Bake Sale for Homeless LGBT Youth Incites Conflict at Andrews University
By AT News Team, March 11, 2015: A conflict over a fundraiser at Andrews University (AU) that was to be held for homeless lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LBGT) teens has escalated onto social media and other online news outlets. Andrews University, which is located in Berrien Springs, MI, is the flagship educational institution of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Eliel Cruz says he encouraged the university’s unofficial LGBT group Aull4One to hold a bake sale fundraiser for a service agency that supports LGBT homeless youth, reported Blue Nation Review. The Windy City Times added that the agency was Project Fierce in Chicago.
Cruz told Blue Nation Review that Aull4One has approximately 80 members, “majority of them queer.” “Administration knows we exist, they allow us to exist,” Cruz said, “and some administrators even champion the group’s existence. But unfortunately, we are unable to advertise our meetings and events on campus.”
“We turned in a proposal last semester for [a] bake sale, [and the] Deans of Student life asked us to move forward with the proposal,” Cruz said, according to the Windy City Times. “[Since] we are an unofficial group, we needed someone to sponsor us; this is quite common. Many students have ideas and get groups to sponsor them. Campus Ministries agreed to sponsor us.”
When AU decided not to allow the proposed bake sale, Steve Yeagley, dean of Student Life, explained the university position in an email to Cruz, according to Blue Nation Review. “I think the most helpful thing I can do is to draw your attention to the fundraising policy found in the Student Handbook. It simply states that funds may be raised for non-profit organizations ‘whose mission and practices do not conflict with those of the University.’ I think the judgment in this case is that there may be a perceived conflict between the mission and practices of Andrews University and those of Fierce Chicago – certainly not in their efforts to aid homeless youth, but in their approach to the LGBT issue, at large,” Yeagley said.
Yeagley also offered, “If a way can be found to serve LGBT homeless youth through an organization that more fully reflects the University’s mission and the stance of our denomination (which clearly calls for exhibiting compassion toward LGBT persons), let’s explore that.”
Blue Nation Review said Cruz then attempted to clarify: “Also, would a proposal to raise funds for another LGBT organization that works with LGBT homeless youth (say the Center in Halsted) actually be accepted?” It is not clear if the university addressed this specific question.
Andrews University distributed a statement to media sources outlining its perspective. The essential factor in the university’s opinion was the advocacy efforts of Fierce Chicago, rather than the direct service of the agency, according to the school’s statement—“our objection was not to the worthy goal of serving LGBT homeless youth and their transitional housing needs but to the perceived advocacy stance of the proposed organization.”
The entirety of AU’s media statement follows:
Andrews University recognizes the special challenges facing LGBT youth and believes that efforts to help them are worthy.
Providing care to LGBT homeless youth is compatible with our institutional mission to demonstrate God’s love to all people, and reflects our denomination’s specific call to exhibit compassion for LGBT persons.
At the same time, Andrews University has declined a student request to officially endorse a fundraising effort to raise money for an organization that may have a perceived LGBT advocacy role.
This decision was made in the context of our student fundraising policy in the Student Handbook, which states that funds may be raised for non-profit organizations “whose mission and practices do not conflict with those of the University.”
So, our objection was not to the worthy goal of serving LGBT homeless youth and their transitional housing needs but to the perceived advocacy stance of the proposed organization.
As a result, we can and will support LGBT homeless youth through organizations whose mission and purpose clearly align with the religious mission and purpose of our University and its sponsoring church. We invite our student clubs to find the appropriate organizations and opportunities to do just that.
Click on the following links for more information on the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s positions on homosexuality and same sex unions.[1]
The university also posted a question-and-answer document on its website that describes its perspective. In the document, university president Niels-Erik Andreasen shared that AU supports efforts to care for LGBT homeless young people. “It is within the University and Church mission to seek to provide care and compassion wherever and for whoever needs it. The problem of LGBT homeless youth in particular is a heartbreaking national problem—perhaps as many as 40 percent of the homeless teens on the street at any one time are LGBT. Many of these teens were in Christian families who rejected their child’s orientation and, in the process, their child. A safe place and genuine care must be provided for these homeless LGBT youth,” he said.
Andreasen described how AU students can raise money for LGBT homeless people: “Students should engage in serious-minded dialogue about fundraising options with club sponsors or University administrators. Together, students and faculty/staff should explore whether a particular recipient of funds is largely and primarily aligned in support of the University’s mission and its faith commitment. The University recognizes that every single activity of an agency may not be in ‘alignment’—to expect perfect alignment might never permit any outside fundraising. But it is reasonable for the University to expect primary alignment between its mission and an agency’s activities.”
Finally, Andreasen also revealed his frustration with how the conversation was handled on campus. He shared, “the ‘problem’ as the University sees it is that once a decision was made that a student did not like, he stopped conversation about it and went to the press/social media to portray the University in a light that was neither fair nor accurate. What happened to the specific suggestion of an alternative Chicago-based agency that works with homeless LGBT youth and why was that option not explored more fully? These kinds of misunderstandings can be avoided when students and faculty/staff work together in good faith.”
Although this approach to the media was disconcerting for the university, it was quite effective from Aull4One’s perspective. The group raised levels of awareness on campus about the student group and also the experience of homeless LGBT young people more broadly. Furthermore, the publicity has drawn attention to Aull4One’s online fundraising campaign to support Project Fierce.[2] At the time of publication of this story, the campaign had raised $4,995, much more than would have been raised with the originally planned bake sale.
[1] The university’s statement is also available on the school’s website: https://www.andrews.edu/agenda/event/36208.
[2] Aull4One’s IndieGoGo campaign is accessible at https://life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/aull4one-raising-money-for-project-fierce.
I’m sure the renegade theologians at Andrews will concoct some new age theology to beef up support for LGBT+ as a bona fide part of Christian lifestyle? They’ll pull some theological rabbit right out of the hat I’m sure. These theologians at Andrews give the American Standard Version of the Bible a whole different meaning. Aull4One should just get these theologians to baptise their ministry by giving it some biblical basis in order to add some clout and voila – we shall come rejoicing, bringing in the LGBT’s.
Who needs a theologian to come-up with a basis for helping the scorned and outcast in society? I seem to remember a certain Bible character who was severely criticized for associating with tax collectors and other sinners including prostitutes. But their lives were changed because of how He showed them God’s love. What was that man’s name? Oh, I remember! It was Jesus!
If you want to see the power of God transforming people, look past their sins and love them like Jesus did. Then we can all come rejoicing bringing-in the people God is transforming, including you.
Let’s see. I’m attempting to recall who is often quoted in cases like this: “He who is without sin, should cast the first stone.” Oh, now I remember. It was Jesus. I can fantasize how Jesus would respond if a “problem” like this would come up. Probably the first thing he would do is condemn the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and double talk about being “for the sinner and against the sin.”
He condemned the Pharisees for criticizing him AFTER He first committed acts of caring. If only more of us were focused on committing those acts of caring first.
I seem to recall this same person telling a woman “go and sin no more” we need to blend mercy and truth together!!
Do the LGBT crowd admit they are sinners?
Good Question. The main focus in the initial comment from Noel is that Jesus associated with them for the purpose of transforming their lives. Not once in His entire life die He ever accept the lifestyle of the sinner. He stated “Go and sin no more”. Many in the LGBT community want the Christian not only to accept them and love them, they they want Christians to accept the lifestyle.
Did the good Samaritan ask the poor victim on the road to Jericho of his origin or gender or beliefs? Was that an example for us to follow?
If you cannot be your brother’s keeper without first knowing his gender orientation, please look at yourself in the mirror and see someone who is unwilling to help “the poorest of these” as did Christ, who you profess to follow.
Apples & Oranges.
These depraved activists are just in the face of those who are not LGBT.Check how the LGBT crowd acted with Lot. They have a decreasing amount of shame, and get more violent as they get more decadent, perverted and depraved.
“From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” [Matt 4:17]
And WHO failed to repent, Trevor? Was it the conservative, hyper-critical Pharisees as a group?
Prof. John McCaull Wood,
I am confused by the dichotomy between your comments on this subject, versus your comments on articles that are critical of Ellen White. Under those articles, you write lengthy epistles defending Ellen as a prophet.
But on this subject here, you are ready to call everyone else a Pharisee if they seem to hold the traditional view that Ellen held. Have you found any Spirit of Prophecy verses to buttress your apparent support of homosexuality and your liberal interpretation of Leviticus 18:22, Lev. 22:13, Romans 1:27, and I Cor. 6:9 ? Ellen White was pretty straight on this subject. Is she now a “Pharisee” because you disagree with her on this one point?
I just don’t comprehend how you take pride in teaching an advanced Spirit of Prophecy course and defending Ellen to the death–even debating Walter Rae in 1982, and yet your comments here on homosexuality are contrary to her teachings. Please specify even one EGW text that supports your views.
Your favorite line re “sound exegesis” won’t help you. It doesn’t take a doctorate in theology to understand plain language in the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy. Why take all the other verses literally but then try to “exegete” these verses away?
Why do you condemn anyone who has honest doubts about Ellen’s inspiration, but at the same you label people “Pharisees” if they agree with Ellen on this subject? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Jesus called people to repentance only after first demonstrating His love for them and showing them what a better life they could have as a result. His miracles were demonstrations of the great love and power of God because of the very personal benefits they delivered. He healed their illness, raised the dead, comforted them in their sorrows, fed them, etc. That made repenting much easier to do, even appealing.
Just calling to repentance is a waste of your time and defames God unless you have first given them a vision of the better life they can enjoy if they repent. That requires getting involved and doing a lot more than just preaching at them.
I am glad seeing the desire of the Andrews students to do something that helps others. If this is the path where God is leading them, I wish them His greatest blessings. Personally, I’d like to see them open a shelter for homeless LGBT youth. Now that would be really getting involved to demonstrate God’s love to people where they are!
hey man, what you are writing is true but unfortunately, there are many here , that are “MILITANT OR FUNDAMENTALISTS,ATHEISTS that want to engage with you with one purpose.. to ridicule you and to make the church and Christians look evil. this the classical tactic, that many out there are using to do belittle, and show the world that Christianity is WRONG AND IT SHOULD BE ERASED from our society.. thank about this man .. these guys although their act to help others.. is great act of kindness.. their agenda goes in front..LGBT, not HUMAN BEINGS, God Bless
I take it Alvaro that you do n ot consider LGBT’s as human beings.
God bless and help you.
And what, pray tell, about what issues was Jesus asking people to repent? How about religious people who say one thing and do another? How about outward piety without a lot of caring about the needs of others? How about quoting Scripture to win an argument?
I forgot to add “And for Adventists, quoting EGW to win an argument?
Andrews is only willing to support fund raising for groups which require LGBT community members to pretend they’ve somehow magically “changed” into being straight/cis-gendered. That can never really happen, as LGBT people are -born that way-. It’s not a choice.
Andrews does have a choice. They can choose to model Christianity by being kind to everyone, or they can continue choosing to be unfaithful to their vows as Christians by denying their students the right and responsibility of helping to provide food to the hungry, shelter to the homeless, and clothing to the naked. It’s completely hypocritical of Andrews to pick and choose who they will and won’t allow funding/aid to go to.
Jesus didn’t pick and choose… Mother Theresa didn’t either… Life sustaining services are not to be doled out based on how others measure up to one’s personal ideas about how they want to live their -own- life.
What, I have to ask, do they think gives them the authority to write such stupid Student Handbook rules in the first place? Do they really believe that the Seventh-day Adventist church on the whole will support this without dissension in the ranks?! Do they really believe the Bible says, “Pick and choose who you’re nice to when they are in need, based on your own preconceived bias'”??!!!
Here’s a quick study of just a handful of texts, for those who feel the need to quibble:
Term: Homosexual
Verse: 1 Corinthians 6:9 containing the word “abusers” which is redefined by the translators as “homosexuals” and refers to “sodomites.”
( http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Co&c=6&t=KJV&p=0#s=t_corr_1068009 )
Original word: arsenokoitēs (ἀρσενοκοίτης)
Origin: Not locatable. No such word in ancient or modern Greek. Arseno and Koites have the same results when I’ve searched for them, too. I.e., no such word outside of what’s claimed in the Bible to exist, and as a result…
Definition: No way of defining it while translating it into English, except to just make up a definition.
Online Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G733&t=KJV
Term: Know
Verse: Genesis 19:5 ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=19&v=5&t=KJV#s=t_conc_19005 )
Original Word: yada`(יָדַע)
Origin: Hebrew, likely “commoners Hebrew” (not Temple Hebrew)
Definition: Too long to list here in detail, but essentially (and only) intellectual knowledge and learning.
Online Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3045&t=KJV
Term: Lie (down) with
Verse: Genesis 19:32 ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=19&t=KJV#s=t_conc_19032 )
Original Word: shakab (שָׁכַב)
Origin: Hebrew (same as above)
Definition: To lie down sexually (again, I’m paraphrasing here)
Online Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7901&t=KJV
I’d love to see Andrews’ theologians adequately…
Why isn’t the LGBT community doing more to help its own people. A lot of the older members of the community would enjoy some fresh meat, so it seems strange that an SDA organization must raise funds to help these youngsters
Why not expel Eliel Cruz from the university? Sound like a nuisance.
You certainly are an advertisement for the folks on these threads who sow nothing but negativity for SDAdventism. With church members like you, who needs to worry about the papacy?
Hmmmmm.
Hansen,
You wrote: “Why isn’t the LGBT community doing more to help its own people.”
I have many friends in the LGBT community so I can tell you from firsthand observation that, while some try to do as you wish, it more often is a very unfriendly place to be. After all, their behavior is driven by sin, so why would you expect them to find love and kindness there. More than that, since Jesus died to save all, why would you suggest that His followers pass-up an opportunity to administer His healing and transforming love to someone who is hurting? Is we’re supposed to be ministering salvation, why do you suggest passing-up on an opportunity to do it?
Last time I checked, the conventional or standard Christian belief system states that all human behavior is “driven by sin.” Any particular reason for focusing on one behavior which, in the view of Mr. Noel, is so driven? I can think of a number of hypothesis that could account for the comment.
You’re right, Erv. I was using it that way to contrast between the attitude of those who think their sins are less offensive to God than the sins of others that quickly get condemned for being worse sins, if only just more obvious.
“Driven by Sin.” Sin seems to be defined as behavior on the part of others, and not what I am doing.
Yes, the “driven by sin” comment reeks of Pharasaism, and the prayer in the Temple “God I thank thee that I am not as other men such as 1. those who do not know “the truth,” and 2. especially the homosexuals.”
However, the premise that drew forth these unsanctified attitudes was that the LGBT (I think I got all that right) wasn’t doing enough to take care of its own.
Did anyone read the article? This all began because a “gay” group in Chicago was seeking funds from supporters hither and yon to provide for LGBT kids homeless on the streets of Chicago. And some students at Andrews thought it would be a good cause.
The gays were taking care of their own — from their own perspective.
And yes, I can personally testify to seeing “Christian” parents reject their children and create some of these homeless situations. I put “Christian” in quotes for the same reason I would some of the quotes above.
The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats is everything we need to know about the Last Judgment. The Son of Man says to those who think they did “many wonderful works” in His Name, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you!”
Ouch.
On the other hand, those who visited the imprisoned (who were presumably mostly the guilty) or clothed the naked (who may be so because of sloth or bad habits) or fed the hungry (perhaps driven from home too soon by “Christian” parents) were all commended “FOR AS MUCH AS YOU DID SO TO THE LEAST OF THESE — MY BRETHREN — YOU DID ALSO TO ME.”
Double and triple warning for certain attitudes.
Me a Pharisee? Gosh! Have you got that wrong! I’m about as far to the opposite end of the spiritual spectrum as anyone can be and still call themselves Adventist. I’m one of the biggest advocates of ministering God’s love wherever you are and in whatever circumstance that you’ll find.
“Drive by sin” was a play on words to contrast how many in the church who make themselves feel they are righteous, or at least not as sinful, as others because their sins are not obvious to the public and shockingly sexual.
You also missed something very big in the article. Yes, the fact that it was a Gay group from Chicago asking for help shows that there are some in that community who are trying to do good things and help those in need. What you missed was that they asked for help because the scale of their efforts is inadequate to the need, so they need help. When you see the very high suicide rates in the LGBT community and hear the stories I hear about how desperate people are for help that isn’t there for them, you’ll see just how little help is being given. Do I think the effort of the student will satisfy the need? No. But at least they have an opportunity to help where it is needed.
I stand by my comments.
The tendency to legalism so strong in SDAdventism has by no means abated, as these threads show.
My problem with this particular topic is the assumption of the Pharasaic types that they understand what passages as Lev 18 mean. NOT SO.
The attitudes are not based on the actual meaning of the Scriptural passages sometimes called “gay” texts.
I see here that you didn’t have the back-bone, AR, to post my comment. Are you seriously that afraid of the truth??? Are you that homophobic?!
I don’t know what your truth is. But the way I see this case is that some students at AU are getting distracted from their books and classes, portraying a façade of great concern for a very limited, segregated population in name of charity.
They have been trying to force AU into something the U does not want to. I believe the University still have the liberty and freedom to decide participation in projects on campus at its own discretion.
Why those so immensely committed students don´t start their project off campus? They have the freedom to do that, don´t they?
How disgusting and repulsive to call young gays “fresh meat” I would further state that when it comes to expelling people, maybe the author of that cruel remark should be expelled from the human race.!!!!!!!!
I agree with you. Such a statement is disgusting and repulsive. It is also one of the more polite descriptions you will find being used on the street in the gay community. If you want to find someone to expel from the human race, I can suggest plenty of other candidates more deserving of that action.
If you associate with the dregs of society you can find what you are looking for in any group. Are the pronunciations of some SDA’s that all gays will roast in Hell to be considered representative of all SDA’s??? I can think of sexual remarks made by heterosexuals too obscene to print. Is that an indictment all heterosexuals?? Is the fact that some heterosexuals indulge in perversion too gross to even think of an indictment of all heterosexuals. I personally have mostly Christian gay friends and have never heard the term “fresh meat” used for our younger brothers and sisters. But if a low class gay bar is your usual habitat, then you may hear what you are looking for. If you crawl in the sewer long enough you are sure to find something to your liking!!!
There is great variety across any spectrum and what you see and hear depends on where you are. My first serious exposure to the utter depravity of sexual predators, gay and lesbian behavior, transgenderism, etc. was in New York City in the early 1980s. One of my first major magazine articles was about a shelter for teen runaways in the Times Square area, which at the time had earned the description of “the armpit of the world.” While there are great differences between the victims of a depraved sexual predator or an affluent and civilized homosexual, their common need is to know God’s love so they can experience His power to transform them from what they are into what He wants them to be. Our challenge is to know that transforming love and power in our experience so we will be able to share it.
Yes, William, “fresh meat” is an appropriate description of the predatory behavior common in the gay community. “Chicken hawks” are an example of this kind of behavior. For example, a predatory gay man who manages to become a Pathfinder leader would be the “hawk” and the inexperienced youth he seduces would be the “chickens”.
This kind of behavior,to a lesser extent, is a major component of the Bear/cub homosexual relationships which enthrall men with a certain twist to their libido.
Then of course, as we coast downhill, we encounter the true pedophiles, i.e. grown men who prefer prepubescent male youth as their [sexual]partners. These guys are actually the perfect combination of bear/hawk preying upon or cuddling their chickens/cubs.
The obvious danger to Pathfinders from predatory criminals who insinuate themselves into the Adventist family will become clear when law enforcement becomes involved and kicks their gay rear ends into prison.
I don’t understand why Eliel’s group is focusing ONLY on the gays who are homeless. Why not ALL homeless?
I wonder what would be his reaction if some straight students started a movement like that favoring only straight homeless people… There would probably be dust and feathers everywhere for a long time.
Shouldn’t the rules be the same for all?
By the way, an University is a place where people go to study, not to create this type of agitation. If they really want to do good, they should get a few more classes to occupy their time better, finish their degrees, get a steady job in real life. Then they will be free to start their charity projects at will.
Many who are homeless will not share a space with non-straights and they particularly dislike transgender folk. That is why separate accommodations are safer as there is enough fighting and disruption in homeless camps already.
It doesn’t matter if the LBGT are not at all predators but they are perceived that way, especially by some of the homeless who are already bipolar or have similar problems.
I try to imagine the parents of such children who have left home, some because they have been kicked out but others who cannot be managed at home and adults cannot be forced to take their medications or other directives. That is why there should be a safe place for these often hated outcasts.
Forgive my ignorance/(naïveté ?) But how would the sexual preference of an individual be discovered in a “generic shelter”. Why would it be necessary to provide such personal information in such a potentially volatile enviroment? In healthcare HIPPA protects privacy of personal information.
I feel it should be no one’s business what a person’s sexual preference is. Why announce it and bring on trouble?
Just to update this issue, it has been clarified that Fierce Chicago does not promote ANYTHING but housing for gay youth, so AU jumped to a false conclusion. Also they latest figures I have seen for the online fundraising campaign is nearly $t,000.
“…once a decision was made that a student did not like, he stopped conversation about it and went to the press/social media to portray the University in a light that was neither fair nor accurate.”
It reminds me the attitude of the 47-Senators in regards to Iran…i. e., alliance with the enemy in order to show power at home, but at the same time disturbing the peace at home.
I don’t know how would those students’ action be called, but probably not what the 47’s action has been considered, treason.
It would appear that Satan has been successful in finding a way to cause disruption at Andrews. SALUTE!
Now the media, which is often inspired by Satan, has fuel to add to the flame. Satan is probably salivating like a rabid wolf.
People, people, stay focused. This issue has nothing to do with homeless people who need help. It is strictly about advancing the acceptance of a behavior IN the church that can give the worldly non believers another reason to reject the SDA message.
The SDA church does a LOT to show it cares about all people in all places of the world. If you claim otherwise, you are totally ignoring the millions of dollars of necessities donated all over the world.
This is not about the homeless, it is a ploy to one day have the church “accept” LGBT agenda.
You want to help the homeless?
Then take up a collection.
Bake sales too often have entirely too much sugar and other unhealthy things that SDA should not be consuming.
Shame…
Nonsense, morgan. This is a church that unlike Catholics allows its hospitals to conduct abortions to make more money.
Hmmmmm.
And yet the Pharasaism and legalism is as strong as ever. The group in question is about caring for the homeless, period. That the homeless in this case are people you choose to believe are damned to burn in hell is beside the point.
(The SDA hell is the Baptist hell, only shorter. That’s what happens when the Bible is misinterpreted.)
Actually, the demographers tell us that homosexuals as people are already accepted but less so as you move through an older and older population. Which I suspect most of those exhibiting the Pharasaism are part of.
And no, George, that’s a faulty analogy. The 47 senators are millionaires, multi-millionaires. They are not viewed as damned by God to hell, or allowed to be called “an abomination” by anyone except fundies. (One can imagine what would happen if the fundies were as vicious to black folks.)
The Parable of the Sheep and Goats applies to many on this thread. They will say at the last judgment that they did many wonderful works in Christ’ name. And He will say to them “DEPART FROM ME, YOU WORKERS OF INIQUITY [THE WORST CATEGORY OF SIN, BTW]. I NEVER KNEW YOU!”
Ouch. Be warned.
With so many homosexual rights activists in America, among whom are many so-called Christians, including Adventists, who brag and nag about loving the homosexuals and that they are just harmless, wonderful people, who aren’t bad in any way, and that their lifestyle is an acceptable norm that the Church should accept, yet one wonders why these LGBT people are still homeless and on the street.
I will offer a quick solution:
Why don’t the Christians, especially our Adventists in America who support homosexual rights, go out in their numbers and open their doors to these poor LGBT outcasts of society. Then there’ll be no more LGBT youth on the streets. Come on which one here on the boards will go out and take a homeless LGBT youth in today. Will Mr. Noel, Mrs. Nelson or perhaps Dr. Taylor be first?
Your “quick solution” may work, especially if it is first taught by example…
The failure to understand the dichotomy between nature & nurture (being & doing) often causes tremendous unnecessary conflicts about this issue. This is when people generalize the concepts and end up hurting, disrespecting other human beings for no reason.
Until one understands that nature will not be changed, that no reparative therapy has ever worked (except in those fraudulent cases reported by charlatans that want to keep ripping people off), there is little hope that the issue will be treated fairly, honestly, and Christian-like. No individual is responsible for his/her nature, since they can’t choose it.
Having said that, though, nurture (behavior) is another story. It’s indisputable that behavior is chosen. And, if any promiscuous behavior is chosen by an individual (of any gender or orientation), well…, then there are consequences to that.
Families, Churches, Schools, and Society at large may have different treatments of choice for different behaviors. But, again, this is a choice people make, and they have to put up with the social consequences in a responsible way.
You ARE joking, right? You actually think that the millions upon millions the world over who say they never chose this are ALL lying?
You DO understand that gender preference is instilled in early childhood, and to judge from the statistically signicant way it shows up in extended families (many homosexuals have others on the mother’s side in more than “normal” numbers) shows that it is not the GENES but the GENETIC MARKERS that tell the genes how to be expressed that is at issue.
Try to ignore modern studies. Why have your misinformation challenged? Keep on saying these folks are damned and see who is indeed damned on judgment day.
Or not. Perhaps instead keep the commandments.
Which ones? These: Love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself.
“You DO understand that gender preference is instilled in early childhood, …”
Thanks, but I don’t have any need or willingness to be lectured on this issue. I am an experienced Clinical Psychologist, Licensed in California, with enough study and knowledge on the issue, besides long term experience dealing with human behavior.
Please put on the table your professional credentials and experience for making the statement above. Hopefully you have something to back up your professorial language. Which I actually doubt!
And also, please clarify what you mean by “early childhood” as you understand it.
George,
I’ve read this exchange between you and JH several times, and am puzzled. You both appear to be pretty much on the same page as far as acknowledging that sexual/gender preference/orientation is in our nature and not subject to change. You do go on to mention nurture (choice) and state that promiscuous behavior is a problem regardless of gender/orientation.
Many in the GLBT community have formed commited, monogamous relationship, many have entered into civil marriages, some blessed by other denominations. Many of these couples have children. Do you, like the SDA church, feel that these people are acting inappropriately? Should they deny themselves the companionship of marriage and everything that goes with it, or should they simply remain celibate?
Supporting them does not mean boarding them. I support them with my $$ but I cannot take in any boarders. Do you support any homeless? If so, do you ask the orientation first?
If you are a heterosexual, when did you decide that important decision?
The church must not give in to the lie of this generation. We must stick to the truth. And women must not be ordained as pastors. If ever the church ordains women irrespective of what the bible says, it will then be inconsistent to not accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle.
Mr “BibleTruth” will you share your truth with me.
Where Exactly does the bible forbid women being ordained? I want to hear this. Be specific.
Will you leave the church when women are ordained? When homosexuals are welcomed in the church? When sinners are welcomed in the church, where will you be?
Here’s hoping that many will….
Wrong answer. Smarmy and not sanctified by any means.
Elaine are you still a practicing, church attending SDA? I’m interested because of your comments.
If so, why?
The bulk of USA MSM is held in the grip of 6/not many more entities personal or corporate. Truth, morality, religions, or national loyalty are no longer hallmarks honored by MSM. Running to the press for any human, social, or religious issues, is more like running into a lions den of famished and controlled misinformation demons. We must ‘Love God’s simple truths’. The most sensitive is calling sin sin in these days and times. The Gay population is extremely educated and they can read and reason for themselves. Yes– God is loving, compassionate,forgiving– the source of all heavenly wisdom. We must seek His wisdom as homosexuality has always been a troubling human concern, and today even more so. No matter what laws and justification made by man, in a spirit of love, compromise, or hatred– God’s divine wisdom has been shared from the Garden Of Eden and will stand until the coming of the Prince Of Peace.
The main concern of the University may be that of endorsing or encouraging the LGBT lifestyle, whether for homeless or for the alleged 80 Aull4one on the campus. If raising funds for the homeless people in general were the cause, which may include those with any lifestyle or addiction, ie. alcoholism, drugs, prostitution, or illness, then I believe the University would gladly support the cause, but singling out one particular lifestyle might be seen as condoning that behavior.
James 3:17::- 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
This needs to be given to the people I defend like the homosexual and zoosexual. Murderously minded implacable, malicious, deceitful, unmerciful, covenantbreaking, backbiting people are against the homosexual and zoosexual. They are not any of those words. People are sinning against their soul saying the Gay and zoo are evil. Stop debating why they should be treated badly.
AFTER READING THE ABOVE COMMENTS, I’VE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT MOST PEOPLE (SINNERS) WOULD RATHER ARGUE THAN HELP. WHY DO YOU WANT TO SINGLE OUT ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE? IF WE ARE ALL SINNERS, THEN WE’RE ALL IN THE SAME SEPTIC TANK, AND TILL WE ACCEPT THAT, HOW CAN WE ACCEPT EACH OTHER? BUT, THAT’S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO (ACCEPT EACH OTHER) AND THEN GET OUT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WAY, SO HE CAN DO THE SANITIZING. GOD BLESS AND SAVE US ALL. G.C.A. GO AHEAD AND BEAT ME UP. I’M USED TO IT, I’M MARRIED!!!!
The university may certainly give donations to any homeless group regardless of that group’s orientation. But it should not be forced to give to any particular group. And yes, sin is sin and we are all sinful through heredity and practice. However, Jesus has died for our sins and calls us to repentance. Repentance means forsaking any sinful practice through God’s help. Refusal to give up any sinful practice will lead to eternal loss. That’s what God says. And He’s there to give us all the help we need to overcome any sinful practice. It is not so much the practice that is sinful (which it is), but the ‘being’ or the mind that is corrupted. Our hard-drive is totally infected, and only Jesus can fix it. Let’s let Him do that with our cooperation and He will. After all, isn’t He the creator? He can re-create any perverted individual. And for us that are healed let us seek to help and heal others that they may be part of the kingdom to come! Of course they have the right to refuse our help to heal their hard-drive. And that’s what Lucifer did, and was allowed to choose his own way, but to do that he forfeited the right to be in heaven and the right to be holy, eternal, and happy. Let’s learn from his sad experience!!
I misunderstood. I thought this w as about a bake sale (not a good idea because of the sugar, which would have been my objection) that people would come to and buy products.
If so, the university was not forced to give to any particular group. Mischaracterization won’t help in a situation like this.
Let us remember that the character changes under the influence of the gospel, BUT NATURE DOES NOT CHANGE AND WILL NOT CHANGE UNTIL THE SECOND COMING.
Many are confused on that point in relation to this topic.
“for us that are healed” Whatever would we do without all these “healed ” to show us the light!!!! Praise the Lord.
I know several who have been so radically transformed by God from their previous gender-variant lifestyle that they epitomize redemption in the extreme. Yet they are forced to keep silent because the religious majority is so deeply stuck in political correctness and spiritual denial about the power of God that they get attacked every time they open their mouth to make their redemption and transformation known.
Yup, them “change” ministries really work.
On a few. Precisely because gender-preferenced sexuality in humans is a SPECTRUM, NOT AN EITHER-OR.
There are millions of men (and women) along that spectrum. Some, near or at the middle really DO have choice and really CAN change if they desire to.
HOWEVER, the millions at the one end of the spectrum who are completely and utterly 100% heterosexual will NEVER become homosexual, no matter if they spend A LIFETIME in a prison.
AND the millions at the other end of the spectrum who are completely and utterly 100% homosexual will never change no matter how much they are drugged while watching male sex acts and other perverse things done at change ministries.
Which is why for every “convert” we hear of so many horror stories. Attributing that to an evil intent on the part of those who did not change defies what has been known from studies for more than a century.
Kinsey clearly defined the spectrum and it has been found to be true over a long period of time. Reality sometimes makes fools of fundamentalists, and this is perhaps a parade example.
Perhaps I am wrong but this thread is about AU policy not supporting organizations that don’t share our values. This is not about refusing to support the need of any group of people in need.
Knowing the end game for any lifestyle that is committed to sinful living, are we being helpful to support a organization which promotes the lifestyle?
According to the Pew Research Center 88% of those in Spain and 60% in the USA and 80% of those in Canada take the position that the homosexual lifestyle should be accepted by society. The fact is this lifestyle does not promote life at any level. Why would we want to promote it? Public opinion does not change the natural consequences of lifestyle choices.
On the other hand being a tangible blessing to any sinner is well within the circle of God’s plan to save sinners. The first step in recovering from sin is to acknowledge the lifestyle is sinful. It should not be a surprise that all of us have a proclivity to premarital sex, extra marital sex, same gender sex. We live in a sinful world. There are two options. Redefine sin or face the one given in the Word of God and provide the remedy to all sin…Jesus.
The problem with redefining sin and saying the homosexual lifestyle (as opposed to inclination) is acceptable and should be embraced, ignores that there is a natural conclusion of the choice to act on the sinful inclination! The wages of sin is death, not because God says so, but because it is so. Without God taking any action the results of a sinful lifestyle results in sickness, depression, shame, embarrassment and a feeling of the need to hide from God and others.
AU should be supported in the difficult stand it took. And all of us should look for ways to give support for individuals in need.
Perhaps you should read today’s essay on the Spectrum site. EGW supported the WCTU even though it was for Sunday Law because she believed that their major effort was to prohibit the use of alcohol although she did not agree with any of their other projects.
If the church prophet could align with an organization for good, it should ignore other areas where there is not concurrence.
That is no different than voting where few candidates may represent all your wishes; or even the church which may not promote ever single ideology that you might believe that they should.
Let me respond without being too lengthy “this lifestyle does not support life at any level.” That should come as a surprise to the thousands of gay couples who are raising happy and healthful children. The reseach all shows (yes, I have my master’s in counseling so I do keep up with the current literature) that children raised in gay households turn out to be as well-adjusted and happy as straight households. But then again there must be something wrong with me because I do not have sickness, depression,shame, embarrassment and afeelikng of need to hide from God. In fact I talk to Jesus everday and feel the lines of communication between him and me to be always open. Forgiveness is one of Jesus’ key messages, and this is where Jesus has indeed blessed gay people – we have so many more chances to practice forgiveness than the usual Christian. We can pray for those who choose to judge, degrade us, and always have a rock in their hands ready to throw. I think many suprises awaits us in heaven when we see who is there and who is missing.
Miles,
Amen! A lot of people are going to be very surprised by the true dimension of what is meant in Hebrews 7:25 about God saving “to the uttermost all who come” to Him.
Miles,
I support what you have said. It is reasonable, logical and compassionate. It’s unfortunate that so many gay people don’t have the faith you do and don’t feel good about seeking it.
It’s been said that in end times knowledge is increased, and certainly we have more information about what the Bible was talking about and the setting. We also now know the biological facts about this orientation. It is up to the “religious” to be open to the facts and look to the real Truth in Jesus and He treated people.
Homosexuality in the Bible was more about straight men using boys and practicing this sin in pagan temples. And if you believe all the men in Sodom were homosexual, you’re not very smart or insightful. It was an act to humiliate their victims, to treat them like women who were even lower in their estimation.
Adventists and A BAKE SALE? Are we talking about cakes and cookies? Selling products laden with sugar? Is this the same SDA Church where sugar is a poison? And they are wanting to sell it to the general public? The Cancer Society names sugar as the number one cause of cancer and this church is promoting it? And from a spiritual stand point, isn’t sugar the leading cause of sin?
Couldn’t someone use their home to have a yard sale? Why does the church need to be involved in this? Let individuals write a check to the organization and send it now! The church doesn’t need to know –good works done in secret are the only works that get rewarded.
I’m scratching my head!
Ever heard of “Little Debbie’s” The major sweet cookie baker is a very conservative Adventist giving major funding to the church.
Elaine, have you ever heard of hypocrisy?
Those with no guilt are certainly throwing the first stones!
Yes, no one should protest mass murderers, serial rapists, child molestors, or those involved in bestiality either..those poor unfortunates in need of the love of Jesus. Why don’t you start a mission for those poor misguided members of ISIS too?
In fact you should start a campaign to reach unloving SDA stone throwers too.
Maybe that’s the subject the church should have broke instead of getting into this sensitive subject.
It’s my opinion that the church, in this case, is sensitive to crossing any lines for or against. We all know the legend of Pandora’s Box and this could be a case in point. In the past, the church crossed the line on other things only to find themselves trapped and forced to change their beliefs which previously they passionately condemned. In this case, they wanted to nip it in the bud, so they drew the line in the sand and erred on the side of caution.
These people could set up an account to receive donations without any endorsement from the church. There is Facebook and Twitter? And having a garage sale to raise money would be much better than pushing a bake sale that contributes to obesity and cancer. What are they thinking? Or, like James said, just write the check and keep your mouth shut and get ready to receive a shower of blessings.
My intuition tells me that there was a little more behind the scenes than just “selling cupcakes for a honorable case.”
When a specific group was targeted to benefit, especially one so particular, that also meant something.
But, well…, intuition is not always reliable…
With such amazing success that has been seen with “Crowd Funding” on the internet, if they had begun such a project would the school have interrupted it or what might their reaction have been? By the time it became fully known they might have received far more than any bake sales.
“Come on which one here on the boards will go out and take a homeless LGBT youth in today. Will Mr. Noel, Mrs. Nelson or perhaps Dr. Taylor be first?”
Don’t look for a whirlwind of activity in response to your suggestion. It’s easy to sit in one’s comfortable home and pontificate on what the rest of us should accept and what we should do.
I’m looking for the first one who responds affirmatively to your suggestion.
Maranatha
In Matthew 25, Jesus condemns the Goats because they wouldn’t even help “the least of these, my brothers.” Are you willing to step outside your protected spiritual cocoon and do the work God is putting in front of you where you are? I hope you are. It can be scary at first. When God pushed me outside my comfortable spiritual cocoon decades ago, I was frightened. Then I learned to follow where He was leading and that turned ministering His love into an adventure I wouldn’t trade for anything in the world!
If you can’t show love to the least, what you give to the greatest is hypocrisy.
Simply BECAUSE there are thousands of homeless are you also willing to take one in your home, regardless of their sexual orientation?
That is why there are homeless shelters for the needy where organizations can better offer shelter and food. I send donations monthly to a number of such local organizations. You can do that without personally sheltering them, if you ever considered that.
You can be involved in different ways. Some are called to deliver the service while others are called to facilitate it. Just be involved.
Yeah SDA are so exclusive, prejudice and discriminatory.
99% of Christianity has invalidated the 4th commandment except the hold out SDA and a very small group of others. Just think of how SDA consider 99% PAGAN, BAAL worshipers of the beast and follower after SATAN. Wow!
Not too good for marketing, huh? There are some posting here who are SDA renegades who don’t like Sabbath either.
It is sad that Adventism has in the past made it’s main evangelistic tool the attack on other religions. Ahh, the Beast and the Image of the Beast, so well identified…
This was (is) a disgrace.
Anyone want to join Stone Throwers Anonymous for those who throw stones at those who throw stones?
There is competition in town though, the IST club: Identified Stone Throwers! … LOL
FOR THOSE WHO ARE SUGGESTING OTHERS ARE THOWING STONES? Aren’t you guys throwing stones by suggesting others are throwing stones? I mean, judging is judging and covers all facets and degrees of the act. Think about it.
I prefer trying to heal the injuries caused by that rock-throwing.
Yeah judging is judging. Just think of how often SDA pastors and Sabbath school teachers identify those who sit in pews as Laodicean. No matter how consecrated, sanctified the are, or how much revival & reformation they have gone through, they will still be labeled Laodicean til they die.
I think we confuse the aspects of judgment. No one has the right to judge another in respects to salvation and redemption. But in our daily lives we pass judgment every day. When teaching I passed judgment many times a day, and believe me if a child picked up a stone and hit another child, rest assured that judgment was swift and sure.
why did the student not go to the media first, instead of trying to circumvent the university rules and administration? what would Jesus have done? that we dont know, in spite of thinking we have an answer for everything.