Assurance of Salvation
by Glen Striemer
by Glen Striemer, September 9, 2014
You hear it spoken across the land on a weekly basis, “We don’t believe in once saved, always saved. We need to die daily.” (1 Corinthians 15:31) This combination of thought undermines the good news of the gospel and is actually quite a prideful statement, in that by my dying daily to self I somehow manage to maintain my good status as being saved. This is why the doctrine of predestination was invented in the first place, because Calvin and his followers couldn’t accept that by doing you were achieving salvation. They knew that only a minority were going to enter into heavenly places, so they created a doctrine whereby only a few were selected by God for salvation, regardless of their performance. Luther’s followers, on the other hand, believed that the “just shall live by faith,” the only problem being that they believed it was by our own faith that we manufacture salvation. Here the religious world sat for centuries, until the year 1888 in a church in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the world was re-introduced to righteousness by faith, the faith of Jesus. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is often to referred to as a “movement of destiny.” It cannot be because we believe in the seventh-day Sabbath, for that was taught to us by our friends, the Seventh-day Baptists; it cannot be because of baptism by immersion, for that was taught to us by the early Amish Mennonites; it cannot be because we pay tithes, for we have the Jews to thank for this truth. We are a church of destiny because we introduced the final stepping stone in the recovering of truths long lost since Pentecost. We were not supposed to reject this message which is found within the one unique pillar of Adventism, the heavenly sanctuary message. Dr. Waggoner was challenged from the audience by one of his hearers who cried out, “Are you preaching the doctrine of universalism!” To which E.J. Waggoner calmly and confidently replied, “I am preaching what the Bible says.”
As long as angels hold back the winds of strife, we are not saved by our understanding of doctrine, no matter how pressingly beautiful it is. This is easily proven when we read the dynamic prayer of Jesus found in John 17. Jesus tells His readers that He is one with His disciples and they are one with Him. At that particular moment in history, Christ’s disciples by today’s standards were not even candidates for baptism. They did not understand the cross or the resurrection, and they certainly did not understand the 2300-day prophecy found in Daniel, nor the eternal kingdom to come.
When we utter the words “We don’t believe in once saved, always saved,” it is as though these thoughts are directed at some huge religious movement whose followers do believe these things. One of my great surprises in 25 years of colporteur ministry was that I couldn’t find a single soul who actually believed in predestination. I know they are out there somewhere, perhaps hiding in the Primitive Baptist Church, but for all intents and purposes, that ship has sailed. A quick Google search shows that modern Baptists, be they Southern Baptists or mainstream, believe that everyone has a chance at salvation. Our continuing argument might have found an audience to debate back in the Middle Ages but not so much today. The only purpose this phrase serves today is to remind our own people that salvation is not merely historical but something that needs continual renewing, thus the tagalong verse of how we need to die daily. With this type of thinking comes the lack of assurance of salvation the Bible speaks so plainly about. Probably its greatest single effect is seen in the never-ending surveys amongst our youth, which reveal that academy and university students are quite uncertain about their salvation status.
If we look at salvation through the eyes of the Jewish scholar Apostle Paul, we grasp the Jewish concept that all Jews are one. It has been said that if you kill or hurt one Jew you do it to all. Paul capitalized on this thinking, expanding it into gospel terms his Jewish hearers understood all too well. “Therefore as by the offence of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation” (Romans 5:18). Herein is defined the great corporate act of Adam in condemning the world to damnation. Adam’s act affected all men, in spite of the fact that none were present or partakers of it. You couldn’t choose to accept or reject what Adam did, for it came upon all men. Over the years many have deduced this Bible concept as being grossly unfair, especially when it brought along death as its penalty. But Paul doesn’t leave his hearers to lack faith in an unjust God, for he brings us to the other side of the great teeter totter of life. “By the righteousness of One, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” (Romans 5:18). Again, we were not present, nor did we have any part to play, and like Adam’s, it was a corporate decision which came upon all men without a chance to accept or reject its results. Sometimes it’s hard to believe but a murderer (Saul of Tarsus) or heathen (Luke, the Greek physician) stands with a corporate justification of life status of which they must either fall on their face and believe in, or consider it not worthwhile to believe in. At some point there is a line that is crossed (which only God knows) called the unpardonable sin, which grieves away the Holy Ghost’s influence in getting us to believe the good news. Unfortunately, most of the world chooses to not believe, and this is evidenced everywhere by their body of unbelief work manifested in unsavoury, selfish, cruel, evil deeds hoisted upon the innocent by their diabolic hand. For the small minority who choose to believe, as Abram did, God’s words remain steadfast: “He believed in the Lord and He counted it unto him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6).
There is absolutely zero merit earned when we accept Christ. We cannot receive justification of life when we accept Christ, for how can “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) be sacrificed every time a soul repents and comes to Jesus? The Lamb was slain spiritually in Eden and reaffirmed at great risk to God in a physical manifestation in sinful, carnal flesh at Calvary. In God’s eyes this was a singular act of sacrifice, not a dual one. It was the faith of God in action. If you doubt a realistic sacrifice in Eden, then we must ask how Enoch, Elijah and Moses ended up in heaven before Calvary? Our only conclusion – there is one way of salvation for all time. God did, and we believe – that is justification by our faith.
Once we’ve established where our salvation comes from, finding assurance of salvation is easy. You may have heard this phrase mentioned from the pen of inspiration, “There is not one in ten worthy to be saved.” Often, the “one in ten” gets expanded to include “not one in twenty.” And the speakers seem to quote this statement with a badge of pride. You can be certain they do not include themselves in the lost 19 while they pity the condition of their hearers. To appreciate Ellen White’s comment, let’s view it in context. In the Bible writings, holy men of old were moved by the Holy Ghost to pen their thoughts, using the vernacular of the day. A classic example is found in the book of Daniel, where the king found Daniel and his three friends to be ten times better than his own wise men when it came to knowledge, due to their vegetarian diet. (Daniel 1:20) This expression drives home the writer’s point of emphasis but in reality it is physically impossible for a genius to be ten times smarter than even an imbecile. Again, the furnace prepared for the three Hebrew worthies being heated seven times hotter than previous is again physically impossible but the point is vividly made how hot these flames were. Likewise, Mrs. White, whom we love to quote verbatim, line upon line, expresses her utter frustration with the ministry of her day who were treating this message with carelessness and flippancy in the light of the soon appearing of Jesus. It is not a yardstick on today’s congregations that only one in every ten or twenty is fit to be saved. This line of thought is not Biblical when it comes to believers faithfully worshipping on Sabbaths across the world. It does create a mindset of trying to manufacture a better performance, which is destructive and discouraging, not to mention hopeless. No wonder many youth conclude, “Why bother to try, if only 5% are going to make it anyway, especially those whom I look up to as being saints? Against those stacked odds I might as well live it up now.”
Because we are eternally tied into the Lamb from before the foundation of the world, we are also tied into His one sacrifice in matters of salvation. The Old Covenant way is to continually offer up sacrifices to ensure a saving state. But Jesus “needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice … for this He did once when He offered up Himself …” (Hebrews 7:27). Jesus entered in once into the Holy Place having obtained eternal redemption for us …” (Hebrews 9:12). Nor yet shall He offer Himself often … for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world, but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself … so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many” (Hebrews 9:26,28). The New English Bible puts it plainly that Christ “bore the burden of men’s sins.”
“But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God … For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us … by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10: 12, 14-15, 10). Our sanctification is tied into this one-time offering of Christ, and even though our personal sanctification (or performance) is the work of a lifetime, the act of salvation sanctification is a one-time act in Christ. For us to doubt salvation, to regard “I die daily” as meaning that I need to renew my salvation on a daily basis just because I don’t believe in once saved, always saved, is to enter into an old covenant experience. However, “a new covenant … hath made the first old” (Hebrews 8:13). There is “a new and living way, which Jesus hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh (sarx, which is sinful flesh). “All their sins and iniquities I will remember no more” because “there is no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10: 17,18)
The time is well past to graduate from the foot of Sinai, where “all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the Lord hath said we will do … and be obedient’” (Exodus 24: 3,8). That their intention was sincere there can be no doubt; that their performance failed time and time again, there can also be no doubt. We need to get to the New Covenant place where we “draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, . . . having . . . boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus” (Hebrews 10: 22,19). To the comers in ancient days it was a blasphemous thought for anyone to consider going into the holiest who was not a high priest. In New Covenant times, if we consider that our sanctification is as much a part of the free gift which came upon all men as is our salvation, then there is no room for works-oriented thinking, other than simply to please our Lord for His goodness and mercy by the holy life we choose to live. We can go boldly where no Old Covenant sort would dare to go because “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light.” (1 Peter 2:9)
The assurance of salvation frees us to begin living in the empowerment and guidance of the Holy Spirit. How I wish more who profess to believe in Jesus would allow themselves to graduate into the relationship that God desires to have with us in the Holy Spirit!
Yes, indeed preach on. "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testifided of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the So of God, that you may know that you have eternal life ant that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:9-13. Blessings! Dr. Phil, Boulder, CO
Yes indeed, Dr Phil, yes indeed. Amen
"in order to be saved we must know by experience…it is a fearful mistake…. to go on day by day, professing to be christians, yet having no right to the name…..there are many who suppose they are converted but are not able to bear the test of character….sad, will it be when every man is rewarded according to his works, for those who cannot bear this test.
and / or
"each one of you may know for yourself that you have a living saviour…you need not stand where you say, i do not know whether i am saved…"
given the above, is it ever possible to be certain that one is not deceived?
manzuk
It used to be that the question was whether the Seventh-day Adventist church would allow someone to openly claim to be saved. I think it is allowed, but denied these days. (See Woodrow W Whidden II, “The Judgment and Assurance” … This is a technical discussion, so there remains a tinge of certainty with regard to salvation being forever not quite certain.)
Manzuk now brings to our attention another question, and that is, Can we who believe we are saved in every possibly definition of Christian salvation can be certain we are not deceived?
Of course not.
We can only live by faith in this regard.
It is like the lady who, after a presentation about how the Earth circles the sun, told the presenter that the Earth rests on a giant turtle. The presenter asked on what the turtle rested on, and she replied another turtle. And when asked what that turtle rested on, she simply said, It’s turtles all the way down.
It is faith start to finish.
I believe that faith, over time is a lot like curing concrete. The longer it cures, especially under water, the harder and stronger it gets.
The issue with the theory of salvation being almost but not quite certain (See “The Judgment and Assurance”) is that the uncertainty of salvation is sustained utterly by salvation’s presumed dependence on human frailty, while the claim of the Gospel is that our salvation is not a partnership, but an outright gift, and is something that is utterly not of ourselves.
Whether Genesis or Revelation and wherever the human plight is referenced in between, it is increasingly clear that God created humanity, God has fully and consistently taken full responsibility for the plight we find ourselves in, and without collaboration on our part has promised that we will not perish, but that we will live forever.
I sometimes wonder if the desperate-looking efforts to reduce Genesis to an actual event a short time ago isn’t in part a response to a need to sustain a misunderstanding of salvation as transactional using the currency of human affections to repurchase what many believe Genesis describes as having been lost during the garden experience of coming to know good and evil.
Genesis makes no provision for such a purchase plan. Rather, God's assurace is rather quite the opposite in that it is wholy unilateral on the Creator's part.
It is that about which faith makes real to me.
When we join the kingdom of God, as in pledging allegiance to any country, we join our fate to the fate of that nation. If I as a US citizen believe that my country will stand by me and defend me against threats foreign and domestic, I can safely use the word, "I am safe," or even "I am saved." It's a statement of faith that expresses confidence in my country, in its ability to deliver safety and to defend me.
(However, some might say, what if you mess up, Ed, and get thrown into jail right in your own country; are you safe or "saved", then, and how about the fact that your permanent address is Death Row in Leavenworth?) Well, so what? If I believe in my country, I know I will be judged faithfully, ultimately, though things may look bad right now; I know myself to be innocent, or to have erred innocently. I am "saved" and will be vindicated, even by a last-minute reprieve. So though I live on Death Row, I can still declare myself to be safe and saved.
In my own life, I see Christianity as my "home country" spiritually, and I trust that God will care for me spiritually, that I am safe (or saved). Can I renounce the Kingdom, burn my Bible and baptismal certificate, and pledge my allegiance to Islam, or the Hindu gods, or disbelieve in any faith-based form of organized social interaction at all? Yes, I can, I can be a hermit and a lone atheist if I choose, in which case I accept these alternate "Kingdoms" as my source of protection. They are my assurance, in place of Christ.
But it seems that so long as I profess to belong to the Kingdom of God, I can be very sure that I am in his care. I am safe. The statement is not a statement of absolute fact, but of absolute faith. From my experience in the Way of Jesus, I see no evidence that he will drop me out of his care nor that I have any incentive at all to renounce my citizenship with him. I am safe; I am saved.
"I will never forsake you, nor leave you". "He shall save His people from their sins". Now is the day of salvation. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation. By grace are ye saved through faith. Raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD.
Let no man steal your inheritance, by conjecture, artifice, or faithless existance. The GOD of LOVE can be trusted, He will deliver you to heavenly places. Praise God, Assurance is mine. Hallelujah.
"But it seems that so long as I profess to belong to the Kingdom of God, I can be very sure that I am in his care."
Will just a "profession" ensure salvation? Isn't there more to being a follower of Christ than a "profession"?
What can we offer God other than our earnest, intentional vow of fidelity that allows him full rein to produce fruit in our lives? What else can recommend us as eternal subjects of His kingdom?
Do we follow Jesus so we can be saved or because He has saved us?
If we follow Jesus largely to achieve the reward, how are we better than works-driven pagans who see their religion as an investment in fire insurance? I could not be a Christian at all if I were not motivated and attracted by the character and acts of Jesus…. That was the basis for my decision to be baptized; it is the basis for my decision to remain a Christian within the Church of believers. One of the greatest crosses I must bear, as a Christian, are the demands of those who use the faith as control mechanisms over other Adventist Christians, judging and critiquing their brothers and sisters with a constant pelting of distractive sallies demanding certain behaviors that by and large have no relationship with the fundamental character of Jesus and our relationship with him. Unfortunately out-of-context citations from the writings of Ellen White are often co-opted for that purpose…..
I totally agree. Using God or the Bible or Ellen as a means of trying to control other people is spiritual abuse. It is also a form of blasphemy because other people do not "belong" to us – they "belong" to God. It is working for the Lord like the Devil, who sought to usurp control from God.
The Christian life is about surrendering control of myself to Christ, not about using religion to control other people.
See Matthew 20:25-28, 1 Peter 5:1-4, etc.
TS, please reread the terms of understanding directly above your last comment. "By grace are ye saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ". Know for a certainty you are saved if you have accepted Jesus as the author and finisher of your faith. There is no other name that saves except the Lord Jesus Christ. BELIEVE AND SALVATION IS YOURS; JESUS CHRIST HAS COMPLETED THE TERMS of your SALVATION. Your only task is to BELIEVE, you can do nothing in and of yourself, because Jesus has completed your acceptance, Salvation is His free gift to mankind.
Glenn,
are you aware of "Universal Legal Justification" theory (don't be put off by its name) put forward by the "1888 Study Committee", led by Jack Sequeira and Robert Wieland?
This group of Adventist ministers have also studied by Jones and Waggoner said on the issue of salvation and seemed to have come to very similar views as you! Did you know that. I would think that is actually pretty exciting.
How I read Jones and Waggoner, without complicating it too much, is that we 'opt-out' of salvation – that we have 'presumptive salvation'. You rightly quote Waggoner when he talked about universalism. Another further good quote from Waggoner on the same:
God has wrought out salvation for every man, and has given it to him; but the majority spurn it and throw it away. The judgment will reveal the fact that full salvation was given to every man and that the lost have deliberately thrown away their birthright possession. (emphasis added)[i]
The famous German theologian Karl Barth had a similar view of salvation. But Jones and Waggoner predated him by about 70 years!
Welcome back, Steve. I have not seen you here for awhile. I'm hoping all is well with you.
I am no theologian, and that goes without saying–even though I was a theology major for a time.
But, while I was on that track, I came to believe that "heaven" and "hell" were pretty much irrelevant–that they were mostly used to manipulate people by frightening them into obediance or promising rewards beyond this life and world. It seemed to me that the message of Jesus was mostly that what had become Jewish tradition about a judgemental and vindictive God was all wrong. That, instead, God was love and loving and really just wanted his people to live fully and abundantly, without fear and bondage.
Somehow, in the context of sincere and fervent prayer, I got the impression that living joyfully and optimistically was rewarding in and of itself–that the message of Jesus was to put away guilt and sin. I got the feeling that this was the central message that Jesus was asking people to believe. "Just believe the good news I am conveying to you," seemed to be more the message than "Follow me and do as I say." Others, of course, will disagree. My take was that the message of Jesus was "You are not lost. You are not condemned. Believe me when I tell you that." That, far more than anything about his death being a substitute sacrificial lamb, or somesuch obscure symbolic notion.
Humankind had become so enamored of symbolism and tradition and magic that many of them could not be free of this wildly inaccurate perspective on life. It did not take long, it seems to me, for people to reinterpret the freedom message attributed to Jesus into something quite different–some new tradition of exclusivity and magic and a perpetual excuse for bondage and guilt. I'm afraid that I came to see formally organized Christianity as a perversion of that message.
Fortunately, it seems to me, there have always been some people who "got it." People for whom the essence of the message was love and freedom and the joy of living. People whose concept of God was not obscured by the abusive and manipulative tradition so common in Christianity, Judaism, and many other religions. People who could place confidence in a benevolent and loving God.
As a "nonbeliever," I am am not picking any fights with Almighty God the Loving Creator. I am rejecting the concepts of God as a treacherous, hateful, arbitrary, and vindictive taskmaster who demands worship and obediance and provides paradise as a reward for compliance and everlastingly burns in agony those who reject (or are unable to believe) in Him. Such a concept of God is unworthy of support by me or anyone else. That "the things that you're liable to read in the Bible, ain't necessarily so."
Joe,
I love you man, but your perception of the message of Jesus could not be more insidious in my opinion. It sounds wonderful and is partially true—which makes it all the more insidious.
His message was equal parts "You are not lost. You are not condemned. Believe me when I tell you that. Just believe the good news I am conveying to you," and “Follow me and do as I say." It isn’t an either/or; it’s not more one than the other.
Jesus also said that He is the vine and we are the branches, and that without Him we can’t do anything. So He did for us and does in us what we couldn’t and/or wouldn’t. (That’s what Paul’s writings are basically about.) Why the attempts to cherry pick it?
Stephen Foster,
If you can put out of your mind what you believe Joe believes, and also what you believe and simply read John 3 and Revelation 14, and then do a concordance review of the word saved in scripture ( https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=saved&qs_version=KJV&limit=250 ), and then go back and reread John 3 and Revelation 14 and repeat the cycle a few times, you will likely come to the conclusion that the Gospel of Jesus is independent of the call to follow or any need to do anything in order to 'not perish but have eternal life.'
Or not.
And whatever the result of this search and review experience may be for you, it is possible that the Holy Spirit will not look at your differently and that the Gospel will not need to be altered to enable God's ability and willingness, indeed, commitment to make sure you do not perish, but have eternal life.
Of cousre, it is possible that you really do hold your own salvation in your own hands and that your personal salvation is truly totally up to you and is determined by what you can learn and what having learned you can do to meet some minimum expectation by God for those he will choose to save. If so, what is that minimum expectation to qualify for personal salvation? That was my question not quite 50 years ago when I first did the concordinance search of scripture for the word Saved. That is when I had made Pascal's wager (Google the term) without knowing I had, and decided I should inform myself as to what is required for meeting God's minimum requirement for personal salvation. It has been quite a life, living without the net of such a list to fall back on. Pure grace is amazing.
Know oh gentle peruser, that when studying John 3 one must not stop at verse 17. One ignores verses 18-21 to one's own detriment.
If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his (or her) cross and follow me.
Did I fail to mention that one should study Revelation 14 from the very first verse all the way to the very last verse?
Something tells me Bill, that you missed the “…we can’t do anything” which includes following Him and doing what He says. Perhaps you might reread that post again. (“…can’t do anything” means “can do nothing;” which is precisely what Jesus actually said.)
All we can really do is believe Him, and we can barely do that. (The faith of a mustard seed suffices.) He will, and will have to, do the rest. This does not alter/dilute Jesus’ message—including “follow Me and do as I say”—which Joe tries to do.
Jacobus Hamenszoon (aka Arminius) taught the concept of prevenient grace. In simple English this means that even the grace to choose to believe is a gift from God.
Thanks Stephen for reminding me of your final sentence. You and Jim make very helpful comments assuring us that our salvation is not up to us. That really is a great point.
I might not have "Pascal's wager" quite right, but it seems to me that it involves being unwilling to risk eternal agony and/or loss of eternal ecstacy in paradise–and choosing, instead, to do whatever was needed to avoid those outcomes. The other side of that wager, it seems to me, was the acceptance of some sort of limits on freedom and living fully in the present life. Gambling away the prospect of living our present real life abundantly and well for the possibility of something in the unknowable future does not seem like such a great bet–especially since betting on the afterlife outcome might not be any guarantee of the payoff. In some sense, making that wager, as a wager, might guarantee exactly the wrong outcome. Maybe Pascal's wager is an example of "doing the right thing for the wrong reason," or something.
Not that any of this should be an excuse to be "wicked" or "evil." On the contrary, a life of avarice and malice and exploitation is no way to live. One can focus on the beautiful and the constructive, and on careful consideration of others in ways that are fulfilling and rewarding. Abundant life. As long as one values honesty and beauty and friends and generosity more than mere gratification and possessions, one can live the kind of life that is worth living–without any concern about some future beyond the grave. And life is, I think, much richer without spending it imagining a future in heaven or hell and perpetually worrying about which it is. In my opinion, the future reward or punishment is entirely irrelevant. I do whatever it is I decide to do, after carefully weighing the potential consequences for myself and others in this life. And I take responsibility for what I decide to do. I consider the prospects of unintended consequences, and do the best I can. Sometimes I err. When I do, I address the consequences as appropriately as I can.
I like living in the real world of this lifetime–which I am betting is the only life I will ever have. How sad it would be to waste it on wickedness or excessive efforts at holiness to gain some imagined reward or to avoid an imagined eternity of suffering.
Brother Joe,
I for one have little doubt that you have figured the way to live a happy, full, and abundant life; at least what works for you.
Of course, it is my view that many of the values by which you make your choices and live your life came from your ‘upbringing,’ as they say. There have been decidedly Christian values that have presumably been inalterably instilled in you; and you had nothing to do with the circumstances of your birth and upbringing.
What of those few individuals who have had no such values instilled in them? All things considered, are they likely to make the wise decisions you have made? What of those who don’t exercise the good judgment that “a life of avarice and malice and exploitation is no way to live,” and who opt not to “focus on the beautiful and the constructive, and on careful consideration of other ways that are fulfilling and rewarding.” Thankfully grace is even more abundant than are ‘mistakes.’
Of course my take is that the God of heaven has blessed you with favor and protection and opportunity and intelligence; and that you owe Him a debt of gratitude for every breath you breathe and every time your heart pumps blood—and that He has granted you the freedom to do whatever you want to do with all He has given you.
What I’d like to know is why you think that Christians, who are “free indeed,” and are not wondering or worrying about going to hell, are any less free than you believe that you are. Did you realize that you can be a Christian without even thinking about hell? Do you believe that one can be a Christian without even thinking about hell? (Is/was this a fear proposition with you?)
Joe,
Thanks for illuminating Pascal’s Wager. There is surely more than my rather simple look ahead. I think you properly understand the implications, including the prospect of guaranteeing the wrong outcome. I was not coming from that angle, and sure see the implications of ‘doing all the right things for the wrong reason.’
My simple approach back in the day was to assess my life in the church v an imagined life free to follow a more hedonistic path, with the former leading to an eternity and the second being the sum of life’s potential.
Hedonism, I read, is about subtracting the pain from the pleasure and looking for the net greatest pleasure.
I figured eternity v 70 years and came to prefer eternity. I reviewed my Seventh-day Adventist life of 22 years and concluded that on the chance there is nothing after 70 years, 48 more years of life as a Seventh-day Adventist is not much of a hedonistic compromise in exchange for knowing I was taking a roll of the dice on coming up with eternity. I think that is a similar rationale that Pasqual used at least in part.
But when I came face to face with Grace, I was surprised looking back. I immediately abandoned any sense that I was compromising my life in the least. There was a sincere sense of relief, interpreted pretty much hedonistically as sensations of pleasure, and I know the ambiguity of the various terms here. Read the word pleasure and Grace is not the first word to come to mind, though once Grace has worked its way deeply into our mind, pleasure becomes much more comprehensive. Or something like that.
Grace ended the notion of needing to do anything to be caught up in eternity as the object of God’s love.
I’ll not urge you to change your bet that the only life you will ever have is this one. We are all making bets. And the bet we each make does not change what the outcome is it seems. Testimony is where we learn about … eternity. Your testimony enriches us all. An atheist is as faith dependent as any Christian or for that matter any other spiritual follower.
I am really attracted to your summary sentence … “How sad it [life] would be to waste it on wickedness or excessive efforts at holiness to gain some imagined reward or to avoid an imagined eternity of suffering.”
Joe: 'Welcome back, Steve. I have not seen you here for awhile. I'm hoping all is well with you.'
Thanks Joe. With the website changes I couldn't log on for several months. Funny enough, my new computer wouldn't let me but when I tried my old computer it would. Go figure – I'm not a techi.
Joe, i never experienced true freedom until i accepted my Lord Jesus. i was always fearful of being "found out" in my hedonistic quests. Lying and cheating to cover up my sinful practices. i had every opportunity to achieve
success, prestige, recognition, and i gloried in the approbation and praise. But it wasn't enough. i sensed that my lifestyle was causing me no great lasting feeling good. i didn't seek to hurt anyone, but was hurting myself, usurping my life's life flow, physically and mentally. i was raised by a great Christian mother. She taught me the basics of Christianity. And some 40 plus years ago, i had a traumatic experience that threatened my life, and i sensed the Holy Spirit speakng to me, not audibly so others could hear, but speaking to my "soul". A miracle occurred, as the Holy Spirit convicted me of my crimes against GOD and humanity. i accepted my Saviour's grace and His love overflowed my being. i immediately felt the shakles fall that bound my soul in darkness, and i've never been fearful or concerned for my life since. i truly believe the Holy Spirit lives with me every day, and uses me to share His love with every one i meet. So it isn't either or. With Jesus, we belong to Him. True joy in living without the shakles that bind us to darkness, egotism, and wasteful living, are ours in JESUS CHRIST. JESUS is the HOLY FATHER OF LOVE.
Joe, in every word you write, you display the fruit of the SPIRIT, you are,although not recognizing it, or acknowledging it by faith, by your display of love toward your fellowman, you are a disciple of Jesus. Jesus is the planter of the seed you became, and you are HIS.
Sorry for the error. I meant "were in panic mode."
Dear generous brother Earl. Yours is a wonderful and welcoming spirit. I get the feeling that we are on the same team, regardless of how we explain our experiences.
I do agree with Stephen (in something posted above this) that many of my values were learned in my family as I grew up. For example, I learned not to lie or cheat. As I matured, I found that honesty had to extend beyond not lying to others. I learned to (at least) make a strong effort to be honest with myself–to try to perceive things (including myself) from the perspectives of others. I learned that what seemed true to me was not necessarily what seemed true to others. I learned that there was some value in seeking neutral fact through methods designed to ensure objectivity, to the extent possible.
But I also learned that not everyone valued truth or fidelity as much as I did. I learned that it was neither necessary nor desirable to reveal everything I thought I knew about something, and that timing and context were important. I learned that there were times when my best course was to accept responsibility for whatever I had done without hurting someone by revealing the details to them. In fact, my second (and current) wife taught me that lesson very well. When I confessed to her some infidelities, she told me point blank not to try to load the responsibility for my errors onto her–that I bore responsibility for my own behavior.
Even so, I appreciate the eventual honesty of my first wife in revealing what was very painful to me at the time–but in that case, the truth did set us free quite literally. We went our separate ways and both lived better lives than we could have lived together.
I cannot claim to have descended very far into lying and cheating to cover up sinful practices, but I did find that there are real-world consequences for engaging in what some would call "sinful practices." Consenting adults are not always as free as they seem or claim to be. Things can get complicated and destructive pretty quickly if one takes advantage of all the opportunities that happen to come one's way. And yet, of the few regrets I have, I suppose the most enduring are about some of the available opportunities not taken. I really do not regret the experiences of intimacy and the pleasures and lessons learned by getting really close to other people. However we came to be, our bodies, including our brains, are outfitted to procreate and to relish copulation. There is no doubt that many social sanctions have developed that help to keep us from killing each other over what comes naturally. As in other matters, good judgement can help to keep us alive. Getting oneself into situations that demand lying and cheating as a defense can get very old very quickly.
Near death experiences can be revealing. About 20 years ago, I was in an airplane over eastern Borneo when it went into a dive from which it seemed very unlikely to recover. I felt a remarkable wave of peaceful tranquility–while those around me we in panic mode, screaming and praying to various gods and fighting over the oxygen masks. I felt fulfilled and free from fear, and that feeling has endured. I do not know why.
Bill,
Thanks for your comments. You surely have as good a concept of Pascal's wager as I do, if not better. I think the critical aspect is betting on whether this life is all there is or we are deciding on where we will be throughout eternity.
Another aspect is what difference the choice makes in how we live the lives we currently have. I decided while I was still a committed adventist Christian that the road of righteousness by faith through grace was the authentic Christian way, and that life as a Christian was attractive as a joyful and honest pathway worth taking. By that time I was certainly committed to being a Christian, but less committed to being an adventist–as I did not see anything about true Christianity that needed to be exclusive to adventism. I saw Christianity as a good way of living.
As I went out into living life in the world, not for any hedonistic reasons–just growing up and seeing more of the world–the world became larger. My concept of the world grew. Especially with regard to information about the age of the earth and of life on it. I saw for myself evidence contrary to the 6000 year window I had been taught. I also met sincere Christian people who did not cling to the YEC scenario, and even an Episcopal Army Chaplain who did not reject evolution as an explanation of origins (he just figured God had a hand in it in some way we did not understand).
Fast forward to coming out of the military and getting married and going back to school. I went to a community college and later a Methodist university where I took nondenominational religion courses. Along the way, I took courses in geography and geology, philosophy, psychology, biology, etc., in which the evidence was largely examined from an objective and secular perspective. Even so, I remained in the church–even though doubts escalated. In fact, I encountered many other people from adventist and other fundamentalist backgrounds whose doubts were growing too.
By the time I was 30 years old, I found that I could no longer honestly agree with some of the SDA fundamental beliefs. I was no longer very attached to the church. Life was no longer simple. I had gone through a divorce (from the girl I began dating in academy), and I entered the world of adult single people–this on a UC campus (Davis) in the late 1960s and early 1970s. While my life was not exactly wildly hedonistic, there were intense and intimate serious relationships and joyful romps, and some substance use and abuse. There was a lot of self examination and wondering about the direction of my life and resetting goals.
Then I met and married my current wife (more than 40 years ago). She had two children from her former marriage. I had an instant family! I finished grad school and moved to a research post-doc job at University of Washington. And, yadda, yadda, yadda, I have had a rewarding life, free of the confinement of the church community, and without regret about that. It is not as if I went off into some sort of rebellious hedonistic wicked life. Mine has been an honest and productive life, not motivated by seeking to win heaven or to shun hell–just living constructively the one life I believe I have.