it is very true that our greatest strengths can also be our greatest weaknesses, and that our greatest opportunities can also be our geatest threats.
There is no fear in love, for perfect love casts out fear. A fundamental premise of the Christian world view as I understand it, is that love is ultimately a stronger long-term motivator than fear.
Something to think about 8-).
In fairness, similar comments woiuld apply to the fear-mongering that sometimes appears on this web site.
The most telling differences between liberals and conservatives are not so much what they love but what they fear. This is true in religion and also in politics. I find it to be particulary ironic and even amusing that some regular commenters at this web site assume a conservative stance regarding religious disputes while assuming a liberal stance regarding political disputes, and vice versa 8-).
That is indeed interesting, Jim. I don't so much see it as a conservative/liberal divide, as those terms are not very meaningful without context. I see it more as a philosophical dichotomy. It has always seemed to me that those who prefer a strong centralized federal government, with low personal freedom, and decision/policy making concentrated in a specially trained elite class of bureaucrats, should prefer a similarly structured church organization. Why do so many SDA "liberals," who are strongly opposed to Church political power and moral/doctrinal agendas being controlled by the G.C., place great faith in the power of a strong federal government when it comes to implementing and protecting agendas with which they agree? It strikes me as an unprincipled "ends-justifies-the-means" philosophy.
I would submit that big government political liberals who are big government conservatives when it comes to Church doctrine and organization are actually philsophically quite consistent, as are small government conservatives who also believe in a more congregational Church structure. Thus, Stephen Foster, representing the former, and me, representing the latter, are more consistent than say Erv Taylor or Elaine Nelson (where is she, by the way?) who, in my view, just want to have it their way, regardless of what means it takes to achieve their objectives.
It's an interesting discussion point.
Jim,
Central to what you are describing is the estimation and management of risk. There is an old truism in business that we in the church would do well to learn because it applies with great reality: The greater the risk, the greater the return and the less we are willing to risk, the less return we will receive.
We're engaged in spiritual warfare, which presents us with the ultimate extremes of risk, both complete victory and utter defeat, with nothing in-between. So if we're going to achieve great things for God, we've got to move forward with boldness that is focused on victory instead of the timidity that focuses on failure and nurtures fear. The greatest risk the church faces is that we've become so focused on debating doctrines that we've lost sight of the personal, empowered relationship God wants us to have with Him so we can become empowered to do great things for Him. That is why people are focusing on threats instead of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. We need leadership that is focused on reconnecting with God so we can have the victory over sin that God has promised. Do we have such leaders anywhere among our church leadership? I hope so, because I don't see many and the need is great.
“Progressive Adventists seem to wish we become more like the Methodists – a community of religious fellowship with no central core of belief or authority. I submit that should we follow this path we will indeed become like the Methodists.”
I believe that you may be onto something with this Jim. Progressive Adventists appear to want a non-denominational denomination with no particular beliefs; or should I say no beliefs in particular. A lack of central authority or organization—disintegration—would naturally flow from that model.
“Conservative Adventists seem to wish we hew to a course combining the strong central authority of the Catholics with the doctrinal cohesion of the Calvinists, steering closely to the religious writings of our founders.”
While I certainly agree that conservative Adventists want “doctrinal cohesion…steering closely to the religious writings of our founders;” many conservatives do not value “strong central authority” very much. I view doctrinal cohesion as perhaps the one real benefit of strong central authority.
~~"May I respectfully suggest to the Atoday news team that you re-think this headline?"
It's an attention getter obviously. Could one compare it to "yellow Journalism"?
Term limits should start at the local church level. Having the same Pastor 10 and 20 years is not a good administrative practice.
Maranatha
I understand your concern with the duration of a person in a position. I think the root question is measuring whether they have been called by God and equipped to serve in a particular role, then if they are being effective. We have a lot of people in positions who are not equipped by God to do what they are trying to do, yet we remain tolerant of their marginal performance instead of replacing them.
Those of us who know GT. Ng very well, know that the Friday subject of reelection was not from fear or "loathing." GT's philosopy has always been, "You are elected for a term." He models what I hear was shared on Friday by always packing up his office and saying good-bye to his staff. I am persuaded that the theme Friday was his brain child and would have been done even if "San Antonio"didnt loom. You and I and AT might guess that it is especially timely because of San Antonio; but the philosopy of "I Shall not be Moved" needed challenged. I say Bravo to GT and the others that led out in this "taboo" topic!
Thank you for your personal insight, Lester. Very helpful! It's remarkable how we can abstract words, put them under a microscope and, if we do not know the author or the speaker, go off on rabbit trails that are projections of our own fears, biases, and aspirations. Perhaps, if we spent more time personally getting to know the Author of Scripture, we would hold more lightly our conclusions about what kind of propositional truths should be abstracted from its words and cast in concrete.
One of the primary reasons I cannot concur that we as a Church should "go back to the future" is the emphasis on fear and intimidation that pervaded the preaching during my formative years as the eldest child of an Adventist family of the 1950s. This was the historic message, in verity back then, to paraphrase Ellen White; the whole Advent message originated in a climate and preachment cemented in fear.To return to that crucible once again would be most tragic.
As a journalist I have noted how virtually impossible it is for human beings individually, let alone in mass assemblies, to make intelligent decisions while buffeted and accosted by fear. The whole concept of free will is premised on the presumption that people can indulge the luxury of making decisions, without the paranoia created by dire premonitions of destruction. If Advent truth requires a heavy suspension of fear to activate it in the human spirit, something is wrong.
This is why in my life, bringing wellbeing to human beings is somewhat more important than persuading them to follow a formulaic package of doctrines, as turbocharged by fear. People who are traumatized by abject fear rarely make coherent spiritual decisions, or ones that endure any length of time.This is why, in the judgment, I believe the parable tells us that those followers of Christ who have placed emphasis on alleviation of mental and physical anguish in others will be saved before those who have performed oratorical miracles in the name of Christ. Foundational to planting the seeds of the gospel is preparation of the human spirit, relieving it from fear and compulsive paranoia, and presenting the virtuous and loving Christ as the most persuasive inducement to follow the Christian faith. If we cast out fear and loathing, the kingdom will come much sooner and converts will stay much longer, out of appreciation rather than fear. Yes, the sociopaths must be induced by fear (perhaps), but does the Church really need more sociopaths in its pews?
I have been an Adventist for less than a year, but began my walk with Christ nearly two years ago. I didn't become an Adventist based on the friendship or an evangelistic effort, I became an Adventist, specifically a Seventh-day Adventist because after intensive bible study I found it to be the only church that had a foundation that rested in the Bible. In the 50's, fear was the method of persuasion in all churches. I can remember the fire and brimstone sermons given by our preacher, African Methodist Episcopal preacher, and the fear I had concerning God because of them. But God is love; Jesus came to show us that. He has also taught me that I am to accept people where they are, just as he accepted me. So I cannot identify with the church you are talking about. I can however identify with the church today, and the people appear lax, sleeping. Events are occuring that are clearly outlined in the Bible by Jesus as foretelling his soon coming, yet our pastors are preaching a "God loves you too much to destroy you" message just as the rest of the churches are. We are suppose to be taking the third angel's message to the world. Is it a popular message? No. Why? Because people want to believe that God is going to give them a "get out of hell free" card simply because he loves us. That's not truth. The truth is that God knows we would be miserable in heaven with our corrupted, selfish hearts so we must come out of our old ways and learn the ways of Christ, our example; we need to prepare for the change. We must be reborn and allow the Holy Spirit to change the inherited DNA of the first Adam into the DNA of Jesus, the 2nd Adam. The 3rd angel's message is basically, "change or die." My job is not to prove this to anyone. My job is to go tell. All the conversation about anything else is just something the devil has invented to take our eyes off of our job. Go tell.
Matno,
Some good counsel here in keeping with the book of James we are studying now in SS. But be careful to include we can't change by ourselves. We must have God's Spirit that comes to the mind that desires true right doing and honesty. God doesn't change our DNA any more than He would provide a missing limb, but He gives us His power to live with our damaged bodies, accept them, live healthfully, and obey each day at a time with fervent prayer. Sometimes we fall, but He picks us up because we choose Him and hate our sin. Sins that hurt others are especially heinous as is pride that destroys learning and growing.
Always remember, His life covers our sins and gives us motive for change for the right reasons. The third angel's message is righteousness through faith in Christ.
You are perfectly correct; without the Holy Spirit we could not change. He comforts, guides, teaches and seals us among some things. But I truly believe that for us to be able to stand before God, who is a consuming fire, our DNA must change. That is the new birth process. Thank you for adding the Holy Spirit, Sr. Ella.
I guess I don't understand what you mean; a biological expert could explain about the DNA. We are born with sinful natures and will have them until we receive our glorified bodies at the Second Coming. Like I was saying, when one is born with a disability, whether a missing limb, mental condition, even gender identities, etc. it doesn't change, because it is not a sin to have these things. It's what we do with them. They are the result of sin in the world, but not necessarily the individual.
Sr. Ella, my son works with DNA every day. In the bible we are told that Jesus will only return when he has a people who are able to stand, without his intercession, before God. The only way we can do that is by being sin-free because our God is a consuming fire and sin cannot live in the presence of God. Sister White also tells us his.
In 1 Cornithians 15:45 we are told that "the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit." That word, quickening, is translated from "Zoopoieo" (2227) and it means to restore life. Because we are dead in sin. Jesus came to save us "from our sin" not in our sin. (Matthew 1:21) The only thing that will change about us when Jesus comes are these wretched bodies; the character, our DNA, will be changed before Jesus comes. Now I am not sure about this venue, but if you want I can give you my email address and I will show you biblically that if we are living when Christ comes and have one sin we will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming. We are covered with Christ's robe of righteousness, true, but what is that robe of righteousness? It is his character. As Paul so aptly puts it, by beholding or looking at Jesus, we become changed our nature becomes changed. I will quote only sections out of 2 Peter 1:1-8, but Peter says, "whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious that by these you might become partakers of the divine nature…" We are not just covered with Christ's righteousness, his righteousness becomes our righteousness. We have a change from Adam's sinful DNA into the divine, sinless DNA. This is what both the Old and New Testament teach.
In the bible we are told that Jesus will only return when he has a people who are able to stand, without his intercession, before God.
Where in the Bible did you find this statement?
Before starting on this journey, Brother Jim, let us review God's instruction on how to study the bible. "Whom shall he (the Holy Spirit) teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that have been weaned from the milk (simple truths) and drawn from the breast. For precept MUST BE upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little." (Isaiah 28:9, 10) Just before Isaiah uttered these instructions he tells us that "… they (God's people) also have erred through wine (doctrine) and through strong drink and are out of the way." (Christ is the way) This verse tells us that most of Gods people are not following Christ. Since spiritual things are spiritually discerned: I urge you to plead for our great Teacher and Guide; the Holy Spirit. Please read these verses, one by one, but all together to form the picture of salvation that you must see in your mind before you will believe.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."( Matthew 5:48)
2. "…go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)
3. All of Hebrews 12, but especially versus 1, 2; 22-24; 26-29
4. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus Christ our LORD. According to his divine power hath given to us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature…" (2 Peter 1:2-4)
5. "But if we walk in the light as he (Jesus) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)
6. "Behold, I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
7. "The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:…Who can stand before his indignation? And who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." (Nahum 1:3, 6)
8. "Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that has clean hands, and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation." (Psalms 24:3-5)
9. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation," (John 5:29)
10. Christ's declaration for those who are living when he comes: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
When you put all these verses together, you see a picture forming: a picture of a people whose characters have been purified by the indwelling Holy Spirit until they are perfect replicas of Jesus Christ. These are the 144,000; these are the living saints who are God’s witnesses to the universe that it is possible for man to live in complete obedience to his commandments of love, even after being born in sin. God's love (as shown in the commandments) is his character. The 144,000 have God's character BEFORE Jesus comes.
Remember the Great Controversy is not about you and me, it is about the vindication of our Heavenly Father’s name and character. These people who are living when Christ comes have been purified through following our perfect pattern, Jesus, and washed by his blood of all sin and are able to stand before God without an intercessor. Remember, that when Jesus comes the 2nd time, he will have set aside his job as High Priest, our intercessor, so for that time period while he travels from heaven to earth, there will be no intercessor pleading with God for your sins.
This 144,000 are God's witnesses, the people God has formed for himself that shall show forth God's praise. (Isaiah 43:10, 21)
Sister Matno,
Adventists have been debating this line of reasoning for a century and I have no desire to debate this with you.
I do think it is fair to point-out that some of these verses describe the Second Advent where we will indeed exchange our corruptible flesh (including our corrupted DNA) for incorruptible. According to 1 Corinthians 15 this happens in a moment when Jesus returns.
As for the rest, keep your eyes fixed on Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) and report back to us when you think you are ready to stand in the presence of God without spot or wrinkle. The more I understand about Jesus the more I see how sinful and unworthy I am, and the more I need to depend upon Him to make intercession for me (Hebrews 7:24-25).
Thank you, Brother Jim. I have placed my eyes firmly on Jesus because by beholding I become changed. God bless you and your family.
The only way for humans to be able to stand before God id to wear the "robe of righteousness" of the unique (monogenes) God-man who is currently standing in the Divine Resence, sitting on the Divine Throne, or whatever other analogy you wish to employ. He is our hope and surety.
Yes indeed, Ed
Would that every preacher, every evangelist were to take seriously the assurance to Ellen White by her mother. Ellen White reconstructs the conversation in 1T 39 It is a very good place to start … and would be a more than good enough place to end … there are are many volumes of the Testimonies.
Here is the core of the passage …
"But, mother," said I, "do you really believe that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection? Do you think that the Christian, when he dies, does not go immediately to heaven, nor the sinner to hell?"
She answered: "The Bible gives us no proof that there is an eternally burning hell. If there is such a place, it should be mentioned in the Sacred Book."
"Why, mother!" cried I, in astonishment, "this is strange talk for you! If you believe this strange theory, do not let any one know of it; for I fear that sinners would gather security from this belief, and never desire to seek the Lord."
"If this is sound Bible truth," she replied, "instead of preventing the salvation of sinners, it will be the means of winning them to Christ. If the love of God will not induce the rebel to yield, the terrors of an eternal hell will not drive him to repentance. Besides, it does not seem a proper way to win souls to Jesus, by appealing to one of the lowest attributes of the mind, abject fear. The love of Jesus attracts; it will subdue the hardest heart."
I am not sure if this was told me in response to my statement or not, but if it is it would appear that the main point of my posting was missed, that God is love, but in love he will destroy anyone who is clinging to sin. Bottom line. I am sorry if this truth bothers any of you. The apostles were very clear on this point; we need to be the same.
You've made some nice comments here, matno1949. Welcome to the Church and to the conversation.
I appreciate much of what you say. God is a God of infinite love. But if we are true to Scripture, instead of forcing God into some kind of philosophical straitjacket that makes him a mere projection of contemporary mores and values, we must acknowledge that is also a God of judgment, who holds His followers, as well as the wicked, accountable. In that, we agree.
I am, however, bothered by the notion that there is some kind of straight and narrow path "outlined" for us all to follow, and that some group of elected leaders has the lanterns to light the way. This feels quite Catholic to me. I cringe when I read your statement that GC members are chosen to represent God. That feels almost blasphemous to me.
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life," in response to the plea, "Show us the way." He didn't say, "I've outlined the way," or "My teachings are the way." He didn't even say, "Listen to Peter, or John, or this guy Saul that I'm going to bring into the picture." He said nothing to encourage the notion that the future leaders of the early Christian church, by virtue of their offices, collectively or individually, should have divine authority, or even be viewed as representatives of God.
We should trust the Holy Spirit in our individual lives. And we should also trust that the Holy Spirit will bring us into unity on some issues, though not necessarily others. We should further recognize that such unity, if it comes, may not come without conflict.
It is strange to me that you feel it is blasphemous to say the General Conference members were chosen by God to represent us when I was simply quoting scripture. In Romans 13 Paul tells us that the "powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resists the power, resists the ordinance of God." How plain is that?
Everything I read in the Bible and everything God has shown me says I am to go tell people about Jesus. Not some pie in the sky Jesus, but the Jesus I have met and recognized as my friend because of the miracles he has accomplished in my life. And there are many.The very fact that I am having a conversation with you about Jesus is a miracle. Go tell is the job Christ has given to each of us.
Yes, Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life and he added, no one comes unto the Father but by me. "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him in whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14) So Jesus added speaking to the apostles and to me, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations…" Let us pause here. A teacher has dominion over the student. If the student has questions, he goes to the teacher for clarification. We nominated and elected representatives that hold this same position in our church. "…baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe ALL THINGS I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:19, 20) So Brother Nathan, you are incorrect in your statement, "He said nothing to encourage the notion that the future leaders of the early Christian church, by virtue of their offices collectively or individually, should have authority or even be viewed as representatives of God." Jesus did send the disciples out, he sent them out with authority and power (Luke 10:19, 20) over … the spirits. In some cases he audibly directed their movements. Philip and the Ethiopian; Paul on the road to Damascus; Ananias going to lay hands on Saul. These were all leaders, teachers, chosen by God to lead his church then, just as our delegates are also chosen by God to lead his church today. To believe anything else is to say that God is no longer in control of his church. I know that isn't true, because "we are the apple of his eye." And he has personally promised me, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Why would he bring me to a church, a fish out of water, and then leave me to sink in the mire of unchosen leaders? God wouldn't. "..he that has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." That is God's promise. I believe it. No soft-spoken, subtile hint that God has forsaken his church will persuade me that God is not in control of everything that happens in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Now I am fully aware that "seven women (meaning all churches, including ours) will take hold of one man (Jesus), saying, We will eat our own bread (doctrine) and wear our own apparel (righteousness): only let us be called by your name to take away our reproach." (Isaiah 4:1) and I am aware that the day is now upon us, but is not yet. That too is under God's control. I believe, however, that whatever God allows to occur is for my good. So while I await the arrival of my Savior to take me home I occupy my time studying the scriptures and telling people about this marvelous man that I met named Jesus. All the high level arguments and discussions about women's ordination, etc. are simply issues Satan has introduced to waste our time. Time that should be spent telling as many people as we can about Jesus so they can choose life or choose death. Once I tell them, I can encourage them, but it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict them. I say, let us be about our Father's business.
Sister Matno,
If you carefully read Romans 1:1-6 you will see that Paul is writing about secular authorities. I do not think you would claim that we pay taxes to the church, or that the church wields a sword to punish wrongdoers? Paul here teaches that God has instituted civil authority to keep evil in check and punish wrongdoers. The civil authorities have power to compel aubmission.
On the other hand Jesus told his followers NOT to lord it over those under their care but rather to be servants unto them. And Paul tells ALL believers (including our learders) to submit to one another in love (not just to our leaders) as unto the Lord.
matno: 'I have been an Adventist for less than a year, but began my walk with Christ nearly two years ago.'
Hi matno, much welcome. My strong advice from 'surviving' in this place, coming to this forum for a few years includes acknowledging:
I only say that because as a relatively 'new' Adventist, coming to a place like Adventist Today can actually be a faith-destroying exercise. Don't let the term 'Adventist' in 'Adventist Today' fool you. It is as much 'ex-Adventist Today' or 'Anti-Adventist Today.'
But the disclaimer in the FAQ to this website does make clear this place is not a 'mouth organ' for the Church. This really is an open forum in every sense of the word, which ultimately is its strength.
Steve said, "This really is an open forum in every sense of the word, which ultimately is its strength."
Amen, and I would add that this is our goal at AToday; to give all a safe(ish) place to come to discuss whatever feels important to them, controversial or not. And yes, sometimes it's important to others besides the original poster, and often it's divisive, so I think it's essential that we always continue to encourage a tone of love and openness, as this particular thread of comments shows well.
Thank you, Brother Steve, for your alert. I noticed that some of the commentors seemed discouraged which is unfortunate. I know, however, in whom I believe and I know that he which has begun a good work in me with complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. God has been so good to me; a sinner saved by grace. Perhaps Christ can use me to help the disgruntled see that there is hope and life and love in Christ Jesus, and they will come back to the foot of the cross. For that is the only place where we see our desperate need of Jesus.
The fear at this meeting was the fear of disunity, of a major disagreement that cannot easily be settled even if a vote is taken "once and for all" by the GC Session. For example, there continues to be argument on both sides of an issue from the 1888 GC Session. It still divides Adventists to this day.
The loathing is that leaders actually lack the power to settle such a deeply divisive issue. In fact, we have so many checks and balances in our polity that "no one has the power to do anything, really" (to quote a long-time veteran of our hierarchy). We have both a professional, full-time set of bishops (to use a generic term from the KJV for church administrators) and a presbyterian set of policy-making bodies with defined purviews that are independent.
No matter what is done, issues about the role of women and other evolving social structures will not go away. And evidently Jesus is not ready to come and put an end to this fear and loathing. He clearly has higher priorities.
Please, Brother Monte, don't place the churches failure to act on Jesus. He has a clear plan and it is all outlined in the Bible. Our job as believers in Christ is to carry out our part of the plan, not to worry about those who don't carry out theirs. God will handle it. He is in control. I just must go tell his message of salvation while showing the same love to those I meet that Jesus has shown to me.
May God bless you today, and may your Sabbath Day be happy.
matno1949, i too, welcome you matno. i believe we have a similar story to tell. i was not born into SDA as most here presenting were. i was in my early forties when i accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. i earnestly believe God the Holy Spirit is my constant companion, guiding me, informing me, and silently speaking to my soul. Most every time i respond to the blogs here at atoday is the message i believe is given me by the Holy Spirit, speaking to my spirit. God love you, for your sharing your faith to all mankind. Obviously you are a ardent student of the Bible. Most here believe the Bible has many adlibs of the many scribes that have told their accounts, using metaphors, anecdotes, analogies, etc, along with that inspired by the Holy Spirit.That there are inerancies and contradictions as well as literal God given passages. One must have accepted the Holy Spirit's wooing (as you seem to have been) to discern the TRUTH of God.
Hence there is a lot of questioning of various stories and details by those actively involved here, as well as the many thousands of silent readers tuned in here. We are inspired by your zeal and love of Jesus. Recognize there are Christian belivers here, as well as agnostics, and atheists, but you can hold your own because you are led by God the Holy Spirit, our directconnection to the GODHEAD, including God the Father the Ancient of Days, and Jesus Christ, our Creator and Redeemer. Brother matno, have an inspired Sabbath day in the Lord.
Thank you, Brother Earl, but it is Sister Matno. My name is Marilyn. When I was young my older sister, who was 4 at the time, kept telling me, No. She couldn't say Marilyn so would say, Mat No! The name stuck and I am Matno to my family. (smile). Thank you for your encouragement. God is good and so loving. Just today he stopped a car that was zooming into my rear end. I didn't even see him coming, but God did and the accident was avoided through no effort of my own. So I don't mind telling others about his love and constant mercy towards me.
Keep celebrating the works of God in your daily life! He touches us in a whole lot of personal and intimate ways that sometimes are easy to overlook.
Oh, I will. After years of living being "successful" in the eyes of the world, but completely miserable in truth it is so wonderful to have someone take care of all my problems for me. I simply ask, and trust and before I know it, it is taken care of. Of course some things Father doesn't give me, and I fuss a little, but now know that whatever he withholds is because no matter what I think about it (and I am short-sighted) he knows it would not be in my best interests. What a great, wonderful, powerful, loving Father he is.
Amen!
not sure if there is 'room' for a 'light side' to this thread but….
http://barelyadventist.com/over-my-dead-body-ceremony-unites-church-leaders-in-opposition-to-losing-their-positions-at-the-2015-general-conference-session/
Hello all. I just wanted to testify to the power of God to work things out for us; and his attention to the little details of our lives.
Today my sister and I closed on a home we purchased.. Somehow or another I noted the appointment was at 1:30 pm when it was actually at 10:30 am. At 8:45 a.m my sister asks, What time is the appointment. I give my information, but she called to check. 10:30! Now we are on high alert; neither of us dressed and we still had to go to the bank to get the check. As we entered the car and I prayed for traveling mercies, I added; please clear traffic and make a way for us to be on time. Now I am in Seattle Washington. 9:00 is still rush hour, but magically as traffic approached each signal the light changed to green. Each time I thanked him. When we arrived at the bank; it was completely emply of customers. We were in an out in minutes. When we got back in the car, traveling was like a holiday, traffic was so light. We arrived with time to spare, and I thanked him for his tender mercy toward me. God is good, all the time. Never believe that he has deserted you or his church. He is always nearby just waiting for his children to call upon him. Praise him, my brothers and sisters, for he is truly worthy to be praised.