David and the Doobie Brothers
by Stephen Foster
I don’t know what anyone really believes; because I cannot read minds. Let me repeat that. I don’t know what anyone really believes; because I cannot read minds.
What I would like to do is pose a question to which I have a personal answer: who believes that the fool has really said in his heart, or mind, that there is no God?
I truly do not know who really is convinced that God does not exist. I am aware that many people who claim not to believe in God do so literally for the sake of argument. That is to say that they are not sure, but are countering the dogmatic beliefs of people like me; for example.
They are in effect playing the role of ‘devil’s advocate’ to make the point that, since there is no quantifiable, falsifiable, empirical evidence of God’s existence, one should not act or sound or be so sure of something that one can’t prove. I get that, and I respect that.
To be perfectly honest, I do not believe that anyone who has participated on this site (that I have read anyway) really believes that God does not exist. Oh, I can think of a few individuals who like to get a rise out of whomever they can; and will say things that would lead most to conclude that they don’t believe there is a God. There’s no doubt about that.
But I don’t think a rational atheist would waste their time with the delusional. A true atheist would seem to understand that “what a fool believes, he sees;” and that it is fruitless to attempt to disprove the existence of the Unprovable.
On the other hand the psalmist David dogmatically declares that “the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.” That is one unambiguous statement, if ever there was one; it seems to me.
My question is do we believe that it is in fact a true statement? Is it true that what a fool does not believe, he does not see. Personally, I believe that it is true.
On the face of it, the verse is simply stating that claiming there is no god is a foolish act. I don't think I've ever met anyone, even a claimed athiest, who had no concept of diety. The difference between the athiest, agnostic and most modern christians is not the existence of God, but their concept of God's power and His potential role in their life.
Of course the Bible does not throw the word “fool” around loosely; and Jesus famously cautioned against us doing so.
I concur that when push comes to shove, many avowed atheists actually know better, but refuse to admit or acknowledge any faith.
I recall an excellent young preacher saying that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the believer sees the hand of God moving in their life whereas the so-called non-believer does not.
This relates somewhat to the acknowledgement/concept of God’s power to which many often refer.
Very true. I saw a great example of that yesterday afternoon when I had a physical therapy appointment to help with my recovery from wrist surgery. We had barely started before the young man guiding me through my exercises asked what church I attended. I'm not one to let such a question fade into history without some exploration, so I began asking about his spiritual background. He has been in and out of several churches in his life but never connected to the power of God. So I shared with him some about my experience with God. He seemed to be listening though I'm not sure how much was sinking in because he was assigned to me for the hour and I was taking advantage of him being a "captive audience." Did he have any particular spiritual challenges that were preventing him from getting to know God better? Not that he could identify. So I told him I was going to be praying for him and I expected very soon when we met again he would have such an issue to talk about. My next appointment is tomorrow (Friday) morning so I'll be very curious to hear what he reports.
'To be perfectly honest, I do not believe that anyone who has participated on this site (that I have read anyway) really believes that God does not exist… But I don’t think a rational atheist would waste their time with the delusional.'
Stephen, you are saying what I have often thought so thankyou for saying this. I have often thought why would an atheist spend so much time on a Christian website? I have likewise thought, surely there must be a bit of belief – even just a spark deep, deep down? Do such people make arguments in the hope, however unlikely, that they will be convinced wrong?
But as you say, none of us can read minds.
Stephen,
I've had a few encounters with professed athiests who thought all belief in God was delusional. A funny thing happened to one I remember: he became a Christian after an encounter with the power of God.
I have found that the favourite topic of Atheists is ………..God!
But I think Stephen Foster's point goes to the many ex-Adventist self-professed non-believers (some of whom prefer to be called agnostic rather than atheist). Many of these regular visitors to AToday spend hundreds and hundreds of hours discussing theological issues, from gay marriage, to women's ordination, to the Sabbath, to eschatology, to Law and Grace – and often quoting scripture to boot. But the question is, why would someone devote so much time to a religion and God they don't believe in?
Is this your point Stephen?
My point is at least two-fold Stephen: 1) as you note, I do want to isolate and highlight the reality that many, if not all, of our atheist and agnostic friends truly believe, or know (even if they aren’t traditional ‘true believers); and 2) I really want to know if others believe that people who truly believe God to be non-existent are foolish.
Discussing religion is not the same as discussing God. There are thousands of religions, and thousands of Christian denominations. All have been a search of God. None own God or have the ability to characterize Him. He is above all organized religion, something too often forgotten. Many people have found God apart from organized religion which is sometimes a poor place to find Him.
The conflation with atheists and agnostics is too common and continually needs claification: Atheists deny that there is a god; Agnostics do not claim to know how, when, where, or what God is–a recognition that God cannot be defined or captured in doctrinal statements. The last is the crux of many discussions: claiming to know what God wants; what we should do to please God; how God acts in history as recorded in the Bible, and much more. This is what agnostics disagree about: the claims made for God that are merely human claims and opinions and that their particular denominational choice has all the answers.
But most people who profess disbelief don't spend hundreds and thousands of hours contributing to a Christian website for a denomination they don't believe in. I have always been puzzled with what you actually believe or disbeliever Elaine.
Sometimes who speak as a fine and educated theologian, quoting Bible texts left, right and centre. Other times you make it very clear you don't believe in the Bible.
Sometimes you say very philosophical and deep things about God. Other times you seem like an atheist (not merely an agnostic), but making such claims that God is just a construct of the human imagination.
I actually see a very big difference between you and say Joe. With Joe, it is clear he is not a believer, and is only talking about religion and not God. With you, it seem you are often talking about God. You only ever seem to flip back to a non-believing stance when someone comes up with an argument you can't counter, where you normally claim bar-lease, denying the reality of God or the authority of the Bible, which five minutes before you were quoting to prove your point.
Does that indicate you are still searching for God, and still secretly hoping to be proven about the truth Adventism?
A interesting and direct response Stephen. I have to admit I've had some of the same questions.
The lack of response is also interesting.
I can be dense but where do the "Doobie Brothers" come in? Are they the atheistic fools you refer to? Just wondering.
Don’t apologize. You are not dense at all. In fact I was advised in advance that some may not get the Doobie Brothers reference.
The Doobie Brothers recorded a song in 1978, written by then-lead singer Michael McDonald, entitled “What a Fool Believes.” The operative line here being “But what a fool believes, he sees;” juxtaposed against David’s assertion that those who don’t believe in the existence of (the invisible) God are the foolish in reality.
Thank you. I do remember the song well but the only reference was in the title.
'You seem to be suggesting that atheists are illogical because they enterain debates about the god they deny-or doubt-this surely is no less logical than those I referenced above.'
No Timo, I don't think that is the point of Stephen's article or my own response to Elaine. As Stephen says in his article:
'To be perfectly honest, I do not believe that anyone who has participated on this site (that I have read anyway) really believes that God does not exist. Oh, I can think of a few individuals who like to get a rise out of whomever they can; and will say things that would lead most to conclude that they don’t believe there is a God. There’s no doubt about that. But I don’t think a rational atheist would waste their time with the delusional.'
I have no doubt that Richard Dawkins is probably an actual atheist. He even spends a lot of time debating with theists about whether God exists. But I don't see him on AToday or any other intra-Christian forum (as opposed to his usual inter-forums) debating issues such as women's ordination, the Law vs the Gospel, or questioning whether the Sabbath commandment still applies if evolution were true.
I think (going off past statements) Dawkins would find self-professed atheists and agnostics spending so much time on the nitty-gritty of theological and ecclesiastic discussions curious, and probably so much 'intellectual masturbation' to borrow one of his favourite sayings.
The next line of "What a fool believes" which may be instructive is, "No wise man has the power to reason away." There is nothing any of us can do to change the mind of the said "fool." I had a friend who was raised atheist and was staunch in her belief there was no God until her father died. "Where did he go?" she inquired. "Suppose there is a hell. Do you think he went there?" "Do you believe there is a God?" "Why?" Of course there was nothng in our conversations to convince her. I could not use any biblical reference because she rejected the Bible as fairy tales. My own experience was too subjective for her to accept. I could never get off home plate in our discussions. I have had better sucesss in discussing spiritual things with Bhuddists. The reality of Hebrews 11.6 became clearer to me "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." If one does not at some level believe God exists, and refuses to accept the Bible as some type of starting place, where and how does one go about teaching them about God? I am talking past "living the life" and all the other good things we can do. At some point when it is time to teach and there is no belief in what God has given how do we teach my atheist friend. Pray for her, I do not know where she is but Ms. Molina is in need of salvation and answers to her many questions.
Both the original post and all the discussion so far has taken monotheism as an implicit and unexamined frame.
Stephen, are you an atheist with respect to Zeus? Or only agnostic? I assume that you are not a believer in Zeus, either overtly or covertly.
When you fully understand that this case – your belief in Zeus – is exactly logically parallel to the case of the atheists of the Christian God, I think you will have the answer to the conundrum you pose.
From what I understand, Atheism is the belief that God does not exist.
David,
I believe that 22oct has addressed your point; at least from my perspective. Those who believed that Zeus was God did not believe there was no God.
Those who believe that a transcendent Creator God exists are not those under discussion. Those who are polytheists aren’t included either.
David G. In the pantheon of Greek myth there were many gods, according to Paul, even gods without names, the unknown. Since the 17th century how many lives have undergone a transformation because of a belief Zeus was "god"? i read the other day that the Bible is still the annual best seller. Why? The Bible speaks of a Creator, a living God, a God of love. The Bible states the God it speaks of is the I AM, the Eternal, the ALMIGHTY. That although man's beliefs, are, agnostic, or atheistic, GOD IS. He is timeless, man is mortal. Man expects that God should react the human way to all of man's perceived concepts, but God's modus operandi as the pure intellect is above and beyond man's Earthly knowledge and cocept. Either you accept Him as perfection in Himself or He is not the ALMIGHTY. That which we see with the mind's eye speaks to us of exquisite complexity, of an all mighty genius. The breathtaking majestic bombastic heavens, the unbelieveable beauty of the Earth, the beautiful creatures of which man is the ultimate, with the beauty of the body, but most of all, the brilliant computer in its brain that no other type of living creature on this Earth has, the brain that has the intellect to recognize all it is able to comtemplate, must be the works of a master brain, able to account for the diversity and magnificient complexity we behold, with an exception, the Lucifarian complex, its inability to accept being of lower stature in the realm, and the devastating deadly inability to overcome that fact. i believe the Bible was written by men who received their knowledge not by first person experience, but by inspiration of God, and of folklore, and of their own desired concepts. Therefore it is not infallible, but a compilation of fact, allegory, metaphor, & falsehood. If one study's it with an open mind, its magic speaks to the human heart of the living God, and there is a dramatic transformational change in the soul, and God the Holy Spirit enters in to dwell & guide the person to a living relationship with the ALMIGHTY.
Both respondents have missed the point I was trying to make. I take some responsibility for that, having used such an easily-misunderstood example.
Let's take Krishna instead: a live god in a live religion. There are probably a billion people in the world who right now believe in the existence of Krishna, and indeed would say many of the things Earl says about his God about Krishna.
What I'm arguing for, in case I was unclear in trying to be concise, is modesty in the claims that are made. Perhaps, in talking of those who have lived in America for many generations, the discussion can be phrased only in terms of belief and unbelief in the Christian God. But the claims seemed to be being made about all humanity, and in that case the claims are untenable.
In terms of discussing theism and atheism and agnosticism, it is sheer prejudice to pretend that the only form of theism is that of the Christian God and that atheism and agnosticism are both defined in terms of that.
What I was attempting to demonstrate was that every poster here is at the very least agnostic, and most likely atheist, in relation to *many* gods.
Once that is understood, the possibility of agnosticism and atheism in relation to the Christian God is not such a leap of the empathic imagination…
(I'm not an atheist and am not arguing *for* atheism, by the way. I'm arguing for good thinking…)
(to be fair, Stephen did say in his comment that he is excluding polytheists – I wish he'd been as careful with qualifications in the initial post)
It appears that Elaine treasures her non response w/regard to her beliefs. Perhaps she receives a degree
of satisfaction that she keeps some guessing. Doubt she long suffers lesser IQ's. Its her right.
Why are any "Adventists" quoting the doobies? And Huh? What was this blog about?
If you read the blog, particularly the last paragraph, and the commentary above/(below), you will be able to figure it out. (I’m not immune to the culture in which I live. Should I apologize, JaNe?)