Adventist Revelation Scholar Reflects on Pope’s Visit to the U.S.
September 28, 2015: The audience required extra rooms and some were standing after all the seats were taken on Sabbath afternoon (September 26) at Loma Linda University when Dr. Jon Paulien, a top Adventist expert on the Book of Revelation and dean of the university’s School of Religion, spoke on “Bible Prophecy and the Pope’s Visit.” The presentation was held in Damazo Amphitheater in the Centennial Complex and seen live on line in both Australia and Europe. It was part of a lecture series on “Adventism and the World in 2015.”
In the introduction, Dr. David Larson, a religion faculty member, referred to Paulien’s extensive writings, including more than 25 books, much of which has dealt with interpretations of the New Testament Book of Revelation. Larson also noted that Paulien is well known as a bridge builder among Seventh-day Adventists with credibility among many of the contending theological camps.
Paulien’s presentation ranged over a number of issues, at least some of which are difficult to describe in a brief news report. This summary includes what Adventist Today reporters at the lecture took to be the most salient points, including some comments from the audience during the question time.
Paulien began by noting that the Adventist movement in its formative years positioned itself “in contrast” to other Christian bodies, particularly in how it viewed the Roman Catholic Church. He observed that an unfortunate result in some cases was “Catholic bashing” which often had the effect of “closing minds” not opening ears to the Adventist message. This approach was contrasted with those advocated at Adventist institutions which in “the ministry of healing” try to be “inclusive” in relating to other Christian bodies.
He summarized the traditional “Adventist scenario” of Revelation Chapter 13. This interpretation understands the beast from the sea as representing the medieval papal institution and the beast coming from the earth as the United States. The speaker commented on the “great irony” of a prediction that a combination of American and Papal power at the “end of time” will represent “the face of Christianity.” In other words, from a conventional Adventist perspective, “Babylon” will have a “Christian face.” He then asked the question that if this understanding is correct, “what do we do with such information?”
Several in the audience told an Adventist Today reporter that they were surprised and disappointed that Paulien did not mention widely-discussed objections to the conventional Adventist interpretation that have come from a number of Adventist commentators. At different places during his lecture and in the question period, he made it clear that he agreed with the historic Adventist interpretation of Revelation 13. He proposed no substantive change in the Adventist interpretation, stating that he agrees with the “larger picture of Revolution 13 as taught by the Adventist Church.” He advocated saying what Adventists have always believed, but in a more respectful, courteous and vulnerable manner.
The focus of Paulien’s concern was, if the standard Adventist interpretation of this chapter is correct, how should Adventists communicate that understanding? He expressed concern that some Adventists make their prophetic understanding of Revelation the “center and focus” of their faith and outreach to the world. Revelation 13 must be viewed in the context of a larger, balanced approach to Scripture, he stated. He cautioned that when there is an unbalanced focus, it results in gathering other unbalanced people.
An example of this he mentioned is mass mailing the Ellen White volume, The Great Controversy to Philadelphia households prior to the arrival of the Pope last week. He also mentioned the “infamous” billboard campaign by an Adventist splinter group denouncing the Catholic faith. He said actions of this type counterproductive, causing “more anger than curiosity.” He noted that the anti-Catholic stance in some Adventist evangelism is not—and repeated “not” twice —part of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the Adventist denomination. It does not represent the core of Adventist faith, he said.
Paulien suggested that the function of this traditional approach to evangelism is to erect a “boundary marker” for those who need “clarity” and “no ambiguity” in their understanding of the Bible. It has proved to be successful in public evangelism, but only in other times and today in places outside the United States, Europe and other developed nations.
He also stated his regret that unrepresentative, non-authoritative statements of Catholic beliefs have been used in Adventist evangelism which undercuts the integrity of the Adventist message. The only sources that should be used to present an accurate understanding of Catholic belief and practice are the decisions of the major Councils and ex Cathedra statements of the Popes. This standard would exclude the use of various catechisms that have been quoted.
Why has the traditional understanding of prophecy and particularly its identification of the “Mark of the Beast” with the Catholic Church become so widely used in Adventist evangelism? To answer this question, Paulien reviewed the historic and sociological contexts of the rise of anti-Catholic views in the United States. He began by noting that Protestant faith has been the dominant religion in America from the colonial era. The first immigrants came from Northern Europe where Protestants are dominate. Very few were from other religions.
Protestant faith, particularly of the Puritan variety, was practiced by a hard working, “strict and sober,” largely Anglo-Saxon population in New England where the Adventist movement began. For example, many 19th century Protestant groups prohibited alcohol and dancing. The mainline Protestant churches as late as the 1880s disapprove of wedding rings. In the mid-19th century, a relatively small wave of Irish Catholics arrived as the result of the potato famine in the 1840s, settling primarily in eastern seaboard cities. At the time, their impact on America was small because the bulk of the population lived on farms and in villages in the interior.
The large influx of Catholic immigrants occurred at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century when the major source shifted to southern and eastern Europe. The culture and religion of these new immigrants was in sharp contrast to Protestant majority. It included bars, carnivals and other “pagan excesses” to the minds of the majority of Americans of the time. Bars as social gathering places for working class immigrants were considered one of the unwanted parts of the new urban landscape. To the Protestant, rural majority, these new immigrants threatened the “very fiber and culture of American faith.”
Since the dominant religion of these new immigrants was Roman Catholic, strong anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic feelings emerged in the United States. Newspapers of the time had commentary and cartoons about the “Catholic hordes.” It was widely stated that these groups practiced a “way of life” that threatened American values. Paulien suggested that the origins of anti-Catholic views could be traced to these social and political factors more than objections to Catholic doctrines. In this historical context the Adventist Church discovered that associating the Papacy with the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13 was an effective evangelistic tool.
Paulien pointed out that the cultural landscape in the United States is quite different now in early 21st century. The contexts in which Adventist evangelism communicates today in America is vastly changed. The Protestant religion is no longer dominant. The young generations include large numbers with a post-modern cultural and religious orientation. These segments value authenticity and integrity. As a consequence, the classic Adventist evangelistic approach which had its origins in another era no longer is very productive among large portions of the public here and in other industrialized countries. When sermons, broadcasts or materials include a frontal assault that is interpreted by hearers as anti-Catholic, they view the Adventist Church as a sect and cult. It becomes self-defeating approach.
This leads to the question, when, how and where should the Adventist understanding of prophecy be expressed? What do we do with Revelation 13 in a very religiously diverse, post-modern world that values “diversity, inclusiveness, and tolerance?” How do we avoid the negative stereotype of the intolerant Christian to get a hearing? Being “all things to all people is becoming harder at a time when it is more necessary.” In such an environment, Adventists must recognize that “there are all kinds of Catholics just as there are all kinds of Adventists.”
Paulien offered several reasons as to why the message of Revelation 13 is “liberating” for all Christians. First, whenever a religion places emphasizes on its institutions, this communicates a “distorted image” of the nature of God and how He operates. Revelation 13 can be interpreted as countering the belief that we can be saved by our own actions and that the only way to approach God is through a human institution. He noted that the medieval papacy may be considered a “poster-child” of how that problem has been manifested, but no Christian group has failed at one time or another by putting the welfare of its organization ahead of its mission.
“Adventists do not believe that the Mark of the Beast will only fall on other churches,” Paulien said. “We believe that it will fall on us as well.” He argued that at the end, all Christians will face the same decision. The question is will they follow the “radical faith of Jesus” or will they follow the path of easy approval. In that day, no matter what religious tradition they are following—Adventist, Catholic or other—all will face the same decision. “While Adventists may do it poorly at times, our challenge is to prepare all for that decision. At that time, we all will be operating on the same level.” It is time, he insisted, that “Adventists talk about the message of Revelation 13 in the context of its impact on us.”
During the question time, one person asked Paulien if he saw the rise of Islam in the prophesy of either Daniel or Revelation. Paulien’s response was that he saw no evidence of that but was aware that others may not agree. In response to another question, Paulien stated that Pope Francis “was doing the things that Jesus did” in many respect which is the likely key to the pope’s popularity.
This brief review cannot do justice to the many themes and issues discussed during Paulien’s presentation and the question session that followed. The event was taped and may be obtained from the Loma Linda University Church.
Following the meeting, an Adventist Today reporter was able to speak with Paulien and asked why the presentation avoided the possibility that the traditional Adventist interpretation of Revelation 13 is not correct. “I don’t assume that Revelation 13 was written with that in mind,” he told the reporter, referring to the Papacy. “The author says that he received his information from God, but I would understand if someone does not accept this. If you follow the reasoning of the book, it is presenting what the people of God will experience from his time down to the end of time.” The book “combines a visionary experience and a lot of research…. If God is involved in the visionary process, then God is using the individual [writing the book]…. The purpose of prophecy is not to foretell the future but to effect how the reader looks at the present situation.”
In summary, nothing has changed. Dr. Paulien merely affirmed that the vision interpreting Revelation is still the Adventist message.
Of what salvific importance is belief in this interpretation and why should Christians accept it on the basis of the interpretation of one man’s “vision” in a cornfield?
Elaine – You’ve gotten things all mixed up here. Hiram Edson’s vision in the cornfield was about the sanctuary message, not about Revelation 13. Better get your facts straight!
The talk can be seen here
https://youtu.be/oZ-h8urfU7c
I wrote a reaction to this event here
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/09/24/viewpoint-antichrist-fever-pope-us
Thanks for the report on his more personal views on the matter.
“The purpose of prophecy is not to foretell the future but to effect how the reader looks at the present situation”
Is there any credibility in that statement? He’s made Bible Prophecy so ambiguous who could know its interpretation?” How we look at the “present situation” is in most cases superficial and does not represent the truth or reality. Should the “reader” be concerned with their spiritual condition or the world’s activities in regards to that “present situation”? Would one of those options answer your question, Elaine?
The purpose of Bible Prophecy, I repeat, Bible Prophecy, is to reveal Jesus Christ and the Love of God, through His Son, toward us; our salvation; our relationship with Him; and our spiritual condition. After all, Prophecy is from the Spirit of God, a testimony within the true believer’s heart, of Jesus the Christ.
I think that the purpose of Biblical Prophecy is certainly the revelation of Jesus Christ…but we need not denied that within this revelation there is more at stake than just our personal status before God..it goes further into the revelation of an universe at stake, and its salvation as found in Christ’s sacrifice.. …
I think that EGW better understood it and put it in the title of his book the Great Controversy and what it is written there (that many now a days want to ignore)…this revelation defining these stakes..you might called it
“A TALE OF TWO KINGDOMS”
THE PARTIES=
THE KINGDOM OF GOD, HIS GOVERNEMENT AND HIS LAWS
VERSUS
THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTIGOD, HIS GOVERMENT, AND HIS CHANGE LAW
THE RESULT=
SALVATION BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, NOT ONLY FOR US HUMANS BUT FOR THE UNIVERSE IN GENERAL.
WITHIN THAT CONTEXT…the Conflict of Ages comes into focus, the Savior and what He did becomes evident…
and the Antigod, the conflict he created and his defeat becomes evident…
You see the ultimate purpose of Christ’s salvation, is to gives us salvation and in the process eliminate sin not only from us…but from any future possible incursion in the whole universe at large.
WAS DR. PAULIEN ADDRESSING THE CONFLICT WE ARE IN AS THIS WORLD HISTORY CLOSES? WERE THE PROPER IDENTIFICATIONS AND WARNINGS GIVEN? THAT IS PART OF THE MESSAGE, CERTAINLY NOT THE CENTRAL ONE. ONE THING IS CERTAIN WE WILL NOT FALTER BY REMAINING FAITHFUL TO THE BIBLE AND THE SOP…
Nini,
You wrote: “there is more at stake than just our personal status before God..it goes further into the revelation of an universe at stake, and its salvation as found in Christ’s sacrifice”.
How would you like me to respond to your statement, with my own “opinion”? Not so.
“6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts1:6-8.
Our personal salvation is first and foremost. Without that taking place there can be no desire for us to witness for Christ. The Universal salvation is just that, the corporate responsibility of God. We can become part of His Heavenly Kingdom, working together with Him, for the purpose of universal salvation. Our concern is not with what the future holds in relation to this Universe because that belongs to God.
You wrote: “I think that EGW better understood it and put it in the title of his book the Great Controversy” Not interested in what she had to say. Her writings are the imaginations of her own heart. Get back to the “Living Holy Scriptures” and let the Holy Spirit guide you into all Truth.
Peace.
It is obvious you have rejected the Spirit of Prophecy and the timely messages there given as built upon the scriptures as the one and only foundation…as such we do not have a common ground for discussion.
At the end…. time will tell who is right and who is wrong, meanwhile my advice is to reconsider your position, because our church whether you like it or not has been blessed by the Word of God and EGW writings whose message is God given and further anchors us to God’s Word and its proper understanding.
This God’ given message of the SOP, one of its most important functions, is to spare us from the onslaught by institutions and individuals which like you want to change the message and establish their own… the wrong one at that!!!
Friend I tell you and others like you which want to diminished or eliminate the SOP, that your labors are and will be totally in vain…because the truth conquers all…The Word of God is the truth, and the SOP is based in the Word of God…whether you care to admitt it or not!!!
Bru,
You wrote: “Friend I tell you and others like you which want to diminished or eliminate the SOP, that your labors are and will be totally in vain…because the truth conquers all…The Word of God is the truth, and the SOP is based in the Word of God…whether you care to admitt it or not!!!”
Firstly, the “SOP” “Spirit of Prophecy” is a title taken by the SDA church from the Spirit of God Himself:
Jesus Christ said: “13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.” John 16:13-15.
“11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” 1 John 5:11, 12.
“But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”. Rev. 19:10.
My friend, the “Testimony of Jesus” is the Holy Spirit Testifying in the heart of all true believers concerning Jesus Christ. It is not the writings of EGW. That belief, which you have of her, is utter falsehood. Will you admit you’re wrong?
Bru,
You wrote: “This God’ given message of the SOP, one of its most important functions, is to spare us from the onslaught by institutions and individuals which like you want to change the message and establish their own… the wrong one at that!!!”
The so-called “God given message of the SOP” is EGW’s pre-emptive attack on those who will oppose her and her messages, not the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is her “most important function”. The Holy Scriptures speaks for itself and does not need any human defense. I am not seeking to change her message and definitely not trying to establishing my own. That is your perception of all those who reject her writings and remain totally focused on the Holy Scriptures.
You wrote: “because our church whether you like it or not has been blessed by the Word of God and EGW writings whose message is God given and further anchors us to God’s Word and its proper understanding.” If EGW anchors you to God’s Word, then why do you keep returning to her writings? If she gives you “proper understanding”, then what have you done with the Holy Spirit?
Mixing the Holy Scriptures with false human doctrines will leave you, in the end, rejecting both. Confusion will reign. Remember: Satan quoted Scripture when he tempted Jesus Christ, albeit deceptively.
As I said before: Prove me wrong and I’ll never say a word against her again. Only do it using Scripture and only Scripture.
Instead of name calling, why not have a civil discussion? I am not certain anyone is necessarily rejecting Ellen White – just asking if we have interpreted what she said correctly – according to a very simple hermeneutic she herself laid down for us..
Both the Bible and Ellen White say that all prophecy is conditional upon human actions and choices. (If you wish more detail, I wrote a blog post on the subject a few months back on the Adventist Today website.) If she was indeed a prophet, then we have to accept her statements about the nature of prophecy or else we are as guilty, or maybe much more so, as those we accuse of somehow rejecting her. In other words, you can’t take her words very literally in one place and not in another and still maintain your credibility.
Both Isaiah and Jonah prophesied at God’s command, without equivocation, that God was going to destroy Assyria – then when Assyria repented, God repented (changed his mind) and left Jonah pouting under a bush saying that God had let him down and embarrassed him as he knew he would (why he didn’t want to go on the mission to Assyria in the first place).
None of us knows how human choices and events may make our most cherished ideas and interpretations not come true – even those we have based our whole apocalyptic on – even when they have been given by a prophet every bit as inspired as Jonah or Isaiah.
Much as we wish it were, prophecy is not set in stone and never has been.
It is more than simply a testimony of Jesus Christ. Why do I say this: Because Jesus told us that “he tells us before it happens so that when it happens we can believe.” Prophecy and what it means is therefore very germane to a person’s individual walk with Christ. I read the Great Controversy in the mid 80’s, and what Sr. White was claiming was so preposterous that I simply laid the book down and went on my way. But events that have happened in 2001, 2005, and yes this year has solidified my faith that God knows the end from the future. I no longer doubt the veracity of her words. My main goal is life is to know Jesus, even as I am known by Him. My second goal is to show this Jesus to all I meet so that they can have the chance to love Him as I have grown to love Him. Prophecy; seeing it fulfilled right before my eyes, has strengthened my walk with God.
Marilyn,
I agree with much of what wrote. Our desire should be to know and Love our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; and to testify of Him to others.
Just to clarity my point earlier:
“26 But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.” John 15:26, 27.
I have a question: What Prophecy have you seen being fulfilled right before your eyes? If this question is personal, then don’t answer it.
Peace.
Daniel,
Wonderful news! The Helper is here and waiting for us to let Him empower us today! We don’t have to wait for any “latter rain” somewhere off in the indefinite future because He wants to start working in and through us today to prepare us so we’ll be ready to receive greater power later.
Daniel says that “The purpose of Bible Prophecy, I repeat, Bible Prophecy, is to reveal Jesus Christ and the Love of God, through His Son, toward us; our salvation; our relationship with Him; and our spiritual condition.” I’m so glad that Daniel can tell us this. However, I guess I don’t understand what the difference is between his statement and Dr. Paulien’s statement. I guess we must way these things only using certain special words.
Ervin,
Thank you for complimenting my “certain special words”. Did that give readers more in-depth understanding of the purpose of Prophecy or this: “The purpose of prophecy is not to foretell the future but to effect how the reader looks at the present situation”?
Tell me, Ervin, what does his statement really mean, seeing I missed the point?
What “present situation” is he referring to?
What “situation” does every reader find themselves in?
Or, is the “present situation”, at which people are “looking” at, a fabrication of lies based on false interpretations of Bible Prophecy?
You are an intelligent man, Ervin, I’m sure you can help me here?
Dr. Jon Paulien is a poised and polished orator with a timely presentation. The pope’s visit, unaccompanied by pomp and pageantry, but with compassion and humility, somewhat deflated a panicked paranoia among conservative Adventists about the immanency of Sunday Laws.
I too was somewhat deflated —by Paulien’s presentation. I had anticipated some inflammatory new interpretation.
He mildly hewed to the traditional Adventist doctrine, but with an appeal for “political correctness” in its delivery to “outsiders”. In all, it was somewhat anti-climactic.
His historical review of the anti-Catholicism in America engendered by the waves of Catholic immigrants was illuminating. Since EGW was so influenced by her era and extensively “borrowed ” from her contemporary sources, could this anti-Catholic sentiment have unduly influenced her interpretations of Revelation 13?
Today, would she invoke radical Islam, as “the beast “? ISIS is so brutally barbaric, intrinsically evil,and anti-Christian. The billion plus Catholics on this planet adulate Christ and accept His salvation. The billion plus Muslims do not.
Martin Luther had no use for Revelation and would not have included it in scripture.
The book’s obscure, abstruse symbolism has had numerous decipherings — they are a puzzle wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma, to quote Winston Churchill. (he was talking about the Russians )
None of this is intrinsic to our salvation.
Revelations 2:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Robin,
I understand where you’re coming from. Still, I think he was touching on a very important point where perhaps he had to tread lightly to prevent arousing vigorous opposition. Church growth in North America is stalling and in a few years may even turn negative because of our growing disconnection from society. We’ve become irrelevant, in a large part because we’ve been so focused on presenting a particular view of prophecy that the world isn’t listening to any more. Is that prophetic view the entire Gospel? No! There is much more to the Gospel and ministering God’s redeeming love than just Rev. 13. Just as the apostle Paul said he “became all things to all people” so he could share the Gospel with them, since the world around us is focused on other topics the challenge for us is to learn to present the Gospel in their terms so they will understand and be drawn to Him. Doing that requires that we bury our focus on Rev. 13 at the bottom of our tool box under a whole lot of other, more useful and effective tools that we use more often.
By the way, Churchill was quoting one of the first British governors of Hong Kong, who wrote that description about the Chinese.
I do believe that was Dr. Jon’s point. He has walked a walk that many of us have done as well, seeing our best efforts in our misguided notions to share the “truth” with other backfire in an ugly non redemptive way (been there, done that). Rather than drawing close to those who are in error, we from the margins hurl denunciations without much thought and push people farther from truth and confirm in others our lack of Christian wisdom and grace. Dr. Jon didn’t back away from our interpretation. He was only sharing how we need to be much more adroit in our presentations of it.
Considering the limited amount of his talk that was reported I must allow for your observation to be accurate. I fully agree that we must be more adroit in our presentations. Indeed, our skill in communicating spiritual themes to different cultural groups is one of our greatest challenges because one style or form of presentation does not reach all.
I have watched the entire presentation and one thing left out of the report was the opening remarks about his experience as a pastor giving a Revelation evangelistic presentation and out of that it was reinforced in him the need to be fair with our facts about the Church, where we get them, and how and when to use them. Sadly, people feel he was weak on our message, or he didn’t go far enough in dealing with the challenges to our SDA interpretation of Rev. 13. Jon trying to navigate a middle of the road balanced approach without surrendering Adventist viewpoints on the chapter gives the extremes on either end heartburn because he won’t go fully into either camp. I respect that very much as I see things very much as he does.
It seems that few recognize how that typical evangelistic approach has basically been abandoned in places like Europe and even in South America, long ago because it didn’t work, doesn’t work, and other approaches must take place. It only seems in America and perhaps Africa and Asia do we continue with the typical approaches we take in sharing the message. Jon’s take is that for the most part we are doing ourselves more harm than good to our image and the ability to capture the attention of the world we are trying to reach.
SEEMS TO ME THAT WE ARE FORGETTING THAT THE POPE IS A JESUITS, WHICH ARE KNOWN BY THEIR CANNY USE OF DECEPTION. I PERSONALLY DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYBODY TO LOOK AT THE MINOR THINGS THE POPE DOES, AS HIS USING OF A FIAT (MEANWHILE ALL THE RICHES OF ROME ARE STILL THEIRS) OR HIS JOLLY PRESENTATION. I WILL TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE WHAT IT IS APPARENT THAT IT HAPPENED LAST WEEK= PAPAL ROME CAME AND CONQUERED…
YES CONQUERED USA AND CONQUERED THE UNITED NATIONS,
DOING SO BY LAUNCHING THE NEW WORLD ORDER,
WHICH IS A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT AND A ONE WORLD RELIGION
THE POPE HIMSELF DECLARING HIMSELF LEADER OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER, which means the ruler of a one world government/empire(as shown in his presentation to the UNITED NATIONS) and leader of a one world religion, as symbolized by his gathering with all other religions at ground zero.
So biblically speaking what did the Pope launched…?
Why was this Sept. meeting of such relevance?
this verse..answers those questions…=
Speaking of the adulterous(apostate/Eze. 16) women(church) and city in one, a chimera, a city.state (same as a religious kingdom) that during the time of the end(our times) is to rule the kingdoms of the world..the Bible confirms what we all know(as the SOP has also told us)=
Rev 17:18
And the woman(CHURCH/EZE.16) which thou sawest
is that great city(KINGDOM/BEAST/DAN.7:23),
which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(10kings/10horns)
Yes the Empire of Babylon the Great(Papal…
Nini,
You wrote:
“Rev 17:18
And the woman(CHURCH/EZE.16) which thou sawest is that great city(KINGDOM/BEAST/DAN.7:23), which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(10kings/10horns)
Yes the Empire of Babylon the Great(Papal…”
“24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” Rev. 18:24.
“and of all who were slain on the earth”: doesn’t that mean all the way back to Abel? I don’t see the papacy back there, do you? Where do murders come from? From the heart of man. They have not been limited to the time when the Roman rulers, or when the Papacy appeared on the scene, but throughout all of this world’s history.
Read Revelation 17 and 18 again. Does it not describe the spirit of that “queen of heaven”, to which the women baked cakes and worshipped, with the consent of their husbands? What does it say in Rev.18:7 and Jer.7:16-19?
How does the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ speak to us individually? If it shows the world at large, then what benefit is that to our spiritual preparation?
Just a few things to consider.
Peace.
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Dan you quoted what I wrote=
“Rev 17:18
And the woman(CHURCH/EZE.16) which thou sawest is that great city(KINGDOM/BEAST/DAN.7:23), which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(10kings/10horns). (Yes the Empire of Babylon the Great(Papal Rome)”
You also quoted what the same prophecy says about her=
“24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” Rev. 18:24.
Your commentary followed=>>>>“and of all who were slain on the earth”: doesn’t that mean all the way back to Abel? I don’t see the papacy back there, do you?
You are failing to see …that the women(church) is riding the dragon, a dual application to her own empire and the empire that sponsors her(Satan’s empire), as such she becomes part of an organization which has persecuted the saints from Abel’s time…
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
In order to understand the symbol of “the women riding the beast” you need to know certain points=
CONTINUING ANSWERING DAN…
you are failing to see the dual understanding of the prophetic message in Revelation, in this case we are discussing Rev. 17 and failing to see the specific time period there presented. As such you are not seeing that the symbol of Satan and his empire, has its counterpart during the time of the end(there addressed by the angel of the plagues) to the earthly empire of Rome/Papal phase…In Rev. 17 addressing the times of the 6th/Wounded head, 7th/healed.Revived head, and final 8th/Re-wounded head, as the descriptions of the events show..
Although you are right the whole symbol addresses Satan and his empire, yet the same symbol also addresses the earthly empire that serve him during THE TIME OF THE END (as can be understood when one takes in consideration that it is one of the Angels of the Plagues which is showing events referring to its initial powerless/WOUNDED stage, then “Revived” stage and “final demised”(this later stages alluded also in the 6th and 7th plagues in Rev. 16). You, in fact, have a very limited approach which hinders your understanding of the prophetic message…How?
simply because you have =
1) failed to see the earthly application of the symbols and
2) failed to see the associated events there described…and
3)you failed to see the time factor…
You are limiting yourself to the spiritual application of the symbols to Satan and his spiritual kingdom, which is true, but that is an incomplete…
Bru,
Thank you for your views regarding Rev. 17 and 18.
Let me start with this: The wickedness of the world is the outward manifestations of the heart of man. What is outside came from inside. What is outside cannot be fixed without first dealing with the heart of man. The world is physical; the heart of man is spiritual. The Holy Scriptures are Spiritual and they deal with the spiritual realm. The Spirit of God moves in human hearts to create a New Man within, the flesh profits nothing. Babylon of the world outside is the fruits of the spiritual Babylon from within the heart of man.
Have I confused you?
Let me ask you a few questions:
1. In all your understanding of Bible Prophecy, as you watch it being, so-called, fulfilled, in relation to the events of this world’s politics, the Vatican, wars, disasters and the like, how do you see Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit working?
2. If Bible Prophecy is all about understanding the world around us, then how do we understand what is going on in our hearts in relation to our Salvation?
The Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Prophetic witness of that spiritual work within those who believe, this is why it clearly states:
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near”. Rev.1:3.
The Bible is a Mirror, not a window to see the world around us.
Do you now understand from where I am coming from?
Bru,
In response to your post, October 7, 2015 at 9:53 am:
You lost me. I’m totally confused. My God is of a sound mind, not of confusion. Sorry to disappoint you but that’s the truth.
Everyone who tries to connect Bible prophecy with worldly affair and historical events will, in the end, fall flat on their face. I’ve seen it over and over again.
I’m not sure if this link is still working but have a read of what Cottrell presents in regards to Daniel 8:14 and the 2300 day prophecy.
http://www.rethinkingadventism.com/support-files/cottrell_1844.pdf
I’m not against you.
NINI,
I could only get as far as “the pope being a Jesuit” in this diatribe. FYI the pope is a Franciscan, after St. Francis, one of history’s most humble, caring priests.
EM,
You are misinformed about the Pope…
He is a Jesuit
And he “adopted” his name Francis..with a dual application, to St. Francis and in honor of the second in command in initial organization of the Jesuist order, a Francisco (2nd after Inigo…+
FROM WIKIPEDIA.=
Bergoglio(THE POPE FRANCIS) completed his final stage of spiritual training as a Jesuit, tertianship, at Alcalá de Henares, Spain. He took the final fourth vow (obedience to the pope) in the Society of Jesus on 22 April 1973, which added to the previous three.[32] 35]
Thank you Robin for your comparison of Catholicism with ISIS. I was accepted into the Catholic church some four years ago, which followed thirty-two years in the Seventh-day Adventist church – twenty-nine of those years having been a Sabbath School teacher and thirteen years as employee of the church – both in the mission field and in my home country.
I do my best to attend mass daily as well as on Sundays. Your mentioning that the billion plus Catholics adulate Christ and accept his salvation is quite correct. I have to admit, and I am sorry to have to write that I have never,in the SDA church,found or experienced the kind of adulation for Christ which Catholics practise. I am not writing that SDA’s do not adulate Christ but I am hard put to find the sacredness and deep reverence which I find in the Catholic church. It is indeed unfortunate that the majority of Adventists have probably never attended mass or observed the primacy of the worship of Jesus in the Catholic mass. It would be good if SDA’s visited us without bringing preconceived opinions which have no validity in the twentieth century.
I appreciated Dr. Paulien’s point about the traditional SDA view has led to “Catholic bashing” and defining boundaries instead of reaching-out and drawing people into the Kingdom of God. If we are to become more effective at growing the Kingdom, then we must learn how to better relate to people of other faith experiences and minister God’s powerful and transforming love to them. The process of learning to minister that love requires that we first be changed by it and then continually be growing in it so others can see things in us that they want and be drawn to God. Catholic-bashing doesn’t do that, so we’ve got a real challenge in learning how to shift our prophetic focus away from obsession with the Papacy to being enthralled with Jesus, who is the ultimate focus of prophecy.
My feelings exactly, William.
The reason why the Church is not growing in America and Europe is because most of the church leaders and members are just like the worldly people and they want worldly standards in the church. For example, how can the entire Netherlands Conference accept that homosexuals should feel safe in the church and should be accepted as church members with there sinful practice? Such Conference leaders who support such things are not true Adventists, but just Saturn’s decoys within the church.
Proclaim,
Does your church accept you as a church member with all your sinful practices?
Do you feel safe in church continuing in sin?
We all have sinful practices every day. Why should some be shunned more severely then others?
Cherry,
Your incisive, insightful, intuitive response to PROCLAIM was magnificent!
When Procalim discovers that he has sons/daughters/grandchildren/nieces/nephews/cousins who are LGBT, he might show more love, inclusion and compassion
With a one in twenty demographic of being gay/lesbian, it does not take too many relatives to have one in the family.
My guess is that with Proclaim’s hateful homophobia, his gay/lesbian relatives have not “come out to him” yet.
Why are you so afraid of having homosexuals in the church? Didn’t Jesus die so that sinners can be saved? Didn’t He send believers out in the power of the Holy Spirit to redeem those who are trapped in sin? If you can’t welcome homosexuals into the church and bring them into transforming encounters with the power of God, that speaks volumes about the absence of the Holy Spirit in you. Why are you more confident of the power of Satan than the massively greater power of God that He has promised to put in every believer? Your doubt about the power of God speaks volumes about why the church is in trouble in many places.
William Noel…
Dr. Paulien certainly did an excellent expose of the ills of many SDAs that failed to see, that within that religious(Women) political(kingdom/beast/Dan.7:23) system of Papal Rome there are a large number of the saints of Jesus, which He is calling to come out of her so that they may not partake of her plagues(Rev. 18:4) and may times by their actions hinder this labor of love…
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Yet he did LEFT BEHIND and did not share the relevance of our PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING ABOUT KEY EVENTS taking place and associated with the recent visit of Papal Rome to our nation and the UN…This he did LEFT BEHIND, and did not addressed them..something that we need to hear, because these events are of great importance in the prophetic message as it concerns us the SDA church and her future welfare..
as such his trumpet sound actually did not sound……
The recent Papal presentation before USA and the United Nations has such a great importance, which in fact represents the “launching” of BABYLON THE GREAT/PAPAL ROME RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD VIA THE UN /which is in fact the 7th healed/Revived head of Rev. 17…AKA in our times the New World Order (a one world government and one world ecumenic religion)…thanks to God this is no longer hidden, is common knowledge..except apparently for many SDAS…
Revelation gazing is exactly the exercise that has turned Adventism into a joke. The real “truth” revealed there is that nobody has clue what it all means or why it was written in the first place. Reading chicken gizzards, tarot cards, flipped sticks, fondling head bumps, are all in the same category of gleaning meaning that fits the readers agenda.
The review of Paulien’s speech is insightful, first showing he is a thoughtful person, second, the legitimate roots of anti-Catholicism in the 19th century. But he is so deep in the forest of Revelational staring, he isn’t in touch with the isolation of Adventism and is content to festoon the interior of the Adventist Soundproof Chamber (ASC) with even more nuanced interpretive verbal abstractions. Justifying Adventist history and theology is the ulterior motive, an obvious fool’s errand, clear to everyone, except the errand boys.
Adventism was born as an error of prophetical interpretation (D & R) and all extensions, defenses, built on it are as flawed as the original premise.
Short of acknowledging the failure of the scheme, there is no redemption for Adventism. Reworking the “prophecies” is meritless in view of the babble of Revelation. Finding “Christ” in the prophecies is revisionism run amuck.
Adventists are not a joke and shouldn’t be treated so by salvagers of its unchangeable bogus history. Admit the joke, promote Christ and Adventism might emerge from ASC to a bright new day.
Our idols may be too strong. We have spent so much time and effort building and polishing them. They give us such welcome certainty in this changing world.
As usual in the modern agenda, everyone knows just exactly how everybody else ought to witness. So this presentation is typical of that reality. Today, we have more “quacks, than ducks” who think they know the bible and how to explain it not only to everyone else, but for everyone else.
The old “cry aloud, spare not” has been replaced with “I’m OK, You’re OK” and “Can’t we all just get along?” But, I am not OK, and neither are you, and “NO” we can’t just get along.”
The bible is very definitive and the SDA message is very definitive. The Pope is the antichrist of the past, present and future. He represents the final evil that wars against God and His kingdom.
And finally, the Catholic religion by definition does not believe in separation of church and state, and is there anti American as well as anti bible. The masses are deluded by “Mr Nice Guy” who will project an image to advance the power and influence of His church. That former SDA’s are easily deluded is expected, but for people like Paulien it is way out of bounds.
But then, like he said, many SDA may well get the mark of the beast before it is all over. Maybe even himself????? Especially if he keeps “dumbing down” the highly intense issues that God gave our pioneers to warn the world of the situation just before Jesus comes back.
In my parents I saw the epitome of the personality divide between proclamational/apocalyptic Adventist gospel and its quieter/relational side.
Mom joined the church as a teenager at evangelistic meetings and throughout her 87 years has more or less been on-fire emotionally, often “losing her cool” when she sees imperfections in her family or in the Church, eager to iron out those problems so we all can go to heaven.
But in my Dad I saw another aspect of ministry, very distinctive in tone.
While Mom was on fire, Dad was a very relational man with a soft, melodious bedside manner in his medical missionary practice. Whereas Mom was respected for her verbal capabilities, Dad was loved for his uncanny healing. They formed a wonderful team that lasted 60 years until his death seven years ago.
Yet there was always between them Mom’s sense that Dad should rise up and condemn verbally more than he did, and Dad’s belief that things would go better if she didn’t tell people off quite so eloquently and wasn’t so critical toward our neighbors, the Catholics.
I have always adopted a style of presentation that is authentic to who I am and how I believe, and I know that we must draw near to the people, as Dad did, but we also must stand up for rightness and truth, when it is challenged.
Proclamation is an art that mixes a complex array of styles and colors, personalizing Christ’s methods to reach the people in a manner that ministers to their needs at that time.
Bill,
“The Pope is the antichrist of the past, present and future.” Do you mean he is an outward representation of the anti-Christ spirit within? If so, when we see that character in ourselves, we too will know if we have the spirit of anti-Christ in us? I thought the Bible was our guide in that area? Don’t forget, there are “many anti-Christs”.
Daniel you quoted Bill’s observation >>>“The Pope is the antichrist of the past, present and future.”
and you then responded >>>Do you mean he is an outward representation of the anti-Christ spirit within? …. Don’t forget, there are “many anti-Christs”.
Just to point out that although there are many antichrists,
as as such a generalized antichristian apostasy…yet the Bible also points out to an specific “Man of Sin” which this apostasy was to crown as their ruler(as such a religious kingdom)….it is this ruler the Man of Sin…the Antichrist of antichrists, which as the leader of this apostasy, although having its own identity yet also represents all other antichristians that are allied or conquered by him…as such=
ONE ANTICHRIST AS KING(PAPAL ROME)…
does not eliminate the others allied “antichrists” as subjects.
This need not be confused, as such the presence of one does not eliminate the other, as such the fact that there is a Roman Pope as The Antichrist, does not eliminate the presence of many antichristian apostates..
“The Antichrist” is also well defined as a religious kingdom ruling from ROME, initially during the Mid Ages/DAN. 7 AND 8,
which although wounded was to revived during the time of the end our times/Papal Rome…as foretold in Daniel and Revelation.
In fact Daniel 8 the only specific prophecy that ties the symbolic prophetic visions to its expression to an specific point in time and time period in the historical timeline
Hi Bru,
You mention the “man of sin” as described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2. This is the same one who is described by Daniel and Jesus as the “abomination which causes desolation”. I continue to notice, among Christians, who say that this “man of sin” always represents one individual, that is, as you have said, the Pope. By this understanding many deny that there are many anti-christ and by this avoid the real issue of their own sin. We all know that the Temple of God are His people, individually, not excluding corporately. Jesus said: you are the Temple of God. ““23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23. If our hearts are the Temple of God in whom Christ dwells, then this is also the temple which is “desolated” by that “man of sin”, the old sinful nature. It is this nature which Jesus, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit, will destroy with the baptism of Fire. We can submit to Christ’s gentle Spirit Who will transform us into His likeness, or stubbornly reject Him which will result in destruction by the unquenchable Fire of God. In God’s Temple Christ must reign, because He is our King and High Priest.
As I keep saying: The wickedness in the world is the outward manifestations of the heart of man. “first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also”. Matt:23:24-26.
Daniel you wrote >>>You mention the “man of sin” as described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2. This is the same one who is described by Daniel and Jesus as the “abomination which causes desolation”. I continue to notice, among Christians, who say that this “man of sin” always represents one individual, that is, as you have said, the Pope.
You like to twist things…keep
By this understanding many deny that there are many anti-christ and by this avoid the real issue of their own sin. We all know that the Temple of God are His people, individually, not excluding corporately. Jesus said: you are the Temple of God. ““23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23. If our hearts are the Temple of God in whom Christ dwells, then this is also the temple which is “desolated” by that “man of sin”, the old sinful nature. It is this nature which Jesus, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit, will destroy with the baptism of Fire. We can submit to Christ’s gentle Spirit Who will transform us into His likeness, or stubbornly reject Him which will result in destruction by the unquenchable Fire of God. In God’s Temple Christ must reign, because He is our King and High Priest.
DAN..
UNFORTUNATELY my response got posted without even me finishing answering your post… here it goes…
the man of sin= is not a single person, is a religious kingdom ruled by a king/Pope…which fits all the description given in 2 Thess 2…as=
1) a falling away(a christian apostasy)took place
2) which crowned a ruling class, Papal Rome
3) whose king was the Pope
As such both the ruling class/hyerachy of Papal Rome and its King/the.Pope representing them, bo are called the
you wrote >>>You mention the “man of sin” as described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2. This is the same one who is described by Daniel and Jesus as the “abomination which causes desolation”. I continue to notice, among Christians, who say that this “man of sin” always represents one individual, that is, as you have said, the Pope.
That is not true, I always said that the Antichrist is Papal Rome, a religious political entity(a religious kingdom) which has a king/Pope as such a whole bunch of people are included in the term Papal Rome as the Antichrist, and even all that ally with her are antichristians and therefore part of her empire =
EMPIRE/KINGDOM = name PAPAL ROME
ITS KING= THE POPE
ITS DOMAIN= THE NATIONS/PEOPLE OF THE WORLD THAT are allied with PAPAL ROME (BY CONCORDATS OR CONQUERED), symbolized in Revelation as the 10horns/10kings of the beast/all antichristians
Truth..the whole beast(or more complex symbol of women.beast) symbolizes the Papal Roman Empire, included are…
Bill,
“Today, we have more “quacks, than ducks” who think they know the bible and how to explain it not only to everyone else, but for everyone else.”
More shepherds than sheep. If you haven’t the title “Doctor” in front of your name, then you have nothing of interest to say, at least, as far as they’re concerned. Just my observation, of some, at this web site.
Somehow I believe Dr. Paulien has studied the subject a lot more than you or any one on this post. I go with him.
Nobody is denying Dr. Paulien expertise. He certainly is an scholar. Personally what I am saying is that he was very right in admonishing us about how to treat the Catholics with love. Yet..I do admit that in his lecture he left behind describing the biblical prophetic significance of key events taking place at that time, such as Papal Rome visit to USA and the UN, there declaring herself leader and launching the One World Order, defined as a one world government and one world ecumenic religion(something which she herself has sponsored), which in Rev. 17:18 is identified as the empire of Babylon the Great, described as an adulterous women(apostate church) and city(KINGDOM/THE BEAST/DAN.7:23), a church.state ruling the kingdoms of the world(10HORNS/10KINGS), in fact that is a religious ecumenic pagan empire, launched at the UN and ground zero(notice the pagan religions there present)
Seems to me that something so important should be addressed by SDA leaders…specially when the Pope in the encyclical he presented to the United Nations, propose a Sunday rest as the solution to this world climate woes to be discussed as part of the UN Agenda 2030, certainly…
an sneaky way to introduce the Sunday Law as part of the solution to curve climate warming, this to be discuss in the next/Dec.2015 or following summit meetings about climate…..
Sunday law pushed not only within the context of climate relief, but also in the agenda for the welfare of the family, children and…
Well, we certainly can’t complain if Mr. Sorensen “gives the trumpet a certain sound.” The question is the sound music or noise.
Just to be clear: The current Pope and the current Roman Catholic Church is certainly not, repeat not, the or a current anti-Christ. (plural). That role has been taken over by many other human institutions.
Daniel I am more bothered by the tone of your response to Ervin then by how he worded his opinion.
Cherry,
I have already replied to you. My reply appears to have been deleted and so I repeat it again: And that is your opinion, also.
Peace.
Well, your observation of the Pope not being the current Antichrist, goes against the Biblical prophetic message, especially Daniel 8 as it expounded in Revelation, and against the SOP which says otherwise..
Friend, the 4th empire of Daniel 7, the one that conquered Greece to assume its title of the next empire in the sequence, which was to last up to around the end of time is still with us…Rome is still here…
Rome is that 4th empire of Daniel 7, and its later religious Papal phase, although suffering a wound was to healed, meaning recover its religious political powers…and it only takes a quick look at the whole world adoring this entity, adoring the Roman Pope(unfortunately even some SDAs)…and bingo!! Prophecy fulfilled…
Perhaps, we need to refine this understanding of the Roman Empire! You are right many human institutions have also become antichristians, that is have become part of the empire of Papal Rome… If not I ask you=
whom is right now adored by the whole world nations and accepted as their leader…?
answer= Papal Rome.
whom declared himself last week as the leader of the New World Order= a one world religion(women) and one world government(The Beast), A RELIGIOUS KINGDOM, ruling with a common agenda not only the kingdoms of the earth at the UN, but also religious leaders as they gathered in ground zero?
answer= Papal Rome
Wow…what is happening with SDAs..?
answer= they have forgotten the warnings of the SOP as rooted in…
Nini,
Keep looking outwardly and you will miss the most important Revelation of your life, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures—“Christ in you”.
Peace.
Why there are people like you that go into tangential issues?
Nobody is denying Christ’s position as the one and only Savior, that was not the issue discussed..that is in fact a given…
The issue discussed was “Who is the Antichrist, the Man of Sin” described in the prophetic message as sitting/ruling/oppressing the temple of God(His church) and calling himself God…
so is there such a system in christianity…which fits the parameters of its description as given in 2 thess 2?
such as=
1) the product of a christian apostasy (I say christian apostasy, simply because Paul only speaks of christian apostasy, that is the only apostasy recognized in the New Testament= which is defined as leaving the truth of the Christian Church(may or may not remain physically in the church) for the deceptive teachings of other religions or overt paganism…
2)apostasy which crowned a king in their midst…as such sitting in the temple of God(His church) as if he were God.
As such an Antichristian religious(dealing with spiritual issues) political(as ruling/kingdom) system…as such defined as a religious kingdom blaspheming against God..
A religious political system ruling and oppressing the church? Yes Papal Rome, which happens to rule from Rome as per Daniel 7-8 (initially during the mid ages as per Dan.8 when using the precedent of the day.year principle and the starting point of the 2300 years timeline as ~500bc)
ruling from Rome during the Mid-Ages=Papal ROME
Bru,
You mentioned the “2300 year timeline” of Daniel 8:14. This “year for a day” principle is totally false as far as the Book of Daniel is concerned. Yes, there is the principle of “year for a day” mentioned in Ezekiel, but that is clearly explained by God as to what is intended. This 2300 “year” timeline has totally distorted the truth as far as individual salvation is concerned.
Take note of Daniel 12:12: “12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.”
And: “3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.” Rev. 1:3.
Blessed is who? He who waits; he who reads. Who is able to wait for “one thousand three hundred and thirty-five [years]? This is a false doctrine. And if any of the “Days” mentioned in the book of Daniel refer to years, then that excludes any involvement on our behalf, that is, humans, individually. But if these prophecies refer to literal days, then there is a message for each of us, individually. I would like to think Christ has something to show me, personally, wouldn’t you?
Peace, my friend.
Interesting.
It’d be great, Mr. Taylor, if you could expand on your posit. I really would like to know which/what are the ‘other many human institutions’ that currently hold the role/title of anti-christ.
Remember, not all of us share your generational cohort, therefore we do not have the same amount of knowledge you must possess, especially the knowledge your higher education has afforded you, (which you’ve worked hard for, I’ve no doubt – this is not a sarcastic/facetious/satirical comment:).
Or maybe you have already written an opinion piece on the subject, and I just arrived late to the conversation? (I’ll check the archives).
If you haven’t done so already, and if you ever feel like gracing us with your knowledge, please expound.
Also, remember to demonstrate Biblically who/what (other than the papacy) is/are the antichrist/s; as protrayed Biblically, (and please, don’t leave out the books of Dan. and Rev).
I’ll ask another favor: try (very hard) to refrain from writting your explanation wrapped around satire, so that those of us who have a hard time picking up that particular literary genre can undertand what you’re explaining.
If you have already expounded on the matter, would you (or anyone else) please be so kind as to tell me in which previous article/opinion piece I can find your answer?
Thanks.
Ervin,
“That role has been taken over by many other human institutions.”
Would that be Science, by any chance? Or Evolution? The world Governments?
And, yes, please reply using words which expound.
Waiting, with anticipation, on your reply.
Dr Paulien, I don’t know. His message appears to be “forget not the prophecies of Revelation, but in reaching others, do not scare them away by firstly shouting about the Ogre of Evil, the past history of the papacy was, because a sad tale is, interest in history is passé by the masses, here and now is the current craze. His statement of not looking to the future, but recognize the times in which we live, is valuable, because “the future is now”. We are in the last days of Earth time and should prepare all to meet the CHRIST. Our enemy is found in the current “WORLD ELITE”, who have in their possession the total global assets, and with their soon to be announced “ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT ORDER”, through the United Nations, the global masses will be told their future living conditions, lifestyles, cans, can not’s, where to live, where to work, don’t ask questions of where is our neighbor who just disappeared?
Folks, please open your eyes to the freedoms that have disappeared in the past 10 years, more so in Europe than the USA, but also rapidly being removed from our memory from the past. Be strongly aware of the global happenings of the next 12 months. O’, by the way, take your money out of the banks before it’s confiscated.
You as Dr. Paulien did, are talking of the NOW…
YET what is the NOW…??
People, the Pope declared himself the leader of the New World Order launched by the UN Agenda of 2030(WHICH IS ITS “CONSTITUTION”)…the whole world understand this,….even the Times magazine recognized Papal Rome as the return of the Roman Empire as such put it in their front page, …
and …Is it understood as such by SDAs, as it should..??
THIS IS THE NOW….FOR THOSE INTERESTED=
THE NEW WORLD ORDER, A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT AND A ONE WORLD ECUMENIC RELIGION WAS LAUNCHED LAST WEEK. THE POPE DECLARED HIMSELF AS LEADER OF THIS RELIGIOUS EMPIRE…
THE POPE GAVE RECOMMENDATIONS BEFORE HAND WITH THE ENCYCLICAL WHICH ADDRESSES ISSUES THE UN AGENDA 2030 IS TO CONSIDER (which includes Sunday THE FALSE SABBATH as a worldwide day of rest, SUNDAY LAW, in order to decrease worldwide emissions of carbon as the suppose cause of global climate warming).
next in the agenda..very near future= CLIMATE SUMMIT, PARIS 2015, during which all those points recommended for halting climate warming are going to be consider, and signed…then to be taken to the respective nations for implementation…
Is Sunday law to be delivered there, if not in this one, in the ones to follow…stay tuned..The AGENDA IS THERE…
Nini,
Those who desire to have peace and quiet during the Sabbath, to spend quiet time in meditation with their God, are already suffering because of those who reject that Day of Rest. They suffer at the hands of wicked people who continue with their worldly businesses and those making noise of all sorts. Noise is one of the most intrusive forms of abuse that anyone could inflict on others, without even laying a finger on them. In this way the wicked who hate the righteous are tormenting and oppressing God’s people. Some don’t even know they are doing this and the real reason they are doing it. But that does not make them guiltless, because they are fulfilling the desires of their father the devil.
If you think this is all in my imagination, then take note of this:
“12 Who said, (the wicked) “Let us take for ourselves the pastures of God for a possession.” Ps.83:12.
“13 So we, Your people and sheep of Your pasture, will give You thanks forever; We will show forth Your praise to all generations.” Ps.79:13
“23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23.
How can the people of God hear, through the Spirit, what He desires to reveal to them, when the world is flooding them with noise?
Sunday Laws? The world is already oppressing God’s people by rejecting the real purpose of God’s Sabbath.
Have pity on the poor, persecuted Adventists. Who would be interested in joining such a people with persecution complex.
To imply that noise on Saturday is persecuting Sabbath keepers, how is that any different than any day of the week if you are either in church or in your home doing your own thing? You have no idea what real persecution is like, but you might check the Christians of Syria and Egypt and other nations that are REALLY persecuted. How do you expect to stand real persecution if noise is considered equally?
Elaine,
SDA’s are not the only people who keep the Sabbath. In fact, I doubt they even know what it really means to keep the Sabbath; it’s nothing more than a social gathering, for some!
As far as persecutions are concerned: Do you know what that even means; because only True Christians experience that? The devil is not interested in his own. And, no, noise is not the only form of persecution!
DAN …addressing two of your posts…
You wrote that >>>This “year for a day” principle is totally false as far as the Book of Daniel is concerned….
Sorry to tell you that you are wrong…here is why…
the question answered by 2300em/p.days was how long was the vision (which includes all the elements in the vision, the medopersian ram, Greek goat and unknown little horn).
Dan 8:13 “.. How long shall be the vision concerning…”
As such you have a prophetic timeline of 2300em/days which has to be a symbolic of 2300 years in order to fit the empires of MedoPersia and Greece, and unknown little horn that inhabits such timeline…
History tells us that MedoPersia and then Greece together, lasted ~500 years, which means the other ~1800 years are occupied by the Roman Empire during its two phases, an initial conquering phase of the Caesars and a later religious phase Papal Rome… which then brings us to ~1800d as the end of supremacy of Papal Rome and a few years to the end of the timeline in 1844ad, as the start of the judgment of Papal Rome..
~1800ad
goat/Greece->l.horn/RomeI.Papal–>~1800ad
~1800ad
~1800ad
THE TIMELINE AS 2300 YEARS, INHABIT BY EMPIRES(TWO OF THEM IDENTIFIED BY THEIR NAME IN THE PROPHECY ITSELF) IDENTIFIES PAPAL ROME AS THE LITTLE HORN, AKA
THE ANTICHRIST, IN POWER…
WOW…HERE AGAIN…THE TIMELINES ARE ERASED…
SIMPLY PUT…THE 2300EM. HAS TO REPRESENT 2300 YEARS, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS INHABITED BY EMPIRES TWO OF THEM IDENTIFIED BY NAME AS MEDOPERSIAN/RAM,AND GREECE/GOAT, THE NEXT IS PRESENTED AS AN UNKNOWN LITTLE HORN WHICH IS IDENTIFIED BY HISTORY AS THE ROMAN EMPIRE, in the same timeline extending its power all the way into the mid ages, as such as Papal Rome..wounded thereafter (Revelation describes its short revival by the later time of the end, to be rewounded once again thereafter..dies).
~500bc————–2,300 years————–>~1800ad
ram/M.Persia->goat/Greece->l.horn/RomeI.Papal>~1800ad
———————————–(mid.ages)>~1800ad
~1800ad
notice= the starting point of the 2300 years timeline, is the times of MedoPersia ~500bc, as the first element in the series of empires…this shows
+
THE ANTICHRIST/LITTLE.HORN= AS RULING FROM ROME DURING THE MID AGES…AS SUCH PAPAL ROME
You are right, the future is now…this is the end-time…
And although I do agree with your evaluation of what it is happening right now, which is the establishment of a one world government…which is in others words a one world empire….
and although the elite are tops in this institution…
let us not forget that the Bible does describe this time of the end entity( which means in action during our times)and describes as specific power and its characteristics at center stage, in fact this empire hasthe ruler of all rulers, in fact a king of earthly kings, as such an earthly emperor which is the power in charge of the nations of the world…
What I am saying that the “elite” although part of this system is not the king of these eartly king..there is somebody else, an overlord identified in the prophetic message that we should not ignored, describe as =
Rev 17:18 And the (ADULTEROUS/APOSTATE) woman(CHURCH/EZE.16) which thou sawest is that great city(KINGDOM/BEAST/DAN.7:23), which reigneth over the kings of the earth(10HORNS/10KINGS).
THE BIBLE IDENTIFIES WHO IS THE RULER OF ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD(of the UN) DURING THE end-time(as the ANGEL OF ONE OF THE PLAGUES describes/REV. 17:1) there was to be THIS RULER OF THE “ELITE/KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD AND ALL OTHERS” described as BEING both “a women”(church)and a “city.state”(Beast/ Dan.7:23)= A CHURCH.STATE(women.beast) ruling the kingdoms of the world(ruling the elite)…= Papal Rome
Adventists were not outliers about the papacy being the antichrist
Where we have become very wrong is getting so focused on prophecy that we see nothing else but the prophecy instead of letting it give us urgency to spread the Gospel, which is NOT “the pope is the anti-christ” but “Jesus saves.”
My point was historical. Among protestants in the 18th century, to the extent they concerned themselves with eschatology, the belief that the papacy was the Anti-Christ was common. Paulien stated this was in contrast to prevailing opinion at the time our church was being founded and he is mistaken. We had our strange doctrines, but our Anti-Catholic Weltanschauung fit right into the mainstream.
This is very much the problem today with our church and its message. So many members and ministries are focused almost soley upon the movements of the Pope and the suppossed secret Sunday laws to be soon signed into law that most are tuning out, even within our church. Every Pope and every Papal visit to the US sounds the alarms of immediate new world order, Sunday laws are hear, prepart ot head for the hills. I heard others share that the Pope in Congress was going to urge the passage of the Family Day (Sunday Law) and so on and so forth. Well, once again the shrill of those misguided notions has not come to pass and that view of “crying wolf” has only been strengthened among us and among those who might still be looking in from the outside. It is a real pity.
I’ve written in other posts about the respect we need to give to persons of all faiths including our Catholic friends. I’ve also admired the messages of love and compassion coming from Pope Francis in this U.S visit. I say all that to underline the fact that as an avid student of history I have not forgotten what I read in Great Controversy and Fox’s Book of Martyrs. In this October season when people think of witches there are enough stories and examples of how the church used the idea of witchcraft to manipulate communities and instill fear in so many.
This travesty gets its own entry for several reasons. The so-called “witches” were rounded up and slaughtered for centuries throughout Europe. Casualty numbers vary drastically because records were not well kept, but the average total is anywhere from 40,000 to 100,000 dead, just in the period of c. 1480 to c. 1750.
The hunts had been perpetrated for centuries before, and they were carried out for one or both of two reasons: fear and personal animosity. If a particular person irritated someone, the latter could accuse the former of witchcraft, and the Catholic Church showed up like a bloodhound. Or a nation or local government could suddenly become afraid of the influence of the Antichrist and take care of the matter with the Church’s blessing.
Let’s not forget factual historical context to the history of the Catholic Church.
Part Two..
It was established doctrine that witches were not witches by their own volition, but by Satan’s, and so burning them at the stake would purify them by pain so they could enter Heaven. The Church actually believed, and led the populace to believe, that it was doing witches a favor by torturing them and burning them to death.
The methods by which to prove a witch were ludicrous, to state the obvious: a mole or birthmark was deemed proof of trafficking with the Devil; uttering blasphemy (and back then it was nearly impossible to open your mouth without offending the Church); denouncement by another witch (and since denouncing another passed the blame, the accused could save himself this way); to be afraid during interrogation; and the most infamous of all, anyone who could swim was most assuredly a witch, since only the Devil could teach someone to conquer water.
Tortures were not always overseen by the Church itself, and thus, the rule of not shedding blood was ignored in these instances. So the tortures became much, much worse: flogging, skinning alive, castration by red-hot pincers, disemboweling, drawing and quartering, head crushing, tooth extraction, de-nailing. Death, if not by torture, was always via burning at the stake.
Historical contexts should not be forgotten as we look at the totality of what the Catholic church and some of it’s followers have done in the past.
We need to love, respect, and understand, our Catholic friends.
“We need to love, respect, and understand, our Catholic friends.”
This is exactly right. We need to understand they have been deluded by a false church and show why this is so by the bible. And we need to show the whole world this same reality. More and more people are beginning to understand the Muslim religion is not just anti Christian and anti American but has a close affinity to the Catholic church as well.
People have tried to defend what they would call moderate Muslims as opposed to radical Muslims. But the fact is, some are now seeing that the “radical” Muslims are the only real and true Muslims.
The same applies to the Catholic church. American Catholics are not in many ways true Roman Catholics. And the Catholic church knows this. American Catholics are the “Judas” element in the church as stated by Malachi Martin (Jesuit) in his book “Keys of this Blood.” American freedom has “tainted” their thinking and they are not so clearly bound by the true Catholic confession of faith either about the Pope, or the church. But true radical Catholicism is the one and only viable Catholicism.
Just so, only historic bible Adventism is the one and only true Adventism. It allows for no modification of any liberal agenda to redefine the message and mission. EGW has defined it. It is not subject to re-interpretation or change. Thus, you either accept it, or, you don’t. The same applies to Muslims and Catholics.
Bill,
You wrote: ““We need to love, respect, and understand, our Catholic friends.”
This is exactly right. We need to understand they have been deluded by a false church and show why this is so by the bible.”
It appears to me that there are many false doctrines within the SDA church as well. People are being deluded in every way possible. No denomination is exempt in that war.
“We need to understand that we have been deluded by a false church and show why this is so by the bible.” That’s not a very nice thing to say about the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They are some of the nicest people I know–except for my Catholic friends, of course.
Ervin,
Your reply should be to Bill, not me, I was quoting him.
Ervin,
In additions: You injected “we” in that quote when it read “they”. Be honest.
Hi Daniel,
What Mr. Taylor meant, (I am open to correction), is that he believes Seventh-day Adventists, too, ‘have been deluded by a false church” and they (SDAs) need to also be shown “why is this so by the Bible”.
He purposefully refrased your statement and quoted it to say what he meant.
Mr. Taylor is in agreement with your statement. (Once again, I am open to correction).
Hi Orion,
It wasn’t my statement, it was Bill’s. And, no, I don’t believe he was agreeing with me. If he was, he would have told me himself. Besides, one doesn’t change another’s words when quoting. The whole purpose of quoting is to repeat what someone else has said or wrote. On the other hand, there is plagiarism, modifications of the original text to suit themselves is their whole purpose. But, if I am wrong about Doctor Taylor, them he is free to correct me.
Peace.
Adventist prophecies are false demonstrated by the fact there is no Sunday law, no Catholic persecution of Adventists, and most telling of all, Jesus hasn’t returned. Another sign is that [some] are so sure of yourself as the repository of ultimate Truth, an additional indication of self-deception.
At least the Catholic church has a two thousand year history of developing doctrines many of which are central to most Christian faiths. [Some who] have lived a few short years, but … are blessed above it and all others, in your own mind, with inside knowledge that raises you to unmatched knowledge above those Catholics and stupid liberals. … , it’s an ego trip. That’s all it is.
…. at least cut a little slack for those who see things differently. Hell isn’t their destination any more or less than it is yours. In my view you are fine in your faith …. and methinks you give Superguy a good laugh (that’s what thunder is) every time you spout off!
Bugs,
Haven’t we demonstrated to you that some predictions (in The Great Controversy for example) have in fact occurred? Do we have to go around this barn again?
The trauma you had experienced at some point in your Adventist youth—trauma to which you have since grudgingly admitted—was apparent to me from the outset about.
Why don’t you admit that your familial association with Catholicism and your attendance at RC services, along with the animosity that your trauma has produced toward most things Adventist, have combined to give you a denial bias toward things that are happening before your very eyes? Things that you were told in your traumatic youthful Adventist experience would happen? This is no coincidence.
That said it seems Brother Bill Sorensen’s approach is frequently intentionally traumatizing. :–(
Correction: …was apparent to me from the outset.
You wrote: “Just so, only historic bible Adventism is the one and only true Adventism.”
The only problem with that view is defining “historic Bible Adventism” because there are so many different conflicting and even mutually exclusive views of what that is. Keep chasing mirages and maybe one day you’ll catch one.
I THANK THE WORLD FOR YOU…
I WAS THINKING MOST OF THE SDA CHURCH HAD GONE BLIND…
BLESSED BE THE LORD FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU…STANDARD BEARERS
KEEP YOUR WORK,…LIKE YOU ARE FEW THAT REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD AND THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY…
I WANT TO TELL YOU ALL YOU THAT HAVE LEFT BEHIND THE PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING GIVEN BY THE SOP AS A GIFT TO US FROM GOD, THE WRITINGS OF EGW IS THE BIBLICAL TRUTH…
AND TO THE OTHERS, THAT PUT ASIDE EGW AND HER CLEAR TEACHINGS, FOR EXAMPLE CHAPTER 25 OF THE GREAT CONTROVERSY…
THINK AGAIN…AND TRY TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU WENT WRONG…
THIS ARE THE LAST DAYS…
THE EMPIRE OF BABYLON THE GREAT, AT A WORLDWIDE LEVEL, WAS LAUNCHED LAST WEEK…AND MANY SUPPOSED TO BE THE SOLDIERS AT THE WATCHTOWER ARE SLEEPING..AWAKE AND SOUND THE ALARM AS MR. SORENSSEN IS DOING!!!
Nini,
You wrote:
“I WANT TO TELL YOU ALL YOU THAT HAVE LEFT BEHIND THE PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING GIVEN BY THE SOP AS A GIFT TO US FROM GOD, THE WRITINGS OF EGW IS THE BIBLICAL TRUTH…”
And,
“AND TO THE OTHERS, THAT PUT ASIDE EGW AND HER CLEAR TEACHINGS, FOR EXAMPLE CHAPTER 25 OF THE GREAT CONTROVERSY…
THINK AGAIN…AND TRY TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU WENT WRONG…
THIS ARE THE LAST DAYS…”
Everyone who has taken up her writings have rejected the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.
Prove me wrong, and I’ll never say a word against her again!
Sam Gell,
Your tales of the tortures inflicted on “witches ” is gruesome, grisly, ghastly and grimly true.
I once on a cruise, stopped at a small port on the Brazilian coast.
The only item of interest in the town, was a museum displaying instruments of torture from the Spanish Inquisition. Foolishly I paid the admission price, but I could not stomach the horror and exited in three minutes!
EGW did not write about the Inquisition in her Great Controversy saga.
Could it have been that had she witnessed the awful atrocities in vivid TECHNICOLOR, heard the shrieks in DOLBY stereophonic sound, and experienced with IMAX screen intensity every harrowing horror, she would have known INTUITIVELY, that the “universe” had no further need of PERSUASION as to Satan’s evil.
She would have seen the controversy as being already completed!
Did witches in those days have guardian angels? Did Angels suffer post traumatic stress disorder when processing their protégés pain?
Why were those angels not CLAMORING to God, that they LONG AGO, had indicted Satan, and vidicated God?
EGW’S Great Controversy offers NO intelligible answers to these incisive inquiries. Nor does it explain the total lack of compassion of the”universe” for mankind’s misery.
That mankind is still expected to endure a future “time of trouble such as never was”, depicts a sadistic God sated with atrocities, tortures, and horrors, which he could have terminated LONG AGO.
If only God, Superguy, would have practice birth control pre-conception of Adam and Eve, wouldn’t the horrors of history been eliminate?
Rothenberg Germany has a museum filled with torture instruments used during the Inquisition. There was the “iron maiden” which gradually squeezed the life from victims; the “stretch machine” that pulled your arms and legs until they came off. More that was very grisly and knowing they were built for only one purpose: to kill slowly by horrible torture.
Seem to me that you are judging God outside the true context of his time tables as it relate to eternity.
For God in order to be fair needed to give Satan a reasonable amount of time in which demonstrate to the universe in general what sin is all about and its consequences. You are suggesting God has given Satan too much time for his evil and cruelty to be shown…but you are not taking in consideration the factor of eternity for those that follow the opposite road he took…
6000 years of evil in this world does not compare with the eternity for those that accept the blood of Christ..When 6000 years is compared with eternity…then the true temporal concept comes to view, than in reality Satan does not have much time to show his true colors…
also, why would God allow 7000 years to this world(including the desolated last millennium, 7th Millennial Sabbath). For one God has determined that no all man but also earth will keep His Sabbath…simply because it is His law. Some may question the previous statement, but I do not ….I accepted as true..
This in turn, requires 7000 years time period (700 or 70 is too short)…as such during the 7th Millennial Sabbath, the saints in heaven keep the Sabbath, the dead in their graves keep the 7th day Sabbath(like Jesus did that Sabbath of his death) and this earth being desolated will keep its Sabbath just like it did as “type” during the times of the Babylonian desolation…
Did you consider what our world would be like if left to Satan? This would be going on constantly instead of periodically and no escape in death. We are fortunate in that death is an escape for these suffering people–and then the resurrection.
All pain and suffering will be erased from their minds. This is the first death for which Jesus suffered and more because the sins were placed on Him.
Wow! This sounds like it was a most relevant and informative presentation by Dr. Paulien that focused on what is literally the issue of our time.
The historic Adventist interpretation of Revelation 13 and the ability and willingness to present that interpretation in a loving, balanced, and inclusive manner in what was predicted to be, will be, and is proving to be a hostile cultural environment is the challenge to which Seventh-day Adventists have been called for such a time as this.
Clearly, now is the time for all good men/women…
I listened to Dr. Paulien’S “non-controversial” speech, and did have some relevant statements..in general those of love and respect for those in the catholic faith..very true indeed..
But of further interest is what he “left behind” and did not addressed which are =
a)issues as the prophetic meaning of a Pope addressing for the first time the USA Congress (not mentioned). Not even properly answering the question of the Constitutional lawyer there present, who wanted to know about the “constitutional” implications of such a leader(THE POPE) addressing the United State at the congressional level, and the “constitutional” implications of the actions he recommended the congress to follow. In other words what is happening to USA national sovereignty and its “Constitution” when a foreign leader comes here to giver orders?
b) or the prophetic meaning of the Roman Pope launching the New World Order, himself declaring leader of this one world government and one world empire..
c) of the prophetic meaning of Papal Rome uniting with leaders of the world religions at ground zero, within the umbrella of the “One World Religion”, that the Pope himself sponsors.
THOSE ARE RELEVANT ISSUES….ABSENT TOTALLY IN DR. PAULIEN’s SPEECH…
ONE THING I DO GIVE HIM KUDOS..AND IT IS BECAUSE HE ADMITTED THAT THE CONVENTIONAL SDA UNDERSTANDING OF REVELATION 13 IS CORRECT.. (yet, he introduced the wrong idea that these prophecies were conditional..to which I say: NO…
I didn’t hear anything about a “new world order” in the Pope’s speech. Are we bringing our imaginations and assumptions to what was said? It seems so.
Like the Jews of old, we have in our minds how the end-times should be–the coming of the Messiah. But they were wrong about the first time, and I think we will be wrong about our interpretation of the second coming. The dividing line may not be so much our theology, but our attitude and focus on Jesus.
EM,
You wrote: “Are we bringing our imaginations and assumptions to what was said?” And: “Like the Jews of old, we have in our minds how the end-times should be–the coming of the Messiah.”
I agree with you. Those statements describe exactly, how people have preconceived ideas on many spiritual issues.
Firstly, this “new world order” is in fact very real, in the minds of those who view Bible Prophecy outwardly and not inwardly, that is, looking unto themselves, focusing on the inner working of Christ, Who transforms our minds and is reconciling us to God His Father; not excluding being witnesses for Jesus to others. While these people concentrate on worldly affairs and connecting them with Bible Prophecy, they are swept away by their anxieties, which they then want others to affirm as the imminent return of Christ. But is this frenzied mentality all wrong? I believe not. It may well be a wake-up call for those who are ignorant of the Bible and their own spirituality. As a matter of fact, many years ago I read an article in a religious magazine stating “Christ has appeared in the middle east”. This, I immediately understood, to be the “anti-christ”, so to speak. Not long afterwards I began to search the Scriptures, desiring to know God, because I knew I was not ready for Jesus’ return. It was the beginning of my journey toward God.
Continued.
For those who are expecting a physical/bodily appearing of the “messiah” will be deceived. Jesus is not returning as the “messiah” again, but as the Judge of all the living and the dead. His second coming is for Salvation (Heb. 9:27, 28) for those who have received Him—their Lord and Savior, King of kings and LORD of lords.
The “end-time” state of this world/earth is also misunderstood by many. Many imagine total annihilation, by human hands, which will leave the earth a desolate barren landscape. That is not what the Bible tells us. “38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Matt. 24:37-39. This does not describe a desolate earth, but one where people will continue to live as though nothing is preventing them from looking forward to a bright future, otherwise why would they feel confident in marrying and raising children?
And: “10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” 2 Pet. 3:10-13; See also Rev. 20:11-14.
Just some matters to consider.
You did not hear anything in his speech about the New World Order? perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the term? I means globalization, all the nations coming together, leaving behind their national sovereignty to accepted the Agenda 2030, in fact becoming one world common government. Added to it is its ECUMENIC religious component, well exemplified in ground zero, all churches and nations under Papal Rome as their leader(in that meeting at the UN he declared himself their leader)…eventually dictator..
You do not understand the mechanics of what happened at USA, UN and ground zero, because you are not aware that the UN is an organism created or sponsored by Jesuits which purpose has always been to bring all back to Rome.>>
and bingo…so they did last week…all the nations sign alliances with this Papal power…
If we come to the knowledge, and for that I suggest you go deep into the hidden origins of the United Nations(Dr. Veith has excellent well research and documented studies on his site, about this fact) then you can understand why of all world leaders was the Pope the one chosen to go to the UN last month to launch the global agenda(The New World Order, is simply a one world government and one world religion, these terms are used by the elite and Pope himself many times, and actually were used in these meetings…all in all representing the launching of Babylon the Great ruling the kingdoms of the world(the Pope the leader and the UN/kingdoms)
There’s a huge infinite chasm between propositions and reality. Endless straw men are effortlessly formed on the proposition side. So it is with any mumbo that emits from any UN “conspirators.” They appeal to dedicated seekers of bogey men behind every shadow. Adventists have a particular knack for finding lurkers in shady places. The cause for it is the failed Adventist end time scenario for which die-hard theologicrats grieve dripping with crocodile tears. It’s the hope for a resurrection of a deceased expectation of being persecuted as initiator of the Second Advent.
I just scanned (careful perusing would induce suicide by ennui) the Agenda 2030 and it must have been written by Alice while she was in the drug infused rabbit hole of Wonderland. It would negate the need for heaven, establish an earthly paradise, and arrive at its goals with nothing but the power of wishful thinking. Utopian proposals are as vacuous as the pointy heads who devise them. The steps from dream to realization require an infinite number of allies and perfectly aligned stars, in other words, the enigma of an already perfect world.
Rest easy, watch wherever you go today for examples of love in your life and in the eyes and actions of people, you’ll see God in action. Let chirp chirp be your mantra! Remember, Jesus said the birds don’t worry. We shouldn’t either.
Larry,
“It would negate the need for heaven, establish an earthly paradise, and arrive at its goals with nothing but the power of wishful thinking. Utopian proposals are as vacuous as the pointy heads who devise them.”
I hear you clearly, now. Where have you been all this time?
Peace.
The “need for heaven” is nothing more than an escapist dream regardless of which universe it is concocted, Daniel. The Utopians are just as religious as you in their dreams. Your version of heaven has an imaginary construct somewhere out there by an imaginary “Constructor” based on “belief.” Theirs’s fits into the present world. You both share the same template, an Idealized earth minus the pain.
The dream is hundreds of thousands of years old (or seven thousand if that’s your perspective). It’s the opiate that compensates for our dilemma of existing on a rock not made for us and the threats and the pain and the chaos of our conditions and personalities. There’s not one shred of evidence your “heaven” is any closer than there’s to being realized. Belief changes nothing. We die, you and me and when we do our idealized dreams of escape die in reality as we escape into the elements as have billions of those before us.
Since anything is possible, I’m not ruling out something after death. It’s not imaginable, not likely, can’t be determined outside of pipe dreams. It could turn out not to be so good, a worse scenario than here and now so the sleep of death might not be so bad.
Heaven and hope are functioning synonymous terms. Religion is at its best when marketing this dream. Even as a placebo it is permissible and good as medicine for the soul. Transferring happily into that dark night is OK.
Larry,
My version of Heaven, is not as you, or others imagine.
Secondly, who was talking about heaven?
I have noticed your comments lately resembled reason, in some shape or form, but now, off you go on that journey of riddles and enigmas. Do you ever see the truth in anything? Or am I missing something?
I said: Peace. Not: lets wrestle.
My bad, Daniel. I misunderstood, I guess, your comment ” Where have you been all this time?” It seemed like a challenge.
So I’m not adverse to wrestling, but do also enjoy the “Peace” gesture. I see truth in the observation and experience of love. I believe that is where humans entangle with “God.”
My pointing to enigmas and riddles hopefully is a function of reason. I allow for faith and belief to employ enigmas and riddles as devices of hope. I don’t allow for that realm to be identified as reality or Truth.
So, Peace!
Larry,
Let me be “lured into your web” once again. You wrote:
“Your version of heaven has an imaginary construct somewhere out there by an imaginary “Constructor” based on “belief.” Theirs’s fits into the present world. You both share the same template, an Idealized earth minus the pain.”
So what “version of heaven” is mine? And when did I ever refer to heaven as “somewhere out there”? You must be mistaking me for someone else. Or, is that in your “imagination”, as to what I was supposed to have said, or thought?
And by what imagination of your own heart caused you to think I “idealized earth minus the pain”?
As for love, love, love, that’s all it is, words floating in the sky, or, should I say, in your mind?
Prove it!
My bad, again, Dan! Was obviously wrong when I assigned to you what appears to be the general Adventist version of heaven along with its presuppositions. I was rebutting it and the brave new Utopian world.
I have never seen one word of your conception of “heaven.” So the template I placed over you was based on not even one fact. I understand your irritation at my reckless presumption. Would you agree that my heaven premise fits most Adventists? It fit the ones I grew up with and later ministered to. And it reflects the EGW version.
I don’t buy the vogue economic version of Christianity. It’s a bartering system with presuppositions of profit and loss, good and bad product and a demanding CEO left over from the OT. As a boat it is plastered with layers of dogma barnacles to the sinking point slapped on its hull by centuries of “theological experts.”
What is unique about us? We are made from the common elements on loan from recycling universe. Thinking and feeling is our singular contribution. Thoughts have no proving ground for verification. Opinion rules. One is as good as another in the broad scheme of things. Nothing changes our outcome, we die. Our cherished thoughts affect nothing and perish too.
What does verifiably affect the living of our lives is the experience of “love, love, love.” Without it we are nodes of temporary, valueless protoplasm. Christ revealed our value and it is entwined with love, the source of which isn’t Jehovah.
Larry,
You wrote: “Thinking and feeling is our singular contribution. Thoughts have no proving ground for verification. Opinion rules. One is as good as another in the broad scheme of things. Nothing changes our outcome, we die. Our cherished thoughts affect nothing and perish too.”
And: “Christ revealed our value and it is entwined with love, the source of which isn’t Jehovah.”
Do you want my opinion? Here it is: Your statements are total contradictions. Why do I say this? Your first statement, above, declares we are of absolutely no value or purpose at all. Your second statement, contradicts your first.
Secondly, Jesus Christ is “YHWH”, or as you put it, “Jehovah”. What people don’t realize is this: How long do you think God’s longsuffering and patience will last, for eternity? That is exactly what the devil wants, and so do the wicked people. But there is an end. Not only that, how many people like to tie God’s hands up, with this statement: God is Love? In other words: God, you can’t condemn people to suffering and death, because you are Love. No, God does not do that, people do! Take your pick: Let the Sun shine, giving you light, warmth and energy; or, let it burn you to a crisp! Therefore, treat God with the Respect He deserves. Besides, how long should the evil wicked triumph?
So, God is Love, yes. People are not!
And, yes, I do agree with your “heaven premise fits most Adventists?”
Finally, I accept your apology. Peace, my friend.
Something so sophisticated about having a RC friend? I had a RC “friend”. He was a priest. Came by my house once and laid down on my bed, hoping I would perform an obscene act upon him. Another “priestly” acquaintance I met around Cedars Sinai Medical Center.
Tall,large boned guy,looked like a football player, had a nicely trimmed beard. Had been sent there by the L.A diocese after some issues with child molestation at his previous post.
He drew no salary from CSMC for serving as a chaplain but was placed there, more or less, as a PR move by the church. Good for their image to have a ruggedly handsome, masculine priest serving in a Jewish hospital. Kind of blew up when he was indicted and sent to prison for child molestation at his previous post.
CSMC wasn’t too happy about the situation, since they had a pediatric ward and he was specifically supposed to avoid contact with children as part of the “discipline” administered by the church.
Yes, I get it. SDA having RC friends evinces a bit of cachet, eh? So cooool, so hip, so avant garde!
Come on Hanson! What are you trying to say? We all know the stereotype of priests, but that is not all of them–not 50% or 20%. We may have fewer, but have no right to point fingers.
I have Catholic friends and some are nuns, because I choose them to be and to get out of my religious box. I find most are caring, loving servants.
Birds of a Feather
Catholicism and Adventism share the same negation of Christ’s teachings. Why? Because that’s what institutions do. They can’t help themselves. Codifying their raison D’ etre requires a massive structure of doctrines that have nothing to do with Christ’s teachings. Catholics venerate Mary, Adventists venerate Ellen (a Prophet). Catholics claim the magic of transubstantiation, Adventists the magic of the “prophecies.”
These several samples are symbolic of the type of massive theological structures religious institutions construct as evidence of their viability. Energies are consumed with manufactured apologies. The end result is multiple books, theologies, doctrines, all of which claim a source in Christ, but are nothing more than lip service, a ruse, for the purpose of institutional self-aggrandizement.
Christs teachings are very simple. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love each other as I have loved you. To adhere to his basic principles is so simple there would be no purpose of church institutions, except possibly for social reasons. Churches would have no device for claiming superiority or correctness. His teachings don’t need a “church.” He never promoted such a thing, had no codification interests, didn’t advance a “systematic” theology.
In two thousand years Christianity has morphed into a Babylon of egoistic babble, a fortress for theologicrats, a nightmare for seekers of wisdom. No wonder church rolls are diminishing.
I regret to have to slightly disagree with Bugs/Larry Boshell when he writes “In two thousand years Christianity has morphed into a Babylon of egoistic babble, a fortress for theologicrats, a nightmare for seekers of wisdom.”
Bugs makes three assertions about Christianity.
First, as for Christianity morphing into a “Babylon of egoistic babble,” If by “Babylon” he means “confusion,” then 16th Century Catholic commentators did accurately predict exactly would happen if Protestantism gained a foothold in Europe—It would cause a continual proliferation of separate and independent church bodies. That is one prophecy that has come to pass. By last count, there were more than 400 separate Christian Protestant groupings of various sizes and that does not count the independent store front versions.
Now, of course, 16th Century Protestant commentators called the Catholic Church “Babylon,” by which they meant that, in their opinion, it had strayed from New Testament Christianity. And Catholic apologists answered back with various accusations, to which the Protestants answered with other pejorative terms, and back and forth.
And then we have the “egoistic babble” problem. That will take more space than is avaiaible here to unpack. Perhaps, it would be helpful to point out that any faith community that has existed for more than one of two generations seems to have to generate a whole lot of theological “babble.” Why that seems to be true, might be the topic of a future…
Ervin,
Both your statement and Larry’s seeks to bring shame on Christ. Why do I say this? Babylon is within the human heart and does not represent Christ or His teachings, way of Life, nor the Truth.
Christianity represents all those who believe and follow Christ. Not those who oppose Him through false doctrines and evil imaginations.
Would you agree?
Is there any Christian church that has never taught false doctrines?
Elaine,
Excellent question.
Everyone who does not speak by the Holy Spirit, in regards to Spiritual matters, will be found to be a liar. That includes me.
Erv, Tower of Babel might have been a better choice of words. I had two points in mind when I referred to Babylon as confusion. It has to do with the complication of Christ’s teaching at its get-go by the church of “Peter” (and its precursors) as the self-proclaimed definer and guardian, and second, complicated by non-Catholic multiple voices throughout history amplifying Christs teachings into forms removed from their essence.
The Protestant development, I maintain isn’t the cause, but the symptom of the diversionary noise. It started sometime after the “resurrection” when a creative interpretation developed from despair because of a new world of possibilities. Pre-resurrection enlightenment is what Jesus taught. Post resurrection is what It was said he taught. It is the heart of my thesis that institutions, by their very nature, modify a script to meet its needs and then proclaim themselves as the definer and protector without embarrassment normally due to autocratic corrupters. They assumes and wield definition and enforcement powers by the myth of a “consensus.”
I grant that what Jesus actually taught is dependent on retro recollections of early writers (Mark, et.al) and other sources of unknown dependability and accuracy. Overall it appears his activities were on two levels, one as an activist for the restoration of Israel, and the other to be an example of a non-Jehovah god that was, instead, a dispenser of love and kindness.
Continued:
His historical followers determined there was more than a simple message and living example. So they developed an increasingly complicated, codified version of it, a process still alive today. The end result is an enforced collection of opinions defined as multiple version of his teachings as “truth.”
As to “egoistic babel,” I refer to the fact that religious discourse is opinion. When opinions are defined heartily as factual, I maintain the ego of the expresser is injected and so that the premise is shadowed by defensiveness and the need to be “right.” Christianity over the century, in whatever versions, has adopted the collective ego authority to solidify opinion babble into dogma. It isn’t a once for all proposition it turns out. An unintended consequence is seen in the necessity to thaw frozen “truth” doctrines and reformulate them to meet new needs. “Present Truth” is the process of making stuff up as needed, a part of the process of negating or destroying simplicity.
As to the proclivity of groups to form internal languages after a period of time, it seems to me the why and how is pretty obvious. Examples could fill an entire discussion. But, I may be too dismissive and there may be more to Erv’s proposal than I see.
My “nightmare for seekers of wisdom” continues. Leaving Christianity and finding refuge in Christ’s teachings might be the best hope.
Bugs,
Jesus Christ is more than a simple message of love your neighbor as yourself and love one another even as I have loved you. As central as those ideas may be to Christ’s teachings, they are contextually indivisible from Israel.
Jesus Christ is the King of Israel. God has chosen Israel and He has chosen Jesus Christ. The Messiah is sent, “only to the lost sheep of Israel” Mt 15 One does not leave Israel to find the Messiah.
That’s dogma.
Congratulaitons, William Abbot, you have just revived the concept of Gods Casino for which odds increase for certain favored people blessed with the good luck to be born at just the right time. The rest are losers, no luck. I understand the theology of your construct, but it reduces “God” to the ultimate poker dealer who favors his buds. You have to feel good about your lucky position at the Holy Craps Salvation table.
Bugs, you are quite the contortionist. Who else could turn the Doctrine of Election into a game of chance?
I am always amazed about the misinformation of most when speaking of Jesus as teaching solely the law of love to God and love to man, as if He had forgotten or destroyed the 10 commandments..(something he himself admitted he was not to do, in Mat 5:17-18)
What they fail to realize is that the law of love to God and love to man, is not solely a New Testament teaching by Jesus but Jesus in fact was quoting these “love commandments” from the OT writing themselves, writings which acknowledge the 10 commandments, the law of God as summarized by the law of love to God and men…as binding..
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Deu 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
Lev 19:18 …but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
The truth is that doctrines do matter, the law of God is define as love to God and to man…even from OT times.
The 10 commandments are binding…and the church that rejects the 4th commandment(the 7th day as the sabbath of the Lord) are in fact rejecting the truth…failing to love God…because love to God means to keep his commandments…
Bugs/Larry Boshell on September 30, 2015 at 9:59 am said:
Birds of a Feather
Bugs…you wrote
>>Catholicism and Adventism share the same negation of Christ’s teachings. Why? Because that’s what institutions do. They can’t help themselves. Codifying their raison D’ etre requires a massive structure of doctrines that have nothing to do with Christ’s teachings.
You are wrong in including the SDA church in your observation above. The teachings of the SDA church are biblical…Christ as the God of the OT and NT does not contradict Himself…
and all the doctrines of the SDAs are biblically based despite your negation of that fact…
you also wrote>>>Catholics venerate Mary, Adventists venerate Ellen (a Prophet). Catholics claim the magic of transubstantiation, Adventists the magic of the “prophecies.”
It is not true what you say above that SDAs venerate EGW, we do not have images of her, bow before her or think of her as god.
We do not claim the magic of prophecies…that is your own invention…no SDA ever says so. The truth is that prophecies defend themselves…explain themselves for those that are listening…
perhaps you are not listening!
“Christs teachings are very simple. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love each other as I have loved you.”
You skipped the one He called the greatest commandment – Love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
Jim, your additional quote buttresses my proposition (probably not your intention)! When you love your neighbor as yourself, when you do unto others what you wish to receive, then you love God with all your heart and mind and soul. Love is the only operative evidence of God. It’s an experience that entangles us with each other simultaneously along with the divine without the necessity, function or interpretation of language.
Adventism thrives on the complexity of theology and dogma. I’m convinced it attracts minds who enjoy its convolutions and wouldn’t be SDA without it. Simplify, simplify, simplify, is anathema to these inbred theologicrats.
It may simply be that our mental proclivities are an unadjustable feature of our DNA so that multiple religious options have been created to meet the needs of our heredity. Maybe we can’t help ourselves!
So I drag my “Simplify” banner behind my unique pedal powered airplane over a sea of bowed, studious heads expecting no joyful salutes. Except for an occasional “finger signal” (peace) signaled at my flight, nothing from earth interrupts my reverie! At least you looked up!
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
We cannot truly love God or others until we experience love ourselves. And we experience both the love of God and the love of others, through interactions with them.
God comes to us in many ways, most of them involving other humans. That is the way God usually (though not exclusively) chooses to do things.
So which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
While engaged in performing weddings a few years ago I often gave credit to parents by pointing out that their love for the bride and groom enabled and empowered them to love each other. “To love, you must first be loved.”
“(probably not your intention)” ?
My intention is to keep the record clear regarding what Jesus said. On these two commandments depend the entire law. You cannot separate them. But Jesus did prioritize them.
My dear Brother Bugs-Bunny Boshell, you are not far from the Kingdom.
Really?
Having digested all of the above I wish to state the following: Nini Ram is absolutely correct in her understanding of this past week Papal visit, especially the U.N Agenda. ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, WITHIN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Daniel is always inspired by the HOLY spirit of GOD, as is William. Elaine has stated more than once, the GOLDEN RULE should be our
daily observance, and Larry (INSECTS, ugh) LOVE IS ALL
THAT MATTERS. As Nini says, keep your eyes on the U.N.
The “babble” of every organized church is a cacophfony
Having digested all of the above I wish to state the following: Nini Ram is absolutely correct in her understanding of this past week Papal visit, especially the U.N Agenda. ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, WITHIN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Daniel is always inspired by the HOLY spirit of GOD, as is William. Elaine has stated more than once, the GOLDEN RULE should be our
daily observance, and Larry (INSECTS, ugh) LOVE IS ALL
THAT MATTERS. As Nini says, keep your eyes on the U.N.
The “babble” of every organized church is a cacophony
of noises loud enough to wake up the devil to paraphrase Ervin.
Earl,
“Nini Ram is absolutely correct in her understanding of this past week Papal visit, especially the U.N Agenda.” I would agree, only I don’t follow the U.N. Agenda and therefore have no idea what she is talking about.
“Daniel is always inspired by the HOLY spirit of GOD”. No, I didn’t claim that. But, I do hope I am. However, on the other hand, the way you write, sometimes, indicates that you might be.
“As Nini says, keep your eyes on the U.N.”. No, keep your eyes on Jesus Christ.
However; great observations, Earl.
Peace, my friend.
I see that some of our co-discussants are shouting again–in capital letters. I wonder if it might be helpful to discontinue the practice in the interest of advancing calm discussion.
Having read most of the above (as much as I could stomach), I conclude that Satan is accomplishing exactly what he desires. Both the Pope’s fans and his detractors are turning their eyes away from Jesus by focusing so much attention on the Pope. Satan is the master of confusion and deception. And he is having a filed day here and now, both in the public media and also in the various religious media including this web site.
And I think that Dr Paulien, by avoiding direct responses to questions about the current political events, was doing absolutely the right thing. His greatest book on The Revelation of Jesus Christ is called The Deep Things of Jesus. I like that title because it focuses on the hero of Revelation, rather than on its villains.
In contrast, it seems that many of the commenters here think this book is The Revelation of the Anti-Christ.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. The most certain way to be overcome by evil is to be obsessed with evil. The most certain way to overcome evil is to focus on Jesus Christ.
Jim,
Thank you for responding with one of the most reasonable comments on here. I couldn’t read them all either. Some are so far out and others sound evil. How to get more rational commentators? If we don’t get better ones, many of us will give up this as a waste of time.
My apologies to Dr Paulien and to God 8-). Dr Paulien’s magnum opus on Revelation is actually titled The Deep Things of God.
Sometimes I get God and Jesus confused. They are so much alike it can be hard to tell them apart.
I will never forget working on a prominant evangelist’s campaign who presented the traditional view of how many SDA’s have/had seen the Catholic Church. I was visiting an older lady, a Catholic convert from the Baptist church who really enjoyed the meetings, but after she heard the presentation on the papacy, said to me with tears in her eyes, “I have never seen so much hate against my church as expressed during that meeting.” She kindly asked me to stop visiting her… Three other interests that I had been visiting with and studying with also dropped out… As a young intern I had no one to go to because I was viewed as having lost what was referred to as the “Strong Interests…”
So much damamge has been done and I really appreciated hearing Dr Pauline’s approach to dealing with our belief’s pertaining to those who do not see things the same way we do…
I agree with this one hundred percent. I have seen people get up and leave when this antiCatholic segment is presented in the so-called Prophecy Seminars. Amazing Facts was one that gets into too many churches.
The history of the main Christian church for centuries is certainly one of persecution. Yet, it was the major representative of Christianity and many in it did not know or support what was happening but were faithful individuals (like St. Francis, Julia or Norwich, etc.) Most of us can date our ancestory back to the Catholic church–the only “church” at the time.
Knowledge has been increased. I don’t have time to go over EGW quotes, but know our founder said not to cause a time of trouble beforehand, to treat Catholics kindly, and a time would come when we couldn’t talk like this. That time has come!
Other churches have and do persecute other believers. If Muslims had been around, we may have heard the same thing.
I put every religious system that denies freedom and unites church and state as the beast of revelation and the image of the beast (which is the real culprit). If the papal system was once the beast–it will be replaced by the image of the beast which could be everything from Islam, Isis, to fundamentalist Christians. Since Paul talks about antiChrists (plural) there have been more than one down through history. Communism, Nazism, and all sorts of isms are in this category.
It is a misrepresentation to say that, in the 19th century, “Catholic bashing” was a way to represent the SdA organization “in contrast” with other Christian bodies.
In the 19th century almost all of the adventists’ neighbors wereprotestant. It was because protestants had been taught to abhor the papacy that adventist evangelists developed a methodology that started with a point of agreement, namely, that we abhor the papacy too.
The whole point was that if protestants had rejected some of the doctrines of the Roman Church, they should be consistent and reject all of the other aspects of Roman Doctrine that weren’t biblical.
The SdA evangelists of the 19th century didn’t begin a series of meetings by saying that protestants were daughters of the great whore but many people who attended the meetings got that impression. Thus the perception among some SdAs today that the advent movement isn’t protestant.
I agree that protestants should be willing to continue their journey away from the papal system but an essential feature of that system is the notion that an organization of the church IS the church. The need to abandon that thinking is part of the need to distance ourselves from the papal system.
SdAs may have taken steps that other protestants haven’t yet taken but that doesn’t mean SdAs are better Christians than they are.
In the 19th century–a time when a post-millennial kingdom of God was being vigorously promoted by some people in the U.S.–the focus of the advent movement was the nature of the kingdom and the nature of the king. Before the creation of the SdA denomination, to be an adventist meant to focus on the doctrine that, when Jesus returns, it will not be to create an earthly kingdom but to transport the church to an heavenly kingdom. “The church”, in that context, was not a reference to the SdA organization. There wasn’t one!
People who promote that same message about the nature of the kingdom and the nature of the king are still part of the advent movement. Today, an adventist view of prophecy is an alternative to a futurist interpretation that encourages people to anticipate a millennial kingdom of God but still an earthly one.
I wonder how many people who still subscribe to an adventist concept of the nature of the kingdom are, each in his own way, promoting it–but without implying that Christianity is an institutional religion.
If anybody on this thread is doing that, what can you tell us about HOW you do it?
Even more than we need to be reminded that institutional religion is inimical to true Christianity, we need to be encouraged by hearing about ways to encourage PERSONAL religion, PERSONAL Bible study and “the message” of the advent movement in that context.
Thanks.
Roger,
One individual–and there were others–was Richard Foster who encouraged personal faith. There was/is a whole department that tries to do this at Andrews. Once referred to as “spiritual formation” (if I have the term right?), they were forced to change the name due to people in high places who opposed any sort of “spiritual” discipline. Part of this came from uneducated (in theology,etc) who superstitiously believe in conspiracy theories and new age influence.
It’s very difficult for Adventists to accept guidance from any other religious source outside themselves!
EM,
Maybe it is because I don’t know how to navigate the SdA Theological Seminary website but I don’t see a listing for Richard Foster.
If you agree with me that Christianity is a personal (not an institutional) religion, how do you, personally, explain that distinction? How do you explain your personal concept of the value (if any) of church organization? How do you relate to the tendency of some SdAs to treat the list of “Fundamental Beliefs” as a creed,i.e. as a measure of a person’s orthodoxy? How do you deal with the tendency to think that the only true Christians are those who are already SdA and those who will become SdA before Jesus returns?
Richard Foster is not SDA but over the years has led out in conferences and retreats to practice and teach spiritual disciplines. He has several books and is popular as a speaker.
Institutions exist to bring organization to like-minded believers. They do not bring personal salvation. They continue without much change in order to perpetuate their existance, leadership power, etc. and can sink into a self-serving layer of heirarchy.
False personal religion can do the same, even unknowingly. It can be self-serving as well and true faith may even begin that way. It is individual.
I don’t see the 28 as a creed myself, but relate to it as a guideline but not absolute.
I don’t relate to people who believe only those of their religion will be saved–it isn’t even taught. I think these persons are absolutists and usually with an unpleasant mindset who must be right. Close to bigots I would say. It’s not even a logistic possibility in this world.
Ironically, a recent column in Spectrum titled “Antichrist Fever” took the position that the Adventist interpretation of Revelation 13 is wrong. The writer recommends Paulien as further reading and uses the contextualist interpretation methodology for Revelation that Paulien promotes in the cited book.
It would seem that there is a misunderstanding here of some nature. It would seem an unusual methodology that could create contradictory conclusions.
Would a theological methodology “create contradictory conclusions”? A good theological methodology would do that since the nature of our theology (literally, the study of God) does indeed create contradictory conclusions since we are talking about humans studying something (God) which they know very little, if anything, about–although many people think they do, as evidenced by many comments on this site.
So one would perhaps conclude that truth is relative, and so both Paulien and Andre Reis are correct even though one advocates that the papacy is antichrist and the other advocates that it is not.
If this is the test of a good theological methodolgy, then we should be universalists as there would me no religion in error then, and all religions are good and correct — whether or not they worship the same God; whether they are monotheistic or polytheistic; etc.
There would then be no error whatsoever as all things would be true and nothing false.
Ted and Ervin,
I believe prophecy was written in symbolic language so that no matter who or what we think answers to the specifications of a prophetic symbol we can be aware that other persons or entities might too. In the case of the two beasts of Revelation 13, no matter how certain we are about the identity of one, the second creates an “image” to the first. Let’s stick to principles of interpretation rather than trying to explain every symbol in detail.
I understand the prediction that the papacy will re-introduce the Inquisition and on a worldwide scale. I even had someone who told me he was a “Catholic” tell me the same thing a few years ago. He said the papacy is biding its time. When the time if “right”, it will promote laws, even in the U.S. to impose its religious prohibitions on everyone.
In the mean time, however, the principle of the primacy of scripture should be invoked instead of getting people to trust a modern prophet and then use one of her predictions as the last word on the subject. We can hold the classic protestant interpretation without applying it to individuals–even the current pope, whoever that might be.
No matter what our reservations about the papacy as an institution might be, if we aren’t willing to extend to individuals the benefit of any doubt about their personal motives, we don’t deserve for them to extend to us the same courtesy.
I
That prophecy was purposely written in code by “prophets” is such a fallacious argument. You who adore prophecy have no clue why the words are written as they were. Actually, if there is no clear, obvious meaning, there is no meaning, until contrived and pasted there by hopeful diviners. Reading chicken gizzards, bumps on heads, tarot cards, palms, are all united in the same league of wishful searchers for imaginary meaning.
To claim there are “principles of interpretation” is another way of saying of an agenda, “how do we get from here to there?” So the definition of “principles” is skewed into nothing but pure speculation. That’s what is done to verify a desired endpoint utilizing ultra-fuzzy cryptic babble.
Adventism is crippled, permanently, I fear, by its incessant focus on “prophecy.” Flawed at its conception by applying horoscopy based on D&R, after 140 years, reality still whizzes by bright people who continue to believe errors then are still true anyway.
The papacy has no interest or intention of raising Adventism to notice or importance by reviving ancient evils to fit a self-serving, insane, conspiracy theory. Adventism wished to be a big player in the world via “end times,” a contrived controversy. It wasn’t, it won’t be. Don’t you get it? Smart people have no reason to take defunct Adventist prophecies seriously. They weren’t true. And that is because “prophecy” is the soothsaying enterprise on which Adventism is founded.
Thanks, Roger. I appreciate your interlude.
The original point that I was making is that Paulien promotes a contextualist method. He agrees (according to this article) with the Adventist historicist interpretation of Revelation 13. Andre Reis in a recent Spectrum article uses Paulien’s method and disagrees with the Adventist interpretation.
So, the question becomes: Does Reis misunderstand the application of Paulien’s method, or does Paulien misunderstand the application of his own method?
How can they both be right when they have contradictory conclusions? How can the pope be both antichrist and on the side of Christ?
It would seem that by the teaching of Christ himself in Matthew 12:22-28, one cannot be simultaneously on the side of Christ and antichrist. Thus, at least one of these interpretations reported in these two journals must be wrong.
No Such Thing as Incorrect Prophecy Interpretation
It is impossible to be wrong about “prophecy.” It’s an opinion journey in quest of verifying a thesis. That being the case, opposite, opposing viewpoints can simultaneously be “right” and or “wrong.” It doesn’t matter. Prophecy is for entertainment value only as unwittingly illustrated by devotees who post “correct interpretations” and “faulty ones,” on this site, based on the same information.
If I might quote a statement attributed to Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens): “There is one true religion–many of them.”
If there is no such thing as an incorrect prophecy interpretation, then why would Moses, Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John warn us against false prophets?
Mark Twain was one of the best American humorists and his witty remarks are still enjoyed by millions. The ability to laugh at one’s self is a sign of maturity.
As an agnostic, he had much to write about religion. They are still are very relevant today:
“Religion consists of a set of things which the average man thinks he believes and wishes he was certain of.”
“A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he believes.”
As a Catholic, I must admit after watching Jon Paulien I have the udmost respect for him. He presented the adventist faith in an intelectual manner and whas very fair to the Catholic faith. He whas respectfull to my my faith something I don t see often with 7 day adventist. I had a very negative view about adventist cause most I meet are always bashing and saying things that just not true about Catholics. Thanks to Jon Paulien I actually know now in a fair way where adventist come from. I which more people would be adult about there faith and not always pointing fingers. I pray for this brother in Christ and which him the best
Thank you for your comments. My wish is that you will meet more Adventists whose love for God is supreme so they will truly love their neighbors.
A practicing member of the Roman Catholic faith is a member of our Sabbath morning study class on a weekly basis and we all benefit from his insights about a number of topics of relevance to everyone’s faith journal. We simply agree to disagree on a number of theological points. The important point is that we are not interested in seek to have him become a member of the Adventist faith (although we would certainly welcome him) and he certainly is not interested in us converting to the Roman Catholic faith (although I am reasonably certain that he would be glad if we did). We simply respect the decisions that everyone makes as to which denominational tradition one happens to belong to or wish to identify with. Although I respect those who hold a different opinion on this point, in my view, since all modern institutional churches are human creations, it matters little which particular faith tradition with whom one identifies or becomes a member or if one chooses not to affiliation with any existing church body.
We cannot expect others to respect our beliefs while we refuse to respect theirs. Respect breeds respect. Disrespect breeds disrespect.
One problem I see manifest on this web site is writers who do not respect the beliefs of those who differ from theirs.
Disrespect is not limited to any particular religious or political persuasion.
By this shall all humans know you are my disciples, that you exhibit love and respect for one another.
PLEASE – respecting someone else’s beliefs is NOT the same as agreeing with everything they believe. Too few people who like to engage in debate, take the trouble to understand and respect those who differ from them.
Ervin Taylor on October 4, 2015 at 12:56 pm said: “A practicing member of the Roman Catholic faith is a member of our Sabbath morning study class…” What a grat example for everyone to learn from.
What a wonderful gift you are giving to each other.We must respect each other. In order to do that, we must start by thinking or ourselves as a team. A team with lots of diversity and respect. Team members must learn and grow and get better, each and every day. Persons who respect their team members need to ensure that they are providing an open environment that enables people to learn and really listen, and grow constantly so that they can make a greater contribution tomorrow than they did today. Developing people on a daily basis is what effective churches do to “show respect.” Isn’t it about time we started to “show respect”? If we don’t respect our differences how will we ever respect each other?
What a terrible waste of humanity that would be.
Thank you for sharing this practical and inspiring story, Ervin!
Ted Robertson,
I confess to not having examined the specific doctrine in question but a couple of observations, if I may.
One is that sometimes what seems to be a disagreement with regard to doctrine is actually a difference in the WAY a doctrine is explained. Because I am interested in encouraging people to study their Bibles for themselves instead of simply adopting a creed (such as the list of “Fundamental Beliefs”) and particularly because I use language other than what is “traditional” among SdAs in explaining my beliefs I am sometimes accused of not being a “real Adventist”. It would be laughable if it weren’t so tragic that much of what appears on 3ABN seems to be people trying to reiterate what they have been taught without digging it out of their Bibles for themselves.
It is also true that some of what appears to be disagreement is actually enigma. For example: Is God sovereign or do we have free moral agency?
For hundreds of years, there have been Christians who have considered those doctrines to be mutually exclusive.
I consider the Day of Atonement to be a way of explaining that, while that question does present an enigma, both are true. God is sovereign and God honors our free moral agency–and will do so in perpetuity.
No theological system is entirely “right”. To suppose that everyone who disagrees with me is “wrong” would be evidence of spiritual pride.
HA HA, Hmmm. I notice Daniel has been lured into Larry(Bugs) web, just as I was 10,000 words ago. Larry is ok, because his heart is in the center of love, but, but, acknowledging his love as genuine, a fruit of the Spirit, he’ll be dragged kicking and screaming into the Earth made new!!! A person steeped in the Salvation philosophy has peace and comfort in this world, and if he or she never awake from endless sleep, they will never know it. The reason I am seconding NINI’S outlook toward the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, referred to as “NEW WORLD ORDER”, by the Pres’s BUSH family, both father and son, heading up the Skull & Crossbones, a fraternal club that worships Satan, while at YALE UNIV. The father, every few weeks, talking up the “NEW WORLD ORDER”, for the past 30 years; is because it is happening at this moment in time. The U.N. Agenda 2030 will start active programs beginning Jan 2015, and gain strength ASAP, in all 17 initial controls, and expect to complete complete government control of the world in just 15 years. You can ridicule and laugh at the few (not even considering Bible Prophecy) who are taking the leaders of the world seriously in their intent, having already signed off on this “AGENDA 2030”. Or you can wait unto the DIGITAL ONE WORLD CURRENCY arrives on our doorstep, to bail out all nations who have kited their National Curreny beyond the Cosmos.
Listening to the Adventist “experts”, I recall that Mrs. White had several run-ins with them. I wonder what her response would be to this speech, considering what she wrote in The Great Controversy about the papacy. What an insult. Tiptoeing around end-times prophecy and not wanting to be offensive is not what the book of Revelation tells us. But these issues will come to light and will be dealt with despite “experts” like Dr. Paulien. Seriously, Heaven help us.
While some SDAs think the pope is about to reclaim the throne of world rule, the reality appears to be vastly different. Here is an extended quote from a long article on the problems the pope is having just keeping his own church in one piece:
“Civil war has erupted at the top of the Catholic Church, with 13 cardinals, including Australia’s George Pell, warning the Pope in a letter that the church is in danger of collapsing like liberal Protestant churches in the modern era.
The cardinals say the threat of collapse has been accelerated by the “abandonment of key elements of Christian belief and practice in the name of pastoral adaptation’’.
As well as Cardinal Pell, the Vatican’s Secretary for the Economy, cardinals from Bologna, Toronto, New York, Galveston, Nairobi, Mexico, Utrecht, Durban and Caracas signed the letter, as well as other senior Vatican officials. These included Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, the church’s Prefect for Divine Worship, and German Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, the Prefect for Doctrine.
The row centres on the three-week Synod on the Family under way in Rome and being attended by about 300 delegates, mainly bishops, from around the world.
While the Pope encourages free debate, the cardinals’ move is courageous. Some analysts believe they have put their careers on the line in defence of church teaching on the indissolubility of marriage and the eucharist….” Cont
At the synod, one participant said “a little bit of smog or fog has entered the aura (auditorium)’’, a reference to Paul VI’s statement 50 years ago that “the smoke of Satan’’ had entered the church.
Late on Monday, veteran Vatican journalist Sandro Magister, a correspondent for Italian magazine l’Espresso, published a letter he said was sent to the Pope by the cardinals a week earlier, criticising the synod process.
The letter complained the process seemed “designed to facilitate predetermined results on important disputed questions’’. Several of the signatories, including Cardinal Pell, have also raised concerns inside the synod.
The leaking of the letter to Magister is significant. Francis’s press secretary, Frederico Lombardi, banned Magister, 72, from the Vatican press corps in July after he published an early leak of the Pope’s controversial green-Left encyclical, Luadato Si.
One point of contention is whether long-established rules should be changed to allow divorced and civilly remarried Catholics to receive communion. Such a change is being pushed by a group of German bishops led by Cardinal Walter Kasper, 82.
In a statement released after the leaking of the letter, a spokesman for Cardinal Pell said: “There is strong agreement in the synod on most points but obviously there is some disagreement because minority elements want to change the church’s teachings on the proper dispositions necessary for the reception of communion…” Cont
Obviously there is no possibility of change on this doctrine.” The spokesman also said private letters should remain private.
Critics of the synod process fear a subtle undermining of doctrine, leaving the bishops’ conferences of individual nations, or dioceses, to set their own rules on communion for remarried divorcees whose first marriages have not been annulled. Such an approach would draw the Catholic Church closer to liberal Protestantism, under which different rules apply in different regions and different countries.
The Pope, who will ultimately decide the issue, has not yet expressed a view.
Much of the synod discussion has been kept under wraps, but on Tuesday last week — the day after receiving the letter — the Pope made an unscheduled intervention, reportedly urging synod fathers not to indulge in a mentality that saw plots and conspiracy theories, which he said were “sociologically weak and spiritually unhelpful”.
Tensions over the synod have been building for a month since the Pope invited retired Belgian Cardinal Godfried Daneels, 82, to be one of his 45 personal appointees to the event. A fortnight ago, at the launch of his biography in Brussels, Cardinal Daneels boasted about his membership of the shadowy “St Gallen mafia’’, a group of cardinals opposed to Benedict XVI who met secretly in Switzerland before and during the German’s pontificate. The group favoured Argentinian Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio (Pope Francis) to lead the church, which…
And folks think SDA church is having problems with their issues……….. well, spare a thought for poor Francis. I don’t think world domination is quite what is keeping him awake at night right now.