Cat’s Paws
by Harry Banks, June 1, 2015: My sailing club is doing shoreline reclamation this spring and I haven’t been able to get my sailboat in the water yet, but I’ve been thinking about cat’s paws anyway.
Cat’s Paws? Yeah, that’s when the surface of the water is smooth, but there is a ruffle of waves coming your direction across the water, which sometimes looks almost like a giant cat silently padding across the water. It’s the wind. You can see the water tell you where the wind is coming from and where it is going. And when you know how to read a cat’s paw you can set your sail to head to your destination.
Tell Tails
Sailors also have little threads or ribbons on the rigging of the boat called tell tails. They also give evidence of the direction and the strength of the wind.
Cat’s Paws of the Spirit
Years ago I had an opportunity to attend a Church Growth Seminar at Ben Lippen campus near Asheville, North Carolina. Ben Lippen is a Scottish phrase which means Mountain of Trust. The campus was on a mountain overlooking Asheville in the distance. The president, Robert McQuilkin, had invited Donald McGavran, founding Dean and Professor of Mission, Church Growth and South Asian Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary, to present a brief one-week Church Growth Seminar.
He was asking, “1. What are the causes of church growth? 2. What are the barriers to church growth? 3. What are the factors that can make the Christian faith a movement among populations? 4. What principles of church growth are reproducible?” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_McGavran)
At the beginning of the seminar he talked about learning to see where the Spirit is moving in a community, a region, or a country. For me that meant watching for spiritual cat’s paws. Where is the Holy Spirit moving? What people, what agencies is the Spirit using or able to use?
While parts of church growth theory may be dated now and not as helpful as some had hoped, I for one feel that the observation about watching for where and how the Spirit is moving in one’s area is a most valid lens for what he called “church growth eyes.”
Which got me to thinking about some of the signs of Spirit moving in my area, and maybe it will get more of us watching for those Cat’s Paws of the Spirit.
Observing the Surroundings
My students who are military veterans sit in the back of my classroom, back to the wall and corner, so they can observe the whole room. They have been taught to always be aware of their surroundings.
Sometimes in the “safety” of a local congregation, stories of faith seem inward focused. One of my wag friends calls this the “navel inspection station” (as in gazing at one’s own belly button). In my local congregation, my attracting rowdy kids to help with the sound and video booth attracted some disapproval from a less tolerant board and pastor. The year that followed ended with my receiving a letter calling me to a church business meeting to be disciplined for “strife making,” in spite of my willingly stepping down and telling the upset kids not to tear the system apart but to act like Christians and do their job.
As the business meeting unfolded it was evident the leadership of the church wanted to use church discipline as a form of personal retaliation. Parents of the youngsters who objected were also disciplined en masse. As Larry Downing (the AT columnist, not the Larry mentioned below) has so eloquently articulated, our church is ultimately congregational. At which point I decided that although I may see myself as an Adventist, I could not fellowship in good conscience with a congregation whose pastor and leaders resorted to misrepresentation and vindictiveness as a demonstration of their commitment to “the truth.”
(Some will offer a different view of these events. Some may think I’m being harsh, but let me assure you, I’m leaving out a lot of details. The only reason I offer this note is to explain how I began to start observing what was going on around me in my community. And, please don’t use this as an excuse to whine and carp about local congregations that struggle with actualizing grace and redemption.)
I have no idea what God has in mind for this congregation, I leave that in His hands. I just knew that I needed to take responsibility for my own journey and step away for a while. At least that way I could be assured I would not be “strife making.” In the transcript you can find a quote where the head elder said they had to look “really hard” to find strife making in the manual as a valid reason for church discipline but they “finally found it.” I thought that to be a most telling admission on his part.
But as they say in the movie Airplane, “That’s not important now.”
Starting to Look Toward the Community
The “disciplined” families began meeting in one of the meeting rooms at the city sports arena on Sabbath mornings. They needed a place to hunker down, lick their wounds and have a safety zone to heal. The conference president was notified, so that he would not hear about it through the grapevine but also to offer a direct line of communication if he chose to ask questions.
It Gets Interesting
Here is where it starts to get interesting. The little group called itself “Community Fellowship.” They met each Sabbath for a couple of months and then …
One day one of my adjunct instructors, Cathy, plopped herself in the guest chair in my office and said, “Have you heard what Larry is doing?”
In my mind I wondered, Who is Larry? And what was he doing?
Not only was Cathy teaching for me; she was working part time in my old Information Technology (IT) department for our local government. Here in Alaska we call it a borough, although in the lower 48 they are generally called counties. Our borough/county is nearly the size of West Virginia.
Back to Cathy. Not only was Cathy teaching for me, working in my old shop; she was renewing her personal walk of faith. I had worked at the borough for 17 years. From time to time two or three of my instructors were from the borough. I kept in touch and that IT department was like family to me. Cathy was part of that family. Larry was new, but he was still part of that family.
Larry, come to find out, was also working at the borough IT department. He was a former atheist, had found faith on his own, was a diligent Bible student, and was starting a Saturday morning Bible study group meeting at the local phone company’s education center. The group was called In His Steps Community Fellowship.
It all seemed too be orchestrated by an agency far above any organization we were part of. The Community Fellowship decided to meet with the In His Steps Community Fellowship.
Where Is the Spirit Moving? Where Is He Leading?
So between Donald and his “Where is the Spirit working?” and Larry and In His Steps … Could it have been His will to have us step away from the local congregation? Did He need to work in a more individual way with the leadership of the congregation and with us? Were we being placed here?
Larry had envisioned an interdenominational place for finding and building personal faith as a bridge to a more formal affiliation with congregations that the individuals choose. What he got was a bunch of Seventh-day Adventists. He said he was meeting on Saturday so he wouldn’t compete with regular hours of worship, only to find a whole group of people for whom this was their hour of worship. It was even at 11 o’clock.
So like I was saying … between Donald and Larry … Lately I’ve been watching much more carefully for the Spirit’s moving.
So This Is Really What I Wanted to Share
I don’t know if you needed all that background but I thought it might help. So here in what appears to be a Divinely coordinated encounter, I have begun to see more and more evidence of the Spirit moving …
One day I passed the phone company later than usual on Sabbath and saw Larry’s car in the parking lot. I went in and found a group of eight or nine church planters discussing their various projects.
Two were working in prison ministries. They talked about the raw redemptive power of Christ in the animal pit we call prison, where there is absolutely no room for phoniness or halfway trust in God’s power.
Some were working with messianic ministries. They were observing Jewish feast days and practices. They participated in the Passover Seder service. But what got my attention was how they emphasized the essential need to love, totally love, their friends to Christ. They were planning on a minimum of eight years before they expected the first signs of their friends fully embracing Christ in their lives. They emphasized how when their beloved friends accept Christ it will bring separation from their heritage, disavowal from their families. They stressed how they must stand by their friends as they learn to fully trust Christ, and again how essential that love must be.
(By the way, did you ever notice that 1 Corinthians 13, the “love chapter,” is not included in our statement of 28 fundamental beliefs?)
Subsequently, Larry has stepped away from his borough position. He became Chief Information Officer, yet he quit his job to follow what he felt Christ was calling him to do … with no means of visible support.
Then he was hired as pastor for a small Baptist congregation, which he serves on Sundays while he continues to commit to the Sabbath community outreach at the phone company.
I’ve also had an opportunity to work with community people who are addressing issues such as domestic violence, sexual assault, child care, food for mothers and infants, alcohol and mental health issues.
No, none of this fits in my little orthodox box. But, is the Spirit moving in ways beyond my small understanding? Most definitely!
Messianic outreach, prison ministry, verse by verse in-depth personal Bible study, domestic violence, God directly converting an atheist with no denominational intervention. Compared to all that, arguments about ordination, headship, and age of the earth have seemed, at least from this context, almost irrelevant.
Until today … Today I was commenting at the group at the phone company on some of the age of the earth discussion. Three of us were talking. Larry said, “I really find that discussion interesting.” He mentioned a book entitled I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist and how evolution is treated as a law not a theory.
Where will this adventure go next? I don’t know. But I feel the challenge of J. B. Phillips’ book Your God is Too Small.
So just for fun: If you were to look for the Spirit moving in your community, where would you look? What are you seeing? Where is the Spirit touching lives in down- to-earth practical ways? Where are Christians committing to love their friends to Christ over years, through thick and thin? Where is the Spirit using the humanity of the church to open to manifestations of God’s superior redemption and grace?
No, I didn’t tell you about all the cat’s paws of the Spirit I am seeing. But, looking at the tell tails around here, it sure looks like the wind is picking up. Hoist that sail! Set that jib! Keep your church growth eyes open … maybe even in San Antonio.
“The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit” (John 3:8, NIV).
Harry,
I praise God for your experience in following the Holy Spirit! Isn’t it amazing the adventures He takes us on when we’re willing to step outside “the Adventist box” and follow Him? (Though it might be better to call it the prison of Adventist orthodoxy.) Oh, the blessings we miss when we’re not following the Holy Spirit!
For a few years I’ve been working on writing a book about the experiences I’ve had with God in my Angel Team ministry and about eight or nine months ago I felt like God was telling me to lay it aside for a time because I needed some more experience before publishing it as an e-book. In the months since, God has taken my ministry group on a whole new set of adventures in sharing God’s love and we’ve seen Him do some amazing things for us and through us. Along the way I began feeling a burden for teaching churches about the working of the Holy Spirit and how people can find the ministry He wants them doing. I really had no idea how to do that but I shared my burden with my conference leadership and within days had an invitation to present a week-long seminar on gift-based ministry at this year’s Camp Meeting, which was last week. More than just teaching a class, I wanted to take people on ministry projects and let them feel the blessings that come when they help others, so God led us to projects that kept us busy four mornings through the week. (You can view the video from the first morning at https://www.facebook.com/#!/GSCofSDA?fref=ts. Click on the video where you see the guy wearing a ponytail and a cap with CIA on it.) You don’t see it in the video, but later in the week we built a railing across the other end of the woman’s deck to prevent her from falling-off where a fall from the four-foot height likely would have killed her.
God did amazing things that week and I saw people catch a vision of ministry. One woman came to the class because we were planning on working one morning at her home and during the week God put a burden on her heart for how He wanted her to begin ministering to others. Her daughter and son-in-law told me on Sabbath that our work at their home and the spirit of love they felt was renewing their faith. It seemed every time I saw them they were sharing with others the blessing they had received.
God did several things during the week to draw attention to both my class and what we were doing to help others. That video was shown in Sabbath School and after that I had an almost continual stream of people asking about how they could get involved. In their questions I realized there is a deep hunger among our members to find the power of the Holy Spirit so they can begin doing real and meaningful things for God that reflect His love to others.
Harry, keep sharing about what you see God doing!
Praise God for His revelations of the Spirit in both Harry’s and your lives and thank you for sharing them and with the rest of us.
I would like to direct everyone’s attention to a study published in 1990 that has the efficacy of the above stated intentions regarding the Holy Spirit’s moving. It is titled: Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. http://www.blackaby.net/ I am surprised that many Adventists know nothing about this work. It is not new.
It is worth every Christians time again and again. My experience shows me that “Christian Maturity” is more quickly achieved when this study is taken seriously. “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13
I say congratulations to anyone who can write a book about anything. Although I have been turned off of many Christian books lately on account that I see too many examples of that being a status within Adventism. That there is an idea that I am not somebody unless I am published or have a Ph.D. or have spoken to people in a foreign country(“an international speaker”). Many things have already been said that do not need to be said anew. I see profits and fundraising amid unnecessary words and new books.
We called them zephyrs, but we were sailing little dinghies on puddles of lakes in skinny air in Colorado far from pro sailors with proper terminology! My second response concerns an Assembly of God uncle who spent about twenty years with a paid mission for Jews in Chicago where he achieved maybe one or two “converts.” So your friends are realistic to a degree, perhaps.
The third part of my reply is in regard to the concept of the “spirit.” There is a vagueness to it apparent in the scripture you quote NIV: John 3:8, with a bit of mystery implied which fits your thesis and survives my skepticism! But, otherwise, as an application of it (Holy Spirit) applied as partner for every nuanced version of belief exposed on this forum, it appears to be a handyman of availability for any and all claims of divine guidance regardless of wild contradictions. Which leads me to doubt its authenticity.
My interpretation of what has happened to you and your friends (Where Is the Spirit Moving? Where Is He Leading?) is the operation of God as Love, the collector of the “found,” which is what I think Jesus came to reveal, over against God as lawgiver, judge, condemner. His message was, simplify, simplify, simplify (borrowed inadvertently, maybe, by Mr. Thoreau) “God” in that light isn’t bounded by shorelines of denominations, religions, or creeds. The love reaction and outreach of the human heart is a response to the God of Love, without guile.
There is no profit motive in ministry to prisoners or in being a “Christian(s) committing to love their friends to Christ over years, through thick and thin.” One sharing the love in their heart with another human participates in the only reality of God we have, Love. That transmission is the ultimate human experience and is the encounter of God. It satisfies the human soul like nothing else. Much too simple for ecclesiastical bean counters and theological kangaroo courts, where membership growth, money accounts, right and wrong thinking are the determinants of proper behavior.
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Apparently you like the idea of being “found” but you do not like the idea that being “lost” represents a need to be “found”?
Exactly, Hammy. Everyone does since there are always alternative interpretations. Your quote has an alternative, more likely meaning, since Christ was referring to Israel and the position that had been “lost” due to the Roman hegemony, which probably was the core intention of most of his “ministry.”
As you well know, scholarly retreats to koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, probably Christ’s language of use, translated or transliterated to Greek without any Aramaic renditions ever made, or at least remaining, offer little perfect clarification, and usually no clear motivation.
And there are plenty of analytical volumes available demonstrating that Christ was one of many seers and healers (he survived way longer than most) entertaining the masses who pined for a messiah to bring deliverance from the Romans. It was only after he was gone that back trackers saw the universal message, the double speak that he might have intended.
If Christ came to “save that which was lost,” as a reference to mankind, it’s a dirty trick to the billions of those humans of dispersed atoms preceding him unless “God” saved through Jesus everyone back to the beginning of time. In which case, “lost” is moot anyway, mankind has always been “found” by God.
I don’t know what was in Christ’s mind. Neither do you. I know what a few of the versions faith and belief assigns it and him. I like my version. You have yours. Faith, belief, opinions rule.
PS The term in your quote (“The Son of Man,” used four times by Christ) has dubious meanings on two counts. First, it is ambiguous in the Greek, ὁ υἱὸς τοὺ ἀνθρώπου, literally the man’s son, could mean “me,” or not. Second, could be a later insertion, so as indicated above, not much help, particularly since it may have been used by Christ in Aramaic. Maybe not. Ambiguity rules. What did he mean, even if he said it?
Larry,
What about the Holy Spirit seems vague to you? Maybe you just need to refresh on what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit. So I would like to suggest that you take your Bible concordance and start reading texts with references to the “spirit of God” and similar. When I did that I was amazed by what I found. For example, outside of the four gospels, the Holy Spirit is the most often mentioned reference to God. He is the first “sighting” of God in the Bible (at creation) and the last in Revelation. The entire ministry of Jesus was guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded His followers to work in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Read what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and then tell me what about Him remains vague.
I spent seventeen years in the Adventist school system, two in a Methodist seminary, William, my question isn’t going to be answered by a concordance search of the scriptures. “Been there done that” many long years ago. My skepticism has to do with the application continuously displayed on this forum and elsewhere as a buttress to private opinions as the last resort of authentication. I had a minister friend years ago who referred to it in this context as the Holy Spurt, because, like a leaky garden hose it spewed hither and yon. I can’t tell by watching and interpreting “it” by the effects on the myriad of claimants I have ever been exposed to if there is anything behind the claim. Each is after the fact and the facts, in many cases, are in opposition, and the conclusions equally so. The “Holy Spirit” seems to lack a semblance of unity, just a convenience, a profitable value for a person in need of it.
I’m not saying there isn’t one, William. In my reply to Harry Banks above there is my statement about love which I could call Holy Spirit, I guess. But that may be a stretch for me and for you
Larry,
I also attended church schools, though not for as many years as you. My understanding of the Holy Spirit has grown greatly in recent years and reaches far beyond anything I was ever taught in school or at church. The Bible promises that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. So, if we want to know the truth about God, doesn’t it make sense to seriously study about the Holy Spirit? I can tell you from my experience that God is very happy to reveal Himself to us when we seek Him. One of the challenges I faced was overcoming those old views about the Holy Spirit as some sort of nebulous and ill-defined divine force. But when I began studying what the Bible said about the Holy Spirit and when I asked Him to reveal Himself to me, what I discovered was far different than the vague and ill-defined divine force I had once imagined. Instead, I found a very personal and incredibly powerful and amazingly loving God. So I invite you to study and let God reveal Himself to you as He did for me. You’ll be amazed by how much He shows you and how much clarity He gives you.
Thanks, William, for your kind efforts in my behalf. As I tippy toe through the tulips of this forum I never cease to be amazed at the presuppositions about me on display. Please, this is not attended as reproach of you in any way shape or form. I respect you and your faith. But might it never have occurred to you and others that I have visited the intellectual faith spot you now occupy and to which you are inviting me to visit? And that I have moved on to a new one that may offer something of value? That it is patronizing to assume I have somehow backslid and therefor need to backtrack. That I just need to wake up, be alerted so I will have correct thinking? That I need to read the proper stuff to have the proper attitude so I can share your enthusiasm about the “Holy Spirit?”
Harry Banks exercises God-talk and Spirit-talk to describe his transition to new understandings, and the cost/benefit of such. His thinking isn’t incorrect, can’t be modified by rereading passages. Neither is mine incorrect nor correctable by the same means. I’m not comfortable using his language, or yours. But I respect both and would never ask you (or him) to modify your approach.
No, I’m not suggesting I have arrived anywhere. I have learned much from this forum, and from what you have written, too. It appears to me that you have ventured beyond the main stream and there are certain frequencies we share, I have felt (my opinion anyway)! My continued presence (so far, at least) on this forum results in a head bangers ball of consternation for some (myself, sometimes), but the road to enlightenment is most valuable when shared with those who don’t see things as you do.
15 years of SDA schools was enough for me 8-). I guess my focus on math, music and physical sciences has rendered me unfit to find all of the problems cited by Bugs-Larry.
Too bad Larry abandoned engineering due to feeling a “call” to a higher vocation. There is something very gratifying about building something that actually works, and watching people use it (even if they do not know who built it). Hard to argue with concrete reproducible results. Better than arguing with religion teachers about which of us understood God or the Bible correctly. And there was no shortage of arguments in some of the few religion classes I sat through.
Engineering was still in the slip-stick stage when I wandered off the academy/prison/compound to a much much much much higher calling. Never thought math would jump off maple saplings onto my phone and it would shrink magically together into a pocket sized device. If Daniel and Revelation had revealed that to me I might have stayed the course to Walla town! Hammy, I spent a few years of my post ex facto preacho life in the home remodeling business where I spoon fed my need to build things. (While I was at seminary at Andrews, I worked in the consturction department part time to the amazement of the other non-minister guys there). My present home is finished with a few thousand hours as my contributions to its completion. Looking down every day to my 24 x 24 travertine tile floor I installed is just one of the daily stimulant joys of my accomplishment.
I don’t regret my teenage penthouse detour sparked by passionate the-end-is-near-preachers on malleable teen minds with adaptive tendencies. Couple that ten year experience with remodeling skills to follow (along with a few other successful ventures) and you have me, deconstruction and reconstruction and “here I am, I can do no other” (thanks Martin).
In construction, I never destroyed a kitchen without making it eventually a beautiful new creation. A metaphor for how I see myself participating here.
I have a penchant for turning rocks over to see what is underneath (a landscape subset of a construction metaphor, perhaps). Exposed to sunlight the worms squirm. They wriggle along looking for cover. Squashing them isn’t my intent. I eventually roll the rocks back over and let them have their hideout. It might be that I am a worm under a larger rock doing my thing to smaller rocks and mine will be disturbed at some point by a bigger rock flipper!
So I am mindful there is no pride allowed, no final knowledge achievable, that there is no “correct” understanding of God or the Bible, or even of “science.” That wonderment, asking questions, finding problems, seeking answers, is the common intellectual stuff of life that binds us as humans. We are always becoming, never arriving. So, finding “problems,” Jim, is a worthy enterprise, since that is the ceaseless, pesky, background noise of unfinished work. And a prod of caution and challenge to those who proclaim “truth.”
My dad went the opposite direction – from building boats and houses to being a pastor. One of his first campus jobs at Emmanuel Missionary College was framing the stairwells to the balcony of the Johnson Auditorium (now the antiquated Gymnasium). They offered him a full-time job in construction but he declined. He had already been there and done that.
Sort of like Jesus of Nazareth, the Carpenter’s Son?
Currently sheltering under my roof is a former pastor and still very good friend of mine, who supports himself by remodeling houses and is very good at it.
You are not the only one whose journey has taken you in the opposite direction 8-).
When I am too old to ask questions, then I will indeed be TOO OLD!
William,
Your testimony to the Holy Spirit is very inspiring. I read throughout the Gospels many references to the Holy Spirit made by Jesus. I would like to ask you this: What is the main purpose of this “empowering of the Holy Spirit”?
So we can do the same works Jesus did, and which He commanded His followers to do, to demonstrate the power and love of God so that those who do not know God will be drawn to believe in Him. Belief is far more than merely giving mental assent to the correctness of a spiritual concept or point of fact, it is willingness to surrender ourselves to the far greater power of God and allow Him to do both in us and through us what we are incapable of doing in our own power. So the most essential question is: Will you allow God to fulfil His promise to work in you and do great things through you?
“Will you allow God to fulfil His promise to work in you and do great things through you?”
Who is this “God” you refer to?
William, I don’t know how the transmission in my car works. Nor do I know how “God” works. The how isn’t important. That is why I punted above when you asked me to do the concordance review. In my view the God that Jesus revealed as love, operates permanently, continuously, visibly, joyfully, responsively, in my life. But I am not willing to say that is the “Holy Spirit” or any tag like that. In my thinking labels, descriptions, verbs, adverbs, the how of “God” isn’t possible without our creation of him in our image. So, I prefer the experience. Even metaphor, allegory, myth fails here.
I live joyfully experiencing Love, but not having a clue to the how or why of God.
Even though you do not know how works the transmission in your car, you do believe that your car has a transmission. Though you could just as well call it a “gear-box” or even a “trannie”. But by whatever name you call it you nevertheless acknowledge its existence. Your “ride” is enabled by your “trannie” (among other things).
Why can you not acknowledge that your Love is enabled by some intentional Deity even if you don’t understand the mechanics and different people call it by different names (and even multiple names – like your trannie might also incorporate a differential, or you may have a differential separated by a drive shaft, or for some vehicles no differential at all)?
I agree with you that humans each create God in our own image. But to the extent that we ourselves were created in the Image of God that is arguably a Good Thing. Though to the extent that Evil intrudes, our own Image of God IS a Bad Thing.
I sympathize. There are things I don’t understand and there are things I used to know nothing about. Then there are things I’ve been learning about, the Holy Spirit being one of them. The Holy Spirit empowered the entire ministry of Jesus. His top priority after securing our slavation was instructing all of his followers to connect with the Holy Spirit, who would come with greater power after He returned to Heaven. The Bible is filled with examples of the great things people did when they were empowered by the Holy Spirit and God’s promise is that He will empower us if we allow Him to do it. So, why would you want to remain focused on the God who was here and went away when you could enjoy the current presence of the God who has promised to live inside you? Most likely it is because of some fear of getting close to God. Well, I used to be afraid for that reason, but then I discovered God loved me too much to let that remain a barrier between us and that He had amazing ways to break-down that wall of separation I was trying to maintain.
Please, at least give the Holy Spirit a try. If you don’t find Him better than what you have now then you can always go back to your present condition.
Plus, you don’t have to understand HOW the Holy Spirit works, just that He does and what He does is life-changing.
Larry,
You mentioned the One How is working through the Holy Spirit, Jesus. You are closer to Him than others think.
Correction: The One Who is working through the Holy Spirit, Jesus.
“BUGS LARRY”, this is for you and All. Please bear with me a while here. There is a dimension to man that seemingly few discover. i believe, you, Larry, have found a part but not all. John the beloved apostle in John 3:3,5-8, Jesus answered and said unto him “verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot “see” the Kingdom of GOD”. “VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO THEE, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the SPIRIT is spirit”. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”.
Note here that Christ knew He had to repeat, twice, to Nicodemus, the lesson he had to learn, “AND WHICH WE EACH MUST LEARN. Man is placed in a physical vessel of “corrupt flesh”, that will die, to learn the Spiritual nature of GOD. Man has approx. 80 years to learn that God is a Spirit and operates in a Spiritual realm. We must be born spiritually to have an eternal presence with the ALMIGHTY. The “eternal spirit”, of man, is what makes him different from all other species of life on Earth. To be one with God, universally, is to acquire the”perfect LOVEING NATURE of God, our Creator”. “GOD IS LOVE”.
When we are born again, of the Spirit, we shall have no Earthly hassles, and impediments. We intellectually have forsaken the coils and toils that our Earthly bondage have enslaved us. We respect every man and let them choose for themselves what to believe, and to be free of evil in all its forms, should they find our LORD JESUS CHRIST in this Earthly sojourn, or accept the consequences of their actions. What are the consequences???????????????????????
Spiritually, man acceptS the role of eternal LOVE in the LORD JESUS, and is “SPIRITUALLY BORN” in newness of eternal life. When we forsake this corrupt flesh, the Lord God accepts our “spirit”, and with David, our soul will be restored to us, in God’s timing. More later.
Is the “physical vessel” of man “corrupt flesh”?
Is the “spirit of man” “eternal”?
“our soul will be restored to us”: what is a “soul”?
Daniel: Yes, the flesh is a temporary vessel for mankinds habitation. It is weak, subject to disease and birth defects. Amazing it is able to function as long as it does. It’s life force is limited and starts to die upon birth. It is impossible for the flesh to live in the Cosmos. God will provide us a spiritual body alike HIS own.
The “spirit” of man is “eternal”, conditional. All life is in the GODHEAD. Conditional as to man accepting God’s Grace, or opting out.
Our “soul” is our spirit, our brain power. The totality of our “on board computer”, whose “hard drive” is stored in GOD’S INFINITY.
God does have a Delete function. That is called the “second death” in some Bible passages, and in others translated as “perish”, the word Jesus used in contrast to “sleep” from which God can “awaken” us.
Jim,
The Believer in Jesus Christ, who has been born-again, does not die spiritually, this is impossible. I will not quote all the NT passages on this subject as there are too many to cite. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will never die. Believers sleep in Jesus; and to say that they die is saying He is dead. When He appears, He will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Earl,
The “corrupt flesh” statement you made was a little vague. Yes, the flesh does perish and cannot have any part in God’s Kingdom and Spiritual domain. But the flesh is not corrupt in that it is sinful. God made the physical body and it was very good.
The “soul” is the mind of man; the intellectual, thought processing, etc. The spirit of man gives life to the mind, (soul) it cannot function without the spirit. The soul that sins will die. The “soul” is the sinful part of man; and is responsible for everything we do, good of evil.
The Cosmos, as you put it, is not the Spiritual domain of God. It is the physical creation and will one day be “rolled up like a cloak”; or as it says in another place: “10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.” 2 Pet. 3:10-13.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Bill and Daniel and Earl and Jim and just about everyone else, I thought I might be getting a handle on this Holy Spirit guidance thing and now am all confused again. Isn’t it/he/she guiding you all? But you don’t seem to agree. Is there a multiple personality disorder somewhere in the mix? Are you properly tuned in or not? Or am I just missing the real definition of agreement. Remember that “depends on what the definition of is is?” Not going to be persuasive here, either. And y’all seem to be so certain each of your versions about spirit, Holy Spirit, and souls and stuff. How can that be?
I think I am going to meander over the Fields of Ambrosia (you’ll have to dig up a Stacey Keach, 1970 movie, The Traveling Executioner to understand the soothing respite offered to condemned souls like me),where I will blanket my brain with endless vistas of flowers and heavenly scents as peaceful anesthesia to gain enough strength to venture back into your confusing faith world! See ya soon!
Like the wind, the Spirit moves different things in different directions. Not because the Spirit is confused, but because different people are attached to different things in different ways.
And some are just flapping in the breeze 8-).
Flapping in the breeze :–) is preferable to luffing in the becalm :–( Hammy! Trimming sails fixes one, but not the other.
Back from my brief Field of Ambrosia respite where sailing metaphors don’t function, but here now where they do, I have trimmed my lateen sail and realize, I too, have been wafted, all along, by the Holy Spirt, to the point of a grand reason for my present belief. My mistake has been my assumption the HS had a particular message, unified, to induce group-think, a specific message, ex-cathedra from God (I know, there is no Cathedral in heaven for God to sit authoritatively in, just a Sanctuary, but, I know of no ex-Sanctuarius usage anywhere else), but, not so.
Now I understand both by interpretation (theory) and practice viewed extensively on this forum, we are each in our sailing dinghies, canvas unfurled, captions of our faith, blown by the gentle breezes of the Holy Spirit to different destinations. That’s where the bickering comes in. Like the blind men and the elephant.
So the Holy Spirit gets a free pass since He/She/ It (headship issue in San Antonio on my mind) is functioning perfectly.
To summarize, The Holy Spirit has led me to believe the Bible is the record of man’s search for God, Genesis is an allegory as is Noah and the flood and Jonah and the whale, Christ’ mother night not have been a virgin, etc. But we are all together, us blind men, and women, too Elaine, just touching the elephant in different locations. Or our dinghies are just grounded at divergent spots. But we are all still one, led by the Holy Spirit. So we can argue about the view, but not how we got here. To do so would cast undeserved aspersions on the Holy Spirit.
The same breeze can propel different boats in different directions because they have set their sails and their rudders differently. You can even tack against the wind if you are so inclined.
And too many expend much or most of their lives tacking against the Holy Spirit.
Jim,
Well said! To which I add that you always move much faster and more easily when you’re going with the wind instead of against it. The same is very true with the Holy Spirit and it has amazed me how many spiritual issues find resolution when we are going with God instead of against Him.
Bugs, I think it is just as important to know what the Holy Spirit will not do, as it is to know what He will do.
The Holy Spirit motivates. That is His primary role. Sinful man needs powerful motivation to change his ways. So the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind with truth in such a way that it is called, “living truth”.
The will of man is empowered by truth under the influence of the Holy Spirit. God can not change anyone in the context of his moral being except by moral influence. There is no “hocus pocus” twilight zone mystery of how the Holy Spirit works.
To be “born again” means to have a new perception of God and truth that was unknown before. And the Holy Spirit must work through some “means of grace” to communicate truth and its meaning. For a Protestant, the final authoritive means of grace is the bible.
This is why we continually read and seek truth through God’s word. And pray the Holy Spirit will reveal truth in a dynamic way so that we are motivated to “change our mind” (repent) and choose to do God’s will instead of our own sinful will. God changes our mind through influence, we are the ones who actually “change our mind.”
This is objective truth about the Holy Spirit without all the hocus-pocus mysticism and spiritualism many people embrace about what and how the Holy Spirit changes people for a fitness to be in God’s kingdom. Since it is by moral influence, we can not know exactly all the ways He works in our life. Our parents, school, society, our personal experience, nature and a thousand other ways of education is how He works. Even the church. But it is by way of objective truth that we are able to discern what is right and wrong, and the Spirit motivates and causes the change. So, we could call Him the “Holy Motive” and still have a correct view of His work.
The Holy Spirit does not just motivate, the Spirit also empowers.
That’s right, He motivates.
Everyone has the ability to obey the law if they have the right motivation. The whole nine yards is about motivation. Satan destroyed the motivation of Adam and Eve by convincing them that God is a liar. No one will obey a god they think is a liar.
But, “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (of Satan’s delusions).” And now motivation is restored by way of the gospel and the truth of all the bible teaches.
Much of the theology in modern Adventism is some kind of hocus-pocus mystical view of the work of the Holy Spirit and human accountability is diminished on some level by a faulty view of what the Holy Spirit will do, and what He will not do.
In this context, EGW has well said,
“While these youth were working out their own salvation, God was working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Here are revealed the conditions of success. To make God’s grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us (The Youth’s Instructor, August 20, 1903). 4BC 1167.6″
” Our work in all its lines is to demonstrate the influence of the cross. The work of God in the plan of salvation is not to be done in any disjointed way. It is not to operate at random. The plan that provided the influence of the cross provided also the methods of its diffusion. This method is simple in its principles and comprehensive in its plain distinct lines. Part is connected with part in perfect order and relation. KC 99.3″
God certainly sustains our physical being but by no other method can he “convert” the sinful mind of man except by the moral influence of the cross. Any mis-representation of the cross and how it functions in all its aspects of redemption will undermine the moral influence the cross will have on the mind of not only the sinner, but those who have never sinned to preserve them from rebellion.
The Holy Spirit working through the word of God reveals the meaning and thus motivates and empowers the mind and will to be able to do the will of God as God intended in the beginning.
“Everyone has the ability to obey the law if they have the right motivation.”
I am truly baffled how this could come from a vociferous proponent of Original Sin.
One of the major consequences of the Fall is that human LOST the “ability to obey the law”. It isn’t just a matter of motivation or of will power. It is a matter of LOST ABILITY.
Jesus Christ came to Live in our place just as surely as He came to Die in our place.
Apart from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit we have NO ability to obey the law.
Pardon my risky intrusion, Bill Sorensen! But I have to get a couple of sentences edge wise in to Hamstra!
My general challenge remains, Jim, and now for you, who is it, do you know, or you suspect, that is a law keeper, or can ever be?
And where did Jesus specifically say that he “. . . came to Live in our place just as surely as He came to Die in our place.”
Bugs-Larry,
“But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.” (Matt 3:14-15)
John was absolutely correct. Jesus had no need to repent of His own sins because He was sinless. So on whose behalf did Jesus need to repent and be baptized to “fulfill all righteousness”?
Likewise, on whose behalf did Jesus need to be anointed with the Holy Spirit? And on whose behalf did Jesus need to meet and overcome Satan?
“The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”” (John 1:29-30)
“John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.”” (John 1:32)
According to the Bible Jesus was born after John the Baptist. So how could John truly say “He existed before me”? Because Yahweh existed before Jesus, who became the Christ after His baptism. And Jesus claimed to be Yahweh Incarnate – Son of God and Son of Man.
If Jesus did not first Live in our place, then He could not Die in our place. From His baptism onward, His Life was every bit as substitutionary as was His Death. It was after His baptism that He became “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world”.
“When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” (John 8:28-29)
“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.” (John 17:5)
There is much more in the Bible regarding the questions you asked, were you willing to accept it.
So very sorry, Jim, but your key texts and their extrapolations don’t answer my questions. The first was rhetorical, a trick question.
The second not. Jesus never said it (“. . . came to Live in our place just as surely as He came to Die in our place.”)
That’s my point. It may be because he didn’t know it.
The concept of him dying for the sins of the world was a patchwork role argued and assigned by others during the thousand years following his death that transitioned into the standard Christian view today. But it isn’t based on any claim he made. People as sinners seemed of little interest to him. There is no evidence he was aware of his role as a participant in a Grand Scheme. His “virgin birth,” his “life without sin” was not remarkable, was not known nor discussed by him or his followers as far as the record shows. His followers, disciples, were demoralized by his death, had no clue of a resurrection, and they had no game plan for what followed because he never coached them on one.
Jim, what motivates me to respond in this manner is the vertigo, the dreamland, head spinning complexity of Adventist and Christian theology (copious quantities on display on this forum). And then there is the convenient creation of a disease with unfortunate sinners suffering, and the Christian blood cure available through correct thinking marketed by the church, an updated relic of ancient pagan religions.
The lingo of common belief is a nightmare maze in my eyes. I have no argument with you and all others who find it a defining value for your belief system. You are welcome to it. And I know that in sailing terms, from your view, I am hauling dangerously close to the wind. But the Good shepherd (there’s a good story about him walking on water and telling a gale to shut up) doesn’t lose sailors either, so I’m happy, gonna jibe (gybe), unfurl the genoa and run with Holy Spirit wind. Oh, and land at the Fields of Ambrosia for some R & R. The God of Love is peaceful, restful, affirmative, simple, has never lost anyone, doesn’t condemn humans for being us (human), is magnetic, engenders golden rule and kindred responses, is experienced and not just a brain storm.
You say, “There is much more in the Bible regarding the questions you asked, were you willing to accept it.” There is nothing to accept (if there was I would). You are the apparent one avoiding the facts :————-(.!
“His “virgin birth,” his “life without sin” was not remarkable, was not known nor discussed by him or his followers as far as the record shows.”
Matthew was a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 1:25 attests to the virgin birth of Jesus. Now you might choose not to believe in the virgin birth. But your assertion that none of His followers believed in the virgin birth is simply wrong.
Likewise for your assertion that Jesus never claimed to live a sinless life. “I always do what is pleasing to Him (God the Father in the immediate context) is clearly a claim by Jesus that He lived a sinless life. Again you may choose not to believe this, but the Gospel of John, clearly states this claim of Jesus.
John also states that “all things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” Which makes Jesus sound a bit like the “super guy” you do not believe in.
“The concept of him dying for the sins of the world was a patchwork role argued and assigned by others during the thousand years following his death that transitioned into the standard Christian view today. But it isn’t based on any claim he made.”
Jesus DID claim that He had come to die for the sins of humans. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.” (John 3:14-15) “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.” (John 10:17-18)
Clearly Jesus is referring to His own crucifixion and to His own resurrection in these passages.
Now I agree with you that His followers did not fully understand what Jesus was telling them. But your claim that Jesus did not say these things is simply false according to the Gospel of John.
Of course you can claim that the Gospels of Matthew and John are fables, that Jesus never existed, that this is all a product of human imagination, that those Gospel writers who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the things Jesus said and did, were perpetrators of the Biggest Lie of all time. You can choose to ignore everything the Bible says about God, Jesus or humans. That is your choice.
For my part I choose to believe that Matthew and John were telling the truth as honestly as they could. They were not liars and they were not delusional. They were testifying to what they had seen with their own eyes and heard with their own ears.
My statement Jim Hamsstra, was that his “virgin” birth seemed to play no role in the conversations of his disciples. They hadn’t read the unwritten Matthew 1, (Matthew was written probably between 80 to 110 CE, John about the same time). Their attitude toward Jesus, their evaluation of him, their estimation of who he was, or even that of his mother as a special person wasn’t affected. Why? They didn’t know. The same for his “sinlessness.” Had these distinguishing attributes been known, wouldn’t his circle of friends and admirers been in awe, consumed with stories of his special gifts? Wouldn’t they have seen him as a holy man, a prophet, or Elijah, or wouldn’t there have been stories of amazement of his resisting ordinary temptations? He wasn’t Superguy to them.
“Jesus DID claim that He had come to die for the sins of humans. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.” (John 3:14-15) “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.” (John 10:17-18)”
Sorry Jim, he didn’t. There is no claim of propitiation here. You find it in your rear view mirror. If you were a first time reader of these words without the blood economy of salvation in your head, you wouldn’t conclude Christ was trying to placate an angry god or attempting to save billions of lost souls in the world. Christ used many imaginative devices to communicate one of which was hyperbole. And riddles, that is metaphor, allegory and just good stories. Many statements he is credited with are puzzlers. Here is one: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Yes, you can and you have laid a template over these texts to get what you want, but it is a two part process of overlay, pick and choose to achieve an outcome from riddles.
Where have I ever said the Gospels are fables? You don’t aid your argument by plastering untrue, discrediting words in my mouth. Furthermore, Matthew and John weren’t the writers of the books named after them. I don’t doubt the honesty of whomever it was. They were re-tellers of history only with review mirror sources available. All witness were long gone. What you read in the Gospels is not the actual testimony via eyes and ears of the participant’s, but a version of it. Honest historians are captive to the documents and accounts available to them.
There is a huge body of Christ’s work that advances his new commandment that we should love one another as he loves us. None need interpretation. No template overlays necessary.
Bill,
Man, have you got a few things to learn about the Holy Spirit! The Bible doesn’t make full sense and we don’t experience more than a small taste of the power and love of God when we’re focused primarily on scripture and having all of our doctrines right. Jesus NEVER asked His followers to be right. Neither did He ask them to study prophecy so they would be correct and able to argue about it, but so they would see Him as the fulfillment of it and know when His return would be nearing. His entire ministry was an example of the empowerment that comes when we are connected first with the Holy Spirit and it was Jesus who told us the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth, so it is not possible to have more than minimal knowledge of truth without the Holy Spirit being our primary connection with God.
i don’t detect any hocus pokus or great difference in our three declarations, Daniel and Jim. The mind, the soul, the spirit of man, is one being, alike God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Oneness in the GODHEAD. Not that we are God. The soul (spirit) that sleeps when the flesh dies, is quickened at the behest of the Life Giver. Jim stated the delete button is utilized to those who die the second death.
One of the biggest problems with witnessing for Jesus is that we all know only as much as our faith permits. To truly witness for Jesus one must have the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit Jesus speaks. We can never know, by our human intelligence, what each individual needs to hear. He who says you need to give the Holy Spirit a try has missed the mark, because it is not the Holy Spirit who you must “try”, it is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our Saviour and He works through the Holy Spirit, in each individual soul. Through the Gospels Jesus has declared to mankind what He came to do and how He works in our hearts to transform our minds into His likeness. The Holy Scriptures are also a powerful means of communication by which the Spirit of Christ uses to affirm and testify, according to our understanding, the things which will take place in our hearts. There is no secret or hidden agenda behind this work, it has been declared to the whole world, and everyone who accepts this invitation has begun the most blessed journey they could ever imagine. Jesus has told us before it happens, so that when it does we will believe and know that He is working in us. Therefore I testify to everyone: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Saviour of the world, accept Him.
What distinguishes the Holy Spirit and marks the people who are truly working for God is POWER. Masses claim to be followers of Jesus but few are empowered because they are so focused on Jesus (or dissecting prophecy) that they ignore the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus told us to look for and who would live inside us. Jesus even went so far as to declare that those who are not empowered and doing the same works he was doing are not believers. So the question we should be asking those who claim to be followers of Jesus is: Where’s the power in what you are claiming? If they aren’t demonstrating the power of God, they’re just making noise.
I submit that what distinguishes those who are working for God is Love. Love is the foundation of the character of God.
Though I certainly agree that it is the Holy Spirit that empowers us to love those who might not be feeling so lovely themselves at any particular time and place.
“…few are empowered because they are so focused on Jesus (or dissecting prophecy) that they ignore the Holy Spirit.”
The only way to get Holy Spirit power is to focus totally on Jesus. Jesus is the One and Only Way. If anyone is totally focused on Jesus then they will inevitably receive the Holy Spirit’s power.
Please name someone you know (beside yourself as a candidate) who is “totally focused on Jesus” and explain how you know that. My point is, this is a small piece of a huge theological phantasy world that has grown into a monster. This is the unreachable dream with unlimited neurotic guilt as the only possible reward for any of it. If this is the true essence of Adventism (I doubt if it is, emphasis on “if”) why would anyone stay with it or find anything remotely attractive about it. Huh? Thank goodness Jesus never spouted theological gibberish, taught doctrinal nonsense, nor bored anyone with esoteric meanderings (as far as we know).
He said things like this. If your child is hungry, do you as a loving parent give him a rock. No, food. An idiot son took off, squandered all, came home, deserved a butt kicking, got a party instead, teed off his good brother. A naughty woman about to be killed by men walked away when confronted about their sins. A traveler, left to die on the road was cared for by a guy from the wrong side of the river as a show of love. A tax guy, reviled as a crook, found Jesus inviting himself for lunch at his house. And countless more illustrations. One theme. Love.
You have found what want in Scriptures. You may wonder why the young reportedly are racing from the church? Because what you are finding there, in my estimation is ugly, doesn’t matter, so complicated Einstein would have returned to his early job in the patent office in Switzerland had this been his early exposure.
I find what I want in Scripture. There is a beauty, an attractiveness, a magnetism, a simplicity in Christ’s teachings that holds me to being a Christian. I don’t know if it would have holding power on young people. I doubt if it has been tried.
When I bailed out of Adventism some four decades ago I also departed Christianity. I had to do that to be a Christian. Adventism glories in the lostness of humanity, Christianity promotes it, but Jesus revealed that we have never been lost because, to exercise the metaphor, the shepherd never loses his sheep and God is that Chief Shepherd. And that is where I am now. Found. And so is everyone.
No, I don’t care about ultimate punishment/reward. And in the temporal, not one idea in one brain has ever impeded death. Nothing I think, or the thoughts of anyone else, has any control over what will be. Speculation is rampant. It is all brain storm. Now is what we have and that is where the God of Love is operational without ceasing.
Bugs,
I’m not qualified to judge people. I don’t know what everyone is thinking. I do believe it to be entirely plausible and conceivable that there are people who are totally committed to emulating Jesus’ philosophy and His teachings; and who pray and love other people; and that I have encountered such people—knowingly or not.
William, it always returns to opinion, in this case your term POWER. In other words, interpretation. Subjective. I maintain the POWER you see is a desired outcome of the mental subscription to the Holy Spirit you imagine. And I know the Scriptural “authority” for your position, so it isn’t necessary to renew the quotes.
I’m suggesting you can enjoy your experience as an imaginary intervention of God in human life, but that is all it is. It is akin to the placebo effect. But it has no application except self-medication, a eureka, aha moment, I’ve got it after the pursuit and capture of it. “You know it when you see it.” And we are back to the blind men and fondling the elephant.
The idea that God intervenes in a perceptible way in human life has been the choice, special knowledge, of charlatans for eons as manipulation for nefarious purposes (as well as positive spiritual intentions by the well-intended), but never verifiable. One’s private experience doesn’t have universal application. It is good for oneself. That’s why I say the “Holy Spirit” is good for you and for all others who like their version of it. But each of you has a different report of the exact nature of what you feel, the POWER, etc.
So, when you say as you do, “What distinguishes the Holy Spirit and marks the people who are truly working for God . . .” has absolutely no meaning or value since the Holy Spirit is imaginary (no, not for you, of course) and it cannot be actually determined who it would be that are “truly working for God.” Who do you say? There is a purity assumed but unverifiable in your assumption.
I maintain that God as Love has been in the hearts of man from day one not as special intervention by intensely studious seekers but as natural presence of our being. It is celebrated in daily experience by everyone, cannot be manufactured or denied, was labeled as “God” by Jesus, and illustrated by him and his teachings as a living example. That Love provides the meaning to our lives, has magnetic and reflective qualities, and doesn’t impeded the natural process of death. And whatever post-death experience might exist, if any, rests in that power.
If its benign or a phantasy why must you seek to burst the balloon of belief? In as much as it is a confidence and peace building exercise, and harmless. A good habit and moral
concept is involved, love thy neighbor.
I have no power to burst bubbles, Earl. I have a point of view. That is all. Any way, haven’t you noticed that bubbles are temporary and dissolve eventually on their own? No one on this forum needs protection from opposing opinions.
i agree re: active participants, however we believe there may be many thousands of inactive viewers that may be vulnerable to the occasional ridicule of faith, in the saving Grace and everlasting love of GOD.
Earl, any dilettante in this forum can deposit a thought. In the several years I have participated, I have never been critically approached by any but the regular suspects (you included). I would think that if any of my thoughts were deemed so vile, so offensive, and that a reader were so vulnerable that, as a super-offended soul, they would have called me out with blistering words as a rat, or a heretic or an unfunny court jester. While I don’t hesitate to challenge established beliefs and ideas, I don’t ridicule individuals. And I offer simple alternatives.
You seem to have an affinity for Sci-Fi, at least faith expressed in quantum theory terms. Wouldn’t that be offensive to some temporally addicted souls looking over some of your posts? See, I’m back to my jestering activities! You didn’t think I would forget, did you?
Larry,
“His “virgin birth,” his “life without sin” was not remarkable, was not known nor discussed by him or his followers as far as the record shows.”
“life without sin….was not known nor discussed by him or his followers as far as the record shows”. Are you sure about that?
Daniel, I know of no Gospel record of any discussion of his virgin birth or his sinlessness. His contemporaries didn’t seem to be aware of it. Wouldn’t there be a record of something so noteworthy somewhere in their discourse at some time or other? Remember the charge, “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?” No one seemed to have said, “Yes, this virgin birth, sinless guy, Jesus, did!” Wow! Mary, crying at the cross, was seen as an ordinary, grief stricken mother, nothing notable about her being a virgin birther or that her son dying horribly was result of one.
Daniel, am I sure about that? I’m never totally sure about anything. Can you enlighten me? No, don’t do the interpretation of prophecy and other reverse exegetical speculations. Just plain Gospel accounts of dialogue or statements where these special attributes are discussed.
The facts surrounding Jesus are unknowable by you or me (faith, belief ignores that discomfort). My thesis is that he was made into what we know today by a process of reverse engineering cobbled together by a cadre of believers over a large expanse of time. What he was and is now said to be is a misrepresentation of what he was and how, as best we can tell, he saw himself.
But he succeeded magnificantly in a mission of revealing that God was not Jehovah of the Hebrews, or at least theirs was a corruption borrowed from the pagans. Animal sacrifices are an abomination to God. Why, then, wouldn’t Jesus also be an abomination to the God of Love if he was sacrificed like an animal? So, Christ’s death wasn’t a sacrifice, but an execution.
His mission was about living now, in the present, not the life hereafter, nor punishment for past deeds. His relationships with people, the messages he taught, promoted and illustrated love, acceptance, that it is God that is the joy, the emotion, the experience, the dynamic, of human love and relationships. He was in the here and now, exactly what God is and has always been. His resurrections were temporary, no trips to tomorrow land. He entered a Hebrew world of religious laws and seemed to ignore them because God is not angry, offended, worried about details, but is generous, likes people, prefers hanging out with regular people, self-righteous, not so much.
I don’t expect to change your or anyone’s mind. I appreciate the opportunity to develop and express my rationale for the joy and peace I experience in my life.
These claims are rebutted above. Regarding the virgin birth see Matthew 1:25. Regarding the claim that Jesus never discussed these things with His followers, see my various citations from the Gospel of John. And there are many more that I could cite. And Bugs-Larry will simply choose to ignore them and proceed with his bogus denials.
“These claims are rebutted above.” How could I have been so dense to have missed that on first, second and third reading, Jim? Your proof texts, Matt 3:14-15, John 1:29-30, John 1:32, and John 8:28- 29, John 17:5, tell the whole story! Clear as a bell. Somewhere, somehow in these verses, without the words I requested, it is said that Jesus came to die for us. Obviously it must have been clear to him that the Hebrews hadn’t killed enough animals to make God happy, the gentiles, some far-flung such as the Mayans, hadn’t sacrificed enough of their people yet, for whatever purpose, so it boiled down to Jesus to get God, his angry Dad, happy again. And he did a good job of it.
Problem solved! And for the last two thousand years people get/got to die with hope (like your blink of the eye expectation of after death reuniting your family) that those billions of unfortunates In the first untold millennia had to do without. For them, better luck next time.
But there is still a problem that irony doesn’t address. “And Bugs-Larry will simply choose to ignore them and proceed with his bogus denials.” I’m not surprised at your convenient sophistry of dismissal, Jim, nor am I in the least offended, actually stimulated to an LOL moment! First, I am aware you know, at least as well as I, of the pesky permanent presence of the issues I raise, and you are also aware that the end result of your belief is the process of picking and choosing the tenets that support the belief structure you prefer.
And second, you allow for yourself the luxury of ignoring incompatible information and allowing for mandatory bogus denials of your own. All that to maintain a pretension of a superior position to all others, or at the very least, to pad the comfort level of a course of action you chose decades ago. You don’t have to admit it. I know it anyway.
Jim, we have different outlooks, but they both are assembled by the same pick and choose methodology. There isn’t an alternative, just as your key text selections above keenly illustrate.
You are right. You will never find in the Bible what you refuse to look for.
If Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd, and then proceeds to say that He lays down His life for His “sheep”, then who do you think are His “sheep”?
And no I do not believe in the idea of sacrifices to appease an angry God. That is paganism as you rightly explain.
The reasons why Christ died are only partly revealed to us and certainly not well understood and explained. I have a healthy dose of skepticism for those who think they have this mystery all figured-out.
But I am convinced of these two things – His death was both (1) Necessary and (2) Sufficient for us to continue living.
Jim, I can’t find in the Bible what isn’t there. You seem to do just find with that imaginary entrprise. (You might consider teaming up with Daniel). The good, shepherd is a case in point. There is nothing there about propitiation except your interpretation, which is an opinion among opinions, which is fine for your purposes. By their nature allegories and metaphors are vague, have multiple alternatives of meaning. I can only guess why Christ used these devices. Perhaps he didn’t have a systematic message to convey. He could have simply said “God, my Father, sent me here to eventually die so you don’t have to offer animal sacrifices any more.” But he didn’t say anything like that, never did. His death was a total shock to his personal community.
Your last paragraph, points one and two, are your statements of belief. I have no quarrel with your convictions, your faith.
“I know of no Gospel record of any discussion of his virgin birth” (Bugs-Larry Boshell)
“And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.” (Matthew 1:24-25)
Jim, you know as much as I do about the issues of the meaning word “virgin” in the OT Hebrew and its later usage and Greek translation in the book of Matthew as well as the serious time lapse of the account of Matthew. Because of these facts, I had not considered this account to be counter to my proposition. But It satisfies you as it is written and so I will, with an asterisk, allow it to stand as a “discussion of his virgin birth.”
That aside, I have still established the point, without challenge, that his contemporaries weren’t aware of his “special” birth situation, a huge question mark over the validity of the of it.
It matters only if Christ is the atonement for all sin, a way of dealing with God’s wrath. I see his role as the revelator of God as love, counter to the God of wrath, a role in which he didn’t need a “virgin” birth.
I will let Mary define “virgin”.
“Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.”
The phrase translated “virgin” is actually in the Greek “no man do I know” (“know” here referring to sexual relations). Mary had had enough sex ed to understand that she could not get pregnant without coming into intimate contact with a man. The angel responds that the Holy Spirit will impregnate her.
Likewise in Matthew 1 it is affirmed that Joseph “did not know her” until after the birth of Jesus.
Now if you do not believe in miracles or supernatural beings then this whole discussion is nonsense. But both Matthew and Luke affirm in their gospels that Mary conceived Jesus before and apart from any sexual contact with her husband (or any other man).
Larry,
“I know of no Gospel record of any discussion of his virgin birth or his sinlessness.”.
I will try to explain my understanding of it as clearly as possible without quoting too much Scripture. Also, I would like to point out some differences within English translations. I am quoting Scripture using the NKJV which has been translated from the Greek Textus Receptus (Received Text). If you have the KJV, this is also good. I have checked my Greek interlinear for verification. The reason I point this out is because I have noticed that John 14:30 can have many different meanings when using other translations. 29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” John 14:29, 30. Here we see that Jesus did know that He was sinless; He mentioned this to His Disciples so that they would know also. He is clearly stating that Satan “has nothing in Me”. He could not be sinless if there was any part of Satan’s seed, lies or deceptiveness in Him. He was not born of a human father and therefore could not sin. But Satan nevertheless had a good try at tempting Him and failed on numerous occasions.
As far as Jesus knowing that He was born of a virgin; that goes without saying, because He clearly states that God is His Father. This He declared for the first time when He was only 12 years old; and He knew even then what His Father’s will was.
As far as coming to offer Himself as a sacrifice for all who believe in Him, the Sinless for the sinner, I think Jim has covered most Scripture passages already. But to add to that I would like to point out the following passages: “11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11). “14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep”. (John 10:14, 15). “17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” (John 10:17, 18).
To be continued.
In the Psalms there many references to Jesus speaking. I would like to point this one out in particular: 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations.25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Ps. 102:23-28. This passage is sometimes difficult to understand because the English quotation marks continue all the way through the whole passage making it difficult to know who is speaking. This is where Jesus is speaking to the Father: “I said, O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days”. Here the Son, or the Word, is referring to His crucifixion where His life is taken away. But the Father assures Him by saying: “Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.”
“His resurrections were temporary, no trips to tomorrow land.” I’m sorry, but I can’t help you on this point. We can all see things in different ways. The New Testament is full of references to the resurrection and the New Heaven and New earth, where righteousness dwells. It certainly cannot be this earth.
I think I have covered your questions as best I can without going into too much detail?
New light, Daniel, Jesus spoke in the Psalms? I learn something new every day!
My reference to resurrections being temporary was referring to the people that Christ raised from the dead. They died again, later.
Larry,
“Jesus spoke in the Psalms?” Don’t you see Jesus in the Psalms? What about Psalm 22; note verses 16-18 in particular. I can show you more.
What about the other parts of Scripture I pointed out? What do you think of them?
Larry,
“Christ’s death wasn’t a sacrifice, but an execution.”
That is true in part.
I do not wish to add to what Jim and I have already stated. But that statement of yours I must have missed.
It is a sacrifice for those who are being called by God, as declared throughout the New Testament, which cannot be a New Testament without the Death of the Testator. But it is a MURDER by everyone who rejects God’s call of repentance and acceptance of His Son Jesus Christ. The Word of God was slain from the Foundation of the world because He took on Himself the responsibility of everything which He created, and therefore also the penalty of those who have sinned. But that does not mean He died for the whole world in that everyone will be saved from the condemnation due them because of sin, but rather only for those who believe in Him and receive Him as Lord and Savior. The call to repentance is up to everyone to accept, it is our responsibility. God says: “Acknowledge your sins, and I will receive you.”
By accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are giving Him life. By rejecting Him we are leaving Him slain, crucified, murdered and buried. Who wants to be guilty of that? Not me!
William Noel,
“Jesus NEVER asked His followers to be right.” No, Jesus did not ask, but He did tell them to keep His commands. Without having an understanding of what those commands (or way of life) is, one cannot understand Jesus and what His will for us is. “Love your neighbor as yourself”. That may appear to be a command according to the Law of the Letter, but only by the Spirit of God are we able to live by that principle. Jesus speaks in John 14:15, 23, 24 on this very principle regarding those who Love Him and keep His commands and words. One cannot follow Jesus without knowing who He is.
“Neither did He ask them to study prophecy so they would be correct and able to argue about it, but so they would see Him as the fulfillment of it and know when His return would be nearing.” No, He did not ask them to “study prophecy” but He did say that when the Holy Spirit would come He will “teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you”. John 14:26. That would include the Holy Scriptures. Within the Holy Scriptures we read many things which we do not always understand, but the Holy Spirit expounds the Scriptures, confirming the prophetic message throughout—testifying of Jesus Christ and the work which He does in each individual soul unto salvation. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near”. Rev.1:3.
Tell me, William, How did you come to know about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? Was it not through the New Testament Gospels, that is, the Holy Scriptures? How much of the Scriptures did you read before you learnt about Jesus Christ?
Larry, Sir, you are a lovable scamp. i hear you. i hadn’t considered that which is revealed by the Holy Spirit may be apprehensively anxiety causing. In as much as most relate to the Cosmos when thinking of God’s abode, that is if God has a singular habitable locale. 777 Heavens Court, Universe VII. Be sure to utilize your inertial guidance system in your Hitchhikers Guide to the Universes kit.
Earl, I just want to see that Heavenly Tabernacle for myself! Do you have that address handy?
Daniel, you said this above:
Larry,
“Jesus spoke in the Psalms?” Don’t you see Jesus in the Psalms? What about Psalm 22; note verses 16-18 in particular. I can show you more.
What about the other parts of Scripture I pointed out? What do you think of them?
All I can figure is someone wacked you over the head with a stone and you are seeing stuff everywhere! It’s the opposite of migraine, which I experience, where an attack means I can’t see much, all is blurry bracketed, however, with some entertaining lightening sprites around the disabled eyes!
So maybe my migraine is perpetual after all since I don’t see what you see regarding Jesus. I’m sure the writer of “eyes and see not” was surely a migrainer!
Leaving aside jester-me for a moment, your opinion of Jesus appearing everywhere is fine with me. That’s all!
Larry,
There you go again, speaking riddles. Don’t you think there are prophetic references to Jesus in the Psalms? His name, of course, was not Jesus then.
But, I’m not sure you are being funny or sarcastic in your reply; I’m a little slow in that area.
So, what are you expecting me to write in response to your “migraine” questions? Or would you like me to tell you what kind of “stone” I was “wacked over the head” with?
Larry,
PS. Drink plenty of water; your migraines will go away.
Just being funny, Daniel, trying to inject a little humor, poking a little fun at both you and me. Sarcasm isn’t beyond me, however, but not now. As to the stone on the head, when I have trouble sleeping, I implore my wife to find one, plunk me with it so I will sleep. Put a stop to that silliness recently, she appeared to take it seriously as she headed out the door on a search mission! Came back empty handed. Whew.
Your prescription for migraine is a good reply in kind. If only baptism by immersion could cure it! There seems to be gene in the network with some responsibility. After 45 years I would that it could be washed away by gulping some water!
Larry,
I wasn’t being sarcastic either. I know someone who for many years had severe migraines and then when I asked him how he was going, he told me “no more migraines”. I ask what happened? He said: “I started drinking more water and that’s it, gone!”. Apparently he wasn’t drinking much water; I think some of us do the same, like drink coffee instead.
Just thought I would point that out.