An Earthquake and a Prophecy
by Carmen Holland
Seventh-day Adventism is classified by historians and sociologists as an apocalyptic Protestant Christian tradition. Apocalyptic means focused on "End Things," i.e., as in the "End Is Near", the "Last Generation," and similar expressions. Is it not correct to state that Daniel and Revelation are traditional Adventism's favorite Biblical books?
We used to be called an apocalyptic Christian sect. In a strict sense and generally speaking, we still are. However, we also have, over more than a hundred years, matured and institutionalized, so that more formally, we often are referred to as an apocalyptic institutionalized sect which continues to incorporate a fundamentalist ethos. The recent election of a highly sectarian, openly fundamentalist General Conference president has just highlighted this characterization. His initiative to distribute copies of Ellen White's Great Controversy simply confirms his orientation.
Traditional Adventism continues to be, at its heart, apocalyptic in focus and orientation. This is where my prophecy comes in.
In the spirit of traditional Adventism, I would like to prophesize. I predict that, over a period of six months, the Adventist Review and Adventist World will publish, on at least four occasions, in some form either by itself or in connection with other "signs," statements to the effect that the recent major devastating earthquake in Japan is another sign that the "End is Near."
It will not make any difference that Japan is the most earthquake prone country in the world and that it sits on geologic plates where earthquakes are frequently generated. No, this particular earthquake, and the tsunami that it generated, will be viewed as a "Sign of the End!"
There, it is on the record. It is clear and unambiguous. Let's see if the author of this prophecy is a true or false prophet.
It is my hope that this prophecy will be disconfirmed and that its author will be declared a false prophet. On the other hand, I will not be surprised if the prophecy is confirmed.
Comments
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 14th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
We can probably be assured that some evangelists have already pronounced that it was a "sign of the end." Each time some natural disaster occurs it is uusally referred to in this way and around the world, Adventists are most likely being warned this is another sign "pointing to the end."
Of course, those "signs of the end" have been occuring quite reqularly since 34 A.D. Wasn't the Lisbon Earthquake, some 250 years ago preached by new SDAs in this way?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 14th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hi Ervin,
I think one only has to see what has happened in the last year to realise things are intensifying.
Remember that all these things are like birth pangs, the contractions get closer and closer together, and more severe just before the time comes to give birth.
I think the problem here with Adventism is they have been crying wolf for so long, that now things are finally happening, people have grown numb to them, and will turn off.
Getting told that the world is going to end tomorrow for 177 years can grow quite stale after a while.
Nath
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 14th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
I thought we would have to wait at least a few days for some SDA evangelist to make my prophecy come to pass. Not so.
An article entitled "Stirred But Not Shaken A Reflection on the Japanese Earthquake" written by Shawn Boonstra, the former speaker/director of It Is Written, will appear in the March 15 issue of the Adventist Review.
To quote him: "Right now the world's attention is glued to Japan . . . As with the other supersized disasters to have battered our planet in recent years, the visceral impact of a 9.0 earthquake will likely have a very short half-life. But it's not supposed to. "So you also," Jesus said, "when you see all these things, know that it is near-at the doors! . . . The spiritual significance of these larger-than-life disasters-and the accelerating frequency with which they're happening-is eluding most of the human race."
We need only three more of these kinds of reactions for me to be proven a true prophet. Do you think that will come to pass? I can't wait.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 14th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Ervin,
Once you become a true Prophet, can you then please prophesy against 1844 and the overkill of EGW so we can get this church on track and moving towards the future.
That would be great.
Thankyou
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 14th, 2011 laffal says:
Sorry cornerstone111, whether you like it or not, you'll be living with 1844 & EGW for a lot longer then you'd like. It doesn't matter how much time and effort you put into it. There are those of us who have not conflict with 1844 and EGW. Have no need nor reason to switch sides. Sorry.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Laffal,
Then if that is the case I have a prophecy. The church is doomed to die in most of the first world, why all the other mainstream protestant churches continue to grow.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 laffal says:
Cornerstone111,
Well my friend… that remains to be seen. I've never been one to take numbers into account when it comes to growth and the church. If your prophecy comes true, which it could very well appear to be doing, but appearances really amount to very little. Anyways, that would be on me. But if not, where does that put you, with the Deuteronomy 18:20-22 crowd. I'll take my chances where I am. There's the church of which Christ is the head, and there is Babylon, at the end of the day, you and I will be in one of these 2 camps. It's a Biblical no-brainer, those who remain faithful to the Lord are always outnumbered by those who don't for whatever the reason.
The SDA church may not be what you think it should be, with all of your reasonings. But you can be sure that the SDA church is not what Christ would have it to be either. Who's concern should I consider first? Another no-brainer. And to Erv's point, there's been a lot of Peter crying wolf, when it comes to the signs of the end declarations. But that does not mean that this tragedy in Japan is just one more event in a sequence of events unfolding in time. It's not time to be flippant about those things that Jesus, Himself, set before us in Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Erv could also be right in his prophecy, but at the end of the day does it make the statement that these are signs of the end wrong, or insignificant? Or will we be like the town folk who have grown tired of Peter crying wolf. The last I heard, the wolf did come, and Peter was left to himself!
Peace
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 Preston says:
Matthew 24: 44. What could be clearer?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Here’s yet another prophecy that is hereby fulfilled in our…uhm, reading: 2 Peter 3:3, 4. Just how often does a prophet get to fulfill prophecy him/herself? Pretty neat trick, I’d say.
It’s true that Japan is very earthquake prone; due, obviously, to geological realities. How relevant is that?
Besides, Matthew 24: 7, Mark 13: 8, Luke 21:11 all make reference to “divers places.” Anyone care to deny this as well?
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 pat travis says:
Stephen,
Just how often does a prophet get to fulfill prophecy him/herself?
I suggest that is exactly what happened concerning the end date of "1844." Other than Edson& EGW saying it had been fulfilled with an entry into the MHP, how would you show it as a literal fulfillment on earth?
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 dschram says:
Dawn Schram https://www.hymndescants.com
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=earthquakes+over+the+last+10+years
This link shows the number and magnitude of earthquakes increasing in the last 10 years.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 15th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
2 Peter 3:8:
"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."
Was the earthquake in China only a few years ago that kiled 500,000 given as much attention? We have only recorded world-wide earthquakes for a few hundred years, and even less, seismologically. We cannot know of other, possibly major earthquakes in the distant past when there was no communication for months, or never, for certain world areas. Is it a "sign of the times" when there are earthquakes in the known "ring of fire"? What is so spectuacular? These happen many times, and will likely continue.
On March 15th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
For a complete history of world earthquakes, simply Google "earthquakews" and there are lists of the world's greatest and est. magnitude and deaths.
There was an earthquake in Sendai, Japan in 869 A.D. mag. 8.6. And in Iran 893 A.D., and in Aleppo, Syria in 1138 A.D. with est. 230,000 dead. There have been earthquakes recorded as early as several hundred years B.C.
On March 15th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
After reading Bonnstra's article, we should all be content: we Adventists KNOW exactly what all this means. We can be smug because our poor neighbors do not realize WHY these earthquakes occur. But we, alone, can supply the answers and are here ready to give them. Earthquakes are in reality, good news, because it means Jesus is coming very soon. Don't worry if you house is washed away, or your family has all died, but Jesus is coming should make you rejoice.
That's a quick synopsis of His article. The Review is certainly pandering to its conservative readers. All others are in the dark.
On March 15th, 2011 reinosaa says:
Ervin , claiming the gift of prophecy ! I am waiting for the day when Elaine will also make the same claim . have fun !
On March 15th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Why? Only one prophet per blog. Ervin is doing a swell job already and needs no help.
We have probably been around Adventism long enough to have seen many preachers predict that many events were signs of the "last days." Some, even before our time, going back to WW I. Nothing new under the sun. Stuff happens.
On March 15th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. [Matt 16:1-3]
On March 15th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
It would be very helpful if Mr. Hammond would explain the relevance of his quotatiion of Jesus' words about weather forecasting to the present topic.
On March 15th, 2011 pat travis says:
Earthquakes have occured since Christ's ascension. So unless one is prepared to tell us why this earthquake was specifically "allowed/or caused" by God then we can but say we are 1 day closer than yesterday to Christ's coming in the "big picture" rather than His "immediate return."
My peace I give, not as the world giveth…
Peace and prayers for the afflicted,
pat
On March 15th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Dr Taylor's newly aquired 'prophetic' powers came too little too late. Would it not have been better if he predicted the earthquake itself! After all, he been an expert prophet and all!
So Dr Taylor, why waste your powers on such trivial small-time predictions like what some Trad's will say? Tell us Sir, when will the next earthquake or natural disaster occur? Or maybe the next Wall Street crash? Please send a few able progressives to those predictable volatile dangerous disaster areas to preach the progressive gospel. If its Third World then voila! They're an easy lot for you to progressives to convince as progressives allude that even God the Holy Spirit can't teach them enough, at least in terms of what you progressives brag to offer.
In keeping with the sentiment of this blog, I will also like to make a prediction of my own. I predict that Cornerstone111, Elaine Nelson and pat travis, not forgetting RonCorson, will continue to faithfully follow the prophet Taylor…
Three down. One to go. Wow! …And I'm not even a prophet!
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Trevor,
In keeping with the sentiment of this blog, I will also like to make a prediction of my own. I predict that Cornerstone111, Elaine Nelson and pat travis, not forgetting RonCorson, will continue to faithfully follow the prophet Taylor… Wow! …And I'm not even a prophet!
mate, I don't even know Ervin Taylor, and I think you better read my first post.
I do understand what Ervin is saying here. It was only the other year that a Church member of our tiny little church of 18(did I mention it was once a great church of 270 until TSDA with 1844 and the misuse EGW wrecked it?) dropped off a box full of old Sign of theTimes magazines. I grabbed a couple, one was from 1980, and it was all about how the world was going to end very soon, because of the Cold War, and it also included other signs that were happening at the time.
This is what Ervin is saying, every event that takes place is a sign to SDA's that Christ is only just around the corner. It has happened in every generation since the movement began, and will continue to happen.
Eventually crying wolf will lead people to relax and turn off, and then the end will come suddenly, when they are not ready for it.
Nath
On March 15th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Re: "It would be very helpful if Mr. Hammond would explain the relevance of his quotatiion of Jesus' words about weather forecasting to the present topic."
Well, déjà vu! Dr Taylor! Remarkable how the Scribes and Pharisees couldn't figure this out either! They so ably bragged about discerning predictable weather patterns yet could not discern the sign of the Messiah, even with Jesus hinting about His death and then His resurrection on the third day. The verses relate to those who are able to interpret a sign in a natural occurrence and make predictions based on this but who aren't able to discern the signs of the times. That's why God has the SDA Trad's to point mankind to the hope of Jesus' return: to encourage them to look up in hope rather than down in despair. Hope in the Saviour who is Christ the Lord!
Knowing that the tectonic plates in this region are volatile and that Japan is high risk as a result, the earthquake and subsequent disaster is most definitely still alarming and just can't be brushed off lightly especially when many souls may have went to Christless graves. Not forgetting the terrifying experience of losing loved ones and facing the uncertainty of it all. These 'are' still signs that Jesus spoke of reminding us of His return. Many, like the Scribes and Pharisees, may see the signs of weather patterns and make quite accurate predictions yet can't still see the signs of the times that Jesus spoke of.
[2Pet 3:3-7] Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
[Luke 21:25-28] “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
On March 15th, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student
There is something called " balance " The message of Jesus is always " Near at the door but be patient " James 5 :7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. What Jesus is trying to say is Be Patient , it is going to be more than what you think . If we read the bible carefully we will see that there is always a balance , as someone quoted before " a day for God is like a thousand years " so could Jesus come in a thusand years ? It is possible . We have no idea . One of the problems that we have is that because we only look at the nearness , we tend to forget about those who suffer and we don't minister to the needs of those who are in great need , I believe that in Mathew when Jesus put some to his right and some to his left and ask to those on the left why did they not visit him , feed him , etc . I believe many of those are going to be Adventists , because we are so worried " storing food and thinking about persecution " that we forget about helping the poor and live the gospel in a practical way .
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
trevor,
That's why God has the SDA Trad's to point mankind to the hope of Jesus' return
That is absolute rubbish mate. I am not a TSDA, and I fully endorse Christs soon coming.
Desmond Ford also has many great sermons on Christs soon return which you can DL for free at www.desford.org.au
There is some truth to what Elaine and Ervin say, there has always been earthquakes, wars, famines(though this year is the beginning of a global one), false Christs etc.. these things are all the beginnings of the birth pains. But it is not until we see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the Prophet Daniel that the end is upon us.
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Sorry cornerstone111, whether you like it or not, you'll be living with 1844 & EGW for a lot longer then you'd like. It doesn't matter how much time and effort you put into it. There are those of us who have not conflict with 1844 and EGW. Have no need nor reason to switch sides. Sorry.
I am sorry to inform you Laffal that there has already been a lot of changes in the Church in the last 30 years, and it continues. Many of the so called Traditional views have been shifting. Have you seen the new series RevelationHope brought out by Jon Paulien and Graeme Bradford? It is 99% in line with Des Ford's teachings on Revelation. The church has changed its stance on a lot of things, and does not see eye to eye anymore with the early Church fathers and EGW.
You can check out 3 small clips here:
144,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5oqOAYspqQSatanic Trinity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiencXqObkU
1,000 years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB0MMWAu-Jg
Whether you like it or not, change is happening , but we need to wait for the old dinosaurs to die in the desert before we can take this church in to the Holy land.
Christ is the truth.
On March 15th, 2011 Preston says:
On March 15th, 2011 RonCorson says:
Trevor wrote:
In keeping with the sentiment of this blog, I will also like to make a prediction of my own. I predict that Cornerstone111, Elaine Nelson and pat travis, not forgetting RonCorson, will continue to faithfully follow the prophet Taylor…
Three down. One to go. Wow! …And I'm not even a prophet!
Clearly you are not a prophet as I don't follow prophet Taylor since his prediction had no element of prophecy to it really. to predict Adventists will do what they have always done is not really much of a prediction.
Trevor's prediction on the other hand is simply completely wrong,
PS I had to laugh at the one post showing that there have been an increase in earthquakes over the last 10 years. Moving geologic occurrences into a decade of time the brilliance of statistical manipulation or as we like to call it junk science. The USGS has a paper for those kind of people telling them that there has in fact been no increase in the frequency of power of earthquakes over the last few centuries. But after all why let facts interfere with things…that is after all the Adventist way it appears.
On March 15th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
@RonCorson
RE: PS I had to laugh at the one post showing that there have been an increase in earthquakes over the last 10 years.
Do you have any 'non-junk' science that shows a decrease?
Happiness!
T
On March 15th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Erv, et al,
Here is a question that may shed light, so to speak, on whether or not conservatives and liberals can find enough common ground to peacefully coexist and work together: Is Jesus coming back to take us to Heaven with Him (John 14:1-3), or not?
I would submit that those who don’t believe that we have enough information to render an intelligent response to that question are simply not Adventists at all (though they may be nominal SDA’s). Needless to say, those who say “no” to that question are not Christians at all (since Christians believe what Jesus said/says).
What say you all?
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 15th, 2011 laffal says:
Cornerstone111,
What you call change, I call fracture. Don't count the dinosaurs out just yet. Now mind you, I'm not the standardized tradionalist as it is discribed here on AT. But yet, I think it is quite premature to say that the change you speak of will sweep the church into the "Holy land" after the dinasaurs have be moved out of the way. The last time I heard, God alone can see around corners. I trust that He will lead, guide, and direct the honest hearted person will will humble themselves and follow Him.
Peace
On March 15th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
RE: Stephen Foster's question – Is Jesus coming back to take us to Heaven with Him (John 14:1-3), or not?
This pertinent question in my view is answered in Revelation 22:1-21NIV. What a profound read it is! I would rather trust Jesus' promises anytime than the mere words of mortals. "I am coming soon" is mentioned three times in this passage further emphasizing His soon return. Are the Prog's saying that Jesus got it wrong?
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.
And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
On March 15th, 2011 Tom says:
The end is likened to a harvest. to sure there will be two. One harvest is bound for glory and the other bound for perdition. It's all there in the part of Revelation 14 AFTER the three angels message.
Question: what is the best indicator the end is near? a) the intensity and frequency of bad weather or b)the ripening of the two harvests?
Footnote to cornerstone: You remind me of a dog gnawing on a bone after all the meat is chewed off with your fixation of arguing about 1844. Okay you say everything would be just find in Adventism if 1844 and the IJ were just tossed. Me thinks you would find some other bone to gnaw on and gnaw and gnaw. Pleasant chews!
On March 15th, 2011 reinosaa says:
Tom , You are right on reminding us about the two harvests , i believe it is crucial to understand that . I also see the connection of earthquakes and other natural disasters to let us know about the nearness of Christ coming , at the same the prophecies are better understood when they are fulfilled . In Luke 21 we read 8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.
Mathew 24 and mark 13 speaking about these things say that " there are birth pains " . Personally , I haven't done a study if earthquakes have increased or decreased in the past centuries , Ron said that earthquakes have not increased in the past centuries , well I am not as old as him so I don't know .does some one has any data on that ?
We should be more concern in living out the gospel because the end may come sooner than we think . And this events help us to realize how fragile we are , I am sure many of these people in Japan were not expecting that their lives were going to end that way . So let's get right with God now so we won't have fear for the future .
PS . Tom , I would make you a prophet for the wise words you said but Ervin already claimed that gift , sorry ,
blessings,
Pastor Reinosa
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Tom,
Footnote to cornerstone: You remind me of a dog gnawing on a bone after all the meat is chewed off with your fixation of arguing about 1844. Okay you say everything would be just find in Adventism if 1844 and the IJ were just tossed. Me thinks you would find some other bone to gnaw on and gnaw and gnaw. Pleasant chews!
You are wrong my friend, I think Adventism has a lot to offer, but 1844 and the misuse of EGW has left the church crippled.
As I have stated, if the church got rid of 1844 and the misuse of EGW, I would be on fire 100% to lead as many people as possible to the church. The problem is, I cannot do that why the church chooses to remain ignorant to a problem that really needs to be dealt with.
I have no other gripe with Adventism than with 1844, misuse of EGW, and perfectionism. I will always speak out against these things, because I am called to uphold the truth.
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Laffal,
I to am not a liberal like they explain here on AT. I believe in a literal creation in 7 days, I believe Noah's flood was a global event. But I do not believe an 1844 IJ, and I know one does not even need EGW to study the bible and know Christ (but for those that found christ through her, that is good, but just know she is fallible, not the bible, or the Third Testament, and she got many things wrong).
On March 15th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Ervin,
I must admit, 'State of emergency' seems to be becoming a popular word around the world.
I think things are speeding up towards the end mate.
On March 15th, 2011 Tom says:
Cornerstone
So 1844 is the obstacle that keeps you from trying to bring people into the church. This seems to have taken on a bigger than life focus with you. You need to let go of it man. I sure wouldn't let any one or many things I may have an axe to grind with the church keep me from asking someone to join. But as I said, my bigger focus is on leading them to Christ, not swelling the head count on the church books.
Could it be that one of the reasons our church is growing faster in other parts of the world is that they aren't bogged down with all the dogma and debate that fascinates so many Adventists here in the states. I'm not so sure I would be doing some a favor by bringing them into such a hostile climate.
On March 16th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Tom,
Could it be that one of the reasons our church is growing faster in other parts of the world is that they aren't bogged down with all the dogma and debate that fascinates so many Adventists here in the states.
As I have stated already, ALL denominations are growing rapidly in the Third World, the SDA being one of the smaller denominations having progress over there.
The Third World are desperate, all they have is God to rely on, so every religions call is getting answered. Look at Benny Hinn, he can go there and draw a crowd of 1 million people a night who are hoping for a miracle.
I'm not so sure I would be doing some a favor by bringing them into such a hostile climate.
Yes, I agree fully with you here. I suggest you read Desmond Ford's Biography by Milton Hook to realise why the Church is like it is today.
My friend, I have a problem with 1844 IJ, when it is one of the FB to join the church. How can I lead people to a church that holds a belief that got proven wrong 30 years ago, and has continually tried to cover it up?
As long as the 1844 IJ is part of what you must accept to join the church and come to Christ, I will always have a problem with it. It needs to be taken out of our 28 FB.
God Bless mate
On March 16th, 2011 laffal says:
Cornerstone111,
I've not said that EGW was infallible. At least no less then you or I. And I would venture to say that your template for what's right vs. what's wrong is not all Bible. You've got your favorite list of preachers and writers like the rest of us. And I've lived long enough to know that we takes sides in a fight / debate because of what we perceive / like / agree with, not because of what we truly understand. What are you fighting for? Where's Christ in your insistent efforts to attack EGW, 1844, and the IJ? There are honest people who believe in her gift and these teaching, of which I am one. Yet, how can you get me to see Christ more clearly, as I so need to, by bashing what I believe to be truth? This kind of rancor is what has caused the SDA church more trouble then anything else, for over a 100 years. We're so fractured we can't begin to come together to figure out what Christ has called us to do, together (unity), much less accomplish what He called us to be and do. And you can believe that Satan is at the head of this kind of work. It's call the accuser of the brethren. The surest way to find his devilish majesty is in the midst of division and strife.
Peace
On March 16th, 2011 RonCorson says:
Trevor wrote:
RE: PS I had to laugh at the one post showing that there have been an increase in earthquakes over the last 10 years.
Do you have any 'non-junk' science that shows a decrease?
Sure there are numerous 10 years periods with little earthquake activity. After all it does take time for the plates to build up pressure and then after it is released there can be many years of no activity. The point is in geologic terms 10 years is insignificant…meaningless whether increases or decreases in such short periods of time. The idea that you judge things by the most current 10 or 50 years is simply foolishness. But clearly scientific thinking is lacking in certain areas of Christianity and of course in the Adventist church.
On March 16th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Laffal,
I've not said that EGW was infallible.
Can you point out to me some of her errors then?
I laugh when TSDA say EGW was not infallible, but then believe she got nothing wrong.
Where's Christ in your insistent efforts to attack EGW, 1844, and the IJ?
The reason I attack these things is for Christ and truth. EGW and her writings have taken the place of Christ and scripture in the majority of SDA churches, 1844 and the IJ steals from what Christ did on the Cross and at His ascenscion when he said "It is finished".
There are honest people who believe in her gift and these teaching, of which I am one.
I have no doubt about this Laffal. But the Traditional view should not be the rule of faith for membership into the Church. Having EGW and 1844 in the FB is wrong, they should not be a test of membership. And as I have pointed out before, the 28 FB were only formed to get Des Ford and any other scholar, Pastor or Lay Person out of the church who did not agree with it. The church owes all of them an apology, it did not act Christian at all the way it handled the situation. Even the Roman Catholic Church can admit when it has done wrong an apologize, but not the SDA Church, which seems to have all the signs of Laodicea today.
Taking EGW and 1844 out of the FB should not effect the church if it is truly built on Christ alone. And it should not affect the TSDA, they can still read EGW writings to their hearts content, but it does not affect the entire church.
And you can believe that Satan is at the head of this kind of work. It's call the accuser of the brethren. The surest way to find his devilish majesty is in the midst of division and strife.
I think the devil loves Traditionalism for what it has done to the church and its search for truth.
The Church needs to start making amends by apologizing to these people:
1.Albertson, Ivan, Teacher: Central California Conference
2.Bailey, Mike, Pashr: Oregon Conference
3.Barren, Grahem, Pastor: New Zealand
4.Bassch, Eric, Pastor: South Africa
5.Bassch, Eugene, Colporteur: South Africa
6.Bean, Harvey and Marlie, Teachers: Oregon Conference
7.Broad, Ray, Teacher: New Zealand
8.Broomhaul, Rod, Pastor: North Queensland, Australia
9.Bruington, Dean, Pastor: Iowa Conference
10.Campbell, Francis: President South African Union
11.Cannaday, Ron, Arizona
12.Cary, Tom, Pastor: South Africa
13.Chambers, Joe, Pastor : Western Australia
14.Champaign, Gary, Pastor: Arkansas-Louisiana Conference
15.Coon, Glenn 111, Pastor: West Virginia – Mt. View Conference
16.Crandall, Alan, Doctoral Student: Andrews University
17.De Villiers, Brian, Worker South Africa
18.Dennis, Travis, Pastor Texas Conference
19.Dorsey, Ruth, Teacher: Washington Conference
20.Douglas, Gary, Pastor: West Virginia Mt. View Conference
21.Edwards, Calvin, Pastor: Missouri Conference
22.Ernesto Hernandez, CaliforniaAgafonoff, Sergie, Pastor,: Brisbane, Australia
23.Fahden, Lyall, Pastor: Oregon Conference
24.Finney, Conrad, Pastor: Oregon Conference
25.Ford, Desmond, Religion Professor: Australasian Division
26.Fredericks, Richard, Maryland
27.Garrison, Gary, Pastor: Central California Conference
28.Geddes, Charles, Teacher: Colorado Conference
29.Greenley, Ray, Pastor: Ohio Conference
30.Harper, John, Pastor: Oregon Conference
31.Harris, Ed, Pastor: Washington – Upper Columbia Conf.
32.Helppi, Rauno, Pastor: Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference
33.Higby, Bob, Pastor: Wisconsin Conference
34.Higby, Wally, Pastor: Northern California Conference
35.Honeycutt, Ronald, Pastor: Florida Conference
36.Hood, Paul, Pastor: Arkansas-Louisiana Conference
37.Howard, Turner, Pastor: Georgia- Cumberland Conference
38.Howell, Dan, Teacher: Florida Conference
39.Huston, Ed, Pastor: Washington Conference
40.Jenner, Loren, Pastor: South Australia
41.Johnson, Rick, Teacher: Missouri Conference
42.Kaikainahaule, Bill, Pastor: Southern California Conference
43.Kellar, Don, Pastor: Northern California Conference
44.Kluzit, Victor, Pastor/Lit. Evang.: Texas Conference
45.Knight, David, Teacher: Colorado Conference
46.Kress, Michael, Graduate Student: Andrews University
47.LaBrecque, Alexander, Pastor: West Virginia-Mt. View Conference
48.Lamp, Herschel, M.D.: St. Helena Hosp. (Calif.)
49.Lawson, Chris, Teacher: Ontario Conference
50.Lemon, Duane, Pastor: Southern California Conference
51.Ludwig, Doug, Pastor: Kansas Conference
52.Luster, Chuck, Pastor: Arkansas-Louisiana Conference
53.Maraccini, Rocky, California
54.Martin, Colin, Pastor: England
55.Martin, J. Mark
56.Mason, Noel, Pastor: Oregon Conference
57.Masters, George, Teacher: Central California Conference
58.McCauley, Norman, Pastor: Northern New England Conference
59.McCormack, Kevin, Pastor: Southern California Conference
60.McHarg, Winston, Pastor: Australia
61.McMurphy, Elmore, College Professor: Pacific Union College
62.Merrill, Ben, Pastor: Oregon Conference
63.Moorehead, Doug, Teacher: Florida Conference
64.Moran, Don, Literature Evangelist: Central California Conference
65.Newman, Ray, Pastor: New South Wales, Australia
66.Palmer, Bob, Pastor: Northern California Conference
67.Pangborn, Tom, Pastor: Oregon Conference
68.Parkin, Herb, Pastor: Western Australia
69.Patterson, Mark, Pastor: Northern California Conference
70.Peck, Clay, Colorado
71.Peisert, Greg, Pastor : Iowa Conference
72.Pitman, Hughie, Pastor: Florida Conference
73.Pobke, Wayne, Pastor: South Australia
74.Polglase, John, Pastor: Western Australia
75.Pursley, Mkhael, Pastor: Pennsylvania Conference
76.Ralph, Kevin, Pastor: Australia
77.Rapp, Jim, Pastor: Southern California Conference
78.Ratzlaff, Dale, Pastor: Central California Conference
79.Rea, Walter, Pastor: Southern California Conference
80.Rendalen, Aage, Editor: Norway (actually withdrew from church over doctrinal reasons, not fired)
81.Retief, P.J., Pastor: South Africa
82.Rollings, Dean, Pastor: Queensland, Australia
83.Ruppert, Greg, Pastor: Northern California Conference
84.Saladino, Joe, Pastor: Kansas Conference
85.Schafer, Gary, Pastor: Oregon Conference
86.Schuster, Craig, Pastor: Alabama-Mississippi Conference
87.Sellers, Dennis, Evangelist : Washington – Upper Columbia Conf.
88.Shumate, Gordon, Pastor: Singapore
89.Smith, Neville, Pastor: South Australia (Victoria)
90.Stambaugh, R. Glen: Oregon Conference of SDA
91.Suessenbach, Heinz, Pastor: Western Australia
92.Summers, Lloyd, Pastor: Oregon Conference
93.Swanepoel, Martin, Pastor : South Africa (Transvaal Conf.)
94.Taylor, Greg, North Carolina
95.Toews, John, Pastor: Southeastern California Conference
96.van Rooyen, Smuts, Religion Prof.: Andrews University
97.Vorhies, Wayne, Pastor: Colorado Conference
98.Waterhouse, Wayne, Pastor: Texas Conference
99.Waterworth, David, Pastor: South Australia
100.Weaver, Bruce, Pastor: Arkansas-Louisiana Conference
101.Wells, Dan, Pastor: Southeastern California Conference
102.Willruth, Bart, Doctoral Student: Andrews University
103.Winger, Nordon, Pastor: Northern California Conference
104.Zapara, John, Pastor: Northern California Conference
On March 16th, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student 1
Nath , with all due respect , you need to get a life !
you keep bringing the 1844 IJ issue over and over again . Well , Des, was giving an opportunity to defend his view and he failed badly to make any good argument , that is why he was fired , What did he accomplish ? Nothing . You keep bringing the issue that the church doesn't grow here in North America , I think it is not an Adventist issue but a cultural issue , there are millions of people who do not attend church . Though it is not bad we are more than one Million ! Desmond Ford is an old Man now , he is an example of what happen to those who oppose God's work . About those poor Pastors who left the church , there is something good about something bad , Think about all the good Pastors the church was able to hire after letting those losers go .
On March 16th, 2011 pat travis says:
Seminarian,
With the "judgment and words" you judge, you shall be judged. Father forgive them for they do not know what they do.
regards,
pat
On March 16th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Cornerstone:
Those are just the SDA employees who deserve an apology–but never in the history of Adventism, to date, has it ever apologized for such actions. A complete list would begin with Canright if we went back to the beginning of the organization.
This list, also, does not begin to give the numbers of members who either formally left the church, or simply no longer attend because of the Gospel presented by Des Ford. A terrific price to pay but the church always buries its dead but without ceremony–like the "disappeared" they really just "fade away"
How dare the church call its members to confess, when the church has never done so?
On March 16th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
SS has stated that Dr. Ford "was giving an opportunity to defend his view and he failed badly to make any good argument[s], that is why he was fired." I regret to inform SS that he has been badly misinformed.
We can all understand why that has happened since the propaganda machine of traditional Adventism is known to be very effective especially at the Adventist Seminary under the current administration. It would also appear that SS is the victim of living in an intellectual ghetto at Andrews.
The simple fact is that Dr. Ford's arguments concerning the IJ doctrine were very persuasive. Surveys undertaken after Glacier View showed that the vast majority of Adventist theologians agreed with him.
The reason that he was fired was entirely political. He made the mistake of challenging a key doctrine of traditional Adventism which has little, if any, Biblical support, and he did it in public. Doing it in public was his undoing.
You can be an Adventist theologian, professor, and pastor and not believe in many traditional Adventism concepts just so you don't go public with your views. Do not let the average church member in on the secret that a number of unique Adventist teachings are not Biblical. This is widely known but let's all keep it a secret. Desmond Ford would not play that game.
On March 16th, 2011 Hansen says:
The real issue was not the Investigative judgment. It was the gospel, the imputed righteousness of Christ which is reckoned to the account of those who believe Jesus died and rose again.
The SDA church hates that gospel because it flies in the face of the legalistic, Decalogue oriented construct which carnal people prefer. Des was controversial long before his AAF meeting at PUC. He was controversial because he preached the justifying righteousness of Christ, free to all those who believe.
It is a disservice to his ministry to characterize it by his IJ work. The IJ, as commonly understood, robbed people of any rest in Christ by depicting God as a faultfinding nitpicker scurrying over every detail of our life looking for a mistake. Des emphasized that we are saved by Christ's righteousness, not our own. Tragically, that was good news to Adventists–tragic because the church had been around ~ 130 years and was still not proclaiming the gospel, the good news of what Jesus did for us.
Righteousness by faith among Adventists consisted of naval gazing, self examination, even asceticism,i.e. no cheese, ice cream, meat, peanuts between meals, and so forth. The passage in Acts which says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him was a prooftext for those who wanted to link the blessing of the Spirit to works.
People were running around teaching a wacky, eclectic SOP based salvation paradigm which made the cross an inconvenient stumbling block, rather than the fount of every blessing. The cross of Christ was merely a means to an end: obedience to the Decalogue.
Not only Des, but Martin Luther, and every other gospel minded evangelical preacher, including Paul, would have eschewed the legalistic cultism which has and continues to characterize many dimensions of the SDA denomination.
On March 16th, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student , Hansen . where did you get that information " the shaking of adventism " by Paxton .I think Dr. Ford theology on justification by faith has been accepted by a great number of scholars in our church .
For those who want to understand Ford Theology
check this
https://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/desmondfordtheology.htm
and if you want to read a view on justification different than Ford read Dr. Erwin Gane critique on Des Ford book "right with God "
On March 16th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hansen wait a minute! Your statements are untrue! Why would you intentionally do that?
You have made false unwarranted blanket statements which aren't true. I have noticed that many SDA critics use this 'modus operandi' to discredit us by conjuring up false accusations, in keeping with satan's method of attack. Our Church's position has been made very clear regarding these doctrines yet in spite of this, false accusations have always been levelled against us. But Why? Is this part of the war against those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus? That has always made me weary of those factions bent on this method which uses a false agenda to discourage and deceive those wanting to join the SDA Church. I would advise readers to compare SDA doctrine with this.
Below are some of the falsities you have posited. Readers please note, this is a 'text-book' case, so to speak, regarding a common 'pathological' position which seeks to misrepresent SDA doctrine in order to unduly discredit us and in the process attempts to deceive others. One can evidently see this in these false statements:
1] False–>The SDA church hates that gospel because it flies in the face of the legalistic, Decalogue oriented construct which carnal people prefer.
2] False–>The IJ, as commonly understood, robbed people of any rest in Christ by depicting God as a faultfinding nitpicker scurrying over every detail of our life looking for a mistake.
3] False–>Tragically, that was good news to Adventists–tragic because the church had been around ~ 130 years and was still not proclaiming the gospel, the good news of what Jesus did for us.
4] False–>Righteousness by faith among Adventists consisted of naval gazing, self examination, even asceticism,i.e. no cheese, ice cream, meat, peanuts between meals, and so forth.
5] False–>People were running around teaching a wacky, eclectic SOP based salvation paradigm which made the cross an inconvenient stumbling block, rather than the fount of every blessing. The cross of Christ was merely a means to an end: obedience to the Decalogue.
6] False–>Not only Des, but Martin Luther, and every other gospel minded evangelical preacher, including Paul, would have eschewed the legalistic cultism which has and continues to characterize many dimensions of the SDA denomination.
SDA in Christ Alone
T
On March 16th, 2011 Hansen says:
Seminary Student, When I want to understand a subject or the thoughts of a particular individual, I use primary documents, not secondary ones. Mrs. Ellen G White was critical of those who are merely reflectors of the thoughts of other men. I know what Des taught because I attended Bible schools he conducted in Auburn California and because I listened to numerous tapes of his sermons.
I responded to his message because I had similar thoughts for years before I heard him articulate and illustrate the gospel lessons from the Old Testament. I derived those thoughts from Romans chapter 4. There you can clearly read that justification is based on faith alone. Works contribute nothing to it. If they did, then God would be in debt to us and salvation would not be by grace.
And since I studied scores of Luther's sermons and read numerous works of his, I recognize a similar stream of thought in the writings and emphasis of both men.
You think Des is just an old man now? Well, we all get older; however, I can assure you, that, to the best of my ability, I am carrying on his work and have been for several years. My audience is not as extensive, nor my lessons as eloquent, nor my character as sterling, but even one who stammers justification by faith will prevail over the eloquent liars who teach another way of salvation, liars who fill many Adventist pulpits and are held in high estem by confused members, some of whom appear here.
Any Bible believing Protestant is bound by his conscience to carry on the work tht Des did because he was doing what Jesus told us all to do, "Preach the gospel [not some legalistic garbage] to every creature."
On March 16th, 2011 Tom says:
Goodness, it seems like no subject can be discussed, even earthquakes without dragging 1844 and IJ into it all. Do some of you count sheep in your sleep and suddenly wake up from a nightmare at the count of 1844?
On March 16th, 2011 Tom says:
Cornerstone
I don't remember the subject of 1844 and the IJ being part of the vows on the baptismal certificate. One thing I would strike from the vows is recognition that in joining the SDA Church your are becoming part of the Remnant Church. The is no institutional remnant church, but there is most definitely a remnant people. Oh dear, I've probably just opened another fresh can of worms. How 'bout we all bait a hook with them and go fishin'?
On March 17th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Dr Taylor has once again criticised Pastor Ted Wilson in this article. I am surprised at the silence of many on this blog in this regard. I don't blame them though, as they will immediately be categorized in a derogatory way. I have no qualms about been labelled 'whatever' as long as my label also says in big bold letters: "Washed in the Blood", I'm down with that!
The GC President has been duly elected through a process of free and fair elections. This Representative form of elective process which grants minority cultures and race groups from all over the world the opportunity to be represented is so cool, rather than just the usual 'majority' rule process. (I was tempted to say that this method is used to keep the First World happy but I know that this isn't the case). The intentions of this process are indeed noble. So why hasn't someone like: "umm who can I think of", well maybe Dr Taylor been elected? (Did I hear shouts of joy from some bloggers?). Well that just hasn't happened. (Again I was tempted to say "It ain't happening" but refrained from doing so, due to the provision of the elective process which allows opportunity for nominations from all factions. Who knows what may happen or who will be elected in the future?) With no disrespect to our other potential candidates, (including Dr Taylor), I can safely say thank God for our able President and may God bless him and His family. I join the many others in expressing this sentiment.
Pastor Ted Wilson may not be everybody's 'cup of tea' but he has been appointed by the highest Church structure (GC Session) to this position. I respect that decision, as do many others, and I am sure that God has a purpose for his appointment to this honorable and significant position. I know that not all Dr Taylor's comments are untrue and I take it that the initiative by Pastor Ted Wilson regarding the distribution of The Great Controversy, as mentioned by Dr Taylor is true. I see this initiative as a means of getting the stalemate in modern Christendom (often referred to as 'maturing') out of the 'drunkenness' of false doctrine and back to the True Teachings of the Holy Scriptures. Freedom of Religion most definitely includes the right to propagate it. The Great Controversy has a way of pointing souls back to the relevance of the Holy Bible and also to a position where they can meet Jesus and gain a deeper understanding of the Great Sacrifice our Saviour has made for the sinners of this world.
Have a Great Day in Christ
T
On March 16th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Wow! Cornerstone111
I would like to sincerely apologise to all 104 persons on your list if we as a Church have wronged them in any way. Please forgive us as we forgive you too. We hope you and your family may come back some day soon. We're saddened to hear that you have parted ways with the SDA Church for whatever reason.
Without any sarcasm, I would suggest that some of the 104 on the list assist Cornerstone111 in the ministry at his local church. Distributing copies of the Great Controversy isn't a viable option for him at this stage.
Still a Brother of the 104 in Christ
T
On March 17th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
@Hansen
RE:…When I want to understand a subject or the thoughts of a particular individual, I use primary documents, not secondary ones.
A good 'primary document' to understand is the Ten Commandments, particularly the Fourth Commandment. Wouldn't you agree?
T
On March 17th, 2011 markham says:
It's not currently dying according to source outside the church–
Truth Seeker
On March 17th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
Mr. Hammond certainly has a well developed sense of humor: As an example, please note his recent comment: "The GC President has been duly elected through a process of free and fair elections." That's rich!
Anyone with even a fleeting understanding of how the system that the church uses to "elect" its "leaders" knows that the phrase "free and fair elections" does not operate.
Election of church officials is a closely controlled system employing an all powerful Nominating Committee system. It's the same system used in "People's Democracies" to make sure that the "right" individuals are "elected." It is true that from time to time in some conferences, the system breaks down and an "outsider" is elected, but those events are few and far between.
Keep it up, Mr. Hammond. We need more of your humor on the AT blogosphere.
On March 18th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
In keeping with Dr Taylor's request to provide some more 'humor' on the AT blogosphere and not wanting to disappoint a man of his stature, I submit the following from the website:
https://www.adventist.org//world-church/facts-and-figures/structure/index.html
(please note Dr Taylor, that I cannot be held liable or sued for any injuries incurred as a result of rolling on the floor with laughter). I wish to further commend you on your keen humor on this particular blog which so insensitively uses the tragic Japan earthquake to score brownie points against Trad's and the GC President. Five thousand lives have so far been lost in Japan and around ten thousand people are still missing. Odd though, the rest of the world ain't laughing 'bout that! The SDA church model is well structured and reflects God's hand in its formulating.
World Church Structure and Governance
The Seventh-day Adventist Church is organized with a representative form of church government. This means authority in the Church comes from the membership of local churches. Executive responsibility is given to representative bodies and officers to govern the Church. Four levels of Church structure lead from the individual believer to the worldwide Church organization:
•1. The local church made up of individual believers
•2. The local conference, or local field/mission, made up of a number of local churches in a state, province, or territory
•3. The union conference, or union field/mission, made up of conferences or fields within a larger territory (often a grouping of states or a a whole country)
•4. The General Conference represents the worldwide expression of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Its constituent membership is defined in the Constitution of the General Conference. To facilitate its worldwide activity, the General Conference has established regional offices, known as divisions of the General Conference, which have been assigned, by action of the General Conference Executive Committee at Annual Councils, general administrative oversight responsibilities for designated groups of unions and other church units within specific geographical areas.
Each level is "representative," that is it reflects a democratic process of formation and election. Local churches elect their own officers and church boards by majority voting. Churches elect delegates to the conferences which meet "in session" every two or three years. Executive authority between sessions is exercised by the Conference Executive Committee and the executive officers (normally President, Secretary and Treasurer), all of whom are elected by the session.
A similar process operates for Union sessions usually 5 years and General Conference sessions, at which times officers and committees are elected, reports given and policies decided.
Each constituent level of the church operates a variety of institutions. Seventh-day Adventists see in the gospel commission and the example of the Lord and His apostles the responsibility of followers of Christ to serve the whole person. In their world outreach they have therefore followed the pattern of their beginnings in the development of educational, health-care, publishing, and other institutions. No church organization or entity assumes responsibility for the liabilities, debts, acts, or omissions of any other church organization simply because of its church affiliation.
When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop. When organizations review decisions of other organizations, they do not assume responsibility for the liabilities of any other organization.
Administratively, the world-wide Church has 13 Divisions, which are composed of churches grouped by a collection of missions, fields, or states into unions of churches.
Have fun!
T
On March 17th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, markham!
I chased that link and yeah! You're spot on! I think some on this blog are just trying to pull wool over our eyes. Thanks Bro for the link. It is indeed a breath of fresh air! Hmm… So the Trads are doing their thing in the US… ; ) –> Seek and you shall find – now you're talking Truth Seeker!
Here's an excerp from the link: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2011-03/adventists-grow-other-churches-decline
Adventists grow as other churches decline Mar 16, 2011 by G. Jeffrey MacDonald (RNS) Rest on the Sabbath. Heed Old Testament dietary codes. And be ready for Jesus to return at any moment.
If these practices sound quaint or antiquated, think again. They're hallmarks of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the fastest-growing Christian denomination in North America.
Newly released data show Seventh-day Adventism growing by 2.5 percent in North America, a rapid clip for this part of the world, where Southern Baptists and mainline denominations, as well as other church groups are declining. Adventists are even growing 75 percent faster than Mormons (1.4 percent), who prioritize numeric growth.
For observers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the growth rate in North America is perplexing.
"You've got a denomination that is basically going back to basics … saying, `What did God mean by all these rules and regulations and how can we fit in to be what God wants us to be?'," said Daniel Shaw, an expert on Christian missionary outreach at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif. "That's just totally contrary to anything that's happening in American culture. So I'm saying, `Whoa! That's very interesting.' And I can't answer it." …
Ciao
T
On March 18th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Erv, why do you have a problem with calling the Japanese earthquake (and tsunami) a sign of the times. It is a sign of the times, the Bible says so. So is the Christchurch (New Zealand) earthquake and the multitude of floods in various countries.
I can just picture it – Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His believers to heaven, and there's Ervin Taylor standing there, jaw wide open, in shock, saying "I didn't thnk he actually meant what he said!"
Pagophilus
On March 18th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
I'm sure that we all appreciate Mr. Hammond's very helpful outline of the organizational system of the current Adventist Church.
Please note that it operates with five bureaucratic levels of governance, a system created more than a hundred years ago. (By the way, we now operate the most expensive hierarchical system of any Christian Church. This includes the Roman Catholic tradition with only three levels.)
It is a shame that he does not understand the difference between the "official" explanation of its operation for which he provides an excellent recitation and the way the system actually operates. At least our Catholic friends are honest about how their system really operates.
On March 18th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
The people in the U.S.nominate their preidential candidate. If anyone believes that each individual in the U.S. has equal responsibility in nominating the candidate, there is a nice bridge to nowhere up for sale.
It's the "back-room" deals that "choose" a nominee for president, and even in the popular elections, as were demonstrated a few short years ago, the actual counts are not always accepted.
Just so in choosing the Adventist world leader. Anyone following even a little bit of this summer's election in Atlanta, realize that it was a "done deal" from the get-go. When only a few "chosen" names are ever submitted, and some are conveniently rejected, the outcome can be very easily controlled. Listing the paper structure has loittle to do with the actuality.
On March 18th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Dr Taylor and Mrs Elaine Nelson have clearly missed one important point: that the Holy Spirit is 'the' Official Administrator of the Church and that Christ is the Head. The structure may be perceived as enfeebled and defective but those within this awesome body called the Church, have been bought with a price. Though the ways of man may vary, the Church still belongs to the One Who bought her. The fact that the Holy Spirit is All Powerful, All Knowing and All Present puts His influence over the Church in it's true 'structural' perspective. He calls the shots, so to speak: even if some may try to do otherwise at times, He will accomplish His purpose. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is under the administration of the Spirit of God, period. Five levels, ten levels, two levels: who cares? The Holy Spirit is the One Who watches over the Church and that's the level that counts!
On March 18th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
"Pagophilus" posted the following comment: "The Japanese earthquake (and tsunami) . . . is a sign of the times, the Bible says so."
I wonder if "Pagophilus" would be so kind to provide the Biblical text which identifies this particular earthquake as "a sign of the times"?
On March 18th, 2011 Vastergotland says:
I wonder whether Mr Hammond has perchance failed to appreciate the difference between The Church of which Christ is the head and the Seventh Day Adventist denomination of which Ted Wilson is presently the head.
On March 18th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, Vastergotland
You have failed to appreciate my point, Sir!
Ciao
T
On March 18th, 2011 laffal says:
Cornerstone111,
Here's a link to read along with your prophetic insight concerning the SDA church as it stands. Now, I'm not saying that all is well in Adventism. I just putting this link out as a current event.
https://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm?
Peace
On March 18th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
The comments posted to this article were about equal between those who favored and those who were not pleased with Adventism.
One remarked that the girls' dress in the picture was not allowed when she was an Adventist: No skin above the elbow (the dresses were sleveless, no skin above the knees), and NO dancing!
Another remarked: "My daughter got briefly involved in a 7th Day church. When she told me I was sinning for Sunday worship, I told her if she wanted to follow the Old Testament, she should have been stoned at age 15."
Both are true!
On March 18th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Of course, happy to oblige.
Matthew 24:7 – signs of the end-times.
Would you like a further exposition of Daniel, Revelation and the 1260-day prophecy?
Daniel's book was sealed until the time of the end. It is now unsealed and we understand it.
It's not that hard. If you've been an Adventist all this time you should understand these things. Whether you believe them or not is another matter.
On March 18th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
"Pagophilus" has seemly completely internalized traditional Adventist eschatology. I am going to assume that he is one of the 1 in 100,000 contemporary Adventists who can "correctly" explain the 2300 days (sorry, years) prophetic scheme of classical Adventism in 2300 words or less. It might be compared to the ability to explain the way in which one can calculate how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. An accomplishment that is truly unique.
On March 18th, 2011 wfnoel says:
Ervin,
Are you telling us you're one of those few people left who actually reads the Adventist Review?
On March 18th, 2011 wfnoel says:
Trevor,
The Holy Spirit as the "official administrator of the church?" I absolutely love that thought! What a contrast that is with the cavernous absence of Holy Spirit that is so common in Adventist congregations! We've reduced Him to an unseen power that only appears at the start of a public evangelistic campaign and sticks around just long enough to push people into the baptistry before disappearing as quietly and unseen as He arrived.
On March 18th, 2011 RonCorson says:
pagophilus says:
Matthew 24:7 – signs of the end-times.
Now, since according to Daniel we have been living in the time of the end since 1798, and this earthquake occurred after 1798, then this earthquake, and many others, are signs of the end-times.
So if Daniel says the end of times is since 1798 does that mean that Daniel disagrees with the New Testament authors who saw the end of time as being in their generation. In other words they are in sharp disagreement if one uses 1798. Or is it possible that Daniel makes no such claims as can be inferred by those claiming 1798 as the beginning of the end of times. Which would make sense considering such Adventist luminaries as Ellen White pointed to the great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 as a sign of the end. Sometimes I have to wonder how the traditional Adventists can even think they are traditional!
On March 18th, 2011 Ella M says:
Ella M
You're wrong– Adventists do not have a monoply on this idea. Every one I have talked to about this has told me before I said a word, that it was the sign of the end. In additon to SDA, they included Catholics, a Pentecostal, and those of no specific religious affiliation.
On March 18th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Tom,
The IJ and 1844 are not part of the baptismal vows per se; but the sanctuary (gasp!) is certainly referenced.
I agree with you (again) that we should strike the part about now “becoming part of the Remnant Church. [Because] there is no institutional remnant church, but there is most definitely a remnant people.”
A couple of observations, it seems that many of our fellow visitors and participants on this site have been less than intellectually forthright (or forthcoming) in that nearly all have declined to address either your concise and cogent explanation of the pre-advent judgment or my less cogent explanation; despite the fact that neither explanation are in conflict with the Bible, EGW, or the historical Adventist teaching on the subject (save for possibly the differing non-biblical terminology and/or nomenclature), and mine does not reference, quote, or paraphrase White or her considered “opinion.”
What’s more noteworthy and important, practically none have answered the question as to whether Jesus will return to take us to Heaven with Him as He is reported to have reassured us is the case. Notably, not even the individuals who have previously issued challenged or issued requests, to others, have bothered (dared?) to address this question.
Would perhaps an official challenge (or specific request) be in order at this point?
Adventist Today blogger
On March 18th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
What’s more noteworthy and important, practically none have answered the question as to whether Jesus will return to take us to Heaven with Him as He is reported to have reassured us is the case. Notably, not even the individuals who have previously issued challenged or issued requests, to others, have bothered (dared?) to address this question.
I believe that Jon Paulien and Graham Bradford describe the Heavenly Millenium quite we in this short clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB0MMWAu-Jg
Cheers
Nath
On March 19th, 2011 Vastergotland says:
Trevor
Would it be possible to appreciate your point and yet think that you confused the two entities mentioned in my previous reply and to therefore think your point erring?
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hey everyone,
Here is part 1 of Walter Martin and Des Ford speaking at Riverside meeting in California. I suggest every listen as Martin explains why he never said the Church was a cult, but also addresses the problems facing the Church, and that there are cultic tendencies that take place within the ranks.
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hey everyone,
Here is part 1 of Walter Martin and Des Ford speaking at Riverside meeting in California. I suggest everyone listen as Martin explains why he never said the Church was a cult, but also addresses the problems facing the Church, and that there are cultic tendencies that take place within the ranks.
On March 19th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
With due respect Sir, let me put it this way: I think you missed my point!
T
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Ervin,
Here is an interesting article claiming that 2010 was the deadliest year
on record for a generation:
https://www.sott.net/articles/show/226058-2010-Extreme-Weather-Deadliest
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
"Pagophilus" has seemly completely internalized traditional Adventist eschatology. I am going to assume that he is one of the 1 in 100,000 contemporary Adventists who can "correctly" explain the 2300 days (sorry, years) prophetic scheme of classical Adventism in 2300 words or less. It might be compared to the ability to explain the way in which one can calculate how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. An accomplishment that is truly unique.
Haha nice comment Ervin 🙂
On March 19th, 2011 Tom says:
Stephen
You question—Would perhaps an official challenge (or specific request) be in order at this point?—If you want to keep an argument going, I'd say yes. On the other hand sometimes silence in the face of a probing question speaks so loud it is deafening. Take your pick. My preference is to leave folks with something to think about rather than press them against the wall for a response when none seems forthcoming.
Tom
On March 19th, 2011 Tom says:
Say Cornerstone, haven't you broken the handle on that shovel yet digging around looking for more evidence, superficial or not, to poke around in for yet another dart to cast against the church, 1844, IJ, et al, ad anuseum?
I see you commented on an old blog on Ted Wilson GC speech that has been pretty much dormant since August.
As for those names you listed. Nordan Winger was my pastor shortly after I returned to the SDA Church. He left the church on his own, wasn't fired, and the last I heard of him was over 25 years ago. He had switched from Sabbath to Sunday and was pastoring a church of some kind in California. Same for Dale Ratzlaff, who I also knew. Ratzlaff has really gone nuclear against the SDA Church. If there are any apologies in order they should be forthcoming from him to the SDA church not the other way around. Smuts van Rooyan is currently the pastor of Glendale Central SDA Church, or at least he was about a year ago.
I read a story once about Little Red Ridding Hood revisited and rewritten for the PC folks. It has the hunter, who saved Grandma and Little Red Riding Hood, being charged with murder for killing the wolf, and Little Red Riding Hood laying a wreath on the grave of the wolf. Need I say more?
Tom
On March 19th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Many more pastors and denominational employees elected to resign rather than being fired. Just as Des Ford was not officially "fired" merely defrocked–effectively the same thing.
Personally, I know more than a dozen pastors and former very active members who simply "walked away" as I was one of them who no longer wished to claim membership in a church that I could not longer affirm all its creed, nor could respect leaders of the church who behaved in such a dastardly manner. The exodus of college presidents, teachers in those institutions and other prominent and very active members gave the church a "black eye" that few new members even know. The church simply "buries" its lost members without proper respects and a decent burial.
Others have noted that one of the most influential teachers in Adventism who taught at PUC, and LLU for many years–Graham Maxwell–has yet to be recognized by an obituary and acknowledgement in the Review. What's the reason for such a glaring ommission?
On March 19th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Tom,
You are right to this extent: the silence on the question of whether or not Jesus will return is absolutely deafening. However, this is about more than keeping an argument going.
Some of us are trying to determine if there is indeed ANY common ground to be shared with “Adventists” of a differing theological ideology. Do we in fact share the same religion, much less the same mission?
If ALL of us do not believe that John 14: 1-3 is literally true, then “Houston, we have a problem;” that cannot be resolved until we ALL believe it.
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 19th, 2011 Tom says:
Elaine
Your mentioning that the Review was yet to print an obituary or acknowledgment of the death of Graham Maxwell led me on a bit of a search this afternoon.
I remember Dr. Maxwell from when I used to visit my aunt who worked at Loma Linda before she retired and moved north in 1984. When I would fly down to visit her, I enjoyed sitting in on his Sabbath School class even before I came back to the church in 1980. He and Morris Venden were about the only Adventists I would take the time to listen to during my years of "departure from the faith." To me, Maxwell was always trying to show the graciousness and love of God in virtually everything he taught. I haven't kept up with him the past 25 years, but I know he definitely left a large foot print on the turf of Adventism that should have had some recognition in the Review after his passing November 20, 2010. AT and Spectrum certainly gave him a good send-off, but in checking on-line every issue of the Review since his death till now, there is nary a peep about his passing. Former GC President Neil Wilson died a few weeks later on December 14 and the very next issue had quite a piece on his passing as well. His photo was on the cover of the Review one of the January issues. This is to be expected because he was a GC President. There was an obituary about Roger Coon who died recently, but zilch on Maxwell.
I decided to check the date of the passing of a few other notable names in Adventism and searched the archives of the Review to see if there was any obituary on them. Samuele Bacciocchi died on December 20 ,2008. The very next issue of the Review, December 25, carried an obituary about his death.
Elaine I wouldn't hold your breath that this long after his death that the Review will have a piece dedicated to the passing of such a theological giant as Graham Maxwell. It's a sad day indeed when such a deliberate omission speaks volumes without a word written.
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Tom,
I see you commented on an old blog on Ted Wilson GC speech that has been pretty much dormant since August.
I am sorry Tom, I did not know there were certain rules about what blogs you are allowed to post on. How dare I upset the Atoday site by doing so. Oh will you please forgive me Tom, I hope it has not ruined your day 🙂 lol
Mate, when you can't sleep through the night because Chemotherapy is keeping you awake, you end up typing in search words and going back through old articles.
And NO, i have not broken any handle, and will continue to point out the Church errors on 1844, perfectionism and misuse of EGW.
If you want to hear what Walter Martin had to say about the Church, you can listen to it here, it is worth listening too:
Riverside Meeting part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOzZNKxcNQ4
Enjoy the listen.
Nath
On March 19th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Ervin Taylor writes: "Pagophilus" has seemly completely internalized traditional Adventist eschatology. I am going to assume that he is one of the 1 in 100,000 contemporary Adventists who can "correctly" explain the 2300 days (sorry, years) prophetic scheme of classical Adventism in 2300 words or less. It might be compared to the ability to explain the way in which one can calculate how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. An accomplishment that is truly unique.
Of course I could "correctly" explain the 2300 days/years in 2300 words. I'm surprised that you, with a PhD and being a Professor Emeritus, think that you can't. Where did you get your degree? From a degree mill, or from the back of a corn flakes packet? Or do I just call it willful ignorance and indifference?
As to how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, it varies with the size of the pin and the size of the angel, with a lower limit of zero and an upper limit of all of them.
Now tell me how you would nail jelly to a tree?
2 Peter 3:3-4 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the the big bang."
New American Standard Bible modified without permission especially for Erv. You can read in the following 5 verses about God's judgment of the world by the flood and the coming judgment by fire of ungodly men, and of God's patience toward you, Erv, not wishing that you should perish in that judgment, but that you may come to repentance. There's still time. Will you open your heart to God's calling today? Will you put aside your pride and accept Jesus, the creator, as your personal saviour today? Don't put it off, for tomorrow may never come. A sign of the times may hit your part of the world.
Pagophilus
On March 19th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
Is it me, or is "Pagophilus" getting testy? Where did I get my degree? Please. I am sure he can do better than that.
As for following my own "lusts", I'm 73 and lust is now way down the list of issues to be addressed. Now if I were 18, "lust" would be another matter. But that was many, many, years ago.
However, let me congratulate him on his response: "As to how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, it varies with the size of the pin and the size of the angel, with a lower limit of zero and an upper limit of all of them." I assume that his answer indicates he realizes that the question itself is silly.
I very much admit that giving the "correct" explanation of the 2300 day (sorry, year) prophecy is something that I have no interest in attempting. The reason is that while there is a "correct" explanation in terms of the immediate historical context of the original writer, there is, in fact, no "correct" explanation of such a prophecy beyond that. There is only the explanation of the individual doing the explaining and the faith community that accepts a given explanation.
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Pagophilus,
Stop overreacting. The Japan earthquake is just part of a long line of earthquakes that have been happening for the last 2,000 years, they all fit with Prophecy considering Christ could have come back in the first century.
The birth pangs have always been happening since Christs ascension.
Every generation has had famines, wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, false Christs etc. The only difference now is, everything is happening on a global scale. We are no longer living in a big world, but rather a small global community.
The world is now over populated, there is word that by the end of the year the entire globe will be in a famine. There is only 20 years worth of water left to sustain the growing population, and by 2050, the world will have to grow all the food that has been grown and eaten since the dawn of time, in one year. Those odds are impossible, especially with increasing natural disasters wiping out our crops.
So are you right in saying Japan is part of prophecy being fulfilled, I would have to say YES and NO.
Its amazing how people tried to say EGW predicted the Trade Tower attacks(no different to those who twist Nostradameus' words to fit with modern events), but she is silent on these huge Tsunamis, nuclear disasters, Rise of Islam(terrorism) , World wars, and attacks on Israel from Nazi Germany, and now from Iran.
Keep your mind open people, study the bible more than ever, and realize EGW writings like the Great Controversy are not bibles, or Third testaments, and things just may turn out a hell of a lot different to what she predicted, leaving a lot of SDA deceived and disappointed.Some Adventists are too worried about the coming Sunday laws than things that really matter. I have news for you all, Sunday Laws were in when I was a kid, and the SDA still went to church on Saturday with no problems at all.
God Bless
Nath
On March 19th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Cornerstone 111,
Thank you for providing the youtube link. So, are then you saying that you personally believe John 14: 1-3 to have been exactly what Jesus said; as well as literally what He meant?
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 19th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Ervin Taylor writes: I very much admit that giving the "correct" explanation of the 2300 day (sorry, year) prophecy is something that I have no interest in attempting. The reason is that while there is a "correct" explanation in terms of the immediate historical context of the original writer, there is, in fact, no "correct" explanation of such a prophecy beyond that.
And the historical context of the 2300 day prophecy was…?
The angel told Daniel in chapter 8 to shut up the vision, for it shall be for many days. Further on in chapter 12 the angel tells Daniel, who doesn't understand his own writings, "…the words are closed up and sealed till the end of time."
There was no "immediate historical context". Daniel didn't even know what he was writing about. The vision was for the future, for the time of the end, ie for a time after 1798, and that is the context of the prophecy. So the "correct" explanation is the one we all know (and some of us love).
On March 19th, 2011 pagophilus says:
cornerstone111 wrote: Its amazing how people tried to say EGW predicted the Trade Tower attacks(no different to those who twist Nostradameus' words to fit with modern events), but she is silent on these huge Tsunamis, nuclear disasters, Rise of Islam(terrorism) , World wars, and attacks on Israel from Nazi Germany, and now from Iran.
Neither did the Bible say anything about these. A prophet (biblical or otherwise) doesn't have to predict every single thing that is going to happen. Do you expect a history book covering every possible detail, but written in advance? That's not the purpose of a prophet. A prophet is there to be God's mouthpiece, and in the process of doing that, sometimes foretells future events, but not all of them. It would be a waste of his/her time.
And this is taking things way off topic so I'll restrict myself to a short comment. Don't you worry about Iran. Having been there recently and keeping abreast of developments there I can tell you it's a peaceful country with a peaceful government (headed by an undiplomatic big-mouth). Worry more about what the US government will do not only to other nations but to its own people. Iran is just showing up everyone else's hypocrisy.
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Pag,
Iran has said that Israel is a dead tree that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.
They are racing to build nuclear bombs, they have just been granted permission by Syria to build 2 naval bases there. They believe if they bomb Israel and start WW3 that they are fulfilling their Prophecy, which will cause their Messiah 'The Mahdi' to appear.
I would say Iran is a massive threat.
One thing that gets me, I believe in Spiritual Israel, not literal. But Literal Israel must still play some role in end times. Why would Hitler persecute them so badly, which ended up with them being reinstated in Palestine? which of course Dispensationalists believe is a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.
Things are not going to play out the way The Great Controversy has it.
We need to get back to the bible, and away from plagiarised work.
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hi Stephen,
I believe that what Jesus said is based on the way a Jewish wedding happened. All these observances were types of prophecy I suppose. I believe Christ is going to take us back to heaven for a time, whether it be 1000 years or that is symbolic does not matter.
I think Bradford and Paulien explained it well. I told that to a Baptist friend the other day, and he was impressed with that.
What is your view on it?
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Pag,
I do not believe EGW wrote about the Trade towers, I think she was referring to the great time of the end in Revelation when everything starts falling apart. And if she did speak about the Trade Towers, what was her purpose? it was the beginning of world wide terrorism which she knew nothing about, terrorism that has brought us one step closer to a New World order, that has forced us to live in a Big Brother world now where we are all being constantly watched. None of this is in her writings, yet all of it is playing a big role in end times. How could God not have warned her? why is it she only wrote mainly about events happening in her own time, like Sunday laws etc?
On March 19th, 2011
Tom says:
Come on cornerstone, did I gore you ox too hard? No there is no statute of limits on posting on old blogs here at AT. It just appears to me at least that you have basically one string you play over and over again on the fiddle with regards to 1844 and IJ.
We have found common ground on many things here in the AT world so maybe we should build on that and I should refrain from making any back hand slaps at you. Sorry.
I feel for you man, going through chemotherapy. That's no fun. I hope your prognosis is good.
Yes I listened to the link you gave with Walter Martin. See, I do listen to both sides and am not closed minded. That's why it is hard for people to pin me down as either a conservative or liberal. I'm really neither. I believe I should always take a students attitude of learning more all the time, but not necessary hop on the bandwagon of change just for changes sake.
I pretty much laid out a biblical case for why I believe in a sanctuary doctrine and a preadvent judgment in an earlier post on this blog. To me the debate surrounding 1844 is non-consequential to the subject, so why make a fight out of something if it's unncessary It's obvious that you think differently. That is your perrogative. I know a lot of SDA in positions of influence within the church who are in good and regular standing who have doubts about 1844. They just don't make a lot a noise about it. You no doubt choose a different option.
Must we all be in lockstep like a marching army to go forward?
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Tom,
Lets change the subject for a bit then.
What is happening in libya? we have the English, French, Americans, Arabs uniting and attacking Ghadaffi at this very present. Which is good, because he was going to commit horrendous atrocities against his people.
But at the same time, we have Yemen blocking protestors in a city square with burning tires, then opening firew on them with sniper rifles, and the world does not do anything. America has given them 300Million US in the last 5 years for their military.
Anyone care to speak their mind on these current events?
On March 19th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Tom,
I know a lot of SDA in positions of influence within the church who are in good and regular standing who have doubts about 1844. They just don't make a lot a noise about it. You no doubt choose a different option.
I say this in the most sincere way brother, but if 1844 is wrong,then shouldn't we be standing up for the truth? I am very passionate about doing right.
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Iran has said that Israel is a dead tree that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.
Source? Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini in saying that the zionist regime will disappear from the pages of time. He did not say that they will be the ones to do it.
They are racing to build nuclear bombs,
Source? They have stated otherwise, the IAEA say they are not making bombs, even US experts have said there is no evidence that they are enriching uranium for military purposes. They tell everyone in advance what they are doing and their reactors are open to inspection (just not to US 'spies').
they have just been granted permission by Syria to build 2 naval bases there.
Source? Even if true, how many army and naval bases does the US have in other countries? Look on Wikipedia. Too many to count.
They believe if they bomb Israel and start WW3 that they are fulfilling their Prophecy,
Source? They are only interested in bombing Israel if Israel bombs them first. How many incidents of Iran attacking other countries have there been in modern times? None. How many incidents of the US attacking other countries unprovoked have there been? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya (current)
which will cause their Messiah 'The Mahdi' to appear.
They are awaiting the return of Imam Mahdi together with Christ.
I would say Iran is a massive threat.
When their Islamist regime collapses they will be ready to receive the gospel message. And I would love to be one of the people to take it to them.
Shiites have a history of suffering and martyrdom. They are prepared to stand up for their principles and suffer for it, rather than give in and compromise. A very good attitude if you ask me. Christians could learn a lot from them. It's the Sunnis (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) that have a history of using violence to get their way. Its those you should be wary of.
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Cornerstone111 wrote: Things are not going to play out the way The Great Controversy has it.
All we can do is wait and see on that one. I beg to differ. Watch this space. Time will tell. The Great Controversy is correct in its history. I put it to you that it's correct in its future prophecy explanations too.
On March 20th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Pag,
The Great Controversy is correct in its history. I put it to you that it's correct in its future prophecy explanations too.
The GC does actually contain historical errors, along with scientific, and theological errors.
The Waldenses never kept the sabbath is just one of them.
Keep searching, study the bible, it is full of meat.
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Cornerstone111 wrote: I do not believe EGW wrote about the Trade towers, I think she was referring to the great time of the end in Revelation when everything starts falling apart.
I agree with you on that one.
None of this is in her writings, yet all of it is playing a big role in end times. How could God not have warned her? why is it she only wrote mainly about events happening in her own time, like Sunday laws etc?
The Sunday laws are yet coming. Ellen White basically says that it's the US that will be the main driver in end-time events, persecuting people etc. This was unthinkable in her time, with the US being the model of tolerance, acceptance, a haven from persecution. It's not unthinkable now. Ellen White has the right picture. God told her what the US will be like, He didn't tell her how it would get that way. We are seeing how it is coming about, and through the words of Ellen White we know what's coming up.
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Cornerstone111 wrote: The GC does actually contain historical errors, along with scientific, and theological errors.
The Waldenses never kept the sabbath is just one of them.
They did, but not all of them and not throughout all their history. Information on the Waldenses is difficult to come by because most of their records were destroyed by Catholic forces.
The Irish Christians, and the Scots, also kept the Sabbath, until several centuries after Patrick and Columba.
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Cornerstone111 wrote: The Waldenses never kept the sabbath is just one of them.
Mind you, we may as well make it clear which Waldenses we are talking about. the Waldenses were around for a long time, since not long after apostolic times (3rd or 4th century AD). They got their Sabbathkeeping (and their theology) from Middle-Eastern Christians, not Roman Christians. They were not named for being the followers of Peter Waldo (though the followers of Waldo are counted among the Waldenses). After many centuries of persecution, hiding, compromise etc, many of them did lose their Sabbathkeeping. But the GC is essentially correct in its claims.
On March 20th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, Cornerstone111
Regarding Tom's comment to you: "I feel for you man, going through chemotherapy. That's no fun. I hope your prognosis is good."
If I am reading Tom's comment right, I sincerely hope and pray you get well soon, Sir. I have my dear older brother fighting cancer too. He is a strong faithful Christian warrior and preacher of the gospel like you. My brother's faith during this ordeal has been such a source of encouragement to us and I know those around someone like you feel the same. We will keep you in our prayers as well. I do understand your urgency in the posts you make and appreciate your sincerity, honesty and desire to bring Glory and Honor to God Almighty. May God have his hand of healing upon you, and bless you and your family during this time.
Peace in Christ
T
On March 20th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Thankyou Tom and trevor,
Chemotherapy is nasty, it is really knocking me around already, and it has only been 4 days so far.
I constantly feel nauseas, I cannot sleep, my muscles and bones ache, my sweat and urine smell like chemicals, my skin goes red and irritated, and the lovely list goes on and on lol.
I started trying Apricot Kernels, and I have gone on a 95% raw food diet, but decided that Chemo was also the wisest choice, as it will reduce the chance of me getting cancer again from 20% down to 2%.
Thankyou for your prayers, I really do appreciate it 🙂
Your friend in Christ'
Nath
On March 20th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Cornerstone,
Please accept my sympathy and wishes for your comfort during your ordeal. Terrible as it currently is, the benefits outweigh the risks for you. My hope is that the chemotherapy will halt or cure the cancer and you will be free of this horrible disease. The effects of chemotherapy vary so much and is the optimum treatment your physicians have chosen.
I very much enjoy your comments here and will continue to watch for your observations.
Elaine
On March 20th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Thankyou Elaine,
I should be on the mend in 6 weeks time.
I enjoy reading your comments as well. I understand the hurt you feel from the church and the reasons why you left. But I also believe there is a reason why you are still on here, foolish as we may seem, but I think deep down we want to see the SDA Church do the right thing, come to its senses and come in to full harmony with the Gospel message. I want to see the Church grow and share truth with the world and brethren from all other denominations.
I believe Adventism has a lot of truth to offer, but it keeps shooting itself in the foot so it doesn't move very far, and even at times falls over backwards.
I continually hope and pray for the church.
your friend
Nath 🙂
On March 20th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
RE your comment: "There was no "immediate historical context". Daniel didn't even know what he was writing about. The vision was for the future, for the time of the end, ie for a time after 1798, and that is the context of the prophecy. So the "correct" explanation is the one we all know (and some of us love)."
I’m with you on this one. The point you make undeniably depicts the context of this passage and is therefore very pertinent. There is no other reasonable interpretation apart from its eschatological significance (The text is plain in this regard). Daniel sought to understand this vision and it was revealed to him by Gabriel [Dan 8:15] (after the 'voice of a man' instructs Gabriel to reveal the vision – Dan 8:16) who emphatically declares the prophecy for a 'time of the end' application [Dan 8:17]. Those who don't hold the same position as Daniel, Gabriel and 'the man's voice' do it only to cling to any other position than this Biblical truth as understood and taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. You know how it is…
Dan 8:26 refers to the 'evenings and mornings' which relate to the time of the end as you have mentioned. Dan 8:27 clearly shows that he did not understand what the prophecy meant as do so many even today.
I came across this brilliant exhaustive study by Juarez R. Oliveira in his book – "Chronological Studies Related to Daniel 8:14 and 9:24-27" which simply just can't be ignored. Will a study like this be a credible argument proving the 1844 Investigative Judgment as accurate, biblical and true?
I was hoping to get some scholarly feedback or general take on this very impressive book/study.
Below is a pdf download of the book (Size 29.4 MB – may take a few minutes to download – (you will need Adobe Acrobat Reader or some other pdf reader).
https://www.iasdcentralfortaleza.com.br/Cronological_Studies_Daniel_9.pdf
Thanks Brother Juarez for the painstaking effort of putting together such a remarkable exhaustive study like this. God Bless.
Here is the Bookstore webpage where the book can be sourced from. https://www.adventistbookcenter.com/
God Bless You
Trevor
On March 20th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Tom wrote:
I pretty much laid out a biblical case for why I believe in a sanctuary doctrine and a preadvent judgment in an earlier post on this blog.
The case that you made did not at all conflict with the historical Adventist teaching on the subject. This is a point that must be reinforced because those in this space who say that they disagree with the historical SDA doctrinal teaching on the grounds that it is not biblical or an invention of face-saving necessity have failed to delineate where your take is either anti-biblical or extra-biblical (whereas they maintain that the historical SDA teaching is either or both).
Must we all be in lockstep like a marching army to go forward?
Yes, when it comes to whether or not Jesus will return to take us to be with Him! Members or congregants who remain among us, but do not actually believe this to be true or accept this to be a reality truly represent an entirely different army altogether. These are, in fact, the true infiltrators.
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 20th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Stephen,
You need to listen to Part 3 of the SDA Riverside Meeting with Dr.Martin and Dr.Ford. I am sorry mate, but the truth is out, you cannot keep pushing your TSDA view when it sits in error.
Part 3-
On March 20th, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
America is getting some growth at the moment, but I am worried that the Church is building itself up on Traditionalism again, and we are only going to see another repeat of what happened in 1980. The straw house built on the 1844 IJ will once again get blown down, causing many to be hurt and leave, and it starts all over again.
Australia is not having any growth, we are actually in reverse, and the truth does matter in our country, that is why I speak so passionately about the subject.
I gave a list of 104 SDA Pastors who the church should apologize too, one of them was my Uncle who was ministering in Perth at the time of the Ford/Glacier View debacle. He was doing a sermon with Theology he was taught from another great Scholar from Avondale(not Ford), and Geoff Youlden called in and heard him and 2 other Pastors speak in that area. Youlden panicked and believed they were teaching Ford's view, and dobbed them in to the Australian GC, they were then rang up within days and sacked over the phone.
My Uncle was then left with the dilemma of being stuck in Perth with his wife and 3 children, with no money, and no way of getting back to home to Adelaide(SA) where they were originally from. The Church just left them high and dry.
When they did finally get home, with no thanks to the Church, they did not know what to do with themselves, as they had been in Adventism for around 30 years, so they went to Adelaide Big Camp. They were basically shunned and ignored by most of the people there, and their kids were teased by other kids saying 'your daddy teaches doctrines of devils'.
Not long after that, they left the Church altogether with great hurt, and have never stepped a foot back inside it ever again.
I think a lot of the TSDA do not know the real damage that was caused by their view and paranoia, thinking they are doing good for God's remnant church, but really actually showing no compassion and burning a lot of real Christian people along the way for an organisation.
In 1983, my father who was a well respected head elder of our Church, had to pull our family out because of his conviction over 1844 IJ. Mum also said that the Church had got that bad by then, that a lot of the TSDA fanatics in the Church were doing full sermons straight out of the SOP, and were no longer using the bible. She said that our Church had basically become a cult down our way. Heaps ended up leaving, and as I have said, it has never recovered ever since. But I know for a fact that if the Church did the right thing with 1844 IJ, and the misuse of EGW, that heaps of those once faithful Christians to Adventism would be back at the drop of a hat (including my Father), and would be on fire to preach the Gospel to the world, and lead people to the SDA Church.
So as you can see, I am in the situation of getting these problems in the Church sorted out, so once again I can see our once great Church grow and become a great beacon of light in our city of 26,000 people. I do not want to see it die a horrible death from stubborn TSDA who do not want to change a thing. I want to see it become a movement again, with great growth, and good progress in our community. I want the SDA to be known again as 'the people of the book', and the searchers of truth.
It is Traditionalism that has caused all Churches to stop growing, and I think it is time that truth reigned over Tradition once and for all.
God Bless you all my Brethren
Nath
On March 20th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Dear Nath ( Cornerstone 111)
I just read about your health, several times today you were in my thoughts and prays. Remember we have a great GOD that always is in us or near to us. Here in Miami every Friday evening a small group of brothers and sisters in Christ we meet to study his Word and pray. We will pray for you and all your family
Amed
On March 20th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
Very interesting. Mr. Foster believes that anyone who does not believe in the Second Advent exactly like he does is an "infliltrator."
That Mr. Foster contributes an active blog to the Adventist Today web site just demonstrates the commitment of Adventist Today to celebrating the wide diversity of opinions that exist in our faith tradition.on important theological issues.
On March 20th, 2011 amed soliz says:
In Matthew 24 famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars… are listed as ‘signs of a age” and not as “signs of the end”. Mat 24:7 “there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains”
The earthquake mentioned in the sixth seal in Rev 6: 12-14 is a different thing. This for sure a sign of the end 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake (mega sismos). The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.These events are for the future and when these will occur there will be no time for repentance! The second coming follow the cosmic signs, noticed the attitude of the people who witness these events
Now haven said that I don’t think there is nothing wrong if somebody uses the events that we observe to reach people. As humans we are more susceptible to consider spiritual realities when tragedies occur. We just have to be sensitive, equilibrated and realistic.
On March 20th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Very interesting indeed! What was actually said was that we must all be in lockstep like a marching army “when it comes to whether or not [we all believe that] Jesus will return to take us to be with Him;” as is set forth according to John 14: 1-3.
This particular position has of course been clear to all who have been reading my “contributions” on this thread. Though this site is open to “celebrating the wide diversity of opinions that exist in our faith tradition on important theological issues,” we have made it clear that we are attempting to discover if, and what, common ground exists for us all to be considered of the same faith tradition.
As this is such an open forum, celebratory of diverse thinking among Adventists, and since I have personally been asked by the distinguished Dr. Taylor to clarify and elaborate on specific statements or contributions that I have previously made—to which I have attempted to unhesitatingly give accedence—may I again ask Dr. Taylor and others here if they believe that Jesus will return, as John 14: 1-3 reports (and records) Him to have claimed that He will?
If this will help yield an answer, in the spirit of openness, we can retract the word “infiltrator” since it has a particularly loaded history with some Adventists.
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 20th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Stephen, this is your exact quote:
"Must we all be in lockstep like a marching army to go forward?
Yes, when it comes to whether or not Jesus will return to take us to be with Him! Members or congregants who remain among us, but do not actually believe this to be true or accept this to be a reality truly represent an entirely different army altogether. These are, in fact, the true infiltrators."
Is it not possible to believe that Jesus is coming without specifying exactly how it will be, or that it is a physical reality? How is it physically possible for "Every eye to see Him"?
When Jesus was resurrected, which is supposed to represent all the saints who will be resurrected, he was NOT in the same form as before: his disciples who were the closest to him did not recognize him; he had powers of walking through closed doors and appearing and disappearing, something that as a human before, was not possible. How can we be certain of all the details what may occur at Christ's coming and why is it so necessary so as not to be labeld "infiltrators"? Since Christ is the only example of one who has died and arose, is that an indication of our beings at resurrection? Why is it not possible that those millions of faithful God-rearers before Christ, who knew nothing about a resurrection, will not be included? How could they have believed in this when they were never told? Is this an attempt to limit the inhabitants of heaven?
On March 20th, 2011 Tom says:
Cornerstone
Yes, the world is in a mess. Libya, Egypt, Yemen, North Korea the list goes on. I think about all that is keeping the world from busting apart at the seams is the angels holding in check the winds of strife. What other explanation is there. There are already enough weapons of mass destruction to reek sufficient annihilation that would rival the 7 last plagues.
We haven't seen anything yet! When Jesus mercy ceases to plead for this tired torn world, and Satan has full sway and the wicked are totally under his power, and the winds of strife are totally let go, it will be terrible beyond words.
But don't fear mate, those who are sealed in Jesus will stand as fearless and unharmed as the 3 Hebrews thrown into the fiery furnace. Read, better yet memorize, Psalms 91. For God's people it will be our finest hour!
Eager to go home to heaven.
Tom
On March 20th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Not to worry, most of us will be long in our graves before that happens; since it has been predicted nearly 2000 years ago and how many of those who at that time were said would be alive when it happened? Or even less than 200 years ago the SDA prophet also continued to say that some standing there would be alive when it happens. So easy to predict, so easy to be wrong!
On March 20th, 2011 RonCorson says:
Stephen wrote:
may I again ask Dr. Taylor and others here if they believe that Jesus will return, as John 14: 1-3 reports (and records) Him to have claimed that He will?
Why don't you ask that question in your own blog rather then side tracking this conversation. It seem rather rude to be so insistent upon people answering your questions when they are not particuarly relevant to the article and when you have your own blog on this same site.
On March 20th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
With reference to Mr. Foster's insistent question:
Elaine has already given the same answer I would. So that should take care of that.
Moving on . . .
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Elaine Nelson wrote: How is it physically possible for "Every eye to see Him"?
How physically possible is it for God to create the universe or the world? With God anything is possible.
(How physically possible is it for the universe to create itself and life to emerge and evolve? Not possible.)
On March 20th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Ervin Taylor wrote:
With reference to Mr. Foster's insistent question:
Elaine has already given the same answer I would. So that should take care of that.
Moving on . . .
We all know what it means when people try to weasel out of answering questions. Just look at our politicians.
Ervin's response settles it. He doesn't believe. He doesn't believe the Bible. He doesn't believe Adventist doctrine. He's not an Adventist. Period.
Why he's still here I don't know. (Unless he's trying to be the wolf in sheep's clothing.)
On March 21st, 2011 pagophilus says:
Cornerstone111, without knowing about the specifics of the situation, what your uncle was preaching, and exactly what he was taught and by whom, tell me, what exactly should the church do with ministers who teach doctrines opposing the church's teachings? (I use the word opposing deliberately.)
The church let Ford go on for too long, hoping he might change his mind. He didn't. This should be a lesson for the future. The church is not regular employment. You must be convinced that God has called you before seeking to work for Him.
On March 21st, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
We all know what it means when people try to weasel out of answering questions. Just look at our politicians.
Ervin's response settles it. He doesn't believe. He doesn't believe the Bible. He doesn't believe Adventist doctrine. He's not an Adventist. Period.
Why he's still here I don't know. (Unless he's trying to be the wolf in sheep's clothing.)
Thats enough of that Pag , that sort of self righteous, judgmental attitude does no good for anyone. Everyone is allowed to have their own views.
On March 21st, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student
Ervin goes to the Adventist church and I think he has membership in the congregation , Elaine is no longer a sda Ron was thinking of leaving not sure if he left , Nath follows Ford all the way .
I think the question of Mr. Foster is a valid one on this blog because as Adventists we expect Jesus to come and that is the hope we have but for the individuals mentioned above except Nath the bible is not the word of God , they get their " theology " by reading " comic books and other stuff " Since I have been reading these blogs , I have not read a biblical comment by Ervin or Elaine Or Ron . They have a high opionion about themselves , they think they are so briliant for thinking outside of the biblical context and if some one quotes or give scriptural answers for them there is something wrong with that person . Interesting that none of the above persons is a theologian . And none of them reason from scritpture , so I don't take them serious . Ervin , would make people think that he is "mainstream " Adventist , that there are many who think like him , he only has been probably in Eastern California Conference . Nath , believes in scritpture but he sees everything through Desmond Ford eyes , he think that if we reject the 1844 IJ message that everything would be ok .
I think I did a good job explaining people theology here if you disagree show me why .
On March 21st, 2011 Preston says:
Elaine,
Revelation 1:7 explains the phenomenon that you are questioning. It is very clear.
On March 21st, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Here are a few verses revealing a very evident infiltrating of the church.
•Matt 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [Matt 7:16,17,18,19,20]
•[Acts 20:29] I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
•Acts 20:30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
•2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
•2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
•Rev 13:11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
Elaine asks: How is it physically possible for "Every eye to see Him?
1] The Bible clearly teaches in Rev 1:7 that 'every eye shall see him' even those that 'pierced him'.
2] Matt 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Mark 9:23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Luke 18:27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
Finite minds should never ever place themselves in a position where they limit God's Omnipotence, Omniscience and His Omnipresence. It is a huge mistake to underestimate the Power of the Living God! With Him all things are possible! Praise God!
In the One Who defies Impossibilities…
T
Trevor
On March 21st, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Mrs Nelson
I know you are many more years the wiser than some of us but just remember that God has never ever backed out on His promises. Whether we sleep in the grave or are alive at his return, His promises are sure…
2Pet 3:3-10 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. [NIV]
May God bless you
T
On March 21st, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
@RonCorson
I think that Mr Stephen Foster has asked a relevant question which helps us better understand the views and positions of those contributing on this blog. In other words it helps to know "who's who in the zoo" and where they are coming from. I think it is rude to snub a relevant question that some of us would like to know the answer to. What does Dr Taylor believe?
Elaine's answer clearly dodged the question. I would ask the same question too.
…may I again ask Dr. Taylor and others here if they believe that Jesus will return, as John 14: 1-3 reports (and records) Him to have claimed that He will?
New kid on the block in Christ
Trevor
On March 21st, 2011 amed soliz says:
Cornerstone 111 and Pat:
as i promised…here are two are reasons ( more to come when i return home) why i think Antiochus IV is not "as clear as day" the little horn in Daniel 8. He his more a like a "mirage" in a clear sunny day
a. The Wrong time:
The interpreter Angel Gabriel stated Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom… a king….shall stand up. Antiochus IV was the 8th King after him were a lest 20 other seleucid kings. He was one of the early (not the latter) kings, this goes against what the angel Gabriel told Daniel
https://www.livius.org/se-sg/seleucids/seleucid_kings.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes
b. The wrong person
“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise".There is not records of Antiochus IV been in any sense a great king in battles or knowledge. This title is just to big for this king. On the contrary some of their contemporaries expressed "But his often eccentric behavior, capricious actions and even insanity led some of his contemporaries to call him Epimanes ("The Mad One"), a word play on his title Epiphanes
On March 21st, 2011 Preston says:
Erv,
Why not think of it as an opportunity . . . ? 1 Peter 3:15.
On March 21st, 2011 amed soliz says:
After reading the comments in the blogs it was predictable how the comments will come. The title could be different but the essence of the reply will be in the same tone.
When i left my previous believes i never look back again. I did not missed. It appears to me that some of participants in these blogs deep down they really miss the SDA church. Does is good, we miss only persons or things with value!
On March 21st, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
RE this question put forward by Mr Stephen Foster: …may I again ask Dr. Taylor and others here if they believe that Jesus will return, as John 14:1-3 reports (and records) Him to have claimed that He will? [“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.]
I Trevor David Hammond believe in the promise of these verses of scripture referred to above and wait patiently for that Glorious Day when He shall come to take us home. I do so as I have complete trust and faith in the One who has spoken these wonderful words of promise. The One who Loved me and shed His Precious Blood on the Cross of Calvary: Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour! Hallelujah! Amen! Come, Lord Jesus Come!
What a day that will be, when my Jesus I shall see; When I look upon His face, the One Who saved me by His Grace. Then He'll take me by the hand, and lead me to the Promised Land, what a day, Glorious Day that would be!
In Christ
Trevor
On March 21st, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
Elaine can more than take care of her own answers . . . she did answer the questions. Some of our blog brothers/sisters simply do not understand them. However, they think they do.
As I noted before, moving on . . .
On March 21st, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
This thread has deteriorated to personal attacks from all those who disparage those who do not share the exact interpretation of biblical prophecy, as though they are the ones who have been assigned the church's official KGB to ferret out all those with whom they are in disagreement. Has the church given them the authority to define who is, or is not an Adventist? According to the church manual this is an exclusive prerogative of each one's local church board, not anyone who may be thousands of miles away. Lest it be forgotten, even the G.C. could not remove Des Ford's membership in the PUC church–let that be remembered.
SDA "McCarthyism" is not an idle accusation but alive and consistently fuctioning on this site. Unless and until they have been officially assigned guardians of SDA doctrines to cull out the "unfaithful" they will continue to undermine the very church they seek to protect. As C.S. Lewis (?) once wrote: "The truth is like a lion uncaged and needs no protection."
On March 21st, 2011 RonCorson says:
It is funny to see people like Trevor demanding answers to questions when on the other blog he praised Trish for answering my questions without her even giving an answer and leaving another repeated question completely unanswered.
But I will answer I believe in the return of Jesus and being with Christ. No I don't believe that Jesus literally went to prepare mansions or rooms but I assume when the person said literally they were not referencing that part of the text in John…but who knows with some of these people.
As for no use of the Bible texts which SS mentions perhaps he will enjoy my most recent blog which shows the incorrect usage of the Precept upon precept line upon line quotation from Isaiah as used by EGW and others.
https://cafesda.blogspot.com/2011/03/ellen-white-as-lesser-light-intentional.html
On March 21st, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Ron Corson
My request is without malicious intent and unlike your ganging up against Trish in the other blog you refer to. I have made no demand on Dr Taylor, after all he is the 'boss' on this blog and respect his privacy of belief in this regard. I merely made a 'request' for him to answer a reasonable question that Mr Stephen Foster asked. I sincerely apologise if I inadvertently was abrupt, rude or insulting to him; but its not my fault because I only thought that this is the normal way you guys attack each other here. I only tried to be like you guys, that's all!
There is a Bible verse that goes like this: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." [Matt 7:12] A good verse for Mrs Nelson, Dr Taylor and some others, including yourself, to keep in mind when interacting with others with different views.
Ciao for now!
T
On March 21st, 2011 RonCorson says:
Trevor wrote:
There is a Bible verse that goes like this: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." [Matt 7:12] A good verse for Mrs Nelson, Dr Taylor and some others, including yourself, to keep in mind when interacting with others with different views.
That is pretty good, sadly typical of those who don't want to apply the text to themselves however.
On March 21st, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
I think we should all stop arguing, this is not solving anything!
I don't think all of us commenting on Atoday are solving much. I may not agree with 1844 IJ, and the over use of EGW, but I do think the SDA church is the closest to the truth out of all denominations. I know it has its problems with dealing with the nature of Christ, and the Trinity etc.. But I have been around to other churches, and they do not have much to offer either. Presbyterians are stuck with Calvinism, infant baptism, The Salvos don't even preach about the second coming nor do they practise baptism or the lords supper, The baptists are stuck with hellfire and the immortal soul teaching, the lutherans are only half a step out of Catholicism, The pentecostals have the issue over tongues, con artists, false prophets and invading spirits, the Methodist/Uniting Churches have really no message at all anymore, and the list goes on.The question is today, where is the continuation of the reformation? SDA would have to be the closest to that, even with all their problems.
I have come to the conclusion that the more of us who are in the Church that just preach the Gospel of jesus, and try to live by the fruit of the spirit, the more people will come to the church.
I spoke to 2 Pastors last night, and they said that the Church does have problems with some doctrine, but that should not be what keeps us away and from bringing people to christ. I agree with them. They both said that the have not heard or preached an 1844 sermon for nearly 20 years, and that the church has moved on from all that and is more focused on bringing people to Christ.
Cindy has made it clear to me that the Church has got itself in to a stale mate situation, where it cannot apologize to those who were hurt and evicted, otherwise the whole thing will come crumbling down. I do not want to see that happen either.
It is our individual actions that matter most in peoples lives, not the Churches overall standing.
Hope this makes sense
Nath
On March 21st, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Cornerstone 111,
Praise the Lord! I hope and pray for your continued and complete healing. You may have helped bring about some healing to the rest of us.
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
On March 22nd, 2011 karolynkas says:
As a grandma who has put several kids in SDA schools and believes that my children and grandchildren are better in the church than out – I was pretty frustrated by the nature of this discussion. My grandchildren live in a world that is so different than even that which I grew up in! We really need to have discussions that are relevant to them. If they were to read this discussion they would certainly be unimpressed by the church more than most of them already are.
Regarding the IJ – I have no problem with that as long as we can stay away from being legalistic. We are all accountable for our actions – whether we are in the IJ at this time or not.Yes – EGW and the wonderful truths of the SDA faith have been misused in very harmful ways. She would roll over in her grave for how she has been misused – if the dead were not dead.
Now – I am wondering why the discussion regarding if these Japanese earthquakes are to be considered a sign of the end does not include a mention of the nuclear pollution that is resulting from these events. (Three more major earthquakes there tonight as I write.) That is something that could never have been seen by any of the prophets of old. The Bible says that the earth will wear out like a garment and then Jesus will come – Hmmm… I do not think there has been any other time when the non-believers have been so adamant that the world cannot continue as it is. They say the pollution has reached California – but not a lot so far. Poor people in Japan with contaminated food and water. …And I watched the snow and thought about Jesus saying to pray that it will not be winter. So much of the safety and prosperity that we take for granted is really very fickle!
If I remember correctly, Uriah Smith in Daniel and Revelation said that armageddon will be fought in the middle east over oil. I had thought that all the oil of the 1800's came from whales! maybe he was prophetic – I am amazed at what is happening in the middle east the last many years! If I remember rightly there is a schripture that says Jesus will come to destroy those who would destroy the earth – hmmm….. maybe the nukes are flying and He shows up and says, "STOP!" ? (FYI, I envision "all eyes will see Him" as the continents coming together in a great earthquake – they do seem to be puzzle pieces that would fit nicely into a big blob of land!)
I believe that we live in an amazing time when knowledge is increasing at logrithmic rate – and people go to and fro in ways that would be unimaginable for past generations. The world is very small and cultures are mixing – and the younger generations are acutely aware of the crisises in ecology and natural events and wars and such. Does anything that has been said here give anything for the next generations to hold onto for faith or sanity or direction in their lives?
I do believe that The Lord is stirring things up so that people will have a sense that they need to be actively seeking relationship with Him in a personal way. …A way that is meaningful for today's times. I do not believe that the second coming will happen until there is a "great awakening" for our time as the young people seek to know a God Who is strong and rational enough to bring sanity in all of the craziness of this world. …And as the young people explore all the different faiths and cultures seeking to know what is true. That is kind of like what our SDA pioneers did – yes?
But you might all be interested in this from today's news. Of course when the Japanese earthquake and tsnami happened, at least for about 20,000 people, the world came to an end. Here in the Northwest my husband and I said – Chile, New Zeland, Japan – here we are on the Cascadia fault which is overdue…! Those scientists who are monitoring the seizmic activity in this area predict a major quake in the next 50 years – they base that on the small tremors they are picking up. Based on what happened in Japan – they say "the end" is coming for our coastal towns and Aberdeen, WA today is rethinking their tsnami protocol. The scientists say that the end is coming in this area. maybe we should be "listening" without the clouding that our egg-headed theological discussions bring. What really matters about theology is how it affects our eveyday actions and relationships with God and other people. The rest of all of this is an interesting discussion – but eventually we can ask Jesus in person. What practical difference do these ideas make in our actions and relationships? (Yes, I DO believe our theologies make a difference in the ways we live – for better or for worse.)
Yes, Ervin, I also get tired of out-dated theology. Not that it is necessarily wrong – but because it is irrevalent to my children and there are more important spiritual things they need to be having discussed. The world has changed since the times of the SDA pioneers.My children need a theology and leaders that are more contemporary. – So do I.
On March 22nd, 2011 klriley says:
We all believe and interact out of our own life situation. To some, the issue with Ford seems a small event, and I believe in many areas it was. But in Australia it was in many areas a big event, and Nath's church is not the only one that lost many members during the aftermath. Were it not for immigrants, the SDA church in Australia would have been in steady decline from the '8o's onwards. We lost perhaps a 1/4 of our pastors, many teachers and other workers, and no one knows how many members. The church seems not to want to know. What I know from experience is that the church since then has not been the open and trusting church it once was. Many churches are now a collection of worshippers on Sabbath, rather than a community that functions all week.
But I don't believe that removing Ellen White and the IJ from our doctrines would have any significant impact, except maybe to move a few more from the right wing of the church into the independent ministries groups. For most Australian SDAs, Ellen White is a generally reliable and comforting guide to life. Whether she is technically infallible, inerrant or whatever is not that important. Most read her as a devotional/pastoral guide rather than as an infallible theologian. Most members know that the IJ says that we will all be judged before Christ returns, and believe that to be biblical. A few (too many, but not most) members turn to legalism to prepare, most rely on being right with God each day and don't worry about the details. Few really know the connection between 1844 and the IJ, and few actually care. The issue of drums in church will get more people arguing with more heat than either of those two issues. In the last 20 years I have heard more arguments over whether coffee can be kept in the church kitchen than I have heard arguments over Ellen White or the IJ.
I believe Karolynkas is correct – those of us who come here and read and post care about the issues we discuss – but none of us, statistically speaking, is a normal SDA member. My kids don't care about this stuff, 90%+ of the church members at my church don't care, and I seriously doubt anyone outside the SDA church cares at all. Perhaps they should, but I don't believe we have given them a reason to care. How the Ford issue was handled has done far more damage than any doctrines. It was the nastiness that ensued that led most people to walk out the door. I do meet people who have left the church over the way that they were treated, or because the church had become irrelevant to them. I can't recall the last time I met someone who left over doctrine.
Kevin
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
" Uriah Smith in Daniel and Revelation said that armageddon will be fought in the middle east over oil."
Hmmm, could you furnish the source for that statement? Is is no news that many have believed in a future Armageddon in the middle east, but over oil?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 tcalvert71 says:
Thank you Ken, and karolynkas for your comments. You express my sentiments as well.
I am a lifelong SDA; attended our educational institutions, and I am active in my local SDA church. For some reason, nearly six months ago, I decided I needed to make my faith and my beliefs my own. I needed to know the what's and why's of my churchs 28 FB's. Yes, spiritually, I'm a late bloomer, but better late than never. I no longer wanted to accept what I had learned in school and church at face value. I became a doubter, and I believe everyone should go through a similar faze to varied degrees. I became interested in the parts of church history I had never heard. Inevitably, I came across the name Desmond Ford. I had heard his name in passing a few years before, but I never dug into it. Then, one day we had a guest speaker in our church, a speaker who I think would be referred to here as "progressive/liberal". He mentioned the acronym FDR (Ford, Davenport, Rae). Of the three, Ford captured my attention. Since this time, I've read, listened to, and watched much of what Dr. Ford has to say. Plug your ears traditionalists, but I have been greatly blessed by his past and present ministry. I'm grateful he preserved the audio from 30+ yrs of presentations on his website. Thank you Dr. Ford, if you're reading. And I'm grateful to those who stream and record his sermons every two weeks from Australia. I've been through a range of emotions in my research, most prominent of which has been anger. Anger at my own church for the treatment Dr. Ford and others received following GV. I agree, a denomination should be free to remove who it wants from ministry. If a pastors theology does match the party line, then fine, remove them; have that freedom. But the methods, it seems to me, were not filled with Christian principles. Immunity offered, then removed. I don't pretend to have all the answers, and maybe I'm way off base in my assessments. But I know one thing. After spending six months on these blogs, reading, but never posting, I've grown weary. Are these debates pointing us to Christ? It certainly doesn't feel like it. It's been an education on church dynamics for sure. Sitting in the pews on a weekly basis, I never knew all of this division existed. And now that I know, I have to ask myself, for what good is all the arguing? I have come to realize that progressives and fundamentalists must find some common ground, and agree to disagree on issues that have nothing to do with salvation, such as IJ. 1844 won't save me, only Christ did that. I don't believe it's biblical, but I don't fault our pioneers and I don't look down my nose at those who do believe in it. I don't know when Jesus will return, and if I continue to look to him, does it matter when he comes? If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, for me, he's coming tomorrow. Christ didn't ask the thief if he believed in the IJ before he promised him paradise.
Thank you to all who post on AT blogs. It has been a tremendous growth experience for me. Perhaps I just answered my own question. Maybe this is the reason for all the arguing, at least from my perspective.
TC
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
TC, I wonder how many SDAs and former members have had your same experience, either when Ford became almost a household name in Adventism, or only recently, as your experience has been.
The openness to investigate the "official" SDA position with the actual facts are worlds apart, as you own experience revealed, and was revealed to thousands of others. More than the terrible mistakes in theology was the handling of Ford in such a disgraceful manner that it resulted in thousands leaving the church of their birth. This, without any recognition by the church of the fallout and their public lies, yes, lies, of the finding at Glacier View erased all respect for the leadership for many.
Forgiveness is a Christian virtue, but only if it is asked and accepted. At no time did the church EVER confess to having treated Ford in such a despicable manner, but the contuing disparagement of him has totally destroyed what credibility they might have once had.
The church defines what the members should believe: investigation and study must be along the outlines provided in the SS quarterly and with the SOP; individual study is dangerous to one's Adventist membership.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student
TC , interesting conclusion the one that you came up with with . In all your post , you spoke much about "feeling " but never mention " bible study " . I have probably study Ford Theology more than a lot of people here .If some people think that they knew the gospel thanks to Desmond Ford , I don't have a problem with that , I have baptized people who learned about God through the " left behind series ". Salvation is God centered and God can use anybody , Human beings are just instruments God uses to transmit his message .we shouldn't follow any individual but the word of God if we want to grow as Christians , if we follow individuals we will go as far as they go , that was the great error of the Reformation , Lutherans were not willing to go further than what Luther had gone etc . We are called to be disciples of Christ not of any individual . Ford preaches a " cheap gospel " not found in the bible , he has to twist the bible and also he has to change history to defend his "poor arguments ". Elaine , your arguements as always show your lack of information . when is the last time the the SS wrote a quaterly explaining 1844 ? It was 2004 . 6 years ago ! and I can not remember other time when the SS quarterly dealt with 1844 , and Let's see I started reading the quaterly in 1999 ! so enough of that . Ford was treated kindly by the brethren , he continued to get his check from the church , he just couldn't teach in the Adventist church , there is nothing wrong with that , if he did not believe in the Adventist message , he was free to go work for somebody who agreed with his ideas . So stop making Ford a Martyr , he is not . William shea , proved Ford Wrong in his ideas and the TC Iam sure you have never read the Daniel and revelation comitee books ( 7 volumes ) dealing with those issues that Ford Raised . What I have seen is that people don't study the bible anymore , it is all about "feeling "
Peace !
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
TC writes:
"I don't know when Jesus will return, and if I continue to look to him, does it matter when he comes? If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, for me, he's coming tomorrow. Christ didn't ask the thief if he believed in the IJ before he promised him paradise."
You are so right my friend; however the difference is that although none of us knows WHEN Jesus will return, some of us may not believe THAT Jesus will return. The thief to whom you refer was seemingly accepted by Jesus on the basis that he (at least) believed that Jesus HAD a kingdom that He was going to come into, and into which Jesus could save him.
You may understandably tire of the arguing, but it is indeed important that Adventists “hash out” whether we should all believe that Jesus will return—or not.
Elaine writes:
"Forgiveness is a Christian virtue, but only if it is asked and accepted."
This is not my understanding. It is my understanding (of Matthew 6: 14, 15) that we are to forgive in order that we may be forgiven. As far as we (as Christians) are concerned, someone asking for our forgiveness is totally immaterial to them receiving forgiveness from us.
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 RonCorson says:
ss wrote
William shea , proved Ford Wrong in his ideas and the TC Iam sure you have never read the Daniel and revelation comitee books ( 7 volumes ) dealing with those issues that Ford Raised . What I have seen is that people don't study the bible anymore , it is all about "feeling "
So you got that TC go read those 7 volumes and you will show that you study the Bible…apparently in SS's mind Ford does not use the Bible but the study committee does so it is studying the bible to read that. Because it is so powerful it proves Ford wrong, you would think that they would post the books online then but you would be wrong to think that. People like SS want you to believe them without thinking…without them offering any evidence. If nothing else these blogs should teach you to look at the evidence and when people don't offer evidence or lie about the evidence it is because they have a weak argument. I by no means agree with Ford on many things but on the IJ he does present a good case against Adventist tradition and I have never seen anything to refute it yet. And of course Ford was not the first to show the problems with the IJ it is a completely illogical theology and the exegesis is much closer to eisegesis and that is a huge problem as well.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
" Ford preaches a " cheap gospel " not found in the bible , he has to twist the bible and also he has to change history to defend his "poor arguments."
It IS a "cheap gospel." It is freely offered to all, not to any select few. Cheap for the recipient, costly for Christ. That, of course, is your opinion, because you have not identified any change he made in "history."
As for your claim that "William shea, proved Ford Wrong in his ideas," I was secretary for the AAF here in Freno when Ford, van Rooyen, Shea and a Hawiian pastor (no qualified theologian could be found to partner with Shea) had the debate on Ford's thesis. My husband recorded the entire weekend debate and it was sold through Spectrum. Your belief that Shea proved Ford wrong was NOT the consensus of all the attendees. Nor have you shown where Ford's thesis is in error. I have his large volume on Daniel very handy in my library, and I have heard him a number of times explain his position. All the attendees has previously been taught, and largely believed the SDA official position. Ford gave such a thorough explanation that there was little left to question. Shea seemed somewhat pathetic in the face of Ford's very persuasive facts.
So unless you have met, heard, and talked with Ford you are relying on the official position without reading all sides. Please name one non-SDA theologian that is agreement with the SDA position. Wouldn't it be comforting not to be alone in the entire Christian world to hold onto a theory so unique to only one denomination? JW's also have a theology that is "unique." After all, Christians all use the same Bible, don't they?It's the focus on OT book where SDAs find their doctrines–doctrines that they only seek to harmonize with Revelatation–a book that is so ambiguous that most any ruler can be shown to the anti-Christ, depending on the time in history. The original personality was felt to be Nero, and so it changed with each century of history.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Friends,
I would not even give Seminary Student the time of day. His comments have been childish, unintelligent and insulting. He has shown his true nature when he said that the 104 pastors who were sacked unfairly are just losers that the church did not need.
We are not dealing with a Christian here people.
There are 2 types in the SDA Church, Christian/Adventists and Adventist/Adventists. Seminary is an Adventist/Adventist.
Pray for him.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hey everyone,
Here is 2 good sites that give you the daily news concerning end time things:
and
https://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/
Some serious stuff is happening worldwide.
Nath
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student ,
Stephen Foster and TC , The thief on the cross wasn't even baptized , he was also a thief , should we follow his example ? Charles fitch never kept the Sabbath , Luther did not keep the Sabbath either . Have you heard of present truth ? The Seventh day Adventist church is the Remnant of revelation and all those churches are Babylon . Elaine , during the time of the OT who only had knowledge of the true God ? The Greeks ? No . It was the Jews , so you see , it is not about the majority . On biblical grounds , there is no other group of Christians with a better understansding of the gospel than Sdas . Could we say that the Jews in the OT were a majority ? Elaine , that is not a good argument .
Nath , thank you for your prayers . I pray for you as well .
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 pat travis says:
Seminary Student,
You speak boldly without a name or a face. Some might properly call that cowardice…a sin.
Continue your "beginning" studies and also work on the courage to claim by name your convictions…that which has caused others their life and livelihood in history.
regards,
Pat Travis
Oviedo, Fl.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 tcalvert71 says:
SS, I agree with cornerstone111's assesment of your comments, however, I will waste some breath on a short response. I never referred to " feelings" in my post, I mentioned emotions, and last I checked God created these as well. Feelings/emotions are neither right nor wrong, they just are. They serve a significant purpose to humans. Can the devil use them against us? Absolutely. Can they be used for good? Absolutely. Fear and anger when used appropriately motivate us to action. I do study the Bible, but thanks anyway for your concern regarding my study habits. I'll admit, I have not studied enough to convince myself I am infallible, as it appears you have.
Stephen, thank you for your post. I was assuming everyone on this blog thought Jesus would return at some point in the future. I should be thinking more outside the box.
Elaine, Dr. Ford's forum debate in Fresno with Dr. Shea is audio I've been searching for online. Dr. Ford doesn't have this selection on his website, although he as many others. Do you know if it's available on the Spectrum website?
Thank you all for your comments.
TC
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Hansen says:
Brethren, It's my understanding that Seminary student's native language is not English; therefore it is very possible that what he writes comes across as ignorant because he has language issues, not because he is ignorant. Actually, he has affirmed that "I am not stupid" or words to that effect. Of course, after less than an academic year of Hebrew study, he also claimed to "know Hebrew." Again, I would remind you that the meaning of the word "know" as well as its range among native English speakers may be the issue. He also admitted that to say he knew Hebrew was not the best choice of words.
So he has demonstrated a commendable humility in the past. I'm still waiting for him to provide Bible texts which demonstrate that the SDA sanctuary doctrine is the gospel. Possibly he meant to say that the sacrificial system of the sanctuary, with its atoning blood, typified the sacrifice of Christ. Most of us would agree that the good news, the gospel, is about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Seminary student posted a link to an article by Richard Davidson. I believe that he meant to suggest that that article was an authoritative position paper on the SDA position regarding Christ's business in the MHP after his ascension. His colleague, David Hamstra linked to the same article. I had some objections to the article.
Bill Cork, another SDA minister said that because of my use of the Strong's numbering system rather than the original languages, I couldn't possibly be correct and that as far as Cork was concerned he would stay with what Davidson said. I find this position, this drift by Adventist clergy into the arms of Popery puzzling. Not so much in Cork's case, since he, in the past, left Adventism to bow before Rome; however, in the case of Seminary Student, his constant references to works written by scholars, puzzles me. Can Adventism only be understood by "scholars?"
Ray Cottrell a scholar, considered the D+R books a sham, virtually irrelevant to the real issues of Daniel. Ray Cottrell could hardly be considered a hostile witness, or a critic of the denomination, or an apostate.
I once asked Dr. Hasel a question about Revelation which he could have answered with a Yes or No. Instead, he directed me to read a series of books on Revelation. This appeared to be obscurantism at work, a work which Seminary Student has been learning to do at the seminary. "Why make things clear when they can be obscure?" might be turned into a ditty which could be chorused in mockery of people who actually are interested in what the Bible says.
Just remember, If you don't give your tithe to the SDA denomination to support pastors such as Seminary Student, you will be cursed by God and ultimately burned in hell, according to the legalistic SDA understanding of Malachi 3, an interpretation which, I suppose, Seminaty Student espouses.
Seminary Student, do you affirm that if I choose to give my "tithe" to an attractive prostitute who is struggling to support an ill child, rather than give it to you, I will burn in hell?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
This is the Theology from the latest Christian group that predicts the 2nd coming on May 21st, 2011. The Millerites were not the first group to put a date on the end of the world, and they certainly are not the last.
TIMING OF IMPORTANT EVENTS IN HISTORY
11,013 BC—Creation. God created the world and man (Adam and Eve).
4990 BC—The flood of Noah’s day. All perished in a worldwide flood. Only Noah, his wife, and his 3 sons and their wives survived in the ark (6023 years from creation).
7 BC—The year Jesus Christ was born (11,006 years from creation).
33 AD—The year Jesus Christ was crucified and the church age began (11,045 years from creation; 5023 calendar years from the flood).
1988 AD—This year ended the church age and began the great tribulation period of 23 years (13,000 years from creation).
1994 AD—On September 7th, the first 2300-day period of the great tribulation came to an end and the latter rain began, commencing God’s plan to save a great multitude of people outside of the churches (13,006 years from creation).
2011 AD—On May 21st, Judgment Day will begin and the rapture (the taking up into heaven of God’s elect people) will occur at the end of the 23-year great tribulation. On October 21st, the world will be destroyed by fire (7000 years from the flood; 13,023 years from creation).
ONE DAY IS AS 1000 YEARS
The child of God has learned from the Bible that the language of Genesis 7 has a twofold meaning:
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Historically, as God spoke these words, there were seven days remaining for Noah, his family, and the animals to get into the safety of the ark; but spiritually (and the Bible is a spiritual book), God was speaking to all of the people of the world and was declaring that sinful mankind would have 7000 years to find refuge in the salvation provided by Jesus Christ. How can we know that? We know this is so based on what we read in 2 Peter, chapter 3:
2 Peter 3:6-8 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The context of 2 Peter 3 is extremely important! In the first few verses, God refers us to the destruction of the world by the flood during Noah’s day. Then we find an interesting admonition that we ought not to be “ignorant” of one thing, which is, 1 day is as 1000 years, and 1000 years is as 1 day. Immediately following this bit of information is a very vivid description of the end of the present world by fire.
What could God be telling us by identifying 1 day along with 1000 years?
Since we recently have discovered the Biblical calendar of history on the pages of the Bible, we find that the flood of Noah’s day occurred in the year 4990 BC. This date is completely accurate (for further information on the Biblical timeline of history, please go to: www.familyradio.com). It was in the year 4990 BC that God revealed to Noah that there would be yet 7 days until the flood of waters would be upon the earth. Now, if we substitute 1000 years for each one of those 7 days, we get 7000 years. And when we project 7000 years into the future from 4990 BC, we find that it falls on the year 2011 AD.
4990 + 2011 = 7001
Note: When counting from an Old Testament date to a New Testament date, always subtract one year because there is no year zero, resulting in:
4990 + 2011 – 1 = 7000 years exactly.
The year 2011 AD will be the 7000th year from the flood of Noah’s day. It will be the end of the length of time given to mankind to find grace in God’s sight. This means that the time to find refuge in Christ has grown extremely short. We are only a little ways off from the year 2011 AD!
It is not unusual that God’s people have been given insight into the timing of the end of the world. Actually, the Bible tells us this is normally the case. In times past, God has warned His people of approaching periods of judgment:
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
JUDGMENT DAY: MAY 21st, 2011
We know that the year 2011 is the 7000th year from the flood. We also know that God will destroy this world in that year. But when in 2011 will this occur?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Here is a news article on the Christians claiming the end in May 21, 2011. And Yes, the Millerites do get a mention.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40885541/ns/us_news-life/
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Tom says:
Question
Could all you folks on both sides getting all shook up here, cause another earthquake? I think this blog is already equivalent to at least a 6 or 7 shaker.
Yes indeed let's move on. Should I call AAA for a tow. Quite a sand trap we're spinning our wheels in here.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Tom says:
Cornerstone
Ah, so a new date has been set by someone for the end. Hmm May 21, 2011. Don't think so. As near as I can figure, the best way to determine when the end will be is when all the expiration dates on everything is the same day.
Don't take my sarcasm personally. I'm just dizzy from all this merry-go-round ride we have been on here.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, tcalvert71
I have only been on AT for a few weeks now after stumbling upon it. I am a firm believer in the fundamental doctrines held by the SDA Church and also appreciate it's remarkable history and development in spite of all the odds stacked against it. It does hurt me to see the open disrespect and worse still, disregard of Ellen White writings, the insults levelled at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, BRI, Pastor Ted Wilson and not forgetting the 'traditionalist' term used in a derogatory way to label those who hold true to the fundamental teachings of our Church. These 'traditionalists' are falsely classed as non-progressives, non-thinkers and non-matured, which appeals to their target group of young adult SDA's, third and fourth generation, who 'sit in the pews' in terms of their knowledge and understanding of our Church and it's teachings. They take the spiritual matters of the Holy Bible into the Intellectual, Scientific and Socio-Political arena and from that platform question Biblical Truths which are easily swayed with the wind depending on the 'powers that be' to such an extent that sinful acts and behaviour clearly revealed as an abomination are culturally now accepted as non-sin. That is the danger of this type this school of thought. Does it edify the church? Does it bring sinners to Christ? I leave that for you to decide. I do however, respect your position and right to your belief. God has led me to my position so far and I hope and pray He will continue to lead me on. I pray the same for you and others too.
P.S. I would proceed cautiously with some of the 'advice' you get here. "They treated me badly" is an old line used by disgruntled people to win favour and support. A case of sour grapes always has a can of worms in it! Do you not also get angry about all the many unnumbered souls that are somewhere out there or worse still, in their graves, who left the SDA Church and maybe even Christ, as a result of Dr Ford's teachings? Just look at an example of what sadly happened at Cornerstone111's church; but obviously they blame the church as the cause of it. Just like in usual church gossip they always blame the 'nice guy'. I've seen it so many times in Church politics where the 'nice' guy gets accused of 'treating' those who are the problem with harshness or in an unchristian manner and for not showing enough love. I still think that most SDA’s still love Dr Ford and those that left but not the teachings and discord it brought. He had his time to be heard and he was after a reasonable extended period told: "How 'bout No!" Much of Dr Ford's teachings is basically SDA stuff but that was mixed with his own scholarly insights. He too has a right to his belief but not to impose his view on the SDA Church. He basically 'piggy backed' or can I say 'capitalized' on the comprehensive doctrine of the SDA Church to find ways to promote his own school of thought. That’s just the way it is…
You say you've been on AT for six months and now have started to search. Good for you! In my opinion the target audience of the Progressive's on AT are most likely those SDA's who more or less 1] Haven't studied our Church History 2] Haven't studied the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation 3] Those who just sit in the pews like many 3rd and fourth generation Adventists 4] Those unconverted and living in sin who need to justify and gain sympathy for their wrong doing 5] Those that have been caught off guard by all of this 6] SDA critics and agnostics who piggy back on this type of thinking 7] Secular, culturally correct, anything goes ‘human moralist’ approach SDA’s. The ‘traditionalists’ stick out like a sore thumb in this regard.
You may have noticed that I intentionally didn’t mention the term ‘Ford and ilk’ in my comments above … lest it offend some brothers and sisters.
Ciao for now
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 22nd, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hi Cornerstone111
RE your comment: "I would not even give Seminary Student the time of day. His comments have been childish, unintelligent and insulting."
Dr Ford was given a chance to have his say. Let's give Seminary Student a chance to have his say. We don't want to do to him what the SDA church is accused of doing to Dr Ford and his followers. Lets show love and forgiveness to Seminary Student our fellow brother. Maybe he can explain what he meant by the term 'losers' as this is a free thinking progressive approach that is advocated on this Blogosphere. I wonder too who will speak on behalf of 'traditionalists' who have all those derogatory insults hurled at them regularly from within and outside the SDA church. I guess we can, as usual, take it with a pinch of salt…
My small bit of advice to Seminary Student and others is don't let all this get to you. Don't succumb to the provocation or 'bait' as put forth by some. Rather bow out in a Christlike manner which I will do should I reach that stage. It is a fact though that some on this Blogosphere do exactly what Seminary Student is accused of but get away with it by 'pulling rank' or been in the right 'pole' position to benefit their 'birds of a feather' faction.
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Trevor,
Don't be arrogant, Seminary Students comments the other day were not only disgusting, but non-Christian. If that is what you stand for as well, then your fruits have been known.
The danger with SDA traditionalism is, self righteousness, perfectionism, arrogance, and a total lack of love for your neighbours.
It is time to snap out of this rubbish, there are many different groups inside Adventism, its about time the church needs to realise this, and I do believe it is starting too. Jon Paulien's new series Revelationhope is 99% in line with Ford's teachings, the church is changing, the truth is getting out.
The church has to come right with the Gospel and scripture before the end, otherwise it is not going to even play a significant part.
Des Ford has the Gospel whether you like it or not, and he preaches it well. This had caused a lot of jealousy against him from other scholars and ministers over the years, but they will be judged for their jealousy. And there are many great Christians within Adventism who do not hold the Traditional view, and guess what? they are still Adventists . So the church would go on if it came to the truth. It is time to put our trust in God, and not into a denomination run by men.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hi Tom,
Ah, so a new date has been set by someone for the end. Hmm May 21, 2011. Don't think so. As near as I can figure, the best way to determine when the end will be is when all the expiration dates on everything is the same day.
Yes another date, and the point is, you have another group just like the Millerites, who have used Daniel to come up with a date, theirs being May 21 2011. I don't know if you read the article, but the millerite great disappointment gets a mention. I wonder if they will end up with a group that comes out of this, that tries to come up with an excuse about why Christ did not come back in May 21 2011, and then claims to be God's chosen remnant movement that he rose up for these last days with the only true message from Revelation?
We are living in interesting times.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 CONTROLFREAK111 says:
Don't be arrogant, Seminary Students comments the other day were not only disgusting, but non-Christian. If that is what you stand for as well, then your fruits have been known.
Hmm…the father of lies begats liars, so how about some truth if you are talking about displaying the fruits of the spirit hey nath?
I'll start, you aren't an SDA, you've never been an SDA, you have never been a member of an SDA church, you do not currently attend any SDA church, all that you have claimed is exagerated and heresay simply to push your agenda (whatever that is?) and put out some sort of false sense of authority, just like your credibility of which you have none, zilch!
BTW don't try and prove me wrong on this it will backfire on you, I'm just saying.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student ,
It is a dangerous thing to follow a person , Nath , when I said that those 104 Pastors were "losers" well maybe I went too far ,But this is my point , the church did not die because of those 104 left the church , actually the Adventist church is growing . There was no need of those who would not be faithful to the gospel . Hansen , you can do with your tithe whatever the Holy Spirit and scripture tells you . For Your information I don't get paid by the church . I paid myself for seminary , I have a small business and I when I leave seminary I plan to continue doing that and doing ministry , kind of a " tentmaker " on the 1844 IJ , I believe that it is the gospel , and TC emotions are good thing but I prefer a " thus says the Lord " . Let me show you why , 1844 IJ is the gospel . Daniel 12 :9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Nath ,I guess the treatment is affecting your mood , that is ok . I will continue to pray for you .
BY the way , I wasn't alive when Ford debated Shea but if some one has $6.99 go to the ABC and buy "selected studies on prophetic interpretation " and read it and tell me about it .
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Hansen says:
Seminary Student, Am I understanding you right? Have you yourself read the books which you say refuted Ford and conclusively defended the traditional position? It sounds as if you have not. Again, perhaps the issue is language.
I commend you for being clever enough to establish a business which will not make you beholden to a denominational doctrinal scheme. Really, that is a great accomplishment.
Are you familiar with the Online Bible? It is a free software program which make Bible study much easier and faster. If you can use OL, you can do searches in Greek and Hebrew in the NT, LXX, and MT. If the languages are a problem, you can use Strong's numbers.
Other languages are also available:
I hope you will be blessed oin your continuing study.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 amed soliz says:
Recently I took the challenge to read for hours Dr Ford and Dr Shea writings in regard to the "little horn" in Daniel 8. Also i studied several times Daniel 8 and look Antiochus IV in different sources of history.
Honestly i can say. the little horn in Daniel 8 is to big for Antiochus IV, Dr Ford explanation of the little horn is not sustainable to rigorous analysis.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
In Jewish history, for whom Daniel was primarily to assist, A.E. IV was not "to little" as Judas M. was pivotal in Jesus having a temple to go to and "cleanse" at His first appearing.
Daniel gives an "overall view through the time of Rome and the inauguration of the the toes" and the "coming" of the kingdom with Messiah's appearing that will not pass away. Revelation gives us the better/fuller details of the continuing kingdoms of the gentiles vs. the "continuing 'coming' of the Messianic kingdom of the now and not yet."
Christ received the kingdom at His ascension in victory and reigns in authority and glory as a "priest king" as Hebrews also informs us in the inauguration of a king-priest intercessor who is completely unlike that of the levitical priesthood. This king-priest reign on the throne from His ascension until all His enemies are placed under His feet at His appearing…is also not like that of the levitical priesthood!
Our IJ view is an "underdeveloped eshatology" of Christ who reigns in glory on the throne "now" as our king-priest!
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 reinosaa says:
Pat I have a problem with your argument , Is Jewish history the interpreter of scripture ? we need to ask the question , Does Jewish tradition become the infallible interpreter of scripture ? I think it is important to answer that . IF we follow in that logic , The Jews believe that Elijah was going to come again , Did he come ? The NT tells us that it was JOhn the baptist . What does Jewish tradition say about Jesus ? IS he the Mesiah for them ? You see all the implications to your argument ? Tell me what do you think ? blessings ,
Pastor Reinosa
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hey everyone,
Here is part 4 of the Riverside meeting with Walter Martin and Desmond Ford. This episode deals with White's plagiarism, if she was like Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy, and much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyk6gENgDzY
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Rob Hirle says:
Hi Cornerstove111,
That was a very good listen, thankyou for posting kind sir.
Rob
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 CONTROLFREAK111 says:
Care to address any of these Cornerstove?
I'll start, you aren't an SDA, you've never been an SDA, you have never been a member of an SDA church, you do not currently attend any SDA church, all that you have claimed is exagerated and heresay simply to push your agenda (whatever that is?) and put out some sort of false sense of authority, just like your credibility of which you have none, zilch!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
" Is Jewish history the interpreter of scripture ? we need to ask the question , Does Jewish tradition become the infallible interpreter of scriptur? "
Yes, because we would not have the Bible we have today were it not for the Jews. They both wrote it, and long before writing, it was orally handed down and with telling and retelling, there was a form of Midrash: the priests or one who was the story teller, interpreted it each time it was retold. This is the practice and is outlined by James Kugel, the Orthodox Jew, professor of Hebrew History at Harvard.
No story which is handed down for centuries will be exactly alike in every detail. The writers of the NT were all ethnic Jews, except Luke, who is considered a Greek, but where is that authenticated?
All readers of the Bible today have accepted the Jewish version of the Bible. There is no other choice. We either accept their accounts or simply make up our own stories.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Cornerstone111 says:
Hi Rob,
Thanks mate, stay tuned, I am going to be posting up Walter martin and Desmond Ford on the Bible Answer Man show taking calls from Adventists about certain questions on doctrine etc..
Some interesting questions and answers are presented.
God Bless
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 pat travis says:
Reinossa,
Thanks for your comments.
I don't really understand your objection. Are you suggesting Daniel was primarily for the Christian Church instead of God's covenant promises to Israel? To me the captivity and restoration promises of the OT prophets to the nation of Israel are primary. It is upon their rejection of Messiah that their "national" house and history was left to them desolate.
Daniel wrote primarily to the Jews concerning their history and how the gentile kingdoms would interact with them. He told them of the coming Messiah ch.9. Sooo, yes Daniel is primarily to them not some " Dan.8 re-application 2300 yrs. later to the SDA church and 1844."
Hebrews and Rev. are the re-applications of the King-priest and the relation of the gentile kingdoms to the Israel of God/Christian church/believers "inaugurated Kingdom of Christ" not fulfilled to the OT nation of Israel because of it's conditionality on obedience and acceptance of Messiah.
So yes, of all things, the OT was primarily concerning the history of the jews as it relates to the Abrahamic, Mosaic and Davidic covenants.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, All I found the following somewhere. What's your take on it?
Secular predictions:
End of the sun as we know it: Scientists are quite confident that life on earth cannot last much more than another five billion years. At about that time, the sun will become unstable. It will expand into a red giant and engulf the Earth. However, none of this will happen in our near future.
A massive asteroid could theoretically hit the earth at any time. Such collisions seem to happen at irregular intervals, many tens of millions of years apart. When they occur, many species of life forms — plant and animal — are wiped out on earth. When we originally published this essay in the year 2000, we wrote:
"A major hit is most unlikely to happen in the next year or two — if it were, astronomers would probably have detected it by now. But it could happen a decade from now, a millennium in the future, or many tens of millions of years from now. It is just a matter of time!"
It turns out that this is wishful thinking. In the year 2002, astronomers detected an asteroid the size of a football field. It passed close to the earth — about one third of the way between the earth and the moon. The shocking thing is that they only detected the asteroid after it had made its closest approach to the earth and was starting to leave the area! If it had hit the earth, it would have had the power equal to a hydrogen bomb. If it landed in a populated area, it would have obliterated an entire city. We cannot count on any significant advance warning of an asteroid hit, unless better systems are put in place.
Other doomsday scenarios: Many dozens of prophecies have been made which predict the end of the world (or at least a major catastrophe) in our near future, due to:
Massive shifts in the earth's axis. Melting ice caps. World-wide floods. Weather-related natural disasters. World War III. Attacks by space aliens. etc.
However, these types of catastrophes have been predicted many times in the past with a 100% failure rate. It is unlikely that any of them will come true in our near-term future.
Cheers!
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat
- i'll agre with your comment but is very difficult when the angel Gabriel in his interpretation has pretty specific characteristics to identify the little horn.
- The Wrong time:
The interpreter Angel Gabriel stated Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time (the hebrew word 'achariyth refers to the end) of their kingdom… a king….shall stand up. Antiochus IV was the 8th King after him were a lest 20 other seleucid kings. He was one of the early (not the latter) kings. This goes against what the angel Gabriel told Daniel the angel was very specific https://www.livius.org/se-sg/seleucids/seleucid_kings.html.
- The wrong person:
“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue (chiydah= enigma) , will arise". There is not records of Antiochus IV been in any sense a great king in battles or knowledge. This title is just to big for this king. On the contrary some of their contemporaries expressed "But his often eccentric behavior, capricious actions and even insanity led some of his contemporaries to call him Epimanes ("The Mad One"), a word play on his title Epiphanes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes
- there are many more serious objections to apply the title of the little horn to Antiochus IV.
What ever i'll accept i try to analyze, i don't assimilated just because an authority say so. at the end i'm responsible for what i believe. I'm very rigorous with the information that is in my reach
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 reinosaa says:
Pat ,those are good questions the ones you asks , I am trying to prepare my Sabbath sermon and so many things , so pray for me . The Angel tells Daniel many times that some part of the book are for the time of the end . Daniel 12 gives some times prophecies that are for the time of the end . You touch a very important point which is conditional prophecy , yes there were some prophecies that were conditional for the nation of Israel , at the same time there are Apocaliptic prophecies .But that maybe it is another topic and we don't have the space or time to deal with that here . Going back to Jewish traditon , Maybe I didn't explain my point well . SO I will give it another try , There is no record on Anthiocos Epiphanes IV only outside of the bible . I agree that there is biblical tradition but there is also unbiblical tradition . So we can learn from Jewish tradition but I won't equal Jewish tradition with scriptural biblical writings . There are not the same ! I don't know if I explain my point , please help me out .
God bless ,
Pastor Reinosa
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 Tom says:
Where did CONTROLFREAK come from? Such rancor and nastiness. TSk, tsk! Erv, I think it may be time to pull in the porch on this blog. About the only united front going here is a firing squad formed in a circle. Shall we call it unfriendly fire?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 23rd, 2011 CONTROLFREAK111 says:
Tom says: Where did CONTROLFREAK come from? Such rancor and nastiness. TSk, tsk! Erv, I think it may be time to pull in the porch on this blog. About the only united front going here is a firing squad formed in a circle. Shall we call it unfriendly fire? BTW this is called the WWW not some cosy little back room in case you didn't realise and when a person decides to air dirty laundry in said World Wide Environment using only the tiniest residue of truth it needs to be nipped in the bud, and unfortunately this is nothing new. That is all I need to divulge at this point in time.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Reinosa,
When you say there is no record of Antiochus Epihanes IV other than the Bible, it only demonstrates your lack of information.
In less than one minute, this is what I found on Googled and there is much more:
" Antiochus IV Epiphanes From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Epiphanes (disambiguation). Antiochus IV Epiphanes Basileus of the Seleucid Empire Bust of Antiochus IV at the Altes Museum in Berlin. Reign 175 BC – 164 BC Born 215 BC Died 164 BC (Age 52) Predecessor Seleucus IV Philopator Successor Antiochus V Eupator Wife Laodice IV Offspring Antiochus V Eupator Laodice VI Alexander Balas (spurious) Antiochis possibly Laodice (wife of Mithridates III of Pontus) Dynasty Seleucid dynasty Father Antiochus III the Great Mother Laodice III
Antiochus IV Epiphanes ('God Manifest';[1] pronounced /ænˈtaɪ.əkəs ɛˈpɪfəniːz/, Greek: Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανὴς; born c. 215 BC; died 164 BC) ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC. He was a son of King Antiochus III the Great and the brother of Seleucus IV Philopator. His original name was Mithridates; he assumed the name Antiochus after he assumed the throne.
Notable events during the reign of Antiochus IV include his near-conquest of Egypt, which led to a confrontation that became an origin of the metaphorical phrase, "line in the sand" (see below), and the rebellion of the Jewish Maccabees.
He assumed divine epithets, which no other Hellenistic king had done, such as Θεὸς Ἐπιφανὴς 'manifest god' and after his defeat of Egypt, Νικηφόρος 'bringer of victory'.[2] But his often eccentric behavior, capricious actions and even insanity led some of his contemporaries to call him Epimanes ("The Mad One"), a word play on his title Epiphanes.[1][3]
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed and Renossa,
That Dan.12:1-4 in general expressions does tell us of an end of all things is true but the expression “time of the end” does not always in prophecy refer to the "absolute end" but the “end happenings and judgment of the particular prophecy at hand in discussion.” i.e.Hab.2:3–
"For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it b will certainly come and will not delay. "
The description by Gabriel is of Dan.8:21-27 is specifically naming Greece and the 4 divisions of Greece of which A.E. is a latter ruler of one division that is historically attacking Israel' and it's Temple worship services.
Please tell me why we should not accept the understanding of this significant recorded event concerning the Temple in Jewish history and the Maccabean revolt resulting in the festival of lights/Hanukkah but rather accept a SDA interpretation for which there is no “recorded historical event” other than one claiming a visionary interpretation of a non-verifiable change of heavenly events. (EGW, Edson) When did any other Greek presence of the four divisions challenge Israel at a later date under a "latter horn" with the rising power of the kingdom of Rome annulling Greek presence and power?
Is there not something wrong with this picture and the verification that a prophecy has been fulfilled according to the parameters of the prophecy at hand?
So you question why we should accept Jewish tradition of a historical recorded event (Book of 1 Maccabees 1:10 and Josephus for beginners) concerning Dan.8:14– and rather accept a SDA traditional interpretation which has no means of testing it’s historicity of fulfillment.
Please help me…I think I am the one who should be “confused” along with the major conservative expositors of the text..
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 laffal says:
Pat,
Please tell me why we should not accept the understanding of this significant recorded event concerning the Temple in Jewish history and the Maccabean revolt resulting in the festival of lights/Hanukkah but rather accept a SDA interpretation for which there is no “recorded historical event” other than one claiming a visionary interpretation of a non-verifiable change of heavenly events. (EGW, Edson) When did any other Greek presence of the four divisions challenge Israel at a later date under a "latter horn" with the rising power of the kingdom of Rome annulling Greek presence and power?
My only attempt to answer your question is this, the Ark of the Covenant was not in the Temple at Jerusalem. The temple had be defiled and destroyed long ago. So to this end, AE's actions were in essence irrelevant. Yes, what he did was a travesty to the Jews and their cultic rituals, but in the scheme of all things Ezekiel had already made it clear:
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezekiel 21:26-27 KJV)
After Zedekiah, God would not recognize anybody as king of Israel until the time of the Christ.
As for the SDA interpretation, we need to be careful about straining at gnats and swallowing camels. I can't begin to discount what EGW / Edson experienced, because I can't say how the following text comes into play:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11:19 KJV)
In addition, there is only one explaination for the events of Revelation chapter 10 … 1844
Peace
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 pat travis says:
Laffal,
Thanks for your response and I appreciate your effort but find it problematic.
Am I to assume that because the Ark was either hidden or taken in the Babylonian captivity the Temple and it's services could no longer be "defiled?"
Why then the effort and rebuilding by the Jews of it in 515 B.C and why God's prophetic command to do so with the use of Cyrus? Why later Ezra and Neh. and the building of a wall post temple completion that we laboriously attribute to 457? Why did Jesus bother to go there and "clense" the temple if it was thus in a state of continual defilement post Babylonian captivity without the ark? See my difficulty?
The sacrifices continued in the cultic system and A.E interupted those sacrifices with multiple transgressions including a pig on the alter. Jesus later said the sacrifices and temple were being defiled by theives and robbers and money changers. Why, if it was a long gone conclusion of permanent defilement?
Rev.10 gives no temporal time and John's continuing prophesies are always to be shared by the church community until all is fulfilled…and where God is on His throne (OT MHP type) and Christ as king-priest on the heavenly throne since His ascension there is always law, judgment and mercy taking place.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
"In addition, there is only one explaination for the events of Revelation chapter 10 … 1844."
How convenient tha a prediction is made about an event in heaven that cannot possibly be refuted! How? To predict that a fulfillment in a distant planet would be no different. Tell us: how can anyone claim the audacity of knowing the events, furniture, and actions in heaven? Does anyone even know where heaven is located? This is hubris of the worst kind and the fact that skeptics would even question the validity of such a prediction is dismissed with lacking faith!
This is especially relevant in that the entire origin of Adventism was based on a faulty prediction! That there are true believers who don't say: "Fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." This should apply to all those who refuse to question a failed prophecy and yet the same group predicts another–cleverly contrived to be impossible to be verified. Were the original Millerties who left not the smart ones?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
"In addition, there is only one explaination for the events of Revelation chapter 10 … 1844."
How convenient tha a prediction is made about an event in heaven that cannot possibly be refuted! How? To predict that a fulfillment in a distant planet would be no different. Tell us: how can anyone claim the audacity of knowing the events, furniture, and actions in heaven? Does anyone even know where heaven is located? This is hubris of the worst kind and the fact that skeptics would even question the validity of such a prediction is dismissed with lacking faith!
This is especiall relevant in that the entire origin of Adventism was based on a faulty prediction! That there are true believers who don't answer "Fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." This should apply to all those who refuse to hesitate on a failed prophecy and yet believe the same group predicts another–cleverly contrived to be impossible to be verified? Were the original Millerties who left not the smart ones?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 reinosaa says:
pat , I am trying to follow your comments . when you mention " Jesus cleansing of the temple ' are speaking when he clean the temple of all the merchants ? Or what are yuu talking about.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 24th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hi Renossa,
One should consider what Christ did in Jn.2:15,16 as a beginning fulfillment of Mal.3:1-4. Christ is cleansing the temple of falehood and false worship practices and making attempted purifying of the sons of Levi.
The Jewish nations rejection of Him brought the curses of Mal.4:6b "their house being left desolate" Mt.24:2.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Elaine Nelson wrote: This thread has deteriorated to personal attacks from all those who disparage those who do not share the exact interpretation of biblical prophecy, as though they are the ones who have been assigned the church's official KGB to ferret out all those with whom they are in disagreement. Has the church given them the authority to define who is, or is not an Adventist?
No, but this blog is written by, and full of, people who "look like ducks, quack like ducks and walk like ducks" but would have us believe they are chickens. (Or to be more accurate, are wolves in sheep's clothing.) We're just doing our bit to expose them. It's not called Adventist Today for nothing.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 pagophilus says:
Elaine Nelson writes: How convenient that a prediction is made about an event in heaven that cannot possibly be refuted! How? To predict that a fulfillment in a distant planet would be no different. Tell us: how can anyone claim the audacity of knowing the events, furniture, and actions in heaven?
The Bible tells us about the furniture in heaven. Revelation is full of sanctuary imagery. Revelation and other parts of the Bible tell us what's going on in heaven. Tell me, where did the original "fall" take place? Where did Satan get kicked out of? Of course we know what goes on in heaven. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't take place. What did Jesus say to Thomas? "….blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29. This is where faith comes in. If you have no faith, you will simply doubt.
If you want to refute the 1844 doctrine, try to refute it biblically. But make sure you don't invent meanings for Hebrew or Greek words that are not valid. Make sure your response doesn't contradict other parts of the Bible. Be sure we will analyse your answer critically and show you where you got it wrong.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat says A.E. is a latter ruler of one division that is historically attacking Israel' and it's Temple worship services.
"And in the latter time ( at the end) of their kingdom … a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. AE was not latter ruler of the seleucid dynasty the angel was very specific about the first king… also i believe he was very specific about when the little horn would appear at the end of their Kingdom. other wise is just playing with words,More to come after
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
One must understand the focus in vs.23 on "the rebellious nature of the wicked" in determining the appropriate time of "latter."
One must also consider the nature of "rebellion" that brings on a desolator of the temple cultus.
Considering these aspects, at the time of these events there was a departure of many Jews from the traditions of the Jewish cultus including "reverse circumcision" to appear like the custom of the gentiles. There was also in this "latter" time a conflict over the High Priesthood and general slackness of the cultic system. (Josephus)
Therefore AE was allowed to come as a "desolator" of the temple in the fulness of the sins of the rebellious. Ultimately the Maccabees, distressed over the internal and external situation, overcome A.E. and restore the proper cultus again to the temple.
So the focus is on the rebellious and a "latter king" that deals with Israel at the appropriate time to deal out "curses" till the appropriate restoration could be made.
This, I suggest, is the way we are to deal with the "abominations that causes desolation" motif which occured in the Babylonian desolation, A.E.,Titus and when in the latter days "judgment must begin at the house of God" and 2 Thess.2:2-4.
In other words, rebellion to covenant by the professed people of God at varying times in "Israels history", brings desolation at God's hand/permission to the cultic practices with the desire as Dan.9 speaks of till punishment of the rebels has occured and the awaited proper Restoration takes place.
Make sense? Without understanding the underlying meaning "latter" is not properly comprehended in dealing with the "time of the end" context of this particular prophecy.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 laffal says:
Pat,
Please pardon the delay in my response.
Yes, I am suggesting that the absence of the AofC was / is a determining factor in the question of defiling the sanctuary. Without the AofC, there is no Shikinah, which simply states that the presence of God was not there. What's there to defile? A building?
Which leads us to your question as to why would God commission the rebuilding fo the temple / wall in Jerusalem. The Jews were still in need of the instructive / interactive purposes of the sanctuary services. Reliance upon the cultic services apart from the proper understanding of the grace of God, which was to bring salvation to humanity, in the giving of His Son, was a huge problem for Israel, and old covenant theology. God wanted to prepare His covenant people to receive His Son in the fullness of time.
Why did Jesus cleanse the temple twice? They were perverting the gospel of the grace of God to which the temple & it's services pointed to in the reality of the ministry of Christ.
In regards to AE's activities in the temple. From God's perspective, what would be worse, AE offering a pig on the brazen alter in a temple that has not AofC which was a symbol of His presence, or having the priesthood worshiping the sun with their backs to the MHP wherein was the AofC and His presence? I can see how the Jews would be beside themselves because of AE's activities, but that does not mean that it warranted such a sizable recognition by God as is being given. I too believe that AE as the little horn is a reach to say the least. It is too big for him. At best, his activities in Jerusalem covered a period of approximately 2 years.
As for Revelation 10, it was fulfilled in the 1844 event. But yet, if the historicist method of interpretation is set aside for the apotalesmatic method, your point is well taken. At this present time, I'm not prepared to set aside the method that the reformers used. Why? Because of the parallel time lines established by the historicist method give a clear outline of history & prophecy. This is what I believe to be heaven's intent is giving the specific prophecies of Danel & Revelation.
Peace
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat your understanding of Daniel is preterist for me this point of view is not complete. Here are some of the objections
The little horn “grew exceedingly great” toward the south, east and glorious land. AE should have exceeded the Persian and Greek empires in greatness. He did not!
LH supposed to conquer the south, east and glorious land. AE father’s Is the one who conquer Palestine and the east. AE went only to delta of the Nile for 2 years; he did not conquer Alexandria and literally chicken out when the roman pro consul treated with a war. He did not “succeed in whatever he did”
He was not “master of intrigue or eningma” on the contrary his nick name was "epimanes (the mad one)
AE desecrated but he did “not cast down” the temple
AE was not a the latter king
AE does mot meet exactly the 2300 “evenings and mornings” no matter how is computed.
The origin of the LH: four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven out of one of them came another horn. From what he came, from one of the horn of from one the four wind of the heaven? The Hebrew grammatical structure favor the origin to the of the four winds by the gender of the closer words
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 25th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat in reference to 2 Thess 2;
I encourage reading
PAUL'S PROPHETIC OUTLINE IN 2 THESSALONIANS 2"
https://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=660&journal=1&type=pdf
also End-Time Prophesies of the Bible By H.K. LaRondelle Pages 61 to 80
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 pat travis says:
Laffal and Amed,
I've been on an Anniversary weekend and have not answered your Friday post. I actually feel that my last post above does answer the broad aspect and had Hans in his book pp.61-80 included AE in the "typology progression" we would be in perfect agreement of typology and the "abomination/desecration" motif. Weather he privately would allow for that Dan 8:13- progression typology including A.E. will now in hs death remain silent excepting those who knew him "really" best.
Obviously your main objections are to the way A.E would hinder the SDA interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy. So if you doubt the actual historicity of the way A.E affected the Jews including rededication of a defiled temple and Hanukkah…I simply will repeat…How do you show historicity of an "event" in heaven in 1844 that we are truly uncapable of showing as being a legitimate prophecy?
Some more comments after the weekend.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 pat travis says:
A quick note,
Matthew Henry's comments regarding Dan.8 are illustrative of A.E.'s expansion to the South and East as a "little/lesser" horn of the fourfold division than the previous Alexander the Great.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc4.Dan.ix.html
regards,
pat
PS. Amed, "my understanding and others of likemind" is not preterist nor historicism. It is understanding the progression of the typology and motif's of scripture as the biblical eschatology develops
https://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48939692.html
This Jewish website is a historic understanding #28,#29 of the Greek persecution under A.E. and the associated "civil war" in Judaism over "religious ideas."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
No one should be under the illusion that Adventists will ever accept the almost universal explanation of Daniel's prophecy as the desecration of their temple and the persecution that ensued. Even though it was, like Joseph Smith. never seen by anyone other than the man to whom it as revealed, nevertheless, it has becone the major pillar of the beginning of Adventism, just as Smith's revelation and translation of the golden tablets was the impetus for the Mormon church. Both are equally spurious and cannot be confirmed, only believed.
Religions are often preposterious and totally irrational. How many today would immediately accept such an event described by a lone individual's explanation of something that could never be verified? If that is the meaning of faith, it can only be believed by those who have dispensed with rational thought.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 Ervin Taylor says:
Elaine has suggested that "Religions are often preposterous and totally irrational. How many today would immediately accept such an event described by a lone individual's explanation of something that could never be verified? If that is the meaning of faith, it can only be believed by those who have dispensed with rational thought."
Might I offer a slight modification of this suggestion to read. "For those who are on the outside of a given religious tradition, the beliefs of those inside often appear to be preposterous and totally irrational."
I wonder if Elaine would concur that we often seem to think that "Our religious beliefs are the result of a series of serious and rational consideration of all of the evidence. The religious beliefs of those not of our group are the product of a series of totally irrational superstitious rationalizations."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Erv, that's a better statement. It echoes this:
"what you believe, is religion. If it's what the other guys believe, it's superstition."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat I was aware of all the arguments presented in the commentary. Like I stated before AE is like a “mirage” a “caricature”. None of the points that I presented were seriously answered the explanation has many holes for example 2300 E&M when are interpreted as a 1150 days still are two months to long! Now if is applied 2300 days is even much longer. There is not agreement, even among the preterits, when to begin the account.
My intent is not to convince you. To me to AE does not fulfill all the characteristics of the LH.
I’m very focus. The question was in AE is the LH, to me is “not clear as a day”. Believe me, I read with open mind all the points of view. With the honesty and rigor that I learned doing scientific research I can’t say that AE is the LH. I’m not convinced. To whom applies all this prophesy, still is in my studies.
My comment in regard to Dr LaRondelle was in reference to 2 thess. I knew him personally we had several personal conversations. I will miss his conversations and writings.
The comment of Mrs. Nelson in regards to “rational” I just have to smile. Whoever does not have her point of view is just “irrational”. A little dose of reality and humility is good for the soul.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Who is willing to honestly answer:
Is Mormonism equally rational with Adventism? How about Roman Catholicism and the adoration of Mary? Or Islam? Are these equally valid? Or, does each believer in these religions fully believe that their own is rational, even makes more sense than the others? Do you feel that some are based on either superstition or ignorance? Why, or why not? If you have chosen Adventism, why not any of the other many religions?
I await your answers.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 27th, 2011 Hansen says:
Interesting that a discussion about what to believe is turned into a discussion which questions belief at all. There is no question, Elaine, that the faith of some people, or lack of faith, is based on ignorance.
There are rather comical passages in the OT, Isaiah, for example which mock the spiritual blindness of those who worship idols. There is not a question about the individuals intelligence. It describes how she [gender inclusiveness] can use various tools to shape, measure, and cut a tree into an object, abilities which require intelligence. The person uses part of the tree to warm herself and cook her [gender equality] meal. She fashions what remains of the tree into idol.
The Psalmist also mocks people, capable of seeing, talking, and hearing who believe that a dumb block of wood can be their God. Normally, people worship that which they believe to be superior to themselves;these dimwits worship that which is not only inferior to themselves but that which they themselves fashioned.
Take for instance one's insistence that because clean and unclean animal laws were introduced in Leviticus, the concept of clean and unclean animals were not known in Noah's time. Therefore the Mosaic record of Noah's exprience is fictitious.
The principle at work in that perspective appears to have been contrived by the same type of person who worships a block of wood.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
The reason A.Epiph. has always been played down in it's importance to Jewish history in Adventism is that it competes for Dan. 8:14.
The days can be made to "come close" to 2300 literal in the Greek influence, defilement and then restoration of proper cultic worship. The same lack of preciseness can be said of making a starting date at 457 till 1844 with no verification of the "exactness" of the former or later date…with no verification availiable for the latter date.
The history surrounding A.E, Hellenization of the Jews and internal and external desecration of the sacrificial cultus are interesting. Perhaps the first "conservative-modernist" theological debate among the Jews themselves as well as noticing the Greek civil powers and Hellenist Jews in a syncretistic combine of purpose. What repetitive motifs do you possibly see here with the harlot of Rev.?
I last saw Hans in 2000 when I visited his home and picked up an additional copy of his book "Perfection and Perfectionism" and a copy of "End time prophecies" that he requested I put in the Orlando RTS library. I appreciated also Hans' dealing with EGW pp.491-497 in the book and these thoughts should be made more of an issue at the EGW estates and GC.
Hans would not deny in person the possibility of A.E. in Dan.8 but seemed uncomfortable with discussing the issue..so we moved on to other topics.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat the sentence "when the transgressors are come to the full" will be to much honor to apply to the the time of AE. This will fit better to the time of Jesus when he was rejected as the Christ. "your house will be desolated"
Why a choose to be SDA and not other religion? I wish i could be retired and have all the time to answer.
I became to believe in the Bible as the word of the Lord, after years of studying, analyzing and comparing with other religions writings and philosophies ,even i study the german "high critic" in time i was convince that Bible stands and can pass any test. Is a reliable source. Furthermore this book change my life gave joy and peace. Once this was done i compared SDA teaching with other Christians denominations, i visited their facilities, talk with their members. Even with all limitations the closet one to the teaching Bible i found to be the SDA church.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
I simply don't take the "all or none" approach of any denomination. Prove that which is good my friend. Adventism does have some good points but , I suggest, they are not without error…and this is an example!
Yes the "rebellion/abomination" motif also applies to the rejection of Christ by the Jews…the ultimate false understading and rejection of appropriate sacrifice and worship…and the resulting defilement and desolation by Titus.
Christ alone is perfect and our atonement for the forgiveness of sins. I hope on that Amed we can agree.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat a quick note before my teachings rounds. This is a paragraph of the reference that you posted “Some make the morning and the evening, in this number, to stand for two, and then 2300 evenings and as many mornings will make but 1150 days; and about so many days it was that the daily sacrifice was interrupted: and this comes nearer to the computation (ch. vii. 25) of a time, times, and the dividing of a time. But it is less forced to understand them of so many natural days; 2300 days make six years and three months, and about eighteen days; and just so long they reckon from the defection of the people, procured by Menelaus the high priest in the 142nd year of the kingdom of the Seleucidæ. “
There is not agreement among preterist both considerations are not exact. If I assumed my previous condition of skeptical and atheist I will discount all the credibility. I will say “gentlemen make your mind” ( this not personally to you but to the commentators)
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
So one that disagrees with 1844 is an atheist in spirit? Again Amed show me a historic proof on earth of the fulfiillment of 1844. It is "exact" only because a "vision" by Edson and EGW support it.
By the way Dan.9:24-27…a separate vision…has to do with the desolation after the rejection of Christ. Does that come from doubting liberal atheistic lips? :>)
Sola by scripture , Sola by Grace, Sola in Christ, Sola by faith.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey pat
I came across this brilliant exhaustive study by Juarez R. Oliveira – "Chronological Studies Related to Daniel 8:14 and 9:24-27" which simply just can't be ignored. Will a study like this be a credible argument proving the 1844 Investigative Judgment as accurate, biblical and true?
Website:
Below is a pdf download of the book (Size 29.4 MB – may take a few minutes to download – you will need Adobe Acrobat Reader or some other pdf reader – Adobe Reader download link is
https://get.adobe.com/reader/otherversions/ ).
https://www.iasdcentralfortaleza.com.br/Cronological_Studies_Daniel_9.pdf
Thanks Brother Juarez for the painstaking effort of putting together such a remarkable exhaustive study like this. God Bless.
Please check this out!
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Hansen says:
Pat, I'm not looking to quarrel with you over this matter; however, I am also a bit uncomfortable with what appears to be a rather sloppy use of time prophecy, if AE is a fulfillment of the 2300 day prophecy or 1150 days. Of course, Scripture is not always exact. God's prophecy to Abraham regarding the 400 year captivity was actually 430 years, as attested by Scripture itself. However, Daniel was able to figue out rather precisely when the captivity of Israel would end.
I actually find the 2300 days, with 70 weeks cut off, rather attractive. The problem that I see is the nature of what transpired at the end of the 2300 days. In Revelation, we see the seven spirits move from before the throne to the lamb [see Rev. 4:5 and 5:6], which I understand to refer to the anointing of Christ and the beginning of his priestly ministry. After Jesus was anointed, the spirit was shed upon the church at Pentecost.
The idea that Jesus spent so many years in the temple until beginning the DoA in 1844 I find unbelievable, at this time. Is the idea that something happened in 1844 too much for you to accept? My own view , based on the use of nitsdaq in Daniel 8:14, is that the church is what is in focus rather than a change of venue in heaven. Justify is never/rarely used in Scripture to refer to anything other than people. People are justified, not buildings, not even the temple in heaven.
Probably, the abomination of desolation refers to the crucifixion of Christ and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. What was a greater abomination and desolation than that?
There are just too many problems with understanding Daniel to let it weigh too heavily. Hebrews is a different book, one easier to understand than Daniel. After all, its primary purpose is to explain Christ's ministry in heaven.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, pat
Here are a few excerpts from the book written by Juarez R. Oliveira which I mentioned in my previous post:
The 70 weeks, therefore, began on the 10th day of the 7th month B. C. 457. From that point, 69 weeks, or 483 years, ended in the 7th month A. D. 27.when Jesus began the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom of God, saying ‘THE TIME IS FULFILLED.’ Then 31/2 years after that, on the 10th day of the first month A. D. 31, he rode into Jerusalem as King, and caused the temple worship, or ‘sacrifice and oblation’, to cease. From that point 31/2 years, the last half of the week, extended to the 10th day of the 7th month A. D. 34, when of course the 70 weeks ended. Thus 490 years of the 2300 were fulfilled, and 1810 remained to be fulfilled. Where would they end? On the 10th day of the seventh month, A. D. 1844.
The slaying of the passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul,“Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.” [1 Cor. 5:7.] The sheaf of first-fruits, which at the time of the Passover was waved before the Lord, was typical of the resurrection of Christ. Paul says, in speaking of the resurrection of the Lord, and of all his people, “Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” [1 Cor. 15:23.]Like the wave-sheaf, which was the first ripe grain [RIPE BARLEY] gathered beforethe harvest, Christ is the first-fruits of that immortal harvest of redeemed ones that at the future resurrection shall be gathered into the garner of God. [LUNAR]
These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time [14/01]. On the fourteenth day [NISAN 14] of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which, for fifteen long centuries, the passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten [NISAN 15] the passover with his disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate his own death as “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” That same night [NISAN 15] he was taken by wicked hands, to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave-sheaf, our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, “the first-fruits of them that slept,” [1 Cor. 15:20] a sample of all the resurrected just, whose “vile body” shall be changed, and “fashioned like unto his glorious body.” [Phil. 3:21.]
In like manner, the types which relate to the second advent must be fulfilled at the time pointed out in the symbolic service. Under the Mosaic system, the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great day of atonement, [10/7] occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month (Lev. 16:29-34) [TISHRI 10], when the high priest, having made an atonement for all Israel, and thus removed their sins from the sanctuary, came forth and blessed the people. So it was believed that Christ, our great High Priest, would appear to purify the earth by the destruction of sin and sinners, and to bless his waiting people with immortality. The tenth day of the seventh month, the great day of atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord’s coming.“
To accept this conclusion was to renounce the former reckoning of the prophetic periods. The 2300 days had been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C. Taking this as the starting point, there was perfect harmony in the application of all the events foretold in the explanation of that period in Daniel 9:25-27. Sixty-nine weeks, the first 483 of the 2300 years, were to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One; and Christ's baptism and anointing by the Holy Spirit, A.D. 27, exactly fulfilled the specification. In the midst of the seventieth week, Messiah was to be cutoff. Three and a half years after His baptism, Christ was crucified, in the spring of A.D. 31. The seventy weeks, or 490 years, were to pertain especially to the Jews. At the expiration of this period the nation sealed its rejection of Christ by the persecution of His disciples, and the apostles turned to the Gentiles, A.D. 34. The first 490 yearsof the 2300 having then ended, 1810 years would remain. From A.D. 34, 1810 yearsextend to 1844. "Then," said the angel, "shall the sanctuary be cleansed." All the preceding specifications of the prophecy had been unquestionably fulfilled at the time appointed.”
Cheers
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Trevor,
The basic hermeneutic is wrong. The crack gets manifestedly wider when it requires Christ to minister in the "OT holy place" till 1844.
The starting date is not precise, the heavenly ministry of Christ as priest-king is basd on the OT levitical system and there is no way to authenticate an ending date. There can be as many studies as one chooses and it won't overcome these "big picture" defects.
"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. " Heb.10:12-14.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Pat I agree 100 % with you in the protestant principle of sola scripture.
My question was very specific (is AE the LH?). I did not took yet the challenge to see to whom fits better this prophesy, if you see my comments I restricted myself to the subject. No once I mentioned 1844 because I did not study in deepness when I do so I will express my opinion.
Calling AE a “mirage” or “caricature” of the LH does not automatically proofs the validity of 1844 or other interpretation. Each one has to be study with the same rigor and honesty otherwise I will be blinded by the biases.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hi Hansen.
Chronologically Dan.7 & 8 should be between Chapters 4 & 5. There is no specific way to say the separate vision of Dan.9 is "cut off" from Dan.8 as a 2300 day time prophecy. Dan 8 was written about 554 B.C and Dan 9. about 539 B.C. according to "conservative theological" sources of "king markers."(Belshazzar/Darius)
The issue is the "false sacrifice and worship" that defiles God's intended purposes. The purposes were being defiled in type in A.E.'s day and later of course most significantly with the rejection of Christ, "the blood of the covenant" in Dan.9:24-27 resulting in the curses of Mal.4 and temple desolation by Titus.
The "vindication", I suggest, by the Maccabees is restoring the temple sacrifices to it's proper cultic position and purpose more than just "justifying a building."
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Amed,
A.E. was the "little horn of Dan.8" and can not be assumed the same as in Dan.7.
I suggest the study is prejudiced by an effort to establish the 2300 day prophecy as 457BC-1844 rather than an OT real (not mirror) fulfillment by A.E and the Maccabees.
The typology and motif has to do with the repeatable way in which proper sacrifice for forgiveness of sin is corrupted both at A.E. and the rejection of Christ the blood of the covenant resulting in the desolation of Jerusalem's temple and cultus.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
Erwin,
Thanks for being gracious in letting this conversation go on this strand which in reality could better be under "1844 and me."
I did not initiate but I did respond to questions arising here.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Hansen,
You've made my point:
How is religion different from superstition?
A: Superstition is silly. Religion is not.
Q: But how can you tell the difference between them?
A: If it's what you believe, it's religion. If it's what the other guys believe, it's superstition.
You say that it is "evident" that at the time of Noah, clean and unclean meats was known because of the description of the animals going into the ark.
But, when Noah and his family emerged, God said:
"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you, I give all to you, as I gave the green plant"
No mention whatsoever about "clean" and "unclean," which is why, among other discrepancies in the story, that it was a combination of two or more stories, thus resulting in confusion.
One either accepts all the Bible stories as literal and factual, or finds timeless principles that can be applied to our lives today; anything else is just descriptive history of long ago, and man's perceptions. No where does the Bible describe its stories as holy; man has chosen that description; neither is it "God's Word," but man's perceptions of God.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Hansen say
" Of course, Scripture is not always exact. God's prophecy to Abraham regarding the 400 year captivity was actually 430 years, as attested by Scripture itself.
take a look of this article
https://www.t-cog.org/Articles/The%20400%20Years.pdf
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Hey, pat
Are we seeing this in the same perspective? For instance, do you agree with the way I see things in Daniel 8, up to verse 8?
Daniel Chapter 2 and Chapter 7, both describe the four world Kingdoms: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Chapter 8 runs in parallel with both Chapter 2 and Chapter 7 respectively except that it begins with Medo-Persia. In Chapter 8, Daniel sees a ram with two horns which ‘pushed’ westward, northward and southward; increasing in power and did according to ‘his’ will and became great. Then a ‘he goat’ came with astonishing speed from the west, (which is represented by Greece [Dan 8:21]); and the horn between its eyes denoting its ruler, Alexander the Great, until his untimely death in 323 B.C., at the height of his reign. The single horn representing Alexander was broken and four horns grew in its place [Dan 8:8]. Thus the Grecian empire was divided into four kingdoms: Ptolemy holding Egypt, Palestine, and part of Syria, toward the South; Cassander ruling Macedonia and Greece in the West; Lysimachus ruling Thrace and portions of Asia Minor, to the North; and Seleucus ruling from Babylonia and Assyria eastward.
Thanks
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 pat travis says:
T,
Sounds good…
P
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Hansen says:
Amed, Thanks for the link to that article. I ran into difficulty in the past trying to figure out the chronology of that period. That article may clear it up.
Pat, tsadaq <06663> is used ~ 40 times in the OT. Not once does it refer to the justification or vindication of the temple, or any other building. It is used again in Daniel, in the customary way (12:3), The temple was defiled and repaired at various times in the OT. Never is the temple referred to as being justified by the use of tsadaq. The problem is that the word taher <02891> is used to refer to the cleansing of the temple in the time of Hezekiah (2 Chron 29:15,16,18).
Unfortunately,[for me] taher is used in parallelism with tsadaq in Job 4:17; however, in the Hezekiah story, another entirely different word is used to describe the consecration of the temple after it is cleansed. It sounds as if you are talking more about the consecration or rededication of the temple than about its cleansing.
2 Chronicles 34:8 describes the purging of Jerusalem and the house by Josiah. Again taher is used. The house of the Lord is repaired,not justified or vindicated. 2 Kings 12 has a long story about the repair of the Lord's house in the reign of Jehoash. No justification of the temple there, either.
Considering the long history of the temple's defliement and restoration, it seems a bit strange that suddenly a word is used in Daniel to refer to a process which is not new but is nowhere else described by that word.
Perhaps I have missed something in my quick review of this topic. I don't recall seeing anything in my past study of the temple history which would support your position, but I may have overlooked it.
OTOH, the justification of the spiritual temple of believers, and their ultimate vindication, is something which we would expect to see in the last days.
The 70 weeks being cut off from the 2300 days does make sense to me, primarily because 457 is the right time for the seventy weeks to end during the time of Christ. It just feels right, LOL.
Great discussion and fascinating topic. I've been trying to figure out a way to shake up my Bible reading friends. Perhaps a presentation on the 2300 day prophecy would be just the right thing!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Hansen says:
Elaine, way of topic and interfering with an interesting discussion, so I won't be indulging you too much, However:
I often reprimand my students for copying the work of others. I point out that the person whose work they copy is, perhaps, dumber than they are.
They don't consider that. They think, "Oh, I don't know the answer, I'm dumb. My neighbor has an answer, so they must be smarter than I am."
They don't consider that their neighbor may have the wrong answer. I encourage them to take a moment to think what the right answer might be. It's amazing how happy they appear when they do come up with the right answer themselves. Whoever’s work you are copying obviously didn’t give much thought to the “discrepancy” in Scripture which you so gleefully have “found.”
At that point in history, clean and unclean animals were not for food, they were for sacrifices. Notice chapter 6:21:
"as for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them."
Why must Noah gather food, when he had a boatload of flesh to eat? Because he was a vegetarian, in harmony with the diet prescribed in Eden. After the flood, other food was introduced, according to the text you listed; however, the sacrifices which Noah offered consisted of “clean” animals (Genesis 8:20). Later, in Leviticus, clean and unclean animals were offered as food.
I don’t see any “discrepancy.” I see merely the rantings those who worship blocks of wood. I guess I'm lucky to be dumb enough to actually respect the Bible as the Word of God.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
"Whoever’s work you are copying obviously didn’t give much thought to the “discrepancy” in Scripture which you so gleefully have “found.”
Sorry to disappoint you but this is not something I "found" but has been known by anyone reading the text in the Bible. Because it has been passed over in emphasizing foods to be avoided and those to be eaten, does not negate the text.
What is your explanation for God telling Noah that "every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you." Is that a description of plant life? Creeping vines, perhaps?
Where is the first Bible evidence for "clean" and "unclean meats" being forbidden? There is nothing forbidding Noah from eating this, but the first prohibitions on animal life is in Leviticus when Moses was given the rules for the Israelites. The books in the Bible are NOT combined in distinct chronological order of the events. We do not know the dates for each book so to conclude that past events were really first encoutered much earlier is an assumption without evidence. Care to give the evidence for this assumtion that Noah already "knew" about unclean meats? Noah did not write the Flood story, but IF it was written by Moses, it was long, long afterward.
".Why must Noah gather food, when he had a boatload of flesh to eat? Because he was a vegetarian, in harmony with the diet prescribed in Eden."
Where is Noah said to be a vegetarian? Where was there any green foods to eat until they had been planted and harvested? Is it realistic to believe that the sacrifices (God made coats of skin for A&E) were discarded and not eaten? The practice of animal sacrifices was common in many cultures contemporary with Israel, and there were so many animals sacrificed in their ceremonies that had to have been eaten by the Israelites and were certainly not vegetarians. God never gave vegetariansim as a requirement, and we know that Jesus ate both lamb and fish. Vegetarianism was a precept of Adventism that cannot be biblically supported; healthwise, it can be–with care.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Hansen says:
Elaine, It's not difficult.
Vegetarian diet until after the flood.
Clean animals used for sacrifices before and after the flood.
Diet expanded after the flood
Clean and unclean animals for food codified in Leviticus.
Problem?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Can you substantiate by Scripture that only plants were eaten until after the flood? It is very common to retrospectively "assume" facts that cannot be determined by Scripture. If Cain's offering of plants was rejected, it was an inference that Abel's meat offering was accepted. What happened to all the animals sacrificed all those millennia? Never eaten? Discarded? When did God give specifications for the only sacrifice he would accept? Were Cain and Abel told what was acceptable? Or, was it only after the fact–which is what is recorded in the Bible?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Hansen
i had the same difficulty resolving the 400 and 430 years, that article helped to understand. I found out when ever the Lord has an specific time in prophesy he does not uses approximations, He is just on target. The 2300 E&M are not the exception. No matter how hard the preterits tried to adjust this specific time to AE it does not feat. AE is just "mirage" a "cartoon" of the LH.
I noticed that you like to see the words in the original language. This may be of your interest, Dr Shea in his book Selected Studies on Prophetic Interpretation pages 50-52 has a very elegant explication what is the origin of the LH.
"the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn"
from were came the little horn? from one the horns or from one of the four winds? The original language favor from one of the winds. that means the LH horn does not come from one of the greek kingdoms but from other origin which favor the roman empire.
Hansen in regards to several comments of Elaine i just take as they came "lightly", they are out of the context, not focus, repetitive and predictable.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 laffal says:
Elaine,
The animals were consumed by the fire upon the alter!
Only after Israel's deliverence from Egypt was portions of the sacrifice used as food. But that was to teach a spiritual lesson.
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? (1 Corinthians 10:17-18 KJV)
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 28th, 2011 Hansen says:
Amed, My issue, as I said above, is not with the identity of the little horn so much as with the event which transpires in 1844. The references in the gospels clearly identify the abominating desolation with Rome. While I consider AE instructive, I'm not convinced that he is a primary fulfillment.
The abomination of desolation is mentioned 2 times in Daniel. Once a transgression which causes desolation is mentioned, in Daniel 8:13. Chapter 9 mentions one who comes on the wing of abominations and causes desolation. You can see below that the "transgression" which causes desolation uses a different word than is used in the other passages. There is also another time prophecy in chapter 12:11 which must be explained.
The Greek of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 which refers to the abomination of desolation is nearly exactly what is written in the LXX of Daniel 12:11
Daniel 8:13 then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, "how long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression <06588> causes <08074> horror <08074>, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?"
Daniel 9:27 "and he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations <08251> will come one who makes <08074> desolate <08074>, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes <08074> desolate <08074>."
Daniel 11:31 "forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. and they will set up the abomination <08251> of desolation <08074>.
Daniel 12:11 "from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination <08251> of desolation <08074> is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
I really don't know what to make of it, at least not yet. The numbers are from the Online Bible, which is useful for word studies. You can use numbers or the language. For example, below, I ran the Greek from the LXX in the NT and came upon the two passages listed. Very useful for word studies which is what I use it for.
Dan. 12:11 (LXX) και απο καιρου παραλλαξεως του ενδελεχισμου και του δοθηναι [βδελυγμα ερημωσεως] ημεραι χιλιαι διακοσιαι ενενηκοντα 11
Matthew 24:15 οταν ουν ιδητε το [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου εστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω
Mark 13:14 οταν δε ιδητε το [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] το ρηθεν υπο δανιηλ του προφητου εστος οπου ου δει ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω τοτε οι εν τη ιουδαια φευγετωσαν εις τα ορη
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hi Hansen,
I think we are on different time zones…I am EST.
The niphal perfect of sdq has the meaning/gloss of “put right.” So this is suggestive of why the NAS translates as “properly restored” and the NIV translates as “will be reconsecrated” in an attempt to capture the meaning of putting right or back into it’s former state or purpose having been violated. Likewise Christ was attempting to reconsecrate the temple to its proper cultic purpose having been violated.
Perhaps the cause of your concern of any tone of “cleansing” or restoration may be related in the way the founders by using the KJV came up with “cleansed” in some way was linked to Lev.16 and the DoA. There is no linguistic link to come to that conclusion and had there been Heb. Taher for cleansed would have been used rather than the sdq described above in Dan.8:14. This is “one” of our hermeneutical problems in the traditional understanding for needing a future antitype of the OT DoA in the heavenly sanctuary.
As to the “Seventy sevens” of Dan.9 vs. the insistence on a 457 AD date. The problem is in several assumptions. Cyrus was given the command to “build and restore” Isa.44:28; 2 Chron.36:22; Dan.9:25. No such command was given by the “assumed to be Artaxerxes L.” in Ezra 7:11 and his decree which was in 458 B.C. We have made assumptions on Artaxerxes (which one) that were given to Cyrus.
"Seventy sevens" does not use days, weeks or years and is assumed by other scholars to be merely a symbolic phrase perhaps tied to Lev.26:24-34 “seven times” and related to the 70 yrs of captivity…so that Daniel is conveying that in about 500 yrs. This prophecy will come to pass. Of course many who demand minutes and seconds and days of exactness of prophecy are uncomfortable with this adequate but “seeming non-preciseness.”
In deed Messiah does come and fulfill covenant, but most place Passover Friday on either 30 or 33 AD with Wycliff Bible Encyl. Preferring the former 30 AD.
So our traditional preciseness is challenged at the start, middle and definitely no confirmable terminus date in 1844…not to mention Christ's role as king-priest on the throne since His ascension.
So in some sense “cleansing” from defilement and reconsecrating and restoring, putting right are useful descriptions but NOT in attempting to create a link between Dan.8:14 and Lev.16 as our founders did in describing 8:14 when the restoration of the cultus actually ocurred after A.E. contextually before the Roman empire.
Of course the temple was later defiled again and detroyed by Titus. A repetitive motif. "Rebelion/Abomination brought the desolator and desolation."
Hope this helps in understanding this shared view of others I am stating.
Regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Hansen you made a challenging point! (Intellectual, theological and spiritual) “I really don't know what to make of it, at least not yet” in reference to Daniel 12;11. I concur with you, and thinks gets even more complicated when we look the context.
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. 11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
a. To start this was sealed until the time of the end. The wise will understand but not the wicket. And is en reference the abomination that causes desolation.
b. I saw two explanations neither of them had satisfactory answers. Many holes… the preteristic was the worse!
c. More than once came to my mind… if we are at “the time of end” and I don’t understand I’m no wise but wicket or if I’m purified and wise we are not at the time of the end
d. My hope is In our pursuit of studding seriously the word of God in time we will understand if we really live in the time of the end
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 amed soliz says:
Hansen and Pat if you interested in
The Meaning of Nisdaq in Daniel 8:14
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 pat travis says:
Thanks Amed,
I already dealt with it above. The ultimate issue is that there is no liguistic attachment to Lev.16 in the Hebrew which the pioneers thought from the KJV "cleansing." Good article in what it says and deficient in what it avoids.
Also it was the God of Jacob vindicating His own name and sanctuary that both brings/allows desolation due to covenant violation AND restores through the Maccabees to the proper cultic worship.
He restored the temple after A.E. for it's cultic need extending to Christ but their was no reason after the destruction of Titus because we "are seated in the heavenlies in Christ above." No foreign or human source can defile the heavenly dwelling of God. God by One sacrifice of atonement vindicated Himself and His throne/sanctuary dwelling at the cross forever so that He can be just and the justifier of the believing at the present time.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 dskinsey says:
I don't know what SDA churches some of you attend, but I can assure you that there are SDA churches that are not legalistic. I happen to attend a warm, loving, forgiving, grace-oriented congregation in San Marcos, Texas. Admittedly, this church was not always that way. It has grown beautifully during the last 10 to 15 years because some people determined to change its culture (aura, or whatever one would call it). Come, see for yourself!!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 29th, 2011 Hansen says:
Dr. Davidson's article listed here and another article on Hebrews "within the veil" are basically word studies. A person with a Strong's Concordance could do the same, more or less. I'm not knocking the man, just pointing out that even the best Adventist scholars employ methods of Biblical interpretation which are available to any church member.
Of course, a background in languages is helpful but not essential for the most basic use of the topical/word study method. The problem with Daniel that it doesn't respond well to topical/ word study approaches.
A scholar can make a convincing case, dazzling the unsophisticated; however, unless he is honest in considering the implications of all the evidence, he/ she is simply pushing an agenda. Often there is evidence on both sides of an issue. The true scholar finds the points that make the case, if there is a case to be made.
Take the expression "wing of abominations" in Daniel 9. Good luck finding cross references which make its meaning plain. Onr reference turns up, the one being studied.
Another example in Daniel 11 is the setting up or placing of the abomination. Run a word study and here's what shows up:
Ezekiel 7:20 ‘they transformed the beauty of his ornaments into pride, and they made the images of their abominations and their detestable <08251> things <08251> with it; therefore I will make <05414> it an abhorrent thing to them.
Ezekiel 11:21 "but as for those whose hearts go after their detestable <08251> things <08251> and abominations, I will bring <05414> their conduct down <05414> on their heads," declares the lord GOD.
Daniel 11:31 "forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. and they will set <05414> up the abomination <08251> of desolation.
Daniel 12:11 "from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination <08251> of desolation is set <05414> up, there will be 1,290 days.
Not a lot of help there. Numerous passages in Danile are like that, manking it a tough book to figure out.
Same with AoD:
Daniel 9:27 "and he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations <08251> will come one who makes <08074> desolate <08074>, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes <08074> desolate <08074>."
Daniel 11:31 "forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. and they will set up the abomination <08251> of desolation <08074>.
Daniel 12:11 "from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination <08251> of desolation <08074> is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Only in Daniel. No enlightening cross references in other books. Whaaa!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hansen,
>>A scholar can make a convincing case, dazzling the unsophisticated; however, unless he is honest in considering the implications of all the evidence, he/ she is simply pushing an agenda. Often there is evidence on both sides of an issue. The true scholar finds the points that make the case, if there is a case to be made.<<
That's kinda the expression …missing the forrest for the trees and obscuring the simple.
The key for understanding the OT prophets is , I suggest, covenant and the "blessings and curses." (Dt.27-30) Now that doesn't deal with all the "minor specific details" but it sets the big picture of the prophets messages to return to covenant.
To me AoD is established in Dt.27-30. Daniel says of the Babylonian "desolation" caused by Israels sins and violation of covenant God did not hesitate…Dan.9:9-19. Restoration occurs after confession and desired return to covenant.
For me the big broad brush picture of prophecy is enough. Trying to evaluate all the details ahead of fulfillment for clarification is usually what "gets us in trouble."
Language study is essential if one is not to be completely reliant on anothers interpretation. Not only word meaning but syntax is needed for proper interpretation. The error of "cleansed" in 8:14 is a perfect example of how misunderstandings and a crack in the door can led to a Grand Canyon of skewed ideas.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 Hansen says:
Pat, Could you provide a couple of examples showing how syntax illuminates a point that cross references do not? For instance, passages where the English translation is incomprehensible enough to require a competent knowledge of syntax in order to make sense of a passage.
Would you agree that, in most cases, another passage dealing with the same topic clarifies the obtuse passage? Could you show a couple of passages which lack clarifying cross references and remain incomprehensible apart from the syntax?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 LemQuest says:
Something of cataclysmic proportions has happened in Japan that will have ill effects worldwide – economically, ecologically, etc. Certainly, to imply that this tragic event doesn't have implications to endtime events is certainly naive. There is a greater issue here than just be on a betting game of "being a false prophet or a true prophet."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
Every time a serious natural catastrophe takes place which is followed by loss of human life sincere Christians react by reminding us that the end is around the corner. Is this what Jesus said would happen? Are we perhaps misreading what he predicted? Here is what Jesus said:
Quote:
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
If we read the passage listed above with care, we will discover that Jesus did not say that earthquakes and other natural disasters are an indication that the end is around the corner, but rather that “the end is not yet.” The real sign that the end is really near is something different from natural disasters:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The increase in natural disasters does not say very much about the nearness of the end, but the preaching of the gospel to all nations is. This is so simple a six year old child can understand.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 rfaiola says:
An earlier poster linked to a wonderful display of earthquakes in the last 10 years. It is easy to change the search to 100 years. What one finds is that the frequency is level; that these "signs" keep happening in the same places (along plate edges); and that as expected that are some clusters of increased and decreased density. Must have been tough to be an evangelist between 1975 and 2000. See: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=earthquakes+over+the+last+100+years
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hansen,
First of all, I want to MAKE PERFECTLY clear that one does not need various degrees to understand all that is necessary for salvation and that scripture is it's own interpreter. (sola scriptura) Most good translations vs. paraphrases satisfy this "self interpretation" requirement.
That said does not mean all passages are equally understandable and knowlege of the languages… words and syntax is not useful for a better intepretation or evaluation of an interpretation. Word study alone does not deal with cases, verbal tenses and aspect which do have outcomes to interpretation.
I really don't want to go down a road of exegetical method where one illustration is followed by another question.
I believe you went to seminary as I recall. If so pull out your exegetical method text and look under syntax for illustrations. If not, may I suggest you buy one.
I am not meaning to be dismissive or evasive to you…just don't want to go there.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 Hansen says:
Pat, what concerns me about the "languages" is that they are oftened used as a smoke screen by obscurantists. You can see posters here referring to the work of scholars which has supposedly refuted all objections to 1844, 457, the IJ, and so forth. Discussion and further investigation is stifled.
Simple people who can see, in the English, that there are problems with traditional views, which require clarification, are dismissed.
Dr Davidson in his article "within the veil" sets forth the idea, based on his LXX studies, that Jesus entered the MHP at his ascension to inaugurate the temple rather than to do the DoA service.
Actually, the English is quite clear that inauguration language is being used in Hebrews 9. It's equally clear, however, that DoA language is being used in chapters 8-10. I enjoy doing word studies, so I certainly don't object to that approach. And I must admit that to work in the LXX, which I often do, some Greek is essential.
I don't believe that Dr. Davidson is interested in quieting discussion; however, the mentality of some is that scholarly articles defending the SDA traditions end the discussion rather than initiate or continue one. Many of these people, even being native speakers, can't really understand English [or whatever their L1 is]. What is needed is more classwork in literary analysis…of English.
Nowadays with the wealth of Bible study tools available, such as the Online Bible, and many other software programs, the depths, more or less, may be plumbed by anyone with a desire to do it.
Adventists are worried about Jesusits and popery, yet many fail to see that the so called defenders of the faith are themselves moving the church in that direction by placing Biblical interpretation in the hands of the experts, those with a knowledge of the OL. Really, I'm not sure how much OL one must know to develop credibility.
Some of the traditionalist champions know little, yet the are lionized. Bottom line is that, in general, people have a preconceived opinion which they want validated. Whoever affirms the position which they already hold is the one preaching "the truth."
Considering the influence of EGW, I can't help but feel that, in spite of her references to Scripture, her influence among Adventists has been to stifle serious Bible study. Most of the positions held by people wanting affirmation were derived from her writings on Scripture, not inductive Bible study.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On March 30th, 2011 pat travis says:
Hansen,
I agree with your comments. I have often said that "our best" scholars who want to defend 1844 and the I.J.et al.HP till 1844 to submit your scholarship to a jounal such as WTJ or another conservative journal. Then you have "big boys" playing with big boys and they will strip away the nonsense that merely gives the appearance of scholarship among the already convinced.
We never have done that in a respectable conservative theological journal to convince the world of what they are missing…so that perhaps we could see what "we are missing."
Paranoia says we could not receive a fair hearing from "Babylon."
Peace,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 1st, 2011 Doctorf says:
Erv,
My immediate reaction to this thread is "here we go again." Adventists are not the only Christians wringing their hands about "the end." I am amused when natural disasters strike and people claim "it's a sign of the times." What nonsense! Cataclysmic events have been going on for billions of years in the earths history but we were not around to observe them. The claim that earthquake frequency will increase and stars falling reflected the ignorance of the biblical writers with respect to geophysical history. All of these things are adequately explained by modern science.
We just watched a sunami engulf an entire city demonstrating that if you are in the way of a cataclysmic event God is not goint to intervene. Humans caught in the way of nature are doomed pure and simple and their time is up and has nothing to do with a "judgement" as these events are cyclical.
It's now 2000 yrs and here we are counting and waiting for the "2nd advent". We better get longer lasting hour glasses because if the past is any teacher we are in for a long, long wait. Adventist eschatology like any garden variety christian eschatology appears to be superstition in the light of knowledge.
The only thing I regret about not getting another 2000 yrs to my own life is that I won't be around to see the latest christian apologetic theology and polished eschatological nonsense to deal with the fact that it's been 4000 yrs and he still has not come.
Great post and as usual you get the discussion rolling!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 1st, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
All these "Chicken Little" preachers cyring "the end is near, the end is near" usually don't read this text:
"You wil be hearing of war and and rumors of wars and frightened fo those things must take place BUT THAT IS NOT THE END." "But of that day anR hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, not the Son, but the Father alone" 9 (Matt. 24).
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
I am surprised that I find myself in agreement with your last statement. More so, since you posted your comments twice—for emphasis, I suppose!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 hflynn says:
Here is what God says:
Peter 3:1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
2 Peter 3:2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
2 Peter 3:4 They will say, "Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
2 Peter 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 TXalchemist says:
Pat,
On March 29 you responded to Hansen and commented on the lack of certainty about B.C. 457 and A.D. 31. Previously, on March 28, Trevor posted a note to you with a link to a study by Juarez Oliveira. Before reading your March 29 note, I had followed the link and downloaded the PDF and read through the lengthy but interesting study. I encourage you to do the same. It may not change your mind, but Oliveira has done a rather impressive job of marshalling his evidence, and I think you should read it before pushing the points you made in your March 29 post. Oliveira’s almost interchangeable use of the Writings [capitalized in the original] of Ellen White and the Bible is jarring—is that how things are done among SDAs in Brazil?—but the scholarly references he cites, the astronomical evidence he develops, and the arguments he builds, are all worth the read. His credibility is enhanced by his willingness to tackle some SDA heavyweights and point out their mistakes. He certainly came across to me as a truth seeker, not a mere apologist, even though his aims are in fact apologetic.
I don’t have enough expertise in the subject at hand to refute his study, but for those of us with a “low” view of inspiration the arguments are not as compelling as they may be to those of you with a “high” view, since we start from a very different set of assumptions about the origin of Biblical chronological statements to begin with. I’d be interested in yours and others comments AFTER you’ve read his study. For example, do you find his arguments for 457 and 31 compelling? Why/why not?
And thanks, Trevor, for posting the link!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 pat travis says:
Alchemist,
When I went to the site I got warnings of virus. Briefly with all the "possibles" and not certains about which Artixexres and which possible date I must ASK Why all the labor except to act as an apologist for an SDA position.
Ultimately there is no hermeneutical reason for Christ not entering the MHP till 1844. So you have "possibilites" but no reconciliation of Christ being a king-priest on the throne since His ascension.
So all these other dating "possibilities" are but side issues and rabbit trails vs, the reality of where Hebrews says Christ entered at His ascension.
It is simply not seeeing the forest for the trees!
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
Ellen White's take on the Sanctuary. Check this link!
https://atoday.rapidhost.net/articleadmin.php?id=600
Re: Ellen White: Joyless before the Epiphany of 1888?
On April 2nd, 2011 Trevor Hammond says:
T
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 2nd, 2011 Doctorf says:
Hflynn,
Interesting post of a cacophony of random texts. But if your intent is to suggest that eschatology is nonsense, then I agree. It's Gods problem and under his purview.
As per my previous post, so what are we going to come up with in terms of "explantation" after the next 2000, 4000, 10,000, 1,000,000 yrs and still he has not come?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 3rd, 2011 hflynn says:
What I presented was not a cacophony of random texts. Look again. They all came from the same book, the same chapter. I not insulting your opinion; in fact, I was not even thinking about it when I posted those texts.
Your argument is with God, not me. <<so what are we going to come up with in terms of "explantation" after the next 2000, 4000, 10,000, 1,000,000 yrs and still he has not come?>> It is not what we will say but what will God say. Let me ask you, could God be wrong?
What will I be saying? I won't be saying anything because if Christ has not come, I won't be around, but neither will you.
My question, not attack, is–what do you do with those verses? Please don't dismiss them; deal with them. What do they mean? That is a fair question. I really would like to know what you have to say. Thanks.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 3rd, 2011 Ella M says:
Ella M
Doctorf:
He will have come for you, and maybe that is the whole point!
I don't know your theology, but you have always sounded like a person of integrity on here and one who cares about people.
To me it seems a bit "foolish" to be Christian and not believe Christ's promise to return. I believe He waits for more to be saved as noted in the Bible. But with the increase in knowledge, technology (the gospel for the first time in history could literally go to all the earth), the awakening of the nonChristian nations, environmental problems, the acceptance of overt sin in society, and so many destroyed by disasters in populated aeas in the last few decades, sound like signs to me. Yes, I am one of those you and Irv would describe in negative terms, but I do believe the time is coming. Christ presented it that way for a reason. If not, humanity will destroy itself.
I do believe God is more merciful and loving than Christian churches through the ages have perceived Him to be. The gospel that is generally taught is not broad enough and maybe hasn't been good news at all to most of the world. But it still takes a certain kind of humility to believe or as Graham Maxwell used to say "a willingness to listen."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 3rd, 2011 pat travis says:
Trevor,
Let no one violate the clear word of scripture that Christ is seated as king-priest on the throne of God since His ascension…and that includes EGW.
Saying the things that need to be said.
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 4th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
Dear Erwin
There is definitely an escalation of seismic events. This year, before the year was three months old, we have had two severe earthquakes that have destroyed many lives and possessions in both New Zealand and Japan. These events are being rationalised scientifically. There is a school that relates these earthquakes to global warming, and it makes a lot of sense to me. (There are other scientists that deny this correlation.) The ice on the northern and southernmost land is melting and the mass of that ice is being displaced into the oceans. This is causing imbalances on the techtonic plates of the earth, and the centripetal force of the diurnal rotation is causing the plates to readjust – hence the earthquakes. Note, they mostly seem to occur three or four days after new or full moon. (Almost time again) This is when the crust of the earth, like the ocean with its tides, has the greatest amount of flexing…
Even though we can scientifically rationalise what is happening on earth today, does not take away from the role of these events as signs of the imminence of the Second Advent. When I read Matt 24, and the beginning of that chapter talks about wars and rumours of wars, and earthquakes in diverse places, I get the sense that we are only now moving into Matt 24. What has happened before this does not carry the same significance as current events. Besides these major earthquakes, we also have North Africa and the Middle East falling apart – wars and rumours of wars.
Be it as it may, we are definitely reading the signs of Matt 24. Interestingly, Matt 24 says these are only the beginning of "travail." The first definitive sign of the Advent is the Gospel being spread into all the world (verse 14). The question we would like to have answered is whether and when the Gospel has been proclaimed to all the world. I believe we are moving in that direction, but are not there yet and the spread of the Gospel is not rapid enough. We need another Pentecost to accelerate the spread of the Gospel. This will indeed occur when the Latter Rain falls as prophesied by Joel (2:28).
The bottom line is: We need God to pour out His Spirit soon, or the earth will fall apart before the work is done.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 4th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
The first definitive marker in Matt 24 (verse 14) is the spreading of the Gospel into all the world. That has not yet occurred. We need the outpouring of the Spirit before the work will be accelerated to that point.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 4th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
Amed, and others that were discussing the validity of 1844,
I am a chemist that in my lunch hours researched Revelation word by word, comparing all words that were the same (not in Greek, but my mother tongue which is Afrikaans) and found myself seeing new patterns that varied somewhat from our traditional understanding of prophecy. I tried to brush the concepts aside but they kept coming back to me until I made a paradigm shift in certain symbols and principles. I wrote a book, that is not published, that explains the logic behind my current understanding.
In chapter 13 I put all the apocalyptic time prophecies together – 70 weeks, 2300 evenings and mornings, 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days. In this chapter I also explain how I experience that 1844 was not just a misunderstanding in event, but also in time, and that the real fulfilment of this prophecy is in future real evenings and mornings, and not year-days.
The reason why I am sharing this is that anyone interested in my understanding of this can e-mail me
(martinb@apiu.edu) and I will gladly share. I cannot post it here because the tables and diagrams will not work here.
Prohecy is exciting, and we live in serious and exciting times.
Blessings,
Martin
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 4th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
Pat
I support what you are saying. I believe that time as we know it is bound to this earth, and that God is a timeless being Who created time for our earth. (I wrote a paper on that concept: MW Bredenkamp,* W Shipton, “God Created Time” in “Intergration of Faith and Learning, Sahmyook University Press, Korea, 2009, pp 1-16. ) A corollary from that concept is that all time prophecies must pertain to this earth, since heaven is timeless, or has a different timeline to us. Immediately that poses a problem with 1844.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
God created time? Time is simply a mental construct which helps us establish the sequence of events. There was no need for God to create time; the moment an event followed another, the concept of time became a reality. Time has no separate existence from the events which take place in the universe. The notion that God is not subject to time has no real meaning. The moment he engaged in thinking or planning his actions became related to each other in a timely manner with one action following another.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
Our 1844 experience was predicted in Revelation Chapter 11, but we have misinterpreted it. The angel predicted that following the eating of the scroll it would be sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. What we did was to say that it was bitter-sweet instead of bitter in the stomach. We said that we were right on the date, but wrong on the event. It is time to admit that the experience was not bitter-sweet, but rather bitter.
We need to go back to Daniel 8 and read it keeping in mind the historical events it portrays. The vision portrays the action of Alexander the great and his fight against the Persians. This took place in the Battle of Granicus in 334 B.C. If you add 2300 years to said date and allow for the lack of a zero year between B.C. and A.D., you get to 1967. Did something of importance take place for the Jews in 1967? Yes, indeed. The Six-day War took place with the stunning victory of Israel over the Arab nations. Bear in mind that Daniel the prophet was worried about the future of his Jewish people—not the Adventist movement.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
Hi Nic
These concepts are above our natural “Newtonian” frame of reference. Modern science states that time space and matter cannot exist without the presence of all three those entities. They are a triune if you like.
The Bible seems to allude to this as well in the very first text of Genesis: In the beginning (time) God created the heaven (space) and the earth (matter). There are several other texts that allude to God’s timelessness in His divinity. For instance: John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily,I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” Notice the strange tenses: Before Abraham was (past tense), I am (present continuous). This suggests that God has a timeless presence. I believe he has access to past and future with greater ease than what you and I can walk from the kitchen to the dining room and back. He has a perfect knowledge of the future as much as the past. This opens up the predestination “can of worms,” which I do not want to discuss now.
Bottom line: We are very limited, and in our thinking we very often tend to limit God. He is much bigger and more powerful than we can ever imagine.
Martin
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 pat travis says:
Martin,
Basically these concepts are within the theological categories of transcendence and immanence.
I believe God differs from us in that He can exist both outside and inside our earthly time frame which He established.
As to 1844, I suggest, both Nic and our traditional interpretations are incorrect but it does prove ones cleaverness in making things work retrospectively…never mind that all aspects of the prophecy and it's purposes do not fit other aspects of scripture's revelation.
Dan.8:14 refers to A.E. and Dan.9 anticipates Messiah to come and fulfill covenant. Upon Messiah's rejection desolations were to be the fate of Jerusalem and the Temple cultus.
God's foreknowledge does not preclude mankinds reponses also known to Him. He iis active in bringing about His will while also allowing human response. But How? Ask God when you see Him if He can explain it to the created who are not God. :>)
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 6th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 martin bredenkamp stated:
“Modern science states that time space and matter cannot exist without the presence of all three those entities.”
I say: If you analyze what you have stated, you will realize that if what you said is true, it follows that talking about the creation of time makes no sense, because it cannot have a separate existence from space and matter. The moment you create matter, time becomes a reality, but said reality is a mental construct which allows us to establish the sequence of events.
You believe that God exists outside of time and space, which allows him to see the present, past and future at the same time. This is a clever way of explaining God’s ability to predict future events, but it has no biblical or rational basis. God can predict certain future events for several reasons: He is smarter than we are, he can view all potential outcomes, and he can providentially mold the future and transform a curse into a blessing.
The notion that God can live outside of time makes no logical sense for the reason I stated before: The moment God thinks about something, it automatically precedes or follows what he thought before. Tell me how you can get out of this dilemma!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 6th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 5th, 2011 pat travis said:
“As to 1844, I suggest, both Nic and our traditional interpretations are incorrect but it does prove ones cleaverness in making things work retrospectively…never mind that all aspects of the prophecy and it's purposes do not fit other aspects of scripture's revelation. Dan.8:14 refers to A.E. and Dan.9 anticipates Messiah to come and fulfill covenant. Upon Messiah's rejection desolations were to be the fate of Jerusalem and the Temple cultus.”
I say: The connection between Daniel 8 and 9 is a human invention. Daniel 8 provides its own time framework. The vision deals with the actions of Alexander the Great–not the order for the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. It talks about a battle between him and the Persian Empire. Ignoring this historical fact makes no sense to me. William Miller got it wrong, and we are still defending his error.
If you start with the Battle of Granicus in 334 B.C. and you add 2300 years to it, allowing for the lack of a zero year between B.C. and A.D. you arrive at 1967, the date for the Six Days War between Israel and the Arabs. This interpretation was advanced by the brother of Isaac Newton three centuries ago, but we Adventists ignored this because our eyes are fixed on 1844.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 6th, 2011 Pickle says:
Erv,
The Review printing four stories about the earthquake in Japan being a sign of the end is no more evidence of your having the biblical gift of prophecy than if the Review had printed four stories about the Sabbath being important after you predicted that they would.
More is needed than simply that a prediction comes to pass:
"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams." (Deut. 13:1-3).
And:
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 martin bredenkamp says:
Nic
We are not supposed to understand these things in our natural Newtonian frame of reference. Natural science today has moved beyond to the Einsteinian frame of reference. When you approach the speed of light, your time slows down and the dimension parallel to the direction you are moving in is truncated. At the speed of light time stops. This is not just a theory, but is a fact proven with sub-atomic particles. Gravity also warps space. My point: Time, space and matter do things that we cannot fathom at high speeds.
I do believe God has perfect foreknowledge. Rev 17:8 implies that those whose names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth will not be deceived by the beast. That means that before the world was created, our names have been written in the Lamb's book of life. That is also why God could have forgiven the sins of those who lived before the crucifixion, because He new that Christ would succeed in His mission before His incarnation.
God created time when He created heaven and earth: In the beginning (time) God created heaven (space) and earth (matter) Gen 1:1.
God is bigger than what we can imagine.
Martin
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
On April 8th, 2011 martin bredenkamp said: “I do believe God has perfect foreknowledge. Rev 17:8 implies that those whose names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth will not be deceived by the beast. That means that before the world was created, our names have been written in the Lamb's book of life. That is also why God could have forgiven the sins of those who lived before the crucifixion, because He new that Christ would succeed in His mission before His incarnation.
”I say: If your interpretation is correct, this means that the names of Lucifer and the fallen angels were not written in the book of life. Then my question is: Why would God create beings whose names were not written in the book of life? I prefer to believe that the Lord knew in advance all the possible events that could take place, and he had a plan to deal with every eventuality, but he probably could not know this before he created Lucifer and the fallen angels that they would be lost. Have you read Richard Rice’s book “The Openness of God”?
You believe that God’s forgiveness was based on his knowledge that Christ’s mission would succeed. This implies that God risked nothing, because he knew in advance that Jesus mission would succeed. This notion is negated by several statements written by Ellen White. Here is one of them:
Quote: “Christ was conqueror over the powers of darkness, and took the infinite risk of consenting to war with the enemy, that He might conquer him in our behalf. {ST, January 5, 1915 par. 4}
I also question your theory of forgiveness. If forgiveness is predicated on the death of the Son of God, what does this tell us about the character of God? And what does it say about the nature of true forgiveness? My dictionary defines forgiveness as a willingness to forfeit the right to demand payment of the debt. If God cannot forgive without the full payment of the debt, doesn’t his mean that there is no true forgiveness?
Suppose you owe a large sum of money, the creditor writes to you that your enormous debt has been forgiven, can he later on sue you for the full payment of the debt?
If your understanding of forgiveness is correct, then how do you explain the fact that Lucifer was offered forgiveness on the basis of repentance and submission? Does his mean that if Lucifer had accepted the offer of forgiveness, that Jesus would have had to die? Who would have killed him? Notice what I read this morning as I studied my Sabbath School lesson:
“Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. The time had come for a final decision; he must fully yield to the divine sovereignty or place himself in open rebellion. He nearly reached the decision to return, but pride forbade him. It was too great a sacrifice for one who had been so highly honored to confess that he had been in error, that his imaginings were false, and to yield to the authority which he had been working to prove unjust. {PP 39.1}
Many were disposed to heed this counsel, to repent of their disaffection, and seek to be again received into favor with the Father and His Son. But Lucifer had another deception ready. The mighty revolter now declared that the angels who had united with him had gone too far to return; that he was acquainted with the divine law, and knew that God would not forgive. {PP 40.3}
In addition, I am still waiting for your response to my argument that, if God lives outside of time, then this would suggest that for God there is no sequence of events. He does not react to new situations. If he does, then your theory is negated, because what he plans today follows what he did before.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 TXalchemist says:
Pat, I had a virus show up too (should have mentioned it, but it was incosequential since my AV software caught and deleted it). But that was only with the HTML version. I downloaded the PDF without and issue, and that is what I'd rather read offline anyway. Suggest you go back and try the PDF.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
"Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office."
Are you prepared to show where the BIble gives such an offer to Lucifer? What Bible are you reading? This is a fiction spun out of whole cloth that cannot be supported from the Bible. It should be labeled "Seventh-day Augmenting of the Bible." This ignores the warning in Revelation about adding to the Bible. If it cannot be validated or verified from the Bible it is extra-biblical and has no place in any religion that claims to be the "Bible and the Bible only."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 Tom says:
Elaine
The quote about Lucifer, I believe it is found in EGW book "The Story of Redemption." Yes indeed it is extra-biblical and there is nothing in the Bible to support such a claim. While it is supposition, and fits nicely into the overall theme of the above book, it can only be considered speculation and not something credible to build on. On the other hand, the notion does paint a nice picture of God. To me it is an exercise in futility to argue this point, because the reality is Lucifer did not make the choice for it to even be a possiblility that God would have done what EGW says, so it is a moot point. Sort of like speculating that if Adam hadn't joined Eve in eating of the forbidden fruit, what would have been the outcome?
Care to chew on that one awhile anyone?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 8th, 2011 Elaine Nelson said:
"Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office."
Are you prepared to show where the BIble gives such an offer to Lucifer? What Bible are you reading? This is a fiction spun out of whole cloth that cannot be supported from the Bible. It should be labeled "Seventh-day Augmenting of the Bible." This ignores the warning in Revelation about adding to the Bible. If it cannot be validated or verified from the Bible it is extra-biblical and has no place in any religion that claims to be the "Bible and the Bible only."
I say: Did I claim that the passage I cited was from the Bible? Did Ellen White ever claim to be writing Scripture? She always stated that her writings were a smaller light designed to lead us to the greater light which is the Bible. Are you suggesting that all the thousands of Bible commentaries should be discarded because they might be interpreted as augmenting Scripture? I am surprised that you are staking a claim to “Sola Scriptura.” Based on some of the comments you have made in the past, I got the impression that you did not believe the Bible. Am I wrong?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Let's write some more imaginative scenarios. There was one from long ago about Lilith, tne "first" Eve, but rejected (?) by Adam. There are a whole host of such tales about creation that have filled libraries. EGW's is only one of many, but the only difference is that too many Adventists have conflated it with the very sparse story in Gensis into a book-length novel, but unlike a novel, they firmly believe it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Adventists have their own history just as do the Mormons. Fortunately, thy are believed only by the faithful.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Of all the commentaries I have consulted, I have never read such a contrived account that cannot be supported in any way by the Bible. A commentary seeks to exegete the text, give the context and authoiship (if it can be determined) but never completely adds a story that has no basis whatsoever in Scripture.
You ask if I believe the Bible. Are you inferring that EGW's writings are equal to the Bible? I believe that the Bible was written by many people during long period of time and described, rather than prescribed their perceptions about God. They were not infallible, only human, with all the foibles, eccentricities and mistaken ideas of mankind. Because someone writes about God, does not make it God's word, anymore than you and I can write about God and it is suddenly infallible and inerrant and truthful in every respect.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 Tom says:
Elaine, cool your jets a bit dear. I agree with you in many ways on this, especially the notion that some Adventists take an extra biblical statement of EGW as fact just because she said it. And we have the nerve to point our fingers at RCC and popery!
It has been years since I read the book, "The Story of Redemption" where I believe she wrote the quote in question about Lucifer. That book is sort of a "fill in the blanks" on the character of God and His purpose in the plan of salvation, more of an exegenesis of sort, rather than a biblical commentary.
Tell me, does it seem out of character of God to do such a thing had Lucifer saw the error of his ways and humbly submitted to God? If memory serves me right, EGW also states in that book that Satan did ask God for reentry into heaven and restoration of his position and was denied because he had carried rebellion too far. The reason being then is that Lucifer was really unrepentant and only regretted the position his rebellion had cost him, and really had no desire to submit to God.
Yes it is speculative to make such statements, but doesn't it fit the general theme of the character of God that he is eager to forgive and redeem, but He can read the motives of the heart and will in no wise give quarter to the phony?
Tell me, has your experience with the church and EGW writings earlier in your life stir up such bitter memories that you are always in attack mode whenever something from the pen of EGW is offered on AT? I can relate in many ways, but I also decided many years ago to try and reconcile it all break camp and move on. I feel bad for you that you seem to have done more than pitch a tent, but have built a fortress at camp bitterness.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Adventists have always spoken out against the Roman Catholic church because it accepts tradition and papal infallibility.
Ditto for Momonism because they have their own prophet who they beieve has spoken to them.
Now, tell me how Adventism is not guilty of the same things for which they indict the other churches?
No, I do not accept the account about Lucifer wishing to be forgiven and taken back. To say this fits with the forgiveness of God, but if that is the example, why will not all us humans be taken back so that none will be lost? Are tjere limits of God's forgivenness? Which is it? Neither is very reassuring.
Admittedly, there may be less dependence on EGW than in the past, but from reading such blogs here and other SDA blogs. it has not been apparent. Is tha "proof" of God's love when we know nothing at all about either Satan or the name he was given after the Jewish exile?
Satan, and the name Lucifer, was first a figure of the Persian religion and was never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible until the Exile. So, to claim that he was first in heaven cannot be shown from the Bible before that time. Even the name "Lucifer" was first attributed to the king of Tyre by Jerome when translating the Bible into Latin. Since then, Dante and Milton found this figure to be an area for imagination because there was so little known about him.
This flies in the face of Adventism's claim to be founded on the Bible and the Bible only. Read any writing in the Review, Ministry, and SDA books and it will be seen that EGW is the most frequently quoted, sometime the only one.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Adventists have always spoken out against the Roman Catholic church because it accepts tradition and papal infallibilit.
Ditto for Momonism because they have their own prophet who they beieve has spoken to them.
Now, tell me how Adventism is not guilty of the same things for which they indict the other churches?
No, I do not accept the account about Lucifer wishing to be forgiven and taken back. To say this fits with the forgiveness of God, but if that is the example, why will not all we humans be taken back so that none will be lost forever? Or, does that represent the limits of God's forgivenness? Which is it? Neither is very reassuring.
Admittedly, there is less dependence on EGW than in the past, but with the recent new SDA president, it seems to have been revived to its former state. If Adventists today can accept that she was inspired when she wrote such fictional accounts, so be it. But that is NOT the position of the entire church, as has been demonstrated here and other SDA blogs. When such "proof" of God's love when we know nothing at all about either Satan or the name he was given after the Jewish exile. Satan, and the name Lucifer, was first a figure of the Persian religion and was never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible until the Exile. So, to claim that he was first in heaven cannot be shown from the Bible before that time. Even the name "Lucifer" was first attributed to the king of Tyre by Jeome when translating the Bible into Latin. Since then, Dante and Milton found this figure to be an area for imagination because there was so little known about him.
This flies in the face of Adventism's claim to be founded on the Bible and the Bible only. Read any writing in the Review Ministry, and SDA books and it will be seen that EGW is the most frequently quoted, sometime the only one.
Check "Lucifer" in Wikipedia to find out the origin of this name. It originated after the close of the canon.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 9th, 2011 CONTROLFREAK111 says:
A search of the quote put's it in 'Patriachs and Prophets' not that this changes the error of the statement in any way.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 10th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
On April 9th, 2011 Elaine Nelson said: “You ask if I believe the Bible.”
I say: Yes, that was my question, because you appealed to “Sola Scriptura,” but based on your answer, it seems to me that you do not really believe in the Bible as the sole source of truth.
You asked: “Are you inferring that EGW's writings are equal to the Bible?”
I say: No. I believe that the degree of inspiration of the Bible is superior to that of Ellen White. I agree with what Ellen said about her writings: Their purpose was to lead us to the greater light—the Bible.
You said: “Of all the commentaries I have consulted, I have never read such a contrived account that cannot be supported in any way by the Bible. A commentary seeks to exegete the text, give the context and authorship (if it can be determined) but never completely adds a story that has no basis whatsoever in Scripture.”
I say: You made a good point, but my understanding is different from yours. The writings of Mrs. White are more than mere Bible commentaries. She was given special revelations from above which the common authors of Bible commentaries do not normally receive. I have never had a visionary experience, while she did. In this sense, her opinions must per force be more authoritative than mine.
You stated: “I believe that the Bible was written by many people during long period of time and described, rather than prescribed their perceptions about God. They were not infallible, only human, with all the foibles, eccentricities and mistaken ideas of mankind.
I say: I agree. Bible writers were not infallible. Even Ellen White did admit that there were errors in the Bible. Does this mean that the Bible is on the level of any other religious book? I don’t think so! The Bible contains what is needed for salvation. In its pages we find the best descriptions of the character of God. In this respect, the Bible is superior to any other book, because it is based on the revelations received from above by men whose objective was to honor the Creator.
You also stated: “Because someone writes about God, does not make it God's word, anymore than you and I can write about God and it is suddenly infallible and inerrant and truthful in every respect.”
I say: Here we part company. What you stated is true about all human beings except those chosen by God to whom the Lord conveyed through visionary experience truths which most people cannot discover by themselves.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 15th, 2011 Doctorf says:
Erv,
I laughed also with the "free and fair" elections comment by Mr. Hammond. I wonder when we will start going behind closed doors and using black or white smoke when the GC president is chosen. Indeed it is a political process and certainly the GC president is not elected by the congregational electorate.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 16th, 2011 Doctorf says:
Hflynn,
I whole heartedly agree with some of what you say. You make my point nicely. This is Gods problem and not mine or yours. Nor should we be concerned with the end of time. When we die our time has ended. With regards to your question "could God be wrong?" I am not sure but the texts you post are not Gods words, but the words of humans expressing their experience and perception of God. That leaves a lot of open territory.
I wish I could be alive 10,000 yrs from now to listen to the apologetic arguments regarding Christ's "soon" return. But, alas I will get no such pleasure.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 16th, 2011 Doctorf says:
Ella,
Why would I describe you in negative terms for what you believe? I would do no such thing. I just think that Christian eschatology takes away from the main points of Jesus philosophy. The issue of the end of time is Gods purview and I can only do the best I can in the mean time. Your argument is one I have heard before that Christ is "delaying" so more can be saved. How do we know that is the case? It's 2000 yrs and counting and I for one am not holding my breath here. As I have said before I would love to be around to hear the apologetic theology explaining why he has not come back in 4,000, 10,000, 100,000 yrs. Maybe he is not coming back. After all of us here are gone the way of the dinosaur we will not care. We did not care before our existence and we will not care a wit about such things after we cease to exist. I stand on the overwhelming evidence that humans never come back once deceased.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 17th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
My question for you is: Why would God make such a great investment of time—33 years; submit himself to suffering, rejection, and shame, and then decide that coming back makes no sense? It took him four thousand years, according to Usher and Ellen White, for his first coming; common sense would suggest that it should take less for him to return for the fruits of his labor of love.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 17th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Common sense and religious belief is an oxymoron.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 17th, 2011 dokimas says:
I'm not a prophet, nor will I proclaim myself to be one (true or false.) But I have decent vision, and a pretty kicking hindsight. Here's what I see:
A bitter old man who will take a tragedy of epic proportions to use for his own angry diatribe on top of a overused soapbox.
I'm incredulous. First, that there is so little thought here as to the fact that you are taking a catastrophe and using it to further your "political" agenda, and second, that you still call yourself an Adventist.
Doesn't the word in itself infer a belief that Christ is coming soon? How will the prophecy be fulfilled? Is Christ speaking allegorically? Are we not to prepare for His soon return? Shall we look at disaster, shrug our shoulders, and say, "Eh. That probably is just nothing,"?
Even people in Japan are talking about God. Read the news. The Tokyo Governor for one. This is not just the "crazy fanatical Adventists." The world is watching. Except you, who are more concerned with his agenda of breaking down "fundemantal Adventism."
Truly, in the last days, false prophets shall come. In this case, although you are correct in your prophscy, you are sorely mistaken when it comes to the signs of the times. My question to you is, why are you an Adventist, if you disagree with the heart of its teachings and with the prophet it upholds? Does not the Bible also say that His people will reject the prophets He sends? I wouldn't use that word lightly to describe myself…
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 17th, 2011 Doctorf says:
Dokimas,
I know Dr. Taylor. Boy did you fall flat on that indictment. He used this incident as an example of SDA's and other Christians trying to anticipate the end of time by pointing to natural phenomena such as earthquakes. He may be older, but hardly bitter. You do not know the man or his life experience. But, you are entitled to your own opinion.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 17th, 2011 Stephen Foster says:
Of course, I disagree with your statement Elaine. However, for sake of discussion, the questions it seems are: do you have more faith than you do common sense; and which is more important to have?
Stephen Foster
Adventist Today blogger
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 18th, 2011 pat travis says:
Common sense is an oxymoron to "faith" only if one has "faith in faith."
The faith I desire and practice does allow common sense as part of "having faith 'in THE faith'" which was deliverd to the saints.
The example of "common sense/wisdom" and pragmatism can be found throughout the instructions of "the faith" as well as the instruction in Proverbs.
Faith in ones faith is not Christian. Faith in Christ the object of our faith is.
One can have "faith" in ones own common sense and be entirely wrong also. :>)
regards,
pat
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 18th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convicitions of things not seen."
Belief and faith are often used synonymously. When speaking of a religious faith or belief, that is the correct terminology as those are personal, but not universal and substantiated facts. There are certain well-established facts that are universally accepted; but religious beliefs have such variance that they cannot be called facts as the term usually applies. The religious belief of Mormonism is far different from most Protestant religions; and within Protestantism there are differences–leading to thousands of separate systems.
Attempting to give reasons for one's faith are only as good as there are mutually held concepts. And anyone conversant with the Bible realizes that there have been hundreds of various denominations all claiming to have this as their sole guide, ignoring that everything within its covers was written by man and his relationship to God. Why is that one book considered the only guide when there are thousands of books written since then by humans about God? What makes that one so reliable and true while the others are merely human ideas?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 18th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
Stephen, one can live without religious faith, but not too well without common sense. We all have "faith" that gravity is operational; that the sun will rise in the East, but religious faith is past reason, as our commonsense denies that a body can rise from the dead; that serpents and donkeys can talk, and food can't drop miraculously from heaven for 40 years.
These are just a few of the things that must rely on faith and not common sense. A Christian believer is expected to accept what he would not believe under ordinary circumstances. If someone sends a message on the internet that Abraham Lincoln has been raised from the dead, would you believe it? After all, no one saw Christ being resurrected, only afterward did they see him, and in a different form so that he was not recognized. That is the difference between faith and common sense. "Religion is believing what you know ain't so."
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 19th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
On April 17th, 2011 Doctorf posted the following comments:
“I know Dr. Taylor. Boy did you fall flat on that indictment. He used this incident as an example of SDA's and other Christians trying to anticipate the end of time by pointing to natural phenomena such as earthquakes. He may be older, but hardly bitter. You do not know the man or his life experience. But, you are entitled to your own opinion.”
I say: I know Dr. Taylor as well, and I do not believe that he is a bitter old man. He is an upbeat critic of some of our Adventists eccentric behaviors. I do disagree with him on creation and evolution, but I did learn from him a few things about life and beliefs. Viewing people in black and white colors do not always reflect reality.
We need to read again what Jesus stated in Matthew 24. He did not say that when we see earthquakes and wars that this was a sign that the Second Coming was around the corner. He rather stated that when the Gospel is preached in all the world, this will be the true sign of his return. I have the impression that Taylor’s prediction had this hidden message in mind. Of course, he can correct me on this!
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 25th, 2011 eddieconst says:
eddiecons:
Mathew 24 stages the second coming in the Apocalyptic universe. It is a strictly literary feature similar to John Milton's use of Ptolemaic cosmology in Paradise Lost.
This was the universe as imagined by Jewish apocryphal writers in the Hellenistic world. It was supposed to refute the scientific cosmology of the Greeks in the same way that E.G. White's visions of origins were supposed to refute the scientific geology in her time. This world-picture entailed among other things a flat earth, intelligent celestial bodies (star falling was an apocalyptic apostasy among stars), the existence of hell and the rationalization of a history going bad for the chosen people as the pangs of the Messianic kingdom.
Mathew 24 is not the only place in the NT were cosmic events are staged in the apocalyptic universe. The ever-burning hell (Luke 16 in particular), the spirits in prison in Peter's letters, the epistle of Jude, refer to or quote from(Jude) the apocalypse of Enoch.
Our interpretation of natural disasters as signs of the second coming is based on confusing Jesus' eschatology with its literary context. Any written text participates in the literary context of its time. Nobody has ever written or can write outside this context. This is why Jesus refused to write. When the authors of the Gospels wrote down Jesus' sayings, they implicitly killed the living Logos. Paul's warning against the letter that kills is true regarding the NT too.
Earth quakes are natural phenomenon. End of story.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 25th, 2011 hflynn says:
Thanks for responding. I appreciate your candidness. If they are not God's words, then we have another issue to face: how authoritative is the Bible? Is it God's words or man's ideas. Please again, I am not arguing, but I am trying to dialog on the issue. I would like to know where you are coming from. You write some interesting posts and I am just wondering what your epistemology is. That way I can understand you better. Thanks again for responding.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 25th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
There were no recording devices when Jesus walked the earth. The Gospel writers were never intending to write a narrative biography, but were writing a theological story to demonstrate that Jesus was the fulfillment of OT prophecies. Nor were they accurate, as is evidenced by many contradictions among the four.
Writing a theological treatise should never be considered as literally true, but is a literary device intended for readers to accept the premise. The Gospel of John disagrees with the other Gospels as to the span of Jesus' ministry, and the day of the crucifixion.
The genealogies in Matthew and Luke cannot be harmonized; the birth stories are in conflict as well as other events. There are far more miracles described in John which He says were to demonstrate He was the Messiah Of course, there is no way of validating any of these stories. They give us far more insight into the perceptions of people of that first century, but everything written at that time cannot be considered literally true today.
Saying the Bible is "God's Word" is a title never conferred from the Bible alone but an ajdective man has applied to the Bible. Surely, the Ecclesiastes did not originate with God, with its most depressive slant; the Proverbs are found in many contemporary cultures. Whether the miracles as described in the Bible actually occured demands one deny his normal reasoning powers. It is an abuse of the Bible to use it as it has been traditionally. There are wonderful concepts but not necessarily good advice in all that is written. It should be needless to point out all these, but the lists are humungous.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 26th, 2011 eddieconst says:
eddieconst
I believe that our epistemological blind-spot is the antagonism between Torah and Logos as the true method of revelation. Torah implies that revelation is complete in the written word. Logos entails the concept that the pursue of truth is an open-ended dialogue (dialectics) of which the written word is just a ghost.
Said Socrates:
I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may be said of speeches. You would imagine that they had intelligence, but if you want to know anything and put a question to one of them, the speaker always gives one unvarying answer. And when they have been once written down they are tumbled about anywhere among those who may or may not understand them, and know not to whom they should reply, to whom not: and, if they are maltreated or abused, they have no parent to protect them; and they cannot protect or defend themselves.
The problem with the written word is that the thesis-antithesis-synthesis cycle of the living pursuit of truth is frozen in its contradictions. This is why the Bible when considered as Torah, i.e. self-sufficient as a text will, will ultimately fall trough its inherent contradictions. And so we always have to build another written revelation, be it the Talmud, SOP, or tradition, to rescue it.
Jesus' own method was unambiguously dialectical in the sermon on the Mount (“you were told.. but I tell you”), he rejected the written word as sufficient (John 5:39), and refused to write save on sand. Pule explicitly declared the the letter to be dead.
The superstition of the all-sufficient letter was held by the Judeo-Christians who opposed Paul. It was revived in the Catholic Dogma, the protestant naïve “the-Bible-our-only-creed” illusion, biblical inerrancy, creeds, and of course, our 28 statements of belief.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 26th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
On April 25th, 2011 eddieconst said:
“This is why Jesus refused to write. When the authors of the Gospels wrote down Jesus' sayings, they implicitly killed the living Logos. Paul's warning against the letter that kills is true regarding the NT too.”
I say: If Jesus refused to write except on the sand in order to avoid killing the Logos, why then we have so many statements instructing God’s men to write starting with Moses and ending with John the Revelator? Did the Lord hate to kill the Logos, but told his messengers to do it for him?
Do you perceive a problem here for your theory? How do you explain the fact that Paul, who told us that the letter kills, yet he became one of the most prolific in his writings? Was his objective also to kill the Logos?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 26th, 2011 dokimas says:
Doctorf,
You're right. I recant. I suppose I came out too strong in the case of making inferences regarding the character of a person I don't know. But from the sounds of it, it sure seems as though there's a chip on the shoulder. It hurts me to see such a tragedy being used as an opportunity to decry a certain position in the church. There was very little sensitivity displayed towards the suffering in this post. I felt (granted, it may not have been intended as such) similar emotions as when I saw a bunch of picketers at the gravesite of a fallen soldier, holding up signs that said he was going to hell. Have some respect. There will be mourners at the gravesite, and there will be people proclaiming prophecies at major physical events. But the mockery… that's not necessary.
The question still stands, if natural phenomena, as Jesus pointed out, is not to be interpreted as a sign of the end, what is?
Should we as Adventists no longer look to signs that mark the coming of God as depicted in the Bible? Is it worse to be prepared, or to shrug a shoulder and be caught unawares?
Jesus specifically said that we are to take natural phenomena as signs of the end. For inasmuch as we don't know the day or the hour, we can anticipate as we can anticipate the progress of the seasonal cycle.
"Watch and pray," Christ says. Is this article promoting this?
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 26th, 2011 Elaine Nelson says:
How can one prepare for a "thief in the night"? What does it mean to "get ready" or "be ready"? Is this something only done just before He comes? If we don't know the hour, that is impossible.
The entire idea of anything: signs, prayer, or perfection, as controlling or influencing God to come is antithetical to "No one knows the day and hour."
Could it be that if we promoted a life of forgiveness, patience, and encouraging and helping others that it is the one and only way we can be "ready"? Being busy with such acitivites will not leave much time worrying about which of the "signs" indicate the Second Coming is "around the corner.
BTW, the old song "She'll be comin' round the mountain" is based on the Second Coming.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 27th, 2011 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.letsfocusonlife.com
On April 26th, 2011 dokimas said:“The question still stands, if natural phenomena, as Jesus pointed out, is not to be interpreted as a sign of the end, what is?”
I say: Jesus made it crystal clear. He said that wars and rumors of wars are not signs that the end is around the corner: “but the end is still to come.” The KJV is even clearer: “but the end is not yet.”
The real sign of the end is found in verse 14: “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”
*********
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 27th, 2011 Seminarystudent1 says:
Seminary Student,
I find interesting that Jack Sequeira the one from 1888 committee looks alike to Ervin . I wonder if they are related .
Re: An Earthquake and a Prophecy
On April 29th, 2011 Tom says:
Very good points Elaine. This get ready mode tends to set in motion a never ending need to follow a script of sorts with long lists of preparations, signal signs and a panic modus operandi as it appears to be nearing the end. Like some people who are always getting ready for a trip. Seems like they are always making a list and checking it twice and are up the night before into the wee hours rushing around making certain every thing is in order for the trip. In there mind they would never be ready if they had a millennium to prepare.
Contrast that with one who knows what it means to be ready. Bags are packed and simple tasks of preparation are in order so that at a moments notice they can leave. The illustration that the Second Coming is like a thief in the night, depicts that it will be when one least expects it. The best way to prepare for a possible "thief in the night" is to have a burglar alarm, set it before you go to bed and retire to a good nights sleep and not worry. The get ready crowd prefer to nervously stay up night after night with a shotgun on their lap waiting for the fateful moment. Now tell me which one is better rested in the morning and more prepared to do some of the things you suggest, and which one looks like they are half dead from working the graveyard shift too many years? The answer is obvious.
